Transcript
biz ellis
This is Biz. I’m a part-time working mom with two full-blown kids.
theresa thorn
And I’m Theresa. I have a family business, two young kids, and a toddler.
biz
This is a show about life after giving life. Don’t listen with your kids, ‘cause there will be swears. This… is One Bad Mother.
music
“Summoning the Rawk” by Kevin MacLeod. Driving electric guitar and heavy drums. [Continues through dialogue.]
biz
This week on One Bad Mother—so, you’re home all day with the kids! What’s that like? Plus, Biz is scared of an uncertain future; Theresa is on edge; and we talk to Ann Napolitano about her new novel, Dear Edward.
crosstalk
Biz and Theresa: Wooooo! [Biz extends her ‘woo’ into a song.] [Biz and Theresa repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss their respective weeks.]
biz
Theresa! Before I ask you how you’re doing—
theresa
Yeah.
biz
I’m just gonna shove you aside because there’s something very important. That we need to announce. Max Fun Drive! Is right around the corner! Like, it’s like imminently—
theresa
It’s coming.
crosstalk
Biz: It’s coming up right behind you! Ahhh! What’s that? Theresa: For you. Yeah. [Laughs.]
biz
Back there?! It’s the Max Fun Drive! It’s there! The last two weeks of March—this March! The month that we’re in!
theresa
Yeah!
biz
Yeah! March 16th it starts. This is the time—real quick—all I wanna say is: this is the time you wanna be listening to the shows as they come out. And you want to be on the social media with the One Bad Mothers. Okay? So… Twitter. The Facebook. The Instagram. @onebadmothers! You wanna be on it! [High-pitched singing] ‘Cause we made videos again!
theresa
Yeah. We made videos. They’re really fun. [Biz laughs.] And plus, there’s just other stuff that will be going on? Like, outside of the days that the shows come out? There will also be other stuff on other days, One Bad Mother-related. I mean, the whole point of this is fundraising to support the show and keep the show going? But as part of that, we always make sure to also make it fun and do some like community-building things and… connect with you guys a little more than we normally get a chance to during the course of the year. So there’s always fun stuff going on.
crosstalk
Biz: We basically ignore our children and families for like two weeks. It really is. [Laughs.] So— Theresa: It’s actually true! It is actually true. And then at the end—
theresa
—when it’s over we’re like—
crosstalk
Theresa: Where am I? What am I supposed to be doing right now? [Laughs.] Biz: How’d you get so tall? [Laughs.] You’re really tall!
biz
When did that happen? So Max Fun Drive. Coming up. Keep it on your radar. Theresa? How are you?
theresa
Ohhhh! I— [Biz laughs.] —kind of hate everything today. [Biz laughs.] I’m … feeling agitated.
biz
Oh! Agitated!
theresa
Okay. So… [sighs]. I mean, there isn’t even like that much to say! It’s just that’s where I’m at right now? You guys know! When you get to that place! [Biz laughs.]
crosstalk
Biz: You’re being stung by a thousand bees all the time! Theresa: We have—
theresa
It is! It’s like—or it’s just like the bees are taking turns. You know? Like, there’s a thousand bees. Some of them are being really friendly and I’m feeling like… oh, I’m good with bees! [Biz laughs.] Like, bees—I know how to be calm with bees and keep calm with them. I know what they need. I know what to do with them. But then simultaneously, some other part of the swarm… is… stinging me! Just over and over again! And then they’re gonna take turns.
biz
Yeah!
theresa
So… I’m a little tired. I—I’m—
biz
Tired of bees? [Laughs.]
theresa
Tired of bees. I’m tired of—trying to sleep when there’s bees around me? Um, and not being able to sleep ‘cause it’s hard to sleep when you’re in a swarm? That’s what it’s called—a swarm, right?
crosstalk
Biz: A swarm, oh yeah! I was thinking— Theresa: Yeah! It’s a swarm of bees.
biz
[Laughs.] Is a group of bees the scientific name “a sack of bananas”? [Theresa laughs.] Or—or is it a swarm? It’s one of the two.
theresa
It’s a sack of bees. [Laughs.]
biz
Ohhh ho ho hoo! Don’t upset it!
theresa
Or a swarm of sacks of bananas.
crosstalk
Biz: Could be a swarm of bananas. [Screaming] Ahhhhh! Theresa: A swarm— [Laughs.] Um—
theresa
Either way, you don’t want ‘em near you!
biz
No! No! The—none of this is enjoyable!
theresa
No. So, uh, let’s see. Gracie is about to transfer schools. The only update on that is I think it’s mostly positive. I’m really excited about the new school. I think it’s gonna be really great. But it’s just that transitional moment right now. So there’s—nobody feels like things are normal right now? Like, even the other kids? Everybody’s a little… just… off their normal track. Like, people—nothing is—there’s no routine. Everything is… everything is iffy! Like, there’s no—no—but you can’t—can’t predict how people are gonna be reacting in any given moment. That’s stressful! [Biz laughs.] Really, really stressful.
biz
[Yelling] It’s iffy!
theresa
And then, like—I have a three-year-old and he—he’s like not napping at home anymore. Which… is okay? It’s like not the end of the world? Like, I’ve been through this before. [Biz laughs.] Like, there’s a lot of other stuff going on so it’s not like my primary thing? But he still really needs a nap? Like, really bad? And so… like, yester—like, Saturday I did the thing of—he just didn’t end up napping ‘cause I just couldn’t get him to take a nap. Like, it just didn’t happen and he was a wreck. And then Sunday he was even more of a wreck ‘cause he hadn’t napped on Saturday and so I ended up, like, driving him to get him to go to sleep and then carrying him in and he ended up taking a really late nap, so then he was up really late. So—so I didn’t have—I didn’t have, like, my time last night? Y’know?
crosstalk
Biz: No, I know. I know “the time.” Yeah! Theresa: And I’m kinda used to that time now?
theresa
And so—then… and now it’s day! [Laughs.] [Biz laughs.]
theresa
[Through laughter] So—
biz
Now it’s day, and the bees are swarming.
crosstalk
Theresa: It’s just all that—and none of it—it’s like— Biz: Yeah! No, it’s all that stuff!
theresa
I could tell you all the details but—you guys know! You guys are living this right along with me.
biz
That’s right!
theresa
It’s—if it’s not one thing it’s the other.
biz
Yeah! [Yelling] Damn the other!
theresa
Yeah!
biz
Yeah. No. You’re 100% correct. I like calling it “the case of the ‘ifs.’” Or “a case of the ‘iffys.’”
theresa
It’s iffy. Yeah.
biz
It’s iffy.
theresa
Yeah.
biz
I like that.
theresa
Yeah!
biz
It’s—
theresa
It’s iffy!
biz
Iffy!
theresa
Yeah!
biz
Yeah. Well—I do just want to say—side note, real quick—good job with all that you are doing and handling in terms of Gracie’s school stuff.
theresa
Oh, thanks!
biz
You are doing a good job. Like, being her advocate. And like, it’s a lot of change. Change is scary for some of us. And like… you never know what—it just opens a whole sack of bananas?
theresa
It does.
biz
And yet… you’re doing it.
theresa
I am.
crosstalk
Theresa: Thank you. Biz: And I just wanna say I see you.
theresa
Thank you!
biz
You’re welcome!
theresa
I really appreciate that.
biz
It’s a big deal.
theresa
No, I—that means a lot to me.
biz
Yeah.
theresa
Yes. Thank you. How are you?
biz
I have a case of the iffys.
theresa
Uh-huh.
biz
But it’s— [Laughs.] It’s more about—okay. Alright. You—you might’ve heard that something called the… coronavirus—COVID-19—little thing happening. Right? And, uh, first, I just want to say that a good place for information is the World Health Organization and the CDC.
theresa
Yeah!
biz
These are two really good resources to be going to get questions answered and information you may need. But in terms of the iffy, I find myself in this uncertain place of… is this a flu? Is it… the Black Death? But one thing I feel more certain about than the future of what the virus actually is and will do— [though laughter] is that there’s a really good chance they’re gonna shut down some schools and shit?
theresa
Oh, yeah.
biz
I mean, we’re in California, guys. They’re gonna shut down some stuff. And we’re all gonna have to stay home.
theresa
Hmmm.
biz
And to me? That currently—‘cause I don’t know what to do about the virus! I’ma keep washing my hands!
crosstalk
Theresa: Right! That one isn’t—really on you. Exactly. Yeah. Biz: Yeah! That’s actually—it’s not on me!
biz
I’m just gonna wash my hands and cough into my elbow and do all the hygiene stuff I know I’m supposed to do. Be a little more fervent on “stop picking your nose. Stop picking your nose” on my kids. Right? But like—what I feel fairly certain about is there’s going to be a moment in which we might have to stay home for an extended, unplanned, period of time. [Laughs.] [Through laughter] That’s gonna be a shit-ton scarier than the virus! Uh—and that is in no disrespect to this virus! Okay? And to, like, the—like, the real problems that have come along with this virus for many people in the world. But it does tie in nicely to what we are gonna talk about today, which is—what is it really like when you stay at home… all day… with the kids?
music
Banjo strums; cheerful banjo music continues through dialogue.
theresa
Please—take a moment to remember: If you’re friends of the hosts of One Bad Mother, you should assume that when we talk about other moms, we’re talking about you.
biz
If you are married to the host of One Bad Mother, we definitely are talking about you.
theresa
Nothing we say constitutes professional parenting advice.
biz
Biz and Theresa’s children are brilliant, lovely, and exceedingly extraordinary.
theresa
Nothing said on this podcast about them implies otherwise. [Banjo music fades out.] [Biz and Theresa repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss the weekly topic.]
biz
Theresa. You’re staying home all day with the kids. Whether it is… the choice ‘cause you’re a stay-at-home parent? Whether it is a holiday break? Whether it is… summer? Whether it is… vacation? Pretyt much any time you’re home—like, a weekend. [Laughs.]
crosstalk
Theresa: I was gonna interject that! Yeah! Yeah. I think weekends are— Biz: A weekend! Yeah, I forgot about that one. A weekend. Where—
theresa
—even more—just because, like, if you’re a stay-at-home parent you usually aren’t staying home with your kids all day during the week?
crosstalk
Theresa: Like, you’re doing—you’re doing errands or doing an activity. Yeah. Biz: Maybe you have an activity.
biz
But weekends, it—none of this—I am not including sick days in this.
theresa
Okay.
biz
Just because… sick days sometimes feel like a pass for television all day. Right? Like—or there might be sleeping. The child is not at their full capacity.
theresa
Okay.
biz
Okay? So—
theresa
Got it.
biz
That works as an advantage to me? If my child is not at… full given— [Laughs.] Lawrence-child potential? Then… that doesn’t stress me out as much. So I—I—I would like to not include sick days. If that is alright. [Deep breath, then exclamatory voice] Ohhhh!
theresa
So my only thing about that? Is like… sometimes if you have more than one kid, you’re staying at home all day because one kid is sick, but the other kids are not. But you’re still making the decision we’re just gonna all stay home today.
biz
We’re gonna all stay home. Okay.
theresa
You know what I mean? Like—
biz
Well, that, I think—that is, I think, its own unique thing. So I think that could be included. Okay. So—at least—
crosstalk
Theresa: It’s like any— Biz: 15% of your house is— [Laughs.] at full capacity.
theresa
Yeah. You’re not just like tending to a sick person all day. You’re also doing other—you’re making a plan to be at home all day. Yeah.
biz
Alright. So—you wake up. [Theresa laughs.] They’re gonna be there all day. And then you’re gonna go to sleep. But I wanna—as I was writing that out in my notes, and until they’re with you—you’re all there—until you go to bed. And then I thought, well, that’s not a true statement. Because what is going to bed? Sometimes it’s just having your kids at home all night, possibly waking you up. So you’re not—it’s not like you’re like—ah! End of day.
theresa
Right.
biz
Time for rest and repose.
theresa
Right.
biz
It’s—it could be a complete carnival. All night. So… with that said, I just wanna ask, like—initial thought. Like, your initial instinct. Theresa! You’re staying home all day. With your children. Initial thought!
theresa
Great.
biz
Okay.
theresa
If I’m being honest.
biz
Okay! Okay! That is honest!
theresa
It is—yeah. Can I say why?
biz
Yeah!
theresa
Okay. I… think that… usually when I’m—when I make that decision? Like, I think we’re just gonna stay home all day? It comes to me—as a bit of a relief? Because for me, I—well, I’m kind of a homebody but I also… find it just really challenging to leave the house with my kids? Like, that—that’s hard and being out in the world is anxiety-provoking for me, especially with my kids? And so the idea of staying home? Feels… like—like—it’s like—less energy. It seems—
crosstalk
Theresa: —seems when I think about it as, like— Biz: Right. This is initial—
theresa
Initially, I don’t have to go anywhere. I can just stay in my pajamas. We can do stuff at home. It will be okay. We don’t have to deal with leaving the house and all that that entails. Like, it feels like I’m taking stuff off my plate when I initially think of it. Yes.
biz
When you think of staying home. With the kids. That… makes sense. My initial thought is… [yelling] Oh no!
theresa
Right.
biz
I have the complete opposite. I mean, I—I am sort of a homebody. But I like to be an alone-body.
theresa
Right.
biz
[Laughs.] Like—I—so—my first instinct is… like… no. And the—this is… this is interesting. I wanna say why I think it’s no. And I think it’s because when the kids were younger—Katy Belle is 10, Ellis is 6—so I had a couple years with Katy Belle at home… as—by herself. And then Ellis was a baby and I still had to do stuff with Katy Belle at home for various times—weekends; Stefan travelled a lot; all that stuff. I used to make plans! We would—I had plans for us! We would go out or I’d come up with art projects or I would come up with science experiments. We had bubbles in the backyar—I mean, like, every once in a while I’d walk to the garage and I’m like, oh, I remember we used to do that all the time! [Laughs.] Right? And I think my “oh no!” is that I’ve definitely stopped? My first instinct is not “what shall we do? What fun thing can I plan to do with the kids”? And also… the sort of reality that if I do do all that, one of ‘em’s not gonna wanna do it or they’re gonna complain about it or it’s gonna lead to a fight. Or… it’s just gonna be a lot of work and I’m just gonna tell ‘em to watch TV while I clean it all up. Right? And like— [Theresa laughs.] And so I’m just like—eh… like—yeah! And I have found that… the day—like, even if the night before I’m like, thi—we’re all home, man! This is where we all are! Tomorrow? We are home. It’s Saturday or it’s whatever. That… I… have anxiety a little bit the night before if I don’t feel like we’ve made any sort—like, free-range days? Do not work well! They just don’t. Like, “everybody go do your own thing! We’ll figure it out as we go!” I find causes more trouble.
theresa
Mm-hm.
biz
And… two, when I wake up—even if I wake up thinking—we’re gonna do it! An hour in to the day, I’m like—I’m done! I don’t wanna be near anybody!
theresa
Are they done, too?
crosstalk
Theresa: Or is it just—they’re fine. Interesting. Biz: No, they’re fine. It’s just me.
biz
It’s just me. So…
theresa
‘Cause I feel like I have a little bit of that? Like, I have that—so—the way I was describing what—like, my feelings about it? It does—it’s not really accurate. That’s just my feeling. And so then when we actually do a day like this, I totally have that thing where—it’s not an hour in, it’s usually like a few hours in? That it starts to feel like—ohhh. [Biz laughs.] This is bad! This is very bad. [Biz laughs.] [Through laughter] This is not—we need to go somewhere. And usually the worst part about that is usually with my kids—unless we’ve been really clear from the get-go that at 1PM we are going to do x, y, and z out of the house? My kids—by the time it’s 1PM, they’re like, I’m not going anywhere today. I’m staying home all day. Like, they—they—they’re not ready for that. And it’s a—and it’s a whole thing. So… I have to—I have to plan ahead, too. And… it’s definitely more… I think it’s definitely more them than it is me. Because I [though laughter] still don’t wanna go anywhere. I’m still happy being at home. Like, I can busy myself at home, no problem. But for them, they’ve sort of… started climbing the walls. Like, they might not be… like, conscious of it. But their moods have gone south. Like, they need more—and this is even—I’m not talking about—that we’ve spent all morning on screens.
crosstalk
Theresa: I’m talking about, like— Biz: No! Yeah, just—
theresa
Even if there were no screens all morning, by, like, one o’clock? It’s like people need… real fresh air. Like, really to get—at least go for a long walk. Y’know? Um, or at least play outside for a while. Which makes me think about… like… we are very privileged to live in a place where most of the time, the weather is conducive to going outside in some way, shape, or form!
biz
That is true!
theresa
And there’s plenty of—I mean, like… you guys who have snow days regularly… and have days where you really—
biz
Can’t?
theresa
You really can’t or shouldn’t— [Biz laughs.] —go out unless it’s an emergency, like, I feel like you guys have a special—it’s like—it’s like me just like assuming, well they must know how to do this. [Biz laughs wildly.] Like, they must—‘cause they do this regularly! So they must—
crosstalk
Theresa: But I’m—I have a hunch— Biz: [Sarcastically] They know how to handle that!
theresa
—that like everything in parenting, you—it’s something people get better and better at over time but it’s still—there are some things that are just way fucking harder than other things in parenting, depending on your circumstances.
biz
I don’t think I’m getting better and better at, like—for example—the staying home thing. Like, that’s interesting! Like, I feel—
theresa
But you would if you had to.
crosstalk
Theresa: Like, you would if you— Biz: Right! But, like—
theresa
If you knew that—like if you knew that they’re gonna be home for a couple weeks, you would be like—I need to…
crosstalk
Biz: Well, we say that but we always hear— Theresa: —win this. Like—
biz
—“Summer Break” and I come back like a shell of a person! [Theresa laughs.] Like, I always know what’s—‘cause Spring Break’s just around the corner!
theresa
True.
biz
I got nothing!
theresa
Yeah.
biz
So… listening to you talk about… “I’m happy at home; I can find something to do—it’s the kids,” I feel like—and I feel like this is true for me too, when I think we’re home all day. But I’m—I’m hanging out with like… my roommates. Like, we’re all gonna be… like…
theresa
Yeah!
biz
Hanging out, like—watching movies. Then we’ll all go do our own thing—
theresa
For a little while.
biz
Maybe we’ll—
crosstalk
Theresa: —make a meal together. Yeah. [Laughs.] Biz: —put on a record!
biz
Like, we can read—but I mean, like, everybody’s happy doing their own thing! Yeah! I could stay at home all day with my family if that was the case! But it’s not.
theresa
Yeah.
biz
It’s not. And… there are definitely these windows and phases where they want total opposite things. So let’s say we were to be like—alright, we have to get out of the house. Let’s go to X. One will be like, yes! The other will be like, no. And then it’s like—do you have to do the—well, you’re coming. Right? And then you’re—we’re all miserable again because somebody’s in a Mood. Right? And something that I think I wanna make—
theresa
Or in my case, I can’t—
crosstalk
Theresa: —if it’s just me and there are three people—three kids— Biz: Physically get you—yeah. Yes!
theresa
I can’t make them go on a walk if one of them doesn’t want to. Unless it’s Curtis, in which case I could carry him? But—and I’ve—have to carry Grace and Oscar sometimes in life? But I’m not gonna carry them for a whole walk! I can’t do that.
biz
Yeah! It’s really hard. I feel like—that’s a struggle. Trying to get everybody on the same page.
theresa
Yeah.
biz
It’s a—being home all day with your family makes you really aware of how… you’re all people. With different… desires. And I—
theresa
It’s like the bees, man!
biz
It’s like the bees!
crosstalk
Theresa: Some of the bees are doing one thing. Some of the bees are— [Laughs.] Biz: It’s like, staying—yep. Some of the bees—
biz
Y’know, when it’s—when no one’s staying home, when it’s a school day, everybody’s like—let’s have games! Let’s play games! Blah, blah, blah! Alright. We’re home all day—let’s play games! [Sullen voice] “No.” Or “I wanna play this. I don’t wanna play that.” [High-pitched, frustrated tone] Oh my God! [Regular voice] Like, I find myself… by two o’clock being like—that’s it! I am tired of the yelling. For no reason. I am tired of the “everything is awful.” [Theresa laughs.] Right? Like—blech! It’s not awful! You have—you are like—you—[sullen voice] “I don’t know what to do!” I do! Let’s get garbage bags and go through your room and throw away all your stuff!
theresa
[Through laughter] Oh my god! [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.]
biz
Right? Like—[sullen voice] “No. More.” Something I realized as well— [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.] Something I realized as well is—there’s an assumption that— [Theresa laughs.] —when we say we’re home all day with kids, that it’s just us!
theresa
Right.
biz
It’s not!
crosstalk
Biz and Theresa: Sometimes.
biz
Weekends.
theresa
Yeah.
biz
For example.
theresa
Some weekends.
crosstalk
Theresa: Depending on your family. Biz: Some weekends, depending on your family.
biz
Right. At some point, you’re all there. If you are in a partnered relationship.
theresa
Yeah.
biz
You’re alllll there. And that… adds a different twist.
theresa
Yeah!
biz
To the experience.
theresa
Yeah.
biz
Yeah! Maybe we’ll— [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.] The end!
theresa
The end of that! [Biz laughs.] Tangent.
crosstalk
Theresa: Tangent over. Biz: But like— [Laughs.]
biz
But in reality, it is like… maybe… the—we definitely had days where like Stefan will be like—alright. This weekend, I’m gonna take the kids to do this, this, this, and this! And I’m like, that is great. But by like ten o’clock, there’s been no movement towards this, this, and this. Or… like, it’s been very easily sidetracked into doing that. Right? And then it’s like—it’s getting pretty late! Do they know that there’s a this, this, and that? Are you gonna—lots of times, by like three o’clock, I’ll be like—I feel like the jerk ‘cause like—were you guys gonna—
crosstalk
Biz: —go out? Theresa: Were you still gonna go somewhere? [Laughs.]
biz
And do that thing? And he’ll be like—no. Everybody seems pretty happy around here. And I’m like, I’m not happy around here. I expected you guys to go out! Like, I had some expectat—right? Like—even though I get it, but I’m like… and that’s all about the two of us operating—
theresa
Yeah!
biz
Differently.
theresa
Yes.
biz
In how we see the children’s, like, emotional needs. [Laughs.]
theresa
Right.
biz
Right? In terms of prep, not-prep. Things like that. And that’s fine. I am—but like—[long pause]. That can really throw a monkey wrench in it? Or, like—Stefan and I have had to work really hard on communicating, like… if he says he’s got work to do? When we’re all home? I’m like—I need you to tell me what that means.
theresa
Yeah.
biz
Is that two hours? I’m gonna add an hour to that. Is that, like, you need to be in the house or out of the house—when is that time gonna be? Like—
theresa
That’s really smart.
biz
We have to do—but even then, it—it’s still not perfect! ‘Cause sometimes, I’ll have ot be like—and you have to announce when you’re going to do it. You can’t just wander off ‘cause we’re watching television. I won’t have realized that the worktime has started. [Laughs.] ‘Cause like—when this is over, am I now responsible—right? Like—I feel… it’s very easy for communication to get lost?
theresa
That’s true.
biz
When we’re—
crosstalk
Biz: Allllll… Home. Theresa: When we’re all home. I’m totally with you on that.
biz
Because we’ve—that’s how we get to like the default parent thing. Like, one parent happens to be doing something with the kids and the other parent will just slip away—
theresa
Yeah! Sure!
biz
And then that—and then the parent doing something with the kids is like, well I’m done doing this thing. Am I just… parenting now? Am I—is it just me?
crosstalk
Theresa: Like, do I—Yeah! Do I— Biz: Do I need to set a timer? Yeah.
theresa
Do I come up with something new? Should we…
biz
Yeah! And then I feel like the joke is like—how much longer are you working? And then—
theresa
Or like—are you—
crosstalk
Theresa: Like, ‘cause Jesse—well, ‘cause yeah! Biz: Are you working?! [Laughs.]
theresa
‘Cause Jesse has, like, a home office. And he mostly is working when he’s in there. But sometimes he’s not. Sometimes he just goes in there because we’re doing something else that he’s not involved in, and sometimes I’m a little bit, like… it’s okay if you’re working, but like… are you—if you’re not working, can you like come back? [Laughs.]
biz
Yeah! Because whoever—
crosstalk
Theresa: ‘Cause I’m done. [Laughs.] Biz: —it falls to—
biz
—primary parent-wise in those situations, it’s like, alright. Am I about to have to, like, also… like… come up with… like, being in charge? Of shifting the responsibility as well?
theresa
Yeah.
biz
Or… can we all do it together? Right? Y’know, like—yeah. It is… I think there’s this fantasy of… “We’re all gonna play board games! We’re all gonna have a singalong! We’re all going to the park!” And then reality sets in and it’s like, you guys go to the park. I’m gonna do this thing here that I need to do. Or… maybe three of us are supercompetitive and one of us is not. [In an aside-voice] Stefan. [Regular voice] And so gameplay may not be as much fun. Right? Like, there are—we’ll all go outside but somebody’s got a magazine. [Laughs.] What does that mean? Right? Like—and I think— [Theresa laughs.] Why? [Laughs.]
crosstalk
Theresa: That is— Biz: Right?
theresa
Fucking hilarious. [Biz laughs.]
crosstalk
Biz: Right? Where you’re like— Theresa: “We’re all gonna go outside but somebody’s”—yeah.
biz
But somebody’s got a magazine. [Laughs.] That’s telling a story.
theresa
It is.
biz
Right? And so— [Laughs.]
theresa
We have that, only it’s—we’re all gonna go for a hike to the lake. And somebody brought a book. [Biz laughs.] To read at the lake. [Laughs.]
biz
I know! But— [Laughs.] That is indicating… a separate set of plans.
theresa
It is! It really is.
biz
It’s so—I think… if we were gonna wrap— [Theresa laughs.] —up the discussion of… being home all day with your family, I think we’ve gotta bridge the gap between—yay! It’s a stay-home day! We’re all in our twenties. [Laughs.] That’s how this is gonna go down. And… a lot of communication about expectations from the people in the house that may actually be over twenty. Right? And—
theresa
More than usual.
biz
Right! And so—just to come back to the idea—I just wanna end on this—this very funny story.
theresa
Okay.
biz
I was saying to Stefan—if we were to have to be… like… at home.
theresa
Yeah!
biz
For, like, quote-unquote “quarantine” period, ‘cause schools are shut and work’s shut—whatever. What do you see us doing? Like, what do you—like, what’s one of your ideas? And he was like… okay. I think we would probably do some sort of, like, epic… Rube Goldberg, like, marble run that starts at one side of the house and we work on it all day and it— [Laughs.] And it build—like, it goes through and we do this whole thing! And I was like—that… has—that’s a really good idea. The first idea I had? Was like… movie marathon for three weeks? [Laughs.]
theresa
Yeah.
biz
It’s time to watch every episode of Happy Days— [Theresa laughs.] —ever made. Right? Like— l[Laughs.] just like—I think there’s this image, like, of “We’re all home. Something serious is happening. So we’re all gonna, like, Laura Ingalls out. And like, totally like… bond as a family in a way. And like… really—the kids are gonna understand that like, this isn’t about just watching TV. We’re gonna, like, really—blehhhh do something like life change—and then I’m like, it ain’t gonna be like that at all. We’re going to be so angry at each other in like— [Theresa laughs.] —48 hours. [Laughs.]
music
“Ones and Zeroes” by “Awesome.” Steady, driving electric guitar with drum and woodwinds. [Music fades out.]
music
Laid-back acoustic guitar plays in the background.
theresa
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biz
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theresa
For a limited time, when listeners go to Grove.co/mother, you will get a free five-piece cleaning set from Mrs. Meyers and Grove. That’s a $30 value! So go to Grove.co/mother! [Music slowly fades out.]
clip
Hey, you know what it’s time for! This week’s genius and fails! This is the part of the show where we share our genius moment of the week, as well as our failures, and feel better about ourselves by hearing yours. You can share some of your own by calling 206-350-9485. That’s 206-350-9485.
biz
Genius fail time, Theresa. Genius me!
clip
Music: Dramatic, swelling symphonic music in background. Biz: Wow! Oh my God! Oh my God! I saw what you did! Oh my God! I’m paying attention! Wow! You, mom, are a genius. Oh my God, that’s fucking genius! [Biz and Theresa repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss their respective genius moments of the week.]
theresa
I realized that I don’t really need to tell Oscar to buckle his seatbelt anymore. And this is why this is a genius—there was a time where I was so irritated with how long it would take him to… realize he was in the car.
biz
Yeah.
theresa
Sit down in his seat. Find the seatbelt. Untwist it or whatever it needs, ‘cause it’s still—he has the—like, high-back booster thing? So sometimes it’s twisted. Whatever. And then buckle himself in. And so even when I was trying to be really calm? I would tell him-slash-ask him to buckle his seatbelt, like… ten—ten times. Like, ten different ways. ‘Cause he would als—he would always be talking at the same time about something. And I would say, like, y’know—can you buckle yourself in and then we can talk about it. Or like, strap yourself in! Here we go! We gotta go! I can’t go until you strap yourself in! I have a snack for you! You can’t have it ‘til you strap yourself in! We’re—okay! I hear you? But can you please strap yourself in before—like, just so—and I just got so tired of hearing my own voice and waiting for this to happen. And the—I just started to realize—he just takes a little longer to do it? Than I want him to? But he knows what he needs to do and he does it! So if I just… use that time to… strap Curtis into his carseat and get myself in the car; turn on the car; buckle myself in and, like, plug my phone in or whatever—
biz
Yeah! All the stuff.
theresa
By the time I do all that, the car is on and he knows he needs to be buckled in and he’s always buckled in by then! Like, I don’t need to, like, manage it! I just need—I do need to help him, like, get to the car.
biz
Yeah!
theresa
But like… he knows—like—I—it was like that thing where I was like—oh. He knows what to do. I don’t need to be in—like, I can just shut up!
biz
You tried something different!
theresa
Yeah!
biz
You—what a good job!
crosstalk
Theresa: Yeah. It’s so much better this way, by the way. [Laughs.] Biz: That’s so much better! Yeah.
biz
That’s amazing! Okay. I’m… reading again.
theresa
Oh!
biz
It’s not like, a lot. It’s not like I’m, y’know, I don’t have a stack by the bed? But it all started with, like… uh, the latest Lee Child beat’em’up Jack Reacher book that I really like. And those are all—I’m always like, when one of those come out, they’re just really fun to read. And I like to read them. So I’m able to kind of commit. Then I followed that up with another book—the Elvis Cole Joe Pike series by Robert Crais—and I was like—oh! There’s a new one of those! And I went to the library and I got it and I was like—oh! This is a pleasure to read! Like, when I’m waiting to pick up the kids! Or—y’know? Like, I’ve been reading in different times. Not reading before bed, actually.
theresa
Wow.
biz
I’m reading, like, waiting—if I get to the school a little early. Ten minutes here—
theresa
Like, times where you would be on your phone!
biz
Yes! Times where I would be on my phone, I am instead reading. And I think because I kind of was doing it with two books that, like, I know are comfort zones for me? I then was like—I have this stack of cozy mysteries that—because of a book club that my sister gets me every year. I get cozy sent to me every month! I was like, eh, let’s just see what happens if I keep doing this! And I just keep the book in my purse or in my car like I used to before phones in New York where every time I was waiting in line I had a book. Right? Like… that’s how I used to live!
theresa
Yes!
biz
And I’ve been enjoying it tremendously! And—
crosstalk
Biz: I’ve got the little notice from my phone that was like— Theresa: I really wanna do that.
biz
“Your screentime is down by” like, y’know, “25%” And I was like—that’s great! ‘Cause usually it’s just garbage that I’m doing. Anyhoo! I feel really, really good about it.
theresa
That’s awesome.
biz
Yes. Thank you.
caller
[Answering machine beeps.] Hi, One Bad Mother! I am calling with a genius! Um, and this is the second time I’ve done this so I’m hopoing I didn’t already call the first time— [Theresa laughs.] —but it’s that much of a genius that I am this excited. So often I am… trying to eat my breakfast in the car, taking my son, y’know, wherever. He’s almost two. And instead of eating a granola bar or string cheese I wanted to have actual food? Um, so I tried making oatmeal but… it’s much better when it’s hot and it’s hard to get it to fit in my car without spilling. So I used my little coffee thermos? So it sits in my cupholder? And it keeps it warm the whole time that I’m eating it! And I feel like a genius for having a hot, actual food breakfast on-the-go. You’re doing a great job, and so am I. bye.
biz
I love this!
theresa
Yeah! It’s great!
biz
This is multifunctional, though. This isn’t just, like, about, like, hot oatmeal for you? Which is also—that is really good.
theresa
Yeah.
biz
To have, like, something warm like that in your car? Like, that’s nice in the morning when you’re like bleccch. Right? But it’s also a potential thing for kids! Like… if you also needed to have something war—like—I just realized, like, listening to you I was like—I send soup to school with my kids in a thermos. Why can’t I send oatmeal? To school for their lunch?
theresa
Yeah.
biz
Oh yeah. It’s about to be oatmeal lunch week! [Theresa laughs.] Anyway, you are a genius. Good job taking care of yourself! Good job using, uh, the materials at hand. You are doing… a great job. Failures.
clip
Music: Dramatic, tense orchestral music plays in the background. Theresa: [In a voice akin to the Wicked Witch of the West] Fail. Fail. Fail. FAIL! [Timpani with foot pedal engaged for humorous effect.] Biz: [Calmly] You suck! [Biz and Theresa repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss their respective failures of the week.]
biz
Fail me, Theresa.
theresa
Okay. So I recently talked about on the show that I have been using this book called Calmer, Easier, Happier Parenting and it has been really, really helpful. The fail is, I… thought that I could just do it myself. And Jesse would be able to… just not read the book and kind of just pick up on stuff I was doing and I could just like tell him little tidbits. Um, which he’s really receptive to? But like… it’s not the same as reading the book? And so there have just been some thing—like, there’s things about this approach that are really spec—like, really specifically different from things that we have done in our house? And… I just… it’s like one of those things where I would just—I think I just was too tired. To do the extra-heavy lifting of being, like, let’s talk this through, like, together, as coparents. How we’re going to handle these kinds of things when they come up. I just kind of thought… oh, I’ll just hope for the best. Like, we’ll just figure it out. And yesterday, in the evening, we had like a huge conflict with one of our kids. That Jesse and I were both there for and so we were both handling it in totally different ways that were not conducive. [Laughs.]
biz
Mmmm. Yes.
theresa
And it just made everything soooo much worse, so quickly. And it was so hard for me to… figure out how to walk it back, and at one point I just said to him, like—I’m just gonna ask you to, like, not be part of this anymore? And I’m gonna do it? And he was like—yes. Like—
crosstalk
Theresa: He—he was like—like, we— Biz: Yeah. No, he knew. Yeah.
theresa
We were being good to each other? We just didn’t—we just couldn’t do the thing together. At all. And so he was like, yeah. Sure. Definitely. Like— [Biz laughs.] —whatever—y’know, whatever you think. But it was like, pretty much too late at that point? And so then… he… came home—he had to go out? He had to go to work and then he came home later and I was like, I know we really need to like talk about this? But I’m so tired right now I—like, I can’t. And now I’m just like—I don’t think—-like, I don’t even know when that will be? And so… I think I just have to… have him read the book? I guess? And—but—do you know what I mean? Like, I just—it’s not even—I—it’s not even a fail… exactly? Except for that… I just hate that it has to be so complicated. Like, I just hate—how many steps are involved in this.
crosstalk
Biz: There are a lot of layers. Yeah! There are a lotta layers. Theresa: In getting better at this! Like—
biz
In this “getting better at this” onion. And so—yeah. No, I—I get where the fail is lurking about.
theresa
Yes. Thank you.
biz
Well, you’re doing a horrible job—
crosstalk
Biz: —at trying to make a difference in how you parent. Theresa: Oh, I know. [Laughs.]
biz
You should just use that book the way it was intended and throw it at the door when you’re mad! [Theresa laughs.] It’s dumb, but [goofy laughter] still feel [blows raspberry]. Last night, I bit my tongue. And I bit it like almost…
theresa
Oooh!
biz
Like, almost a little piece of it off.
theresa
Oh my god!
biz
Yeah. It hurt. It hurt so bad. Like, I bit it while eating hot fondue. [Laughs.]
theresa
Ohhhh!
biz
And then I had to stop eating the fondue.
theresa
Yeah!
biz
And… which was sad. ‘Cause I was not yet full of cheese.
theresa
That’s so sad!
biz
And I was like sticking it in a glass of water, like—and his parents were there—
theresa
Oh no.
biz
And I was like—now I’ve just stopped eating and suddenly I’m not like, I’m like sticking things in water and trying to do compresses on it. Y’know. Just to get it to stop—and… uh… it like—I mean, it hurt all night. It was not good. And then… I… like, had to read to the kids and I was like—uh, this is really hard to read to the kids! Right? Accents are hard with a tongue injury! And then this morning I woke up and I was like, tongues are amazing. Look at how it’s, like, healed.
theresa
Oh!
biz
And like, really, like, back and this is good. And then with my very first bite— [Theresa gasps.] —of oatmeal! I did not necessarily bite it? But I did something to it. And it immediately reminded me… you’re not okay.
theresa
Yeah.
biz
And… Uh… it just feels like… it—see—it’s not like it’s like a fail like I’ve, y’know, ruined my children’s life or anything? But like— [Laughs.] It just feels like… another thing?
theresa
Mm-hm.
biz
That makes things a little harder?
theresa
Mm-hm.
biz
Especially things that I enjoy like talking?
theresa
Mm-hm.
biz
And eating.
theresa
Yeah. Sounds like being a person.
biz
Yeah! Being a—a person. Fail. Oh. Tongues! [Theresa laughs.] Who needs ‘em?
caller
[Answering machine beeps.] Hey, Biz! And Theresa. This is Tyler, with a fail. I was gonna call you yesterday because I rolled up to work in my husband’s car without the key I needed to open the entire shop. Um, and was like—goddammit I did it again. Was like, the third time I’ve driven my husband’s car to work and not had my work key. So luckily my husband was off and he just drove me the key and it really [inaudible] whatever. But then today, we switched back? And uh… and my key was still on my husband’s keychain when I drove my car to work. [Theresa laughs quietly.] So I got to work today with no key. Again. And I just… think it’s, like, of course.
biz
Oh, yeah.
theresa
Yeah. You’re just failing all over the place.
biz
Yeah!
theresa
You have… used a… failure key to unlock the… failure offices! [Theresa laughs.] You are doing… it does stink when you’re like—ahhhhh and then it’s the next day and it’s on the keychain. Or it’s in the purse. Or it’s in the other pants or it’s in the—right? Like… you’re doing—y’know—this is all because… you’re trying to be a person in the world. With kids. In your life. So, y’know. You’re doing a horrible job! [Laughs.] Definitely.
music
“Mom Song” by Adira Amram. Mellow piano music with lyrics. You are the greatest mom I’ve ever known. I love you, I love you. When I have a problem, I call you on the phone. I love you, I love you. [Music fades out.]
music
Quiet, jazzy piano music plays in background.
biz
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theresa
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biz
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biz
This week’s interview with Ann Napolitano has a brief discussion about the subject matter of her new book, which involves a plane crash with only one survivor, who is a child. We talk about moving through anxiety as a parent. Hey, Theresa! Let’s call someone today!
music
Upbeat guitar with choral voices.
biz
Theresa. This week, we are talking to Ann Napolitano. Her new novel, Dear Edward, debuted at #2 on the New York Times Bestseller List! She is also the author of the novels A Good Hard Look and Within Arm’s Reach. She received an MFA from New York University. She has taught fiction writing for Brooklyn College’s MFA program; New York University’s School of Continuing and Professional Studies; and for Gotham Writers’ Workshop! She is also the associate editor of One Story Literary magazine. Welcome, Ann!
ann napolitano
Thank you for having me!
biz
Oh, thank you for coming. Everybody should just let everyone know… I know Ann. [All laugh.] She and my sister—Helen Ellis—they have known each other for a very long time. And have been… doing a writer’s workshop together with another author, Hannah Tintini, and they—it’s amazing. That they continue to workshop their books with each other for—how long has it been?
ann
I think 24 years.
biz
Yeah!
theresa
Wow.
biz
I know! It’s—
ann
I know. It’s crazy.
theresa
That’s cool.
biz
It really is! It really [through laughter] is so cool. [Ann laughs.] It’s so cool! Um… alright. Before we get in to all the things we can talk about today, let us ask you—who lives in your house?
ann
My husband lives in my house with me, and then I have two sons. I have a 12-year-old and a 10-year-old.
biz
Oh my god.
crosstalk
Biz: Are you enjoying…? Ann: I don’t have any pets. I’m sorry.
biz
You have what?
ann
I don’t have any pets. I’m sorry.
biz
That’s okay. That’s—it’s okay. [Through laughter] You’ve got enough. [Laughs.] You’ve got—you’ve got tweens in your house, Ann! How’s that going?
ann
I know! I can’t believe it.
biz
Is anybody starting to, like, moustache out? Is that too early to like ‘stache out? [Laughs.]
ann
No, my—my 12-year-old doesn’t have a stache yet, but he grew six inches in the last year.
crosstalk
Theresa: Ohhhhh… my… god. Biz: [Through laughter] Ohhhhh!
ann
He’s 5’11”.
biz
Oh!
theresa
Wow.
ann
He’s 12 years old.
theresa
Wow.
ann
It’s insane.
crosstalk
Biz: That’s— Theresa: Yeah. Ann: Yeah. It’s really weird—
ann
When your kids, like, truly morph? It’s very, very strange.
biz
Whoa. Yeah! I was gonna say—[through laughter] what is that? Like, is it—was it gradual? Or was it like… he just woke up and came out and was like— [Theresa laughs.] [Deep voice] “Mom.” I’m—his voice changed. But I’m like—the six inches, to me, means he’s like shipping off to college tomorrow!
ann
I know! I—when I walk down the street with him and he still want—he still wants to hold my hand? And I’m like, from the back people think I’m walking with like my boyfriend. [Biz laughs.] Like, I know it looks like—it’s like my—still my child. And then he turns around and he has like a baby face.
biz
Babies!
theresa
That’s very sweet.
biz
That is sweet. And… terrifying. Uh—
ann
I know! [Biz laughs.]
biz
I keep—I am gonna derail. I keep thinking about the story when… he was three. And… you were talking about the fact that he didn’t need anything else from you. He’s three! He had announced, y’know, “I don’t need you to open this door for me. I don’t need anything else! I am three. I can do it myself.” And now he’s 12! And—
ann
I know. And he still needs me. [All laugh.]
biz
It’s all a lie!
theresa
Yes! I love it when we prove them wrong!
crosstalk
Biz: [Yelling] You’re wrong! Ann: I know! Over and over again, much to my detriment.
ann
It’s all the work that I [inaudible].
biz
Right.
theresa
True.
biz
You’re like—this is how you open the door, dammit! [All laugh.]
ann
Exactly. Exactly.
biz
Alright. Well let’s talk about Dear Edward. It’s your new novel, and it’s about a boy who’s—[Laughs.] Happy story alert! The only survivor of a plane crash. It is… uh, it’s really a remarkable book and I guess I have to start with—what inspired Dear Edward? What inspired this?
ann
Uh, there was a real—I became obsessed with a story that was in the news, basically, is the origin of it. And… in 2010 there was a real plane crash, um, there was a flight from South Africa down from London and it crashed in Libya. And there was only one survivor, and it was a nine-year-old Dutch boy. And they found him like a half-mile away from the rest of the wreckage? And he was still buckled into his airplane seat.
biz
Whoa.
ann
And he had a punctured lung and a broken leg, but he was otherwise fine? And everyone else in the flight—including his parents and his brother—had died immediately. And, um… it was huge news at the time? Like, no one remembers now because there’s so much that has filled our brains and fallen out the back of it? [Biz laughs.] But, um, but it was like—it was in all the papers. It was—it was completely unavoidable. And I was just—I was immediately… like, obsessed with this story. And with the idea—there was a photo of him in all the articles. One photo of him in his hospital bed? And he was so… beautiful. And so small. And so broken. And… I just thought, like, how can he get out of that hospital bed and walk out of that hospital without his mom and his dad and his brother?
biz
Yeah.
ann
Like, how is that possible and how could he possibly be okay? Ever? Um… and so… in a way, what I tried to do was to—like—create a set of fictional circumstances so that I could prove to myself that there was a way to go through something like that and eventually be okay.
biz
Oh my god. That—[Laughs.]
ann
I know! It sounds really—but I was actually—I’m like—I loved writing this book and it was actually a very joyful writing experience for me? [Biz laughs.] Weirdly enough? Because I had to imagine… what is—what is required in order for a person to be okay after going through something so horrible, is that it requires a lot of kindness from the people around him. And so I spent a long time, like, imagining a very kind world.
biz
Oh. That’s nice.
ann
Yeah.
biz
You’ve got… two kids so I have to… like… ask—because I think it’s pretty normal for a parent to, like, see a story like that or anything. That is… upsetting. Involving a child. And not like going and sitting on their children right away. Right? Like, just…
ann
Yeah.
biz
Sitting on them and being like, that’s it! [Ann laughs.] Locked up! Right? Like—
ann
No more planes. Yep
biz
No more planes! Yeah. No more. In fact, we’re never leaving the house. Enjoy.
ann
Yeah.
biz
So… you said for you, writing this book helped you… imagine this… kind world in which… this boy who survived the plane crash could walk out. How—did it in any way help you—in terms of processing your feelings about your own kids? And… and… what may come their way?
ann
Yeah. I think I was like—I was trying and it—by doing this for this other little boy, I was trying to—I wanted to try and save him. [Laughs.]
biz
Yeah.
ann
By writing this book. And I kind of wanted to save my children before they needed to be saved. It was like I—I needed to believe that if something terrible happened to one or both of my children, that there was a way that they could be okay. Even if I wasn’t there to make it so. [Biz groans loudly and at an escalating pitch.] I know! I know. It sounds terrible.
biz
No, but it’s—it’s great!
theresa
I’m just curious—has writing always been… a conscious… like—exercise in… coping with your own anxiety? Is that a common—‘cause it seems like very… it seems like you are very consciously aware of “I am going to do this—” [Biz laughs.] “—so that I can feel better and like move on with my life?” [Ann laughs.] Um, is that—is that something that you’ve always done? Or is that a new thing for you?
ann
I think I’m more conscious now? Of it? I think I always did it, um, innately? I realized at some point like I my 20s—because I don’t write short stories. I only write novels. And if you write novels—like, Dear Edward took me eight years. So. It’s not fast. So… [Biz laughs.] I didn’t get published at all until I was like 31 years old because the first two novels I wrote didn’t sell. Like, didn’t find a publisher. Were not published. And so like when I was like 28 years old, I had told like everyone in my life knew that this was my aspiration. I was like, failing with a capital F. At what I had decided I wanted to do. I was working as a personal assistant to make money, etcetera, but this was like my… goal. And so I got depressed and my father was sending me law school pamphlets in the mail. [Biz laughs.] Which you can relate to, I’m sure, Theresa.
theresa
Horrible.
ann
But I—
theresa
So wrong.
ann
And there was—[Laughs.] Yeah. It was just like a fork in the road and which—which way do you go? But I—I found that the only way for me to climb out of that—my depression at that point? And it was like a legitimate, like, life-altering moment depression—was to write. Like, the only way that I could feel whole again was the act of writing? And at that point—at like, 28—I was just like, oh, okay. In order for my—it’s like your self-care routine gets bigger and bigger as you grow older? At least in my own experience? There’s not like seven things that I have to do in order to be, like, a— [Biz laughs.] —a complete human being who’s like nice to the people around her? And I realized very early that writing was one of them? So it’s definitely the way that I both process the world and—and stitch myself together on a daily basis.
biz
I—I just have to say—one of the things that I love about… you… and the writing group. Including my sister. And I feel like it was something that you guys maybe came to over having, uh, written together for so long? Is the acceptance of the failures? Because all of you have now been published. And—[Laughs.] And… y’know. Can say that you’re writers and novelists and all that. And like… but people—I don’t think we get to hear the stories of the, oh, my first two? Never seen. I know that for Helen Michelle, she just stopped writing for a while! Y’know? Like… that leads me to this question that I think a lot of people sort of wrestle with after kids wind up in their house. It’s really easy to stop doing the thing that you need to do to take care of yourself. To be a—a human. Did you struggle with that? How—how did you deal with that? With… kids?
ann
I think for me, the… [sighs.] It was always so stark? Like… I feel so subpar if I don’t write that it was—it’s very clear that I couldn’t be a good mother. And I couldn’t be a wife and I couldn’t be a friend if I didn’t give myself this. And the way that I kind of, like, eke it out through feeling really guilty and like this is… y’know… waste of time or I’m not making money, etcetera. Is that I’ll like make deals with myself where I have to write for five minutes a day. And then when I’ve written for five minutes, I put an ‘x’ in my calendar. And my job—my only job—is to see how many X’s in a row I can string together. And of course, many days I would write for more than five minutes? But that five minutes was like, taking my medication for that day? And that—and I could do more. And of course—and I couldn’t talk myself out of five minutes ‘cause we always have five minutes.
biz
Yeah! That’s genius! [Laughs.]
ann
Thank you! [Laughs.]
biz
I really like the idea of that ‘x’! I mean, like, that’s… and the five minutes. That feels like, uh, it’s a very realistic sort of goal as well as the, like, tangible satisfaction of… visually seeing and physically crossing that moment off?
ann
Yeah.
biz
And I don’t think we give ourselves—I know. I know that most of us do not give ourselves the importance of… giving ourselves that thing that makes us… a person. Uh, in the world. I wanna go back to… Dear Edward for a second. We’ve done a couple of shows on… grief recently. And… we actually just had a show where we were talking about being a parent. While grieving. With a grief expert. And I guess I’m curious to hear… [sighs.] Your relationship with grief and how that went into, like, Edward’s process of—of grieving.
ann
Well… [Biz laughs.] I guess where I came—Edward and I came out—one of the sort of ideas that I developed through it was—which is not a new idea, but of course it’s where he came to—is that… love and grief are two sides of the same coin. So… if you risk your heart—and we should risk our hearts! It’s about connecting and loving and smiling kindly at someone and—and doing the small things that make lives eas—the lives of the people around us easier. You’re putting yourself at risk for the other side of the coin. ‘Cause if you lose what you love, then you’re in grief. Whereas we accept—and it’s much easier, obviously, for us to accept that love is beautiful and necessary and—and enriching. The thing is it’s the grief is beautiful. And deep. And… even enriching as well. And we all go through—at some point in our life, if—probably multiple times in our life, we encounter some kind of an event—whether it’s your mother dies or your biochemistry changes and all of a sudden your bones are soaked with sadness. [Biz laughs.] Where you feel like it’s impossible to move past this moment that you’re in? And—and not be destroyed by it but to be more on the other side. So what interests me the most about it was how do we take ourselves through it in a conscious way so that we’re more on the other side. And that’s what Edward has to do.
biz
Ohh! I love that! That is a… a nice narrative to put on that process. That’s—[Laughs.] You should—you should write a book! [Laughs.] Okay. So—[Laughs.] [All laugh.] I wanna, uh, wrap up on a different project that you… have been working on that all of you have been involved in from your original writer’s group. And—that I am a huge fan of. And that is… the One Story literary magazine. And there’s also One Teen Story literary magazine. And we just… In a world of… online—online, have no time, blah, blah, blah—I love literary magazines. I think it’s such a wonderful idea! Can you talk about—One Story? ‘Cause I would really like people to know it is out there.
ann
Yes. It’s—it’s an amazing thing. Which I play a very small part in. Hannah Tinti, who’s with Helen and I in our writing group. While we were actually in graduate school together, she and another writer named Maribeth Bacha started One Story together. So it’s been running for… I think 17 years. But I’m very bad with numbers. [Biz laughs.] And so what it is is literally one story that comes in an envelope to your house about once a month. And the truly genius thing about One Story is that it’s in its—let’s say, 17th year—and… it’s in, like, issue 240-something? I think? Now? So you’re getting one a month for 17 years. And the pledge is One Story never publishes an author more than once. So that is 243 different authors! That are being delivered to you. So it’s—it’s not just the big names! It—actually, we do publish the big names sometimes. But we also publish, all the time, debut writers from around the world. And we’re giving voices to people that don’t have voices. And it’s very fulfilling and it’s—it’s such important work that Maribeth and Hannah do and our editor, Patrick Ryan, is—is spectacular. So I highly recommend—you can go to One Story—if you—just google “One Story literary magazine” it’ll come right up. You can subscribe. It’s extremely affordable. It comes right ot your mailbox. And it’s just like—it’s goodness in the world
biz
Oh yes. It’s just like a little reading candy that you get.
ann
It is.
biz
Every month!
ann
And it’s excellence, too. Like, it’s just a very high standard of fiction.
biz
Well, we’ll make sure that we add that link in the show notes so everybody, check out the show notes as where they can find Dear Edward. Give a shoutout to your indie bookstores! Everybody [through laughter] go check out those indie bookstores! As well as where they can find out more about you, and thank you so much… for coming on and chatting with us.
ann
Thank you so much for having me! It’s a pleasure.
biz
It was our pleasure. And we hope that you have a wonderful rest of your day and say hi to Hannah and Helen if you see them! [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.]
ann
I will! Thank you, Biz and Theresa!
biz
Alright. Bye-bye!
ann
Bye!
music
“Telephone,” by “Awesome.” Down-tempo guitar and falsetto singing. Brainwaves send a message: Pick up the phone (When you, I call) Arm is moving now, no longer stone (When you, I call) Hand reaches out with a will of its own (When you, I call) [Music fades out.]
promo
[Airplane intercom chimes.] Speaker 1: This is your captain with an update from the flight deck! We’ll be reaching Max Fun Drive on… March 16th. That’s right on time. As a reminder, Max Fun Drive runs for just two weeks and it’s the best time of year to support the podcasts you love. If you look towards the front, you’ll see your favorite hosts with special bonus content and lovely thank-you gifts for new and upgrading monthly members. Now, sit back. Relax. And catch up on your favorite Max Fun shows now! So you can listen to the new episodes releasing March 16th. And thanks again for choosing Maximum Fun! [Airplane intercom chimes.]
promo
[Cheering crowd.] Danielle Radford: Mmmacho man, to the top rope! [Thump!] Danielle: The flying elbow! The cover! [Crowd cheering swells.] Speaker 2: [Distant; impact on each word] One! Two! Three! [Ding ding ding!] Danielle:: We've got a new champion! Music: Excited, sweeping music. Lindsey Kelk: We're here with Macho Man Randy Savage after his big win to become the new world champion! What are you gonna do now, Mach?! Hal Lublin: [Randy Savage impression] I'm gonna go listen to the newest episode of the Tights and Fights podcast, oh yeah! Lindsey: Tell us more about this podcast! Hal: [Continuing impression] It's the podcast of power, too sweet to be sour! Funky like a monkey! Woke discussions, man! And jokes about wrestlers' fashion choices, myself excluded! Yeahh! Lindsey: I can't wait to listen! Hal: [Continuing impression] Neither can I! You can find it Saturdays on Maximum Fun! Oh yeahhh! Dig it! [Music fades out.]
biz
Ann Napolitano. Dear Edward. And the literary magazine One Story. These are all things that we should be checking out. I just—I loved when she said—I had to write this in order to go on the journey with this child that they were gonna be able to walk out of this.
theresa
Yes.
biz
And I… and I think that is the crux of every… anxious… y’know, concern we have is—is my child gonna be able to… get on the other side of this.
theresa
Yes.
biz
Ahhhhh. Great! Speaking of getting on the other side of things—[Laughs.] Let’s listen to a mom have a breakdown!
caller
[Answering machine beeps.] Hi, One Bad Mothers! I am calling with a rant. I just got in my car so that I could… run an errand for myself. And… I should be grateful but I’m just so sad. [Tearful voice.] That I just feel like… quitting my job three years ago and being a stay-at-home parent was a huge mistake. It was fine for a while and I felt like it’s been a really good decision, but then my husband and I just had a baby again. And like, all things considered it’s actually been going really well! [Biz laughs.] Like, motherhood has been just a little bit easier this time around and I feel like I’m not as anxious about everything. I’m kind of rolling with things more. But… ever since we had our son, my husband has just been working crazy hours. And… I just feel like my schedule is so unpredictable and I just have to roll with all these things all the time. And like I totally get it! Like, he’s supportive and he communicates with me and he’s not doing [inaudible] at all! But I’m just pissed at him all the time! [Biz laughs.] And I feel so resentful that, like, everything I do is just for other people. All the time. Like, I used to have a career that I was really good at. And… I had… friends that I used to go do more things with. And… I just felt like I had a life. And… like… people who saw me as something other than just a mom. And I’m just like, really… [sighs]. I feel like I’m really falling apart right now. [Sobs.] And I’m like going to the grocery store to go get food to take to this party that we’re all going to later. But like—[sobs.] I need to get myself together. But I just wanted to call because no one else gives a shit. And… you guys are doing a really good job helping me through some really hard times. So. Even when I suck, thank you. We’re doing great. Bye.
biz
I—I love you? And you are doing… such a good job? And I think Theresa and I could have many things to say about this? My main things is—it is alllll real. Everything you just said. Those are truths.
theresa
Yeah.
biz
And… uh, the—the resentment factor in particular?
theresa
Mm-hm.
biz
I think it is unfair for any of us to think that when children come into your house—[Laughs.] Any big change like that… that you can avoid it.
theresa
Mm-hm.
biz
You can’t. I just don’t buy that. Okay?
theresa
Yeah.
biz
The best relationships in the world—at some point—it’s gonna feel off.
theresa
Yeah.
biz
Okay?
theresa
Yes.
biz
And… it—y’know—uh, we all know… you didn’t marry an asshole. Your feeling experience? Is what is at play here. Okay? That is… and those are really valid… valid… feelings. In fact, I started a whole podcast. [Laughs.] To talk about those exact feelings.
theresa
I had… a really odd reaction to your call? Which was that it made me feel like laughing hysterically?
crosstalk
Biz: Yeah. Like a crazy person. Yeah. Me, too. Theresa: And I couldn’t control myself? And…
theresa
I think it is literally just because it was so absurdly true. Like, literally every word you said, I feel… personally so deeply. And it’s… like, all I could think was, well—
crosstalk
Theresa: Yeah! Yes! Yes! [Laughs.] Biz: Yeah! Yes! [Laughs.] Yeah!
theresa
Um, I texted Biz before—[through laughter] before this show. [Laughs.] [Biz laughs.] Saying how, like—how iffy I was feeling.
biz
Yeah. I’m not sure you used the word “iffy,” but yes.
theresa
I don’t think I used the word “iffy.” I used—
crosstalk
Theresa: —a stronger word. Biz: A different word. [Laughs.]
theresa
It is so hard and it is why we’re here. And… it is so relentless.
biz
It’s relentless.
theresa
I feel like we are constantly… telling each other that we’re doing a great job and we’re working really hard and that’s important? Like, I feel like that’s really important. But there is this other… kind of… problem. With that. Which is that… we keep saying it… but it’s still really hard and we keep needing to hear it. Like, do you know what I’m saying?
crosstalk
Biz: So it’s like—you’re doing a good job— Theresa: Like, because—
biz
—it’s not getting better!
theresa
Well, ‘cause it’s never enough! [Biz laughs.] Like, it’s never—like, I feel like… I… sometimes feel like I’m the only one in the world… who wants everything to be good and easy and for me to relax. [Biz laughs.] Do you know what I mean? Because like I feel like if I ever… get to the point where I could have that… I have things being dumped on me.
biz
Dumped! Yeah.
theresa
And I interpret it that way. This is my interpretation. I could just say, that’s not for me. I’m not gonna take that on. [Biz laughs.] I could do that a lot more. But I wasn’t… raised to do that.
biz
Yep.
theresa
And our society doesn’t teach us to do that.
biz
Yep.
theresa
And sometimes it’s just not possible.
biz
Oh, that’s a big one. Yeah! I agree!
theresa
So… I don’t know.
biz
Yeah. I—the—
theresa
It’s angering.
biz
It is angering!
theresa
We don’t—
biz
It’s maddening! It’s—
theresa
It’s maddening!
biz
It’s maddening.
theresa
Yes.
biz
And in the full sense of… both anger and, like, hysterics and like true madness.
theresa
Yeah!
biz
Like, true, unstable, madness.
theresa
The feeling of questioning yourself—well, is it hard? This isn’t—this couldn’t be that hard! Someone else has it harder!
biz
Yeah! And/or—or I—y’know, I really… I think one of the things that made us laugh in that, like, true madness we all are in the institution moment is the, like, where you were like—I mean, it’s a little easier than it was last time.
theresa
It’s actually going really well!
biz
It’s actually going really well!
theresa
It’s going really well! [Biz laughs.]
crosstalk
Biz: How many times have I sat in front of the laundry machine or in a parking lot— Theresa: I’ve said that! Yes! Yes!
biz
Crying hysterically, going like—[sobs] Things are really better!
theresa
Yes! It’s so much better!
biz
It’s—[Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.]
theresa
‘Cause it—there’s—yeah! It’s not wrong! Like, that’s the thing. That’s not—it’s not wrong! But like—we—[Laughs.] We’ve gotten to this place that is so absurd.
biz
It’s absurd! And yet—that’s where the—I think the maddening laughter comes from? Is it’s like—we’re all in on this secret.
theresa
Yeah.
biz
That it’s absurd. But the image that is all around us… is this one of like… perfection? And order? And…
crosstalk
Biz: White furniture! Theresa: Fulfillment. Yeah.
biz
And fulfillment! So we’re all walking around being like—are we the only ones? Who see this?
theresa
Yeah.
biz
All of this is to say— [Theresa laughs.] You are doing… a good job.
theresa
Yeah!
biz
That is not to… say… or disrespect how fucking hard and absurd it is. That you woke up… and you’re still here.
theresa
Yeah!
biz
You are doing… a good job.
theresa
You are!
biz
And we see you.
theresa
We do!
biz
Oh, we see you.
theresa
We are living it!
biz
We feel you in our bones!
theresa
Yes. [Biz laughs.]
biz
Theresa? What did we learn today? We learned… that… staying home… for whatever reason… with your family… may not be… the… dream that was promised to us by various advertisements. Stories. [Theresa laughs.] TV shows. Movies. Or even our own memories.
theresa
Mm-hm!
biz
Of what it was like staying home all day. Sure! I bet there are pockets of fun. [Laughs.] But this isn’t about that. This is about… our feeling experience. Trying to get through… what is a very long day! It’s a very long day.
theresa
There’s many hours in the day.
biz
Many hours! 24 of them, in fact! [Theresa laughs.] Any one of them… potentially up for grabs! [Theresa laughs.] ‘K? We also learned… that… it is really important to… when you have the clarity? And the thing that you need self-care-wise is screaming at you?
theresa
Mm-hm!
biz
To listen to that? And that it is okay? And you have permission to try and find a way… to do it! To take care or yourself.
theresa
Yeah.
biz
You—you actually do.
theresa
Yeah.
crosstaltk
Biz: Get to take care of yourself. Theresa: And—and I like the…
theresa
We often talked about setting the bar low, but this is about… what can I do that will work?
biz
Yeah!
theresa
And sometimes it’s five minutes and focusing on getting as many X’s as you can. And that—if that will work?
biz
Yeah!
theresa
Then perfect!
crosstalk
Biz: Yeah! It’s not—somebody shouting at you… Theresa: That’s enough! Yeah!
biz
“Do your self-care already!” is—yeah! That doesn’t—that’s not how that works. Low bar, guys! Low bar. Very big thank-you to Ann Napolitano for joining us. Uh, again, her new book is Dear Edward, and, uh, we’ll link everybody up to that as well as One Story literary magazine. Everybody? Let’s just say it. It is a weird time right now.
theresa
Mm-hm.
biz
I know the show—ephemeral—supposed to be timeless, not timely. But… it is… uh, weird all over the world. Right now. And… it is… really a hard place… to try and organize your thoughts in my opinion. Like, I’m having a hard time organizing my thoughts and, like, knowing where my concerns should lie right now? And… that’s a real place. And… I mean, we mentioned it earlier on, the anxiety, the things that we can and can’t control and aaaaah? Y’know. And we need to be really kind to ourselves and each other if we can. ‘K? You’re all doing… a remarkable job! Okay? And… there are so many things happening in your day and in your life that… the rest of us don’t see. And… y’know, being home all day presents challenges; having to go to work all day presents challenges. Your children present challenges. We have other family members that are in our lives that we care about and that we have to take care of and—y’know—that—that doesn’t even… begin to hit all the—just—social around us. Right? Like… it’s… its own little sack of bananas and bees. Just right in our own houses. ‘K?
theresa
And by the way—whatever is working well?
biz
Yeah!
theresa
In your life? That… is great.
biz
Yes!
theresa
I love that.
biz
Yeah!
theresa
I want… none of us to feel… that we need to suffer…
biz
Yeah!
theresa
In order for this to be real. [Biz laughs.] Like…
biz
If I just keep poking myself!
theresa
Yeah!
crosstalk
Biz: Yeah, no, I agree. Theresa: Like, we don’t—
theresa
Like, if—if it’s going great? That is so great!
biz
[Sighs] Oh, it’s so good.
theresa
Y’know?
biz
Yeah!
theresa
Like, I feel like I had a few days there.
crosstalk
Biz: Yeah! That were really great! Theresa: And that was really great!
biz
Yeah!
theresa
Y’know? And I don’t…
biz
Yeah!
theresa
I don’t—I—I don’t see why we can’t…
crosstalk
Theresa: —have that? Biz: Have really good days.
theresa
For free. Like—
crosstalk
Biz: For free! Without an excuse! Theresa: Like, without a—yeah!
theresa
Without an excuse or without feeling like, well… who knows what’s to come, then?! Or—y’know. [Biz laughs.] ‘Cause obviously everything has to be…
biz
Horrible!
theresa
Yeah!
biz
That’s right.
theresa
Yeah! And if I—and if I get some time to myself—oh, I probably should’ve spent that doing something else so that things could be horrible.
biz
Yeah! [Laughs.]
theresa
No! [Laughs.] No!
biz
No to that!
theresa
No to that. You guys are doing enough!
biz
God! You’re doing so much!
theresa
Yeah!
biz
And you’re… you’re doing it!
theresa
Yeah, you are.
biz
And we see you doing it.
theresa
We do.
biz
Let’s celebrate the successes without apology?
theresa
Mm-hm!
biz
And let’s high-five those of us crying at Target parking lots. You got this! And you’re gonna get it again tomorrow. [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.] Theresa? You are doing such a good job.
theresa
Thank you, Biz. You are also doing a very good job.
biz
Thank you. And we will talk to you guys… next week!
crosstalk
Biz and Theresa: Byeeee!
music
“Mama Blues” by Cornbread Ted and the Butterbeans. Strumming acoustic guitar with harmonica and lyrics. I got the lowdown momma blues Got the the lowdown momma blues Gots the lowdown momma blues The lowdown momma blues. Gots the lowdown momma blues Got the lowdown momma blues You know that’s right. [Music fades somewhat, plays in background of dialogue.]
biz
We’d like to thank MaxFun; our producer, Hannah Smith; our husbands, Stefan Lawrence and Jesse Thorn; our perfect children, who provide us with inspiration to say all these horrible things; and of course, you, our listeners. To find out more about the songs you heard on today’s podcast and more about the show, please go to MaximumFun.org/onebadmother. For information about live shows, our book and press, please check out OneBadMotherPodcast.com.
theresa
One Bad Mother is a member of the Maximum Fun family of podcasts. To support the show go to MaximumFun.org/donate. [Music continues for a while before fading out.]
speaker 2
Comedy and culture.
speaker 3
Artist owned—
speaker 4
—Audience supported.
About the show
One Bad Mother is a comedy podcast hosted by Biz Ellis about motherhood and how unnatural it sometimes is. We aren’t all magical vessels!
Join us every week as we deal with the thrills and embarrassments of motherhood and strive for less judging and more laughing.
Call in your geniuses and fails: 206-350-9485. For booking and guest ideas, please email onebadmother@maximumfun.org. To keep up with One Bad Mother on social media, follow @onebadmothers on Twitter and Instagram.
Get in touch with the show
onebadmother@maximumfun.org
@OneBadMothers
@onebadmothers
How to listen
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