Transcript
music
"Switchblade Comb" by Mobius VanChocStraw. A jaunty, jazzy tune reminiscent of the opening theme of a movie. Music continues at a lower volume as April introduces herself and her guest, then fades out.
april wolfe
Welcome to Switchblade Sisters, where women get together to slice and dice our favorite action and genre films. I'm April Wolfe. Every week, I invite a new female filmmaker on—a writer, director, actor, or producer—and we talk in-depth about one of their fave genre films, perhaps one that influenced their own work in some strange way; and today I'm very excited to have actor Madeleine Arthur here. Hi, Madeleine!
madeleine arthur
Hi! Thank you so much for having me! This is really exciting! [Music fades out.]
april
Well, let me introduce you to our listeners! Madeleine is an American/Canadian actress who continues to impress critics and audiences alike through her work in television and film. She was born and raised in Vancouver, training for a long while to be a gymnast before acting called to her, which is... I mean, you're using your body, and—I mean, there's certain overlaps.
madeleine
They're—a little—they're both performative in certain ways.
april
Yeah! Right.
madeleine
For sure.
april
Her first credited role came in RL Stein's The Haunting Hour in 2011. From there, she had a small role in The Killing before jumping to a recurring role in the CW's The Tomorrow People. But it was her role playing Amy Adams' daughter in Tim Burton's Big Eyes that really broke her career. She then starred in the ABC thriller series The Family as young Willa Warren, daughter of Joan Allen, and earned roles thereafter in The X-Files, The Magicians, and DC Legends of Tomorrow before she got cast in a plum role as Christine in Netflix's smash hit To All the Boys I've Loved Before. So I'm sure... people have seen you, right? In that.
madeleine
I—[laughs].
april
There's a—
madeleine
Maybe. [Laughs.]
april
There's a large quotient of horror fans who also love—
madeleine
Who also love romantic comedies, yes.
april
Exactly, yes.
madeleine
Yes. [Laughs.]
april
It's a role that she's also officially set to reprise for the sequel. Now Madeleine is starring in Color Out of Space, opposite Nicolas Cage and Golden Globe nominee Joely Richardson, directed by Richard Stanley who is kind of making his comeback right now. The film is an adaptation of a Lovecraft story about a meteorite that strikes—or that wreaks havoc on a small town. And you'll be able to see Madeleine in TNT's Snowpiercer series coming up soon, too. I think that's premiering April, or March?
madeleine
I think it's in May, actually.
april
In May?
madeleine
Yeah.
april
Okay. Great. So May, and that I know has already been picked up for a season two, so... you're just busy. You've got a lot of things going on.
madeleine
Yes. This has been a spectacular year. I'm very grateful. It's been a wild, wild ride. [Laughs.]
april
Well, we're about to talk about another wild ride, because Madeleine, the movie that you chose to talk about today is Adaptation. Can you give us a little explanation on why this is one of your fave genre films?
madeleine
I chose Adaptation because I think it's one of the most unique films that I've ever seen. I think that it's so fascinating, all the layers that it plays with, and storylines, and is such a delight to watch. And I also think that it's one of Nic Cage's most brilliant performances, the idiosyncrasies that he gives to playing Charlie and Donald Kaufman. He plays twins in the movie. It's just—it's so genius.
april
For those of you who haven't seen Adaptation, today's episode will obviously give you some spoilers, but that shouldn't stop you from listening before you watch. As always, my motto is that it's not what happens but how it happens that makes a movie worth watching. Still, if you would like to pause and watch Adaptation first, this is your chance.
music
"The Evolution Of The Screenwriter" from Adaptation Original Motion Picture Soundtrack by Carter Burwell. Soft, eerie music that plays in the background as April speaks.
april
Now let me introduce Adaptation with a short synopsis. Written by Charlie Kaufman and directed by Spike Jonze for release in 2003, Adaptation tells the story of a fictionalized Charlie Kaufman, and his overly confident twin brother Donald Kaufman. Charlie is hired to adapt Susan Orlean's book The Orchid Thief, but he's struggling with an enormous sense of self-doubt, while carefree Donald crashes in his house and proclaims he's going to be a screenwriter. Just like Charlie! [Music stops.]
clip
Donald Kaufman: Hey, Charles, you'll be glad. I have a plan to get me out of your house pronto. Charlie Kaufman: A job is a plan. Is your plan a job? Donald: Drumroll, please! [Does a verbal drumroll.] I'm gonna be a screenwriter! Like you!
april
Charlie goes to New York to get insights from Susan, but is too nervous to speak to her. And then he gets news that Donald's dumb action thriller script is selling for a hefty sum.
clip
Marty Bowen: Um, listen, the other reason I called was The 3? It's just amazing! Charlie: I don't know what that is. Marty: Donald's script! Smart, edgy thriller. It's the best script I've read all year!
april
Which makes Charlie re-think everything he knows about writing, and he attends a Robert McKee writing seminar. Robert McKee is a real person, and he is played by Brian Cox in this movie. Charlie decides to enlist Donald to help him, and sends him to interview Susan instead. Donald, surprisingly, finds that Susan is being a little secretive with her answers, and something's not quite right.
clip
Donald: She's lying! Charlie: What do you mean? What happened? Donald: Nothing. She said everything right! [Objects are being moved around.] Donald: Too right! Charlie: Maybe they're too right because they're true. Did you embarrass me? Donald: People who answer questions too right are liars.
april
So the brothers decide to follow Susan as she goes down to Florida, meeting with John Laroche, the orchid thief. They witness Susan taking a rare orchid-based drug, and making love to Laroche. But Susan catches Charlie watching them.
clip
Susan Orlean: Are you gonna write about this in your screenplay? Charlie: I really don't know what this is. [A steady machine whirring stops.] Susan: He's lying!
april
And she decides he must be killed to protect Susan's reputation. Susan holds Charlie at gunpoint and drives him into the Everglades swamps, but Donald helps him escape. And they hide together until Laroche shoots Donald. However, they do escape in the car, and we think everything is going to be okay. But then they collide with a truck, and Donald dies. Laroche then chases Charlie into a swamp, but he's eaten by an alligator, and Charlie gets away. Susan is arrested, and Charlie returns home to finish his script, and—for the first time in his life—he feels hope.
clip
Music: Sweeping, hopeful. Charlie: Anyway, it's done. And that's something. So... Kaufman drives off from his encounter with Amelia, filled for the first time with hope.
april
It's hard to, uh, say that that's the movie. It is the plot points, of course, but there's so much...
madeleine
More to it. [Laughs.]
april
Yes. First off, we should talk about the fact that Nicolas Cage is playing a fictionalized version of Charlie Kaufman. And he's playing two versions of him, which is...
madeleine
Even more crazy.
april
Yeah.
madeleine
And wild, and so interesting to look at. And Donald Kaufman actually isn't a real person.
april
No. [April responds affirmatively multiple times as Madeleine continues.]
madeleine
He's just a completely fictionalized character. So Charlie Kaufman writing himself into his movie because he was struggling to adapt this book, and then having Nic play both of those characters. And you really see the subtleties between the two. And some of the most exciting scenes to me in the movie are when you see them in one room, and Nic's reacting to himself. And you completely see that these are two totally different people; they're polar opposites in so many ways. And I think it's just like a master class in acting! [Laughs.]
april
Yeah! And let me get into a little bit of what Nic Cage was doing to study up on this. He said "My impression of Charlie Kaufman is that he is a brilliant artist, and is very passionate about his craft and loaded with self-doubt and insecurities that compel him to dig a little deeper and free himself. I think he uses this pressure to build the character. I spent a lot of time with Charlie analyzing that. I interviewed him exhaustively. I think he was happy when that part of the process was over—" [Madeleine laughs quietly.] "—and I burned all the tapes out of respect for him. Sometimes we get into this paranoid place together, where he would come to the set and I'd see him scrutinizing me playing him, and I would get uncomfortable and wouldn't want to be there. And then I would take him to lunch or dinner and scrutinize him, and see what kind of moves I could get to put in the part, and he would suddenly take the menu and start flapping it under his arms like a chicken, and I'd think 'Are you messing with me to see if that would end up in the movie?'" Is that something that actors would strive to want to do, is play a character of someone who actually exists? Because I mean we see this in, you know, a lot of like, Academy Awards. We tend to give them to people who are, you know, playing real people.
madeleine
Yes.
april
And that's almost a tradition of, you know, the acting category. And I'm just curious about from an actor's perspective, of what that means. Like, is it something that you jump at the chance to do because there is someone who you can either sit down and talk with or listen to tapes of and kind of inform your character in that way? [April responds affirmatively multiple times as Madeleine speaks.]
madeleine
Oh, I mean, I think so. I think that it's... I mean, I played—I have actually had the opportunity to play a real-life character in Big Eyes, and I feel like it's this huge honor when you're channeling someone else's life and bringing it to the screen. And I think for an actor—and I think on a larger scale if you're copying someone with really specific mannerisms, I can only imagine that it would be a great challenge but also... usually these people—real-life people that are brought to the screen have these really special stories to be told. And I feel like you get to play with so many things if you're channeling someone real. You're playing with accent, you're playing with mannerisms, and I think it's also a huge responsibility when doing that. And so I think that's probably why actors are drawn to it, and as I said I feel like the stories—it's that truth is stranger than fiction, and that's why we see so many of these well-known people being portrayed in film.
april
And I have to say, also—I mean, there's a lot that we can talk about with Nic Cage in this movie.
madeleine
Yes. [Laughs.]
april
But he said, quote: "There's Donald and Charlie in these twin brothers, and there's me. Whatever part of myself I bring to this script. And when I see the film, I divorce myself from it. I don't really see myself. I don't know what I see. I don't see me. They don't look very good, either." [Both laugh.] "And he's so uncomfortable that it makes me uncomfortable. The scene in the diner when she serves him the key lime pie, I feel so uncomfortable for him, I want to hide under a table myself." I mean, there's—
madeleine
I'm—
april
It's hard to talk about acting and this kind of thing that you have to go through, but yeah, he's saying that he like—he's not himself. He is bringing himself—
madeleine
—himself to it.
april
But what does that mean?
madeleine
But there's still a disconnect, because he's so... I mean, when you're acting you're so connected in the character, and then... I feel like every actor has a different way of watching themselves on screen. I feel like I connect with the way that Nic says he is watching this other person on the screen who is him, but who isn't him.
april
Yeah.
madeleine
And I mean, that scene when he's in the diner is just—I felt—I mean he's so endearing, though, at the same time. [Laughs.]
april
Yeah.
madeleine
That your heart kind of breaks for him.
april
You know, there is—it's an interesting thing, too, watching that. Because if you've seen Charlie Kaufman—the real Charlie Kaufman—talk, Nic Cage isn't actually doing an impression of him. It's a really different—like, he's creating whole-cloth a new person.
madeleine
Yes.
april
Or two new people out of this, because there is a certain kind of—everyone—I think a lot of people love it when Nic Cage goes... Nic Cage. [Madeleine laughs.] You know, and he gets like, big, and like, he's not—
madeleine
And that's not one of those movies.
april
No, yeah. He's not afraid to go big, and I appreciate that in an actor.
madeleine
Yes.
april
But there is a kind of remarkable subtlety that he has in this movie that I think people don't often appreciate in what he's doing. But it's just like, even communicating in his eyes, of being uncomfortable, of being—endearing, is what you're saying. Like—
madeleine
Totally! I mean, even off the top of the movie, when it's just over black and all we hear is his voiceover and we're just plunged into his inner monologue. And I mean I think it's so relatable, 'cause we all have these moments—
april
Mm-hm.
madeleine
—where we're like "Why am I moving my hands like this?" And "Why am I looking like that?" and "Oh, why did I just say that?" It's—I feel like any—if you don't relate to that, wow, I'm—good—[laughing] good for you!
april
I know! There's so much to—I mean, you just brought up the voiceover and the inner monologue of this, and that's a huge part of this movie, and it's also meta in the sense that there's Robert McKee, the screenwriting teacher, is just like "You're a hack if you're doing—"
madeleine
Yes!
april
—the, you know, voiceover in a movie, and Charlie Kaufman is doing it to the hilt because—
madeleine
Exactly! And like, the deus ex machina at the end—[laughs]!
april
Yes! And I am a person who is—I don't love absolutism when it comes to art, because I think that you can make things work against the rules and you know, if you look at for instance, there's the Netflix show You, Sera Gamble's show You, and I think that that does a really great job with voiceover.
madeleine
Who's amazing, she's great. [Chuckles.]
april
She's so—I mean, she also came on the show, and it's funny, Sera Gamble—
madeleine
She's—
april
—she chose to do Being John Malkovich.
madeleine
No way! And she wrote—she's one of the creators of The Magicians, so—
april
Exactly.
madeleine
She's a very talented woman.
april
Very talented. So you guys chose the two Charlie Kaufman movies from your episodes.
madeleine
That's hilarious.
april
And I think that doing voiceover is something that you really have to find a great actor to do, because it seems like it's a different skill. And I was wondering if you had—you know, 'cause I'm sure that you're doing ADR, at least.
madeleine
Yes.
april
As an actor, which is I think probably a different kind of skill, too. Could you talk about that a little bit? Or you know, the challenges of that kind of thing?
madeleine
For sure! I mean I think with ADR, I feel like—[sighs]. I haven't done a ton of, like, voiceover itself where it's just voiceover over a scene.
april
Mm-hm.
madeleine
But with ADR, it's kind of—I always find you're kind of mimicking the movements and trying to get back into that zone, and also not totally going off base with your voice to match your face. [Laughs.]
april
[Laughs.] Yeah.
crosstalk
Madeleine: 'Cause that's never a good thing! April: Suddenly you've got a vibrato, you know, [wobbly voice] "AhHhHhH!" Madeleine: Yeah, suddenly you're like screaming or something, but your face is neutral. [Both laugh.] April: Yeah. Madeleine: That would be really bad.
madeleine
But with voiceover, I think that all of—even ADR, ADR... I mean, there are so many different parts to acting and the process of making a movie. Like, auditioning is totally different than when you're actually on set and working with other actors, and blocking, and hitting your marks. And then you have ADR which is a different skillset, and then I imagine voiceover—I'm trying to think now, have I done like a specific voiceover? I think I did like a video game thing, long—
april
Oh!
madeleine
[Stifles laughter.] Long, long ago! But it—that, too, is a different set, and it's kind of like your—like with podcasts. I—you have such a good podcast voice! [April laughs.] And I feel like that in itself is a skill that is, you know, pleasant and wonderful to listen to to the ears. I think they're all different parts of the—not to sound too crazy, but parts of the instrument, and...
april
Yeah. And you know, I'm curious too, like, for—okay. Obviously you were acting opposite Nic Cage in your most recent film.
madeleine
Yes. [Chuckles.]
april
And I know that Richard Stanley, he's working from a story that is strange. It's already Lovecraft. There is some dialogue that could, in the wrong hands, come off as clunky. But you really have to sell that this thing is happening. That this meteorite is, you know, kind of tearing the fabric apart. And I think, you know, the entire cast is up to the task to sell that dialogue. And I was wondering if you could talk about, you know, that process of being like "This is a little ridiculous, but we have to say this, and we have to make it real."
madeleine
Yes! I mean, I feel like something that Brendan Meyer who plays Benny in the movie, that we kind of talked about was—
april
Your brother.
madeleine
Who plays—yeah. He plays my brother in the movie. We kinda talked about when there's this big moment that happens with Joely and Julian's character—characters—and we kind of looked at it rather than this kind of... science fiction, hard to compute to your brain kind of—
april
Mm-hm.
madeleine
—kind of experience, and we looked at it more as if our mother like, had cancer, which is also something that she did have.
april
Mm-hm.
madeleine
That—before the movie begins. But looking at it as a kind of illness. And then also—
crosstalk
April: Because there are some very—things—effects, yeah. Madeleine: We—there were—'cause there are some crazy kind of things that happen, so like, things that you can use to ground it.
madeleine
[April responds affirmatively multiple times as Madeleine speaks.] And like, my thing when the like—with the like, pernicious approach of the Color, my whole thing is that I—my gut is really affected from the sound. So using your gut, that can help ground you, rather than just going "The sound is affecting me!" And Richard was really good about being like, "It makes you feel sick." So then that's something that we all can relate to, is when something makes us feel nauseous. And then also with the dialogue, as you were saying, there was a lot of room for improv. Richard was really open to improv, and Nic is, I mean, a class act at improv. So there was room to keep us on our toes, and to make sure that we found the footing with the dialogue so nothing ever felt, you know, completely out of this world. [Stifling laughter] The movie's out of this world, but the dialogue's not. [Both laugh.]
april
Like, "Oh, okay!" Grounding all of this in—
madeleine
Yes.
april
—in the same way that the meteor is grounded.
madeleine
I mean, it was hilarious every time we said "Alpacas." They're lovely animals, but it was like—it was—I love just when you get to like, say the alpaca lines. Those are so fun. [Laughs.]
april
It was— [Both laugh.] Yeah, because the family has alpacas.
madeleine
Yes.
april
And Nic Cage's character is constantly talking about how expensive they are, and how they need to be taken care of.
madeleine
Yes! [Laughs.]
crosstalk
April: And milking the alpacas. Madeleine: Milking the alpacas.
madeleine
That's a scene to look out for. I think it's absolutely hilarious. [Laughs.]
music
"Switchblade Comb" is fading in.
april
Yeah. It's a beautiful one. We're gonna take a quick break, and we're—when we come back, we're gonna talk a little bit about Spike Jonze and his kind of method of working with actors and approaching the story. And a little bit more Nic Cage talk, too, because there's a lot of process that is really fascinating. So we'll be right back. [Music continues at full volume and then fades out before the promo.]
promo
Music: Gentle, upbeat piano music. Helen Hong: Hey, J. Keith. J. Keith van Straaten: Hey, Helen! I hear you have a true/false quiz you want me to finish! Helen: I do! Here we begin: We host a trivia gameshow podcast on the MaxFun network called... Go Fact Yourself! J. Keith: True! Helen: Correct! The show is all about celebrity guests answering trivia questions about things J. Keith enjoys. J. Keith: False. We sometimes don't talk about baseball or cats. Helen: Thank god. It's questions about things they enjoy! Next, we bring on surprise experts every episode. J. Keith: True! Helen: Correct! Final question: It's just the two of us sitting alone with these guests.
promo
J. Keith: False. Helen: Correct! We have a live audience at the Angel City Brewery! [Audience cheers and claps.] Helen: See? [A bell dings.] Helen: You can hear Go Fact Yourself every first and third Friday of the month, and if you don't listen, you can go fact yourself! J. Keith: True! [Music finishes.]
music
"Switchblade Comb" fades in, then back out as April speaks.
april
Welcome back to Switchblade Sisters. I'm April Wolfe, and I'm joined today by Madeleine Arthur, and we're talking about Adaptation. [Music fades out.] So something I wanted to talk about was Chris Cooper, who is a really lovely and kind of authoritative actor who when you see him you're like "Oh god, that guy! I love him!"
madeleine
Yes. [Laughs.]
april
And he plays the orchid thief here in Adaptation. He had some interesting things to say about working with Spike Jonze, and I wanted to bring some of that up. He said, quote: "When I first met Spike at the audition, we came to an interesting conclusion that led to how we would shoot the scenes I was involved with. Usually when you go to the audition, you're lucky if you get two readings of a scene. And I went out on a limb and I said 'Please, please allow me to show you some interpretations.' I thought Laroche was wide open in every scene, and we tried five or six things, and we decided then how we would shoot the scenes, modulating between those in the audition." And I thought that was really lovely.
madeleine
Wow.
april
I mean first off, it's just like... you know—
madeleine
They both sound so lovely. [Laughs.]
april
Yeah! You know, because Chris Cooper, he's a professional. You know, that guy shows up and, you know, is automatically a presence on every screen.
madeleine
Yes. He has one of my favorite lines in the movie, too.
april
Oh, what's that?
madeleine
Which is—I just think the way he delivers it, it's like—it's iconic. When he's in the courtroom and he says—he's tell—talking all about the orchids, and he goes—
sound effect
[Whoosh.]
clip
Laroche: [Casually] I'm probably the smartest person I know.
sound effect
[Whoosh.]
madeleine
I mean, it's just so good.
april
Yeah.
madeleine
Anyways, yeah. [Laughs.]
april
He's so charismatic! But I love that Spike Jonze was open to just being like "Yeah, let's take the time—"
madeleine
Yes!
april
"—and we'll see if you can do it." I mean, maybe if it were another actor who weren't Chris Cooper, maybe he wouldn't have kind of given them like the benefit of just like, taking the time for that?
madeleine
And that collaboration.
april
Yeah, but I mean, I would kind of hope that you might. But it is really interesting. Audition processes are kind of grueling, I think, from the actors that I've spoken to, the ones that I've been involved in. The fact that you're kind of given a little piece of the script, and you get—sometimes you just have to tape it. And that's it. You just get one or two, and they're not gonna look at you after that. And it maybe doesn't help the process; you might overlook people who could be doing something different if they just—if you just gave them direction, you know, what you wanted. But I was curious if you could maybe illuminate us on some of those things.
madeleine
On the audition process! Well, I—
april
Did you have to audition for Color Out of Space?
madeleine
Actually this was a huge, huge honor, because I did not. So thank you to Danielle Aufiero and Amber Horn, the casting directors. [Laughs.] And everyone at Spectre, and Richard. But it was a—I received the script, and by the next day I knew I was going to Portugal, so that was a really—
april
Mm.
madeleine
I will be forever grateful for the rest of my life for that experience.
april
Yeah!
madeleine
And to forego the auditioning process, like we were talking about—I mean, I love self-tapes. I think that you kind of get to make them into your own little art piece, and you can send different takes, so if you have different ideas you don't have to go in and just have your one chance to show one.
april
Mm-hm.
madeleine
And—I mean, but also—
april
Do you just set up your iPhone and—or like—?
madeleine
I—well, it depends. If I'm traveling I have this great tripod. It weighs one pound, I can take it everywhere. And then sometimes I go and tape with a person as well, in a studio, because they just—they have the lighting, and it all works so well.
april
Mm-hm.
madeleine
But at the same time with self-tapes, sometimes you can zig when they want you to zag, so you might not quite—you can't get the direction that you get in the room.
april
Mm-hm.
madeleine
And then it depends when you go into the room. Some casting directors take so much time, and they'll let you try things different ways, and they'll play around with it and ask for input, or like, ask just to change even one line. And that's always just the dream when that happens.
april
Mm-hm.
madeleine
Because you really get the opportunity to work with the scenes, and work with the characters, because it's a giant master class, auditioning.
april
Mm-hm.
madeleine
Playing multiple different characters in a week, and I feel like you just—like, your skill keeps getting better and better. But then sometimes you go into an audition room and you understand because time's short, and you have one chance at the scene, and then that's what it is, and that's kind of the reality of it.
april
I mean, we should maybe talk about the fact that, uh, [chuckles] when Charlie Kaufman wrote this, it was like—he was doing it in secret. And Spike Jonze was talking about Ed Saxon, the man who had actually secured the rights for The Orchid Thief and who hired Charlie Kaufman, and who was just like, tapping his watch like—
madeleine
Yes! [Laughs.]
april
"Hey, when's the script gonna come?" And he got it, and so Jonze said "He was expecting an adaptation of The Orchid Thief, this book he'd already put a couple years of work into developing, seeking out a writer that would be appropriate for it, and trusting Charlie. Then all of a sudden he got this thing that was written by two people, with Charlie's quote-unquote 'brother' writing part of the movie, so I think Ed's first read through it, he didn't really read it. So he gave it to a friend of his and they said 'God, this is great!' And he read it a couple of days later, after sort of returning back to normal, and I think he realized 'This is incredible.'" But... wow! [Both laugh.] I mean, that's something though that I appreciate, that Ed Saxon actually gave it to someone else to read, and said like, "Maybe I don't have the clarity of thought or mind to know that this script by a fictitional person is... is good."
madeleine
Is—is good. Totally! Well, you hear so many times about scripts just getting passed on, 'cause they're read by one person.
april
Yeah.
madeleine
Or in the publishing books—publishing world as well. So to have the wherewithal to pass it on to someone else and realize that, I think it's—I think it's one of the best scripts that's been written. It's so playful, and just—it has so many different levels to it that I feel like—I've seen the movie a couple times now, and there aren't many movies that I go back and re-watch, [laughing] just because I have so many movies on my movie list!
april
Yeah, totally.
madeleine
But Adaptation is one of those that I'd go back and re-watch, because I feel like you glean something different from it every time, and there's just another aspect to it that you didn't see when you watched it before.
april
Mm-hm! And I think that, you know, it's a movie that I love the message, and there's—they—there's one thing that Charlie Kaufman knew how to do, and I think that he respected the work of Susan Orlean.
madeleine
Yes!
april
And so even though he was writing something different, he respected her and her work, and he knew when to put her lines from the book in it.
madeleine
Mm-hm.
april
And so there's one line from the book that he definitely had to have in there, and it was, quote, "I want to know how it feels to care about something passionately."
madeleine
It's beautiful.
april
And he was like "Okay, this is clearly what the book is about." And he, you know, found that kernel of what it's about, and then extrapolated that.
madeleine
Yes.
april
And I think that any movie that has some kind of drive to think about what is driving us, or what is driving another person, you know, that's obviously gonna have a kind of urgency to it.
madeleine
Absolutely. And I think that throughout the whole movie, he's kind of talking about how he wants it to be about the beauty of flowers.
april
Mm-hm.
madeleine
And I think that he succeeds in making it this beautiful movie about flowers, but also about human existence and life itself, and human behavior. And for the first three quarters of the movie kind of in this... not simple way at all, but just this very—I'm gonna use the word beautiful again— [Both laugh.]
crosstalk
April: Sometimes that's the only word! Madeleine: Sometimes it's all you can think of!
madeleine
But just in this very naturalistic way. And then towards the end, when you see it kind of take that turn after he goes to Robert McKee's thing, and then kind of in a—in the most fantastical way goes against, I feel like, what his screenwriting stands for.
april
Mm-hm.
madeleine
But makes it this... this just incredible movie. [Chuckles.]
april
Yeah! He like turns—he turns his movie into a thriller, even as he's fighting these impulses that—
madeleine
Exactly!
april
—McKee and all these people are saying like, "Do a thriller!" You know, "Do a—do an action movie."
madeleine
Mm-hm.
april
And then he's just like, kind of embracing it but in the weirdest way.
madeleine
And like, you hear him say in the movie, like, "I don't want there to be a car chase!" And then four scenes later, there's like, a bit of a car chase. [Laughs.]
april
Yeah! But you know, like, it's essentially saying that like, you can't fight what life is handing to you.
madeleine
Yes!
april
You have to kind of submit to the process and submit to it, and that's, you know, kind of how he was approaching this story. We skipped over a little bit, but I am curious, you know, like, going back to Ed Saxon... Do you feel like there are times when you don't have the clarity of mind to read a script, and you need someone else to tell you if it's like—if it's good, or it's good for you?
madeleine
Ooh. I mean, I feel like... I'm so open to all types of stories, and genres, and scripts. And I don't think I've kind of come to that point yet.
april
Mm-hm.
madeleine
And I do—my mom is hugely supportive of me, and I love to have her read a lot of my scripts, and we work on things together.
april
Mm-hm.
madeleine
So it's always good to have someone else's voice and to have other insight into the script. And also sometimes working with an acting coach. But I feel like—
april
And I think people don't realize that actors throughout their lives work with acting coaches. It's not like "Oh, I'm the best, and this is what I am."
madeleine
"And now I don't need—" No! I think that a lot of actors still work with acting coaches. I don't all the time. I used to work with them all the—for all projects. But not so much anymore, but I still—I think it keeps—it's really important to have outside opinions and insight, and to challenge you, and challenge how you look at the work.
april
Mm-hm.
madeleine
And so you become a better actor, and you don't stagnate, and they help you grow and only get better. And there—yeah, there are a lot of actors that are really established and accomplished that I believe still work with coaches from time to time, I think for that reason.
april
Yeah. I mean, it's what Nic Cage is saying in these interviews, too, is just like, you have to kind of stretch yourself.
crosstalk
Madeleine: Yes. Well, otherwise you'll get bored— April: Or you will get bored and boring.
madeleine
Exactly! Exactly. And you know, two brains or three brains are mightier than one, so... [Laughs.] Use whatever you can! And one thing that I love about Nic is that he really draws inspiration from so many things in life. From movies, like, and there's this thing where he was—I read in his like, New York Times article, drawing from like reptiles or animals. Like, I just think it's really—it makes it a lot more... a lot more exciting. It brings I feel like a bigger vibrancy and energy to characters.
april
Do—I mean, does working with him, working with Joely Richardson, all these, you know, great actors—you're—you've done a lot. You're still young in your career. Does it make you kind of—does it expand your vision of what you could be doing? Or did it make you—did you try something new out with like, your newest projects? Or how are you—?
madeleine
I mean, I feel like I look up to them both so much, and all the actors I've worked with, and I try to learn, pick up things from them and learn through osmosis and take in all that they're doing, and with Nic I feel like... talking about kind of the bold choices that he makes, and things that you'd read on the page and you'd just never expect to see come to life. Like, you just would never think of that choice yourself. So it definitely kind of broadens your perspective and how you look at scenes. And there was this song—this isn't really necessarily bringing a specific kind of sensibility or sense to the work, [stifles laughter] but we learned this song from Nic on set one night when we were all getting... a little—I was getting like, kind of giddy, it was late at night, and—[laughs].
april
Mm-hm. Yeah.
madeleine
He taught us this song when you have to act that he came up with, and it goes like this. It goes [singing] "The camera's rolling, the lights are on, the director calls action, the director calls cut. Act, act, act! Everybody! Act, act, act!" And it's such a funny song— [Both laugh.] —and so upbeat, and it makes you smile and laugh, and it kind of like, resets you back to zero if you're feeling a little tired or something. So I actually—I did kind of—I didn't really do it out—like, fully out loud. I think I tried once and then I got a bit shy around my other actors on my other projects. [April cracks up, Madeleine stifles laughter.] They're like "What are you doing?!" [Laughs.]
april
Like, "Who is this woman?!"
madeleine
But like, in my head! Like, if it was a night shoot and I was like "This—like, I need to click into it or snap into it." I would think that in my head! Because I also had such a special and magical experience working with him, and with everyone, that it just brought me a lot of joy. And I—an acting teacher once said, like, "The best work comes from a place of joy, even if you're doing a sad scene."
april
Mm-hm.
madeleine
So I take that song with me. [Laughs.]
music
"Switchblade Comb" starts fading in.
april
That is a great place for us to take a break, 'cause when we come back we're gonna talk about Spike Jonze and enthusiasm on set. And so we'll be right back, and also I wanna get into some of Charlie Kaufman's best advice that he gave, and get your thoughts on that. We'll be right back. [Music continues at full volume and then fades out before the promo.]
promo
Music: Straightforward, thump-y electric bass guitar beat with light drums. Laurie: Hi. I am Laurie Kilmartin. Jackie: And I’m Jackie Kashian. Laurie: Together we host a podcast called: Jackie: The Jackie and Laurie Show. Laurie: Uh, we’re both stand-up comics. We recently met each other because women weren’t allowed to work together on the road or in gigs for a long, long time, and so... our friendship has been unfolding on this podcast for a couple years. Jackie constantly works the road; I write for Conan and then I work the road in between. Jackie: We do a lot of stand-up comedy, and so we celebrate stand-up— Laurie: Yes. Jackie: —and we also… bitch about it. Laurie: We keep it to an hour; we don’t have any guests. We somehow find enough to talk about every single week. So find us—you can subscribe to The Jackie and Laurie show at MaximumFun.org, or wherever you get your podcasts. Jackie: [Nonplussed] K, bye. [Music ends.]
music
"Switchblade Comb" fades in, then back out as April speaks.
april
Aaand welcome back to Switchblade Sisters. Again, I'm April Wolfe and I'm joined today Madeleine Arthur, and we're talking about Adaptation. [Music fades out.] So I mentioned before, enthusiasm. This is what Chris Cooper had said. He said, quote: "This is a 53-day shoot. My one word for Spike, and what I so needed every day to come to work, was his enthusiasm. His boyish quality and the joy to be on the set." So I think it's lovely that you also say that, and that that's what you're trying to infuse into your work days.
madeleine
Yes! And I mean, I feel like also Nic and Joely on Color Out of Space set that tone. They're both so passionate and happy to be there, and Nic is such a huge cinephile and would come to set with this enthusiasm for the scenes, and have all these ideas, and just be like "Are we making a movie! So what's happening?"
april
Mm-hm.
madeleine
And so to see an actor like that who's made so many movies, and been in the industry so long, and still be a massive, massive fan of filmmaking and film was just so wonderful. Wonderful to see that that spark is still completely there, and the passion.
april
Yeah. Meryl Streep had some great things to say, too. We haven't really gotten to her. But she said that essentially this movie felt like it had a feeling of a small film, even though it had big ambitions.
madeleine
Mm.
april
And that was something that drew her to working on it.
madeleine
Mm-hm.
april
She said, quote: "Spike Jonze and his cinematographer would come to work in little suits and ties, like Hitchcock and his guy." [Madeleine laughs.] "There was a lot of whimsy. You could misconstrue it as something non-serious, but I have rarely worked with a director so beautifully prepared. This is an enormous movie to make on not a big budget. The leanness and economy with which he drove the day, but with an effortless feel that made it fun. You can be involved in films where big heavy machinery is squashing everybody against the studio walls, and this is not that." And I thought that was lovely.
madeleine
Aw.
april
I didn't realize they came to set with like, little suits on! [Laughs.]
madeleine
Right?! That—this sounds just like the dream set! And how she says like, that dash of whimsy... I mean, that just sounds gorgeous, to have that—to have a director who seems to collaborative and...
april
Mm-hm.
madeleine
And passionate, and wearing a suit to set, and showing up, I feel like that's so fitting to the movie.
april
Oh, yeah. But then that's something to think and talk about, is the fact that, you know, your director is setting the tone. So how they show up on set—
madeleine
Yes!
april
—is actually going to kind of leak into the aura and consciousness of the actors and all the technicians and crew who are working on this movie.
madeleine
Yes! And like on Color Out of Space, our director Richard Stanley, how he showed up to set and is just a wealth of information regarding HP Lovecraft—
april
Mm-hm.
madeleine
—on which the movie—our movie is based on a short story by the same name. And how he's so into witchcraft and magic, and he kind of set that tone for this kind of... this mystical quality, as well as the location we were filming at. But definitely. And also the glee and passion from him! He was so passionate about the material.
april
Mm-hm.
madeleine
And before every action you could just hear the glee in his voice, or if you were not in that particular take you could see it. And to have someone like that, and when you get to work with people who have all just come together for something that they are truly putting their all into.
april
Mm-hm.
madeleine
Is the absolute best.
april
One thing I wanted to talk about too, with Meryl Streep, was the fact that everyone was like "Oh, why doesn't Nic Cage do these movies all the time?" With Adaptation.
madeleine
Mm. [Laughs quietly.]
april
And Meryl Streep had actually answered for him, and was just like "Well, you wait for something as a script. You know, they don't come every six months. I've been, you know—I've seen some pretty good ones, and this one just grabbed me by the throat, but you don't get them all the time." And I think he kinda felt like—it seemed like Nic Cage had to be a little bit defensive about that, 'cause people are like "Where'd you go, man?" 'Cause you know, he was doing action films—
madeleine
He hasn't gone anywhere! [Laughs.]
april
Yeah, and he's like "I don't think I went anywhere!"
madeleine
Yeah. [Laughs.]
april
"I think I did some of the best action films of the 1990s and early 2000s!"
madeleine
Mm-hm!
april
And I think that Meryl Streep is exactly correct in that, where it's just like—well, you're—you know, you're still depending upon the writers, you know? But as an actor, do you feel like there's any kind of ability—like, are you just kind of waiting? Are you trying to search things out? Like, how do you—what do you do, spending your time?
madeleine
Well, I would love to say that I have the luxury at this point in my career to wait for terrific scripts. But—[laughs]. But I feel like—
crosstalk
April: Just sitting at home drinking tea. Madeleine: Yeah, just sitting at home drinking tea! April: Refreshing the email. Madeleine: I mean hopefully one day, that would be the goal!
madeleine
To just be able to have the choice to carve out exactly the kind of career you want. But I think—I mean, right now, it is—obviously you'll get a script in sometimes where you just really connect with it, and the writing is so strong, and you're like "Oh, I just hope I get a callback on this, or I make it to that next step." And because—'cause it's true! Even when—in auditioning, not all scripts are created equally.
april
Mm-hm.
madeleine
But I do think that it's important to always realize the hard work that goes into each one of them. Just like when you see a movie and some people are like "Oh, I didn't like that movie," and it's like—well, I'm... really easy to please, actually. [April laughs.] I think I enjoy almost every movie.
crosstalk
Madeleine: And not just because I'm in the industry— April: Madeleine Arthur, the best critic. [Laughs.] Madeleine: Yeah! I would be an awful critic!
madeleine
But it's like, you know all the people on set that went into making it!
april
Yeah.
madeleine
And like, their heart was probably in the right place even if the final product was something iffy. [Stifling laughter] And so I appreciate every movie that's made.
april
Yeah! [Both laugh.] I mean, but that's something I think about, too! And I see like, you know, these great young actors, yourself included, that I just—I hope the scripts come. And I hope that the depth of the roles continue to exist. Because you know, I get worried when there might be a younger actor—specifically a female actor—who is maybe kind of getting shallower parts, or kinda gets to, like, be in the side, and...
madeleine
Mm-hm.
april
And what you're saying, you know, transformational. That would be kind of ideal, I would think, for a lot of these younger actors, and I'm not sure that those stories are always being told.
madeleine
No, I think maybe I have to write one. [Laughs.]
crosstalk
April: I read that you do write! Madeleine: I think more and more friends—oh, I've written some scenes.
madeleine
But I plan on writing full scripts. But I have a lot of female friends, and friends in general, who are writing their own material. And I've been so—my schedule's been so full this last year, I haven't really had—I mean, you can make time. You can always make time to do things, so there's no excuses, but I would like to start writing more.
april
[Jokingly] Yeah, Jesus! Come on! Get your act together, Madeleine! [Madeleine laughs.] So I wanted to bring up—this is a longer quote from Charlie Kaufman, and it's actually one that he had included in his speech at the BFI. And it—you know, it's something that I think about as a writer, when I'm making something. And I'm gonna read it to you, and then I'll just kinda get your thoughts on it as it—
madeleine
Okay.
april
—how it affects your career. He said, quote: "People all over the world spend countless hours of their lives being fed entertainment in the form of movies, TV shows, newspapers, YouTube videos. And it's ludicrous to believe this stuff doesn't alter our brains. It's also equally ludicrous to believe that at least this mass distraction and manipulation is not convenient for the people in charge. People are starving. They may not know it, but they're being fed mass-produced garbage." [Madeleine laughs.] "The packaging is colorful, and it's loud, but it's being produced in the same factories that make Pop-Tarts and iPads, by people sitting around saying 'What can we do to make people buy more of these?' And they're very good at their jobs. But that's what it is you're getting, because that's what they're making. They're selling you something, and the world is built on this now. Politics and government are built on this. Corporations are built on this. Interpersonal relationships are built on this. And we're starving, all of us. And we're killing each other, and we're hating each other, and we're calling each other liars and evil because it's all become marketing and we want to win. Because we're lonely and empty and scared, and we're led to believe winning will change all that. But there is no winning. What can be done? Say who you are. Really say it, in your life and your work. Tell someone out there who is lost, someone not yet born, someone who won't be born for 500 years. Your writing will be a record of your time. It can't help but be. But more importantly, if you're honest about who you are, you'll help that person be less lonely in their world. Because that person will recognize themselves in you, and that will give them hope. It's done so for me, and I have to keep re-discovering its profound importance in my life. Give that to the world, rather than selling something to the world." Do you find that you are at times caught up in the idea of like, "I must get a role" instead of, you know, thinking about, you know, "What is this in my future? What is this—what am I saying?" You know, where are you at in your process now?
madeleine
In my process now? No, I think that I've always been conscious of kind of "What am I saying?" And especially now I have a little bit more of the opportunity.
april
Yeah.
madeleine
And I think you always do. You always do have that opportunity. But sometimes it's... more difficult to have that—to be able to make those choices than other times. And I think that what I took from the first half of that quote is kind of "You are what you eat"?
april
Mm-hm.
madeleine
And I think that we should always be aware of why we're telling the story, and what message we're trying to send out. Because that's—is that not ultimately, at least in my opinion, kind of why we story-tell? Yes, as actors, one of the greatest joys is like, exploring human behavior and delving into these people that you don't meet every day, and are not yourself. But also the story as a whole.
april
Mm-hm.
madeleine
And why the world needs that story, in that specific moment.
april
I think that's a great place for us to wrap up, and I just want to thank you for coming, and I would love for you to tell people how they can see Color Out of Space.
music
"Switchblade Comb" starts fading in.
madeleine
You can see Color Out of Space starting tomorrow, Friday, January 24th, in theaters everywhere! Please try to go and see it in a theater. The visuals are so much more vivid on the big screen, and the score as well. So Friday, January 24th, Color Out of Space is in theaters near you! [Laughs.] Thank you so much for having me!
april
Thank you!
madeleine
This has been really fun.
april
And thank you for listening to Switchblade Sisters! If you like what you're hearing, please leave us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. VFD42 says: "This podcast feels really special. Gabriela Ledesma's episode instantly became one of my favorites. She has such an amazing story, and I loved hearing her talk about Psycho. I hope she comes back on soon. I am so glad this podcast exists, and that Maximum Fun exists. Everyone should subscribe." I... absolutely agree. [Stifles laughter.] If you want to let us know what you think of the show, you can Tweet at us at @SwitchbladePod, or email us at switchbladesisters@maximumfun.org. And please check out our Facebook group, that's Facebook.com/groups/switchbladesisters. Our producer is Casey O'Brien, our senior producer is Laura Swisher, and this is a production of MaximumFun.org. [Music finishes.]
clip
Laroche: Probably the smartest person I know.
music
A cheerful guitar chord.
speaker 2
Comedy and culture.
speaker 3
Artist owned—
speaker 4
—audience supported.
About the show
Switchblade Sisters is a podcast providing deep cuts on genre flicks from a female perspective. Every week, screenwriter and former film critic April Wolfe sits down with a phenomenal female film-maker to slice-and-dice a classic genre movie – horror, exploitation, sci-fi and many others! Along the way, they cover craft, the state of the industry, how films get made, and more. Mothers, lock up your sons, the Switchblade Sisters are coming!
Follow @SwitchbladePod on Twitter and join the Switchblade Sisters Facebook group. Email them at switchbladesisters@maximumfun.org.
People
How to listen
Stream or download episodes directly from our website, or listen via your favorite podcatcher!
