Transcript
music
"Switchblade Comb" by Mobius VanChocStraw. A jaunty, jazzy tune reminiscent of the opening theme of a movie. Music continues at a lower volume as April introduces herself, and then it fades out.
april wolfe
Welcome to Switchblade Sisters, where women get together to slice and dice our favorite action and genre films. I'm film critic April Wolfe. Every week, I invite a new female filmmaker on—a writer, director, actor, or producer—and we talk in-depth about one of their fave genre films, maybe one that influenced their own work in some strange way, and today I'm very excited; I have two guests. We have writers, directors, producers, actors—all of those things—Jocelyn DeBoer and Dawn Luebbe. Hi!
crosstalk
Jocelyn DeBoer and Dawn Luebbe: Hi! [They laugh.]
dawn
We're so happy to be here! [Jocelyn laughs.] Thanks for having us!
jocelyn
Yeah! I'm Jocelyn.
dawn
And I'm Dawn.
april
Thank you for the distinguishing voice characteristics. I really appreciate that. [All three laugh.] For those of you guys who aren't as familiar with Jocelyn and Dawn's work, please let me give you an introduction. Jocelyn and Dawn are an award-winning writing and directing team based in Los Angeles. Both veteran performers at the Upright Citizens Brigade Theatre, Jocelyn and Dawn partnered in 2015 and formed Gulp Splash Productions. I don't know where that name—where did that name come from?
jocelyn
It's actually—[laughs]. We completely didn't mean to be naming a company when this name came about. We just, like—
dawn
No, it was a real hasty— [April laughs] —like, "We need to quickly create an LLC to make a short film," really random name, and then... We're stuck with it, I think? And we're not that happy about it. [April laughs.]
jocelyn
But the name comes from—so Dawn's husband is a—he's a real efficient man.
april
Yeah.
jocelyn
And he used to eat scrambled eggs for breakfast every day, and he hated how long it took to clean the pan. [Dawn confirms.] And then he discovered that he could hard boil eggs.
dawn
Yeah.
jocelyn
He's like, "I hard boil a dozen of them at a time, I put them in the fridge, and then in the morning I just gulp—splash!" Which means, like, the egg goes into his mouth and then into his stomach?
dawn
I think it splashes in the stomach?
jocelyn
[Laughing] Yes!
dawn
Yeah. Not a pleasant image at all. [April laughs.] But somehow that's our company name now. [Laughs.]
jocelyn
Yeah. So... Gulp Splash.
april
But it gives you a good idea what their first feature, Greener Grass, is gonna be, that premiered at 2019 Sundance Film Festival. They wrote, directed, and co-star in the film alongside Beck Bennett, Neil Casey, Mary Holland, and D’Arcy Carden, all from lovely shows in, you know, wonderful beloved things. SNL, Ghostbusters, Veep, and The Good Place. Greener Grass is a dark comedy based on their 2016 South by Southwest award-winning short film by the same name. Following its premier at the Clermont-Ferrand Film Festival in France, the Greener Grass short received a distribution deal with Canal+ _(plus)—_or should I say Canal Plu?
crosstalk
April: Canal— Jocelyn: Plu. April: Plu? Jocelyn: Yeah. Dawn: Plu.
april
In Europe and Africa. Jocelyn and Dawn recently directed two episodes of truTV’s Adam Ruins Everything. In 2017, they sold the television pilot to IFC. They have written and produced three short films, which have appeared in over 70 film festivals worldwide, and you've been to every single film festival, right?
dawn
[Laughing] Every one!
april
Every single one. They won Best Direction for their short The Arrival at Funcinema Críticas De Ci—De Cine in Argentina—I'm not very good at that.
dawn
That sounded...
april
That's close enough? Okay.
dawn
Good enough! [Jocelyn laughs.]
april
Alright. Okay. The Arrival also was named Best International Short Film at the Roma International Short Film Festival, Best Short Film in the Lounge Comedy Shorts Program at the Napa Valley Film Festival, Best Comedy at the Way Down Film Festival in Georgia, and received the Audience Award at the Chicago Critics Film Festival. Okay. So here's something that you guys didn't include in your bio that I'm real curious about, because neither of you put whether you're from the suburbs.
crosstalk
Jocelyn: Oh! We... Dawn: Ohhh...
jocelyn
I am from a suburb of Chicago called Barrington.
dawn
And I'm from Lincoln, Nebraska. Which, I don't think it's a suburb of a city. However— [all three laugh] —I would say there are—it has a very suburban feel.
april
It's like a suburb of a nation, as opposed to—
dawn
Yyyes. Yes. [April laughs.] There are no big cities nearby. [Chuckles.]
jocelyn
Are you from a suburb?
april
I'm not from a suburb. But I understand the suburbs. And I understand the suburbs through a movie that you guys chose to talk about today. [They laugh.] Which also has bearing on your film, and that is John Waters' Polyester. That's what we're gonna be talking about today.
jocelyn
Yaaay!
dawn
Yaaay. [She and Jocelyn laugh.]
april
Can you tell me a little bit about why you chose that film?
jocelyn
We love Polyester. [All three laugh.] [Dawn agrees.]
april
I can see—I can see that, after watching Greener Grass. I can see this.
jocelyn
Well, here's something that is going to surprise you. I—perhaps will surprise you. When we made Greener Grass, we had not seen Polyester. [Stifling laughter] And this blows our minds. [Dawn and April laugh, and Dawn agrees.] Now that we have seen it. It's a truly—you know, when we're on the film festival circuit, people will come up to us and be like, "Oh, your movie reminds us so much of this, so much of that," and it was John Waters that we were getting over and over again.
jocelyn
And we were both like, "Well, of course. We've seen Serial Mom and we've seen Hairspray." But neither one of us had seen the true, real—
april
Yeah.
jocelyn
—[laughing] classic John Waters films.
april
Yes!
jocelyn
And so it started—I got deathly ill with a cold [laughs] when we were in London recently, and I had to skip a film festival and stay home. And I was feeling so sad, and I just did a John Waters marathon, and I watched six John Waters movies underneath, like, my sickbed covers. [Laughs.]
april
[Sympathetic] Oh!
jocelyn
And Polyester was the first one I watched. And I called Dawn and I was like, [breathless] "This! I can't believe this exists!" [April laughs.] Like, "You have to watch this!" And she did, right away.
dawn
Yeah, I watched it the next day on a plane, and then again at home, because I was like, "I shouldn't see this good of a movie on an iPad." [Jocelyn and April laugh.] "I need to see it on a TV." And yeah, it—I—we both had the exact same reaction, which was sheer delight. And disgust, and wonder.
jocelyn
I couldn't believe how much I felt known. [April laughs.] [Laughing] Like, I couldn't believe—like, Dawn and I, we met performing on a sketch team at Upright Citizens Brigade. [April acknowledges.] And our sketch team really did a lot of these domestic, like, melodramatic sketches. Particularly because I think Dawn and I pitched, like, [laughing] 75% of them. [April laughs.] But it was—it's just so what we're interested in. Like, I think I've played characters like Lu-Lu—
crosstalk
Jocelyn: —so many times! Dawn: So much. Jocelyn: [Laughing] Like—
dawn
Jocelyn always is like, the defiant teenager that's like—yeah, a little—
jocelyn
[Laughs.] Yeah! And just, like, always dancing! It's—anyway. [Dawn laughs.] The similarities, we just were shocked. So this—yeah. So we're—we can't wait to talk about Polyester.
april
Yeah, and for those of you who haven't seen Polyester, today's episode will give you some spoilers, obviously, but that shouldn't stop you from listening before you watch. As always, my motto is that it's not what happens but how it happens that makes a movie worth watching. Still, if you would like to pause and watch Polyester first, I highly recommend. And by the time this episode comes out, there will be a Criterion of it, so there you go!
music
"Polyester (Title Song)," by Tab Hunter and Debbie Harry. Song plays during April's dialogue until the first clip.
april
And now that you're back, let's introduce Polyester. Written and directed by John Waters, Polyester stars Divine as Francis—Francine Fishpaw, an upper middle class housewife in a Baltimore suburb. Her husband Elmer is a tacky asshole who owns an adult theater in town, which draws a bunch of anti-pornography protesters to their quaint home.
clip
[People shouting in the background.] Francine: Elmer! Thank god you're home! Elmer: Get offa me! Why haven't you notified the press?! Think of the publicity! The theater will be packed tomorrow night! Francine: Oh, Elmer, please don't call the press! It's bad enough already. All the neighborhood women spit at me when I'm in the shopping mall!
april
Then she's got her brat daughter Lu-Lu, who we were just talking about, and her son Dexter, who derives pleasure from stomping on women's feet. Okay. And then there's her mother La Rue, who's always harping on Francine for being fat and for hanging out with their former cleaning lady, Cuddles, who inherited a fat chunk of cash.
clip
Francine: [Delighted] Oh, it's Cuddles! La Rue: Good lord, Francine! Don't you know it's bad luck to let r-tarded people in your home? Call me a cab this instant! Francine: But mother, she's my best friend! La Rue: Your best friend?! She was your cleaning lady, Francine! Are you that unpopular, that you seek out the social company of your maid?
april
But Cuddles is the only one who's actually team Francine. Francine discovers Elmer's been having an affair with his secretary, and confronts them.
clip
Francine: Well, I won't stand for this, Elmer. I want a divorce! And a big fat settlement to go along with it!
april
But it only makes her depressed. She drinks a bunch. Lu-Lu proclaims one day that she's getting an abortion, very happy about it.
clip
Francine: I'll never allow you to marry him. Lu-Lu: Marry him? Are you kidding? I'm getting an abortion, and I can't wait!
april
And Dexter's foot-stomping exploits have earned him the media nickname Baltimore Foot Stomper. So he's on the lam. Lu-Lu tries to get an abortion, but an anti-abortion protester prevents her.
clip
Protester 1: Don't have this abortion! Protester 2: How does it feel to be a murderer?! Protester 1: Killer! MURDERER! Protester 2: BABIES WANNA LIVE TOO, YOU KNOW!
april
And she tries to induce a miscarriage, but then Francine calls some Catholic nuns over to drag her off to a home for unwed mothers.
clip
[Fast pipe organ music and the sound of Lu-Lu shouting in the background as she struggles to do whatever it is she's doing.] Francine: This is Francine Fishpaw, 538 Wyman Way. I need an unwed mothers' home! My daughter is pregnant and trying to induce a miscarriage! Person on Phone: We'll be right there!
april
Lu-Lu's boyfriend Bo-Bo comes over with his friends to trash the Fishpaw house in revenge, but La Rue catches them. They shoot her, but La Rue's able to retrieve her gun and shoot Bo-Bo dead. Lu-Lu runs away from the nuns and finds Bo-Bo dead in her room, and tries to kill herself. Also, the family dog does successfully hang himself, leaving a suicide note behind. [Dawn and Jocelyn laugh.] Francine is in the dumps, but a curious thing happens. Dexter leaves prison a reformed man.
clip
[Gentle guitar music.] Dexter: [Overly earnest] I'm sorry for the grief I caused you. But I'm rehabilitated now! I had a wonderful drug counselor in prison, and I received psychiatric treatment!
april
And Lu-Lu has a miscarriage and rethinks her life's goals, becoming a peaceful flower child.
clip
[Gentle, whimsical music.] Lu-Lu: I've had a miscarriage! Dexter: That's awful— Lu-Lu: But I've discovered macramé! It's helped me find myself! I'm gentler now, and more creative!
april
And then Francine meets Todd Tomorrow.
clip
Todd: Why—why don't we take a ride in the country? Get away from all of this mess? I mean, it—it's a beautiful day, and I find you... quite attractive. Francine: [Breathing hard.] But I don't even know your name! Todd: It's Todd, honey. Francine: Todd? Todd: Todd Tomorrow.
april
All seems so wonderful and perfect, but Francine finds out Todd and La Rue are actually together, and are trying to drive Francine crazy so they can take her money.
clip
Francine: Not my mother! [Wails.]
april
Soon, Elmer and his secretary break into the Fishpaw house, with the intention of killing Francine and also taking her money. But Dexter and Lu-Lu thwart the attempt and kill both of them. Then, when Todd and La Rue are about to make their attempt, Cuddles pulls up and runs over both of them with her new husband. It's a happy ending for the remaining Fishpaw family.
jocelyn
[Laughing] That was so enjoyable.
dawn
[Laughing] Yes. I want you to explain every John Waters movie and— [Jocelyn agrees, laughing.] That was delightfully...
april
It's, uh, a lot of stuff happening! Uh—
dawn
It is! [All three laugh.]
april
Let's talk about a few bigger ideas. For one, John Waters has a—I would say not a warped sense of beauty, but like, a very kind of like, fine point sense of beauty for him. He said, "I first saw Divine and thought, 'Raw beauty.' To me, beauty is looks you can never forget. I've walked down the street with Divine and seen car accidents happen." And this is something where he, like—he really, you know—obviously, Divine, now deceased, but in this time period when they were working together, thought that Divine was just the most beautiful person alive.
crosstalk
Jocelyn: I feel like— April: And obviously wanted to highlight that.
jocelyn
I feel like I heard a fact that—do you know, I get all the movies confused now 'cause I watched them all at once. [April sympathizes.] But it's either Female Trouble or... is it—um, where Divine is like—
april
Is it Desperate Women, or—?
jocelyn
—walking down the—like, she's strutting down the street and everybody's like, turned their heads—
dawn
Oh, yeah!
jocelyn
—and looks at her? That was actual just—people on the street. [Dawn or April confirms.] And her walking down the street.
april
Yeah! And you know, that's what you get when you cast a star in your films. [Jocelyn and Dawn agree.] [Dreamily] That's Divine!
jocelyn
Divine is so fantastic in Polyester. I think it's gotta be her most beautiful acting performance. [Laughs.]
april
Yes! It is!
jocelyn
Yeah.
april
And there's actually a really interesting thing that was happening with this. I think, you know, we should probably put this in context. People who are John Waters fans know about Female Trouble— [Jocelyn acknowledges] —and about Desperate Living and you know, all these other movies that they had done together. Even like, the shorts, when she was like, playing Jackie Onassis in the car.
jocelyn
Mm-hm!
april
But this was the first time that, you know, Divine was doing any real acting, and so that was a very different role for her. And John Waters was saying, quote, "I think it would have been a real mistake for Divine to play the same role again. He'll end up as Charo if he does the same thing over and over. At first he was nervous, because he depended so much on that shock kind of thing. He was so used to that, knew how to do that. But I think once he got into it, he liked it because it was a challenge. I think he's really good. He's gotten good reviews. And many people who have seen the other films have no idea it's a man. When it was over, we told the man who mixed Polyester that it was a man, and he said, 'I am stunned.'"
crosstalk
Jocelyn & Dawn: Wooow! April: So people didn't even know.
april
Like, that was the thing, where he like, transcended gender. He transcended everything to just embody this character. [Jocelyn and Dawn agree.] And I thought that was a really lovely performance when I—when I think about it, you know?
jocelyn
Truly! [Dawn agrees.] Yeah. And I think the way John Waters directed that performance and—it just shows so much love, also, for that genre. [April agrees.] Like, those mid-century melodramas. Just—and it—of course you could look at this like, "Oh, he's making fun of it, this and that," but—
april
Yeah!
jocelyn
—there's so much passion for it.
april
Yeah!
jocelyn
And you really see that from both Divine, obviously, and—
april
I think we should talk a little bit about shock factor, too. 'Cause John Waters was talking about that in the—in, you know, that last quote that I read. And I mean, having seen his other films, you know, like, they're completely shocking, right? [They acknowledge.] So it's just—like, Pink Flamingos, like, eating shit! [Jocelyn or Dawn acknowledges.] You know? Like, whatever, you know, could get butts in the theaters that would make people feel revolted, that would—you know, just get anyone interested in it.
april
And this was obviously a movie where he wanted to add some subtlety to it. [Jocelyn agrees.] He said, quote, "I think you can shock people in ways that aren't so obvious. You can be a little more subtle about it. I didn't ask Tab Hunter for instance to like, do nudity or anything at all that might have embarrassed him. I just wanted to put him in a context that you would never in a million years expect Tab Hunter to be in. I don't think you expect to see a star from that era doing love scenes with Divine. So that's shock value, too, in a sense. I think you can shock people in ways that aren't quite so obvious. You can be a little more subtle about it."
april
He was wanting to do a movie that wouldn't require theaters to put sawdust on the ground because people were vomiting. [Dawn laughs quietly.] That was—
jocelyn
Yeah!
dawn
Yeah. One thing he does in Polyester in particular is shock in—on many different levels aside from just gross-out shock.
april
Mm-hm.
dawn
It's nuns taking pregnant teenagers on a hayride in the rain. [Jocelyn laughs quietly.] That is a shocking image, and— [April laughs] —so bizarre, but it's not—it's not gross. It doesn't involve bodily fluids.
jocelyn
Yeah.
dawn
Does it? No. [Laughs.]
jocelyn
No, I don't think—[laughs].
april
No, I don't think that one does.
dawn
But yeah, he—it—there's so much surprise from scene to scene that comes from a variety of places.
jocelyn
And I do think that this film, perhaps he does the—well, one of his best jobs of having the most eccentric things really connected to the plot. [April agrees.] And grounded in the heightened reality of the world.
april
Mm-hm.
jocelyn
And it—the movie comes off so polished in that way.
april
Yeah!
jocelyn
Which, you know, some of his others that are so gross and shocking don't. And I feel like that's something that Dawn and I have the conversation about when it's—when we're—we have these extreme things we wanna do, is that the most important thing to us is that it's grounded in the reality of our world, and that it's—we're not just doing something that's like, weird or bizarre just for weird's sake.
april
Mm-hm.
jocelyn
And that it truly has meaning behind it.
april
Yeah.
dawn
The—one of the first things that happens in our movie is Jocelyn's character, Jill, gives away her baby to my character, Lisa, as a gesture of politeness or because Lisa expresses how cute she is. [April cracks up.] And then of course, over the course of the movie, [all laughing] comes to regret that decision almost immediately.
sound effect
[Whoosh.]
clip
Lisa: Oh my gosh! I didn't even notice. You have a new baby. Jill: Oh, yeah! Isn't she cute? We wanted to try something new. Lisa: She's so cute. I love her. [They laugh good-naturedly.] [Beat.] Jill: Lisa, do you want her? Lisa: [Casually, as if discussing a sweater] Hm? No, I—I couldn't! She's your baby. Jill: Oh, Lisa! You can have her! She's great! Lisa: Are you sure? Jill: [Laughing] Yes, I'm sure! Take her. She's yours now.
sound effect
[Whoosh.]
dawn
But we didn't want that to just be this weird, random thing, because one, I think we were afraid people would like, not care about the protagonist.
april
Mm-hm.
dawn
Or even the antagonist, if that's, you know, how they behave. So it was important to us that that was grounded in a bigger theme of the movie that you feel right away, of this need to be polite and this awareness the characters have for those around them and fitting in exactly where they should. [April acknowledges.]
april
Yeah. It seems like it's important to establish that, really in your opening scene, to make sure that people are understanding what that world is.
jocelyn
Yes. That was a conversation we had a lot in the writing of it, because it is how we started the short film. And we initially were going to start the feature like that, and then we really were trying to examine it, and we were like, "Will people just turn—you know, turn away from Jill and not like her if we do this?" Etc. And then we ultimately were like, "We have to do it first." [April acknowledges.]
crosstalk
Jocelyn: It—you just need the audience to know what the movie is right away. [Laughs.] Dawn: Yeah. Or like— April: Yeah. They're like, "Oh, this is—" Dawn: "This is the world we're in." Jocelyn: Yeah! [She and Dawn laugh.]
april
"I see. Okay. Alright. That makes sense. Yeah." And you know, I would say obviously the same thing with John Waters. This—he's a filmmaker who doesn't waste any fucking time. [Dawn and Jocelyn agree.] He like, does not care to waste time.
music
"Switchblade Comb" begins fading in.
april
And we're gonna take a quick break. When we come back, I'm gonna get a little bit further into his philosophy of film being under 90 minutes. We'll be right back.
music
"Switchblade Comb" continues until the promo.
promo
Music: "Money Won't Pay," by bo en, feat. Augustus. Upbeat, cheerful music. Rachel McElroy: Hi, this is Rachel McElroy! Griffin McElroy: Hello, this is Griffin McElroy! Rachel: And this is Wonderful! Griffin: It's a podcast that we do as—uh, we ma—we are married— [Rachel laughs.] And... How's the ad going so far? 'Cause I think it's going very good. Rachel: [Laughs.] We talk about things we like every week on Wednesdays! Griffin: One time Rachel talked about pumpernickel bread. It was so tight; you cannot afford to miss her talking about this sweet brown bread. Rachel: We also talk about music, and poems, and... you know, weather!
promo
Griffin: There was one—weather? [Rachel laughs.] One time Rachel talked about "Baby Beluga," the song, for like 14 minutes, and it b—ooh, just really blew my hair back. [Rachel laughs.] Rachel: So check us out on MaximumFun.org. Griffin: It's a cool podcast with chill vibes. Amber is the color of our energy! Is what all the iTunes reviews say. Rachel: [Chuckles.] They will now! Music: [Fading out] You could end up on the street...
music
"Switchblade Comb" plays again, gradually fading out as April speaks.
april
Welcome back to Switchblade Sisters. I'm April Wolfe, and I'm joined today by Jocelyn DeBoer and Dawn Luebbe. And we are talking about Polyester. So editing the film Polyester, John Waters said, "When we put the film together according to how the original script was written, it was two hours. It's now 87 minutes. Everyone agreed on what parts to cut. I cut an hour out of Pink Flamingos, too. No movie should ever be more than 90 minutes." He said that quite a bit. [Jocelyn and Dawn laugh.] Or just, like—he's—his working philosophy when he's in that edit room is like, "Get this below 90," 'cause like, you gotta make your point, get in, and get out. What do you think of this? How do you guys work?
jocelyn
That—I didn't know John Waters said that, but I do love the way Polyester moves.
dawn
Yeah!
jocelyn
And I know—[laughing] our movie moves very fast. I think the longest scene is maybe two and a half minutes.
dawn
Yeah. There's I believe around 30 locations, and yeah, it just... We wanted to just like, bring people in, bring people out, keep it moving, and—
jocelyn
[April makes active listening noises as Jocelyn speaks.] We like, [stifling laughter] really would talk about the roller coaster ride when we were writing it. And we were like "We want them to strap in in the beginning, and then like, we just want to have them the whole time." [Laughing] And I think Dawn and I spent a couple years going to a lot of film festivals. Which we absolutely love. And watched just—I don't know, hundreds of short films, which is also a medium we absolutely love.
crosstalk
Jocelyn: But I wanna say part of that urgency came out of feeling like sometimes, [laughs] some films… [searches for words] aren't taking the audience along for a ride in the way that we want. April: Would you say they were boring? [Dawn and Jocelyn laugh.] April: Are they boring, are they— Dawn: Never, not one film we've ever seen. [Laughs.] April: Yeah. [Laughs.] Jocelyn: [Laughing] Perhaps I'd use the word "indulgent." [All three laugh.]
jocelyn
[Laughing] Yes. So it is something we were talking about. Just because we truly had to fight against Greener Grass being boring when we were writing. It was the conversation we had so often. Because it—the world is so heightened that it can be boring if you don't care about anything. [April and Dawn agree.] And if, like, the rules of the world don't make sense. So I think that was definitely a part of the reason we paced it the way that we did. [April acknowledges.] And then pacing is funny. This is something actually our editor Taylor said to us, is he had added up the running time of each scene and pointed out the ones that were longer, and he's like, "You develop a language with your audience based on how long the scenes are."
april
Mm-hm.
jocelyn
"And they can feel it like a heartbeat when they're watching it. And when you have some that just stick out, the audience really feels that because you've established that pace with them."
april
Mm-hm.
jocelyn
Which I thought was a good lesson for us, and... [April and Dawn agree.]
april
Does it—I mean, does that affect how you write? I mean, if you guys were trying to write maybe shorter scenes, multiple locations, you know, to keep it moving. Is that part of your process now?
jocelyn
Yeah!
dawn
Yeah. We very much, I think, write with the edit in mind and really think about the movie like an album and, you know, if this scene is more slow like a ballad, we want like, a punk piece in here.
april
Mm-hm.
dawn
Or yeah, I think we really think about the pacing and the order and...
jocelyn
That description exactly is something one of our directors at UCB, Michael DeLaney used to say about a sketch show, is to think of it like an album, [laughing] and we would talk about it in that way. [Dawn agrees.] Yeah.
dawn
I think, too, with our background in sketch, a number of the scenes kind of follow certain rules of sketch, where an unusual thing happens early on in the scene, and then it heightens and plays out, and then once you've kind of heightened that game or—to the point where it's kinda been the most fun, then get out and do—and go to another scene. [April acknowledges.]
april
Yeah. I would say—I mean, it's not like John Waters was necessarily doing sketch in his early careers, but you can see that he's developing the scene for all that the scene can do. You know?
jocelyn
Yeah!
april
What can you get out of this one scene? "Well, I guess that scene is done; let's go." Like, after the dog commits suicide— [Dawn and Jocelyn laugh] —you're like, "Well! Gotta go to what's next," you know? Like, there's—it's a—you know, it's a steam train of just, like, the locomotive just will not stop moving until Francine is dead or everyone else is. [Dawn and Jocelyn agree.] You know?
jocelyn
Yeah! That's exactly right.
dawn
I would argue the Alcoholics Anonymous scene is so much like a sketch. [Jocelyn and April agree emphatically.] You can so watch it on its own. There—the—[laughing] the way the other alcoholics bully Francine into admitting she's an alcoholic.
sound effect
[Whoosh.]
clip
Francine: I—I really don't know what to say. Crowd: [Shouting and jeering] SAY IT! SAY IT! SAY IT! Francine: My... My name is Francine Fishpaw. Crowd: [Impatiently] AND? AND? AND? Francine: AND I AM AN ALCOHOLIC! [Crowd cheers.]
sound effect
[Whoosh.]
april
That's—I mean, it's one of the things where you can—there's... His movies are so eminently quotable, I think, because he does kind of care about the minute details of things.
jocelyn
Oh—
april
You know, can a scene last on its—can it stand on its own? You know?
jocelyn
You know what's another sequence that's sketch-like? Is Bo-Bo and Lu-Lu hitting people with the broom. [Laughs.] So they literally hit like, one, two, and then the third is like, the—you know, Duck Duck Goose, so to speak. [April agrees.] And that's the awesome choir lady that hijacks a bus. [Dawn laughs, April cracks up.] [Stifling laughter] That bites a hole in Bo-Bo's tire and beats the shit out of him.
dawn
The moment that woman bites the tire and it deflates is maybe my favorite moment in cinema.
crosstalk
Dawn: Ever. [Laughs.] [April is cracking up.] Jocelyn: I think I screamed, yeah. Dawn: It's— Jocelyn: I truly think the first time I watched it, I texted you at like, right after that happened. It's so crazy. [Laughs.] Dawn: Yes. Jocelyn: Yeah. Dawn: Like, so shocking. Jocelyn: Yeah.
april
Were there any moments in your film that that called to mind, of like, what you guys were doing? Where you're like, "Oh, yeah! I see this!"
jocelyn
Maybe the best example of that is the scene—the photography scene. Where we—Lisa, [laughs] Dawn's character, asks—they're taking a family photo. And Dawn's character asks the photographer if they can do another setup where she's sitting in a chair. And basically, she wants to recreate the photo Jill has in her house. [April acknowledges.] Sitting on a chair with her babies, with her family behind her. And the photographer, who's played by one of the greatest sketch actors of our time, [laughing] John Milhiser, kind of looks around the room and realizes he doesn't have a chair, and is like, "Oh, it's okay. I can figure this out." And then he starts calling his wife into the room. [April laughs.] And she comes out in a wheelchair, and it's our friend Santina Muha, [stifling laughter] also an incredible actress, who does live her life in a wheelchair.
jocelyn
And just—basically, John and Santina's characters work out that they're going to give Santina's wheelchair to Lisa to sit in. [Dawn and April laugh.]
april
It's so awkward. [Laughing] It's so uncomfortable.
jocelyn
[Laughing] I've never explained that scene like that. Yeah, and that is a—we wrote that scene in one afternoon. We wrote it for Santina, and we knew in our guts that we were like, "This is so fucking funny." [April laughs.] Like, "It's just great." But like always, like, that little voice in your head is like, "Will this be offensive in any way? Is this, like—" You wanna make sure, like, everything is okay.
jocelyn
And you know, we slept on it, then I think we offered the part to Santina shortly after writing it, and she came back and she basically told us this is her favorite script that she's ever gotten— [April or Dawn chuckles] —because it was a character that's in a wheelchair where the joke is not the wheelchair.
april
Yeah.
jocelyn
Anyway, her reaction to it meant a lot to us. But that was like—I would say screening that with audiences, you can feel the tension in the room.
dawn
Yeah. And I think it—yeah, was really her excitement for it and her, like, [laughs] passion for the part that gave us confidence. Or a little more confidence that we're like, "This is good." [April acknowledges.] Like, or "This is—works."
jocelyn
Yeah.
april
Well, there's a—I mean, there's a kind of school of thought, people say that you—that a John Waters movie couldn't get made today. It can't explore, like, the same themes. But then I see Greener Grass and I'm like, "Well, I mean, can it?" Like, you know, maybe it's just a different thought process. Maybe something that has slightly more empathy towards it. And you know, I see a scene like the wheelchair scene and I'm like, "Wow, that's like, so offensively—but not offensive," and it provokes these different thoughts of, you know, what it means to be an other in a very different way than I think that we've been used to seeing with these shock movies.
jocelyn
It's true—I feel like John Waters has said that like, you know, one of his favorite kinds of laughs is when people are so uncomfortable they don't know whether or not they should be laughing. [April confirms, and then makes active listening noises as Jocelyn continues.] Dawn and I, from our very early days in sketch comedy, that—I feel like that was our sense of humor, also. And it's—and I think that's because—it goes back to the conversation kind of, of like, being bored, [laughs] and like, respecting your audiences. I think when I watch things, I—you can feel so numb so much of the time. And when you watch something that truly makes you feel uncomfortable, or shocked, that is my favorite viewing experience. [Dawn agrees.] And the—you know. That's—I think that's why John Waters just was so incredible to watch, [stifling laughter] those early movies, because he does go far past anything we're used to seeing now. [Laughs.]
crosstalk
April & Dawn: Yeah!
dawn
I heard him in an interview say "I don't care to watch feel-good movies. I feel good most of the time." [Jocelyn laughs.] "I wanna feel deeply uncomfortable." [Dawn also laughs.]
april
I wanna talk a little bit about social relevance. Or what John Waters thinks about social relevance. He says, "Being socially redeeming is so very boring." [Jocelyn and Dawn laugh.] "I'm just trying to make people laugh. It's the only reason I pick up a movie camera." [They laugh again.] I mean, he says that, but at the same time he also said in the same interview, "This movie is pro-abortion." [All three laugh.]
jocelyn
Didn't John Waters once say "I wish I was—I wish I was a woman so I could have an abortion"?
april
Yeah. [Dawn and Jocelyn laugh.] Yeah! So I mean, it—he's fucking with us, but like, he—there are things that he believes in. Whether or not at the time, like, in the eighties when he was like, doing these interviews, like, that he would deign to say that he believed in them. But there's social relevance all over this fuckin' movie.
jocelyn
Oh, yeah! [Dawn agrees.] It's undeniably a satire, but doing satirical humor—it's—that is the best way John Waters could get to the audience that he wanted to get. [April agrees.] The—like—I mean, I wonder if the people who would—uh, who would respond to the satire wouldn't go see the movie if they knew it was a satire.
april
Mm-hm!
jocelyn
You know? [April and Dawn agree.] That it's—humor's so great to get people in the chair and like, soothe them with laughter, and then be like, "See?! Don't you get it?" [All three laugh.]
april
"Here's my treatise."
jocelyn
Yes!
dawn
Yes! Yes.
april
We're gonna take a quick break. When we come back, we're gonna talk a little bit about, um...
music
"Switchblade Comb" begins fading in.
april
I gotta say filming in locations, 'cause I gotta know how people in the neighborhood of Greener Grass really felt about what you guys were doing. [Dawn and Jocelyn laugh.] And John Waters has some stories about that for Polyester, too. So we'll be right back.
music
"Switchblade Comb" continues until the promo.
promo
[Computer beeps.] Music: Funky electronic music. Adam Pranica: The Greatest Generation is a Star Trek podcast that de-stigmatizes the very idea of having a Star Trek podcast. Ben Harrison: [Laughs.] We're Ben and Adam, the hosts of The Greatest Generation, and the technology we've developed is that nobody knows what you're playing in your earbuds. Adam: You know, with legalization, it's easier than ever to find out what's in your buds. [Ben laughs.] But we suggest that you legally find The Greatest Generation wherever you download your podcasts.
promo
Ben: We'll send it to you in a discreet, unmarked package. [Both laugh.] And nobody has to know but us. Adam: That's The Greatest Generation. The Star Trek podcast that you didn't know you needed, yet makes you feel like you belong. [Computer beeps. Music fades out.]
music
"Switchblade Comb" plays again, gradually fading out as April speaks.
april
Welcome back to Switchblade Sisters! I'm April Wolfe, and I'm joined today by Dawn Luebbe and Jocelyn DeBoer. I thought I'd switch up your names a little bit. [They exclaim positively.] And we're talking about Polyester! So. I want to share a little anecdote that John Waters had from filming this. He said, quote, "Some of the neighbors where we rented the house weren't very pleased." [Dawn or Jocelyn laughs.] "Most of the neighbors were okay. They were in the film. One man got very uptight, however. Started a lawsuit." [Dawn or Jocelyn exclaims in surprise.]
april
"I was hiding in the cellar. The sheriff was looking for me. He probably thought we had moved into the house to make movie after movie. We had cranes up there at four in the morning, Divine was on the front lawn screaming, 'HELP! HELP!'" [Dawn and Jocelyn laugh.] "I don't blame him for being angry. I would have been probably very angry if it was me, except I would more likely enjoy the show business experiences. Let's just say he didn't seem excited by the whole show business experience. Eventually we made friends and everything was okay, but talk about relationships with neighbors." [Dawn and Jocelyn laugh.]
jocelyn
I can't believe they were allowed to film at four in the morning!
dawn
I know; I'm jealous! [Laughs.]
jocelyn
Yeah! [Laughs.]
april
Baltimore...
jocelyn
[Stifling laughter] Baltimore. [Dawn laughs.] Yeah, it's not easy to film in a fancy suburb.
dawn
Yeah. At night, especially.
jocelyn
Yeah.
dawn
It doesn't go—[stifling laughter] we changed a few scenes from night to day. 'Cause—
jocelyn
Yes.
dawn
Yeah.
april
I mean, that's—I mean, that's kinda fun, in a sense, because it does give the feeling in Greener Grass that everything is always sunshine.
jocelyn
Yes!
april
And that's terrifying.
jocelyn
Yes.
dawn
Yes.
jocelyn
Yes. That's right. But yeah, we shot our movie in a suburb of Atlanta, Georgia, called Peachtree City.
april
Mm-hm?
jocelyn
And we actually found it because our production company had another production shooting in Georgia, and they were trying to bundle us, basically. [April acknowledges.] To do them both, and we were like, "Well, we don't know about Georgia." We were looking in like, Augusta and Savannah. We were like "These are so location-specific. This needs to look like anywhere in America. We don't think we can do Georgia, but like, what is the town that your other film is shooting in?" And they were like "It's called Peachtree City," and we were like, "Okay." And we Googled it, and it said "Peachtree City, the golf cart capital of the world." [All laughing] And we were like, "Alright!"
dawn
"We're in!"
jocelyn
[Laughing] Yes! And then Dawn frantically called our producer.
dawn
Yeah. We called our producer and we're like, "Okay. Can you tell us, is the other movie about people that drive golf carts around, and you don't see cars?" [Jocelyn laughs.] And she's like, "No, it's about gun violence in schools." [Jocelyn and April laugh.] "You guys are good."
jocelyn
"Thank god!"
dawn
"Thank god!"
jocelyn
We were sure.
dawn
Yeah.
jocelyn
So we truly feel like Peachtree City fell into our laps. The houses were matching pastel. It was a planned community started in the fifties, with 100 miles of paved golf cart paths.
april
Oh my god!
jocelyn & dawn
Yes!
crosstalk
April: You couldn't have written a more perfect city for this movie! Jocelyn: No! No. Dawn: No. We—yeah.
dawn
We read the description on the website and saw pictures of golf carts driving through beautiful fall leaves and...
jocelyn
Yeah.
dawn
We were obsessed. [Laughs.]
jocelyn
Because it's a—people of all ages, too. [Dawn agrees.] It functions like a retirement community [laughs] because of the golf carts, but parents drop their kids off to school in them. The parking lot at the grocery store, etc.'s all golf carts. [Dawn confirms.]
april
'Cause I was wondering how you guys got all those fucking golf carts, but it turns out they just existed.
crosstalk
Jocelyn: [Laughing] They just existed! Dawn: Yeah!
dawn
We have a scene in a parking lot filled with golf carts, with hundreds of them, and that's just the high school parking lot.
jocelyn
During a school day. [Someone snorts.] There's—is it 600?
dawn
Yeah.
jocelyn
Golf carts every day at the school. [All three laugh.]
april
That's pretty intense. [Jocelyn agrees.] But very inspiring for a writer, I'd say. [Jocelyn and Dawn laugh.]
jocelyn
It really was! But the people of Peachtree City were, you know, very cooperative. Many of them are in the movie. And what we got a kick out of is several times people would kind of pull us aside, or you'd be like, in the craft services line and be like, "Your movie gets it so spot-on about Peachtree." [She and Dawn laugh.]
crosstalk
April: Oh, really?! Jocelyn: Yeah! Dawn: They were like, "The women of the community are like that." [Laughs.]
jocelyn
[Laughs.] Yes! But it's like, nobody thinks they're like that. [Everyone agrees emphatically at the same time.]
crosstalk
April: "They're like that." Jocelyn: Yes! Dawn: Yes. Jocelyn: Yes. Dawn: It's always the other people.
jocelyn
But we enjoyed that quite a bit. [Everyone laughs.]
april
I would love to talk a little bit about some—how you get people interested in making a movie like this; because Polyester for John Waters, it was one of the easier ones for him to get financed and also it was the most money that he had to deal with. He said, "New Line Cinema put in a lot of money for the first time. Michael White who did Rocky Horror Picture Show helped, and I raised $50,000 from friends. I think making it in Baltimore made it more economical. We had incredible cooperation from the mayor's office. $320,000 and I think we spent a couple hundred thousand on two million Odorama cards." [Dawn and Jocelyn laugh.]
dawn
[Laughing] I love that!
april
And he said that the Odorama cards are the thing that helped it—helped it get made. He said "It was just a joke, but it worked. It was firstly a gimmick to get money people to finance the movie. I got a lot of people interested because of that idea. You can watch the movie without the card, but the audiences really enjoy using the card, and I got the idea from seeing kids that have all these scratch and sniff books. I thought it would be interesting to have bad smells. Although the idea of Lickorama didn't work." [Dawn and Jocelyn laugh.]
crosstalk
[Much laughter throughout.] April: He—first one to do Lickorama! Jocelyn: Oh, that's so funny. Dawn: I think it's not too late for a Lickorama. April: I know! Jocelyn: No, yeah! Dawn: I want John Waters to make that now. April: Yeah. Jocelyn: Really!
crosstalk
April: But you know, he took some cues from kind of like the old filmmakers and movie house people— Dawn: It's William Castle, right? Jocelyn: Exact—yeah. April: It's William Castle. Dawn: Mm.
april
It's the same thing of just like, how do you get butts in the seats? [Dawn or Jocelyn agrees.] How do you have a gimmick that makes people wanna see it? And you know, that kind of chance that he was taking. [Stifling laughter] Did you guys ever feel like you had to do that kind of thing, like, to sell your movie? [Jocelyn or Dawn laughs.] Like, "Well, it's like this, and like that, AND—"
jocelyn
Oh, that's so funny. Well—mm...
dawn
I think—yeah! I think a little bit, because we had made a short film first.
april
Mm-hm.
dawn
[Laughing] That much to our delight and a little surprise, like, did very well on the festival circuit and won an award at South By, and it struck people. And I think, like, that made it a little bit easier to be—have confidence that this—people will respond to this kind of humor.
april
Mm-hm.
dawn
Because we had seen it with the short.
april
Yeah. I think a lot of people do try to turn to doing a short beforehand, because you do have to sell it, especially if you're trying to do something different. Obviously, Polyester was really fucking different. [Dawn agrees.] [Stifling laughter] No one was making movies like this. Still very rare that people do something like, so outlandish and so committed. [Dawn agrees.] But that was something where, you know, how do you get people to invest in you? Course, he also had, like, many movies that he made before, for like, ten grand apiece, you know? [They agree.] Convincing people that someone wants to see a really—like, a few weird-looking ladies, you know?
jocelyn
Right! Right? It's true!
april
Like, telling people that Edith Massey is a star. [Jocelyn or Dawn agrees.] You know? Like, how do—[laughs].
jocelyn
Right!
april
How do you convince, like, an executive at New Line to be like, "No, it's Edith Massey in mink stole." [She and Dawn laugh.]
jocelyn
Right! Exactly!
april
"These two!"
jocelyn
Yes!
dawn
Yes!
jocelyn
Yes!
dawn
If I worked at New Line, I would be ecstatic if that pitch came in.
jocelyn
[Laughing] Yeah!
april
Yes! I know!
dawn
But I don't work at New Line, unfortunately.
jocelyn
Oh no...
dawn
I guess we were in a very fortunate position, where we had a single patron that was a fan of our shorts.
april
Mm-hm.
dawn
That provided financing. So we were in a—in a position [laughs] where we luckily didn't have to convince a lot of investors to believe in us.
april
Yeah.
jocelyn
It's just—it is, like, very exciting to see the people who do respond to the movie. And I hope—you hear people so often now, talking about how, you know, cinema has gotten so bland and Marvel movies and etc.
april
Mm-hm.
jocelyn
That—I hope that financers and people do take risks on people—you know, like, young John Waters. [Laughs.] [Dawn agrees.] Because those—we need that. Comedy needs that. And people need that. [Laughs.]
dawn
Yeah! And it's been so kind of refreshing and nice, going to some of like, regional festivals and stuff with Greener Grass, because we'll find people in their 80s come up to us saying, "This is the only movie I've ever seen twice at the Cleveland Film Festival."
crosstalk
April: Oh, wow! Yes! Dawn: "And I've been coming for 40 years."
dawn
And people that I don't think we necessarily thought of as our target audience when we were writing it. And—and same with like, 13-year olds, and women in their 60s, and—
jocelyn
Like—
dawn
—men in their 20s. Like, it's just—it's striking so many demographics in a way that has been really exciting and—
jocelyn
My aunt is like, an Olympic-level figure skating coach, and she came and saw it at Sundance, and then now she has, like, all these figure skating people being like, "We—I need everyone to see it and [mumbles to indicate vague speech.]" I'm like—
april
Are you—[laughs].
jocelyn
"You want to show that to like, figure skating moms?" And she's like, "Yes! That's the perfect demographic!" So it's just that part is—we're just shocked by, and excited about. [April and Dawn agree.]
april
And there's—I think it also maybe has a little bit something to do with what we were talking about before, which is like, the kind of nervous laughter. [They agree.] 'Cause you know, John Waters saying "I don't do things so that people will get upset and start crying," and that's not your movie either. And he said, quote, "That's not the reaction I'm looking for. I do them, but try to make people laugh at them. Shock humor is making people laugh at things they would never laugh at if they were real. In a movie, they feel semi-safe laughing at it, but only semi-safe. They laugh and go, 'Oh god! How can I be laughing at this?' So mine is always a nervous laughter."
crosstalk
Dawn: Yeah! Jocelyn: Oh, I love that. April: And that's something I can see a little bit in both of those.
april
Where just like, "I don't know what these two women are going to do." There's also a murderer on the loose in your movie. [Dawn confirms.] And then you've got people trying to murder Francine in here. [Dawn or Jocelyn laughs.] Like—
jocelyn
These are so true!
april
They're dastardly, terrible, terrible things. [Jocelyn laughs.] But you feel—you feel comforted enough to laugh at them.
jocelyn
Yeah. The Foot Stomper is so awful to watch, but... why is that so funny? [All three laugh, and Dawn agrees.] The Baltimore Foot Stomper. It's true.
april
Well, I wanna thank you guys so much for coming and talking about Polyester and Greener Grass. And when will people be able to see Greener Grass?
jocelyn
Well, it's coming out in theaters and dropping online on October 18th! [Dawn confirms.] So, soon!
dawn
Yes!
april
Okay. So thank you so much for coming in. [Jocelyn laughs.] And we wish you all the luck.
music
"Switchblade Comb" begins fading in.
crosstalk
Dawn: [Happily] Ohhh! Jocelyn: Oh, thank you! We're so happy to be here! Dawn: Thank you! This is so much fun! Jocelyn: Yes! Dawn: Thank you!
april
And before we end the show, I just wanna give a special thank-you to Christine Zazula in Road Island, who was able to pull up a great book for me, John Waters: Interviews by James Egan. Or, edited by James Egan. Thank you so much, Christine. Very helpful in my research today. And thank you all for listening to Switchblade Sisters! If you like what you're hearing, please leave us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. If you do, we'll read it on-air. And if you wanna let us know what you think of the show, you can Tweet at us at @SwitchbladePod, or email us at switchbladesisters@maximumfun.org. And please check out our Facebook group. That's Facebook.com/groups/switchbladesisters. Our producer is Casey O'Brien, our senior producer is Laura Swisher, and this is a production of MaximumFun.org.
music
"Switchblade Comb" finishes.
clip
Francine: I want a divorce! And a big fat settlement to go along with it!
music
[A cheerful guitar chord.]
speaker 2
Comedy and culture.
speaker 3
Artist owned—
speaker 4
—audience supported.
About the show
Switchblade Sisters is a podcast providing deep cuts on genre flicks from a female perspective. Every week, screenwriter and former film critic April Wolfe sits down with a phenomenal female film-maker to slice-and-dice a classic genre movie – horror, exploitation, sci-fi and many others! Along the way, they cover craft, the state of the industry, how films get made, and more. Mothers, lock up your sons, the Switchblade Sisters are coming!
Follow @SwitchbladePod on Twitter and join the Switchblade Sisters Facebook group. Email them at switchbladesisters@maximumfun.org.
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