Transcript
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[Three gavel bangs.]
jesse thorn
Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorn. We're in chambers! Uh, multiple chambers! This week.
john hodgman
Yeah. [Laughs.] Even more metaphorically than before. [Both laugh.]
jesse
Ready to clear the docket!
john
Yeah. [Both laugh.] Hi, Jesse!
jesse
Hi, John! I hope you're doing okay.
john
I'm fine. I'm here in my home office in a very, very quiet Brooklyn, New York. Of course this is not unusual for me. This is where I normally do my recording. But you are—of course are for the moment not at Maximum Fun HQ, but in your own home where it all began!
jesse
Yeah! I am—I'm in Mount Washington, Los Angeles, in my home office. I've got my closet door open to help dampen sound. Gotta keep the bathroom door closed and the closet door open. That's the secret of all recording. That's how they recorded "Thriller."
john
[Laughs.] Speaking of thrills, are Coco and Sissy gonna come in and do a cameo?
jesse
Yeah, we'll see if my dogs or children make an appearance. Uh, all of them are home. And all of them are distinctly noisy! [Laughs.]
john
Well, I hope that you are bearing up okay in your isolation. As I hope all of our listeners are as well. Obviously we're going to continue to keep your scrubbed hands and untouched faces company throughout this ordeal, and we hope that it will not last too long. But urge you, obviously, to stay home, stay safe, and stay healthy for yourself and others. And now let's begin the distraction! How about some justice?
jesse
Indeed! [Both laugh.] Let the hammer of distraction fall!
john
Yeah!
jesse
Here's something from Ren. They say: "My husband Vincent uses headphones to listen to podcasts as he falls asleep. This has damaged many pairs of headphones, some of which were relatively expensive. We easily go through ten-plus pairs of headphones per year."
john
Wow!
jesse
"I'm also concerned this is a safety issue. On more than one occasion, I've woken up to have his headphone cords wrapped around my arm! Or I see them tangled around his own limbs, and even his neck."
john
Hm!
jesse
"I voiced my concern. He remains un-concerned." [John laughs.] "He's refused my offer to use a Bluetooth speaker instead. I'd like Judge John Hodgman to order that Vincent can no longer sleep with headphones in, to protect the safety and sanity of his adoring wife."
john
Sometimes the cord wraps around Ren's arm! And that means Ren cannot be a functional Knight of Ren! As in... I guess a lightsaber-wielding bad guy in The Return of the—in the later Star Wars movies?
jesse
[Laughing] Yeah, I believe that's right.
john
It must be hard to be named Ren these days.
jesse
[Still laughing] Yeah.
john
'Cause people must be coming up to you all the time—
jesse
I'd go back to Larry, frankly.
john
Yeah! [Both laugh.] It's too bad! Because people must be coming up to you all the time going "Can you explain a little bit more of the background of who the Knights of Ren were? And what their deal was?" And you're like "I'm just named Ren." [Jesse laughs quietly.] I really would like to learn more about the Knights of Ren. You know what, if you need some distraction in your life, and you've got some deep background on the Knights of Ren, and you work in the story group at, uh, Star Wars? Uh, drop me a line! Drop me a line from home and let me know what the Knights of Ren were all about. Anyway. Jesse, do you ever listen or watch media in bed? Like, to fall asleep to?
jesse
I will occasionally listen to something when I'm taking a nap.
john
Oh!
jesse
That—I've never been someone to watch TV in order to go to sleep.
john
Right.
jesse
But I will occasionally listen to a napping meditation or something slow and reliable, like the baseball game.
john
Oh... [Exhales sharply.]
jesse
When I am taking a quick nap.
john
I gotta tell you right now, your just saying "the baseball game" almost made me fall asleep. [Jesse laughs.] Not because I find sports that boring, but you're right. Like, the sound of a baseball game... is one of the most beautifully soporific, sort of mid-summertime nap things. That's one of the things we miss, now that society's on pause. [Both laugh quietly.] But yeah, that would be great to listen to. What kind of napping meditation do you listen to?
jesse
I'll just listen to any napping meditation. I am not picky. I'm not good at meditating. I'm just really looking for something boring.
john
Let—let's say you're the co-host of a podcast who's never even heard the term "napping meditation." What are you talking about, is what I mean.
jesse
Oh, I'm talking about, you know, a basic sort of mindfulness meditation, but it is napping-themed. [Laughs.] So it kind of has the rhythm of taking a nap and waking up from a nap.
john
Is it someone saying words to you?
jesse
Yeah! There's some kind of weird, New Age-y music playing. And then somebody's saying like... "Oh, go ahead and feel relaxed!" Or something like that. [Both laugh quietly.] Like, "Aw! Go ahead and feel relaxed. It's alright to rest every part of your body."
john
I'm—I'm into this, a lot!
jesse
"Check in on your feet." [Laughs.] "Are they relaxed? How do they feel?"
john
Keep talking, and I'll do the New Age-y music. [Jesse laughs.] Bing!
jesse
"Tighten your calves. Now release them."
john
Bonggggg! [John continues humming/imitating some kind of chimes as Jesse speaks.]
jesse
"Move on up to your thighs. How do your thighs feel? Check in on them. Tighten them as tight as they'll go. Three, two, one... And release. And feel a feeling of peace sliding into your thighs." And so forth. [Laughs.]
john
[Cutting himself off mid-hum] I was trying to channel my inner Tangerine Dream there. It's not really New Age, but that's as close as I get.
jesse
[Laughs.] Oh! That was, uh, Tangerine Dream's rare a capella album. [John laughs.] When they abandoned analogue synthesizers and collaborated with Bobby McFerrin.
john
They did have some sweet, uh, nighttime rooftop sax in the soundtrack to Blade Runner. Bwomp bwomp bwomp bwaaaam, bwomp bwomp bwwwuhh!
jesse
I'm a big fan of the soundtrack of the movie Thief. Have you seen that movie?
john
I've never seen it!
jesse
Oh, it's so—A, it is such a great movie.
john
Yeah.
jesse
And B, such a great Tangerine Dream soundtrack.
john
I know, and I—you know, like, I looked at that—I can't tell you the number of times... I picked up the VHS cassette box of that movie. To peruse a rental, back in the day. Because I mean, it's Michael Mann, director of Manhunter, one of the greater Hannibal Lecter movies. [Jesse chuckles.] It's got this incredibly trippy cover to it. It's got a one-word title, which I like. Thief. And I saw that it had Tangerine Dream on there, and I knew—I knew I liked Blade Runner a lot. You know what it came down to, Jesse? The reason that I never watched Thief? I got no Caan in me, I'm not a James Caan person.
jesse
You would be if you watched Thief.
john
I gotta see it, huh?
jesse
I have no other Caan. [Stifles laughter.] Thief is one of my all-time faves. I would say Thief is a top-20 movie for me.
john
If only I had some time on my hands now. [Jesse laughs.] Alright, let's get to Ren and Vincent. Obviously I don't want to interrupt or disturb anyone's relaxation habits these days, Vincent. But I do think that, aside from the expense of going through ten-plus pairs of headphones per year—like, he's gotta be wearing over-the-ear headphones to mash 'em up that bad, right? Like, if he's ruining headphones by sleeping in them?
jesse
I'm really stunned by this ruining headphones by sleeping in them. I guess maybe—[laughs] maybe he's like, got the cord going to like a hi-fi stereo receiver? You know, with the big headphone jack?
john
Yeah.
jesse
And so every time he turns over, it pulls, and the stereo receiver wins and the cord snaps, or something?
john
The cord snaps and the headphones fly off his head and through the window? [Laughs.] Yeah.
jesse
Yeah.
john
Out onto the fire escape? And I'm not sure, really, if this is a safety issue. Ren has talked about their arm being wrapped up in cords, which I'm sure is dis—uncomfortable. But unless Ren breathes through their arms—which is possible. We don't know anything about the Knights of Ren. Uh... [Both laugh.] I am a little concerned about Ren's husband Vincent waking up with the cord wrapped around his neck. That's no good. But I mean, I do think that this is a time—in general, nighttime should be a time to put aside unnecessary anxieties as much as possible. And Vincent, you need to acknowledge that this is causing Ren distraction during the—a time when they also need to put aside unnecessary anxieties and fall asleep and block out the world, as you are blocking out the world with whatever you're listening to on your headphones. I presume, and I hope, it's the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Maybe you're listening to it right now, as you're falling asleep! So let me give you this post-hypnotic suggestion. [Pause.] Vincent... Vincent, hear me! This is your master, Judge John Hodgman. Get cordless earbuds of some kind! They don't have to be the fanciest, most expensive ones. Just some basic cordless earbuds. So that Ren can finally get some sleep. And set your podcast player on sleep mode. And also, MaximumFun.org/join. I am your master. You may now fall asleep. [Jesse laughs quietly.] And dream of me, John Hodgman.
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[Three gavel bangs.]
jesse
Or of electric sheep. Either way.
john
[Laughs.] I think people are gonna be looping our napping meditation and using that, and I hope that they do. I waive all rights to my a capella Tangerine Dream singing. If Jesse, you waive all rights to your improvised meditation patter?
jesse
So waived.
john
There it is. There's justice for you.
jesse
Andrea wrote in asking for some advice. She says: "My boyfriend ruined a plot twist in the movie John Wick while I was watching it, even though I kept telling him not to. Then instead of apologizing, he told me it—quote—'doesn't matter.'" [John snorts.] "Unquote. Should I break up with him? By the way, I bought in-flight Wi-Fi to ask you this." [Laughs.]
john
[Distressed laughter.] I remember in-flight Wi-Fi! [Sighs.] Wasn't that a time? [Jesse laughs quietly.] Jesse Thorn! You know—remember I was saying I had never seen the movie Thief?
jesse
Yes.
john
I've also never seen John Wick 2, 3... is there a fourth one?
jesse
I think there's only three so far. And there's a fourth one on the way, maybe?
john
Maybe it's called John Wick: Forthcoming? (Fourth Coming.)
jesse
Yeah. Wow. [Both laugh.]
john
I've also never seen John Wick 1.
jesse
[Laughing] People are still listening to our show, John.
john
Arguable.
jesse
[Laughing] John Wick: Fourth Coming.
john
[Laughs.] They're all listening in their sleep! It doesn't matter! We're their dream friends! We're but elf cobblers, putting together their mental shoes for the next day. But I've never seen a John Wick. I've never seen one Wick!
jesse
I've only seen John Wick 2.
john
Why that one??
jesse
Because I had had half a day of work where I didn't have any appointments, and it was playing at the movie theater right by my house where it costs $6.
john
Right.
jesse
It's a great first-run movie theater that costs $6. And I was like "I'm gonna go, by myself, to John Wick 2," and John Wick 2 was great. [Laughs.] John Wick 2 was awesome.
john
Everyone loves a Wick. I mean, I'm not bragging when I say I've never seen a Wick. Everyone I know adores these films. You know who's a big, uh, Wicki?
jesse
Who's that?
john
If you look him up in the Wikipedia of John Wick fans?
jesse
Mm-hm?
john
Lin-Manuel Miranda.
jesse
Yeah, I bet Lin's a big Wickster.
john
Kinda got mad at me when I said I'd never seen a Wick! [Jesse laughs quietly.] Like, you don't see Lin-Manuel Miranda mad often.
jesse
He's known for his ill temper. [Laughs.]
john
Yeah. [Laughs.] He killed my dog! That's not true. [Jesse laughs.] I know that happens in a Wick! Did I spoil it? Sorry, Andrea. Did I spoil the thing that your boyfriend spoiled for you? I think that's the inciting incident of the original Wick, is that a beloved pet is done dirty. But beyond that, I don't know what the spoiler could be. So I am perfect impartial when I say: Andrea's boyfriend, don't spoil things for people! Especially if they ask not to be! It does matter! It doesn't "doesn't" matter, it does matter! To people's enjoyment of films! Even though by now, everyone should have seen Wick. At least one Wick. I agree. I'm behind the times, I get it. Next time you wanna spoil a Wick for someone, Andrea's boyfriend? Email me, hodgman@maximumfun.org. I encourage you—[stifles laughter] I encourage you and everyone who needs a little distraction right now to write me with as many Wick spoilers as you can. Like, totally ruin this movie franchise for me. And I don't care whether they are real John Wick spoilers or fictional John Wick spoilers. I will enjoy—that will make it all the more exciting for me as I sift through the truth and the falsehood, as I embark on my John Wick journey here in shelter-in-place. Hodgman@maximumfun.org. For all your true and fake John Wick spoiler needs. And boyfriend? Leave Andrea alone next time. You're wrong.
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[Three gavel bangs.]
jesse
The John Wick I saw didn't even have a plot. I mean, here's the thing: I agree with you completely. I'm 100% on board. There is merit to his claim that it doesn't matter, because I've never seen a less plot-dependent film than John Wick.
john
Mm-hm.
jesse
It is a pure aesthetic exercise.
john
Mm-hm.
jesse
And the plot is he needs to get revenge. [Both laugh.] That's—that's it. He has to fight the people that stand between him and revenge. There is no plot particularly. But I agree entirely. I would say, though, as long as I'm recommending beautifully executed tense genre films, a great film in the [stumbling over hard and soft "J" sounds] John Wick—in the John Wick genre— [John chuckles.] In the Genre Wick.
john
Gen—right. Is there a French version of this movie called [Frenchly] Jean Wick? [Both laugh.]
jesse
But another movie that is sort of a halfway point in between Thief and John Wick that I really love, and would recommend for in-home viewing, is the movie Haywire. It's a movie starring the woman who was an MMA champion who went on to become the female lead of Star Wars the television show. And she doesn't really act in the movie, she just kicks different butts. And it's directed by Steven Soderbergh—
john
Right! I was gonna say, this is a Soderbergh joint, right?
jesse
Yeah. And it is so beautiful, and so cool, and she just makes different faces and then kicks people's butts. [John snorts.] And it's really great. It's like—I really love a really well-executed, not-stupid action movie.
john
Okay!
jesse
And it is so not stupid, and so beautiful, and so thrilling. I recommend it. Haywire.
john
Alright. Now I—that's a—that's three for three now, movies that I have not seen, and I'm very embarrassed. But I really wanna see Haywire. Nobody send me any spoilers for Haywire! Send all your spoilers for John Wick to hodgman@maximumfun.org.
jesse
Here's a spoiler for Haywire: she needs to get revenge.
john
[Laughs.] Yeah...
jesse
[Stifling laughter] Let's take a quick break. More items on the docket—
john
I feel the same way. [Both laugh quietly.]
jesse
—coming up in just a minute on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.
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[Three gavel bangs.]
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Music: Fun, upbeat music. Dave Hill: Hi! I'm Dave Hill. From before. And I'm very excited to bring Dave Hill's Podcasting Incident back to Maximum Fun, where it belongs! You can get brand new episodes every Friday on MaximumFun.org. Or, you know, wherever. And what my partner Chris Gersbeck and I might lack in specific subject matter on our podcast, we make up for in special effects! Chris, add something cool. Right here! [Gunshot or whip snap.] Also, we have explosions! [Explosion.] Animal noises. [A goat braying.] And sometimes, even this! [Two comedic timpani "boings," a springier "sproing" sound, and what sounds like a human scream.] Dave Hill's Podcasting Incident! Every Friday on Maximum Fun. Chris, do another explosion right here. [Another explosion, right here.] [Music stops.]
sound effect
[Three gavel bangs.]
jesse
Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. We're... in our bunkers this week, clearing the docket! Jed says this: "My wife of 23 years and I attend a few professional baseball games a year. We like to bring a bag of peanuts in the shell to enjoy. I remove the peanuts from the shell, eat them, and then deposit the empty shells on the ground by my feet. My wife thinks this is littering. She puts the shells back in the bag. I'd like you to rule that not only can I continue to drop the peanut shells on the ground, but she has to as well." [Both laugh.]
john
Oh, jeez! Jed!
jesse
"My arguments—" [laughs]. Really a stretch there! "My arguments: Number one, peanut shells are biodegradable. [Questioningly and stifling laughter] Number two, birds can use them to build their nests."
john
Hm.
jesse
"And number three, if the cleaning crew has no shells to clean up after the game, they will finish faster and thus earn less money."
john
Wow. I mean... look. I'm no bird nest expert, so I'm not gonna evaluate the second argument. I have a feeling the peanut shells are not good nesting material? 'Cause you would think they would need to be kinda long and weave-able. But what do I know?
jesse
Yeah, they're too crackly.
john
Too cr—I mean, I wouldn't wanna sit in a nest of shells!
jesse
Yeah, but you'd have to ask boid.
john
Yeah. Hey, boids! [Both laugh quietly.] Uhhh, but that last argument—I mean, to make the argument that Jed is not causing undue harm by leaving his shells all around, since the cleaning crew is gonna clean up the stands anyway; it's just adding to the detritus that they're gonna work—well... okay. But to say that you're helping them by giving them more of your own mouth trash to pick up... Uh, I'm not sure how I feel about that.
jesse
Here's the thing, John.
john
Yeah.
jesse
I think we may have found a case where justice has been stretched to the breaking point through spurious claims.
john
[Laughs.] Uh-huh? Well, I was gonna ask you, like—I've not been to many baseball games, so I don't know ballpark etiquette! Like, what do you do—what do—we've had some discussions in the past on the podcast about trash at the ballpark. What is the way that one deals with one's trash at the ballpark?
jesse
One leaves one's trash under one's seat.
john
That is accepted.
jesse
Yeah. Absolutely. I—rare is the aisle in a ballpark that at the end of the game does not have a pile of peanut shells underneath it. The floor is made of concrete. People sweep in and sweep as soon as the game ends. And I know this from a childhood spent searching the aisles for collectible soda cups at the end of the game. [Both laugh.]
john
What was your top cup? Like, what were you looking for?
jesse
Well, I mean, I was a San Francisco Giants fan. I was over there at Candlestick Park. I think I'd probably be looking for... uh, depends on the era, but probably a Kirk Rueter cup.
john
Uh-huh.
jesse
Known as "Woody" because he looked like Woody from Toy Story. Had little stick-out-y ears.
john
[Laughs.] Oh! Yeah! I'd—I'd drink a soda pop from one of those cups! And you're also putting stuff under the seat, obviously, to provide happy and productive employment for all those... stadium employees! Right? [Jesse laughs.] You were thinking "I'm giving them more work to do; they'll clock out later! They'll see their own children later—"
jesse
[Laughing] His thing—
john
"—but thank me because they had more work to do."
jesse
I feel so strongly that this guy has justice on his side.
john
Right.
jesse
But I also so badly want to punish him—
john
Yeah.
jesse
—for saying his—he wants the ruling to be—[laughs] that his wife has to put them on the ground even though she's uncomfortable with it. That birds need these to line their nests... [Laughs.] And that it's some kind of full employment program like the Works Progress Administration!
john
[Laughs.] Yeah, that's right. They need these shells to paint their socialist murals later on! [Jesse laughs.] I feel you on this one. I mean, on the one hand, he is admirably Kantian in his reasoning. Immanuel Kant of course being the philosopher who came up with the, um—tch—not the Prime Directive! What do—[chuckles]—what do we call it again? I just had it at the tip of my fingers. [Jesse laughs.] Uh—
jesse
[Dying of laughter] The Prime Directive... Yeah...
john
[Laughs.] Leave that—
jesse
The first rule of robotry! [Laughs.]
john
The categorical imperative! And I just wanna make it clear, I did not Google that. I did—[laughs] I had it; I was like "The categorical imperative. Don't mess this up, John. Don't mess this up." And I was like "Prime Directive?" [Both laugh.] No. The categorical imperative, which is that one should act in a manner consistent that what they do should be a universal law. That everyone should do it. And he is basically—he's kind of Kant in an aggro sense. He's like "I'm throwing my peanut shells underneath my seat. I believe that this is morally correct. Therefore, uh, beloved wife, you are immoral to gather up your peanut shells and take them outside. That's what Immanuel Kant would say." But I think Immanuel Kant would say "Get outta here, ya bum!" Like a baseball fan? Is that what you say?
jesse
[Laughs.] Yeah, "Get outta here, ya boids!"
john
"Ya boids!" [Laughs quietly.] "THAT'S FOR THE BOIDS, YA BUM!" That's what Immanual Kant would say. She's operating in a similar Kantian point of view, which is that she believes it is moral to take the shells away. And indeed, if universally everyone did take their shells away, that would leave for cleaner and less work for the people in the stands. Here's what I'm going to say. Jed, I will defer to the expertise of my bailiff, Jesse Thorn. As I have learned on this podcast before, it is customary to leave your trash underneath the seat at the ballpark. And I hope we will all have a chance to do that again soon. Jed is correct—or let's say he's not wrong, in following this custom. But he has no moral imperative to compel his wife to do the same. She may do what she considers to be moral in this case. Neither of them are doing damages to the other by following their own moral code in this case. And I agree with my friend and bailiff Jesse Thorn that while Jed gets the W in this case, his specious argumentativeness makes me also want to brush him back a bit... with a fast pitch of extra justice.
jesse
[Stifling laughter] Mm-hm.
john
You should have taken the win, Jed! And not mouthed off to the ump about all your dumb arguments! [Jesse laughs quietly.] About nests and such! Next time you go to the ballpark, I want you to test your arguments. Are peanut shells biodegradable? Obviously. But they're not going to be nutrients to the concrete!
jesse
[Laughing] That's why there's always a thick layer of mulch under ballpark seats.
john
Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! They're not gonna enrich the soil of the stands! You're not gonna get loam out of 'em! I'm not gonna ask you to sit around and wait and watch a bird make a nest out of your dispensed shells. But I do compel you—even though I find in your favor—next time you leave the shells under your seat, after the game, go up to a member of the cleaning crew and say "I left all of my peanut shells under the seat, 'cause I figured if it made you work longer, you would get more paid hours. Does that sound right to you?" And see what happens. That's my sentence to you, Jed. I find in your favor, but now you have to speak to another human being—a person whose job it is to clean up your trash after you—and verify your theory. If this person says "Yeah, you know what? Thanks. You know, sometimes we get outta here too soon. Sometimes I get home before it's dark. Sometimes I have a chance to play with my kids. And, uh, I'm haunted by the fact that I didn't make an extra... 10, 12, $7.50 an hour, whatever the minimum wage is in the state." See what they say! If I'm wrong, let me know.
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[Three gavel bangs.]
john
Phew. You're out, ya bum. [Jesse laughs quietly.] Boids. For the boids!
jesse
I thought your extended baseball metaphors were... an inside-the-park home run.
john
[Snorts.] I don't know what that means, but thanks.
jesse
[Laughs quietly.] Here's something from Gary: "Hello, Judge John Hodgman. I need your help. I prefer to eat a big messy hamburger with a knife and fork."
john
Mm!
jesse
"This allows me to eat without getting cheese and stuff down the front of my chest."
john
Ohhh, wow! That was a real whiplash of descriptive word salad, from appealing to disgusting! Alright, go on.
jesse
[Stifles laughter.] "My wife finds this practice barbaric, embarrassing, and disgusting. She claims the people we're eating with are horrified. She feels a hamburger is to be eaten with the hands. Many of today's excellent burgers are enormous and very messy. Please, Judge Hodgman, send me a ruling at your earliest convenience."
john
Well, it is almost convenient for me to rule. But first I will ask Jesse Thorn: do you prefer—and this goes for whatever your burger might be, whether it is a beef burger or a veggie burger, or a Beyond or Impossible, or Undefinable meat burger, or a—or a chicken or turkey or whatever it is. Do you prefer something with a—we'll say a patty—a small patty in a compact form, easily held up by the hand? Or like a big, multi-decker, multi-condiment, multi-layer bonanza of flaves?
jesse
Wow. That's a big question, John. It just so happens that I made myself a cheeseburger for lunch.
john
Wow!
jesse
Today. Before we recorded this program. Not 45 minutes before the recording of this program.
john
Well, I wish I had been there!
jesse
I made myself a four-ounce thin patty extra crust cheeseburger with a slice of American cheese on it.
john
Yeah.
jesse
What is often known as, these days, a smash burger.
john
Smash burgs!
jesse
But that is something that I have come to relatively recently in my life.
john
Mm-hm.
jesse
I was never a big consumer of fast food cheeseburgers.
john
Mm-hm. Right.
jesse
Just wasn't part of my life, until I moved to Southern California and In-N-Out was regularly available to me.
john
Right.
jesse
Which is a lot—a dramatic three steps up from, uh, any of the chains that were available to me in Northern California.
john
Right.
jesse
And historically, my preference has been for a thicker burger. I like a medium-rare burger.
john
Mm-hm.
jesse
I like to have some textural contrast between the outside and the inside, and I like—I like big flavors. I like stuff like grilled onions and bleu cheese and stuff on burgers.
john
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
jesse
But I respect both burgers very deeply. I have come to really enjoy a lots-of-crispy-on-the-outside burger, and in fact made cheeseburgers for my family a couple of days ago and made them with two-ounce patties. Per the instructions of—
john
Ooh!
jesse
—friend of the Judge John Hodgman podcast, Kenji López-Alt.
john
Yeah!
jesse
Who calls them ultimate smash burgers.
john
Yeah, that's a thin burg!
jesse
Yeah. It's like 90 seconds on one side, 30 seconds on the other.
john
Yeah.
jesse
And it's extra crust, extra cheese, and very tasty!
john
I mean, you're right in that the style—first of all, a hamburger is not a sandwich. I won't get into that fight right now. But a hamburger is a hamburger. It is its own thing, culturally and gastronomically, in my opinion. Which happens to be right. But the hamburger is—has diverged. It has evolved. There are those who claim—and I'm not going to dispute them—that the hamburger was invented at Louis' Lunch in New Haven, Connecticut. Which would be a broiled piece of ground meat served on toast, with no ketchup, but tomato. And from there you move into the roadside stand hamburger, which is what In-N-Out is the most recent evolution of. These were foods that were served to go, to be eaten by the hand. In a car, or in a drive-in, or on—you know, on your way. But then the hamburger started being served in pubs and restaurants, and I feel like we started to see these massive burgers being served, in my experience, in sort of like—in the eighties, at like a Joe's American Bar & Grill on Newbury Street in Boston, or whatever. And they would just get more and more elaborate and ornate, and restaurant-y! And my feeling is that if you were to deconstruct a big, heavy-duty, restaurant-y hamburger, with a large bunch of protein and a large bunch of toppings and a large bunch of condiments, and you were to deconstruct that with a knife and fork, you would be within your rights. Because what you are getting is essentially a kind of—a stacked hamburger-style salad. [Jesse laughs.]
john
And I feel like that's what Gary is talking about. I am someone who prefers not to eat a lot of bread, but does enjoy a hearty protein with a bunch of condiments on it, and will often order a medium-rare cheeseburger in a restaurant, and I will pull that thing apart with knife and fork and eat it like that. So I can't find against Gary any more than I would find against me. But when it comes to that original iteration of the hamburger... if you sat down in Louis' Lunch in New Haven and started eating—I mean, they don't have knives and forks there. You would have to bring in your own knife and fork, and what kind of ghoul would you be at that point? If you were to eat an In-N-Out burger with a knife and a fork, bun and all, I think that that would be an insult to the chemistry of what a hamburger is in that context. Do you disagree, Jesse? That's where I'm leaning on this. Do you wanna sway me one way or the other? Do you have a strong opinion that I should know before I bring down the hammer of justice on this one?
jesse
I think you're dead-on. I would eat no hamburger with a knife and fork, but I'm not a big fan of knife-and-fork policing.
john
Yeah.
jesse
You know, I don't care if people wanna eat pizza with a knife and fork. I don't—you know, I don't care. But I do think that while I wouldn't recommend a knife and fork for a big fat burger, for an In-N-Out–style burger, for a griddle-cooked thin burger, it's—it is a little beyond the pale.
john
Yeah, that's too much.
jesse
Yeah.
john
But like, you know, I have to say, Jesse, I admire your brio. Because I have not nearly the volume of beard that you do. [Jesse laughs.] And part of the reason I knife-and-fork it on a big, tall, thick restaurant/pub burger is that I'm afraid of walking out of there with special sauce all over my whiskers! Like—but that's cool! Like, if you can pick up one of those big old honkin' burgers, and get your chompers around it, and leave your beard pristine or not feel self-conscious, go for it. That's amazing. That is truly terrific. But I give Gary leave to use knife and fork, and I don't think that he should be belittled by his wife as a reason. Unless it is, of course, a classic drive-thru hamburger.
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jesse
Let's take a quick break! When we come back—
john
Jesse—Jesse, before we go. A little tease. After the break... I'm gonna tell you where I had the greatest cheeseburger of my life.
jesse
Ooh la la! [Stifling laughter] Let's take a break. When we come back, uh, we'll have a case about eating and drinking in the bathroom.
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jesse
Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. We're clearing the docket this week. Here's something from Adam.
john
You don't wanna hear about the greatest cheeseburger in my life?
jesse
Oh, I thought you were gonna work it in. Yeah, no, I wanna hear about this burger! What's the story?
john
The place I had it? Before it was closed? Venice, Italy. [Beat.]
jesse
[Laughing] What?
john
Where did I get it from? ...McDonald's. [Jesse laughs.] I never eat fast food. I'll occasionally get something from In-N-Out. I appreciate all the harm that the McDonald's corporation in particular has done for our planet, never mind the good that they've done for public radio. It's all in balance. But I was in Venice, and I had eaten so much good food, but so much same food. 'Cause it's basically just prosciutto and cheese and okay pasta, and pretty good pizza that people eat with a knife and fork over there. Food is not what Venice is/was/will be about, when it revives as we all hope it will. But I passed by this McDonald's this one day on our walking-arounds... and I was like—I felt this perverse—Edgar Allen Poe calls it the imp of the perverse. This like—the feeling you have when you're standing above a precipice, and you just wanna jump off! I was like "I need to get that cheese—I haven't had one of these in years! I'm gonna get the cheeseburger!" And I resisted, but the next day we're—walked by it again. I'm like "I'm gonna go in and get it." And boy, was it so... itself, intrinsically? Fine. But contextually, [stifles laughter] so exciting and transgressive and nourishing! I think about it every day. I think about the people of Venice every day. I hope you're doing okay. And I—and of course I ate it with my hands. Alright.
jesse
[Laughs.] Here's something from Adam: "I'd like a ruling that drinking and/or eating in the bathroom is gross. I'd also like an injunction against my wife Laura from doing so. For years, I've walked into the bathroom to find coffee cups, bottles of kombucha, and other drinks left around the bathroom sink. That's gross. What makes it grosser is she'll continue to drink from them, even after they've been left in the bathroom for hours. She doesn't think there's anything wrong with this."
john
I'm less inclined now than I may have been a few months ago to question anyone's... uh, sense of germ awareness. I won't even call it a phob—germophobia. Germ awareness. I mean, we've heard many cases in the past about—from people who believe that bathrooms are essentially, atmospherically unclean, and that anything in there—even though that is a place of washing and hygiene, anything that's in there for any period of time has to be thrown away or whatever. And perhaps we are rightly more attuned to germ theory now than we were before. I mean, not every bathroom is an airplane bathroom, which is used by many people and is full of aerosolized poop and pee with every flush. I mean, to me, it's fine to bring a cup of coffee into the bathroom. Just as it's fine to keep a glass in the bathroom that you use to rinse your mouth out after a toothpaste. But this idea of leaving it in there for hours, and then drinking from it later... perhaps it's just the way our bacterial culture has changed, or our viral culture has changed, over the past few weeks. But this is now starting to gross me out, too. Jesse, what do you think?
jesse
As you know, I don't drink alcohol. I'm always impressed when I hear about someone drinking a beer in the shower.
john
Well, it's good for your hair.
jesse
[Laughs.] I just—I—and especially because, I don't know, for some reason it feels... it—it's—maybe because I first heard of the idea from comedian Kyle Kinane, who's a friend of mine, a wonderful comedian and a wonderful man.
john
Doesn't have a lot of hair. Does—I don't think he's shampooing with that beer.
jesse
[Laughs.] Does not have a lot of hair, yeah.
john
No.
jesse
Very short hair.
john
Yeah.
jesse
But... [sighs]. Yeah—I mean, I would never do it. But... I'm hesitant to prohibit someone else from doing it, because I—it's funny. Like, I am having a similar but also dissimilar reaction to current conditions, which is to say that I feel like I am working extra hard to be thoughtful of germs, but also working extra hard not to have a big emotional reaction about germs?
john
Mm-hm.
jesse
And I don't know that it is actually bad, in any meaningful way. But I mean, I wouldn't bring a club sandwich in there.
john
Yeah, no. I wouldn't, either. And I would say—with regard to having a beer in the shower? That's a lot like having a McDonald's cheeseburger in Venice.
jesse
[Laughing] Yeah.
john
It's just the feeling of "I'm doing something I shouldn't." [Chuckles.] And not because it is unhygienic to drink a beer in the shower. The shower is the place where—I mean, you know, you're getting clean every second in that shower! Everything's being washed away. It's really more the idea of like, "I'm drinking alcohol in a place I'm not supposed to." And in—often out of a glass container, in a tile shower. None of this should be happening, and it's a delight. And while I normally do not drink beer at all... now I'm feeling like a shower beer is in order for me at some point soon! [Jesse laughs quietly.] But yeah. I mean, I feel that there is something disgusting about Adam's letter. Let me revisit it. [Murmurs indistinctly.] "Like an injunction against my wife Laura... I've walked into the bathroom to find coffee cups, bottles of kombucha, and other drinks left around the bathroom sink." AHA! There is something very wrong here! We do not know whether Laura's kombucha is being invaded by cooties during the time that she leaves it absent for Adam to later find. But we do know she is leaving her junk behind for her husband to later find! Don't leave your junk behind for someone to find! Don't leave half-empty cups of coffee and kombuch, or whatever else is going on, or a half-finished club sandwich, in the bathroom! That is intrinsically gross. Even if you are a pre-Renaissance physician and you don't believe germs are real... that's gross! That's labor left behind for someone else, Laura! It's disgusting. And whether or not you take that food outta there and drink it again, that's between you and your god or whatever. But don't leave your food and drink behind in the bathroom; that's gross. It would be gross for any room. And for some reason especially now, in the time of corona, it's extra gross. Don't do it. Don't do it. I find in favor of Adam.
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jesse
I do have one piece of cultural context that I think is appropriate to mention.
john
Please! Please.
jesse
Speaking very broadly, I think that for—at least in my experience here in the United States—I think many women have a different relationship to the bathroom than do many men.
john
Mm-hm.
jesse
I think not only is there the classic sense that a public bathroom is a social space for women in a way that it is not for men, but more specifically a private bathroom is a place where many women are doing many things other than, uh, their number ones and number twos.
john
Mm-hm.
jesse
Whereas for many men, the bathroom is really a place for, uh, using the potty, brushing teeth—
john
Mm-hm, mm-hm.
jesse
—maybe washing their face or hands. [Laughs.] It's—
john
I hope by now they're washing their faces and their hands.
jesse
Yeah. [Laughs.] And I think to the extent that Adam's wife Laura is bringing, for example, a coffee cup into the bathroom, it may be because she needs her morning coffee—
john
Yeah!
jesse
—and she expects to use the bathroom for preparing for her day much more than Adam does. And so I'm glad that this ruling provides some leeway for her to do these two things that she needs to do in the morning.
john
Absolutely!
jesse
Whether it's hair or makeup or whatever other prep she has to do for the day that Adam likely doesn't have to do.
john
Adam may find Laura's bringing coffee and kombucha into the bathroom distasteful for... a lot of reasons. Maybe the ones that he says, or maybe he's just using germophobia as a cover for the fact that her bringing in a cup of coffee announces she's gonna be in that bathroom for a long time, and that bugs him. Because he wants to get in there too. It's a very highly-contested piece of territory in any house. But I agree! Absolutely! Laura should feel free to bring in her coffee, her kombucha... you know, maybe a chafing tray full of hot hors d'oeuvres. [Laughs.] I don't know! All I'm saying, Laura, is don't leave your garbage behind you. This isn't a ballpark! Adam is not being paid by the hour to clean up your peanut shells! Get your junk outta there when you're done.
jesse
You know me, John. I'm a bear if I don't get my morning 'buch.
john
[Snorts.] Your morning "'buch"?! For "kombucha"?
jesse
[Laughing] Yeah, I gotta get my morning 'buch.
john
What's your favorite flavor of kombucha?
jesse
[Stifling laughter] None. [Both laugh.] No—no thank you.
john
Well!
jesse
[Laughing] You can keep your mother spore to yourself.
john
There goes our kombucha advertising dollars. [Both laugh.]
jesse
John, I think—I think because I'm a native of the city of San Francisco, a city of many hippies and artsy types—at least when I lived there—I had experience with people making kombucha in like 1992. When it really involved... buckets.
john
Yeah.
jesse
[Laughing] And like, it was basically the same as making like, compost tea?
john
Yeah, I forgot you're an old-school 'buch brewer.
jesse
[Laughs.] Yeah! And right from the start I was against it. I think if I had come in on "It comes in a bottle and it has a flavor," I might have been on board. [Laughs.] But basically the kombucha that I was reared on was a family friend's toilet hooch.
john
[Disgusted laugh.]
jesse
[Laughing] And it was basically hippie Pruno. [Both laugh.] And I would—I am not on board.
john
Yeah. But you know what? You're not Laura, and, um... be glad you don't have to live and bathe with her.
jesse
So we also heard from a listener named Samantha about a past episode: "I teach English online to students in China. Being a long-time listener of Judge John Hodgman, I've developed the habit of asking people 'What did you do today?' And I almost always ask that question to my students. I have now had several parents leave feedback on my lessons saying they love that I ask that question, because A, it appears more thoughtful than the standard 'How are you?' and B, it gives them the opportunity to practice conversational English. So thank you for giving me a small but very useful way to interact with my students."
john
Oh, wow! Thank you, Samantha, so much! Of course I have to give my thanks to the memory of the very sadly departed Lee K. Abbott, who was my writing teacher in the early nineties. He taught me how to write short stories, along with Donald Faulkner and Tom Beratta, during a summer writing program I took at Yale University. Lee K. Abbott wrote many, many, many great short stories and books of short stories, including The Heart Never Fits Its Wanting. Please look into him; he's an incredible writer. He passed away last year, at an acceptable but still too-young age. And one of the things that struck me was when I called him at one point just to say hello, 'cause I loved talking to him, and he—instead of saying "How are you?" he said "Hey, John, what'd you do today?" And suddenly I had a story to tell him! 'Cause I did something that day! And it's been such a great conversation opener. So I'm so glad that that's been helpful to you, Samantha. And Jesse, I believe that Samantha actually sent in a clip of her doing her instruction with her student. So maybe we can listen to that now.
clip
Samantha: Hi, Amy! Amy: Hi! Samantha: How are you? Amy: I am happy today! Samantha: Me too! So happy to see you! What did you do today? Amy: It is someone go to my house that is a boy. Samantha: A boy came to your house today? Did you guys play? Amy: Yes! Samantha: What did you play? Amy: Two—two boys go to my house.
clip
Samantha: Two boys came to your house? What did you do with the boys? Amy: Hide and seek! [Samantha gasps delightedly.] Amy: I am counting and the boys hide. Samantha: Did you find them? Amy: Yes. Samantha: Oh, you're so good at hide and seek! Can you find me? Where am I? Amy: You—you are... under your hands. ...You are—you are behind Dino. Samantha: I'm behind Dino! You found me! Good job, Amy!
jesse
Yaaay!
john
Yaaay! Look, we're all having a hard time. People in China, people all over the world. It's hard for us to talk remotely to one another. It's something that I hope we don't have to do. I hope we don't have to be constantly talking remotely to each other, Jesse! I hope that I can see your nice face and yours, Jennifer Marmor, in person, within six feet soon. But I am really, really, really, really, really grateful that we have this podcast and all of this long-distance technology to bring us these moments like Samantha shared with us, that are just... give us hope and cheer to move on. So thank you.
jesse
The docket is now clear. That's it for another episode of Judge John Hodgman. Our producer is Jennifer Marmor. Follow us on Twitter at @JesseThorn and @hodgman. We're on Instagram at @judgejohnhodgman. Make sure to hashtag your Judge John Hodgman Tweets #JJHo, and check out the Maximum Fun subreddit to discuss this episode. Submit your cases at MaximumFun.org/jjho or email hodgman@maximumfun.org.
john
Send in your Wick spoilers!
jesse
[Laughs.] We're gonna have all new episodes of Judge John Hodgman every week going forward. Whether you like it or not. We've got a lot of live episodes and a couple that we recorded before the big news, and we'll be making some new docket episodes. And if it comes to it, we'll try and figure out how to get the courtroom going virtually. And we're so grateful that all of you are sticking with us in this tough time. We're thinking of you and we're very grateful for you.
john
Yeah. We're very proud to keep you company. Thank you.
jesse
We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.
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