TRANSCRIPT Switchblade Sisters Ep. 93: ‘Rebecca’ with ‘The Wind’ Director Emma Tammi

music

A short, fast tune reminiscent of the opening theme of an action movie. Music continues as Katie begins speaking, then fades out.

katie

Hello, and welcome to Switchblade Sisters, the podcast where women get together to slice and dice our favorite action and genre films. Each week here on the podcast, we invite a new female filmmaker — a writer, director, actor, or producer — and we talk in-depth about their favorite genre film, maybe one that influenced their own work. I’m film critic Katie Walsh, and I’m so excited to have filmmaker Emma Tammi here in the studio. Welcome to Switchblade Sisters!

emma

Thank you; so good to be here.

katie

Yay! Emma Tammi is a filmmaker based in Los Angeles, whose most recent documentary films include Election Day and Fair Chase. She made her narrative feature directorial debut with the Western horror movie The Wind, which premiered at the Toronto International Film Festival in 2018, and was released in April by IFC Midnight. It’s amazing and creepy and wonderful, and it features an incredible lead performance by Caitlin Gerard, so you should go check it out. So Emma, today you have chosen the stone-cold classic 1940 Alfred Hitchcock film, Rebecca—

emma

Yes!

katie

—starring Joan Fontaine and Laurence Olivier, based on the book by Daphne du Maurier. So, why Rebecca?

emma

Oh, man. I actually read the book—

katie

Oh!

emma

—Rebecca in… middle school, I think? I think it was eighth grade. Um, and completely fell in love with it, and, um—then saw the movie. Which—which is true to the spirit of the book, but I was actually just reading prior to coming here, and I hadn’t remembered this, that there are some plot differences—

katie

Yes.

emma

—um, which is interesting. But, uh, in all, kind of, you know, tying into Hollywood code of conduct at the time and whatnot, so—

katie

Mm-hm!

emma

—um, some cool things there, but I—I would say the—the spirit of it is a direct match, and, um, I was also just an avid Hitchcock fan growing up as a kid. Um, constantly renting [through brief laughter] VHS tapes and playing them over and over and over again.

katie

Amazing!

emma

Dating myself here. [Katie laughs.] Um, so for me, being in love with the book and already in love with the filmmaker, this was, like—this movie blew my mind and continues to influence me, and I think about it all the time, but specifically when we were making The Wind, um, I was also thinking about it for references for that film.

katie

Well, it’s definitely a—I’m so glad you chose it, because it’s such a great, uh, comparison point with The Wind, which is another movie about a woman in a house, and creepy stuff is going on, and we don’t know who to believe, we don’t know if there’s a ghost or if it’s supernatural or if it’s just sort of in her mind, and, um, it’s a very—I—your film is a very subjective film, and Hitchcock is known for being this, like, total subjective filmmaker—

emma

Mm.

katie

—um, with different points of view, and, um—not knowing, you know, is this person telling the truth? Is that what the truth is? Is there any objectivity? You know. Preminger was sort of known for being the—the objective filmmaker, and Hitchcock is the subjective filmmaker, so it’s a great reference point. Was it something that you actively thought about while you were making The Wind?

emma

I did! You know, when we were in pre-production, um, I was thinking about it a lot, and all of the parallels that you just mentioned—you know, the fact that there’s a house that this woman is trapped inside, and, um—ours is a small cabin in the middle of nowhere, in the—you know, set in the American West, and this is, you know, a haunted— [Katie laughs quietly.] —gorgeous, enormous mansion in England, so I mean very different context, but—um—the idea that the walls can talk? 

katie

Yeah.

emma

Is alive in both. Um, and so—you know, I think for me the main point of reference when—when I first started thinking about it in relation to The Wind was actually between the two women.

katie

Yes.

emma

Um, and in this case, Rebecca—um—is the other woman, even though we never see her—

katie

Mm-hm.

emma

—and it’s really just her—her memory that is the presence and the character. Um, but in The Wind there are actually two women, and, um, our lead character is—I think haunted by the idea of what might be happening with this other woman—

katie

Yes.

emma

—um, in relation to her husband, and then that woman does pass away, and that spirit keeps haunting her as well—

katie

Mm-hm.

emma

—and staying with her. So it was really the way in which Hitchcock was depicting the suspicion and the presence of—of a woman, and then another woman—

katie

Yeah.

emma

—if you think of it as “the other woman.”

katie

Mm-hm.

emma

Um—who’s no longer there, but absolutely—you know, maybe the biggest presence in… in our leading lady’s life.

katie

Definitely Um, so, I’m just gonna give a little intro to Rebecca, for those of you who haven’t seen it.

emma

[Inaudible].

katie

Um, a little plot synopsis, uh, before we get into the nitty gritty. Of course, spoiler alert. If you haven’t seen Rebecca, this episode will contain spoilers, but that should not stop you from listening before you watch. Like we always say, it’s not what happens, but how it happens, that makes this movie worth watching. Still, if you wanna pause this episode, go watch Rebecca — which you should do, because it is a rare, perfect movie — now is your chance.

music

“Rebecca,” by Franz Waxman. An instrumental song played on string instruments that starts slowly and quickly builds to a tender crescendo. The music is part of the clip from the film Rebecca that begins below.

katie

So! Now we will talk about the plot of Rebecca. _[Imitating the protagonist from Rebecca]_ “Last night, I dreamt I went to Manderley again!”

clip

Unnamed Protagonist: Last night, I dreamt I went to Manderley again. [Music ends.]

emma

Iconic opening lines!

katie

[Laughing] I know! Rebecca is a 1940 romantic psychological thriller directed by Alfred Hitchcock, written by Robert E. Sherwood and Joan Harrison, adapted by Philip MacDonald and Michael Hogan, based on the novel by Daphne du Maurier. It was Hitchcock’s very first American film, and the first he directed under producer David O. Selznick. It’s also Hitchcock’s only film to win the Best Picture Oscar. Joan Fontaine stars as a naive young woman working as a paid companion for an aristocratic doyenne, Mrs. Edythe Van Hopper. In Monte Carlo, she meets a dashing, rich young widower, Max de Winter, played by Laurence Olivier.

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[Music begins and plays through the clip. A tender, romantic instrumental song played with string instruments.] Max de Winter: I’m sorry I was so rude to you yesterday. The only excuse I can offer is that I’ve become boorish through living alone. Unnamed Protagonist: You weren’t, really. You simply wanted to be alone, and— Max: [Laughs.] Tell me. Is Mrs. Van Hopper a friend of yours, or just a relation? Unnamed Protagonist: No, she’s my employer. I’m what is known as a paid companion. Max: [Thinking noise] Huh, I didn’t know companionship could be bought. Unnamed Protagonist: I looked up the word companion in the dictionary once. It said “a friend of the bosom.” [Laughs lightly.] Max: [Hesitates, then laughs.] I don’t envy you the privilege.

katie

After a whirlwind romance, he makes her the new Mrs. de Winter, and whisks her off to his estate, Manderley. Where things get, admittedly, pretty weird. So now we have to mention that Joan Fontaine’s character has no name. [Laughs.]

emma

You know, I’m—I’m actually only realizing that as you’re saying this synopsis—

katie

Mm-hm!

emma

—because I just looked up, on my iPad, the—[laughs]—the characters listed here, and I was like, “How do we reference her as something other than the new—”

katie

The new bride.

crosstalk

Katie & Emma: Yes! Katie: It’s—she does—she doesn’t have a name. Emma: And she’s not! She’s not referenced. She doesn’t have a name when she’s the—

emma

—the handmaiden of the aristocrat.

katie

Right!

emma

Which is so telling, as well.

crosstalk

Katie: Yeah! I mean, that’s definitely something we should talk about— Emma: Yeah. Katie: —as her identity, and I— Emma: Yeah.

katie

—I think in the du Maurier novel, she’s simply referred to as “I,” ‘cause it’s from a first-person perspective.

emma

Right.

katie

Um, and so in—the way people write about her in—in articles and stuff is just “I,” but—[hesitant thinking noise]—I mean, for our purposes, I’ll call her Mrs. de Winter, but. She has no name! So this is something to talk about. [Katie laughs during the last couple of words.]

emma

Fascinating.

katie

One of Hitchcock’s little—fun little tricks—but I guess it comes from the novel. Um—she’s also referred to as “darling,” “dear,” “fool,” “young bride,” “child,” etc. [Laughs.]

emma

Yes! Yes.

katie

It’s very confusing, though, to call her Mrs. de Winter, because when she arrives at Manderley, everyone is obsessed with the titular Rebecca, who we never see! The former Mrs. de Winter, who drowned in a boating accident. Uh, the new young bride — Joan Fontaine — is incredibly insecure and self-conscious about suddenly finding herself the lady of the manor, and that is not helped at all by her stern housekeeper, Mrs. Danvers, played by the incredibly creepy and amazing Judith Anderson. Uh, Mrs. Danvers torments the new Mrs. de Winter, referring constantly to how beautiful and sophisticated Rebecca was.

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[Slow, grand string music, like you might hear at a formal ball.] Mrs. Danvers: I always used to wait up for her, no matter how late. Sometimes she and Mr. de Winter didn’t come home until dawn. While she was undressing, she’d tell me about the party she’d been to. She knew everyone that mattered. Everyone loved her.

crosstalk

Katie:  This movie is, like, [laughing] the definition of impostor syndrome. Emma: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Katie: When she’s sitting at the desk, and she’s just like, “I don’t know what to do here.” [Through laughter.] Like— Emma: Yes. And Mrs. Danvers is like the embodiment of the voice that’s already inside your head. Katie: Yes. Yeah. Like— Emma: You know? And the paranoia— Katie: “You’re not good enough.” [Laughs.] Emma: Yes. And then there’s actually someone there whispering that. Katie: I know, I know! Emma: In the creepiest, most gothic of ways, so, you know. Katie: Yes. Yeah.

katie

Um—to make matters worse, Max is distracted with affairs of the estate, and he sure... acts strange, when they go down to the beach [stifling laughter] where Rebecca drowned.

crosstalk

Emma: Sure does! [Laughs.] Katie: It’s like, “No, you definitely didn’t kill your wife at this beach.” [Laughs.]

katie

Mrs. de Winter tries to impress him with a Halloween costume, which goes over terribly because it’s the same Halloween costume that Rebecca wore—um, and she [stifling brief laughter] almost throws herself out a window, but the incident is forgotten when a ship runs aground on the estate, revealing Rebecca’s sunken boat, with her body in it. So who was buried in the family crypt? Max ultimately confesses to his wife that he put Rebecca’s body in the boat and sunk it.

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[Tense string and woodwind music.] Max: I knew where Rebecca’s body was. Lying on that cabin floor on the bottom of the sea. Mrs. de Winter: How did you know, Max? Max: Because… I… put it there. [The music swells dramatically.]

katie

He claims that she died accidentally while they were having a fight in the cottage over Rebecca telling him that she was pregnant with the child of her cousin, Jack Favell, played by George Sanders who I love very dearly. Um— [Emma laughs.]

crosstalk

Katie: But—I—also, everyone’s just, like, kind of okay with the [laughing] fact that they—she was having an affair with her cousin, but I’m gonna assume it was distant. Emma: Sh—ye—well, first cousin, I think is how they describe him—but, you know, it was... kind of commonplace back in that—in that period of time? Katie: I’m like, I’m always—Aristocrats are, uh… [laughs] kind of inbred. Emma: [Inaudible]. Yeah.

katie

Um, during a new inquest into Rebecca’s death, suspicions are raised about the providence of the holes in her boat, and Jack tries to blackmail Max with a letter from Rebecca. They end up visiting Rebecca’s doctor, who reveals that she had terminal cancer, therefore proving her suicide. Everyone’s also just kind of okay with that, as well.

clip

[Gentle yet dramatic string music.] Doctor: Yes, the growth was deep-rooted. An operation would have been no earthly use at all. In a short time, she would have been under morphia. [Music swells.] There was nothing that could be done for her except wait. Max: Did she say anything? When you told her? Doctor: She smiled in a queer sort of way. Your wife was a wonderful woman, Mr. de Winter. And oh, yes, I remember she said something that struck me as being very peculiar at the time. When I told her it was a matter of months, she said, “Oh no, Doctor. Not that long.”

katie

The Rebecca-obsessed Mrs. Danvers doesn’t take this news well, and burns down Manderley.

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[Fast, dramatic string music.] [Sounds of a large fire crackling.] Mrs. de Winter: Mrs. Danvers. She’s gone mad. She said she’d rather destroy Manderley than see us happy here.

katie

[Stumbling briefly over her words.] Leaving Mr. and Mrs. de Winter to live happily ever after— [Emma laughs.] —[laughing] but they’re traumatized. [Emma laughs again.] So that is the plot of Rebecca. Everything’s on the table now. [Laughs.]

emma

Yes! Yes.

katie

Um—so—what—we were ki—getting into this a little bit, but, I mean, Hitchcock’s visual storytelling in this film is so amazing. Uh, for one thing, he uses the camera to sort of animate Rebecca herself. There’s a scene in the cottage where Max is talking about the argument that they have, and it—the camera sort of goes up and to the side. It sort of mimics the movements that Rebecca would have made—

emma

Yes, he’s like, “She was sitting on that chaise—” [Katie laughs.] —and starts to de—like, depict the whole conversation that they had, and the camera’s, like, panning on the chaise, and… nothing’s happening other than us imagining what her—what her presence was during that—

katie

Mm-hm!

emma

—conversation that they had, but it also—as does the rest of the house, but this specific—is that—does that happen in the boathouse, that conversation?

katie

Yeah, it’s like, down in that cottage or whatever it is—

emma

Yeah.

katie

—a boathouse, yeah.

emma

By the sea.

katie

Mm-hm.

emma

Um—it—you know, everything looks like—it looks a cup of tea that she could’ve been drinking has been left there. Everything is so preserved, and obviously in the main house Mrs. Danvers has been caretaking and preserving everything to a T—

katie

Mm-hm.

emma

—including, you know, the way Rebecca’s underwear [laughing] is laid out— [Katie laughs.] —you know? This is just very—

katie

Yeah.

emma

—very thorough. But, um, yeah. That—that scene in particular, I think Hitchcock really, like, just leans into this idea that she’s—you know. The past has not been—no—no one’s moved on from it.

katie

Right! And—and what could otherwise just be a scene where Max just says, “And then I said this. And then she said this. And then this happened,” he makes such a—so dynamic, just by a tilt up, a pan to the left, and tur—you know, suddenly, you—you—you’re f—gripped with this presence of this person, who has been present the entire time, just because everyone is so talking about her all the time.

emma

Mm-hm.

katie

Um—but it’s amazing that he just, like, does that with the camera. And it’s very simple, but very effective.

emma

Super simple.

katie

What was your approach to the camera in The Wind? I mean, that—that film is—is so visually dynamic and distinctive, and—and creates such a sense of mood and atmosphere and place. I mean, what were your—what were you kind of thinking when you were shooting it?

emma

Yeah. I mean, it’s interesting because Hitchcock in this one in particular—um—uh—there isn’t a ton of camera movement, so when—when he pushes in, which is often in moments that are evoking something, um, that is terrifying the new Mrs. de Winter, uh, or evoking the spirit of Rebecca, you really feel it.

katie

Mm-hm.

emma

And I think we were trying to do something similar with The Wind. Um, we did a lot of, like, lock-off shots that, um, we were shooting in anamorphic, and, you know, trying to evoke the—the wide open space—

katie

Mm-hm.

emma

—um, of the environment around the cabin, um, that ultimately ends up being—you know, the sprawlingness of it all ultimately ends up being claustrophobic—

katie

Yeah.

emma

—to our characters and—and us as the viewers. Um—so I think when we decided to move the camera, it was with, you know, full intent and really wanting to make sure that those moments—were—were popping because you’ve become so used, as a viewer, to the camera being still.

katie

Mm-hm. And I think there’s another character turning point, um, when Max confesses to—not necessarily murdering his wife, which is different from the book. In the book, he does murder her. Um—but they had to change it because of the Hays Code.

emma

Yeah! I think they—uh, wh—what I was just reading before we came in is they—I—’cause—I guess they couldn’t depict someone who actually had murdered his wife but wasn’t, um, [laughing] reprimanded for it in any way.

katie

[Laughing.] Right.

emma

Um, so, yeah, they—they softened that one up a bit.

katie

Yeah. In the, um, Criterion booklet they have these amazing, uh, reproductions of memos—

emma

Oh, cool!

katie

—uh, of David—for David O. Selznick, um—the—it’s—it’s Hitchcock’s adaptation of—of Rebecca. And he—and Selznick hated it, and he—he brought in new writers, because he was like, “I… don’t like what you’ve done with—”

emma

This is before they shot.

katie

This is before they shot.

emma

Because he did a lot of, I think, recutting and even reshooting after.

katie

Yeah. The—the two of them were at war, because—

emma

Yeah. [Laughs.]

katie

—Selznick... figured himself as producer auteur—

emma

Right.

katie

—‘cause he had done Gone with the Wind—

emma

Right.

katie

—and won a Best Picture, and there were like two or three directors on that, and basically he was the only one who was like the consistent—who like, kept it going.

emma

[[Mm?]].

katie

And then Hitch, this is Hitch’s first movie in America.

emma

Mm-hm.

katie

And the way Hitch shot was that he, um—only shot what he needed.

emma

Mm.

katie

So he would cut in-camera, and he wouldn’t get coverage—

emma

Yes.

katie

—and Selznick would be like, “No, get more coverage ‘cause I wanna supervise the editing!” [Laughing.]

emma

Right. Figuring if you edited in-camera that the producer wouldn’t step in after the fact ‘cause it would be harder, but it turns out that—

katie

Right.

emma

—that didn’t deter him at all!

katie

So, I mean, from what I can tell, it was like a learning experience for both of these guys—

emma

Mm-hm.

katie

—and it was the first time they were working together. Um, but this is the memo that [laughing] Selznick wrote to Hitchcock in 1939. “Dear Hitch, It is my unfortunate and distressing task to tell you that I am shocked and disappointed beyond words by the treatment of Rebecca.” [Laughs.]

emma

Ohhh my god.

katie

Beyond words! Except—beyond words, except this goes on for at least—

emma

[Laughing.] There are many words!

katie

—four pages! [Both laugh.]

emma

That’s incredible!

katie

I know!

music

A jaunty, jazzy tune.

katie

Um, well, we are gonna take a quick break. And when we come back, we will talk more about Rebecca.

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music

A jaunty, jazzy tune.

katie

Welcome back to Switchblade Sisters! I’m Katie Walsh, and we are talking to director Emma Tammi about Rebecca. Um, so, we’ve talked about the production design and the camera movements and everything that Hitchcock did, and I’m sure we can get into more of the drama [laughing] behind the scenes—

emma

Mm-hm.

katie

—with Selznick and Hitchcock. But, um, I did really wanna talk about some of the performances, because there’s some really iconic performances in this film. Um…. I think I—one thing I was gonna say about Joan Fontaine’s performance when we were talking about her, the shifts in her character—uh, I really love the scene where she—where Max is confessing to her—

emma

Mm!

katie

—in the cottage. Uh, or maybe it’s—I can’t remember where they are. They might be in the cottage. But he confesses, “I hated her.” He—I ha—and talking about Rebecca. And the look on her face is… So—so simultaneously her husband is telling her, “I… murdered my wife.” [Emma laughs.] Or, “I—I at least put her body in a boat and sunk it to the bottom of the ocean.”

emma

Mm-hm.

katie

But then he also says, “I hated her.” And the look on her face is amazing. It’s like… she’s so happy, but she’s also trying to— [Emma and Katie laugh.] —be like, concerned, but her—she can’t—you know, after ha—being sort of psychologically browbeaten—

emma

Mm-hm.

katie

—by Danvers and even Jack Favell, played by George Sanders. She’s just like, “Oh my god, I’m not an impostor.” Like, “You are in love with me. You didn’t love Rebecca more than me.” And I think that that—that moment really gets at something that is sort of intrinsically human, of just—

emma

Yeah.

katie

—wanting to be loved, and feeling like you aren’t good enough and then being like, “Oh, wait. Maybe I am,” or—

emma

Yes! And also just, like, those moments where you’ve built up a narrative in your head that—that feels so airtight, and feels so real, and then the rug gets pulled out from under you when you realize that’s—ah, you know, absolutely the opposite of what the reality of the situation is. Um—and as you say, like in this case, there’s—there’s joy in that for her. But there’s also, like, this moment of, like, sh—just shock. You know? I think, um—Hitchcock really does a great job specifically with her, throughout moments in the film, where something is sinking in. [Laughs.] Whether it’s the—you know, the reality of, like, how present Rebecca still is, um—or something like this, which is, like, in fact… this narrative of them being so in love, and her feeling like she’s never gonna measure up, is completely false.

katie

Mm-hm.

emma

But it all lands with kind of these bold moments of, you know, just really, like… landing on her face and staying on it, and—and feeling—you know, again, like the music just swells, and we have these moments of feeling like we’re inside her head—

katie

Mm-hm.

emma

—um, and sometimes it’s, like, a gust of kind of—of romantic, you know, um—music cue, or a suspenseful scary one, and—and I think—he p—he really merges those two tones throughout the film so well.

katie

Mm-hm!

emma

Um, where we can just go into these moments of feeling like, romantically swept up in what she is being swept up in, and then completely horrified or shocked, or, you know, taken for a ride. And, um, I—I think that that moment is—is the biggest, terms of a reveal, throughout the whole film.

katie

Yeah! And I think it’s kind of easy now for us to sort of, like, laugh at, like, Fontaine and Olivier’s [through brief laughter] performances, ‘cause she’s so tremulous, and—

emma

Yes.

katie

—kind of like, [high-pitched, imitating Mrs. de Winter] “Oh, Max! Aren’t we happy?” and he’s so like,  [gruff, imitating Max] “I’ve never been happy a day in my life!” [Katie and Emma laugh.] [Normal voice] And—but it—they really are excellent performances, and I think they really do get at something that is very universal and very human. This idea of building up so—your lover’s ex as like a big, bad monster and then finally understanding the reality of the situation. So it’s like a very—I think it’s relatable, [laughing] even to this day.

emma

Absolutely! And that whole scene — and they both play it so well — is about all of the walls in their relationship being torn down.

katie

Yeah. You could even say the same thing for Mrs. Danvers and Rebecca. That her whole world is Rebecca.

emma

Yes!

katie

And caring for Rebecca, and—there’s a lot of discussion that there’s coded lesbian relationship between the two women. Um—

emma

I’ve read about that!

katie

Yeah.

crosstalk

Emma: And I—as a kid, I was completely, uh… not in tune with it that—could be a subtext, and also I guess in the book, Mrs. Danvers is quite older, so— Katie: Yeah, she’s a lot older. Emma: —she’s more of a mother figure— Katie: Mm-hm. Emma: —than a—um—but that’s interesting. Katie: And—but I think—

katie

—Hitchcock kind of got around that by… well, so the—the scene where she’s showing her the room.

emma

Yep.

katie

And she’s showing her all her—all of Rebecca’s underwear. [Laughing.]

emma

Yes.

katie

And she takes this incredibly sexy nighty, that’s like sheer black lace, and she says, “Look, have you ever seen anything so delicate? You can see my hand through it.” And then Mrs. de Winter—literally is like, totally overwhelmed— [Emma laughs.] —staggers out of the room, and there was—you know, uh—I guess some people said, “Oh, is—is this coded lesbian relationship?” And, uh, Hitchcock was always like, “No, no no no no no no, no no no no,” but, you know, plausible deniability, but they—it is sort of, like, in the subtext—

emma

Yeah!

katie

—[through laughter] swirling in the atmosphere.

emma

Look, I think regardless of how—how much you as a viewer feel like it got pushed to, she was infatuated with her and she was in love with her, so—

katie

Right!

emma

—how far that went, who knows?

katie

Right.

emma

And keeping it mysterious, I think, is actually kind of great, and having—you know, a lesbian love affair subtext in—in one viewer’s head—

katie

Mm-hm.

emma

—and then, you know, another take on it in someone else’s is cool. I li—I like the ambiguity that he left, but I also like that he pushed it into a weird enough space that it was like, there’s an intimacy here that is so far beyond what her role would have been.

katie

Mm-hm.

emma

Uh, Mrs. Danvers’s role in the house.

katie

Yeah, and—I mean, Judith Anderson is just so great. I mean, every time she’s on screen, like, I would get like a chill down my spine. [Laughing.] She’s so creepy!

emma

She’s so creepy, and she’s so creepy by doing… nothing.

katie

Yeah, stillness!

emma

The stillness is insane. I mean, her face at times—doesn’t move, doesn’t twitch, doe—you know, it’s so stoic, um, that it almost feels… not human.

katie

Yeah. I—in your film, you have two very different performances from the women. Uh, you have Caitlin Gerard giving this very tough prairie woman performance that, you know, travels all different, um, spectrums of emotions, whether she’s fighting for her life, or mourning the loss of a child, or confused about her neighbors. And then you have Julia Goldani Telles, who’s wonderful, and she gives more of the—a little bit of the naïf. Uh, more of the Joan Fontaine.

emma

Yeah!

katie

If you will.

emma

And she is a bit of a child bride, so there is a—

katie

Yeah.

emma

—also an age difference between the two of them.

katie

So—so how did you sort of approach these two different performance styles with your actresses?

emma

You know, I think—um—what Julia was bringing to the table, uh, was the naïveté, as you—as you bring up. But also... a freeness?

katie

Yes!

emma

And what she was ultimately walking into, in terms of being a pioneer woman of that time, was—um—a very regimented and tough life. And that naïveté, and freeness, and joyf—joy, [laughing] just kind of gets, you know, um—squashed! In the wake of the realities of what needs to happen, um, in the middle of nowhere when you’re trying to survive and create a homestead. Lizzy’s already been through the wringer, um, and we get—through a couple different time periods in the film, we get to kind of see the progression of how she’s come to be who she is—

katie

Mm-hm.

emma

—in our present-day timeline. Um, which, as you mention, uh, also had some trauma of losing a child, and—you know, I think just the years of wear, um, and experience—

katie

Yeah.

emma

—that being out there would’ve, you know, given her. But she’s also got this grit that I think the character of Emma, that Julia plays, is really drawn to, and kind of, like, fascinated by, and that she definitely doesn’t have.

katie

Mm-hm.

emma

So in some ways, you know, the character of Emma, who Julia plays, was really serving to act as a mirror for the Lizzy character, who Caitlin Gerard plays, of—of maybe who she used to be, or a version of self before, you know, she had been working the land for years and years, and—um—and had already gone through experiences that had, um, caused tension within her marriage, and, you know, had been tough. And the character of Emma’s just gotten married and they’ve just come out here, and they’re—you know, they haven’t been through any of that yet. And they come totally ill-equipped.

katie

Right, I—I think one thing that your—that really struck me when watching your film was [laughter] I was like, “Being a pioneer was very hard!” There’s—you—it’s literally you and no one else. You know?

emma

So hard.

katie

She says something like, “Oh, where’s the church?” and it’s like, “...There’s only four of us,” like, [laughter] “There’s no church!” And all you can see is light across the plain, and you hope that everything’s okay over there, or that—you know, that signifies their life. Um, when the light—when the—you can see that flickering across the prairie, and the—just the—the vastness of, um—of the land, and the nothingness. [Laughs.]

emma

The nothingness. And yeah, the flickering light just being, like, the one sign that there’s other human life—

katie

Right.

emma

—nearby.

katie

Um, so Teresa Sutherland wrote the script for The Wind.

emma

Yes.

katie

Why did you decide that you wanted to do this as your narrative feature directorial debut?

emma

You know, I, um—had worked with one of the producers on a documentary film that I also shot in New Mexico, which is where we shot The Wind. Um, and I—I knew that I wanted to move into narrative work, but just had not had the opportunity yet, and, um—this producer was like, “We’re—you know, our company Soapbox Films is starting a film fund, and we’re gonna do a couple of films out of this fund, and we know that this script that Teresa wrote is the first one that we wanna produce.” Um, and kinda told me the premise, and I was like, “Well that’s amazing,” like, “I’m, uh—I’m in!” Um, love Westerns. Like, the idea of making a Western—

katie

Mm-hm.

emma

—to me felt like winning the lottery. Um, and—you know, I f—the entry point for me, and when I first read the script, I just felt like it was such a strong drama at its core, and that the character of Lizzy was so fully developed, and that all of the characters really were—um—flawed at times, and heroic at times, and just, like ha—were able to flex so much, um… just range. Uh, and I think within the genre, you know… framework—you know, being able to make sure that the drama is as fully fleshed out, is—is like the—the golden ticket, and really, um, the foundations of good horror.

crosstalk

Katie: Definitely. Emma: In my opinion.

emma

So—and certainly the horror that I am most drawn to as a viewer. Um, I had also — as a teenager — read some of these actual accounts of the women on the prairie, that Teresa had read and been inspired by when she was writing this.

katie

Wow.

emma

So I was already kind of, like, captivated with the experience of these women, ‘cause it’s not something that you hear about that often. An—you know, you hear more about the cowboy of it all. And, um… I… [Laughter.] It was so— I went back and reread a lot of the, uh, the books that—that she was referencing, and they’re just so… they’re so horrific!

crosstalk

Katie: [Laughter.] Yeah! Emma: You know? Katie: Yeah! Emma: And it’s like—

emma

—and we were able—and what she was able to do was really make it sparkle more; I mean it becomes this, like, you know—the—it becomes so much more fun, in taking it into this, like, fictionalized supernatural space.

katie

Oh, definitely. It’s like religious, supernatural horror.

emma

Yes.

katie

It’s not just, “Oh my god. Your everyday life is horror.”

crosstalk

Emma: Yes. Katie: [Laughter.] But it is as well!

emma

It is as well! So it felt, like, born of this thing that was actually horrific, which I love, that it had that origin, but also that these women were so badass that they got through this—

katie

Yeah.

emma

—and, like, actually did what they did, was—uh, was inspiring, so I was like, “This is such a great combo, and yet it also lets us leave the reality of the situation and go into a—a more fun space—”

katie

Definitely.

emma

“—um, in terms of—um, just cinematically.”

music

A jaunty, jazzy tune.

katie

Well, we will take another quick little break, and when we come back, we will wrap up talking about Rebecca.

promo

[Cheerful, optimistic music.] Moujan: Hello! I’m Moujan Zolfaghari, and I play a bunch of characters on Mission to Zyxx, an improvised science fiction podcast on Maximum Fun. And this is our incredible sound designer, Shane. Shane: Hello! Moujan: Now, Shane makes it possible for me to play a thousand billion characters in our galaxy— [Higher-pitched metallic, robotic voice]—such as The Bargarean Jade, ship of the stars. [Lower-pitched metallic, robotic voice] And [[the fourth century?]]. Prepare to [[eat?]] pancakes. [Very high-pitched] And [[Wheat?]]! Let’s get [[dusted?]] up, baby! [Mid-pitched, a little stilted] And Emissary [inaudible]. Hey, I just got another [[ab?]]. [Gravelly, yelling] And the horrible [[wife?]]! Augh! [Regular speaking voice] Oh, also there are five other cast members, and I’ll give them just all a second to say hi. Speaker: Uh, hey. Speaker: Hello! Speaker: Hey. Moujan: Yeah, that’s enough. Okay, so the season finale of Mission to Zyxx is coming out next week, so it’s the perfect time to dive in and catch up with our intrepid crew as they explore the Zyxx quadrant. So give us a listen! To Mission to Zyxx on Maximum Fun!

music

A jaunty, jazzy tune.

katie

Welcome back to Switchblade Sisters. We’re talking Rebecca with Emma Tammi, the director of The Wind. Sooo, I also was just for fun gonna mention that, uh—this won Best Picture in 1940, as I mentioned before, and it was—uh, Hitchcock’s only Best Picture winner, which is crazy. It was his very first American film, and obviously he did a… few other ones that you might have heard of— [Katie and Emma laugh, Katie through her next two words.] —after that.

emma

Just a few.

katie

Um, so it’s crazy that he never won Best Picture again. And he also was nominated for Best Director. This year John Ford beat him for The Grapes of Wrath, and he was nominated five times and never won. So that just goes to show you that The Oscars have always been bullshit. [Katie and Emma laugh.]

emma

Indeed.

katie

Um, so don’t take it [laughter] too seriously— [Emma laughs.] —‘cause it’s just a group of people making weird choices. [Laughs.]

emma

Yeah! Um—

katie

He did w—they did give him an Honorary, at a certain point in time—an Honorary Oscar at a certain point, but yeah. Never won best director. But he’s literally, I think, the director that people think of when they think of auteur when they think of directors, so… They don’t always get it right! The academy doesn’t always get it right. [Laughs.]

emma

Hundred percent. I wonder if it ever had a—I mean, there’s so many politics involved, so who knows what it was, but—I—you know, I also think, like… it—a—a lot of his—most of his films being in this thriller space, maybe they were taken less seriously.

katie

Yeah. I think potentially—

emma

And we still grapple with that—

katie

Yeah.

emma

—and I think, you know, in 2019, things are a little different, where this, like, elevated genre… moment—

katie

Yeah!

emma

—is happening, and people are taking, um, horror, I think, in a more, um… I think it’s just part of the conversation in a—a more serious way, for lack of a better word, than—you know, just horror kinda being relegated into this B movie zone. But—you know, what I was thinking earlier, when you said about—uh, what you said about Hitchcock, um, and how he was marrying the music with—with his film. I—you know… This is a thriller, but if you look at this one and The Wind as well, like, there are not many moments that are just straight up terrifying. 90% of the terror is the tone.

katie

Yes.

emma

And this ominous, um, foreboding presence—

katie

Mm-hm.

emma

—that’s in the air, or lurking behind your shoulder, or, you know, however you’re perceiving it. So I think that was something that he did really masterfully.

katie

Oh, definitely!

emma

And that was something that we really wanted to, I think, achieve with The Wind, because it—we were blending different genres together. It was a—a slow burn Western, and also a supernatural horror film, and how do you make those two feel of a whole—

katie

Mm-hm.

emma

—the whole time? Um, and I think tone and environment, and—and the w—the way in which, you know, music interacts with that is—is so key.

katie

Oh, absolutely! I mean, sound design, tone, performance, um, editing… I—I think that, um—you know, in both films, there’s—you know, especially in Rebecca, there—nothing— We don’t see any violence.

emma

No!

katie

There’s no ghost. There’s no supernatural thing. But you just are kind of gripped by this tension that exists, and so it’s like, literally all in your head, and—

emma

Mm-hm.

katie

—and, I mean, I think everybody knows that, you know, if you’re insecure in a relationship, or if you’re in a new environment and you don’t know what’s going on, like—[laughs] that’s terrifying and horrible! And then you have this creepy housekeeper whispering— [Emma laughs.] —terrifying things. I mean, I think probably the scariest moment is when she’s like, “Jump out the window. Do it. You know you wanna do it!”

clip

[Tense, creeping string music.] Mrs. Danvers: You’ve nothing to live for, really, have you? Look down there. It’s easy, isn’t it? Why don’t you? Why don’t you? Go on. Go on… Don’t be afraid.

Yeah, at the end of the day, when you look back on it, you’re like… “Okay, there isn’t a ghost. It’s not really [laughing] supernatural.”

crosstalk

Katie: I think The Wind has more supernatural elements— Emma: It does. Katie: —kind of more clearly in it— Emma: For sure.

—but there are still moments, even deep into the film, when you’re like, “Wait. Is—is she just imagining this?”

Hm.

Um, and—’cause her husband doubts her. Her husband, um, Lizzy’s husband doubts her. And… I think that’s a super important element, as well of having this, like, female-driven horror, is like… “Is it hysteria? [Laughter] Is it—or is it real?” And—and—

Mm-hm.

—what does that mean to have someone not believe you?

Yes.

Um, and—and even in—in The Wind, it’s like the horror comes from just the realities of life.

Yes.

Um, that she experiences, uh, living in this harsh environment.

Yep.

So it doe—you don’t need a boogeyman.

Right.

You just need your own brain, and [laughing] your own scary, scary life. [Continues laughing.]

Right! And in Rebecca, it’s like, all the embroidered Rs throughout the house would be enough to like—

crosstalk

Emma: —put me in the loony bin. I mean, it’s just... Katie: Oh my god. I know, every single pillowcase!

katie

It’s like, [laughing] I would throw them in the giant fireplace. [Keeps laughing.]

emma

Yes! The memory of a woman you can never measure up to. Oof!

katie

I know.

emma

Rough.

katie

Oh! My god. I mean, [sighs] we’ve all been there, right? [Emma laughs.] Um— [Breaks off, laughing.] Um, you know, and—and it’s interesting, also, because I think this is one of Joan Fontaine’s very best performances. She actually won Best Actress for Suspicion—

emma

Mm!

katie

—another Hitchcock film, which I guess they did right after this. Uh—

crosstalk

Emma: And I think she was nominated for this, but— Katie: Yeah, I think she w— Emma: —didn’t win it. Yeah. Katie: I think they c—they nominated this film for like, 11 Oscars. Emma: Yeah.

katie

Um—but—and—she’s fantastic in this, and—but she—uh, Suspicion is also a really good film. That’s, I think, the one where—didn’t Hitchcock put the lightbulb in the glass of milk? [Beat.] Okay, so—

emma

I haven’t heard this.

katie

—Cary Grant is like, carrying a glass of milk up the stairs, and you think that he’s poisoning his wife.

emma

Uh-huh.

katie

And, um, Hitchcock put a lightbulb in it, so the glass of milk is glowing. And so you’re just, like, [laughing] staring at the glass as he’s walking up the stairs, going—  

emma

Oh my god, I need to re-watch that one!

katie

Yeah!

emma

I don’t remember that moment at all.

katie

Yeah—

emma

But this is not one of the ones—I’ve seen Suspicion—

katie

Wait.

emma

—a couple times.

katie

Wait, was that Suspicion or was that—uh, all of the names are so… All of the Hitchcock titles are so confusing. [Emma laughs.] ‘Cause he did Saboteur and Sabotage. Okay, it is Suspicion!

emma

Yeah.

katie

Cary Grant, Joan Fontaine… Um— “A you—shy, young heiress marries a charming gentleman and soon begins to suspect he is planning to murder her.” So that’s where—yeah. That’s the lightbulb in the glass of milk. [Laughs.]

emma

Glowing glass of milk.

katie

And so—

emma

Oh my god, I gotta re-watch it.

katie

There’s nothing necessarily that says, “Oh, he’s poisoned it,” but because we’re focusing on this glass of milk, we’re like “Oh my god, what’s in that!?”

emma

Mm-hm.

katie

So it—again, it’s like, you doubt yourself, you doubt—uh, the people around you. And that’s the most terrifying place to be in.

emma

Yeah!

katie

Where you can’t believe anything.

emma

Yep.

katie

So… Hitchcock, [laughing] master of suspense.

emma

Oh, yeah. [Katie keeps laughing.] Absolutely.

katie

Any other favorite Hitchcock films?

emma

Well, Rear Window.

katie

Rear Window.

emma

Definitely, uh, one of my faves. Um, and as I was saying, like, I just have to watch that at least once every summer.

katie

Mm-hm.

emma

Um, [laughing] but normally end up watching it a couple of times every year.

katie

Mm-hm.

crosstalk

Emma: Um, I grew up in New York, and this idea of looking into other people’s— Katie: Oh, totally, yeah. Emma: —windows and apartment buildings, and imagining what their lives are, and then ultimately, like, solving a mystery— [Katie laughs.] —and a murder in one is just the best! Katie: Yeah.

emma

Um, but again, [laughter] there’s so many moments in that where we’re just watching Cary Grant sit there, completely incapacitated— [Katie laughs.] —watching people.

crosstalk

Emma: You know what I mean? Katie: Jimmy Stewart. Emma: Jimmy Stewart! Katie: Yeah. Emma: Sorry.

crosstalk

Emma: So it’s like—wha—you know, again, he just… is so masterful in—in keeping the tension alive in these moments that are— Katie: Oh my god, it's really— Emma: —should be boring.

katie

Yeah! And—and it’s like you—I watch a lot of movies for work, and sometimes I’m really bored, and then sometimes you wa—you just watch something by a master, and you’re like, “Ugh! How does he do it?” Like—

emma

Yeah.

katie

—anybody should be able to do it, but Hitchcock does it like nobody else. Um— This also—this film reminds me a lot of—uh, Vertigo.

emma

Which I just re-watched, actually… last summer, I think, on the big screen? And was shocked. [Katie laughs.] At how my memory of it did—was not matching up with what—

katie

—it actually was?

crosstalk

Emma: It’s just so much weirder than I remember it being. Katie: Oh, it’s very weird, yeah.

emma

And I was actually just, like, really blown away with the—ch—like, the—just the risks and chances that—

katie

Mm-hm.

emma

—he took as a filmmaker, and just the—the messiness of it all, even though it’s masterfully crafted.

katie

Mm-hm.

crosstalk

Emma: Do you know what I mean? Like— Katie: Yeah, yeah! Emma: There are—[sighs]. Katie: It’s—I mean, it’s kooky, the scene where, like— Emma: It’s kooky! Katie: —uh, what is it, [laughter] his—Jimmy Stewart’s, like, floating head?

emma

Yes! [Katie laughs.] And it’s just, like, in the middle of the movie, all of the sudden there’s this animated sequence, and like, you know, that is an iconic image that we all—

crosstalk

Emma: —know and love and take— Katie: We just accept! [Laughs.] Emma: We accept at this point!

emma

But then you start—you re-watch the movie, and that just happens in the middle of it, and just, like—whoa! [Katie laughs.] Whoa! This is trippy! Um—

crosstalk

Katie: Yeah, it’s like—it’s gotta be— Emma: It’s rambling. Katie: As a filmmaker, it’s gotta be, like, kind of emboldening to— Emma: Yeah. Katie: —to just say, “Oh. Okay, I can take some risks.”

emma

Yes! [Katie laughs.] Absolutely! And it’s a great reminder to be, like… “You should.”

katie

Yeah! ‘Cause it makes it more memorable.

emma

Absolutely. And, you know, take those big swings and—and some will land and some won’t, and, you know—maybe... 50 years later—

katie

[Laughter.] I know.

emma

—you’ll look back and be like, “Well that was weird as shit, but it worked!” Or—or not! But I—

katie

Right.

emma

It w—it was… [laughing] It felt like a conversation with Hitchcock, when I re-watched that, and like—and like a reminder, as like a little—

katie

Mm-hm.

emma

—nudge, as a filmmaker, like—

katie

Yeah.

emma

“Keep pushing the weird.” And keep, like—you know. Trying shit!

katie

Yeah!

emma

Um—and again, I just don’t feel like he’s the filmmaker that normally reminds me of that, because I do think of him a—really, as just, like, classically masterful.

katie

Classic—

emma

And he is!

katie

Yeah.

emma

But—

katie

Classically masterful, formalist.

crosstalk

Katie: Yeah. Emma: Yes!

emma

But, um, that movie reawakened a lot for—for me, um—uh—but it was really different than I had remembered it.

music

A jaunty, jazzy tune. Continues under dialogue.

katie

[Laughter] Yeah.

emma

It was great.

crosstalk

Katie: Well, thank you so much for talking Rebecca with us today— Emma: Aw, thanks for having me. Katie: —and talking all things Hitch. It was an awesome conversation.

katie

Everyone go watch The Wind. And thank you for listening to Switchblade Sisters. If you like what you’re hearing, please leave us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. If you do, we’ll read it on-air. If you wanna let us know what you think of the show, you can tweet us @SwitchbladePod, or email us at switchbladesisters@maximumfun.org. Please check out our Facebook group, facebook.com/groups/switchbladesisters. Our producer is Casey O’Brien. Our senior producer is Laura Swisher. This is a production of maximumfun.org. [Music ends.]

clip

Mrs. de Winter: She’s gone mad. She said she’d rather destroy Manderley than see us happy here.

music

A cheerful guitar chord.

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