TRANSCRIPT One Bad Mother Episode 449: 23andMe and Maybe Someone Else, with Eve Sturges

00:00:00

Biz Ellis

Host

Hi. I’m Biz.

00:00:01

Theresa Thorn

Host

And I’m Theresa.

00:00:02

Biz 

Host

Due to the pandemic, we bring you One Bad Mother straight from our homes—including such interruptions as: children! Animal noises! And more! So let’s all get a little closer while we have to be so far apart. And remember—we are doing a good job.

00:00:20

Music

Music

“Summon the Rawk” by Kevin MacLeod. Driving electric guitar and heavy drums.

[Continues through dialogue.]

00:00:24

Biz 

Host

This week on One Bad Mother—23andMe and maybe someone else! We talk to Eve Sturges about DNA discoveries. Plus, Biz is on a roll!

00:00:36

Crosstalk

Crosstalk

Biz and caller: Wooooo!

00:00:39

Caller

Caller

This is a check-in. I feel great right now. I was just at the public library. And we ran into one of my daughter’s friends from school, so she went off to go look at a book with this other girl so I was sitting at a table coloring with this boy.

[Biz laughs.] 

After a little while he looks at me and says, “I like your style.” Me? My style? My—whew! I said, “Thanks! I like how you’re wearing your hoodie backwards!” And then we just kept on coloring. But man. I don’t have any style, and I just feel so cool right now ‘cause a six-year-old—

[Biz laughs.] 

—told me he likes my style! Just, shit, man. It’s just so great. Anyways. Everybody’s doing a great job! I love you all! Bye. 

00:01:30

Biz 

Host

This was a delight. Y’know, when I first heard this message I was a little confused when you said that your daughter went off with their friend, and then you sat down. Up into the point where you said “coloring,” I thought you were sitting down with maybe the other parent. And then coloring, and I was like, “That’s cool.” And then they said they—like, a little boy. I was like, “Where’d this little boy—” And now it all makes sense. One, you’re doing an amazing job going to the library. I love libraries. They are the greatest place that America has to offer. All of us. I love fucking libraries. Two, I really appreciate that you just sat and continued coloring with another kid. This is great. And good job accepting the compliment! I just think that’s great. You do have style! And there’s no better tastemaker than a six-year-old boy. If you’re gonna get called out for great style, that’s who you wanna get called out by. I love everything about this check-in. You’re doing an amazing job! Woo! 

Speaking of amazing jobs, it’s time for thank-you’s.

00:02:37

Music

Music

Heavy electric guitar and driving percussion overlaid with “Ohh, oh-oh, oh-oh” and “Hey-ey-ey-ey-ey-ey” lyrics.

00:02:51

Biz 

Host

Okay. Here we go. Thank you libraries. Let’s just start there. Libraries? You are not only a social hub, you are a hub for parents with young children. Never have I ever been so aware of how critical libraries were until they were taken from me because of the pandemic. My kids both learned how to sit and listen because of story time. And then when they got into preschool and elementary school, they already were kinda used to being in a “you have to sit and listen sometimes” environment. And I didn’t have to pay anything for that! I just went to the library! Went to story time and it was great! You are also an amazing place for adults. Do you like to puzzle? There’s probably a table with a puzzle on it somewhere in your library! Our libraries—y’know, they’re humble and wonderful and they put on food truck nights some nights? Music nights? They support local artists. There’s always somebody coming by and doing a reading. They probably have like a book club or like a murder book club or like a knitting club. Y’know, check out your local library! Thank you, librarians and all the people who work at libraries. 

And I’m just—I just got through doing the travel with the family for the spring break. And big thank you to people who work in the travel industry, whether you are shuttling us from car parking garages to getting the airplanes ready and clean for all of us to get on. I mean, like, look. We had a flight canceled because the mechanics had to come out and check the brakes. And yeah, the flight was canceled. But yeah, I’m glad I didn’t get on a plane whose brakes weren’t working! Yeah, that was a real pain in the ass, but that is separate from my appreciation and love for the people who made sure we didn’t get on a fucked-up plane! So thank you, all of you.

00:04:52

Biz 

Host

Speaking of travel—yes! Spring breaaak! Is not something we’ve done in like two-and-a-half years. [Laughs.] It’s sort of like that moment where you realize your first-grader has never been in a school. Right? Because of the pandemic. There’s a good chance they just missed school and then suddenly were in it. Or my fifth-grader suddenly became a seventh-grader the next time they went. So… we had to use some tickets, else we lost them. And luckily the short time window they gave us to use it matched up with spring break, so—as you may remember—I asked the kids, “What do you guys wanna do?” And Ellis wanted to play minigolf. Raiden wanted to see mushrooms, and I’m always up for a good roadside attraction. 

And so the obvious choice was Oregon. [Laughs.] So we flew up to Portland, spent a few days there. Drove down to Eugene, Oregon. Spent a few days there. And then drove back. And let me tell you—we played minigolf every—we landed in Portland around 11:30, and by 2:30? We were playing at an indoor, pirate-themed, glow-in-the-dark minigolf setup. And that was something. A couple of things we learned—pirate-themed glow-in-the-dark minigolf is more popular than you would think. We came upon that again at a little pizza parlor called Pietro’s. [Laughs.] The way—on the way down to Eugene that had an indoor pirate-themed glow-in-the-dark. I will say the best ones were the outdoor ones. We did it all. 

We also went on several hikes and saw so many mushrooms. So very many mushrooms. We took lots of pictures of mushrooms because Raiden is very into mushrooms right now. We also went and saw the giant Paul Bunyan statue in which I sat on his boot. We also drove a little bit out of the way to an abbey that has a little museum that stores a variety of interesting historical artifacts. Including… the world’s largest pig hairball. And I gotta tell ya, I think I was expecting something at least the size of a head. It’s a little smaller than a baseball. Which is still a sizeable pig hairball! That the pig made in their intestines. I didn’t even know how that thing got out of there. But we saw it. Bucket list? Check. 

And I gotta tell you—everybody did such a remarkable—I mean the last time we went on a vacation and went on a plane? Ellis was like… five or six! Just getting to that place where they are like willing to watch a screen the entire time. Y’know? Raiden was like Ellis’s age! That’s so weird! And so they were all like old enough to kind of be out in the world and be slightly reasonable humans. It was… a success! So there you go. Everybody was really reasonable. It was fun. We all did stuff that we enjoyed. Nothing could have made Stefan and I prouder than two kids who wanted to go play minigolf and hit roadside attractions and look for mushrooms. It was sort of like we clearly finally built the things we were trying to build. Which I think ties in nicely— [Laughs.] To talking about DNA discoveries and what we may think we know about ourselves and what we might discover we know very little about. As we talk with our guest, Eve Sturges, of the podcast Everything’s Relative.

00:08:48

Music

Music

Banjo strums; cheerful banjo music continues through dialogue.

00:08:50

Theresa

Host

Please—take a moment to remember: If you’re friends of the hosts of One Bad Mother, you should assume that when we talk about other moms, we’re talking about you.

00:08:56

Biz 

Host

If you are married to the host of One Bad Mother, we definitely are talking about you.

00:09:00

Theresa

Host

Nothing we say constitutes professional parenting advice.

00:09:03

Biz 

Host

Biz and Theresa’s children are brilliant, lovely, and exceedingly extraordinary.

00:09:07

Theresa

Host

Nothing said on this podcast about them implies otherwise.

[Banjo music fades out.] 

[Biz and her guest repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss the weekly topic.]

00:09:13

Biz 

Host

This week, we are talking to Even Sturges, who is a licensed therapist here in Los Angeles. She’s been podcasting her show Everything’s Relative since 2019 when a man changed her whole life with a single phone call. Eve also has a new process journal called Who Even Am I Anymore. And it is now available on Amazon for anyone with a surprise DNA discovery! [Laughs.] Welcome, Eeeeeve!

00:09:44

Eve Sturges

Guest

Thank you! Thank you so much for having me! It’s very exciting and fun to be here!

00:09:47

Biz 

Host

It is very exciting and fun to see you.

00:09:49

Eve 

Guest

Can I just drink a cup of coffee really fast? I have a second one going right now. Toddler sleep regression be damned.

00:09:55

Biz 

Host

Oh, fuck that shit. Oh, yes, sleep regression. Yeah. You wanna go—let’s just talk about that! We’ve got many shows in the past where I’m like, “I call bullshit.” [Laughs.] Because I think my children are just people who sometimes choose to sleep and sometimes choose to fuck with me. [Laughs.] 

00:10:14

Eve 

Guest

Yeah! Sometimes they’re just assholes who wake up early. I never know what to tell me when people tell me their children are having sleep regressions? Like, and I’m like, “Well…”

00:10:22

Biz 

Host

Okay!

00:10:24

Eve 

Guest

How do you know—what? Is that a diagnosis? Like, I don’t understand that. [Laughs.] What is that—mm-hm. Mm-kay.

00:10:29

Biz 

Host

It’s part of my favorite lie I’ve told myself forever, that’s like, “I think we’re about to turn a corner.” [Laughs.] “I think we’re turning a corner!”

00:10:39

Eve 

Guest

“This is probably the last one!”

00:10:40

Biz 

Host

Yeah. “This is it. It’s all different now. It’s all different. We figured it out and I did it. So it was great.” Well that was fun to derail on that. Eve—who lives in your house? 

00:10:52

Eve 

Guest

Who lives in my house? Um—

00:10:55

Biz 

Host

Clearly a toddler. [Laughs.] 

00:10:57

Eve 

Guest

Yes. [Through laughter] There’s clearly a toddler who sometimes wakes up in the morning a little bit early, like 4:45. 

[Biz laughs.] 

Okay. I have. I do know this, I promise. 

00:11:08

Biz 

Host

Okay. You’re not looking at your phone to check?

00:11:10

Eve 

Guest

No, no, no. I’m looking at a piece of paper, which also doesn’t have anything written on it? It’s just— [Laughs.] I’m trying to focus. [Laughs.] Total idiot.

[Biz laughs.] 

Okay. I have Margot Honey, who is two years old. 

00:11:23

Biz 

Host

Okay. That is a great name.

00:11:25

Eve 

Guest

Thank you.

00:11:26

Biz 

Host

Is that the dog?

00:11:28

Eve 

Guest

No. [Laughs.] 

00:11:29

Biz 

Host

Okay. That’s fine. I have a cat named Steve, so you never know.

00:11:31

Eve 

Guest

You never know! It’s a fair—I think it’s a fair question, especially—

00:11:34

Biz 

Host

It is a good name for a person or a pet. Or a college band.

00:11:40

Eve 

Guest

Oh, yeah. Somebody that plays—somebody that definitely plays in Nashville?

00:11:43

Biz 

Host

Yeah, “Welcome to the stage… Margot Honey!”

00:11:45

Eve 

Guest

Mm-hm.

00:11:47

Biz 

Host

Alright. There we go. [Laughs.] 

00:11:49

Eve 

Guest

Yeah. She’s—she’s a human baby. She’s two years old. [Laughs.] 

[Biz laughs.] 

She… she lives with us. And she wakes up whenever she wants to.

00:11:59

Biz 

Host

Oh! Like a person!

00:12:01

Eve 

Guest

Yeah! Her own agency! And I have her older brother is named Dallas, and he is six years old. 

00:12:10

Biz 

Host

Nice. Thank you for identifying—clarifying the species going into the second one. Alright. Good. Good. [Laughs.] 

00:12:18

Eve 

Guest

And then there is a third and oldest child. Her name is Lily Claire, and she is… fucking almost nineteen years old! And… then I also have a dog. He has four legs. He walks on four legs. [Laughs.] Is what I was gonna say. He’s a four-legged creature. [Laughs.] 

[Biz laughs.] 

00:12:42

Biz 

Host

I don’t know. I cruise the humane society pictures all the time. They can walk on lots of different things. So… y’know. 

00:12:49

Eve 

Guest

Totally. And that dog is named Captain Johnny Cash!

00:12:52

Biz 

Host

Okay. [Through laughter] I want to talk to you about… I mean, one does not probably start off thinking, “I’d like to have a podcast one day where I talk about very impactful—” I like to say “A little DNA discovery.” [Laughs.] You are—I looked. You and I have similar backgrounds. I was a theatre major/women’s studies minor. You are a theatre major/social justice major. Yeah. So we both obviously went on to do other things. [Laughs.] 

00:13:27

Eve 

Guest

Right. Right. [Laughs.] Yeah! What is the—what is that? What’s that called? A Venn diagram? A Venn diagram? What is that? What’s in the middle there?

00:13:38

Biz 

Host

This is—my vagina’s just yelling at an audience. 

[Eve laughs.]

So—just for everybody who’s not familiar, talk to us about this man who called you and changed your life. 

00:13:51

Eve 

Guest

Yeah! Um… so, uh, so here’s—here’s what—here’s what—here’s—[breathes]. Here’s what happened. I was going along my merry way on a regular old day. It was a Thursday. And I went to work. And then my husband sent me a screenshot and the screenshot was of a Facebook message. And the Facebook message was from a man. And the man said, “Hello. I really need to talk to you about your wife.” And then it had some like—

00:14:22

Biz 

Host

Ew! [Laughs.]

00:14:24

Eve 

Guest

I know. I know. I know. And then— [Laughs.] And then it had like… personal biographical information about me and my family that nobody would know. And so—

00:14:35

Biz 

Host

Like the fact that you can do like a triple tongue or lick your elbow or something.

00:14:40

Eve 

Guest

Right! Exactly. 

[Biz laughs.] 

Like, “Is she double-jointed?” It was—yeah! It was—compared to licking my elbow, it was very mundane information. But it was stuff that like nobody would know. So I said, “Yeah, I guess—call him. I guess call that guy.” And I had never—

[Biz laughs.] 

And so—so my husband did! And I went on with my day. And then my husband called me and called me and called me and called me while I was in a meeting and I kept ignoring it. ‘Cause it’s not appropriate to answer your phone in a meeting. 

00:15:12

Biz 

Host

No! Unless you’re a woman, in which you’re expected to just drop what you’re doing and take it. [Laughs.]

00:15:19

Eve 

Guest

So I finally said, “I’m sorry. I need to step away.”

[Biz laughs.] 

And as I have mentioned, it was my husband and I was like, “What’s up, Galen?” And he’s like, “So everything’s totally fine. I’m just gonna come pick you up.”

[Both laugh.]

I was like, “Okay!”

00:15:36

Biz 

Host

I’m like, “Who’s dead? Who is dead?” Go ahead.

00:15:39

Eve 

Guest

So cut to—

00:15:41

Biz 

Host

“Everything’s fine. I’m gonna come pick you up.” This is something like—this is a communication thing that I’m pretty sure were in our vows, where I was like, “I’m gonna need you to never call and say that. Just—” [Laughs.]

00:15:52

Eve 

Guest

Yeah. Never start—never start it with that. And in his defense, I knew it was about that phone call. I didn’t think—my imagination did not expand beyond… y’know, any other scary ideas. Um. So… so it turns out that that man called to tell my husband that he believed that he is my real father. And that doesn’t make any sense, because my parents are high school sweethearts and are still together. They’ve been married 45 years. This doesn’t track at all. And he said, “Well, I had an affair with Eve’s mom in the late ‘70s. So…” And the he had, y’know, other parts of the story that made it all sound possible. Um, yeah. So that was—that was—that was that day.

00:16:40

Biz 

Host

So—okay. Actually, this is a question that I have. So your husband comes and picks you up. Does he tell you the moment you’re in the car, or does he like drive you—so it’s like, “Okay. I’m picking you up, and then we’re gonna drive home. Then I’m gonna tell you.” Right? Like— [Laughs.] I honestly am like—it was very specific to call and say, “I’m coming to get you. Everything’s fine.” So then—

00:17:02

Eve 

Guest

He told me right away. [Laughs.] 

00:17:04

Crosstalk

Crosstalk

Biz: Okay! Good! Woo! Woo! Alright. Good, good, good. [Laughs.]

Eve: [Through laughter] He told me—yeah. He told me right away. He told me right away. We didn’t—

00:17:08

Eve 

Guest

And, uh, and maybe the kids were home with the babysitter? He did some—my husband was great that day. He really like, handled the—handled it. Like, told the—got somebody to take care of the kids. Maybe canceled the rest of his day. Came and got me. 

00:17:23

Biz 

Host

That’s actually really good.

00:17:25

Eve 

Guest

Yeah. Told me and then it was this odd thing where it was like, “So what should we do?” And my phone had this massive crack in it? So like the very first thing that we needed to do that I had to do that day was that I needed a new phone. [Laughs.]

[Biz laughs.] 

And so—he was like, “So what do we do?” And I was like, “I need a new phone. Now I need a new phone.”

00:17:49

Biz 

Host

“This is within my control.” [Laughs.]

00:17:50

Eve 

Guest

Yeah. And however we move forward, I’m gonna need a phone. So we walked into a Sprint store. Right? Y’know, it was just like—everything—just the strangest… strangest, mundane series of events. ‘Cause it was like then should we—I should eat. Okay. And like, right there was a Barney’s Beanery, which is— [Laughs.] It’s like L.A. party karaoke… place? With—it’s like a chain dive bar. It’s like a—

00:18:22

Biz 

Host

No, they’ve—‘cause there’s on in Pasadena.

00:18:23

Eve 

Guest

Yeah! That was the one! 

00:18:25

Biz 

Host

[Yelling] I was wondering if that was the one!

00:18:28

Eve 

Guest

That was the one! Yeah!

00:18:30

Biz 

Host

‘Cause I know it does karaoke. Anyway. That’s amazing. Okay. 

00:18:34

Crosstalk

Crosstalk

Eve: Yeah. It’s like a branded dive bar.

Biz: So now I feel like I’m in the car.

00:18:37

Biz 

Host

Feel like I’m in the car with you now. Okay. [Laughs.]

00:18:39

Eve 

Guest

So—so yeah. So he—yeah. No, my husband was really fantastic about it. He’s a righteous dude. And—

00:18:45

Biz 

Host

So what did you do? Did you call your mother first? Did you call your—this guy first? Did you call—like, did you call—did you have siblings?

00:18:56

Crosstalk

Crosstalk

Eve: Yeah! Yeah, yeah, yeah. Got a whole handful of siblings.

Biz: Did you call them? Yeah!

00:19:00

Eve 

Guest

No, and a lot of people ask that! Like, “Did you call your mom first?” And a lot of people do do that, I’ve discovered.

00:19:05

Biz 

Host

Well, yeah. No. I don’t know what I would do.

00:19:07

Eve 

Guest

Yeah! So no. I was, um… I don’t remember who was my first contact. Maybe like—I’ve had the same best friend since seventh grade? So I think I probably talked to her.

00:19:18

Biz 

Host

Or this guy at the Sprint store. [Laughs.]

00:19:20

Eve 

Guest

Yeah. The guy at the Sprint store. Our waitress at Barney’s Beanery. [Laughs.]

00:19:24

Biz 

Host

And then my best friend. [Laughs.]

00:19:26

Eve 

Guest

Then my best friend. And no. I was really worried about my mom. I was really worried about her. Y’know. It’s sort of—sort of a hard story to tell to protect her, but also… it’s my—there’s also parts of it that are my story to tell. But I was very worried about her. So I actually contacted somebody else that I thought, “If anybody else knows… this person will know.” And then I was extra-worried about my dad, the man who raised me, because I wasn’t sure if he knew. So. 

00:19:56

Biz 

Host

That’s a lot.

00:19:58

Eve 

Guest

Yeah. There’s no uncomplicated way to go around these—these reveals. But before I contacted any of the—those people, the important people—we did do a DNA test.

00:20:08

Biz 

Host

Oh, okay.

00:20:10

Eve 

Guest

With the man. Yeah. So the first thing we did was find—find a quick—quick google to a, like, paternity test lab mail-in system. And he was correct! 

[Long pause.]

00:20:22

Biz 

Host

Wowww!

00:20:24

Eve 

Guest

He was correct. Came back 99.9999999.

00:20:29

Biz 

Host

Wowww!

00:20:31

Eve 

Guest

Mm-hm. 

00:20:32

Biz 

Host

Okay. Okay. These are pointless questions. I’m like, I know—

00:20:36

Eve 

Guest

I already know what they all—I mean, ask them. ‘Cause they’re—everybody has them. [Laughs.] IT’s like, I get it.

00:20:40

Biz 

Host

No! My pointless one is… do you—did he look up your mom first? Or did he look you—like, I’m like, “He reached out to your husband.”

00:20:51

Eve 

Guest

Husband! Oh yeah! Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah! I mean, we can go in so many directions. I know all the—

00:20:56

Biz 

Host

So many directions! There was… y’know…

00:20:58

Eve 

Guest

Okay. 

00:21:00

Biz 

Host

It’s like a bottle of wine kind of conversation! Where it’s like—

00:21:03

Eve 

Guest

I know! [Laughs.]

00:21:04

Biz 

Host

Yeah! I bet you’ve had a few bottles of wine with this discussion! Y’know, what is he—is he right- or left-handed? Does he—is he—did you ever meet him? Whatever. Okay.

00:21:15

Eve 

Guest

So… so because of my—I’ve been a writer for a long time, and so a lot of my work is out there on the internet. A lot of personal essays. I’m on Facebook. I produced a comedy show storytelling show in L.A. for a hot second. So there’s information about me out there? And it turns out that actually he had been watching me.

00:21:41

Biz 

Host

Watching? 

00:21:42

Crosstalk

Crosstalk

Eve: [Through laughter] I don’t know how to say it without sounding creepy, but like he had been—

Biz: I know, without it being super weird!

00:21:47

Eve 

Guest

—following me, watching me, for a very long time. So according to him, he felt like he had expected me to figure this all out a long time ago. And… everybody—because lots of people knew about it—were—

00:22:02

Biz 

Host

Oh, so it turns out lots of people knew?

00:22:04

Eve 

Guest

Yeah. Yeah. And everybody was just so surprised that I had not reached out yet. And so he had—

00:22:11

Biz 

Host

By “everybody,” do we mean like a Facebook group—

[Eve laughs.]

Do we mean like, do we mean your family?

00:22:18

Eve 

Guest

Fan club.

00:22:20

Biz 

Host

Do we mean all the friends? Yeah.

00:22:22

Eve 

Guest

I think there were family friends. Not family friends that were in regular contact with my family. But… 

00:22:27

Biz 

Host

Bleh, bleh. Yeah. High school sweetheart style—yeah.

00:22:31

Eve 

Guest

Yes. And people that had been in that circle around that time? He had stayed in communication with and in touch with. So they had all been waiting. And then he has a large number of children who are now my siblings. They had known always. And so they had all been watching and waiting. For this. [Laughs.]

00:22:50

Biz 

Host

So there you are. 

00:22:52

Eve 

Guest

Yes.

00:22:53

Biz 

Host

You have… just received this call and many things have happened after that, in terms of confirming paternity. Turns out everybody was surprised you hadn’t figured it out. That’s… always probably makes you feel great. [Laughs.]

[Eve laughs.]

‘Cause that—see—and I’m sure because you’ve been doing this podcast where you are talking to other people who are having shared experiences, and because you’ve written about it and people have responded probably reached out and said things to you—how common is that, where somebody says, “I can’t believe you didn’t figure this out yet!” Have you discovered that that’s a common thing yet, and how is that helpful? Like, to me that just feels like a—

[Eve laughs.]

—like a package of things to sort out with my therapist. Right? Like, “Am I—are they suggesting I’m an idiot? Or should I have known? Or wait a second, all these people knew and they never told me?!” Like, I mean there’s like—it’s a sandwich of… questions! Is what it is. So… is that normal? 

00:23:58

Eve 

Guest

I would say… I don’t think that’s—anyone has ever asked me that. 

00:24:02

Biz 

Host

You’re welcome. [Laughs.]

00:24:04

Eve 

Guest

And so good question. Great question, Biz. Of all the questions that people ask me, no one has asked me that. And so far, I think the answer is no! People don’t… say that very often. 

00:24:14

Biz 

Host

Okay. Good. [Laughs.] Good. 

00:24:16

Eve 

Guest

Mm-hm. Right. Like—

00:24:18

Biz 

Host

Yay! Good. So how did you go from there to now hosting a podcast? And—I mean, you’re a therapist, which does not in any way mean you are able to provide therapy for yourself. Right? It’s like— [Laughs.]

00:24:33

Eve 

Guest

Correct. [Laughs.]

00:24:35

Biz 

Host

You’re a parent, so you can answer all parenting questions. Right? Like, but you probably had a few tools at hand. You could identify when something was going off the rails. So take me from the confirmation to doing the podcast! 

00:24:51

Eve 

Guest

Yeah! Okay! Well somewhere in there—somewhere after the confirmation, I stumbled upon a couple articles about people that this has happened to. And that led to a couple links and one thing led to another and I discovered thousands of us. I just discovered that it’s happening all the time. And mostly it’s happening more than ever because of 23andMe. And Ancestry.com. So… I found this—this whole community of people, and they’re forming Facebook groups and trying to get together and support and commiserate one another in all sorts of different ways. And so simultaneously, I just couldn’t get out of my head… this concept that people were making these decisions—parents were making decisions for their babies—without knowing what it’s like when they become adults. I guess, would be the way I would describe it. Like, I just couldn’t—again, maybe that’s an empathy tool for me? Is that I can understand being 22. And… also, by the way, the internet and Facebook has not been invented yet. So you just think, like, “No problem.” Like, “We’ll do this thing. This is the best choice. And we’ll never talk about it again.” But now— [Laughs.] There’s this like… massive pool of people! 

00:26:16

Biz 

Host

Yeah, but even if there was not a massive pool of people, that question is still your question. To have. Right? Like, even if you found this out without their being an internet, the question regardless of social media or whatever’s available to people is still the same. What… and why does somebody make that decision for someone else? Right? I mean, which is the hallmark of all parenting almost everything on some level. Right? Because thanks to my old cohost Theresa, the hardest thing I ever had to learn from her was this notion of, “You make the best decision you can when you’re making it.” Right? The question of… a parent making a choice, like not telling them that they have a different parent, right? Or this happens with people who are adopted. “We’re not telling our children they’re adopted. We’re not telling—” Okay. Those are the only [through laughter] two scenarios I can think.

00:27:24

Eve 

Guest

Well, donor conception. Donor conception is huge.

00:27:26

Crosstalk

Crosstalk

Biz: Donor conception. Right. Thank you.

Eve: That’s huge. That’s a huge—

00:27:27

Eve 

Guest

That’s also a—there’s this subset of these populations of there’s this adoption community where this happens all the time. Donor conceptions where it happens all the time. And then…

00:27:36

Biz 

Host

And then… surprise.

00:27:37

Eve 

Guest

Yeah. 

00:27:38

Biz 

Host

Yeah. Or, surprise for one person. [Laughs.]

00:27:40

Eve 

Guest

Mm-hm. [Laughs.]

00:27:42

Biz 

Host

Not so much for apparently everybody else in your community.

00:27:45

Eve 

Guest

Right. Right.

00:27:46

Biz 

Host

So you said, “I wanted to know why.” Right? Like, this is the question you’re pursuing. Correct? Like this was something that kind of drove you…

00:27:55

Eve 

Guest

So… my goals were… threefold. 

00:28:00

Biz 

Host

Okay. Sure.

00:28:02

Eve 

Guest

One was to understand why these decisions were being made. Especially since this is the first time in history we have this large and growing population of people to speak to it. Even though we’ve—this has gone on since the beginning of time!

00:28:17

Crosstalk

Crosstalk

Eve: Beginning of time!

Biz: Oh, long… long time! [Laughs.]

00:28:20

Eve 

Guest

Someone actually said to me the other day, on the podcast, she said that Moses was an NP. And I was like, “Oh!” [Laughs.] “I didn’t know that one!” Like, I— [Laughs.]

00:28:30

Biz 

Host

There was a lot of begetting. 

00:28:32

Eve 

Guest

Yeah. Right?

00:28:34

Biz 

Host

So—yeah.

00:28:35

Eve 

Guest

Beginning of time. So one was that. Two was that I wanted anybody who might possibly be faced with that decision? To think about the consequences. And so—not in a punitive way, but here’s this—I just happened to have a catalog of the consequences. Here you go. Like, here’s what happens as adults when they make this discovery later. That one for sure I have never had confirmation that I have achieved that. [Laughs.]

00:29:00

Biz 

Host

Yeah. I’m already thinking of another question to derail us. 

00:29:03

Eve 

Guest

I’m like, “How many pregnant women listen to your podcast who are debating what to do?” Yeah. Mm-mm. That one is… maybe was a far-fetched goal. And then third was that I wanted people like me to know they were not alone. It is an incredibly isolating experience, like many traumas. Or other—y’know, shocking incidents. It can feel incredibly isolating. And it was so comforting and healing for me to connect with other people? I wanted—I really wanted that.

00:29:36

Biz 

Host

So… in terms of… the question of what happens when you make the choice to not tell. And the results of that to the person you didn’t tell. And I’m gonna use you as an example, because I cannot speak to anybody else right now.

00:29:53

Eve 

Guest

Sure! I’m right here, ready!

00:29:56

Biz 

Host

Yeah! You’re like literally in front of me—yeah.

00:29:58

Eve 

Guest

I’m like ready to be an example.

00:29:59

Biz 

Host

Ready to be an example. So you… find out. And everybody else clearly knows but you. And… what were the results? What were—I mean, were they all negative that you had to work through? I mean, were you really pissed that no one told you? Could you understand why your mom didn’t wanna tell you? Was there… all of the above? 

00:30:27

Eve 

Guest

Yeah, D, all of the above. It was… a trip, man. Um, it was—it’s a total mind-blowing mindfuck. It’s just mindfuck. That’s like the best way—and especially now I know that like everyone goes through it. It’s a kind of existential trauma. Identity becomes something whether you ever thought about it or not? Becomes suddenly this incredibly important question. It also erased, removed, changed, destroyed everything I thought about my parents. Who they were as people, who—it changed so much that—about what I knew about my childhood. It brought up memories. The phenomenon of how much your brain is actually storing and just the strange—the tiniest little memories and offhanded comments and a whisper or a look or… something over time. 

00:31:23

Biz 

Host

Sorry. I’m giggling because I’m thinking of like—like, you being like, “I love mud!” And you’re covering yourself. And everybody else in the family is like, sipping tea. 

00:31:34

Crosstalk

Crosstalk

Biz: Like, their pinkie. And everybody’s like—

Eve: Totally! [Laughs.] No!

00:31:38

Biz 

Host

“Oh, well that’s because—” Right? Like, y’know. [Laughs.]

00:31:41

Eve 

Guest

Right! I mean, it’s not unlike that! It’s not unlike that! I mean, that’s a hilarious example but it’s not unlike that!

[Biz laughs.] 

People across the board—people that have this experience talk about feeling out of place their whole life. And—

00:31:57

Biz 

Host

But—so did you feel out of place?

00:31:59

Eve 

Guest

So here’s my answer to that. Yes, I did. But not so much that I didn’t think I just wasn’t like a little bit more punk rock than my family. [Laughs.]

[Biz laughs.] 

Like—

00:32:12

Biz 

Host

Yeahhh! Right! Yeah!

00:32:15

Eve 

Guest

Y’know? Like when I think about the like… cool kids I was hanging out with, that were like different and we’re proud to be different—

[Biz laughs.] 

There were so many of us. I’m sure we weren’t all discovering that we were this odd child out. Y’know, now as adults. Although if you were—if you went to Petaluma Junior High in 1992-1994? And we hung out? [Laughs.]

00:32:36

Biz 

Host

There’s a good chance!

00:32:37

Eve 

Guest

Let me know if you found out later that you were—one of your parents wasn’t your parents.

00:32:41

Biz 

Host

Or if you knew about— [Laughs.]

00:32:43

Eve 

Guest

If you knew!

00:32:44

Biz 

Host

If you knew about Eve. If you knew, at that time… about Eve. Okay. So… okay. When you found this out, and I am so sorry if I’m just getting way weirdly invasive.

00:32:56

Eve 

Guest

Do it. I mean, the whole concept is invasive. Right? It is like… 

[Biz laughs.] 

The whole thing is that we’re talking about sperm. 

00:33:06

Biz 

Host

So to—to—we’re gonna come back to “invasive.” We’ll wrap up on “invasive.” But before we get to that fun topic—when you got the call the first time, did you already have kids in your house? 

00:33:19

Eve 

Guest

Yes. I had my oldest and I had Dallas, my six-year-old who was then two years old.

00:33:28

Biz 

Host

Two. Okay. So… I know that for me, I had a lot of “before kids were in my house” thoughts. [Laughs.]

00:33:37

Eve 

Guest

Mm. Mm. 

00:33:40

Biz 

Host

I really knew a lot. Just… about everything. And then I had them. And I just got broken. [Laughs.]

[Eve laughs.]

A lot of different ways! Finding that kind of information out about your own parents—about your own mom and dad and all that—I mean… what was the impact on your process being a parent also? 

00:34:09

Eve 

Guest

Also an excellent question. 

00:34:11

Biz 

Host

Mm. 

00:34:13

Eve 

Guest

Mm-hm. Um… [thinking]. Well, it’s interesting. I—ooh, I don’t know. 

[Biz laughs.] 

Other—I mean, I don’t know! I don’t know that I ever thought of it as, “I am a parent and so I understand it like this.” But I just really felt—I felt very connected to understanding what it’s like to be pregnant? So I actually had a baby very young. Not married. And… with lots of complicated things happening. And so it was very interesting to think about my mom in that position? At the same age? 

00:34:51

Biz 

Host

Wouldn’t it have been helpful to know at that age?

00:34:54

Crosstalk

Crosstalk

Eve: Yes! That was one of the things—yeah! it would have! That’s a point of contention for us. Yeah. 

Biz: See, like, to me that’s the one! That’s the one right there. Yeah.

00:35:00

Eve 

Guest

That’s one of the points of contention where that was one of the things I just couldn’t believe that they watched me endure this situation as a young person. 

00:35:08

Biz 

Host

Yeah. ‘Cause it’d be different—I mean, not “different.” Everything’s fucking different, right? And we all carrying our own baggage around that we don’t wanna open. But that situation is so unique. So I—I definitely can empathize with [through laughter] that being maybe a little resentful. Right there.

00:35:27

Eve 

Guest

Yeah! Yeah! And I don’t even know if I’ve ever been able to really articulate it to my mom as well as I just did or we just did together. Because I get so upset. It’s very hard for me—

00:35:37

Biz 

Host

Of course!

00:35:39

Eve 

Guest

—to explain why that particular thing—and she says, in her own defense, she says that she was so triggered?

00:35:48

Biz 

Host

Oh, I’m sure. I’m sure.

00:35:50

Eve 

Guest

And that she sort of shut down? And so I took it as disapproval. I thought she was being mad at—she was mad at me and ashamed of me and annoyed with this whole situation. And she says she was so triggered by all—this whole secret that was now back in her face or the experience was back in her face. That she was shut down. So.

00:36:13

Biz 

Host

Doesn’t it suck being an adult and having to like… hear those things and understand that they’re adults and then simultaneously having your own kids that are gonna be adults? Like, I do wish—plenty of people probably do walk through the world like this! But like— [Laughs.] But not us theater majors/social justice/women’s studies minor people.

00:36:37

Eve 

Guest

Yeah—not the—yeah. Not those of us.

00:36:39

Biz 

Host

Not this special—

00:36:40

Eve 

Guest

Such open minds.

00:36:41

Biz 

Host

Yeah. With really—mine was at a medical university, so, y’know. Stellar. 

[Eve laughs.]

But that—having to juggle all of those… all the—[makes garbled noises]. Yes, fine, it was triggering for you and you didn’t wanna share anything! But I can also understand why that was doing that to me! And now—aaaah! What am I gonna do with my kids?! Like—

00:37:01

Eve 

Guest

Yeah! And suddenly like, “Oh, should I turn around and tell my daughter everything? Like every piece of the experience from every part of my perspective right now so that she never wonders?” 

00:37:10

Biz 

Host

Yeah. Yeah! Well, that’s fun. So… you are sharing this and it’s still recent. And you—you’ve taken this on for the reasons you’ve listed to have this podcast. You’ve come out with this workbook to help people work through these discoveries. And… but it is invasive! I mean, I just asked you a bunch of questions that are deeply personal. And that’s—that’s like another layer to your emotional sandwich that you’re choking down right now. So… what’s that process been like for you, and… do you think also part of doing the show is to hear others, to kind of help you navigate it?

00:38:01

Eve 

Guest

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I do it as much for me as I do it for anybody else. For sure. And I have—there’s this—there’s a very specific unique experience I am having when I’m in each podcast session with people. And it’s something that only happens then. And when I’m in it I’m like, “Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. This is why I do this. This is why I do this.” Yeah! It has… made me think about… how we—as a society—think about sex and relationships. And marriage and religion.

00:38:33

Crosstalk

Crosstalk

Eve: And morality and society and women!

Biz: And women. [Laughs.] And women! [Laughs.]

00:38:38

Eve 

Guest

So much! Like, I already thought that I thought a lot about those things? But now I am… like, immersed in it all the time in my head. So that has been a constantly sort of shifting concept. And so for us to heal, we gotta talk about these—this—all these concepts. And therefore there needs to be a huge shift way bigger than me. And so I do talk about that and think about that. A lot. 

00:39:09

Biz 

Host

Well that’s fun.

00:39:11

Eve 

Guest

Mm-hm. Mm-hm. [Laughs.]

00:39:13

Biz 

Host

Yeah. The— [Laughs.] Have you—what’s the response been?

00:39:16

Eve 

Guest

It has been… totally fantastic. And especially because it’s almost—the podcast is almost completely like self-perpetuating with people—

00:39:26

Biz 

Host

Oh, I bet.

00:39:28

Eve 

Guest

People contact me and ask to be on it. And so it’s just like, I’ve got a list—y’know, is very long of people to get to. People want to tell their stories and it feels good to tell their stories and it feels good to me to hear their stories. So from that I get lots of emails or messages of just thanks and this is what happened to me and different various parts of—and I get lots of questions and I’m so happy to help field people into the right direction of resources that they need. I help them connect with therapists or I help them find the right support group or just answer sort of questions from all the things I’ve learned now? So in that way it’s been really great. I get some complaints about my politics. 

00:40:08

Biz 

Host

Eh. 

00:40:10

Eve 

Guest

They wish that I would just not do that. 

00:40:12

Biz 

Host

Oh. 

[Eve laughs.]

Share your opinion on your podcast? Oh.

00:40:18

Eve 

Host

Yeah. They had to stop listening. Um—

00:40:21

Biz 

Guest

Well? 

[Eve laughs.]

That’s their choice to do it! They get to stop. [Laughs.] You did not ring their doorbell.

00:40:29

Eve 

Guest

Right. Yeah. I get complaints about politics and then some people are not ready to hear someone talk about these things lightheartedly? And I get that. I totally get that. There’s lots of podcasts that are exploring this issue—or there’s a handful of us—and some of them come from a place that might be better if you’re really raw and fresh in your trauma. That there’s other places. And I’m not always laughing. I’m not making jokes when they’re not appropriate.

00:40:57

Biz 

Host

It makes sense. I mean, I think we used to say if you— [Laughs.] If you’ve just had a kid, you don’t listen to this show.

00:41:04

Eve 

Guest

No, no, no.

00:41:06

Biz 

Host

Because it’s so weird. And it’s not gonna be funny. Right? You need at least one poop in the tub before you listen, because—

[Eve laughs.]

—y’know, otherwise… it just sounds like we’re miserable people. But I—I—I definitely think… there’s always space for approaching difficult conversations like this with humor. And I think it can keep you on course and sane. And some of my best mistakes have come through humor, and because I think it allows a little additional forgiveness there. Right? If you’re not just beating yourself up all the time.

00:41:45

Eve 

Guest

Yeah, absolutely! I think there’s so much there. And there’s—there’s so much humanity in laughter? And absurdity? Right? And that these stories ask for so much humanity and understanding and in the decisions—absurd decisions that people make when they’re young or whatever?

00:42:02

Biz 

Host

Well, yeah, and a lot of times the decisions are—I mean, I’m sure you are discovering that there’s no one way to find yourself in a position to make that choice. And… I am… I’m just gonna guess that that is true. And I think as you say the politics, the cultural systems that are engrained in us about virginity, about childbirth, about roles as… mothers or fathers or what ruins one person’s chance for a great life versus being a bless—I mean, y’know, like we just have all this language that is so… loaded. I appreciate you putting it out there raw and true and honest, all of it. Because I think—like you said—y’know, we should rename the show Talk About It Already! [Laughs.]

00:43:03

Eve 

Guest

Yeah! So much! I mean, that—oh my gosh, yeah! And part of this is all just kind of accidental! It just happens to be that I don’t know how to be anything except myself. And so… so here we are! Like, this is how I—I needed to talk about this, but it’s—you have to handle—you have to deal with me. [Laughs.]

[Biz laughs.] 

And so, like, I get it. It’s like—

00:43:24

Biz 

Host

Ta-daaaa! Whee!

00:43:26

Eve 

Guest

I didn’t put it together thinking, “And then we’ll laugh about it!” 

00:43:28

Biz 

Host

No. No. [Laughs.] Well, I enjoy dealing with you.

00:43:32

Eve 

Guest

Oh, I’m having a great time. Let’s never stop.

00:43:35

Biz 

Host

Let’s never stop! Never stop! Gabe has to slumber party!

00:43:40

Eve 

Guest

Marathon episode! Marathon episode! 

[Both laugh.]

00:43:44

Biz 

Host

Eve? I so appreciate you coming on. And talking to me about this and letting me ask you deeply personal questions, some of which will make it onto this show and sorry everybody—some of which I’ll take to my grave. Which is my next podcast, All The Things Biz Took To Her Grave. [Laughs.]

00:44:04

Eve 

Guest

Oh my gosh. Compilation episode. 

00:44:06

Biz 

Host

Ohhh! We’re gonna make sure that everyone can not only find out more about Eve’s podcast—Everything’s Relative—but on that website, they have some wonderful links to resources. Not only all the books of the people that she has spoken to or referenced, as well as a list of resources that are helpful. Including this new workbook that she now has out that will be incredibly helpful. Thank you! Thank you so much, Eve!

00:44:39

Eve 

Guest

Oh my gosh, thank you!

00:44:41

Music

Music

“Ones and Zeroes” by “Awesome.” Steady, driving electric guitar with drum and woodwinds.

[Music fades out.]

00:44:58

Music

Promo

Cheerful ukulele with whistling plays in background.

00:44:59

Biz 

Promo

One Bad Mother is supported in part by HelloFresh. Skip the trips to the grocery store and count on HelloFresh to make home cooking easy, fun, and affordable! Which is why it’s America’s #1 Meal Kit. Guys, I—we just went on a trip. Which we have not done in a very long time. And I had it set up where HelloFresh is gonna be delivering when we got back! So I didn’t have to stress out about having to get to the store while dealing with the unpacking and emotional unpacking that happens. HelloFresh has completely saved my time coming home from a trip. It has also saved me on those weeks where there’s just too much going on with the kids and mine and Stefan’s lives. [Laughs.] Y’know. Wednesday. Go to HelloFresh.com/badmother16 and use code “badmother16” for up to 16 free meals and 3 free gifts. That’s HelloFresh.com/badmother16 and code “badmother16.” 

00:46:12

Music

Promo

Inspirational keyboard music plays in background.

00:46:13

Biz 

Host

One Bad Mother is supported in part by Grove. Did you know that only 9% of plastic actually gets recycled, no matter how much we put in our recycling bin? That’s depressing. At Grove Collaborative, they believe it’s time to ditch single-use plastics for good. Hear, hear! This is something we’ve talked about on the show before—how do we eliminate single-use products and just make better environmentally-friendly choices, especially once kids get into our house? It is very easy to go down all the different rabbit holes on the internet trying to find well-researched, thoughtful, environmentally-friendly, cruelty-free products. But you can just go to Grove and they’ve done that all for you! With excellent reviews and excellent ratings. Go to Grove.com/badmother today to get a free gift set worth up to $50 with your first order. Plus, shipping is fast and free. Get started right now at Grove.com/badmother. Grove.com/badmother. 

00:47:23

Theresa

Host

Hey, you know what it’s time for! This week’s genius and fails! This is the part of the show where we share our genius moment of the week, as well as our failures, and feel better about ourselves by hearing yours. You can share some of your own by calling 206-350-9485. That’s 206-350-9485.

00:47:43

Biz 

Host

Genius fail time. Genius me.

00:47:46

Clip

Clip

[Dramatic, swelling music in background.]

Biz: Wow! Oh my God! Oh my God! I saw what you did! Oh my God! I’m paying attention! Wow! You, mom, are a genius. Oh my God, that’s fucking genius!

00:47:59

Biz 

Host

Okay. So the last day of our vacation trip—I love that I’m calling it “vacation,” guys. This is such a… not—it was not that, per se. From this perspective. But it was whatever. Not—you all know what I mean. The last day, we get to the airport. We’re all settled in, ready to get on our flight. It’s cancelled. We’re not gonna be at the airport like five more hours and then we’re gonna be doing lots of like late-night hopping flights—I mean, it’s not good news. [Laughs.] Okay? And everybody, like I said, had been doing really well. Ehhh. “I don’t wanna—” Everybody, the whining starts. And my genius simply was—I said, “Everybody is allowed to complain from right here where we are at this gate until we reach the Starbucks,” which was like… maybe five or six gates down the terminal. And I said, “Whatever you wanna say.” So they did. They complained. We complained. I hate complaining! Complaining makes me wanna complain! It makes me feel like I can’t control things that I—oh! When you complain it’s, aah! And we did. And we got a Starbucks and we stopped. So there ya go. They got to do it, but they knew there was gonna be a cap to it. A little complaining cap. 

00:49:20

Caller

Caller

[Answering machine beeps.]

Hi, Biz and Theresa! I am calling with a genius. I said yes! I said yes. When my in-laws offered to take my two-and-a-half-year-old for the weekend and have a sleepover and Grandma and Grandpa’s. So… right now, I am about to pick up food from my favorite food place. My husband’s at an interview for the next few hours, and I get to sit home, eat my delicious food, and watch some trash TV! Maybe I’ll even take a bath! With some wine! It doesn’t matter what I do. I can choose. Because you know what?

[Biz laughs.] 

Today, I am a Self. Might not be tomorrow or the next day, but at least today, I am a Self and I get to do whatever the hell I want to! Y’all are doing a great job. Thank you so much for this show. It has been a godsend for the entire time I have been a parent.

[Biz laughs.] 

Have a good day!

00:50:18

Biz 

Host

Oh my god. You are a genius. Saying yes! Saying yes! Why this is a genius is it’s really hard to do! It’s not easy! And we all think it’s really gonna be easy. We all think, “Oh, when I have kids, the moment somebody wants to take those children they can have them.” But it’s not always that easy! [Laughs.] It’s not! It’s very complicated sometimes. And so saying yes is so good. It is such a genius. And I think you are doing an amazing job. Really good job. Failures.

00:50:54

Clip

Clip

[Dramatic orchestral music plays in the background.]

Theresa: [In a voice akin to the Wicked Witch of the West] Fail. Fail. Fail. FAIL!

[Timpani with foot pedal engaged for humorous effect.]

Biz: [Calmly] You suck!

00:51:01

Biz 

Host

Fail me, me. Okay! Ellis doesn’t eat a lot of stuff. Not for dietary restrictions, just ‘cause he’s picky, picky, picky, picky. And we sort of forgot about that, y’know, ‘cause we haven’t gone anywhere in two and a half years. And when you are traveling, you tend to have to eat out. ‘Cause we didn’t do Airbnb’s this time. We weren’t in one place long enough to do an Airbnb where we would’ve gotten groceries. So we were kind of smart enough—Stefan walked over to the Trader Joe’s, which wasn’t necessarily close but it was a nice walk—to get some things for Ellis. Some crackers. Some yogurt that we know they like and some bananas and some, like, Trader Joe O’s. None of these things are like dinner. I mean, they are, and they were— [Laughs.] But it wasn’t until like the last day we were going to visit some friends and they were like, “What would Ellis like to eat?” And I was like, “Do you have peanut butter and jelly?” And then Stefan and I were like, “Why the hell did we not even bring peanut butter and jelly? Why did we not get—” This is all Ellis eats! “Why did we not have that for lunch?” That kid lived on French fries and cucumbers. That is what that kid ate out at restaurants. Places in Oregon apparently don’t sell plain pasta. I’m not sure why. Every place we went? No pasta. Anyhoo. We forgot what our kid ate. Anywhere. So that—that made it a little frustrating. 

00:52:33

Caller

Caller

[Answering machine beeps.]

This is a laundry fail. So laundry shark. Just trying to always be doing laundry. I’m running in and out of the laundry room between meetings, and I’ve got a load in the dryer, a load in the washer, a load that needs to go in. I’m like, “Okay. Pull my stuff out. Load up the washer. Walk away.”

[Biz laughs.] 

 And like twenty minutes later, the washer starts making this horrible beeping alarm noise that I’ve never heard before out of the washer. So I get off my call, go and check. I just forgot a step. I took my clothes out of the washer and put it in the dryer. Put them in the bin. Then I put the new clothes into the washer, but I never removed the old clothes! I just put two giant, like, heavy comforters—

[Biz laughs.] 

—in on top of a full load of completely-washed laundry, turned it on, and walked away. So I had to like… take these comforters out. They were like sopping wet and dripping. Like, two hands pulling ‘em out of the top-load washer, trying to wring them out. Water’s dripping everywhere. I’ve got nowhere to put them but a laundry basket, which has holes in it. So there was water all over my floor. And just… I can’t believe that I just missed the step. I don’t know. I’m tired, y’all. 

[Biz laughs.] 

But I’m still doing a good job and the laundry will get washed, probably, eventually. Right? Right.

00:54:11

Biz 

Host

[Sings Jaws theme song.] Laundry shark! I love laundry shark. I just—I miss shark parenting, because that is all we’re doing. But I—yeah. Yes. Yes! There, my friend, you are doing a horrible job at laundry. In fact, I feel like I should call somebody and notify them that we have got a parent doing a horrible job at laundry. They are forgetting really obvious things, like taking wet clothes out and putting them in dryers. [Gasps.] They are gonna kick you out of the PTA! You are gonna get your Mom Shark Laundry Card taken away! You are no longer a laundry shark! You’re doing a horrible, horrible job with laundry. Oh. I hope you didn’t sleep all week. 

00:55:05

Music

Music

“Mom Song” by Adira Amram. Mellow piano music with lyrics.

You are the greatest mom I’ve ever known.

I love you, I love you.

When I have a problem, I call you on the phone.

I love you, I love you.

[Music fades out.]

00:55:28

Promo

Clip

Music: Mellow, funky synth music plays in background.

Speaker 1: Hey! Were you a reader as a kid? Like maybe you read a lot of fantasy novels?

Speaker 2: Or Horse Girl books. We know how it is.

Speaker 1: But now you’re an adult and you miss reading. You’re so busy and you can’t figure out how to get back into books. 

Speaker 2: We are Reading Glasses, and we’re here to help.

Speaker 1: Yeah! We’ll give you advice to figure out what books you love or learn to stop reading books you don’t even like!

Speaker 2: We’re really big proponents of dumping that book. 

Speaker 1: Dump! That! Book!

Speaker 2: But most importantly, we’ll help you fall back in love with reading. Reading Glasses—every Thursday on Maximum Fun. 

00:56:06

Promo

Clip

Music: "Money Won't Pay," by bo en (feat. Augustus). Upbeat, cheerful music.

 Rachel McElroy: Congratulations! You’ve won a ticket to attend an exclusive opportunity in a relaxing environment with two lovers. [Laughs.] 

Griffin McElroy: Wow! Well, this sounds like a sort of… proposition of sorts, but really it’s an ad for our podcast, Wonderful! It’s a show we do here on Maximum Fun where we talk about things that we like and things that we’re into.

Rachel: I’m Rachel McElroy and you just heard Griffin McElroy and we are excited for you to join us as we talk about movies and music and books!

Griffin: Things like sneezing. Or… the idea of rain.

[Both laugh.]

Rachel: Can you get news or information you can use?

[Simultaneously]

Rachel: I don’t think so!

Griffin: Absolutely you cannot!

Griffin: Because we’re here to talk to you about pumpernickel bread.

Rachel: You can find new episodes on Wednesdays.

Griffin: [Extreeeme announcer voice] So catch th—catch the waaaave!

00:56:53

Biz 

Host

Alright, everybody. Let’s settle in… and let’s—let’s listen to a mom have a breakdown.

00:56:59

Caller

Caller

[Answering machine beeps.] 

Hi, One Bad Mother! I’m calling with a rant. I’m not gonna cry. I’m not going to cry. 

[Biz laughs.] 

Why do I have to be in charge of every fucking person’s emotions? I have a five-and-a-half-year-old. I have a almost-four-year-old. And I have—somehow, a very happy baby who is—

[Biz laughs.] 

—ten months old. And then I have a spouse who is unemployed thanks to a layoff, and I feel like I have to not only manage all of the huge emotions of the fucking kids, and toddlers, but also… another grown goddamn person. And I did some self-care. I got a fucking therapist. But all she does is tell me how I need to find time away. To be able to do self-care. And I’m like, “Do you understand? My self-care is you! My self-care is actually doing this. My self-care is doing therapy for thirty minutes every-other week. This is my self-care. I can’t… I can’t do other self-care.” I just want one person who’s not a laughing ten-month-old—

[Biz laughs.] 

—to fucking just… help! Just help. I just want one damn person who can actually walk. And verbalize. 

[Biz laughs.] 

I just… I just… goddammit. [Sighs.] This is very, very profanity-laced and I’m sorry.

[Biz laughs.] 

I just—I’m so sorry of having to manage an adult’s emotions. And two small children’s emotions. And I never have time for my own emotions. And it sucks real fucking bad. Thank you so much for having this [through laughter] hotline ‘cause I needed it. I love the show. Have a good night! I’ll continue to just manage emotions. 

[Biz laughs.] 

00:59:38

Biz 

Host

Okay. First of all, you’re doing an amazing job. You—you’re doing just a remarkable job. Yeah, I—what do we call it? Like, a sponge. It’s like we’re sponges for all the emotions of the people in our house. And what sucks is that I mean obviously… it’s really hard for kids to navigate that. I mean, they are gonna… vomit emotions all over you all the time. And they’re gonna demand that you’re gonna be their emotional regulator and that’s really hard and every kid is different and their emotional needs are different and that’s a lot to be having to think about and juggle. And when you’re absorbing them, when you’re the sponge, that’s taking away energy or you can think of it as putting another, like, brick on your back. Right? And you don’t really realize how heavy it’s getting until it’s too late. ‘Til you’ve run out of room or you can’t move. 

And then it can be very easy for the other adults in our household—without intentional. Without doing it intentionally. To—[Laughs.] To contribute to that! Y’know, like, before kids for a lot of us, we were able to be the, y’know, emotional balance for our partners. And then when kids come, it’s just like all the other conversations we don’t have ‘cause we don’t think to have them. We don’t talk about rebalancing that emotional shift with our partner. When we don’t do that, we wind up in this situation where one of us is—is just carrying more emotional weight than the other. And again, I don’t think in most cases it’s intentional. It’s just… residual. It’s residual from the time before! 

And—ohhh! You’re doing so amazing going to therapy. And I know that right now, the finding the time for yourself is not helpful. And you’re—it’s your therapy. You’re welcome to say, “Can we not do that? Because that’s not helpful right now. I need help setting boundaries. Or learning how to set emotional boundaries. Or learning how to better communicate with the people in my house who can communicate. How to set these boundaries or what I need versus taking time.” ‘Cause taking time is—I am so far in this game. And taking time is still a joke. When there are kids in your house. 

If you are the one who is getting interrupted the most, then taking time short of getting in a car and going out for milk and not coming back for three days, you’re not gonna find it very easily. So you’re doing a good job not discrediting that the therapy is important. Also, I just wanna say that I see you. You’re doing a remarkable job. And… it’s not easy. And everything that you are feeling is 100% correct. That you are right. And it sucks. And I am sorry. And you are doing an amazing job. 

01:03:07

Biz 

Host

Alright, everybody! Oh! I… love speaking to people like Eve, ‘cause it reminds me that I just love speaking to people. What an amazing experience. And it’s such a reminder that there are parts of our lives that are not within our control. Like when we are children. It makes me think about the decisions we make that we think are the best that we can make at the time. And that it sucks that they may not match up with what our kids wished we had decided or what we wished our parents had decided. I mean, that—that’s nothing new! Right? That is a real thing that sits with us. And it’s hard not to let those sorts of situations drive us nuts or make us wanna beat ourselves up or beat somebody else up, but I think humor and grace and… patience—which I just saw Eve demonstrate so well—will help us as we all navigate these—these new discoveries. Or our own choices that we make. Basically, don’t feel like shit. [Laughs.] It’s all I’m trying to say. You got enough going on! Don’t feel like shit. You’re doing an amazing job. You really, really are. And I will talk to you next week. Bye!

01:04:39

Music

Music

“Mama Blues” by Cornbread Ted and the Butterbeans. Strumming acoustic guitar with harmonica and lyrics.

I got the lowdown momma blues

Got the the lowdown momma blues

Gots the lowdown momma blues

The lowdown momma blues. 

Gots the lowdown momma blues

Got the lowdown momma blues

You know that’s right.

[Music fades.]

01:05:04

Biz 

Host

We’d like to thank MaxFun; our producer, Gabe Mara; our husbands, Stefan Lawrence and Jesse Thorn; our perfect children, who provide us with inspiration to say all these horrible things; and of course, you, our listeners. To find out more about the songs you heard on today’s podcast and more about the show, please go to MaximumFun.org/onebadmother. For information about live shows, our book and press, please check out OneBadMotherPodcast.com.

01:05:33

Theresa

Host

One Bad Mother is a member of the Maximum Fun family of podcasts. To support the show go to MaximumFun.org/join.

[Music resumes for a while before fading out.]

01:05:55

Music

Transition

A cheerful ukulele chord.

01:05:56

Speaker 1

Guest

MaximumFun.org.

01:05:58

Speaker 2

Guest

Comedy and culture.

01:05:59

Speaker 3

Guest

Artist owned—

01:06:01

Speaker 4

Guest

—Audience supported.