TRANSCRIPT One Bad Mother Episode 429: Some of the Most Beautiful Flowers Are Late Bloomers, with Doree Shafrir

00:00:00

Biz Ellis

Host

Hi. I’m Biz.

00:00:01

Theresa Thorn

Host

And I’m Theresa.

00:00:02

Biz

Host

Due to the pandemic, we bring you One Bad Mother straight from our homes—including such interruptions as: children! Animal noises! And more! So let’s all get a little closer while we have to be so far apart. And remember—we are doing a good job.

00:00:20

Music

Music

“Summon the Rawk” by Kevin MacLeod. Driving electric guitar and heavy drums.

[Continues through dialogue.]

00:00:25

Biz

Host

This week on One Bad Mother­—some of the most beautiful flowers are late bloomers. We talk to Doree Shafrir about her new memoir, Thanks for Waiting. Plus, Biz nailed Halloween!

00:00:37

Crosstalk

Crosstalk

Biz and caller: Wooooo!

00:00:40

Caller

Caller

The kids are back in school!

[Biz whoops.]

And I signed everybody up for flu shots the week. Which is making me feel like an extra genius, because that means that hopefully, hopefully, hopefully when the shots come out for kids under twelve, it’s not gonna interact with the flu shot ‘cause they’ll have already had that for a month. So… y’know. Things are looking pretty good. All things considered. And, uh, I am so grateful for this show and you guys are doing just the best job. Bye.

00:01:14

Biz

Host

Wooo! I like to—no, look. Yes. Kids have been back in school for a while. But to be honest, I know this feels like this is a call coming late in the game, but I like to think that this call is not coming late in the game. And that every day parents are sticking their heads out of their car windows after drop-off and yelling, “Wooow! The kids are back in school!” I still feel that way. I still—[Laughs.] A month and a half in—still feel the euphoria of, “Wooow! The kids are back in school! Oh, yeah!” And then I remembered that at any moment that could change. With a positive case. Or, y’know, maybe you have little children so just having half of your household back in school is a thing. But there’s still a—whatever! Wooo! And also, good job getting you and your kids flu vaccines. Because now the vaccine has been approved! [Singing] Do-do-do-do-do-do-do-dooo! [Regular voice] Ellis is very mad I’ve decided—I signed Ellis up to get their first vaccine towards the end of November based on the slots available to me. And yesterday I picked them up from school and they were like, “[Sighs.] Why do I have to wait so long to get my vaccine? Everybody is getting their vaccine next week! Everybody!” And I’m like, “What a world we live in.” But Ellis remembers the flu vaccine as being really, really painful. And so I do like the idea of spreading it out and going ahead and getting that flu shot so that you don’t have, like, y’know. Two sore arms. Or, y’know, heaven forbid you give—the kid has a reaction to the COVID one and they get sick for like a day or two, on top of like… the flu shot. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah! Good job! Spreading ‘em out! Very good job. 

Speaking of good jobs—it’s time to say thank you!

00:03:25

Music

Music

Heavy electric guitar and driving percussion overlaid with “Ohh, oh-oh, oh-oh” and “Hey-ey-ey-ey-ey-ey” lyrics.

00:03:39

Biz

Host

Thank you! Thank you, vaccine makers! I mean, hot dog! Thank you for taking the time to do the research and to do the trials to make sure that vaccines would be safe for kids between the ages of 5 and 11. And now, after all of your hard research and all of your hard, like, investigating and trials and trying things out. Looking at the data. Now it is available to us, and I appreciate you and it. And I wanna go ahead and thank all the doctors and nurses and volunteers who are gonna be sticking kids under 11. If you stick my kid, they will definitely get their money’s worth. But I’m pretty sure the vaccine’s free, so I’m really sorry. [Laughs.] ‘Cause no one’s getting their money’s worth from the yelling and the paint peeling from the wall from even the imminent threat of getting poked. So man oh man, thank you. 

Thank you to all those people who were gonna be out volunteering to help roll out those vaccines to the elementary school set. I see you. I appreciate you. It’s gonna be a lot of work. And I just continue to appreciate everyone out there who is helping to try and stop the spread of misinformation and instead just show everybody that this can be safe and that this can be helpful to all of us. Thank you, thank you. 

Thank you to everyone in the medical profession for staying open. [Laughs.] And not walking away. Closing your doors. Same goes for you, teachers! Thank you for not leaving us. And sticking around. I for sure see you. And you are amazing. And you know what? A special shoutout to school counselors. We got—I mean, and it’s not just school counselors. A lot of schools don’t have school counselors. So the teachers and the administration have to take on that role of really helping so many kids readjust to stepping back into school. I know it’s been a couple of months, but guys—two years, essentially, of not being in classrooms. I mean, I got a seventh grader and their last time in a school building, they were in elementary school. And then it’s just this leap to middle school. And that’s a big two years that ya kinda missed there in the ol’ social development area around peers. 

And that’s true for all ages, so thank you, again, to teachers and school counselors and nurses and—and all of you who are working with our kids, helping them through it. We’re entering the holiday season. It’s a great time to say thank you to all of the different volunteers and services that are out there making sure that food scarcity is not something that has to be a concern during these times of year. Well, really, ever. Let’s all just remember that, y’know, yay, food banks! Thank you for continuing to donate and volunteer to food banks. That is critical. And thank you to all those programs who organize Secret Santas and the Angel Christmas Tree. You sign up, you give gifts to a family that needs a little help this year. I love that stuff. Thank you for doing that. More thank-you’s every week, right here, on One Bad Mother. [Laughs.] 

00:07:15

Biz

Host

Speaking of holidays, Halloween has passed. And I gotta tell ya—I nailed it. I’m not even gonna start with the costume. I’m not even gonna start with sad mom witch. I’m going right to—at the school, I was the little coordinator for the school Halloween, which we got to have back. Live on campus. Even though it was outside. It was a crazy, big, outdoor creepy carnival maze. I had to figure out how to get 400 people through this maze and follow COVID protocol. But I did it. I figured it out. And all the families were great. Nobody got whiny about having to sign up for a slot or stand in line or any of that. And it was fun! 

And then the next day was officially Halloween, and Stefan and I—for the first time in a very, very long time—did a Halloween thing. We were—I think I’ve mentioned this—we were gonna do Jaws. Cavity Island, instead of Amity Island. We had a big billboard that is, y’know, shark attack but it’s actually candy shark attack from the movie. I was Chief Brody. Kids would come up and I would say, “Thank goodness you’re here. There’s been a shark spotted in the neighborhood. There’s been a shark spotted in this yard.” Older kids, it was just that. “Quick, come get your candy! It’s a candy shark and it will attack people who have candy!” And then Stefan would run out in this absurd shark costume and be like, “Barr, arr, arr, arr, arr, arr!” And we had the Jaws theme song playing. Little kids—when the littles came, it would be like, “Oh my gosh, there’s been a shark spotted. Can you help me find the shark?” And Stefan would just be like roaming. [Laughs.] Behind me in the back. And then sometimes would be like, “Where? Behind me? I don’t see him! What? That’s just a tree!” And then, “Oh, you were so brave! Here’s some candy!” 

Then, Ellis wanted to do it. ‘Cause—oh, by the way. Raiden went out for trick-or-treating to a friend’s house. They went with a posse! [Laughs.] A gaggle! A gang of tweens! At someone else’s house. And went trick-or-treating. And that was the—that was a big first. So Ellis was like, “I want to be Chief Brody.” And we let Ellis. And Ellis was great! At being Chief Brody! Which was so nice! Just like—no one had a meltdown. Everybody had a nice time. It was great! 

And it’s something that has always been a thing that Stefan and I have had so much fun doing together and I can remember before kids we swore it would—we would never let that fall to the wayside. And it really has been about… mm, eight years since we’ve been able to do something really without one of us always juggling a baby or a kid or a kid’s crying or somebody has to go somewhere. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And y’know, it really felt like we were almost back? Whatever “back” is? Even if it felt like we were a little late to getting back? Which I think ties in nicely to what we’re gonna talk about with our guest, Doree Shafrir, about her new memoir, Thanks for Waiting: The Joy (& Weirdness) of Being a Late Bloomer.

00:10:38

Music

Music

Banjo strums; cheerful banjo music continues through dialogue.

00:10:39

Theresa

Host

Please—take a moment to remember: If you’re friends of the hosts of One Bad Mother, you should assume that when we talk about other moms, we’re talking about you.

00:10:46

Biz

Host

If you are married to the host of One Bad Mother, we definitely are talking about you.

00:10:50

Theresa

Host

Nothing we say constitutes professional parenting advice.

00:10:53

Biz

Host

Biz and Theresa’s children are brilliant, lovely, and exceedingly extraordinary.

00:10:57

Theresa

Host

Nothing said on this podcast about them implies otherwise.

[Banjo music fades out.] 

[Biz and Doree repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss the weekly topic.]

00:11:04

Music

Promo

Mellow, down-tempo guitar with light drums plays in background.

00:11:05

Biz

Promo

One Bad Mother is supported in part by Dipsea. It’s time to seek out pleasure in every area in your life, from how you start your mornings to how you wind down at night, and everything in-between. You deserve to enjoy it all. Look—Dipsea Stories is an app full of sexy audio stories. Which allows you to close your eyes and let yourself get lost in a world where only good things happen! I say we take back car line! What are you doing in car line while you’re waiting on those kids? I say that we allow Dipsea to help us grab our moments of pleasure where we can. For listeners of the show, Dipsea is offering an extended 30-day free trial when you go to DipseaStories.com/badmother. That’s 30 days of full access for free when you go to D-I-P-S-E-AStories.com/badmother. DipseaStories.com/badmother. 

[Music fades out.]

00:12:11

Biz

Host

This week, I am very excited to welcome back Doree Shafrir, who is a writer and podcaster. Her first novel, Startup, was published by Little, Brown in 2017 and her memoir, Thanks for Waiting: The Joy (& Weirdness) of Being a Late Bloomer was published by Ballantine in June. She is the cohost of Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves, and of Matt & Doree’s Eggcellent Adventure, a podcast about navigating infertility and the IVF process. She has also written about culture, women’s issues, parenting, media, and celebrity for publications including The Cut, Vox, Romper, The New York Times, and Slate. And was formerly an editor at Buzzfeed and Rolling Stone. She lives in Los Angeles, and you may remember her from way back in the before times in 2018 when she and her cohost Kate were on the podcast to talk about Forever35. [Singing] Welcome, Doreeee!

00:13:12

Doree Shafrir

Guest

Thank you so much! Gosh!

[Biz laughs.] 

It was really 2018, wasn’t it?

00:13:17

Biz

Host

It was 2018. I didn’t even look for the episode number. I was going through my notes and I saw the date and I said, “I don’t wanna know. I don’t wanna know what the number—2018… is now a long time ago.”

00:13:33

Doree

Guest

Yeah. It might as well have been 2005. 

00:13:35

Biz

Host

It might as well have been 1992. A great—

00:13:39

Doree

Guest

A year—a year I vaguely remember. [Laughs.] 

00:13:41

Biz

Host

Yeah. Vaguely. Yep. I was pretty cool in 1992. 

[Doree sighs.]

Welcome back! Welcome back! It’s so nice to see you!

00:13:49

Doree

Guest

Thank you so much! It’s so nice to be here! Thanks for having me back!

00:13:53

Biz

Host

Before we get in to the memoir, I would like to ask you something that’s probably changed since 2018—who lives in your house?

[Doree laughs.] 

00:14:04

Doree

Guest

I live there with my husband, our dog, and our two-and-a-half-year-old son! 

[Biz screams.]

Aaaah!

00:14:14

Biz

Host

I read a little of the book. I know that was a journey. [Laughs.] 

00:14:20

Doree

Guest

That’s putting it mildly. Mm-hm.

00:14:24

Biz

Host

You know it’s been a journey when you have enough to write a memoir. Like that—[Laughs.] 

00:14:27

Doree

Guest

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. No, I mean, I think in 2018 I was in a real… real down… it was a real down moment for me in terms of fertility stuff. I was just like, “This is… this sucks. And this is never gonna work.” So I ended up—but I ended up getting pregnant. It must’ve been a few months later. So.

00:14:52

Biz

Host

Yeah. That was—yeah. Don’t go back and listen to that one, guys. No, I’m just kidding.

[Both laugh.]

But I gotta—[sighs.] How are you doing with a two-and-a-half-year-old in your house after—wow, that—ya nailed that timing, didn’t you? With the pandemic. I mean, you got some quality time. In there. With the baby. How—how are—how are you?

[Doree laughs.] 

00:15:17

Doree

Guest

Y’know, it’s so funny because my son wasn’t even a year old when the pandemic started. He wasn’t walking. He was like ten months old. He was eleven months old when the pandemic started. And now he’s like a real person. Like, he’s a kid! 

00:15:32

Biz

Host

He talks and has opinions!

00:15:34

Doree

Guest

Yes! And… y’know, for me—who’s 44—like… the pandemic—yes, it seems like a long time. But in terms of the amount of time relative to the rest of my life—

[Biz laughs.] 

—it’s like not—you know what I mean? It’s like, I’m not a different person. And my son is a completely different person. And people who haven’t seen him since, y’know, before lockdown are like, “What?!” And I think it’s also like this bizarre marker of time. Because they’re like, “Wait a second. He’s two and a half? In my mind, he’s eternally six months old!” And it’s like, “No, no, no! Time has gone on!” [Laughs.] 

00:16:13

Biz

Host

Yeah! Can I ask—how sick are you of hearing that? Because I say that—like, when school started back up and I arrive with my youngest at school—who went from kindergarten to second grade—and there are all these parents who, when we all met two years ago, were either pregnant or just had a baby. And so I’m seeing them and I’m like—I’m doing that! I’m like, “Oh my god! That is a person now!” And I think—so how annoying is that now? Do you—I mean, it’s probably cute the first time, where you’re like, “Yeah, look at him! Look how different he is now!”

[Doree laughs.] 

But like—after a while—

00:16:56

Doree

Guest

I mean, I don’t know. I wouldn’t say it’s annoying? Because… it is sometimes good to just have that perspective. Because also, like, I was in the house with him for quite some time. And so I didn’t see those incremental changes. So I know he is different now, obviously, and when I look at pictures of him from, y’know, a year and a half ago I’m like, “Whoa, that is a different person.” But, y’know. It happens so gradually when you’re in it. And so it is—it is kind of fun sometimes to see people who haven’t seen him for so long. ‘Cause it is jarring! And I do the same thing! I do the same thing with friends who—I’m like, “Wait a second. You were pregnant—and that’s like a—” ‘Cause that kid is like a year and a half now! Y’know? And then you’re like, “Oh.”

00:17:49

Biz

Host

Yeah. Or like—and again, with all the tweens and teens that I have lurking about this house—it’s like, “Whoa! Wow! Somebody hit you with the puberty stick and went to town!” Like, where you’re like, “I saw you and now I—wow!” And I feel like actually that’s just gotta be so fucked up for kids who of that age. How about this? All kids… are having a super fucked up experiences right now. Okay. But this is making me think of something related to your book. So. Okay. The new memoir, Thanks For Waiting: The Joy (& Weirdness) of Being a Late Bloomer. I’m gonna probably rudely nutshell it by saying it’s—[Laughs.] 

00:18:32

Doree

Guest

Go for it.

00:18:33

Biz

Host

It’s essentially looking at these milestones in relation to our age milestones that we’re supposed to be hitting. And… what your experiences were like when you just stopped hitting those milestones. And I really wanna talk about the memoir. But in the time that I’ve been thinking about milestones—and I do wanna talk to you in particular about those types of pressures as a kid, how they started, where those were planted—I’m also now suddenly thinking about something that wouldn’t be in the book, which is—when you’ve got a kid—when a kid shows up in your house—milestones can become a big thing. And they can become a big, like, self-judgment, judge others, like, marker. Like, “What do you mean, yours slept through the night? What do you mean yours is still walking? What do you mean yours is potty trained?” Right? Like—and it’s—but—so here’s my question! Do you think that everybody being home… which—if it didn’t drive you off a cliff—do you think that eased—did you find that that eased those types of milestone moments? Because you weren’t—or did it make it worse ‘cause you couldn’t see other kids that were all over the place?

00:19:55

Doree

Guest

So it was actually both. I remember I was in a music class with Henry right before lockdown. And I remember once one of the other moms turning to me and being like, “So when did he start crawling?” She had this just, like rapid-fire sort of, “When did he start doing this?”

00:20:17

Biz

Host

“I don’t know how to talk to people!” [Laughs.] 

00:20:19

Doree

Guest

Yeah! And—no, but this was before lockdown! This was before—

00:20:21

Biz

Host

No! But I mean, like—yeah! But when you have a baby, you sometimes forget those skills. So it’s a little like, [blabs] “I—baby milestone—baby—blah, blah, blah.” [Laughs.] 

00:20:26

Doree

Guest

No, exactly! And I was sort of like, “Uh…” I was like frozen. Didn’t know what to say. And then I was like, “Oh, fuck. It’s gonna be—y’know—five more years of people like this just constantly barraging me with questions.” And so then to be in lockdown and to not be around other people—there was something really nice about that! That there—y’know. There was nothing—I didn’t have to deal with any of that! By the same token, Henry had a speech delay. And—

00:20:56

Biz

Host

How would you know? [Laughs.] 

00:20:58

Doree

Guest

I literally didn’t! Because he’s our first kid. And y’know, I also—like, I do try to be the parent who’s like, “Kids will do things on their own time.” In general. Now, I do think that that sometimes gets a little problematic when kids are not neurotypical. Because sometimes you do need intervention and it’s hard to know!
 

[Biz laughs.] 

Like, am I just being that psycho parent who’s like, “Oh my god, he didn’t hit his milestone! Aah!” Or is there like an actual issue that needs to be addressed here?

00:21:31

Biz

Host

Or am I the opposite, right? Where I’m the parent who’s like, “No, I promise! I’m so cool! My kids are gonna be fine!” Right? Like—

[Doree laughs.] 

There’s—we get all the extremes. Right. 

00:21:40

Doree

Guest

Right. So with Henry—y’know, he really wasn’t talking. He had a few words. And some words that he had made up to represent other words. And I was kinda like, “Okay.” And we could understand how he was communicating with us. And so I was like, “Okay. He’s communicating, even if he doesn’t have a vocabulary.” Then like a month or so before he turned two, I remember we did have a playground playdate with a couple of my friends who have kids around Henry’s age. One of them was speaking in full sentences?

[Biz laughs.] 

And I was like, “…Okay.”

00:22:16

Biz

Host

“To quote the Bard—" Yeah. [Laughs.] 

00:22:18

Doree

Guest

Right. Literally. [Laughs.] And then the other one wasn’t—he wasn’t speaking quite in full sentences, but he was like… talking. And I was like, “Hmm. Okay.” And then we had also just started doing a playgroup—a weekly playground. And I wasn’t going to be able to continue over the summer. And the teacher kind of pulled me aside and she was like, “I do want to recommend that, y’know, Henry at least get evaluated.” And I was like, totally—at that point we had already, y’know, started the process? But it—that was actually kind of validating for me. Because I was like, “Okay.” This was the one area where I was like, “I actually think I do need to talk to someone.” But it was totally because of the pandemic that I didn’t pick up on it for quite some time. But now—y’know, he’s been in speech therapy for a few months and now he’s talking. He’s talking, talking, talking. 

00:23:16

Biz

Host

Talking, talking, talking. That’s great. 

00:23:18

Doree

Guest

Yeah. But—yes. So definitely positives and—I don’t know. I don’t wanna say, like, negatives. But it was just like—I had different reactions to the experience of milestones in particular, as regards to the pandemic. 

00:23:33

Biz

Host

Let’s talk about milestones in relation to you. Because—and, I mean, I’m gonna say it. Women. Because I think a lot of the things that you struggled with in your book—well, you didn’t struggle in the book. But in life. [Laughs.] I—especially when it shifted into pregnant—marriage, pregnancy, birth, motherhood—a lot of messages and things that we all think we’re supposed to… like or be good at or due by or… y’know. So I wanna—so I am gonna say “women.” In relation to this book. Because there are awful milestones for men, too. So let’s just—don’t worry. But that’s not the memoir! So I wanna start with… where you start! Which is sort of when you were growing up as a kid. And suddenly you’ve got siblings. And not just siblings, but a sister. And this benchmarking that starts young. Take us through some of that. 

00:24:40

Doree

Guest

Yeah. Y’know, I—so I’m the oldest of three. And my brother is three years younger than me and my sister is seven years younger. But, y’know, I do feel like—and I was kind of a precocious child? Like, I write about this in the book. I was always branded “gifted”, quote-unquote.

[Biz laughs.] 

And, y’know. 

00:25:01

Biz

Host

Which in those days—I was, too. Which in those ages—‘cause I’m 47—so in those ages it was like, “Uh, we probably would’ve been called something else now.”

[Doree laughs.] 

But, y’know, it would’ve been diagnosed differently. But ours was basically, “Give that kid some problems to solve in a room over there.” Right? Like—

00:25:18

Doree

Guest

Literally. It was like, “Okay, take them out of the classroom for two hours a week.” And it was like, “Okay. Um…” So—

[Biz laughs.] 

But I do feel like my parents—my mom, especially, was like obsessed with how early I had done things? And with constant—and kind of still constantly brings it up? And I’m like…

[Biz laughs.] 

00:25:42

Biz

Host

Oh yeah, how’s having a kid helped that? [Laughs.] 

00:25:46

Doree

Guest

Yeah! But I’m also kind of like, “I’ve done other things!” Like—[Laughs.] 

00:25:50

Biz

Host

No. You walked really early! That time that you ate that cracker!
 

[Doree laughs.] 

Long before every—yeah.

00:25:58

Doree

Guest

Yeah! So that’s a little, like… “Okay. Well I guess I did know the alphabet young.” [Laughs.] 

[Biz laughs.] 

“That’s had a lot of bearing on the rest of my life.” [Laughs.] So—

00:26:10

Biz

Host

Is it on your resume? Is it—okay. Good. Yeah.

00:26:12

Doree

Guest

So—y’know, I do—I do feel like I just sort of internalized a lot of that? As like, “Oh, it’s good to do things first. It’s good to be the fastest. It’s good to be the quickest. And the smartest.” And all that kind of stuff. And like, y’know, I don’t blame my parents for any of this. I think everyone is always just doing the best they can? And, y’know. My parents had three kids. [Laughs.] So. [Laughs.] 

00:26:39

Biz

Host

Yeah. Bye-bye! Bye-bye!

00:26:41

Doree

Guest

I have one and I can barely [through laughter] keep it together. So I’m like—

00:26:44

Biz

Host

And they were people, as well. With whatever things they were dealing with.

00:26:49

Doree

Guest

Exactly. 

00:26:51

Biz

Host

So—yeah. Yeah. Do—yeah. So fair point. [Laughs.] 

00:26:54

Doree

Guest

Yes. So yeah. So I do just, like, kinda wanna qualify. But I do think that I… like I said, I internalized a lot of that. Whether or not my parents realized that that was what they were doing. Y’know. And it took me a long time to sort of unlearn that. And also I think that my feeling like I wasn’t hitting milestones as an adult was sort of exacerbated by this feeling of like, “Oh, well fuck. I used to be so ahead!”

00:27:26

Biz

Host

I used to be. I know what you’re talking about. Yeah.

00:27:28

Doree

Guest

So it got a little—it got a little complicated.

00:27:31

Biz

Host

Well and you also talk a little bit about, like, you were off to summer camp. And there was this notion of, like, learning what it meant to “be a girl.” Or be a—right? Like, these milestones. ‘Cause milestones, I think—we’re using “milestones,” but I have to say I think it’s not just about those markers. Like—it’s about… expectations. And I think that that’s… those come in so many different forms for everybody.

00:28:05

Doree

Guest

Yes. 

00:28:07

Biz

Host

But there’s that notion of… the expectations of what a “girl” is. Which then ties in to what a teenager girl is. Which ties in to what a twenty-something and a—all mixed in with the other messages that we’re getting. So was there a moment when you were writing the book where you’re going through sort of the timeline for yourself that really struck a nerve where you were like, “Oh, god, that was a hard time. I was really caught up in—“ Like, as you reflect back on.

00:28:44

Doree

Guest

Yeah. I mean—[Laughs.] 

[Biz laughs.] 

The whole book? [Laughs.] 

00:28:48

Biz

Host

The whole book? Yeah! [Laughs.] Fair.

00:28:50

Doree

Guest

I mean, I… feel like I went—I went into writing a memoir very naively. Y’know, I obviously—I had written a book. I had written a novel before. I knew the process of writing a book. But what I had not—and I—y’know, and I’ve written so many personal essays and I’ve podcasted. Like, I’m not not used to putting myself out there. Like, that’s not a problem. But writing a memoir and having to rehash all of these kind of painful episodes in your life over and over again, in writing—[Laughs.] It’s like—

00:29:23

Biz

Host

Yeah! And then have somebody say—and then have people be like, “Oh. Is that what you did?” Or like, “Can you make that better or take that out?” 

00:29:31

Doree

Guest

Well—yeah! And have my editor be like, “I need you to be more vulnerable here.” And I’m like, “I am baring my soul, okay?” [Laughs.] 

00:29:39

Biz

Host

Why did you write this book, Doree? Let’s—we should jump back to that question before we get into what resurfaced for you. When were you like, “You know what I need to do? I think I need to write a book about all of this.” 

00:29:53

Doree

Guest

So this—again. This was my naivety. Okay? So picture it. I finally get pregnant. I proceed to have, like, a horrible first trimester of debilitating nausea where I can’t get out of bed. And then the clouds sort of part and by the middle of my second trimester? I’m feeling great!

[Biz laughs.] 

Like, I’m ready to take on the world! And at that point I was like, “I should write a book.” [Laughs.] 

00:30:23

Biz

Host

Yeah. Nothing’s gonna change! [Laughs.] 

00:30:26

Doree

Guest

Nothing’s gonna change. Nothing’s gonna stop me. Like, I got this all under control. 

[Biz laughs.] 

And so I put together this proposal—

00:30:35

Biz

Host

“I learned the alphabet when I was really young!” Yeah! [Laughs.] 

00:30:37

Doree

Guest

Exactly! “I can do this! Duh!” So I put together this proposal. My agent sells it. And I start working on it and then—and I think we sold it in February. And then in April, I had a baby. Now… [Laughs.] Again.

00:30:56

Biz

Host

Look, I’m not saying anything. I’m just saying everybody having a—when a baby comes into your house, everyone has a different experience. 

00:31:03

Doree

Guest

Yes. 

00:31:05

Biz

Host

But I will say that when they are very young and your body—if a baby comes into your house through your body—then we tend to—speaking of expectations—think that you’re just bounce back the next day and you’re ready to go. Both mentally and physically. And if there is one takeaway from this show—[Laughs.] From all the years of doing it—that is a lie. It’s not even a myth. It’s just a flat-out lie. 

00:31:38

Doree

Guest

It’s a flat-out lie. And I’m so glad that you brought up the mental aspect of it, too? Because in my head, I think I’d been like, “Okay, I know physically I might not feel so great for a few weeks.” But I didn’t think about the fact that mentally I was gonna be pretty out of it. And added to the fact that I ended up having an emergency c-section and basically could barely get out of—again—get out of bed because I had no stomach muscles. [Laughs.] 

00:32:09

Biz

Host

You had a surgery!

00:32:10

Doree

Guest

Right! I’d had major surgery—

00:32:12

Crosstalk

Crosstalk

Doree: —where my organs were removed from my body and a baby!

Biz: And a baby! [Laughs.] And a baby! 

00:32:16

Doree

Guest

And then breastfeeding was really hard for me and it was just all these things. And so finishing this book that I had sold became, like, number three thousand on my list of things to do. And then… I would say around the time that I stopped breastfeeding? Which was when Henry was about seven months old? That was when I finally started to feel like some of the mental fog was clearing. But really it took that long to even start—

00:32:49

Biz

Host

I’m—I’m still. 

00:32:50

Doree

Guest

Yeah, no, exactly! Like, I don’t even—I feel like around when he turned two I did really start feeling like “myself,” quote-unquote? But when I stopped breastfeeding was kind of the beginning of, like—

00:33:02

Biz

Host

Well, it’s—it’s—it’s… I hate—I’m gonna say I hate something you just said. That notion of “back” or “my same self” or “feeling like my old self.” It’s—I have found that that is a setup. Right? To then feel like the old Lucy, ball out, like, later, right? Like, “But it’s a signed contract! It’s a signed document!” But the moment you stop breastfeeding is symbolic, I think, mentally of a detachment of some kind. Like, it’s a little—it’s a little regaining of… Self. Y’know? Now, not a lot! But it’s a little! And then like, two is another big moment of like, there’s a little more independence and it’s not—but like—yes. Like, it’s all like one step forward, two steps back kind of thing? But I totally get the, like… “Okay, your brain—you have more lucid moments than more ‘why did I put the peanut butter in the freezer?’ moments.” Y’know? Like—yeah.

00:34:05

Doree

Guest

Totally. And just having to think about my boobs all the time! 

00:34:08

Biz

Host

I know! 

[Doree laughs.] 

No one wants to do that! It’s like, all the time! 

00:34:13

Doree

Guest

Such a drag! So anyway—yes. So then I was like, “Okay. I need to just really start working on this book again.” So I sent—sorry this is so long-winded. But what ended up happening was I sent my editor about a hundred pages, and she was kind of like, “Mmm…” [Laughs.] 

[Biz laughs.] 

00:34:31

Biz

Host

You’re like, “Baby, baby, baby, baby. Tired, tired, tired, tired. Tired. Where are my keys?”

00:34:38

Doree

Guest

I mean… kind of! And so I kept trying to work on it. It wasn’t—it was supposed to be a book of essays, also. I’d sold it as a book of essays. And the finally, around, like, May, I was like, “I don’t know what I’m gonna do. I don’t think I’m ever going to be able to write this. I might just have to give back my advance, rip up the contract, and be done with it.” And so my sort of—my Hail Mary was I reached out to this woman who is a developmental editor. Like, an outside editor. And I said, “Hey, do you have any time to work with me? I’m desperate.” And she said, “Yes. I actually have six weeks from mid-July to end of August that I can work with you.” So I sent her my manuscript and she—and I was—I was fully prepared for her to be like, “You know what? You’re right. This is not salvageable.”

[Biz laughs.] 

Like, “Sorry.” And instead she said, “Y’know, this—I don’t think this is a book of essays. I think this is a memoir.” And I was like, “Okay.” Like, I had not thought I was going to write a memoir. I thought I was going to write a book of loosely-connected essays around a theme. [Laughs.] And suddenly—

00:35:51

Biz

Host

That is a different model. Yeah.

00:35:52

Doree

Guest

That is a different model. So suddenly I had to, y’know. I had to come up with a narrative and it’s a very different book. And so I completely reworked it into a memoir in six weeks. 

00:36:04

Biz

Host

Wow.

00:36:05

Doree

Guest

And then—which was crazy. And then sent it to my editor, who was like, “Okay. Like, this—” She was basically like, “Okay. This I can work with.” [Laughs.] 

00:36:14

Biz

Host

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah! [Laughs.] 

00:36:18

Doree

Guest

So if I think back, y’know, I really was working on it the hardest those six weeks. It was like the height of the pandemic last summer. Like, I wasn’t leaving my house. What was I doing? And so… I think I was able to just sort of focus. Then, in the midst of revisions, my final revisions? My husband got COVID. [Laughs.] 

[Biz gasps.]

00:36:42

Biz

Host

Oh, god! How dare he? [Laughs.] 

00:36:47

Doree

Guest

And that was—yeah. That was just… not something I… had been anticipating? And y’know, we were fortunate enough to have a nanny for most of the pandemic and so that was why I was even able to get any work done. ‘Cause my husband was also working full-time on a set. So he was not even—he was not available for childcare. And now when he got COVID, he really wasn’t available for childcare. [Laughs.] And our nanny wasn’t coming, obviously, because someone had COVID in the house. [Laughs.] 

[Biz laughs.] 

So that was just an insane—truly insane two weeks. Where I just—I don’t even—I don’t know how I finished it. But, y’know.

00:37:30

Biz

Host

Ya did it!

00:37:31

Doree

Guest

I did it! 

00:37:32

Biz

Host

Ya did it!

00:37:33

Doree

Guest

I did it. 

00:37:34

Biz

Host

Well so… let’s go back to the question of the process of looking back. Right? Like, the process of reliving this. I mean, it’s… I think it’s actually kind of fascinating to… be on the other side of this reflection, but with a kid. Now. And all that comes with that. And like—I guess I’d like to sort of end on hearing—hear you talk a little bit about what you can feel at least today. [Laughs.] ‘Cause it changes all the time. What you’re taking away from this now. Like, to be a late bloomer… to—I mean, are milestones still important but not in the sense of when you hit them? Or, like… what’s your takeaway from this at this point? 

00:38:23

Doree

Guest

Yeah. Well, I think one of my biggest takeaways has been… developing so much more empathy for my younger self. 

00:38:33

Biz

Host

Ohhh. You know what? That’s hard to do. 

00:38:35

Doree

Guest

Uh-huh.

00:38:37

Biz

Host

Can I tell you? That’s—that’s really… really hard. And I—and now I’m gonna interrupt you again. Because it is so hard. Because I think it’s—I wonder, sometimes, if it’s almost easier—I can forgive really young. I can forgive tween and teen and all those mistakes. But the twenties and the thirties and maybe even two years ago? Right? Like, there are—

[Doree laughs.] 

—there are moments where I still really beat myself up. For… for things. That felt right at the time. So yeah! That’s hard to do! How are you—are you doing it? Are you—

00:39:15

Doree

Guest

I mean, I think I had to write a memoir that—

[Biz laughs.] 

—was really hard to write in order to do it! Because writing the memoir helped me. And this is something I say on Forever35 all the time. But it really helped me reframe the narrative of my own life? Kind of? Y’know? All these stories I had been telling myself about myself? I was able to look at—with, like, a little bit of perspective. And just from a different place. And I was like, “Oh. Okay.” Like, I just had so much more, like I said, empathy for that person I used to be who was, like, young and confused and, like… didn’t know what the fuck was going on. [Laughs.] 

00:39:57

Biz

Host

Yeah! Well—or is trying to follow a playbook that’s not really written for anybody! Y’know?

00:40:05

Doree

Guest

Yes! Exactly. Exactly. So that’s—that’s been one big takeaway. I think the other takeaway is like… if having milestones is something that brings you comfort? Then by all means, like, have those milestones in mind! But I do think—I would love for it to just become more of an individual thing, not… something where we feel we quote-unquote “should” be doing things at a certain time because of these invisible pressures that we’re feeling? And so for me, that just meant doing a lot of introspection? And… y’know. I think as someone who—it’s funny, because I’m not really a people-pleaser? But I do feel like I feel peer pressure? And I have bad FOMO. And so—

[Biz laughs.] 

Kind of letting that go? Has been—I think has been healthy for me. But hard. For sure. 

00:41:02

Biz

Host

It’s gonna be—I think what it’s gonna wind up proving to be is incredibly helpful as you move forward with kids in your house. As a parent.

00:41:12

Doree

Guest

I hope so.

00:41:13

Biz

Host

I hope so, too. I mean—and it’s—because that is… y’know, everybody’s experience is different and it’s good and it’s bad and it’s both, all at the same time. And you get to have both all at the same time. But like… to already have a little built-in forgiveness? For yourself? 

00:41:31

Doree

Guest

Yeah! 

00:41:32

Biz

Host

That’s a gift. That like… y’know, I think—I know I’m always still trying to remind myself and work on. And I love the idea of a spin. And I’m just gonna say—before I say goodbye to you—one of my favorite parts in this book is you—you and your partner, Matt, were like… really, really—I’m gonna say “struggling” with the infertility. Not, per se, the infertility but the whole process of like—

00:41:58

Doree

Guest

Yes. Yes.

00:41:59

Biz

Host

And there’s this moment where he says to you, “Well, what if we don’t have kids? What if we have dogs?” Y’know, and you’re like, “I always wanted to grow up and have a big piece of land with dogs on it!” And like, just how that moment of changing the story a little bit for yourself? Like… made such a difference? And I just—I want to tell you how much I appreciate you sharing, in particular, that moment.

00:42:26

Doree

Guest

Oh, thank you.

00:42:28

Biz

Host

Because… it’s—there are a lot of other moments in this memoir? But I just… I liked that exchange between the two of you, and I really liked that reminder? That, y’know. When those milestone or those “what we’re supposed to” pressures are hitting, it’s okay to remember the other milestones we kinda want it to have. And that those are okay, too. So—and valid. So. I—not only do I appreciate you sharing that, but all that you shared in—

00:42:58

Doree

Guest

Oh, thank you.

00:42:59

Biz

Host

—this memoir. And congratulations. Again.

00:43:03

Doree

Guest

Thank you so much.

00:43:04

Biz

Host

And we will make sure—everybody is ready for my joke—you all know where to buy books.

[Doree laughs.] 

But we will still link you up where you can find out more about Thanks for Waiting: The Joy (& Weirdness) of Being a Late Bloomer. We’ll also link you up to where you can find out if you aren’t already listening to Forever35. As well as where you can find out more about Doree. Thank you so much for joining us!

00:43:28

Doree

Guest

Oh my gosh. Thank you. This was so fun.

00:43:30

Biz

Host

We will hopefully talk to you again! Third time’s the charm! You are doing a great job.

00:43:36

Doree

Guest

Thank you. 

00:43:37

Music

Music

“Ones and Zeroes” by “Awesome.” Steady, driving electric guitar with drum and woodwinds.

[Music fades out.]

00:43:54

Music

Promo

Inspirational keyboard music plays in background.

00:43:55

Biz

Promo

One Bad Mother is supported in part by StoryWorth. This holiday season, give your loved ones a gift that makes them feel special and unique—just like the relationship you share! Gift them StoryWorth. I’ve talked about StoryWorth. This is an awesome gift idea. Every week, StoryWorth emails your relative or friend a thought-provoking question of your choice, from a huge pool of possible options. After one year, StoryWorth will compile all of your loved ones’ stories, including photos, into a beautiful keepsake book. It is a wonderful opportunity for us to collect and gather family stories, friends’ stories, just stories that maybe we don’t have the clearest memory of anymore? [Laughs.] As we get older. And it’s a great thing to pass down to other generations. Go to StoryWorth.com/badmother and save $10 on your first purchase. That’s StoryWorth.com/badmother to save $10 on your first purchase. 

[Music fades out.]

00:44:59

Music

Promo

Cheerful ukulele with whistling plays in background.

00:45:00

Biz

Promo

One Bad Mother is supported in part by Billie. The seasons may be changing, but your self-routine care shouldn’t have to! Freshly-shaved skin feels good in any weather. I might have forgone my shaving routines a while ago. And then I got Billie. It actually—[Laughs.] Has made me want to start keeping it neat again! Especially around the ankles, which peek out in my California roll-ups. Don’t suffer another second paying for a pink tax for a bad shave. Go to MyBillie.com/mother to get the best razor you will ever own while supporting the show. Billie is half the price of other razors, plus free shipping—always. Go to MyBillie.com/mother. Spelled MyB-I-L-L-I-E.com/mother. That’s MyBillie.com/mother.

00:45:58

Theresa

Host

Hey, you know what it’s time for! This week’s genius and fails! This is the part of the show where we share our genius moment of the week, as well as our failures, and feel better about ourselves by hearing yours. You can share some of your own by calling 206-350-9485. That’s 206-350-9485.

00:46:18

Biz

Host

[Singing] Genius fail time! Genius fail time! [Regular voice] Genius me, me. 

00:46:23

Clip

Clip

[Dramatic, swelling music in background.]

Biz: Wow! Oh my God! Oh my God! I saw what you did! Oh my God! I’m paying attention! Wow! You, mom, are a genius. Oh my God, that’s fucking genius!

00:46:37

Biz

Host

I will. Okay. It was Monday. The Monday after school Halloween and home Halloween. I was broken and tired. [Laughs.] My little body—my little body was very tired and sore. Stefan took the kids to school. I was alone in the house on the couch, still in sweatpants and a t-shirt, had my coffee. And I thought, “I don’t wanna move.” And like—for a while I haven’t been a big TV watcher recently? No particular reason. I just don’t wanna really sit and commit. But I said, “You know what? CSI: Vegas is back.” Now, before children, I watched a lot of CSI. And then I had children, and I didn’t wanna see another naked, dead woman. [Laughs.] On television. For entertainment. So I stopped watching it. But something in me said, “No, no. This is how you used to recuperate.” [Laughs.] And I found it and I watched four back-to-back episodes of the relaunch of CSI: Vegas. With Grissom and Sara. [Laughs.] And Brass. And a great new cast. And I laid there. And not only did I feel the experience I used to feel pre-kids—like, resting on the couch and chilling out—I felt that it felt so good I just… it was just so nice. I just let myself. It was so good. It was so good, guys! [Laughs.] I felt like a genius.

00:48:17

Caller

Caller

[Answering machine beeps.] 

Hi, Biz and Theresa! This is a genius. I am really, really excited about this and I wanted to share it in case it helps anybody else. So we have been trying to get our six-year-old to memorize her phone number. Our phone number. So that if anything happens—if she gets lost—she knows it. And getting a six-year-old to focus on anything can be a challenge. But! We made our phone number her iPad passcode and she learned it in less than 24 hours. So…

[Biz laughs.] 

That’s my genius. I feel like… the smartest person in the world. And my six-year-old knows her phone number. Alright. Have a good one. Bye.

00:49:02

Biz

Host

Oh… yeah. I… love this genius. And it’s not the first time we’ve had a genius similar to this. But. It’s so good, I felt we needed a reminder. ‘Cause, y’know, we’re way past 400 episodes in. Sometimes ya gotta, like, bring back some of the classics. And—[Laughs.] I just love—I love using technology to really serve us, as parents. And I think you’re a genius for doing this? And this is how I’m gonna get my kids to memorize all sorts of important numbers? Or words. ‘Cause, y’know, you can make it a word. Y’know. Or is that just old—anyway, whatever. You can do it! You are doing a remarkable job. Good. Job. Failures.

00:49:54

Clip

Clip

[Dramatic orchestral music plays in the background.]

Theresa: [In a voice akin to the Wicked Witch of the West] Fail. Fail. Fail. FAIL!

[Timpani with foot pedal engaged for humorous effect.]

Biz: [Calmly] You suck!

00:49:59

Biz

Host

Fail me, me. Okay. This is simple. I’ll keep it simple and sweet. It’s a week after Halloween. We still have a ton of Halloween candy in the house because I bought back some of the kids’ Halloween candy? ‘Cause I mean, Raiden had a pillowcase, for god’s sakes. And the woman next door—[Laughs.] Was calling Ellis over. Clearly they didn’t want to do trick-or-treating, so they just called Ellis and Ellis’s two friends over? And literally dumped bowls of candy in their bag. And we were like, “What’s happening?!” Anyway, so there’s a lot of candy in the house. I bought a bunch. That’s in a bin. That should’ve moved on to somebody’s office. Okay? Or workspace. At this point in time. But it had not. And yesterday—after seven o’clock at night—I am an old lady. Sorry. I am—a mature woman whose body does not process sugar like it once did. And I ate… way too much candy. Last night. This is a full week after Halloween. I ate too much. And then I went to bed, and I—in the middle of the night, the headache. The burgeoning—like, horrible headache started. And I just lay there thinking, “This—yeah. I know what this is. This is the M&Ms. The Reese’s Peanut Butter Cups. The next bag of Peanut M&Ms. Another bag of Peanut M&Ms.” And there were other things that I just shoved the wrappers in my pockets, like, on the couch. That I don’t really remember. It was a lot. And I suffered and it was—and I am to blame. I am to blame.

00:51:43

Caller

Caller

[Answering machine beeps.] 

Hello! I have a fail that no one will give a shit about, so I’m calling you to tell you. Because you will care. Yeah. We were going to—how do I start? We were going to the beach and we were gonna have a little picnic-y snack and just hang out on the beach and play. And I was—[Laughs.] I was packing snacks—

[Biz laughs.] 

Right? So they could picnic and have snackies on the beach. I was putting them all in a reusable bag. This sounds smart so far, right? I had a little—there were like, y’know, salami and little crackers and blah, blah, blah. And so I thought, “Oh, what goes great with that? This little pack of olives that I have!” Well the little pack of olives that I have doesn’t seal, and I literally had it in my hand and was putting them in the bag and going, “This is a bad idea. These are probably gonna spill. This is a bad idea.”

[Biz laughs.] 

Truly, as my hand was reaching in to put them in the bag. And somehow I did it anyway? I’m not really—I couldn’t tell you how that happened. [Laughs.] I don’t know why those synapses didn’t connect. But they didn’t. And so I knew it was a bad idea and I put it in anyway, and needless to say, I mean, everybody knows where this is going—there’s fucking oil. ‘Cause it’s olives in oil? Y’know? Like, those little packs? That you can get?

[Biz laughs.] 

And there’s just oil all over my car. It’s like… obviously in the reusable bag and it like… seeped into the side of the reusable bag ‘cause it’s not like a super plasticky one? It’s more of like a thin one? There’s like oil all over the mats in my car. And it’s not like, “Oh, it’s olive oil.” Like, extra-virgin olive oil? That shit smells like olives—my car is briny now. You know what I’m saying?

[Biz laughs.] 

Um… yeah. I don’t know. That’s that. And also—I mean, along with that, everything that was in the bag got oil on it. So. [Sighs.] I was just thinking, “Oh, so I’m sad about that.” I’m not even sad about it. That’s not what it is. I’m more just like… ugh. 

[Dog barks.]

Oh, fuck, there’s the dog. Yeah. I’m just like… ugh. Y’know? Like, “Oh, I just don’t wanna clean that up” so I’m just not doing—I’m just not doing it. 

[Biz laughs.] 

We’ll see when I do it. But for now I’m just like, “No.” So anyway, that’s my dumb fail. And thank you so much! Bye!

00:54:01

Biz

Host

I could listen to you talk about olives all day. All day! Ohh! There’s so many things to this fail. I especially like the part where you’re like—it’s in your hand, and it’s going in. And you know it’s a mistake. That is a real place. I’ve done—y’know, everybody knows I’ve done it with the water or milk into the coffee bean grinder as opposed to the coffee machine. And I watch myself do it. Like, I watch my hand go forward and I think, “Look at that.” And then I see the water and I go, “That—why is it pouring? Look at it—it’s just going right in there! And I’m not even stopping! I’m just letting it… run its course! I’m just gonna pour it all out, all at once in there.” And that’s like the olives. “Why am I doing this?” 

Y’know, nothing works. When kids get in your house. There’s a part of you that’s maybe forever broken? Or maybe it’s just a broken piece that moves around. Like a transient type of broken? [Laughs.] That shows up in different ways? I like—I—I’m still trying to figure out how so much oil got in so many places. That you—I mean, I understand. I was with you with the small pack that wasn’t resealable. So you put an open bag of olives in. Not a Tupperware container, but a Ziploc. Right? I think you put that in your other bag. But somehow this is… like, all over the car. And all over so many places. I don’t—I don’t know how that happened? But I’m gonna have great dreams tonight imagining, like, how all those steps played out. This is gonna be how I drift off tonight. This is gonna be my sleep meditation. You are doing a horrible job just, y’know what? Just functioning. Just like functioning as—as like, an imitation of the person you once were. [Laughs.] 

00:56:03

Music

Music

“Mom Song” by Adira Amram. Mellow piano music with lyrics.

You are the greatest mom I’ve ever known.

I love you, I love you.

When I have a problem, I call you on the phone.

I love you, I love you.

[Music fades out.]

00:56:28

Promo

Clip

Music: Upbeat, cheerful music.

Dave Hill: Hi, it’s me, Dave Hill—from before—here to tell you about my brand-new show on Maximum Fun, The Dave Hill Goodtime Hour, which combines my old Maximum Fun show—Dave Hill’s Podcasting Incident—with my old radio show—The [Censored] Damn Hill Show—into one new futuristic program from the future. If you like delightful conversation with incredible guests, technical difficulties, and actual phone calls from real life listeners, you’ve just hit a street called Easy. I’m also joined by my incredible cohost, the boy criminal Chris Gersbeck. Say hi, Chris.

Chris Gersbeck: Hey, Dave. It’s really great to—

Dave: [Interrupting.] That’s enough, Chris. And New Jersey chicken rancher, Dez. Say hi, Dez.

Dez: Hey, Dave!

[A chicken bawks.]

Dave: The Dave Hill Goodtime Hour—brand-new episodes every Friday on Maximum Fun.

Chris: Plus, the show’s not even an hour. It’s 90 minutes.

Dez: Take that, stupid rules.

Dave: We nailed it!

[Music ends in a drumroll.]

00:57:17

Promo

Clip

Music: Upbeat, brassy music.

Annabelle Gurwitch: Hi! I’m Annabelle Gurwitch.

Laura House: And I’m Laura House.

Annabelle: And we’re the hosts of Tiny Victories.

Caller 1: My tiny victory is that I sewed that button back on the day after it broke.

Annabelle: We talk about that little thing that you did that’s a big deal to you but nobody else cares. Did you get that Guggenheim Genius Award?

Laura: We don’t wanna hear from you! 

Annabelle: We want little, bitty, tiny victories!

Caller 2: My tiny victory is a tattoo that I added onto this past weekend.

Laura: Let’s talk about it!

Caller 3: My victory is that I’m one year cancer free. But my tiny victory is that I took all of the cushions off the couch, pounded them out, put them back, and it looks so great.

Laura: So, if you’re like us and you wanna celebrate the tiny achievements of ordinary people, listen to Tiny Victories.

Annabelle: It’s on every Monday on Maximum Fun.

[Music fades out.]

00:58:07

Biz

Host

Alright, everyone. Let’s settle down and listen to a mom have a breakdown. 

00:58:13

Caller

Caller

[Answering machine beeps.] 

This is a rant. I’m gonna try really hard not to cry so hard that I’m unintelligible? I’m gonna work at it, but I am crying. So we’ll see if it works. Um… just finished my daughter’s IEP meeting for preschool. And—[sighs.] I’m fine with the fact that she’s using an IEP and is going to preschool. Hopefully. I mean, that’s a different crying rant. I can do that one another day! The one I wanted to do is that parenting is stupid. 

[Biz laughs.] 

And what I mean by that is that I heard she could go to preschool up to four days a week and I work two days a week. I was like, “Oh, that could mean I have a day where—or multiple days—where she’s at school and I’m at home!” But it works out that there aren’t any days of the week that she and I are just at home anymore. Starting in two weeks. I’ve been a stay-at-home parent for twelve—a part-time stay-at-home parent for eighteen months. And I thought I’d be happy! Like, I get time to myself! That’s a good thing, right? I get to be alone and this is why parenting is stupid, ‘cause I need the time to myself. 

[Biz laughs.] 

But the idea that I don’t get any days at home, just her and I, anymore is just making me wanna sob. So that’s where I’m at. [Sobs.] Ohhh. So I’m gonna spend the next two weeks really enjoying the days we have. Before she starts being in—goes to school. When did fucking that happen?

[Biz laughs.] 

Anyway! Thanks for having a Hotline where I can call and cry. Ughhh. Bye. 

00:59:57

Biz

Host

Ohh. You are doing such a good job! Oh my gosh! Mama, you doing such a good job! Oh, so much here! And for you to be clever enough to really pick the correct label, which is, “Parenting is stupid,” is just spot-on. You are right. I—I just… I really love you. And listening to you reminds me of the times where, like, back in the time before. When One Bad Mother used to go do live shows and we’d be in a room with all these, y’know, OBMs. And somebody would share a fail. And like… there was just this collective, like, hug agreement. Like, there was this collective emotional, like—no matter what the fail was—yes, there was some giggles because—I always think of the scene from Castaway where Tom Hanks is working so hard to get that fire to work? And then, like, it goes out. And my sister and I laughed really hard at that moment? And not because we’re monsters, but because of that, like… feeling of trying and it not working! Right? 

So like, the giggles sort of come from that ‘cause we’ve all been there. Plus this like, “Yeah, parenting’s stupid! Yeah, it’s dumb! Yeah, it’s hard!” You—I just… I’m just so reminded of how universal this is. You are not alone. There—this is what—we just got through talking to Doree about this. These, like, expectations of what we’re supposed to be feeling or—“Oh, once you go—once your kids go to preschool, ha! Then you get your life back!” [Laughs.] Okay. Sure. That has yet to happen. There’s that, like, “Oh, you’re finally gonna get some time alone! How exciting!” Well we already know that no one knows what to do with free time anymore. Like, that skill… has left us. 

And this notion that—it just goes back to the whole beginning conversations of this entire lifespan of this show! This notion that it’s supposed to be one or the other. And that is not what it is. You can be absolutely keenly aware of the benefits that having some time to yourself is going to provide. And you can be heartbroken that your baby is going off to school and that you’re not gonna get to spend that same time. Those two things get to exist in the same universe. 

And… you get to have some days where you’re not supposed to feel bad about being okay being by yourself and your kid being in school. And you also get to be okay on the days where you’re beating yourself up for not [judgmentally] taking advantage of your time by yourself! [Laughs.] [Regular voice] I mean, like—it is stupid! It is stupid! It’s all stupid. And you’re doing an amazing job. And the way you feel is exactly the right way for you to feel. You are doing a great job. And I see you. And this Hotline is here for all those other things you listed that might make you cry. You’ll be here for that, too. You are doing a great job. 

01:03:41

Biz

Host

Alright, everybody. Listen up. You’re doing a great job. If we have to be reminded, over and over again, that we get to feel both—whatever “both” is—whether it’s not liking being a parent while at the same time loving being a parent; while not—y’know, like, Doree talks about in her book, not instantly like… instantly feeling that connection? [Laughs.] With her baby when they give her the baby at the hospital? Right? Like—and I had that same experience. But there’s this guilt of feeling like, “I didn’t feel—I’m supposed to, like… whatever!” I dunno. Be BFFs, like, right then. Right? Like, yes, I love my child. That doesn’t mean… I—like, all things have clicked into place. 

And I think that’s true about, like, “Yes, I want my child to go to school. Yes, I can’t wait to have some time for myself.” That doesn’t mean you also want to, like, cling to your child’s leg for the rest of their life! Right? Until they’re walking down the aisle when it’s really weird. From our woo check-in—so excited [through laughter] kids are back in school, all the way through Doree and to our rant call with “I don’t want my kid back in school,” like… this is it! This is what I mean. This is what our caller meant. Parenting is stupid and it’s messy and it’s not what the books say or the TV shows say or what your mother said or what your grandmother said or what some lady on the bus says or what you think you’re supposed to do. It’s each person’s unique journey. Okay? And you’re all doing a really good job. And I will talk to you next week. Byeeee!

01:05:29

Music

Music

“Mama Blues” by Cornbread Ted and the Butterbeans. Strumming acoustic guitar with harmonica and lyrics.

I got the lowdown momma blues

Got the the lowdown momma blues

Gots the lowdown momma blues

The lowdown momma blues. 

Gots the lowdown momma blues

Got the lowdown momma blues

You know that’s right.

[Music fades somewhat, briefly plays in background of dialogue.]

01:05:54

Biz

Host

We’d like to thank MaxFun; our producer, Gabe Mara; our husbands, Stefan Lawrence and Jesse Thorn; our perfect children, who provide us with inspiration to say all these horrible things; and of course, you, our listeners. To find out more about the songs you heard on today’s podcast and more about the show, please go to MaximumFun.org/onebadmother. For information about live shows, our book and press, please check out OneBadMotherPodcast.com.

01:06:23

Theresa

Host

One Bad Mother is a member of the Maximum Fun family of podcasts. To support the show go to MaximumFun.org/donate.

[Music continues for a while before fading out.]

01:06:46

Music

Transition

A cheerful ukulele chord.

01:06:47

Speaker 1

Guest

MaximumFun.org.

01:06:49

Speaker 2

Guest

Comedy and culture.

01:06:50

Speaker 3

Guest

Artist owned—

01:06:51

Speaker 4

Guest

—Audience supported.