TRANSCRIPT Oh No, Ross and Carrie!: Ross and Carrie Meet Isis: Age of Aquarius Edition

Ross and Carrie sit down with original Source Family member Isis Aquarian to talk about the fringe, new-age religious group of the 60s and 70s. Was The Source Family a utopian ideal, a damaging cult, or something in between?

Podcast: Oh No, Ross and Carrie!

Episode number: 232

Transcript

music

“Oh No, Ross and Carrie! Theme Song” by Brian Keith Dalton. A jaunty, upbeat instrumental.

ross blocher

Hello! And welcome to Oh No Ross and Carrie—the show where we don’t just report on fringe science, spirituality, and claims of the paranormal, but we take part ourselves!

carrie poppy

Yep! When they make the claims, we show up, so you don’t have to. I’m Ross Blocher.

ross

And I’m… Carrie Poppy.

carrie

[Laughs.] Begrudgingly.

ross

Well, now I’m gonna get it.

crosstalk

Ross: You know, “You are not Carrie Poppy!” Carrie: From that one little girl. [They laugh.]

ross

You know, I think—I think it happened once before camp, and she just resumed right where she left off.

carrie

[Laughing.] Ooh, okay.

ross

“You are not Carrie Poppy!”

carrie

I’ll be honest, this is not the episode for that little girl, anyway.

ross

A fair point. Well, actually—that’s a—that’s a good transition. So, we’re—in this episode, we’re very excited. [Carrie agrees.] We’ve got an interview guest that we hinted at that we might have. Isis Aquarian.

carrie

Isis was the archivist and historian and a ranking member of the Source family.

ross

You may have listened to our episode on the Source family reunion dinner, held at Gratitude in Beverly Hills. If you haven’t, might be missing a little bit of the context, here. So, suffice it to say, this was a group that was very much part of the hippie and New Age zeitgeist of the late '60s and early '70s. They were very active from—especially ’72 to ’74 or ’75, in Los Angeles and then in Hawaii. And they had a founder named Father Yod. We’ll be talking about him a lot. His original name was Jim Baker.

carrie

And they had a few restaurants in LA that, kind of, were part of the big boom in health food restaurants and health food stores.

ross

And veganism!

carrie

Yeah! They were all vegans.

ross

What-what! So, anyways, we were saying this was a transition, because there are some content warnings here we should give you. [Carrie agrees.] About where this discussion will go, kind of later on.

carrie

Yeah. This is often hard for us to do, on this show, because we do deal with so many serious topics. [Ross agrees.] And we will brush by a lot of things that can be upsetting for people to hear about. But in this particular case, we do wanna give you a heads up, because there are so many packed in here! So, this episode is going to deal with: self-harm, sexual coercion, child abuse, and bodily fluids.

ross

So, if you’re—if you’re trying to avoid any of those in particular, just be forewarned. I think most of that will come, kind of, after a jumbotron. [Carrie agrees.] If you need, sort of, a… a break to look for.

carrie

Yeah!

ross

And with that, Happy Valentine’s Day!

carrie

[Loud and delighted.] Oooh, yes! Happy Valentine’s Day! And, by the way, we’re taking a week off to be with our sweeties for Valentine’s Day.

ross

So, we hope you all have a wonderful week that week. And we’ll be back the following week.

carrie

That’s right. Anyway. We got a hold of Isis Aquarian via phone. She’s in Hawaii.

ross

We had seen her at the Source family reunion dinner, but we didn’t talk to her there. But, she heard our show and she agreed to come on and talk to us.

carrie

And then she did! And it sounded like this: [Audio swaps to a previously recorded conversation with Isis Aquarian.] Hi, Isis, how are you?

isis aquarian

Doing—doing okay!

carrie

Well, thank you so much for doing this with us!

isis

Sure!

carrie

So, Isis, why don’t you tell us about how you got involved in the Source family, to begin with?

isis

I was living in LA, actually engaged to a famous rock and roll photographer, Ron Rochelle. Loved LA. Loved everything we were doing.

ross

Were you originally from LA?

isis

I grew up in the Air Force. My dad was a military man. [Carrie hums in acknowledgment.] So, we had lived in California before. But, you know, I basically lived—Oregon, California, Hawaii.

ross

Okay.

carrie

A real coastal girl.

isis

Yeah. [Laughs.] Oh, actually, we were living in Florida—my dad was stationed at Cape Canaveral.

ross

When abouts was this that you were—you know, working with your photographer/boyfriend, in LA?

isis

Uh, mid-60s.

ross

Okay.

isis

Actually, I had met Jim Baker when he had three famous restaurants on Sunset Boulevard—the Aware Inn, the Old World, and then the Source. [Ross agrees.] And then he was actually known the guru. Jim Baker was an iconic Hollywood legend before he was even Father Yod.

carrie

Oh! Okay, that’s news to me. [Isis confirms.] In what way?

isis

Yeah. He—his restaurants were all very famous. [Ross and Carrie both acknowledge this.] Everybody went to his restaurants. They were ahead of the curb. And he was, you know, he was an LA player. He was very good looking and he was very in with, you know, Warren Beatty and Steve Allen. He was in with the in crowd and he was very well known.

carrie

Interesting. Steve Allen— [Ross agrees.] —perks both of our ears. So, those two people seem like unlikely friends, because Steve Allen was sort of not very into the spiritual side of things. Do you know anything about that friendship?

isis

Well, Jim Baker wasn’t—he didn’t really start his spiritual trip until he sold the Old World and kind of went on his journey and met Yogi Bhajan. So—

ross

Okay, so they knew each other before then.

isis

The way I describe Jim Baker is he was the ultimate animal man. He was a man’s man, but he was a lady’s man. [Ross hums, intrigued.] Now, the women loved him. He had an array of friends from Jack LaLanne to Paul Bragg.

ross

So well connected. Well, when did you make the connection with him?

isis

Well, when I had moved to LA before I met Ron, I had gone to the Old World. I was actually introduced to him and his wife, at the time. I actually became very good friends with his wife, Dora. It was kind of like there was a hold put on us. We never really, kinda, connected. We did, but we didn’t.

ross

You thought, maybe, a relationship or something might arise sooner than it did?

isis

He was a playboy. And then I just kind of… moved on to another crowd and met Ron. And then, you know, we were doing our studio and I hadn’t seen Jim in a year or two. I’d heard that he’d opened this restaurant called The Source. It was the beginning of this vegetarian restaurant that he had opened up. And we were looking for models for Jesus Christ Superstar. [Ross and Carrie chuckle.] A poster we were doing. And Ron said—

carrie

He’s got the look.

isis

Um, “I need some Jesus-type looking people to shoot.” [Ross and Carrie laugh.] And I said, “Well, I’ve—you know, I’ve heard that my old friend Jim has a Memphis restaurant—"

crosstalk

Isis: You know, long hair— Ross: He has a collection of Jesuses. Isis: —wearing robes. I stepped onto The Source patio. He came out looking like Moses. You know, with the— Carrie: Oh, so close! You wanted Jesus and you got Moses. [Ross laughs.]

isis

Yeah, so, you know—with women following him and beautiful young people at The Source, and it was just like something happened. I just… I clicked. [Carrie makes a “hm” sound.] And I never looked back.

ross

Did you have to go home and think about it and then return the next day, or just immediately a member?

isis

No, I—it was immediately. I was… something happened. [Carrie makes a “hm” sound.] I was—it was—it was as if I knew this is what I was there for. I instantly knew that we had made agreements before incarnating. [Carrie makes a “mm” sound.] And he confirmed that. Just like my destiny was—that was there. It was set. And then I—

ross

What was the confirmation? Did he just kind of agree with you? Or did he have some kind of evidence of that?

isis

No, he looked at me and he said, “I’ve been waiting for you.” It was like a cosmic download. And then he voiced it.

carrie

Okay.

isis

Yeah. So, I went back home, and I told Ron that I was going to join the Source family. And I thought he would actually come with me.

ross

[Chuckles.] Yeah, I remember in the documentary, he was that wasn’t for him. [Carrie chuckles.]

isis

Yeah! I asked him to come with me and he thought I was stark raving mad. He let me go, thinking that, you know, in a couple weeks I would be back. But I didn’t. And that was that. That next day, we were having the first birth of the family.

ross

Ooh! That was with Sunflower and—?

carrie

And Solomon?

isis

And Solomon. Yeah, that was the birth of Solomon. And I went back to the studio and I got some cameras and I just started documenting, because that’s what I was used to doing. That started my path of being the family historian and archive keeper.

ross

Which is so cool, and I think what really makes the Source stand out from so many other groups, is that you have so much documentation. How much of that is yours? And how did you, kind of, make sure that you, yourself, were included in the documentation?

isis

Well, it was all mine, basically. I started it. And then I was just with him all the time, following him around. And I became like one of the family administrators and kind of handed the camera off to a Source brother, Omni. And by that time, he liked the whole thing being—you know—recording. He said, “This—we will end up saving the legacy." [Ross agrees.] Which it did.

ross

Who has all that now? Does it take up a good chunk of your house? How many photos? How many videos do you have?

isis

Well, I—you know—held on to the archives for 40-some years. I’ve been here, in Hawaii—they started getting—started deteriorating, because of the climate. And just, one day I went—you know, “I gotta figure this out. I gotta do something.” And that was about 15 years ago, when I decided I was gonna write the book. I never intended to be the one that wrote the book, but I couldn’t get anybody else to do it. [Ross and Carrie chuckle.] Some people, their families didn’t even know they were in the Source family. They didn’t even want their kids to know about the story. And that’s…

carrie

Okay. So—so, how many of the former members do you think are still open about how they were in the Source family, versus what percentage would you say just kind of don’t talk about it—it’s buried deep in the past, for them?

isis

Well, since the documentary, the book, and all the publicity—and we’ve had a couple family reunions, I think everybody’s pretty open to it. There’s like, you know some people that are negative to it, and the realization that we all came to—and it was quite a shock to me, when I came to it—was we didn’t all have the same reality of that adventure. [Carrie hums in acknowledgment.] We all saw it through the lens of our own being—our own karmic experience that we had. We all were on a different path, with it. We all did—

ross

So, if we talk to different people, we’ll get different stories. Everybody has a different memory.

isis

Yeah! We didn’t exactly all have the same experience with it.

carrie

Mm-hm. That’s a really nuanced, lovely view—that, you know, we all have these different experiences and we might see them, you know, totally subjectively. I feel like that’s a little contrasting with some of the ways it was presented in the documentary, where it felt more like, Father Yod is the embodiment of God and everyone in the Source, kind of, saw him that way. And he really was—what was the word? It was like your earthly master, or something like that. So, how do you—

isis

Well, we did—yes, we went through those phases. [Carrie hums in understanding.] We actually went through all phases, from the beginning of the family. We went through so many incarnations, you know. We experienced the American Indians, the Egyptians, the Hebrews. He took us through everything. He was on his path, also. He was an incredible being, but—you know, yes, it got messy at time. You know, we were all trying to figure it out, including him. He had to figure it out, too. And there was bends in the road. Yes, you know? I think we all got a passing grade. [Ross chuckles.] We were a mystery school. You know, we weren’t just hippies. We were into the spiritual pursuit. [Ross agrees.] And it was new territory for him, for all of us. Who was God? He was God, to us. It’s not uncommon to talk that way. It’s not uncommon to talk about being in our Godhood or our Goddesshood.

carrie

Oh, okay! So, was he God in the same way that I’m God?

isis

Yeah! So, you know, 40 years ago, that was just, like, new territory. [Ross hums in understanding.] We saw each other as Gods. We saw each other as spiritual beings. And he was the glue that kept it together, you know? We were, like, in kindergarten. It was like Spirit 101. [Ross and Carrie chuckle.] When he passed over, we all went on our own path and journey and were continuing the evolutionary process as—

ross

That glue that held you all together kind of came apart.

isis

Yeah, each of us are continuing on our path.

ross

We’ll definitely wanna ask more questions about that. One thing I know we both wanted clarification on—we’d love your insight on—is kind of what the Age of Aquarius is, to you, and is it something that we’ve passed into? Was it passed into at a certain time? What is—what are the effects of that, and can we see them now?

isis

Well, the Age of Aquarius is a frequency that this planet and humanity have to up their ante to arrive to. We have to up our own frequency. And I think that just comes in time.

ross

And was the idea that the Age of Aquarius would be when a certain critical mass of people had gotten to that stage of evolutionary development?

isis

Well, the Age of Aquarius is for each, individually, as they grasp it. We’re not all in the same grade level, on this planet and this school of life. And some of us are gonna get it before others, or some of us are gonna get it differently.

carrie

Okay, so there isn’t necessarily a worldwide shift, during the Age of Aquarius?

isis

It is—it is a worldwide shift; it’s been happening and is happening.

carrie

Okay, so we are in the Age of Aquarius, now?

isis

Yes. Astrologically, yes.

carrie

Okay.

ross

Oh, okay. And do you see anything big coming in the future? Are there any changes that you see happening?

isis

Look at the last couple years! Look at just last year. The climate change and people going veganism, because no hurt or harm intended. You know, getting back to being kind—just “be kind” is a big buzzword, right now. Which is—

ross

We could use a little more kindness.

isis

—putting people in more of an evolutionary process of that frequency that we’re supposed to be heading towards. Mankind is shifting to the heart over the mind. And it’s basically the mind and heart in balance. But the true love that was so often spoken of by all the masters is the one where you have to come from the heart. The heart’s gonna—it’s a new program for the Age of Aquarius. It’s a new mindset: mankind and planet and giving back to nature, which you see happening, big time, now. Faster. You know, there was a point in the ‘60s and ‘70s where it was kind of like a portal opened and we decided to step through it. It lasted maybe three to five years. Whether you were in a commune or ashram, apparently we found out—well, everybody thought they were the only one, but there was thousands of them around the country where people gathered.

carrie

Yeah! So, what do you think made the Source family unique among all those different communities that were cropping up?

isis

Well, we were very wealthy. However, that didn’t really mean a lot to us. You know. We were very simple in our living style.

ross

You were wealthy because of the proceeds of the restaurant? [Isis confirms.] And did you give up all of your possessions when you joined?

isis

Yes, because whatever I had didn’t really fit the way we were living. [Ross hums in thought.]

carrie

Yeah, there was a point where there were 140 of you living in a three-bedroom house, right?

isis

Yes, but we had what we called “cubby holes” we built—which is very popular, now. The little spaces. Japanese have them at the airport. Everybody had their own space. It worked out quite well. [Carrie agrees.] We took everything and made it sacred.

carrie

So, I’m curious—with the sleeping in cubbies: did Father Yod sleeping a cubby?

isis

No, he had a room. [Carrie makes a quiet “hm” sound.] He had his room.

carrie

So, in that three-bedroom house, were two of the bedrooms for 139 of you and one for one of you?

isis

Father Yod had his own room. And he, at one time—you know—assumed 14 of us as his wives—we were his wives.

ross

How did he approach you to be one of the wives?

isis

There were certain women that were always with him, to begin with. I was always with him. You know? ‘Cause I was following him, recording. Kind of became his woman, to begin with, and there was a point he assumed 14 of us and said that’s that. And that’s the way it was. And we became the counsel of the family.

ross

And that’s something that you were enthusiastic about?

isis

Yes! Yeah, no, I was—I was in agreement. There was no issue with me. I never—him and I never had any issues. We knew what our roles were. We knew what we were doing. We knew what we were there for. And it was lifetimes of—remember, you know, we had sacred herb that we only did once in the morning, which was marijuana. Diet was sacred. It was clean. It was organic. We were vegetarian. Our sex tantric, it was sacred. We didn’t have orgies.

ross

Oh yeah, when we were there at the Gratitude Café—

isis

I know, that was funny! That was, like— [Ross giggles.] I was like, “Whaaat!”

ross

Yeah, did you get to the bottom of that? What were they thinking of?

isis

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I did.

ross

Think it was maybe Explosion and Electricity who had mentioned there being, “Eh, there was that one time with the orgy.” What was that all about?

isis

It wasn’t an orgy. It was—you know, within the family, anybody could be who they wanted to be with. And I’m not really quite sure what happened, within that. I think there was just a period where some people had smoked some marijuana when they weren’t supposed to and they went off, you know, and they had a little fun time together. [Ross and Carrie chuckle.] And, you know, there was renegades, here and there, that I have heard stories about. But I—I mean, of course I didn’t know about. You have 150 people. [Ross agrees.] And I think we did really good with what we did with it all.

ross

And mostly young people, right? Was there anybody that was older than Father Yod, that was part of the community? What was, kind of, the age range?

isis

He was in his late 40s, early 50s through the whole thing. We did have a few brothers that came in that were close to that. One was a Hungarian—Damascus.

crosstalk

Isis: And you know, there were some— Ross: But most people were young. Isis: There were some—let me tell you, there were some young people that came in. There were some young girls that came in. And I will tell you, they were already on the street. And they weren’t virgins. You know, it’s—they were already living in what they called crash pads. You know, they were already— Ross: And so, you’re saying this was kind of a better situation for them?

isis

Yes, absolutely! And their parents knew where they were. And their parents said that. They said, “Well, at least they’re not out on the street. I know where they are. They’re being taken care of, and—"

carrie

I sense, like, a tiny bit of defensiveness in your voice. Do people bring this up as if it’s something to be held against the Source family?

isis

No. Um… no. I don’t—well. You know, I don’t think so. I don’t think I’m being defensive. [Ross and Carrie chuckle.]

carrie

Okay.

isis

It’s just, I’m telling—I’m telling my story. [Ross and Carrie agree.] And I don’t—it’s like, whatever anybody else got out of it or went through is theirs.

carrie

Sure.

isis

You know, this just isn’t the story I have.

ross

Okay. I’m curious about—it seems like, in the documentary, it didn’t shy from using the word “cult” and there was kind of a joking reference during the Café Gratitude evening. I’m curious, what do you think of that word? Do you think it applies to the Source family? What is your relationship to “cult” as a concept?

isis

Well, cult is culture, once we have life. And Europeans have been doing it for a very long time. Living communally and living in—oh, the Jewish have a word it. Geez, I can’t remember what the name of it is. But, that whole thing happened with Charles Mason. The press needed a buzzword. And that’s when the word “cult” was devised.

carrie

Hm. Okay.

isis

So, “cult” always had a negative connotation, to begin with. [Ross agrees.] In America. It didn’t, in Europe. Did we give up everything? Yes. Did we do it willingly? Yes. [Carrie agrees.] We were happy. We got a—you know, I think we got—all of us got more out of that situation than bad. That’s for sure. [Ross and Carrie make a “hm” sound in unison.] Didn’t have corporal punishment. You know, the children weren’t spanked or hit or—you know, nobody was abused, in the family. It comes down to that maybe some people felt like, you know, they didn’t wanna be there. Why didn’t they leave? I don’t know. You know.

carrie

So, do you know of some people then, who their experiences were largely negative?

isis

Yeah! Like I say, there are people—after the fact—that said, “Well, I wasn’t all that happy.” [Carrie makes a “mm” noise.] Or, “Now that I look back on it—you know, did I give my power away?” And, you know, that’s all everybody’s—that’s our process, now, in trying to figure it out. We all have an experience. That’s why it’s really, kind of—it’s really hard at times to explain it, if you weren’t there. If you didn’t experience it. If you weren’t part of it.

carrie

Yeah. Well, I have to ask—since you mentioned none of the children were abused: there are some accusations out there about that. So, one is that Father Yod would punish kids by putting them in a plywood box and close the lid. Were you ever aware of anything like that?

isis

That happened in—we were in Kauai and a box made, and it was—it was, you know, it wasn’t a box-box, it was like a little shed. I mean, you could stand up in it. You could sit in.

carrie

Okay.

isis

And it’s not like everything was closed and there was no air and it was dark.

carrie

Okay.

isis

It’s just, they were confined until they—you know—calmed down or meditated. I don’t know what that whole box thing was, either.

ross

Did it work? How long was someone usually in the box?

isis

No, it wasn’t—not very long. And nooo, we didn’t do it very long. And that was basically, in Hawaii—

carrie

What’s “not very long”? Three minutes? An hour?

isis

No, we’re—no. That was—that never happened when we were in California or after.

carrie

Well, tell us about the Source family’s relationship to medicine. Because I gleaned, from the documentary, that largely you guys didn’t use hospitals and doctors. Is that right?

isis

We did not. But there were times when we did. Somebody had broken their arm and Father actually sent them to the emergency room to get a cast. [Ross and Carrie both hum thoughtfully.] You know. There were times. But, you know, that was the mentality of—we weren’t the only ones that… you know, most communes—most ashrams, like, Yogi Bhajan believed the same thing.

carrie

Mm-hm. Oh yeah, no, it’s a very common view in religious circles. [Ross agrees.]

isis

Yeah, it wasn’t like—yeah. It was—that was the mentality of that time. That’s what I’m saying. It was for that timeframe. And that’s just the—

carrie

So, how do you feel about medicine, now? Do you use it now?

isis

Yes! I feel like it’s good to integrate both. [Carrie hums in understanding.] I’m still very holistic, but I do—you know—I might use it.

ross

You get your checkups at the doctor’s?

isis

Sure! You know. [Ross agrees.] But I am very careful in what medicines I take, if I have to take them. [Carrie hums an agreement.]

ross

As you should be.

isis

And then how to off-set them, holistically. [Ross hums thoughtfully.]

carrie

So, what do you think of those people who say, “Well, there were kids in this group, and they were being denied medical care when they were too young to make that decision for themselves?”

isis

What can I say? You know. It’s… probably right. [Ross and Carrie both make surprised sounds.] You know. But… what? What now? You know? That’s like going back and talking to anything in history, within that timeframe. Why didn’t they do this? Why didn’t they do that? Well, they didn’t. So, now what? [Carrie laughs.] You know, it’s like I—what do you say about something like that? It happened. [Ross and Carrie agree. Carrie tries to cut in several times as Isis continues.] For that timeframe, and we moved on. But not everything’s 100% perfect when somebody’s on a learning path. This was all new. Everything was new for everybody.

carrie

Right. No, I definitely agree, and I appreciate the attitude that, “Yeah, we made some mistakes.” That’s—

isis

We made mistakes! [Carrie agrees.] And, you know, that—how do you—how do you not, in a learning situation? [Carrie interjects with a pointed “Um!” sound.] Don’t you look back on your life in high school and go, “Oh my freaking god. What the hell was I thinking?” [Ross and Carrie chuckle.]

carrie

I definitely do.

crosstalk

Carrie: But, just to play a little devil’s advocate here— Isis: Yeah, exactly! Carrie: I don’t claim that any of my life is particularly special, right? That I have some connection to god, or I have special knowledge, right? Isis: Oh my god, don’t think that’s true. I can tell you— Carrie: Wait, say again? Isis: My life was—I have a very special experience. It was awesome. That’s all I can say. Carrie: Uh-huh. Isis: A lot of people—when we talk about the ‘60s and ‘70s, no matter what they were into, as being awesome. They might not ever wanna do it again, but they’re so glad they did. Carrie: [Chuckles.] You know, I don’t mean— Isis: Yeah, it was—it was iconic. It was an iconic— Carrie: I don’t mean that my life wasn’t pleasant. Uh-huh. Isis: Oh, it was such an iconic time! My god. Carrie: Right. Isis: Culturally and historically. And this renaissance. Carrie: Right, but also you had a—Mm-hm.

isis

And the renaissance of that is happening now, which is unheard of. Renaissances don’t happen for hundreds of years. But you know, so much of the ‘60s and ‘70s is coming back around, now. And, um…

carrie

Right, sorry Isis—I’m just gonna pull you back a little bit to where we were. [Isis agrees.] So, Father Yod did, sort of, talk about himself in these glowing terms, right? Where he sort of had this special access to divine knowledge, and was called—

isis

Well, yeah!

carrie

Right, right, right. So, if that’s the case, then looking back and sort of saying, “Well, we made mistakes, what can you do?” I mean, is that a little bit speaking out of both sides of your mouth?

isis

It was—it was a learning experience. How can that be speaking both sides of your mouth when you’re living in a duality of learning good and evil, trying to figure it out. That’s just the path at the time and that’s what happened.

ross

So, you would say that if someone is claiming to have divine inspiration, you shouldn’t necessarily assume that they have all the correct answers about just how to live everyday life?

isis

Of course. [Carrie hums an acknowledgment.] You know. Everybody’s gotta figure it out for themselves, too. But what we were given, like I said, it was like Spirit 101. I wouldn’t have been able to live that kind of life unless I would have dropped out and become a monk somewhere. [Ross and Carrie chuckle.] You know?

ross

Which makes me wonder, if you—right now, let’s say you were 19 and you reinhabited your, you know, 19, 20-year-old body—where would you be now? Where do you think, kind of, the spiritual movement is at?

isis

In this day and age? [Ross confirms.] I would be in what’s happening for this generation. Which is more of a worldwide, humanitarian thing. We envisioned world peace, back then. We thought for sure world peace was gonna come within our efforts and our timeline. You know?

ross

So, if you, today, with kind of that same energy and enthusiasm and spiritual connection, you think you’d be—kind of—moving towards maybe political action and also, just, involvement with finding solutions? Not necessarily going to a guru?

isis

Whatever—yes. Whatever it took to continue doing the work for the betterment of self and the betterment of all mankind and the betterment of this planet.

ross

And do you think there’s anybody out there, now, who’s kind of like Father Yod? A similar figure?

isis

I think this is a different timeframe. I think back then we needed groups, because we were going against society. So, we had to be private and by ourselves to get on with it.

crosstalk

Ross: By definition, a counterculture. Isis: Today we don’t have to.

isis

Yeah. Today you don’t have to be private. You don’t have to be in groups to do it. You can do it.

ross

The internet can connect you with others.

isis

Right! And that’s the difference. Everybody can do their own spiritual practice, whether it’s going to a yoga, you know, class every week or meditation or doing retreats or doing ayahuasca retreat. [Ross agrees with a quiet laugh.] You know, people are doing the same things we did back then, they’re just doing it—

crosstalk

Ross: Different ways. Isis: —in the way it’s being done, now.

carrie

Hang on there Isis and Ross and Carrie. [Ross agrees.] I gotta stop you there.

ross

Yeah well, they’re—oh wait, you’re this—you’re this Carrie. [Carrie agrees.] That Carrie can hold on.

carrie

I’m two day later Carrie. No, one day later!

crosstalk

Ross: One day later! Carrie: Was that yesterday? Ross: Yeeeah. Carrie: Woooah. Ross: Time flies.

carrie

I’ve been thinking. If you were going to go live in a communal setting with lots of people, not be able to bring a lot of stuff, what are two things you would bring?

ross

[Makes a thoughtful noise.] Well, you want your own shoes!

carrie

Definitely.

ross

And probably—I don’t wanna share a toothbrush. I’d bring my own toothbrush.

carrie

Exactly! Oh my god. Those are the two things that I was thinking of!

ross

Yeah?

carrie

I guess it’s three things. The two shoes and the one toothbrush. [Ross agrees.] But I would count it. It’s funny that we’d both think of that, because our show is actually sponsored in part by both a shoe company and a toothbrush company!

ross

I wanna hear about the shoe company first! [Carrie agrees.] But then I want to hear about the toothbrush company!

carrie

[Laughing.] Okay! In reverse alphabetical order: Rothy’s is a damn good shoe, Ross.

ross

Yeah! Rothy’s are stylish, they’re sustainable, they’re comfortable, their washable! Really! All in one pair of shoes. They’re the perfect flats for life on the go.

carrie

I agree. I have a pair of Rothy’s. I like them a lot. They’re cute, they’re really comfortable. You don’t have to break them in, which is big for me—because I can so easily get those, like, cut up heels, cut up toes on new shoes.

ross

Oh yeah, no need to add the Band-Aid.

carrie

Exactly!

ross

When you’re wearing the shoes for the first time. And—yep, my wife Kara, she loves wearing them to really anything. They’re kind of appropriate anywhere. [Carrie agrees.] She’ll wear them to the theater. She’ll wear them—I was gonna say, she’ll wear them to church. She doesn’t go to church.

carrie

[Chuckles.] But if she did, she’d wear her Rothy’s!

ross

If she’s wearing her Sunday best, it might include her Rothy shoes.

carrie

And Rothy’s come in an ever-changing array of colors, prints, and patterns. And they’re available in a range of styles—like sneakers, loafer, points, and get this: more!

ross

More? [Carrie confirms.] They’re also made from repurposed plastic water bottles. In fact, Rothy’s has diverted over 35 million water bottles from landfills already, and for that, I thank them.

carrie

Yeah, that’s by far the best thing about Rothy’s, IMO. That means in my opinion. I’m very cool. And Rothy’s own and operate their manufacturing workshop, where their prioritize sustainability every step of the way, and they ship directly in their shoebox! Thank god! [Ross agrees.] There’s not a bunch of unnecessary packaging. [Dramatically.] Why do people do this!? It’s already a box! It’s already a BOX!

ross

Oh man, I’m so with you on that. We need to cut down on packaging, period. [Carrie huffs a frustrated sigh.] So, thank goodness they’re sent in the shoebox! [Carrie agrees.] ‘Cause you’re gonna get one of those anyway. It’s—

carrie

Right?! Ugh! Thank you, Rothy’s!

ross

Yeah, no brainer. So, thank you for diverting water bottles. Thank you for only using the one box to ship and contain. And thank you for making awesome, comfortable shoes!

carrie

Exactly! These are feel-good flats, in more ways than one, people! So, go to Rothys.com. Rothys.com/ohno to get your new favorite flats!

ross

Check out all of the amazing styles available. You’ve got comfort, you’ve got style, you’ve got sustainability. These are the shoes you’ve been waiting for!

carrie

So, head to Rothys.com/ohno today!

ross

Wait, wait, Carrie.

carrie

Yes. Ross, is it?

ross

Don’t go away just yet, ‘cause I need you to tell me about this toothbrush.

carrie

Clip, clop, clip, clop, walking away. Clip, clop, clip, clop.

ross

No, no, come back! Come back!

carrie

Oh! Oh! Sorry, I forgot. Quip is a fricking great toothbrush. You ever used a Quip?

crosstalk

Ross: Oh yeah. I have one and—you know, I’ve never really been passionate about a toothbrush before— Carrie: Really? Ross: —where I felt, like, a sense of ownership. Carrie: Okay! Ross: But this is my toothbrush! Carrie: Wow! Ross: There are many like it, but this one is mine.

carrie

My friend Ross got me one for Christmas. [Ross makes an excited sound.] Yeah. [Whispering.] Because they had misplaced my other one.

ross

That’s a good friend.

carrie

Oh, for sure. Yeah, Quips are really great. They’re affordable. [Ross agrees.] They’re electric.

ross

They’re compact. [Carrie agrees.] Which I appreciate. That was always, kind of, the turn off for me with electric toothbrushes. You have to, like, plug this thing into the wall. Not this one! It’s just a battery!

crosstalk

Carrie: Batteries! Ross: Put in a tiny battery in there. Carrie: Put a battery! Mm-hm! Ross: Works for a very long time.

carrie

And you know what Quip wants you to know?

ross

Is that rhetorical?

carrie

Hm. I’m trying to decide. It was! It was delivered rhetorically, but [laughing] there is an answer! [The chuckle.]

ross

Well, tell me what Quip wants me to know!

carrie

Quip wants you to know that no matter what brand you use, if you have good habits… you’re good!

ross

Good habits. We’re talking about brushing for two minutes, twice a day. Flossing regularly. And Quip makes all of that simple. Their electric toothbrush has sensitive sonic vibrations with a built-in timer and 30 second pulses to guide a full and even clean. These are the non-BS forms of vibrations.

carrie

Right. And Quip delivers fresh brush heads, floss, and toothpaste refills every three months, with free shipping!

ross

I bet you’re wondering, “Where do I go?” You go to GetQuip.com/ohno, right now, for your first refill free!

carrie

Spelled GET-Q-U-I-P dot com, slash OH NO!

ross

Quip, the good habits company.

carrie

And now, back to the interview.

ross

Looking back at that time where groups were, kind of, the essential medium of this sort of interaction to take place—one thing I noticed in the documentary and what I’ve heard since, is that it really felt like the synthesis of just, kind of, grabbing the best ideas from wherever. [Isis agrees.] And I know the documentary was mentioning, you know, Manly P. Hall and Father Bhajan, Alan Watts and Christian Murti. Did you have much interaction with those other groups? There was one photo that almost looks like you were with one of the members of Rajneeshpuram and the Osho movement.

isis

Okay, we didn’t know about them. I don’t even know if they were—I think they were in India, at the time. I don’t think they were in America while—in that timeframe. I think they—

ross

There was a photo with a bunch of people from the Source family in white and someone wearing that, kind of—

isis

Oh, that was Yogi Bhajan. [Ross and Carrie both make a sound of understanding.] Yogi Bhajan was Father Yod’s spiritual father. He became our spiritual grandfather. And then Father Yod moved on from the eastern vibration. He said, “We have to take this more to the western vibration and not from… things that are set in their books of 3000-year-old practices. You know, he even knew then that it was—it was time for a change, and we broke out of that. But he loved—we loved Yogi Bhajan. And, um…

carrie

I saw that, in the Honolulu Star Bulletin in 1976, one of your sisters—Astral—she said that Father Yod wanted to believe in Yogi Bhajan but couldn’t. What do you think that means?

isis

Well, he saw things that happened that were against his consciousness.

carrie

Oh! Okay.

isis

And, again, he did something about it. [Carrie makes a sound of surprise.] And that’s the same thing you’re asking—why did we, in the Source family—if there was something against our consciousness or something in that grieves you, why didn’t we do something or say something? He did. He stood up to a lot to Yogi Bhajan.

carrie

What was happening?

isis

Especially about the treatment of women. Yogi Bhajan had his women. He had mistresses and he kept them in the closet. He treated them very badly. And Jim—

carrie

Oh, literally in the closet?

isis

Well, the term, honey. The term. [Chuckles.]

carrie

Okay. Oh, you mean like he hid them like a secret.

isis

Secretly.

carrie

Oh, okay. I see.

isis

He never admitted to it.

carrie

Oh, I see.

isis

You guys are funny!

carrie

[Laughs.] Oh! Well, I thought you might literally mean a closet!

isis

I mean it. Yeah. Put your claws away, come on.

carrie

[Ross chuckles.] I mean, you know. Gurus do surprising things.

isis

Come on, come on. I wish—I wish we’d hung out more at the Café Gratitude.

crosstalk

Carrie: [Chuckling.] Yeah, that would have been fun. Ross: Us too. I know— Carrie: Yeah. Isis: I wish you could have approached me. Come on!

ross

Oh, we should have. We didn’t wanna edge in on everybody else who already knew you.

isis

No, no. It would have been delightful. I would have loved it. [Carrie chuckles.]

ross

What was your recollection of that night? Was there anything that we kind of missed out in our recollection of it?

isis

Uh, no. That night was about honoring of the past and bringing it into the present. It was honoring Father Yod and what we did in the ‘60s and ‘70s and kind of passing the baton on over to this generation with what, you know, Ryland’s doing at Café Gratitude. You know. This next generation and appreciation, both of us. You know. They were so appreciative of what we did with the Source and being part of the forerunners and pioneers of that time. [Ross agrees.] And then to see that—what they’re doing and carrying on with it. You know. It was just awesome on both of our parts.

ross

Yeah, we certainly had a great time there. And it was nice to see you.

isis

And it was—it was—you know what? And I think I said this, that night: it was—it was the same energy that hit the ‘60s and ‘70s, when something new was happening. You knew it. And it was kind of like another portal had opened up and it was like a whole new energy got anchored. [Carrie makes a sound of interest.] And it was funny, because I—I don’t know if you watch the Grammys.

ross

Sometimes.

isis

Oh, god, what is her name? Who was ever hosting it. That was a speech, she gave. She said, “This is a whole new timeframe.” She said, “Seize it. Let’s walk forward in a different way.” And that’s basically what I was saying that night. You know? [Ross and Carrie hum in agreement.]

carrie

You know, you said something else that night that stuck with me. You said that Father Yod was in that room. You could sense him. [Isis agrees.] How often do you—are you still in contact with Father Yod?

isis

All—well, all the time. He mind-speaks to me, a lot. The thing is, is how can I not be? I, you know, I’ve had the archives. I’ve been doing projects. I’ve been still living the energy and the legacy and working with it. It’s not like I’ve stepped out of it. [Carrie agrees.] You know, even though I’ve gone on and, you know, had my own life and I have a daughter. I have a granddaughter. And I have my own family. You know, this is still a working part of my life that never was severed. It’s why I never left—because I was saving the legacy, you know? So, I was this—I’ve been very immersed in it. And so—

carrie

Sure, yeah. I definitely get why he’s on your mind. [Isis agrees.] But it sounds like you’re saying he’s literally talking to you, right?

isis

Well, he is—it’s called a mind-speak. [Carrie confirms.] And it’s, you know, it happens a lot to a lot of people. That we—you know, when they get messages. And then I have to just discern whether that’s true for me or not—if that’s what I think or what I wanna do. And it usually is.

ross

And do you feel that he’s still existing in some form that can still interact with the world? Or is it just that he’s made such a potent imprint on you?

isis

Well, he’s made an imprint on me, but what he does with everybody else, I don’t know. You know, I’m sure—just look at Buddha. Look at Jesus, whether he was real or not. People say the same thing, you know. [Carrie and Ross agree several times.] I hear him. He talks to me. I feel him. He’s here. And the Dalai Lama says the same thing. We have a residue frequency that stays—I mean, the planet is not left unprotected. Mankind is not left alone. And all the greats, by what they did—whatever power or energy they have—are always trying to help mankind. You know. People are always saying an angel came to me or I heard this, or I heard that. It’s not uncommon.

ross

So, you felt kind of the same phenomenon?

isis

And you know, death does not end something with somebody. Death does not end a thread that you have with somebody. You come in with those threads. You know, that you’re connected with certain people. Sometimes you absolutely know it. Have you not ever just met somebody and that was it? You knew.

crosstalk

Carrie: Knew—? Ross: That you had, like, a previous connection from an earlier life? Isis: Well yeah, whether you could figure it out or not, you know what I mean it? Ross: [Hums in understanding.] Carrie: Well, there was a guy at our table, at Café Gratitude, who felt that way about [chuckling] someone else at the table.

isis

Oh! [Isis and Carrie laugh.] Oh, and did you—you know, you had mentioned that song, Myōhō Renge Kyō? [Ross and Carrie confirm.] And that was so funny! ‘Cause that Explosion’s song.

ross

Was it? [Ross and Carrie chuckle.] Was that him singing?

isis

Yeah! And that was—that was his last chant, because he came in from that to the family and Father said, “Well you can—you can chant it one more time, son.” And now it was made. And so, that was his whole thing that he did. And I love that little thing that he did, that Myōhō Renge Kyō. I think it’s hysterical. We had fun! We had a sense of humor; I will tell you. We weren’t—

carrie

Yeah. No, that much is clear, for sure. [Ross and Isis agree.] So, you mentioned death not being the end and I know that I heard a clip of Father Yod, at one point, talking about reincarnation. So, I’m curious how this works—if Father Yod is also speaking to you, has he not reincarnated, then?

isis

You can—you know, there’s a—there was a saint named Padre Pio. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of him. [Carrie and Ross confirm that they have.] Padre Pio had stigmata, but he was also known for appearing to many people at the same time. Did you know that?

carrie

Uh, no. I don’t think so.

isis

Okay, you can look that up. That’s—it’s very well known that he did that.

ross

Actually, I think that they did talk about that at the International Academy of Consciousness, when we were attending classes there. [Carrie and Isis agree.]

isis

It’s not an unfamiliar thing, and I—we will find, as we go into these next years now, and when we do really start preparing for the Age of Aquarius and a higher level of consciousness and being—this is not unusual. This is the way it’s supposed to be. There are dimensions. The veils are thin, within these dimensions. People can really, literally go in and out of dimensions and so can they—whatever they are. You know, I’m not saying I know exactly how it all works or why.

ross

Definitely we’ve heard these ideas elsewhere so, uh—yeah!

isis

Yeah, that’s what I mean. It’s something—it’s like quantum physics finally proved religion and belief. [Carrie makes a “hm” sound.] And what we—just, so long on just faith alone. Quantum physics just nailed it, you know? The whole thing. You know, 15 years from now, we’re gonna look like—people are gonna laugh at us, how primitive we were—

carrie

That’s probably true.

isis

—in our spiritual awareness and being. [Carrie makes a cut off, surprised “oh” sound.] And what we thought and what we didn’t believe in.

ross

You talked about that transition that happened, you know, with Father Yod’s death. Were you there when that happened, in Hawaii?

isis

Of course. I actually filmed him passing over.

ross

Do you feel that it was an accident? Or was this something that was, kind of, cosmically intended to happen the way it happened?

isis

He… had talked—he actually tried to disperse us, before we moved out of LA. And nobody would go.

ross

To kind of reduce the numbers. Because it wasn’t 140 people…

isis

No, he just—he just said, “I’ve given you everything I have, I know. You don’t need anything else.” He said, “It is time for you all now to go out on your own path.” And we wouldn’t go! [Carrie and Ross chuckle.] So, we aaaall moved to Kauai. He tried to disperse us there. Nobody would go. We weren’t having it.

carrie

He’s like, “Leave my party! This is my house!” [Ross chuckles.]

isis

Yeah. And then we moved to San Francisco, and then he got really serious about it in San Francisco. And that didn’t work for him either. Nobody was having it. [Ross and Carrie chuckle.] And so, then we moved back to Hawaii, when he—

ross

“This is just a test of our devotion. We will still stay with you!” [Carrie laughs.] “No, go away!”

isis

We were a family! [Carrie agrees.] The majority of us never, ever—in our wildest imaginations—ever thought we weren’t all going to be together into old life and watch each other pass over. [Ross chuckles.] Seriously.

crosstalk

Ross: It was a—a thing that was meant to happen for a certain time. Isis: It was a working, one-hearted, one mind, pretty much community family. Carrie: Yeah. Ross: Hm. Isis: Okay.

isis

We were living in Hilo. One of his sons, Mercury, came to O’ahu. He was a hang-glider. A very famous hang-glider. And he went on to set the world record. So, Father Yod said, “Well, I’m gonna come over, too.” And he came over with a couple of his women, and then we got a house. And his women ended up coming over. And we ended up staying for about six weeks, because he went on this process. He says, “you know, I—this is enough break from the family.” He says, “I really need to disperse the family.” He said, “I just wanna retire.” [Ross and Carrie hum in understanding.] You know? He said, “Everybody really needs to, you know, the little birdies need to get kicked out of their nest and they need to go on to their own.” And he didn’t know how that was gonna happen, because we wouldn’t leave. He could not figure out—he says, “I’m done.” And the thing about the tape projects that I did, by the way—which are being made into series—if you listen to them, he tells the whole story, from the man himself and the real deal. That’s why these tapes are invaluable. [Carrie agrees.] You know, everything I’m saying can be, you know, backed up on tapes that were recorded four years ago. So, what happened was, he decided he was gonna go hang-gliding. Now, he knew he couldn’t just jump off a cliff. You know. He just wanted out.

crosstalk

Carrie: What do you mean he wanted out? Isis: Not only want—he just wanted the family dispersed. He wanted to either retire—he actually didn’t even wanna be here, anymore. He was—he felt he was done and he—and he felt he was really ready to go on, already.

carrie

Okay, so it sounds like you’re describing a suicide.

isis

No, he—‘cause we didn’t—he couldn’t do a suicide and we all knew that. But what he did do is he definitely tested the boundaries. But this was so Jim Baker. This wasn’t unlike any of the stories we ever heard of something that he would—that he had done.

ross

He was a stunt man, right? He kind of lived on the edge?

isis

Yeah! Jim Baker had done—he was fearless. He had done everything. Some of the stories he told were like oh my god! So, you know, when he decided he was gonna go hang-gliding—why not? That was—that was his—

ross

He was willing to accept that his death might be the outcome.

isis

That was just so Jim Baker. [Ross and Carrie agree.] I mean, it wasn’t out of the ordinary for him to have done something like that. Nobody—we really weren’t happy about it. It was like, “Whaaaat?!” You know.

crosstalk

Carrie: Yeah, and it’s— Isis: He said—he said, “Jesus is the heir and he’ll take care of me.” Carrie: Yeah. Isis: He left it up to fate. He really did. Carrie: Okay. Well—when he came—when he— Isis: You know, and he did—he did get strapped into a hang-glider and he flew off the cliff. The wind was whipping, and as soon as he went off the cliff, the wind stopped. And it was like— Carrie: Yeah, what a horrifying moment for you all. Ross: Yeah.

isis

What the heck just happened? And when we found him—when we went down and found him where he’d landed, in this park—I wanna tell you something, and this is a true story. It can be verified. There was a policeman there, the ambulance, and the fire truck and nobody had touched him, lifted him, they were standing by him. And it was like time had stood still. We—when we found him and we went to him, he was smiling. There was no blood. There was no broken bones. He said his back hurt and to put him in the car and take him home. At that moment, it was like everybody came to and the policeman came over and the ambulance and they wanted to take him, and he says, “No, I’m fine. They’re gonna take me home.” They let us put him in the car and we took him home. And for nine hours, he went through—he said it was like a pain that was going up his spine, like each chakra. [Ross and Carrie hum in understanding.] And it was like a birth. At the time it was in a certain chakra, he would tell us where it is and there was, like, a birth pain and he would have a downtime where there was no pain. Like if he was giving birth. And then all the sudden, he was just gone. Nine hours later, we looked down and he was gone.

carrie

Yeah, and was it you who said, in the documentary, that the coroner’s report said that there were no broken bones and no internal injuries?

isis

Right! [Carrie makes a “hm” sound.] So, this was a whole—this was something on a whole other level. And he got what he wanted. [Carrie starts to speak, but Isis continues.] But, you know, whether it was right or wrong, I don’t know. But this was his journey. It wasn’t ours. It was his. It became ours, of course.

carrie

Did you get a copy of that coroner’s report?

isis

Yes! I have it.

carrie

Oh! Would you mind sending it over?

isis

I’m surprised it’s not in the book.

carrie

[Laughs.] Would you mind sending it to us?

isis

[Beat.] Sure.

crosstalk

Carrie: Cool. That’d be great. Thank you. Ross: Oh, great.

isis

What a minute. I—um, you know, I don’t—I have none of the archives, here. You know that, right? [Carrie confirms.] The archives are at a very prestigious, special collections at UC Santa Barbara.

carrie

UCSB, yeah. Okay, so you think the coroner’s report’s there?

isis

Yes. But, no, I just have to—I’m sure I have a copy of it.

crosstalk

Ross: Okay. Carrie: Oh, okay. Cool. Yeah.

isis

I’ll just have to go find it. In fact, I remember seeing it not too long ago.

ross

Clearly, you know, your experience has stayed with you and shaped your life. Now, you live in Hawaii now, right? Do you live anywhere near, kind of, the site where you were at the time?

isis

Yes. I kind of—yes. I kind of am here. And I go back and forth to LA a lot, ‘cause I do a lot of projects.

ross

Aah, yeah. I assume you’re still vegan or vegetarian?

isis

Um, pretty much. I do vegan and I do vegetarian. And I, you know, I’m not saying that I don’t deviate here and there, just every once and a while. You know, but—

ross

But primarily.

isis

Yeah! Yes. Absolutely.

ross

What drove that? Like, when the restaurant was coming into vogue, was it about spiritual purity? Was it about saving the animals? Was it about the environment? Kind of what were the main reasons?

isis

All of the above. But it was basically the wisdom of what you eat. You know, you are what you eat and no hurt or harm intended, like to animals.

carrie

I like that.

isis

And there were so many greats of the past that were vegetarians, you know? [Carrie agrees.] Buddha. India—the state of India, basically, most of them have been vegetarians forever. [Ross and Carrie agree.] And it wasn’t, you know, a novel concept with a lot of people around the world. I’m not sure if Jesus was supposed to be vegetarian. I don’t know.

ross

He just didn’t like figs. [The three of them chuckle.]

carrie

Uh, he was a fisherman so probably not.

isis

It was basically the wisdom of, “You can get everything you need out of, you know, your protein, your calcium.” There is more protein, basically, in some foods than there are in meat. [Ross and Carrie agree in unison.] So, it’s like, we weren’t gonna lack anything.

carrie

Well, you’re talking to a vegetarian and a vegan right now. So, we’re on board.

isis

Oh! Oh, very good. Very good. Yeah.

carrie

Ross. One day later Ross.

ross

Yeah, Carrie! What’s up?

carrie

Hey. I’ve gotta stop all y’all. Because I have a [singing] jumbotrooon!

ross

A jumbotron!?

carrie

Yes. This is a very special one. It’s perfect for a Valentine’s Day episode. [Ross giggles.] It is to Stacy, from Fega.

ross

And Fega says, “I am so lucky to have found a person who both understands that kashruth is basically homeopathy but wants to do it anyway.”

carrie

“I’m so lucky that we have found one another and know that I want to spend the rest of my life with you.”

ross

“Hopefully, we are listening together. But if not, just pretend you are hearing this for the first time.”

crosstalk

Ross and Carrie: [In unison.] “Will you marry me?” Ross: Awww. Carrie: But not us, Fega. Ross: Right. Carrie: Don’t marry us by accident. Ross: Yeah, yeah, that was—that was Fega speaking. But aww. Carrie: I’m excited! Ross: Mazel tov! Carrie: Yeeah! Send us—send us a picture of you guys crying and kissing. Ross: Yeah—that’s—that’s how we picture this going. Carrie: Like a respectable one. Yeah. Ross: Yay, jumbotron! Carrie: YAAAY! Jumbotron!

carrie

Okay. Well.

ross

Back to the—

crosstalk

Carrie: Back to the interview. Ross: Interview.

carrie

So, let’s talk a little bit about—you mentioned the orgy that didn’t happen. [Chuckles.] But the—but the Source family did have these, sort of, openly free ideas about sex, right?

isis

We had—our open idea was, you know, sex was sacred. It was honoring each other. And you could be with whoever you wanted to be with, as long as it was in agreement with everybody. You know, we had couples. We had some of the brothers that had two or three women. It’s not like—it was—it’s not like, um, just everyday you could just pick somebody and be with them. It’s like—it was—

ross

So, it was kind of a monogamy, but maybe a serial monogamy.

isis

Yeah. There was a order in it. There’s definitely order within it.

ros

It seemed like the implication was that you sort of had this sixth commandment, of sorts, that was really about one man and one woman and nothing getting in between them. And I think it was Robin saying, in the documentary, that there was a point at which Father Yod kind of stepped away from that.

isis

Well, what—okay. But that could also be looked at in another way.

carrie

Okay.

isis

Let nothing—a man and his women let nothing separate them. Well, some men had more than women. [Carrie chuckles.] It didn’t mean one-one.

carrie

Did some of the women have more than one man?

isis

There was a period there where yeah. [Ross and Carrie make sounds of surprise.] That was—that was experienced. Yeah.

ross

That’s good.

crosstalk

Carrie: So, then— Isis: That didn’t last very long.

carrie

Um, well I heard—I saw the term celibacy used in some of the old literature. So, what did celibacy mean to you guys?

isis

We experienced everything. We took a lot of the eastern tradition and the monastic rituals. You know, there was a point of—first of all, the celibacy came into play because when people were coming into the family, we had a 30-day wait period that there was no sex with them, in case they had any diseases. [Ross makes a “hm” sound.]

carrie

How would you figure that out in those 30 days?

crosstalk

Isis: Well, within 30 days you’re gonna—if you have herpes, or whatever you’d have, it’s— Ross: It would show signs. Isis: Yeah! Yes. Ross: Okay. Carrie: Okay.

isis

So, that was a big play there. And also, to kind of get people out of their—what they call your animalistic thoughts of bodies and… sex was gratifying and orgies and more into the more spiritual side of sex. You know, more spiritual and controlled. There was, you know, a point we went to where the man did not lose his seed unless he wanted to have a child. And that’s tantric. [Carrie and Ross hum in agreement.] You have orgasm up the spine. You know, we experienced different things.

carrie

Yeah. Yeah, so then was the object, kind of, that sex is for procreation?

isis

No! Sex is for enjoyment.

carrie

Okay.

isis

But you don’t have to lose your seed.

carrie

Sure.

isis

It was being in control, spiritually, of your—of your higher evolutionary process, within the whole thing.

carrie

Sure. Okay, well since you mentioned the seed, a I have an uncomfortable question for you, Isis.

isis

Oh, nothing’s uncomfortable, just spiritual.

carrie

Okay, oh! Oh, I appreciate that. So, a former member reached out to me and she said that there was a ritual in the Source family called Kaddash, where a woman who is menstruating would lay down and Father Yod would choose a man to have sex with her. That man would ejaculate inside of her, then give her cunnilingus, extract that menstrual fluid and semen, then put it in the woman’s mouth. She would swallow. And then this was continued with other men.

isis

[Beat.] What do you mean, continued with other men?

carrie

That then, like, another man would come and do the same.

isis

To that same woman?

carrie

Uh, that’s the impression I got. Now you’re making me question that part. I’m not sure. Is that—?

isis

No, that—that—that—that wasn’t true. There was a period where there was a form of practice called Kaddash that was introduced, which is not something new, also.

carrie

Right, it’s a Crowleyism.

isis

Well, it goes beyond that. You know, Crowley took things, spiritually, and made it his way. But where did Crowley get it? He didn’t make it up, either. These are all ancient spiritual practices, if you wanna know the truth.

crosstalk

Isis: And then anything— Carrie: Okay. But, so you—so you’re that is all accurate? Isis: Anything—anything can be taken to the light or the dark, however you wanna use it. Carrie: Sure. Mm-hm. Isis: It was a high, high ceremony that we did for a short amount of time. Carrie: Okay. Yeah. Isis: Like we did everything else. And it was done in a very sacred way. Carrie: Yeah, the—mm-hm. Mm-hm. Isis: And there is a theory behind it. You know, in spiritual practices of menstrual blood.

carrie

Yeah. This former member who I talked to, she felt like there was sort of a pressure inherent there—that Father Yod was—

isis

Well, I—that, again, was her experience. [Carrie agrees.] And I will absolutely give her her reality, whatever it was. Because, you know, she’s not the only one that ended up feeling that way. I can’t—I am not responsible for what happened to anybody or how they took it or how they feel. I had my own understanding and my own experience with him. Whatever they had, they’re gonna have to take it up with him. [Carrie and Ross hum in understanding.] Absolutely nothing to do with me and I’m not gonna assume that responsibility.

carrie

Yeah, well, I agree. But have you asked any of those people not to talk about the Kaddash?

isis

[Beat.] They can do whatever they want.

carrie

Right. But have you asked them not to?

isis

[Beat.] Well, in the beginning everybody asked everybody not to. You know, people have children. People have kids and they go, “I don’t want my kids finding out this. How do I explain something like this to them?” [Ross and Carrie hum in understanding.] So, you know, when you come out of the closet, you know, there are no secrets. Everything’s going to get exposed, not only with us but it happens to everybody. Like I said, mistakes are made. It got messy. There was misunderstanding.

crosstalk

Carrie: It definitely sounds messy. Isis: And that’s the journey. That’s the journey in anything.

carrie

Yeah. Okay. I guess what I’m—

isis

In the now. We’re in the now.

carrie

We are in the now, but in the now we’re—you know—you’re still going on events and talking about the Source family and talking about it as this, sort of, idyllic experience. You know, the suggestion seems to be these are—this is a lifestyle we could all, sort of—

isis

Alright, Carrie. Carrie.

crosstalk

Carrie: —emulate to some degree. Isis: Carrie. Carrie: Isis, is it? Isis: Carrie. Carrie: Yes, Isis? I’m here.

isis

Do you—okay. Do you sit and talk about family skeletons and secrets?

crosstalk

Isis: Do you tell every— Carrie: I don’t know if I understand the question.

isis

Okay. Do you keep things that you’ve done in your high school years or—there are things you’ve done that you don’t probably want anybody to know about. Why? Because why? It’s not gonna be understood.

carrie

Uh-huh.

isis

And what purpose does it have? So, you’re grilling me—which is okay, I don’t mind. Part of the process. It happened. And there you go.

carrie

Well, I appreciate you saying that.

isis

But you’re—kinda seem like—like this is just, you know—everybody’s got something they probably think would be best—or what’s—what purpose does it serve? [Ross makes a “hm” sound.]

carrie

Well, is that a real question? Do you want me to answer?

isis

Yeah. What purpose does it serve? It was something that was—we went through. It was at that time. It was for us. And it was in a vibration and understanding of that time.

carrie

Right. Okay. So, what purpose does it serve, is the question?

isis

Yeah. What purpose, in the now, does it serve?

carrie

Okay. So. In the now, Isis Aquarian is going around and she’s talking about the Source family and she’s promoting it. And it’s a very idyllic view. And Isis Aquarian is also saying, to me, “Well, this is what my experience was. Other people are welcome to talk about theirs.” You know and giving this sort of even-handed approach. While, on the other hand, you’re also saying, “But do we tell each other not to talk about experiences they think are traumatic? Yes.” And I think that’s not great. [Chuckles uncomfortably.] Right? I mean, I think that that—

crosstalk

Isis: No, I—I agree with you. I—I— Carrie: That puts out a story that is incomplete.

isis

I agree with you on that. And I made it very clear that, in the beginning, I’m not the only one. We all asked each other—I’m not the only one that said, “No, don’t talk about it.” Everybody said it.

carrie

I don’t suppose you are.

isis

Everybody said it. But, that was part of the process of, just, getting over the hump of that, too. You know, when family secrets start coming out that you know aren’t gonna be understood. [Ross make a “hm” sound.] You would rather they didn’t. I’m at a point, now, where… you know, of course, let this person tell their side of the story! Of their side of the story. [Ross and Carrie agree.] I have mine. You’re talking to me. And I make it very clear that everybody has their own reality. I make it clear that this is just mine. And I make it very, very clear why it’s mine. You know. I make it very clear that no, other people don’t have the same reality. [Ross starts to speak but Isis continues.] I think I’ve always made that clear.

ross

Yeah. Well, looking at the now, if you met somebody who was young and just now going into a group—a different group, but you know, there are many out there. I don’t know, would you give them any kind of warnings? Would you say, “Watch out for this sort of thing, or make sure to put down your foot if you see this. You know, if you see something, say something.” Is there any advice along those lines you would give somebody, now?

isis

Um… I have had reactions, myself, to things that have happened recently, in some groups.

ross

Ah, okay.

isis

So, I know that feeling. But people—every experience somebody has or gets into, it’s their process. There’s a reason that that’s happening to them and it’s further learning experience. I would—if somebody were to ask me, I would say, “Yeah! You know, don’t—if something doesn’t feel right, either say something or leave! You don’t have to be there.”

crosstalk

Ross: If—if you could— Isis: But if something— Carrie: That’s—that’s tough, but yeah. Isis: But if something feels right and you’re—that’s your experience and you’re gonna come out the other end learning something, that’s great! What happened to us was for that time, but—

ross

If you had the ability to kind of go back in time, is there anywhere you would sort of inject yourself and try to change things? Would you try to talk Father Yod out of getting on the hang-glider? Would you—is there any spot that you would have your voice be heard?

isis

Well, we all asked him not to go. You know?

ross

Mm. That didn’t work.

isis

It’s that we all tried to talk him out of it. Nobody agreed to it.

ross

[Chuckling.] Uh-huh. Were there any other times, then? If you could go back and kind of tell yourself to do things differently, would you?

isis

[Beat. Sighs.] Would you tell yourself that, from high school? Yes.

ross

Oh, there’s—I definitely would tell myself in high school not to do things, yeah.

isis

Yes. But what good would that have done? That was your experience, and if you’d gone back and made it all perfect and stopped everything…

ross

I’d be a different me.

isis

Exactly. So, it’s kind of—if you really get into it and start thinking about it, with anything that happened in history—I used to always say, “How come the Holocaust happened?” People knew what was happening, why didn’t they get out before they got on the train? You know?

carrie

Wait. Sorry, what? Do you mean the concentration camp?

isis

The Jewish Holocaust, yes.

carrie

Why didn’t the concentration camp victims get off the train?

crosstalk

Ross: Well, yeah, and they certainly didn’t have the option. Isis: But why did they—why did they even—they could have left the cities. They knew what was happening and they knew what was coming— Ross: [Lowly.] Oh. Carrie: Well, people attempted to leave in droves, but were often, you know, chased with guns and killed on their—in flight. Isis: But that was at a certain point. It was sealed off. But before that, they knew to get out.

ross

It’s easy to see in hindsight, not so easy in—

isis

Exactly, in hind—exactly. It would have changed the whole thing. So, you can’t—

carrie

But that would be a good change, right? No Holocaust would be kind of a thumbs up.

isis

It would be a good—yes, it would have been a good change and that’s what we do now. We change things, now. We learn from them. And that’s how you change things. You don’t go back and them. You change them, now.

carrie

Sure. But looking back with a sort of healthy regret can be a good way— [Isis agrees emphatically.] —to make sure that your future behavior is more aligning with your values, right?

isis

And that’s—you’re supposed to do that. You’re supposed to go through your whole life river and reflect on it and adjust it. “What would I have done different? What wouldn’t I have done, what I would have done?”

crosstalk

Carrie: Okay, great. Ross: Yeah.

carrie

So, I think Ross’s question, then, is—looking back at your life river and saying what could I have adjusted to end up in—yeah. [Isis agrees.] What are some things you would have adjusted?

isis

I probably would have been… more receptive to the family as a whole. [Ross and Carrie make sounds of surprise.] You know, been more involved with people from more of a heart level. [Ross makes an “ah” sound.] And authoritarian.

carrie

Oh, interesting. Okay.

ross

Did you see yourself as kind of a leader, who exercised a certain amount of authoritarianism?

isis

Yes. Yes. [Carrie makes an “oh” sound.] And being more compassionate and kind and maybe more loving and more understanding. And more involved. Would I have changed anything with Father Yod? Not with him and I. You know. We all tried to talk him out of the hang-gliding. You know, it’s like—I didn’t—I honestly can’t say—I’m really trying, but I honestly can’t say I’ve found a whole lot of fault with a lot of it, because I knew we were just on a journey and it was a process. And if anything that happened from the beginning of that family, we went through it—we were out of it, and we moved on. It was a pattern. And the life experience was amazing. I don’t—I don’t know. I just—I saw his journey different, I think, than a lot of people did. I saw that it was his journey, what was happening, and I agreed to have his back. That was my role. So, for me to see it otherwise is so hard. And I honestly, authentically try. [Laughs.] But that just does—that’s not my understanding and experience, with it. And I do have great empathy for those that have a different, you know, experience in it and any way that they came out hurt or affected or damaged. That—that’s not—no, that’s not good. [Ross agrees.] And that was never—

carrie

And you’re okay with those people speaking out?

isis

Of course! [Ross makes a “hm” sound and Carrie concedes.] That’s their right!

carrie

Yeah! Good.

isis

What am I gonna do? You know?

carrie

[Chuckles.] Well, so, since you mentioned having been an authority figure—was that partly after Father Yod’s passing? When there was sort of a female-led group for a second?

isis

No. No. That was pretty much from the beginning. He made me the, you know, the family administrator and…

ross

And did that mean you oversaw finances—?

isis

We all—there were people that did finances. That’s—

ross

What were your roles?

isis

You know, just the running of the family and the duties and a buffer between the family and Father, if somebody had a complaint or an issue. You know?

ross

An adjudicator of sorts. [Isis agrees.]

carrie

Oh, you were like the executive assistant.

isis

Oh, whatever. [Carrie and Ross laugh.]

ross

Major Domo. [Isis agrees.] Okay. I’ve gotta ask some fun questions. [Isis cheers and Ross and Carrie laugh.] Okay. Are there any good stories you have? ‘Cause we were joking about, you know, white clothes being such a bold statement. How did everybody get their white clothing? And were there ever any wild stories of white clothes getting dirty?

isis

I—you know what, we had washing machines and drawers and… [Laughs.]

ross

Ooh, all the conveniences!

isis

We kept clean! [Carrie laughs.] And white! You know, when you get really used to wearing white, it’s not that hard to keep up with that kind of thing.

ross

Okay, well hats off to all of you.

carrie

How did you avoid getting menstrual fluid on your white gowns? [Ross chuckles.]

isis

We made our own pads. We made them out of terrycloth, and they were tripled over.

carrie

Oh, okay.

ross

Alright! Heavy-duty.

isis

Yeah. And—you know, I’ll tell you something. After a while, in the family—because of our diet, and we were all kind of on the same frequency—we didn’t really have a lot of body odor, even when we went to the bathroom, you know, our bowel movements didn’t really smell.

crosstalk

Isis: [Inaudible]. Ross: Well that’s good when you’ve got 140 people sharing three bathrooms.

isis

And our menstrual periods were not that long. Or—I would say, heavy.

ross

Interesting. [Carrie makes a “hm” sound.]

isis

Oh, we figured it all out very well. We bought home-spun; it’s cotton material, to make our robes and then we got into satin and silk and... I don’t know, it just—you know, people had duties, you know. People kept the clothes clean. [Ross and Carrie make sounds of acknowledgement.] And it worked—it worked very well. You know, you have a—that many people and everybody’s gotta be doing something. Everything gets done very well, very efficient for that many people.

ross

You mentioned people coming to the restaurant, even celebrities. Did you have any fun interactions with celebrities?

isis

Mm. We were basically—they didn’t really affect us a lot. I mean, we weren’t, like, starstruck. We were more starstruck with ourselves. [Ross laughs and Carrie chuckles.] You know, and what we were doing. And these were all people that a lot of us had already known, anyhow, ‘cause we were—a lot of us were from that industry.

carrie

Oh, right!

isis

Father Yod knew all of them. You know, and when musicians came in, like John and Yoko and stuff like that. You know, we would go, “Ooh, John and Yoko’s here!”

ross

I would freak out over that!

isis

Yeah, that was—really had nothing to do with our way of life or what we were doing. And we did a very good service. And that’s why—one of the reasons we were so successful. People knew that they could come there, no matter who they were, and they were gonna be okay. They could just come and eat. You know. They weren’t gonna be bothered. [Ross and Carrie both make “mm” sounds.]

carrie

Did you get to meet Bud Cort?

isis

Yeah! [Ross makes an “ooh!” sound.]

carrie

Yeah, what’s he like?

isis

Bud Cort was awesome in the early days. He didn’t—

ross

Harold and Maude is one Carrie’s favorites.

isis

He didn’t stay that long. He left.

carrie

Oh, okay.

ross

I noticed, in the music, there’s a lot of Father Yod whistling. Was that something he, kind of, did all the time? Or around the Source family?

isis

No, just musically.

ross

Oh, okay. Well, now I picture him kind of whistling all the time. Alright, I’ve changed that picture. [Isis and Carrie laugh.] There are so many interesting names in the Source family. Zenaru, Harvest Moon, Aquarian, Octavius, Gin, Orbit, Electra, Galaxy, Electricity, Negus. How did people get these names? Did they choose them themselves? Did Father Yod give them their names?

isis

In the beginning, what happened was—do you know Manly P. Hall is? [Ross and Carrie confirm that they do.] Okay. I love him.

ross

The Philosophical Research Society, here in LA, is just down the street.

isis

Yeah, his book The Secret Teachings of All Ages? [Ross and Carrie confirm that they know it.] It was the bible, to begin with, for the hippies and the flower children. So, we all knew that. Well, Jim Baker had—was going to his classes, and Jim Baker and him were very good friends.

carrie

Oh, nice.

isis

And in the early days of the Source family, one day Manly called and asked Father to come over. He had something to give him. So, Father went with a couple of us and I happened to be one of them. Manly gave him a piece of paper and it had 50 names on it. [Ross makes a “hm” sound.] “Here are 50 names.” He said, “Let your family pick out what name they like or vibrate to, or you give the name to somebody.” And he looked at me and he said, “You’re Isis.” [Ross and Carrie make surprised sounds.] And that’s our experience with—starting with the names. I didn’t know who Isis was. I thought it was a dorky name. [Ross and Carrie chuckle.] I didn’t want it. I didn’t like it. And I said, “Nooo, I’m not.” And, uh—Father Yod—

ross

You gave it back, at first.

isis

Yeah. Father Yod looked at me and he said, “Yes, you are.”

crosstalk

Carrie: Oh, wow! Isis: So that was that. Yeah.

ross

Now you prefer that as your name, right?

isis

Well, it’s just—I don’t know if I prefer it. I’m just used to it. You know.

ross

On your—on your legal documents, are you still Charline Peters?

isis

I’m Charline Peters, but I also legally have an AKA. [Ross and Carrie both make sounds of understanding.] ‘Cause we all, legally, had our name changed.

crosstalk

Carrie: Right. Ross: Yeah, I know they were saying some even chose “the” as their middle name—so, they’d be Negus the Aquarian. Isis: The Aquarian. Yeah. Yeah. Ross: That’s funny.

isis

So, then—as things went on—Father would name people, sometimes other people would say, “Oh, a good name would be—” and Father liked it.

carrie

Is it tough to be named Isis in the [chuckles] in the last decade? I feel like your name’s on the headlines a lot.

isis

Oh my god.

ross

Talking about the middle east. [Chuckles.]

isis

Kind of a—definitely a… a weight. A burden. [Carrie agrees.] You know? Yeah, “I’m Isis.” Like, oh god do I have to go through this again. [Carrie laughs sympathetically.]

ross

And I realize you’re saying Isis (Eye-sees), rather than Isis (Eye-sis). [Carrie agrees.]

isis

I say Isis (Eye-sees).

ross

Isis (Eye-sees), okay.

isis

Whatever. Whatever you want, however you wanna say it.

carrie

Interesting. You know, I noticed that—in one of the materials it said that you all weren’t supposed to use drugs. But then there was also some clear using pot and mushrooms. Was that a thing that just, kind of, evolved?

isis

No, we didn’t—we weren’t using mushrooms. An adept came, one day, and brough mushrooms to Father and he used them, like a couple of people that were there at the time did. It’s not like mushrooms were passed out to the whole family, [inaudible].

ross

Not a common thing.

isis

No, it wasn’t common at all. Our practice was we used the herb, the sacred herb.

crosstalk

Ross and Carrie: [In unison.] Marijuana. Isis: Once in the morning, for meditation.

isis

And it was a six-second hit, and that was it. However, I have found out—of course, over the last couple years in talking to people—that there were people that did it off and on, on their own. They snuck it, somehow. [Ross and Carrie make sounds of understanding.] How I didn’t know about that, I don’t know!

crosstalk

Isis: You know, people did things! What can I say? Ross: Well, hey, that’s people in general. Isis: Yeah, I mean, you know— Carrie: Yeah, sure.

carrie

Well, and I—no shade for people who smoke pot, I was just curious. So, was it sort of life—when you’re using it in the morning with the meditation, that’s not so much as a drug as a spiritual tool?

isis

Well, that—it was a spiritual practice. Other than that, we weren’t supposed to.

carrie

Gotcha.

isis

So, what people ended up doing—I don’t—what can I say? [Ross chuckles.] It wasn’t a normal thing or a group thing or a family thing. [Carrie agrees.]

ross

Are there any special days on the calendar that you, kind of, observe in particular? Like, maybe, the birth of Jim Baker or the—

isis

Well, July 4th I always think of his birth, Jim Baker. And then August 25th, the day he passed over.

crosstalk

Ross: Mm! That’s my wife’s birthday. Huh. Isis: [Inaudible.]

isis

Oh, okay. I do think of that. Other than that, no.

ross

[Singing.] Born on the fourth of July! [Carrie laughs and Isis agrees.] Okay. Now I will associate him along with “Yankee Doodle Dandy”.

isis

He was very patriotic, by the way. He loved the whole founding fathers thing, and we had the 13-star flag in our driveway.

carrie

Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah, I noticed that in the documentary, there was a baby born who was swaddled in an American flag.

isis

He was very patriotic.

ross

Oh! But you mentioned at the dinner, where we saw you, that he wouldn’t vote in this current climate?

isis

I don’t—I mean, I can’t—who knows?! I don’t think he would.

ross

Fair. Okay.

isis

Maybe he would have. You know. Maybe he would have—we’d have all gone down in droves, 150 of us, and voted. You know, I don’t know.

carrie

Yeah, of course you don’t know. [Chuckles.]

isis

I just don’t think so. I have a hard time trying to figure it out, ‘cause  I don’t wanna be part of something that’s not right. You know? It’s like, “What do I do?” You know. I just want this to be right, whatever it is. [Carrie empathetically agrees.] Who the hell knows, at this point, what’s going on? I’m—it’s very perplexing.

ross

As someone who works in the elections as a poll worker, I certainly feel it’s a good patriotic duty for everyone to—a least, according to their conscious and where they see the future going to make their vote.

isis

No, no, I do too. I think that—I don’t know what he would do. I don’t know why I said that, but that’s what came through. I don’t—I don’t think he would have gotten involved with politics, but I don’t—you know.

carrie

Yeah. Do you have the, sort of, ongoing relationship with him where that’s a thing you could ask him?

isis

I don’t really ask him questions like that. I’ll try!

carrie

Yeah! Try!

isis

I’ll let you know if anything comes through!

ross

Oh, we’d love to hear! And, of course, if you’re ever in LA we’d be happy to make up for not seeing you, before. So, if you’re ever… wanna connect.

isis

Yeah! Yeah, next time I come to LA for sure I’ll let you guys know and we can do lunch or something fun.

crosstalk

Ross: Hey! Carrie: Oh, that sounds great. Ross: That would be fantastic. We’d love to see you.

isis

Also, Philip DeLeste—I think you guys should do an interview with him.

ross

Oh! We’d love to talk to him. I’ve been meaning to reach out to him, so we’ll do that.

isis

Yeah you should. He’s into it.

carrie

Is he the historian? [Ross confirms.] Oh, cool.

isis

He’s awesome. He’s absolutely awesome. He’s brilliant.

ross

Yeah, we’d like to—we’d like to meet him.

carrie

I have one last question, Isis. So, since we were talking about Father Yod’s passing in 1975, that reminded me that that was the year that he predicted we’d go into nuclear war and the worldwide population would fall by 30%, which, you know. It didn’t. [Laughs.]

isis

Yeah, we were in that mentality. But, you know what? Everybody was at that time. We all had the same mentality that a war was coming. [Carrie agrees.] It was Revelation, it was the Biblical predictions. We weren’t the only ones that were riding that wave.

crosstalk

Isis: The bombs were gonna come. Carrie: You certainly weren’t. Ross: For sure. Isis: You have to realize, starting from the ‘40s, we came out of war with Hitler. The ‘50s was—I remember having to duck under the desk for drills from Cuba. Castro was gonna— Ross: Oh yeah.

isis

I mean, we’ve—since the ‘40s—been living in the threat of war and mankind being annihilated.

carrie

That all makes perfect sense from the mindset of the average person.

isis

We weren’t—we definitely weren’t the only ones that—that was a mindset that hit a whole planet, for some reason.

carrie

I guess what I’m thinking, though, is—that puts Father Yod in the mind space of everybody else, right? He’s not any particularly more wise than anybody else?

isis

No! Though that was something that definitely was a mindset of very many people. But not—

ross

Totally random question, but as I was looking at—there was a little poster behind us, at the dinner, and there was a group photo and Father Yod was looking very Moses-like, there. Great assortment of people around him. And there was a large sign, and it said, “GO!” in capital letters. Do you remember that? Do you know—

carrie

Where do we go?!

ross

Yeah, what was that all about?

isis

Okay, that was when we were living in Nichols Canyon, in what we called the father house, our second home

ross

So, the mother house was the Chandler house, and then you moved into father house—

isis

Yeah, the Nichols Canyon, up on a little hillside. He made a path and he put up tents up there. He had a tent that gave him some privacy. He would go up there during the day if he wanted just meditate or be alone or have some space. ‘Cause as long as he was down at the house, you know, everybody was always around them or stopping what they were doing to just sit around him. So, there would be times that, you know, he would just go up to his tent. And so, he had the sign. [Isis and Ross laugh.]

ross

Oh, okay! The literally, “Go away! Give me some peace.”

isis

Yeah. Go, you can come up and see me if you want or, the other side, said stop. That meant he wanted to be alone. [Carrie and Ross make sounds of understanding.]

ross

I see, okay.

carrie

This guy was really trying to get some privacy.

ross

Well, who can blame him?

isis

I love that shot of him looking like Moses with the family. We called that the Aquarian Exodus.

ross

Okay. We pointed out—there was another photo where he looked very much like Gandalf the White, you know, from the Tolkien novels. Was there any kind of—did he ever reference those or kind of visually was he going for a certain aesthetic.

isis

No. I think it’s a natural evolution of people that get into spirit like that and they start growing their beard and their hair. [Ross agrees.] They all, kind of, have a similar energy and vibration and look. Don’t you think?

ross

Oh yeah, absolutely. We spent some time with a group called Eckankar, and a lot of their religious paintings on the ethereal plane very much look like meetings from Lord of the Rings. So, there’s some overlap there.

carrie

Yeah, it’s certainly just sort of the natural version of the modern, cis male.

crosstalk

Ross: If I—if I stop shaving and, as I grow older, I will also look like that. Carrie: You’d look like that. Yeah.

ross

My dad looks very much like Santa Claus.

carrie

Oh! It’s true! I’ve met him.

isis

That’s so funny.

carrie

Ross’s dad. I haven’t met Santa Claus. [Ross giggles.] Is there anything we didn’t ask you about that you wish we had?

isis

I don’t know. [Carrie and Ross chuckle.] You know, I just—I do—I don’t prepare for interviews, because everybody pulls out something different or I’m able to explain something in a different way. Or I even get a different revelation on it. You know, I’ve learned so much myself by feedback on what I even—how I even answer something. You know, I have, maybe, new revelations myself and new reality within it. So, I like—I like people just—whatever they pull out of me, whatever they wanna know, it’s different every time.

ross

Well, we appreciate you being open to all of these questions and being so open with your memories and recollections and where you’re at now!

isis

Oh, thank you!

carrie

Well, thank you so much, Isis. This has been so wonderful. And I know that our listeners will really love this episode, so thank you so much for being on.

isis

Well, you’re welcome.

carrie

Hey! It’s Ross and Carrie, back from the future.

ross

Well, that was a fun interview!

carrie

Yeah! It was heavy, but it was good.

ross

Carrie was nervous going into this.

carrie

Mm-hm. That’s right.

ross

And I was nervous [laughing] to see what Carrie was gonna do. [Carrie chuckles.] No, I was eager to see, kind of, how this questioning would go, and I really appreciate Isis being willing to go with us, on that. [Carrie agrees.] To, I think, be very candid.

carrie

So, we do wanna thank Isis Aquarian. There are also a few other people who contributed to this episode and I’m gonna tell you how. So, a little bit of an update on the coroner report. [Ross agrees.] So, Isis did send it to me. She sent me, actually, two pages that I think she had taken a photo of with her phone, and I’m not sure that that’s the whole report, but it’s the part that she felt was relevant to the point she was making.

ross

Okay.

carrie

So, as you’ll recall, she said that there were no internal injuries, no broken bones. And so, the death was, sort of you know—mysterious.

ross

Riiight. So, he crashed during a hang-gliding accident. That seems like a pretty simple, straight-forward cause and effect.

carrie

Cause and effect.

ross

But, she’s making it sound like there’s still a mystery, there.

carrie

Right. So, she sent me a looot of emails after this interview ended. And one point she made was that many gurus and spiritual leaders do claim that they plan to leave the body voluntarily.

ross

Ah, yes. The mahāsamādhi.

carrie

Right. And, of course, many of us are familiar with the idea of the corpse that doesn’t decay, that shows that that person’s holy. [Ross hums in agreement.] You know, so there’s a lot of mythology around the deaths of a spiritual leader.

ross

The incorruptible saints.

carrie

Right. Seems like that’s kind of what she was going for, here. But she sent that on over and the cause of death is listed as “unknown”. Of course, that means just what it says—that doesn’t mean it’s, uh, a miracle. It just means this particular pathologist didn’t figure it out.

ross

I don’t know, Carrie. It’s unknown!

carrie

[Chuckles.] But under “summary of principal pathological findings”, it says, “Fracture of sternum.”

ross

Oh! That’s a bone!

carrie

That’s a bone. And a fracture is a break. And that makes it a broken bone. And it also notes that his body had severely decayed by the time the autopsy was performed, because they had kept him in a warm room for about three and half days.

ross

Hey, Hawaii, yeah. [Carrie agrees.] What do you expect?

carrie

After he had died, they held vigil for three and half days, so the body was decomposing in this house. So, I reached out to Caitlin Doughty, who you’re a big fan of.

ross

Oh yeah, absolutely. She’s a fantastic author of Will My Cat Eat My Eyeballs, From Here to Eternity.

carrie

Smoke Gets in Your Eyes.

ross

Yeeeah. All great books.

carrie

Yeah. So, I reached out to her and she didn’t… answer!

ross

Well, she had someone—

carrie

No, I’m just kidding. I was just trying to build it up and knock it down!

ross

Oh, I gotcha.

carrie

Her assistant answered and said, “Well, she’s not quite the right person for this, but here’s her colleague.

ross

We still love you, Caitlin, if you wanna come on the show.

carrie

[Chuckles.] But her colleague is equally cool. Her name’s Judy Melinek. She’s a forensic pathologist and she’s the author of the books Working Stiff and First Cut.

ross

Oooh. [Carrie agrees.] New book I wanna read!

carrie

Now we have to read those! So, she was so helpful. She had sick kids, this week. She dropped her kids on the floor and she said, “Let me help Carrie!”

ross

Wow! [Carrie agrees with a laugh.] Aw, that’s great. I think you sold this pretty well—you wanted to know about a guru with a coroner’s report. That’s pretty enticing.

carrie

Yeah, okay good.

ross

But thanks to her.

carrie

Yeah. Oh, indeed. So, she looked at it. She said, “Okay, well, after three days at room temperature, the skin will become brown and green and discolored. And it’s gonna obscure external evidence of injury. [Ross hums in agreement.] So, that explains there being not a lot here for the coroner’s report. She said, “It would be that the body was so markedly putrefied, that the pathologist couldn’t definitely identify the trauma, because of the breakdown of the organs.” And she said, “There’s no spinal injury listed, but it’s not clear to me whether the spine was even examined.” And then, [laughs]—and then, in response to Isis’s contention that he had no broken bones, she said, “Well, a fracture of sternum indicates that there’s at least one broken bone.” [Ross hums in agreement.] Yep.

ross

I mean, that’s still pretty impressive—to fall to your death and only break one bone. But that is a bone.

carrie

Oh, sure. But she’s saying it probably wasn’t just one bone.

ross

Right, right. Yeah.

carrie

Yeah. She said, “If a person fell from a great height and sustained a sternal fracture, then there may have been other bleeding into, like, a sack surrounding—you know, the heart, the lungs, the plural cavities.” And she said all these could cause the back pain we heard about when he was dying a slow painful death. [Ross agrees.] And she said, “I’m missing the descriptions of these organs in the sheets you provided me. It doesn’t look like you got the full report.” [Ross makes a thoughtful noise.] And then she said, “I think you’ve not been given the full report for a reason.”

ross

Oh wow. Okay. More to that story.

carrie

Yeah. So, I—so, I summarized that reply for Isis, and I said, “Yeah, can you send me the rest of the pages of this report?” And Isis suddenly remembered that she is on deadline and she can’t get to that right away, but she did note that she believes “fracture of the sternum” indicates a crack and not a break.

ross

[With humor.] Okay.

carrie

And she said, “Autopsies can be performed many days after the death of a body, even after this three-day vigil in a warm room, that wouldn’t affect the coroner’s ability to do an autopsy.” So, I relayed that to Dr. Melinek, and she said that’s absolutely not true.

ross

Okay. [Carrie agrees.] Even the Bible tells us, John 11:39 says, “’Take away the stone,’ he said. ‘But Lord,’ said Martha, the sister of the dead man. ‘By this time, there is a bad odor!’” [Carrie laughs.] “’For he has been there four days!’”

carrie

Oh yeah!

ross

So, there you go.

carrie

And that is noted on this report, that the body smelled.

ross

So, so far we have a very human body doing the same thing you would expect any body to do.

carrie

Right. So, Isis also emailed, after this, to say she just wanted—she couldn’t think of that word—that Jewish word for community. [Ross confirms.] It’s “kibbutz”.

ross

Ah! Alright. Good on her for following up.

carrie

So, I mentioned—during this interview—that I had spoken to a former member who had, you know, these—this much darker story to tell. I talked to her afterward and she had just finished listening to our first Source family episode. So, she had a lot of thoughts to relay. And I okayed with her reading a few of her thoughts. This is just a tiny, tiny fraction of everything she shared with me. [Ross hums an affirmative.] She did ask to remain anonymous. But she said, “The question you posed to Isis about who Jim Baker would vote for in 2020—the reality was that nobody watched the news or watched TV during the entire six years.” [Ross makes a sound of surprise.] “None of us knew anything about what was going on in the real world. That’s one of the things that really bothers me, how many historical events that I missed out on during those lost years being in the Source family.”

ross

That’s interesting. I wonder if it was one of those situations where there’s sort of a rule or an expectation, but the leader can flout that? Because I remember, in the photos of Father Yod, one of them was him sitting reading a newspaper.

carrie

Oh, okay.

ross

I mean, that’s one moment. [Carrie agrees.] In many years.

carrie

Yeah, I didn’t take it to mean that it was a prohibition of the news and so on, but just that—like—

ross

De facto, nobody was doing that.

carrie

Yeeeah, nobody was doing it because they were all talking about—

ross

But I wonder if he was still tapped in on some level.

carrie

—energies. Yeah. Could be.

ross

Interesting, though.

carrie

So, I also asked her to clarify about the Kaddash. So, when I kind of went through that whole explanation of what it was, Isis stopped me at the very end, and she had a problem with the end of the description.

ross

Oh, okay. Oh, the “do it with another person, now.”

carrie

Riiight. And so, I asked this person again and said, “Did I misunderstand that part?” And she said, “No. Isis might not have been ordered to quote/unquote, ‘feed’ one quote/unquote ‘son’ after the next. So—” You following what ‘feed’ is?

ross

Okay. Yes, now. Now I do.

carrie

And she said, “But I was. I was ordered to do that. Which, to this day, is the thing that haunts me the most.” [Ross makes a sad sound.] “And is the thing that I am most ashamed about having done. Jim Baker ordered me to feed three sons in a row, one after the other, in order in a little redwood building that was called the temple. And so, that is burned into my memory. And I know of many other of the women who were ordered by Jim Baker to feed multiple sons. I was penetrated separately by each one and forced to endure that deviant ritual three times in a row.”

ross

Wow. Okay.

carrie

So, yeah. One thing that she really wanted to drive home was that she feels that there is this, sort of, loving, celebratory—oh, what’s the word…

ross

Aura?

carrie

Yeah. Yeah. In retrospect about Jim Baker, and that there’s just really no balance there of, like, the bad stuff. [Ross hums in agreement.] And in particular, she felt like his attitude toward women was pretty awful, so she said, “Jim Baker saw a woman’s role as a subservient and obedient one to men. A woman’s role or duty was only to serve and inspire her man. And even after Jim Baker died, Macushla was elevated to being the head of the Source family and she had a schedule where each woman had to record when and which son she fed.” And she said, “It didn’t stop even after the bastard was dead.”

ross

And we mean “fed” in that same sexual sense. Okay.

carrie

Right, right. So, yeah, these women were being, like—in this woman’s recounting, these women were being, like, forced to sexually serve the men in the group.

ross

Okay. Well, thank you to that former member for sharing all that! [Carrie agrees.] That’s not easy to talk about.

carrie

Absolutely. So, yeah. I wish that we could have that particular former member on, but she wishes to stay anonymous, understandably. But we are reaching out to some other people and hopeful that we can widen the breadth of this story. [Carrie agrees several times as Ross talks.]

ross

Here, as Isis would say, everybody’s experience and memory and what they recall—everybody has a different experience. We find this in so many things, these days, where you have to take a full picture of everybody—everybody contains complexity and good and bad in different measures. So. Yeah. Good to get the full picture. [Chuckling.] Well, on that really upbeat note! [Carrie laughs.] Happy Valentine’s Day again!

carrie

Happy Valentine’s Day! And let’s all remember that Fega and Stacy might be tying the knot!

ross

Yeeeah!

carrie

Yeeeeeah!

ross

In a very egalitarian and equal relationship.

carrie

[Laughs.] Yes. Yes.

ross

Where no one is seen as subservient.

carrie

Yes, hopefully. I don’t know them. Or their genders. Or anything about them! BUT! They seem great! [They laugh.]

ross

And that’s it for our show! Our theme music is by Brian Keith Dalton.

carrie

Ian Kramer is our administrative manager.

ross

You can find us on social media and get all kinds of commentary and images and shared link and all kinds of great stuff. So, you should do that! Facebook.com/onrac. O-N-R-A-C.

carrie

Twitter.com/ohnopodcast. O-H-N-O-P-O-D-C-A-C-T.

ross

You can also support us at MaximumFun.org/donate, but you can also support us just by telling your friends and sharing us online, leaving us a positive review! We really appreciate that. It’s always really fun to hear from people for whom our show has been a comfort, a companion, and in some cases has—you know—really had an impact on their lives. That means a lot to hear that. [Carrie agrees.] So, thank you for all the many ways that you support us emotionally, financially, and—

carrie

And physically. The people who just walk around holding me in the air. Thank you for that.

ross

Yeah! Why don’t they do that to me?

carrie

[Sadly.] Oooh, they don’t?

isis

And remember, just be kind. No hurt or harm intended.

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“Oh No, Ross and Carrie! Theme Song” by Brian Keith Dalton. A jaunty, upbeat instrumental. [Music ends.]

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About the show

Welcome to Oh No, Ross and Carrie!, the show where we don’t just report on fringe science, spirituality, and claims of the paranormal, but take part ourselves. Follow us as we join religions, undergo alternative treatments, seek out the paranormal, and always find the humor in life’s biggest mysteries. We show up – so you don’t have to. Every week we share a new investigation, interview, or update.

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