Transcript
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under the Stairs. [Music continues under the dialogue, then fades out.]
oliver wang
Hello! I’m Oliver Wang.
morgan rhodes
And I’m Morgan Rhodes. You’re listening to Heat Rocks. This is a special episode brainstormed by our producer, Christian, who suggested that with Father’s Day coming up, maybe we’d want to do a father-daughter/son music special.
oliver
We all like the idea. Though I gotta say, none of us had this idea around Mother’s Day, and maybe it’s because mother and daughter/son music isn’t nearly as intuitive as a theme, because of—I don’t know, patriarchy, perhaps. [Morgan chuckles.] Morgan, should we make this up by doing a Mother’s Day special next year?
morgan
I think so, ‘cause that’s so shady that we left mothers out. [Oliver laughs.] We should definitely, definitely do that.
oliver
Well, for this Father’s Day special, we each picked three songs, and two are songs that feature some kind of father/child combo in some fashion or other, and the third song is gonna be personal to us—with me talking about music and my relationship to my 15-year-old daughter, and Morgan talking about music and her dad. But let’s start it here, though. And to circle back to my earlier observation: Morgan, why do you think it is that father/child music does seem kind of prominent in pop music?
morgan
You know, this is a theory that would probably bear some—you know—more research and investigation, but I think it’s because the assumption is that there’s a lack of attention paid to fathers, and that there needs to be—that there needed to be songs to make up for that. I think it’s the assumption that we all love our mothers. We’re gonna wax on and on and on. And people need to shoutout the fathers. Fathers don’t get enough attention, so when Father’s Day comes, make a big deal about it, because Mother’s Day gonna—mothers are gonna get better gifts. The card—[laughs] the range of cards is gonna be better. And dads are gonna get socks. And so, I think this is a pushback against sonic sock giving. And so, that’s why they have shown up in pop music—to make up for when we miss them.
oliver
Well, I thought about this a bit more systemically. I suppose this is due to my sociological background here. But I’m wondering if families that have a famous musical father are more likely to raise kids who themselves go into the music business, as opposed to families that have a famous musical mother. And I wasn’t really joking when I said that I think patriarchy plays some role here, because I think—and this maybe speaks partly to your point, Morgan—I think society tends to honor mothers on a personal level, but when it comes to professional role models, we put up fathers as being, “Oh, well you should follow in the line of what your dad did.” So, if your dad was a musician or a singer or what have you, then that becomes a valid line of work. But because, historically, we don’t value women’s work, and therefore mother’s work, even if you have someone who is the level of—let’s say—a Madonna or a Beyonce or what have you, we don’t necessarily make this instant expectation that their kids would follow in those footsteps.
morgan
I agree with that. I mean, I’ve always heard, growing up, that the mother is the psychological parent. So, when there’s an injury, Dad buys the Band-Aids, but the mother heals the wounds. And so, I think we have relegated them to a certain—to your point—psychological place. And when I think about kids following in the business, I do think of—you know, bands like The Clark Sisters, Karen Clark—you know, her daughter, Kiki Sheard. And especially in gospel music, there’s so much legacy of that. But I think you make a valid point.
oliver
Well, let’s get deeper into those musical examples. And Morgan, you wanna go first with what song came to your mind, in terms of being a father/child combo?
morgan
I went with “Father’s Child”—a song by Michael Kiwanuka, who is a British artist of Ugandan descent. And from his second album, which was a tastemaker’s favorite. It’s called Love & Hate. And for those not aware of him, he’s been making a splash in the industry for almost a decade. I came to know him in late 2010, early ’11. He’s got an old soul. You know, he’s frequently compared to the soul crooners—Marvin Gay, Bill Withers. We, in the business—music supervisors—when someone gets synced a lot, we call them synchronized. [Oliver chuckles.] And so, he is synchronized, because he’s continually synced. I, myself, placed his song, “Love & Hate” on two different shows. On Queen Sugar and on Dear White People.
music
“Love & Hate” from the album Love & Hate by Michael Kiwanuka. Calling for my demons now to let me go I need something, give me something wonderful [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
Our former guest, Thomas Golubic, who came on to talk about De La Soul, placed his song “Rest” on Grace & Frankie.
music
“Rest” from the album Home Again by Michael Kiwanuka. Rest your hands Leave them tender [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
And his “Cold Little Heart” is the actual theme song to Big Little Lies.
music
“Cold Little Heart” from the album Love & Hate by Michael Kiwanuka. [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
So, his pen gets money. Okay? Trust and believe. If I had to describe the album in a word, it would be deep. And for, you know, more eloquent and compelling adjectives, refer to the review in Pitchfork which calls it a, quote, “Sustained, stylized plunge into despair. Plaints of isolation, doubt, lovelessness, racial injustice, longing, hopelessness, and a certain resolve despite it all often set to mournful, minor chords.” End quote. Uh, yeah. So, get into that. The song “Father’s Child” is also a bit mournful and introspective. And I love it. The surprising thing for somebody as churchy as I am—it took me a few listens for me to realize that he was actually talking about God.
music
“Father’s Child” from the album Love & Hate by Michael Kiwanuka. I've been searching for miles and miles Looking for someone to walk with me Walk with me (walk, walk) Walk with me (walk, walk) [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
Morgan, not to go off on a tangent here, but what helps an artist become synchronized? What separates the artist who’s well-synchronized opposed to the one that’s not?
morgan
That’s a good question. You know, I’ve talked about this with artists, and it really has to do with not just the quality of songs, but the ability of songs to be placed in different—you know, different narrative situations, I’ll say. And his songs are very emotional. The way they’re produced, they’re instantly cinematic. And he’s got some hardcore themes. I mean, Black man in a White world. I mean, everything that I described from the Pitchfork review is all of his songs in a nutshell. And they just lend themself to being synced. I mean, he’s—like I said, if you go to his page, he’s had some big syncs. And the fact that “Love & Hate” has been synced on not just the two shows that I named, but a couple of other shows tells you a lot about him. And I think the difference is: one, you need tastemakers to get behind you. I think that’s one. And I think you need to come to the attention of music supervisors pretty quickly.
music
“Father’s Child” from the album Love & Hate by Michael Kiwanuka. Walk with me, show me pure affection Walk with me, show me the right direction I am my father's child, even though I walk No more, no more I am more than things you won't forgive Walk with me I am more than things you won't forgive Walk with me So walk with me [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
Well, for my first example, I did go with a literal in this case duet between father and, in this case, daughter—though, I think it’s a bit more obscure than what others might assume. And part of this comes about from the fact that I’m currently working on liner notes for a reissue of Donny Hathaway’s debut album, which amazingly turns 50 years old this year: Everything is Everything. And of course, the best-known song—I think—off of that LP is “The Ghetto”. And if you listen closely—and this comes around close to the five-minute mark—you can hear the cries of Donny and Eulaulah Hathaway’s firstborn daughter, Lalah Hathaway, on here.
music
“The Ghetto” from the album Everything is Everything by Donny Hathaway. The ghetto Oh, yeah The ghetto, the ghetto The ghetto [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
I spoke with drummer Rick Powell, who produced the album and also wrote the original liner notes for it. And he says that this was his idea to bring Lalah into the studio and get her onto the microphone. And elsewhere, Eulaulah, her mother, had suggested that this might have been the first time a baby was brought onto a record like this. I wanna say that claim might be a little bit unlikely, only because by 1970 I just feel like there would’ve been 70+ years of recorded music, and probably somebody thought to bring a baby on. But nonetheless, I do like the idea that this being the first time. And certainly, you know, as Lalah Hathaway has obviously gone on to her own, very successful solo career, it’s nice to think of this as being her father’s first time recording a studio LP that she was featured on there, even if it’s a very small credit I think. And along similar lines, I think it’s also notable that Lalah does sing her father’s songs in concerts, but as far as I know she’s never recorded a studio version of one of his songs on one of her own recordings. She has—I think the closest that it’s come, she has however been a featured guest on a Donny Hathaway cover. And specifically, I’m thinking of the 2002 cover of “Someday We’ll All Be Free”, which was featured on Take 6’s album, Beautiful World.
music
“Someday We’ll All Be Free” from the album Beautiful World by Take 6. Keep your stride Never mind your fears Brighter days will soon be here Take it from me someday, we'll all be free [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
I definitely respect Lalah’s decision to wanna make her own recordings her own, which makes sense when you are the scion of a famous parent. But that said, I mean Donny’s compositions are so wonderful. Like, I could imagine Lalah doing a cover of, let’s say, “Thank You Master” that would just absolutely slay. And maybe she has done it in concert, but it’s not something that you’re gonna find on one of her studio LPs.
morgan
Well, she did cover his “A Song for You” at the festival—the jazz festival in Singapore a couple of years ago. It’s called Sing Jazz. It’s glorious, because she’s got, you know, so much of his voice, so much of the timbre of his voice, the quality of his voice you hear in her voice. She’s got an incredible voice that she does amazing things for. And I thought this was a really beautiful version.
music
“A Song For You” performed live by Lalah Hathaway. I know your image of me Is what I hoped to be I treated you unkindly But darling, can't you see? [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue.]
oliver
We will be back with more of our Father’s Day Special after a brief word from some of our sibling Max Fun podcasts. Keep it locked.
music
[Volume increases.] Baby, can't you see through me? 'Cause we're alone now And I'm singing this song to you [Song fades out.]
promo
Music: Cheerful banjo music plays in the background. Biz Ellis: Hi! I’m Biz. Theresa Thorn: And I’m Theresa. Biz: And we host One Bad Mother, a comedy podcast about parenting. Theresa: Whether you are a parent or just know kids exist in the world, join us each week as we honestly share what it’s like to be a parent. Biz: These are really hard questions! Theresa: They are really hard questions! Biz: [Voice getting louder and more agitated] I don’t have any answers for that! Theresa: I don’t either! Biz: [Yelling] Sack of garbage! Theresa: I know! Biz: [Yelling in frustration] Ahhhh! Ughhh! [Laughs wildly.] Ahhhh! The end of the show will just be five minutes of Biz— [Theresa giggles.] Biz: —and Theresa crying and screaming until the outro is played. So, join us each week as we judge less, laugh more, and remind you that you are doing a great job. Theresa: Find us on MaximumFun.org, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts!
promo
Music: Straightforward, thump-y electric bass guitar beat with light drums. Jackie Kashian: Hi, I’m Jackie Kashian. Laurie Kilmartin: Hi, I’m Laurie Kilmartin. Jackie: Aaand we have a podcast called, “The Jackie and Laurie Show.” Who are you, Laurie Kilmartin? Laurie: Oh, my God. So much pressure. Uh, let’s see, I’m a stand up. I’ve been doing stand-up since 1987. Uh, I’m a writer for Conan, I’ve written a couple books, have a couple CD’s out, have a special out. Who are you, Jackie? Jackie: Well, I too am a stand-up comic, since 1984. And, uh, I do the road like a maniac and, uh, don’t have a cool writing job, but I have four albums out. Working on a new album. We talk about stand-up. We talk about, uh, all the different parts of stand-up comedy. So, that’s The Jackie and Laurie Show, and you should subscribe on Maximum Fun if you want to hear that. Laurie: [Chuckles] And I would encourage you not to. [Jackie laughs.] [Music fades out.]
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under the Stairs.
morgan
And we are back on Heat Rocks, talking songs about fathers and their children. Oliver, what you got next?
oliver
I’ve talked about Rufus Wainwright, the Canadian singer-songwriter, on the show on numerous occasions. And I’ve been a fan of his songs for about 20 years, now. And in discovering him, it’s how I learned about both of his parents—both of whom are or I guess were legends in the Canadian folk music scene. His late mother was Kate McGarrigle of the McGarrigle Sisters. And his father is Loudon Wainwright III, who is still alive and still recording. And I discovered this in prep for today that one of Loudon’s earliest mentions of his song came on Loudon Wainwright III’s 1975 LP, Unrequited, with the song that’s entitled “Rufus is a Tit Man”, which is all about breastfeeding.
music
“Rufus is a Tit Man” from the album Unrequited by Loudon Wainwright III. Rufus is a tit man Sucking on his mamma's gland Sucking on the nipple It's a sweeter than the ripple wine. Yes, its sweeter than the wine. You can tell by the way the boy burps that it's gotta taste fine. [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
My mother’s gonna hear this and be like, “I thought you guys were staying spiritual on there?” But—
oliver
[Laughs.] He—Loudon is being pro-breastfeeding in a time before the kind of breastfeeding wars broke out in the ’90s and ’00s. So, he was a bit ahead of his time, albeit in a very crass way, I suppose.
morgan
And that’s what I’m gonna say to my mother. [Oliver laughs.] I’m gonna appeal to the artistic part of this song. This is my first time hearing that, actually. So.
oliver
It’s my first time, too. And it’s not the direction I thought it would’ve gone, except that I—until you remember that in 1975, Rufus would’ve been a baby, so it would’ve been very inappropriate to have been describing him as a tit man in any other context than perhaps breastfeeding. [Morgan agrees.] Yeah. In any case, I know the two men have had—I think they had a more difficult relationship when Rufus was a child. His parents divorced when he was young. But as adults, they seem to have reconciled. And they do frequently sing backup for one another on each other’s albums. But I was trying to find an example where the two of them sung on the same song as a duet, and the one example that I came across came out in 2012, on Loudon’s album Older Than My Old Man Now. Which is notable, because the title refers to his relationship to his own father, presumably, Loudon Wainwright II. And this is him and Rufus singing on the song together, called “The Days That We Die”.
music
“The Days That We Die” from the album Older Than My Old Man Now by Loudon Wainwright III. And I have to say, that the days that we die aren't that far away You'll never change neither will I We'll stay the same till the days that we die [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
One of the things I like about hearing the two of them together is that if you look at—listen to their body of work, there are certainly some places where they cross over, but for the most part I think they have very distinct musical and artistic identities. And vocally, too, you just would never confuse one with the other. And so, hearing them sing together, it’s not like you’re getting a mirrored effect. You’re really getting these two distinct personalities who are I think really great and accomplished artists in their own, individual rights who also happen to be related to one another. Now, obviously I’m sure that’s not [chuckles] coincidental. In other words, I don’t know if Rufus would’ve gotten to where he was if he didn’t grow up as the son of both Kate and of Loudon, but nonetheless, I like hearing them duetting together. Because it is so clear that they have—they come to these songs from their own experiences where some of it is shared, but a lot of it is kind of unique unto themselves. [Morgan agrees.]
music
“The Days That We Die” from the album Older Than My Old Man Now by Loudon Wainwright III. They stay the same, people like us, Folks wanna win when they can choose, But more important than that, folks don't wanna lose [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
Morgan, what’s your next choice?
morgan
Babyface and the title track to his album from 1996, “The Day”.
music
“The Day (That You Gave Me a Son)” from the album The Day by Babyface. And I felt blessings straight from God The day that you gave me a son [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
This one’s really beautiful, because it’s celebrating the day that he found out that he was having a son. It’s really beautiful and poignant in talking about how he cried all day and how he told everyone about it. I remember hearing the song on the album, but I also saw him perform it on Oprah—on an episode of Oprah. It was he and his wife. And he sang—you know, everyone was gushing and emotional about it. But I love that, because I’m not aware of that many songs where fathers talk about their child being born or that moment besides, you know, obviously Stevie Wonder’s “Isn’t She Lovely”, where you do hear the baby cry in the background, and he talks about—you know—his love for his baby.
oliver
Yeah. I’m wondering—his son would probably be somewhere in the ballpark of about 25 or 26 years old now, given how old this song is.
morgan
The first one, yeah.
oliver
Yeah! Has any of his kids followed in his footsteps into the music business, as far as you know?
morgan
I saw—I think on Instagram—that his son was interning with his ex-wife, who I think was a VP at Yab Yum Records back in the day and might still be in the music industry. But it would be interesting to find out if either one of his sons becomes a singer. So, that—no pressure. You just—you know, you’re just the child of Babyface. [Oliver laughs and agrees.] Or a songwriter. But god, you know, what a lineage. I mean, he is one of the greatest and most prolific songwriters of all time. And so, this song’s just—you know, an example of that.
music
“The Day (You Gave Me a Son)” from the album The Day by Babyface. I've never known, I can't remember It's like a song, I've never heard I've never sung, but know the words [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
Well, that was a very personal song, of course, by Babyface, talking about the birth of his son. And we wanted to end our segment here by getting real personal ourselves. And Morgan, certainly you’ve spoken frequently on the show about the role that music has played in your own relationship with your dad.
morgan
Yeah, and it should come as no surprise to our listeners that I chose Earth, Wind & Fire again.
oliver
Yuuup. Yep-yup.
morgan
There’s only like 640,000 Earth, Wind & Fire albums, but the 1979 album, I Am, is the one that I chose. And this is the album that “Boogie Wonderland” and “After the Love is Gone” are on. It was hard to pick an album, and it was hard to pick a song, because so many of them are connected to my father and I. And why I talk about Earth, Wind & Fire and the relationship it has with me and father so often is I credit that band and those songs for teaching me how to listen to music and teaching me—you know—what I think is music etiquette—especially when you’re in a car with someone or in a space with someone for whom a band is playing that they’re very attached to themselves—how to be respectful of that space, of sonic space. And also, it was my first experience of emotion connected with music—songs that made me cry, watching my father be joyful. “You and I” is the song that I picked, and it’s a love song. But it’s so sweet, and it just reminds me—every time I listen to Earth, Wind & Fire, I see my dad’s face. And luckily, he’s still with us, but I see his face and I recapture those moments of a very cool dude that loved music and was—you know—a stereo-fi, great sound systems in the car and the house. And I just thank him for helping me to listen to music.
music
“You & I” from the album RECORD by Earth, Wind & Fire. You and I living together You and I grooving forever [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
I just wanna say also that he’s part of the reason that so often I listen to music with my eyes closed. And not just personally, at home, when I’m listening to music, but when I’m preparing music or about to pitch music, because I’m—because of him and my relationship with him and music, in terms of my work, I’m more interested in how it feels than how it sounds. And I’m able to connect with how it feels when I listen to music with my eyes closed.
oliver
I’m curious, have you ever had a conversation with him about how he discovered Earth, Wind & Fire and what it is about the band that he loved so much about them?
morgan
You know, I haven’t. And that’s a great idea. I think maybe we—you know, we can sit down and maybe if we do another Father’s Day series, maybe I sit down and have a conversation with him about that. And maybe you sit down with your baby, and you talk about—you know—you guy’s relationship with music. I think that’s a great idea for an upcoming series. ‘Cause I am curious to know, you know, why them. He listened to a lot of stuff, and he’s got—he’s like music factoid summer camp. But it’s this—it’s Earth, Wind & Fire, that’s it for him. And I think it would be interesting to find out why they are it for him.
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under the Stairs.
morgan’s dad
Earth, Wind & Fire. One of the greatest bands ever. They’re innovative, precise, tight musicians—outstanding musicians—and feel-good music. I first heard the group in 1975 while I was in England. And that was the first time I purchased an Earth, Wind & Fire album. That’s the Way of the World. After I got back to the States, I continued to listen to that group and buy more of their albums. The music, as I said, was outstanding. The songs were uplifting, feel-good. Everybody can relate to that music. And here again, they were popular. I saw them first in Atlanta. The first show was mesmerizing. A lot of special effects, but what was more apparent was the fact that they were outstanding musicians, their music was good, and they was a tight group. That’s the Way of the World is still one of my favorite albums, and the title song, “That’s the Way of the World”, is one of my favorite tunes! That’s one of the songs that I would play at my funeral.
music
“That’s the Way of the World” from the album That’s the Way of the World by Earth, Wind & Fire. That's the way (that's the way) Of the world (of the world) Plant your flower (gonna plant your flower) And you grow a pearl Child is born with a heart of gold [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue.]
morgan’s dad
They’re impressive. Here again, there’s no greater group than Earth, Wind & Fire. [Song fades out.]
oliver
I don’t have really strong connections for myself around music and my father, who’s still around. He did listen to some pop music, growing up that I recall. So, something—you know, Simon & Garfunkel, maybe the Beatles. But generally speaking, we just never connected over music at all. And so, I oftentimes describe my own musical development as being very much separate from my parents. And I think especially growing up as the child of immigrants and Asian immigrants in particular, there just was not necessarily gonna be a lot of—I think—easy cases where you would see that kind of crossover happening, at least in my experience. But of course, I think this has been very different for myself and my daughter, Ella, who is now 15 years old. Because from early on, I was introducing her both in direct and indirect ways to all kinds of music, especially because I would drive her around and she would hear whatever I was listening to in the car. One of my earliest musical examples that comes to mind is a 1960 soul single by The New Holiday’s, called “Maybe So, Maybe No”. And I played it in the car so much—this was probably in the mid/late 2000s when Ella was, I don’t know, maybe four or five years old at most. And it was one of the first non-children’s songs that I recall her having memorized the lyrics to. Because, again, she heard me play it so often.
music
“Maybe So, Maybe No” by The New Holiday. Could it be that your love was meant for me? Maybe so, maybe no Could it be that your love was meant for me? Maybe so, maybe no [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
In fact, I have an example of her singing that hook that we taped when she was that age.
clip
Oliver: Hey, Ella, what song did you wanna hear in the car? Was it “Old McDonald”? [Ella babbles softly.] Oliver: What song is it? Ella: [Singing.] Maybe so, maybe no. Maybe so, maybe noooo. Oliver: Can you singing it for me? Ella: [Singing louder.] Maybe sooo! Maybeee noooo! Maybe so! Maybe nooo. Maybe sooo.
oliver
As she’s gotten older, however, the tables have turned. And I would say that these days, I am just as likely to learn about new music and new artists through her as opposed to the other way around. And case in point, I’m not sure if I would’ve naturally or organically come across listening to LA’s own Doja Cat if it wasn’t for Ella going around singing the hook to “Say So” all the time.
music
“Say So” from the album Hot Pink by Doja Cat. Day to night to morning, keep with me in the moment I'd let you had I known it, why don't you say so? Didn't even notice, no punches left to roll with [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
The two of us share a Spotify account, which gives each of us a window into what the other person listens to. And partly through that, I’ve been asking her to help me with programming different guest radio sets that I’ve been asked to do during lockdown. It’s just been an activity that occupies both of our time while we’re stuck at home together nonstop and gives us something to bond over. And it's through her playlist, which I let her pick the songs and she does most of the sequencing for them as well. It has really turned me on to a bunch of new artists, including this Welsh singer-songwriter, Cate le Bon. Who I’m almost positive there’s no way I would’ve discovered Cate le Bon if not through Ella. And now, I’m a very big fan of this 2013 song that le Bon recorded, called “Are You With me Now”, which reminds me a little bit of Karen Dalton’s work—which we had obviously talked about on this show a couple of months back.
music
“Are You With Me Now?” from the album Mug Museum by Cate le Bon. I see no reason Are you with me now Are Are you with me now [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
When you’re in the car with her—you know, when you guys are rolling out—do you let her also choose the music for the ride? Or do you shuffle? Or how do you do it?
oliver
You know, it’s funny you should ask that. Because it’s only been in the last I’d say maybe six months or so where she will deliberately ask as we get into the car—she basically will say, “Can I DJ?” Which means that she wants control over what we listen to, and she wants to pair her phone with the Bluetooth car system and play what she wants to play. And I would say, I don’t know, 60/40—or, I should say, let me flip that—40/60, I’ll say yes. But I’m so used to being in control of what’s in the car, because I drive all the time in my family. And the unofficial rule is whoever’s driving gets to choose what we listen—gets to choose the soundtrack. And so, I can sometimes, even though I like hearing what she listens to, I can get a little bit impatient. And since I have controls on the steering wheel, if there’s a song that comes on her playlist that I’m just not feeling, I’ll just—without asking permission—just skip over it. And she’ll get very indignant at me, in terms of why. It’ll be very interesting as—you know, she’s gonna qualify for her learners permit and her drivers license before I know it. And as she begins driving, no doubt she will assert the “Hey, I’m driving. I get to control the music,” rule. And then maybe I’m just gonna have to sit there and just deal with it, in terms of—or I’ll have to ask permission and say, “Wait, I wanna DJ today.” Even if she’s driving. So, we’ll see how that plays out as she gets older.
morgan
I asked because I went to visit my dad in Memphis—I went for a family reunion. My father’s from Memphis. And so, he did a lot of the driving. And I was like, “Is this the time that I suggest some tunes?” But I didn’t. And I think I just— [They laugh.] You know, I thought, “Let me let him bump his hits.” But more than anything else, I wanted to hear him talk. Because whenever he puts on a song, he talks about it. You know. And we’re riding through Memphis. And so, I wanted to hear all that he had to say. And he was playing a lot of blues, which surprised me ‘cause I expected to hear either Earth, Wind & Fire or fusion. But he played a lot of blues. And so, what I wish for you and for Ella is that—you know—when she grows up, that she remembers all these musical moments that you shared, just like I remember all of these with my dad.
oliver
Yeah. No, I certainly hope so as well. In place of our usual “you should next check out” recommendations, since we weren’t talking about a single album on today’s episode, we wanted to use that opportunity to throw out at least one more piece of music for folks to peep along today’s themes, in whatever fashion. And the song that I ended up going with is a bit of a stretch, because it’s really not a song about parenthood at all even though it has the word “fathers” in it. But it is off of something that I’ve been listening to a lot in recent weeks for perhaps kind of obvious reasons, which is Gil Scott Heron and Brian Jackson’s incredible collaboration, On Winter in America. Which came out I think in 1972 or ’73. And so much of that album—right now, especially—just resonates, in terms of their commentary on what was then Nixonian, Watergate-era America, and there’s sadly a lot of resonance you can find with our current moment, now. And the song that I was drawn to for this particular bonus cut is the song “Rivers of My Fathers”, from that LP.
music
“Rivers of My Fathers” from the album Winter in America by Gil Scott Heron and Brian Jackson. Let me lay down by a stream And let me be miles from everything Rivers of my Fathers [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
As I said, it’s not a song about parenthood. It’s really about—I mean, it’s about a lot of things. And that just—that part of the hook about rivers of my father carry me home, I really, really can feel the sentiment around that, right now.
morgan
My pick would be from 1991, and an album called Life of a Kid in the Ghetto. [Laughs.]
oliver
Ed OG & Da Bulldogs!
morgan
That’s right, baby! The song is “Be a Father to Your Child”. And I’ve been fooling around in early ’90s hip-hop lately. The pandemic has done a lot to what I listen to. And for the most part, I can only listen to instrumentals. When I’m not listening to that, I’ve been deep into early ’90s hip-hop. And I love Roy Ayers, and so you’ve got the marriage of both, the ill sample of “Searchin’” in “Be a Father to Your Child”—I love the message here, and I love that he’s taking a stand that to me is very supportive of mothers. I remember when my brother brought this song home, and I remember the video, and bumping it. So.
music
“Be a Father to Your Child” from the album Life of a Kid in the Ghetto by Ed OG & Da Bulldogs. Half of the fathers with sons and daughters don't even wanna take 'em But it's so easy for them to make 'em It's true, if it weren't for you then the child wouldn't exist After a skeeze, there's responsibilities so don't resist Be a father to your child [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
And I remember, I think I had the—my brother had the cassingle. And shoutout out to cassingles.
oliver
Shoutout to cassingles, yeah.
morgan
Shoutout to cassingles. So, that got bumped over and over and over again. Although, it takes some work with cassingles, ‘cause you gotta do all that rewinding and stuff. But this is one of my favorite songs from the early ’90s.
oliver
And shoutout to the remix of this song, which uses a different part of the same Roy Ayers songs. They really got double mileage out of—one Roy Ayers sample yields two different tracks, which I always thought was a very kind of clever maximizing—very efficient, like I said, use of a sample. [Morgan agrees.]
music
“Be a Father to Your Child (Remix)” from the album Life of a Kid in the Ghetto by Ed OG & Da Bulldogs. You see, I hate when a brother makes a child and then denies it Thinking that money is the answer, so he buys it A whole bunch of gifts and a lot of presents It's not the presents, it's your presence and the essence Of being there and showing the baby that you care Stop sitting like a chair and having your baby wondering where you are Or who you are [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
First of all, we wanna wish everyone a happy Father’s Day. Hope you enjoy this day and your time with your family. [Theme music fades in.] We also wanna shout out Christian for suggesting this idea, to spend a little time on fathers and dads. So, shoutout to Christian.
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under the Stairs. [Music continues under the dialogue.]
oliver
You’ve been listening to Heat Rocks with me, Oliver Wang, and Morgan Rhodes.
morgan
Our theme music is “Crown Ones” by Thes One of People Under the Stairs. Shout out to Thes for the hookup.
oliver
Heat Rocks is produced by myself and Morgan, alongside Christian Dueñas, who also edits, engineers, and does the booking for our shows.
morgan
Our senior producer is Laura Swisher, and our executive producer is Jesse Thorn.
oliver
We are part of the Maximum Fun family, taping every week live in their studios in the Westlake neighborhood of Los Angeles. [Music fades out.]
sound effect
Cheerful ukulele chord.
speaker 2
Comedy and culture.
speaker 3
Artist owned—
speaker 4
—audience supported.
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under the Stairs. [Music continues under the dialogue, then fades out.]
oliver wang
Hello! I’m Oliver Wang.
morgan rhodes
And I’m Morgan Rhodes. You’re listening to Heat Rocks. This is a special episode brainstormed by our producer, Christian, who suggested that with Father’s Day coming up, maybe we’d want to do a father-daughter/son music special.
oliver
We all like the idea. Though I gotta say, none of us had this idea around Mother’s Day, and maybe it’s because mother and daughter/son music isn’t nearly as intuitive as a theme, because of—I don’t know, patriarchy, perhaps. [Morgan chuckles.] Morgan, should we make this up by doing a Mother’s Day special next year?
morgan
I think so, ‘cause that’s so shady that we left mothers out. [Oliver laughs.] We should definitely, definitely do that.
oliver
Well, for this Father’s Day special, we each picked three songs, and two are songs that feature some kind of father/child combo in some fashion or other, and the third song is gonna be personal to us—with me talking about music and my relationship to my 15-year-old daughter, and Morgan talking about music and her dad. But let’s start it here, though. And to circle back to my earlier observation: Morgan, why do you think it is that father/child music does seem kind of prominent in pop music?
morgan
You know, this is a theory that would probably bear some—you know—more research and investigation, but I think it’s because the assumption is that there’s a lack of attention paid to fathers, and that there needs to be—that there needed to be songs to make up for that. I think it’s the assumption that we all love our mothers. We’re gonna wax on and on and on. And people need to shoutout the fathers. Fathers don’t get enough attention, so when Father’s Day comes, make a big deal about it, because Mother’s Day gonna—mothers are gonna get better gifts. The card—[laughs] the range of cards is gonna be better. And dads are gonna get socks. And so, I think this is a pushback against sonic sock giving. And so, that’s why they have shown up in pop music—to make up for when we miss them.
oliver
Well, I thought about this a bit more systemically. I suppose this is due to my sociological background here. But I’m wondering if families that have a famous musical father are more likely to raise kids who themselves go into the music business, as opposed to families that have a famous musical mother. And I wasn’t really joking when I said that I think patriarchy plays some role here, because I think—and this maybe speaks partly to your point, Morgan—I think society tends to honor mothers on a personal level, but when it comes to professional role models, we put up fathers as being, “Oh, well you should follow in the line of what your dad did.” So, if your dad was a musician or a singer or what have you, then that becomes a valid line of work. But because, historically, we don’t value women’s work, and therefore mother’s work, even if you have someone who is the level of—let’s say—a Madonna or a Beyonce or what have you, we don’t necessarily make this instant expectation that their kids would follow in those footsteps.
morgan
I agree with that. I mean, I’ve always heard, growing up, that the mother is the psychological parent. So, when there’s an injury, Dad buys the Band-Aids, but the mother heals the wounds. And so, I think we have relegated them to a certain—to your point—psychological place. And when I think about kids following in the business, I do think of—you know, bands like The Clark Sisters, Karen Clark—you know, her daughter, Kiki Sheard. And especially in gospel music, there’s so much legacy of that. But I think you make a valid point.
oliver
Well, let’s get deeper into those musical examples. And Morgan, you wanna go first with what song came to your mind, in terms of being a father/child combo?
morgan
I went with “Father’s Child”—a song by Michael Kiwanuka, who is a British artist of Ugandan descent. And from his second album, which was a tastemaker’s favorite. It’s called Love & Hate. And for those not aware of him, he’s been making a splash in the industry for almost a decade. I came to know him in late 2010, early ’11. He’s got an old soul. You know, he’s frequently compared to the soul crooners—Marvin Gay, Bill Withers. We, in the business—music supervisors—when someone gets synced a lot, we call them synchronized. [Oliver chuckles.] And so, he is synchronized, because he’s continually synced. I, myself, placed his song, “Love & Hate” on two different shows. On Queen Sugar and on Dear White People.
music
“Love & Hate” from the album Love & Hate by Michael Kiwanuka. Calling for my demons now to let me go I need something, give me something wonderful [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
Our former guest, Thomas Golubic, who came on to talk about De La Soul, placed his song “Rest” on Grace & Frankie.
music
“Rest” from the album Home Again by Michael Kiwanuka. Rest your hands Leave them tender [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
And his “Cold Little Heart” is the actual theme song to Big Little Lies.
music
“Cold Little Heart” from the album Love & Hate by Michael Kiwanuka. [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
So, his pen gets money. Okay? Trust and believe. If I had to describe the album in a word, it would be deep. And for, you know, more eloquent and compelling adjectives, refer to the review in Pitchfork which calls it a, quote, “Sustained, stylized plunge into despair. Plaints of isolation, doubt, lovelessness, racial injustice, longing, hopelessness, and a certain resolve despite it all often set to mournful, minor chords.” End quote. Uh, yeah. So, get into that. The song “Father’s Child” is also a bit mournful and introspective. And I love it. The surprising thing for somebody as churchy as I am—it took me a few listens for me to realize that he was actually talking about God.
music
“Father’s Child” from the album Love & Hate by Michael Kiwanuka. I've been searching for miles and miles Looking for someone to walk with me Walk with me (walk, walk) Walk with me (walk, walk) [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
Morgan, not to go off on a tangent here, but what helps an artist become synchronized? What separates the artist who’s well-synchronized opposed to the one that’s not?
morgan
That’s a good question. You know, I’ve talked about this with artists, and it really has to do with not just the quality of songs, but the ability of songs to be placed in different—you know, different narrative situations, I’ll say. And his songs are very emotional. The way they’re produced, they’re instantly cinematic. And he’s got some hardcore themes. I mean, Black man in a White world. I mean, everything that I described from the Pitchfork review is all of his songs in a nutshell. And they just lend themself to being synced. I mean, he’s—like I said, if you go to his page, he’s had some big syncs. And the fact that “Love & Hate” has been synced on not just the two shows that I named, but a couple of other shows tells you a lot about him. And I think the difference is: one, you need tastemakers to get behind you. I think that’s one. And I think you need to come to the attention of music supervisors pretty quickly.
music
“Father’s Child” from the album Love & Hate by Michael Kiwanuka. Walk with me, show me pure affection Walk with me, show me the right direction I am my father's child, even though I walk No more, no more I am more than things you won't forgive Walk with me I am more than things you won't forgive Walk with me So walk with me [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
Well, for my first example, I did go with a literal in this case duet between father and, in this case, daughter—though, I think it’s a bit more obscure than what others might assume. And part of this comes about from the fact that I’m currently working on liner notes for a reissue of Donny Hathaway’s debut album, which amazingly turns 50 years old this year: Everything is Everything. And of course, the best-known song—I think—off of that LP is “The Ghetto”. And if you listen closely—and this comes around close to the five-minute mark—you can hear the cries of Donny and Eulaulah Hathaway’s firstborn daughter, Lalah Hathaway, on here.
music
“The Ghetto” from the album Everything is Everything by Donny Hathaway. The ghetto Oh, yeah The ghetto, the ghetto The ghetto [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
I spoke with drummer Rick Powell, who produced the album and also wrote the original liner notes for it. And he says that this was his idea to bring Lalah into the studio and get her onto the microphone. And elsewhere, Eulaulah, her mother, had suggested that this might have been the first time a baby was brought onto a record like this. I wanna say that claim might be a little bit unlikely, only because by 1970 I just feel like there would’ve been 70+ years of recorded music, and probably somebody thought to bring a baby on. But nonetheless, I do like the idea that this being the first time. And certainly, you know, as Lalah Hathaway has obviously gone on to her own, very successful solo career, it’s nice to think of this as being her father’s first time recording a studio LP that she was featured on there, even if it’s a very small credit I think. And along similar lines, I think it’s also notable that Lalah does sing her father’s songs in concerts, but as far as I know she’s never recorded a studio version of one of his songs on one of her own recordings. She has—I think the closest that it’s come, she has however been a featured guest on a Donny Hathaway cover. And specifically, I’m thinking of the 2002 cover of “Someday We’ll All Be Free”, which was featured on Take 6’s album, Beautiful World.
music
“Someday We’ll All Be Free” from the album Beautiful World by Take 6. Keep your stride Never mind your fears Brighter days will soon be here Take it from me someday, we'll all be free [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
I definitely respect Lalah’s decision to wanna make her own recordings her own, which makes sense when you are the scion of a famous parent. But that said, I mean Donny’s compositions are so wonderful. Like, I could imagine Lalah doing a cover of, let’s say, “Thank You Master” that would just absolutely slay. And maybe she has done it in concert, but it’s not something that you’re gonna find on one of her studio LPs.
morgan
Well, she did cover his “A Song for You” at the festival—the jazz festival in Singapore a couple of years ago. It’s called Sing Jazz. It’s glorious, because she’s got, you know, so much of his voice, so much of the timbre of his voice, the quality of his voice you hear in her voice. She’s got an incredible voice that she does amazing things for. And I thought this was a really beautiful version.
music
“A Song For You” performed live by Lalah Hathaway. I know your image of me Is what I hoped to be I treated you unkindly But darling, can't you see? [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue.]
oliver
We will be back with more of our Father’s Day Special after a brief word from some of our sibling Max Fun podcasts. Keep it locked.
music
[Volume increases.] Baby, can't you see through me? 'Cause we're alone now And I'm singing this song to you [Song fades out.]
promo
Music: Cheerful banjo music plays in the background. Biz Ellis: Hi! I’m Biz. Theresa Thorn: And I’m Theresa. Biz: And we host One Bad Mother, a comedy podcast about parenting. Theresa: Whether you are a parent or just know kids exist in the world, join us each week as we honestly share what it’s like to be a parent. Biz: These are really hard questions! Theresa: They are really hard questions! Biz: [Voice getting louder and more agitated] I don’t have any answers for that! Theresa: I don’t either! Biz: [Yelling] Sack of garbage! Theresa: I know! Biz: [Yelling in frustration] Ahhhh! Ughhh! [Laughs wildly.] Ahhhh! The end of the show will just be five minutes of Biz— [Theresa giggles.] Biz: —and Theresa crying and screaming until the outro is played. So, join us each week as we judge less, laugh more, and remind you that you are doing a great job. Theresa: Find us on MaximumFun.org, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts!
promo
Music: Straightforward, thump-y electric bass guitar beat with light drums. Jackie Kashian: Hi, I’m Jackie Kashian. Laurie Kilmartin: Hi, I’m Laurie Kilmartin. Jackie: Aaand we have a podcast called, “The Jackie and Laurie Show.” Who are you, Laurie Kilmartin? Laurie: Oh, my God. So much pressure. Uh, let’s see, I’m a stand up. I’ve been doing stand-up since 1987. Uh, I’m a writer for Conan, I’ve written a couple books, have a couple CD’s out, have a special out. Who are you, Jackie? Jackie: Well, I too am a stand-up comic, since 1984. And, uh, I do the road like a maniac and, uh, don’t have a cool writing job, but I have four albums out. Working on a new album. We talk about stand-up. We talk about, uh, all the different parts of stand-up comedy. So, that’s The Jackie and Laurie Show, and you should subscribe on Maximum Fun if you want to hear that. Laurie: [Chuckles] And I would encourage you not to. [Jackie laughs.] [Music fades out.]
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under the Stairs.
morgan
And we are back on Heat Rocks, talking songs about fathers and their children. Oliver, what you got next?
oliver
I’ve talked about Rufus Wainwright, the Canadian singer-songwriter, on the show on numerous occasions. And I’ve been a fan of his songs for about 20 years, now. And in discovering him, it’s how I learned about both of his parents—both of whom are or I guess were legends in the Canadian folk music scene. His late mother was Kate McGarrigle of the McGarrigle Sisters. And his father is Loudon Wainwright III, who is still alive and still recording. And I discovered this in prep for today that one of Loudon’s earliest mentions of his song came on Loudon Wainwright III’s 1975 LP, Unrequited, with the song that’s entitled “Rufus is a Tit Man”, which is all about breastfeeding.
music
“Rufus is a Tit Man” from the album Unrequited by Loudon Wainwright III. Rufus is a tit man Sucking on his mamma's gland Sucking on the nipple It's a sweeter than the ripple wine. Yes, its sweeter than the wine. You can tell by the way the boy burps that it's gotta taste fine. [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
My mother’s gonna hear this and be like, “I thought you guys were staying spiritual on there?” But—
oliver
[Laughs.] He—Loudon is being pro-breastfeeding in a time before the kind of breastfeeding wars broke out in the ’90s and ’00s. So, he was a bit ahead of his time, albeit in a very crass way, I suppose.
morgan
And that’s what I’m gonna say to my mother. [Oliver laughs.] I’m gonna appeal to the artistic part of this song. This is my first time hearing that, actually. So.
oliver
It’s my first time, too. And it’s not the direction I thought it would’ve gone, except that I—until you remember that in 1975, Rufus would’ve been a baby, so it would’ve been very inappropriate to have been describing him as a tit man in any other context than perhaps breastfeeding. [Morgan agrees.] Yeah. In any case, I know the two men have had—I think they had a more difficult relationship when Rufus was a child. His parents divorced when he was young. But as adults, they seem to have reconciled. And they do frequently sing backup for one another on each other’s albums. But I was trying to find an example where the two of them sung on the same song as a duet, and the one example that I came across came out in 2012, on Loudon’s album Older Than My Old Man Now. Which is notable, because the title refers to his relationship to his own father, presumably, Loudon Wainwright II. And this is him and Rufus singing on the song together, called “The Days That We Die”.
music
“The Days That We Die” from the album Older Than My Old Man Now by Loudon Wainwright III. And I have to say, that the days that we die aren't that far away You'll never change neither will I We'll stay the same till the days that we die [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
One of the things I like about hearing the two of them together is that if you look at—listen to their body of work, there are certainly some places where they cross over, but for the most part I think they have very distinct musical and artistic identities. And vocally, too, you just would never confuse one with the other. And so, hearing them sing together, it’s not like you’re getting a mirrored effect. You’re really getting these two distinct personalities who are I think really great and accomplished artists in their own, individual rights who also happen to be related to one another. Now, obviously I’m sure that’s not [chuckles] coincidental. In other words, I don’t know if Rufus would’ve gotten to where he was if he didn’t grow up as the son of both Kate and of Loudon, but nonetheless, I like hearing them duetting together. Because it is so clear that they have—they come to these songs from their own experiences where some of it is shared, but a lot of it is kind of unique unto themselves. [Morgan agrees.]
music
“The Days That We Die” from the album Older Than My Old Man Now by Loudon Wainwright III. They stay the same, people like us, Folks wanna win when they can choose, But more important than that, folks don't wanna lose [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
Morgan, what’s your next choice?
morgan
Babyface and the title track to his album from 1996, “The Day”.
music
“The Day (That You Gave Me a Son)” from the album The Day by Babyface. And I felt blessings straight from God The day that you gave me a son [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
This one’s really beautiful, because it’s celebrating the day that he found out that he was having a son. It’s really beautiful and poignant in talking about how he cried all day and how he told everyone about it. I remember hearing the song on the album, but I also saw him perform it on Oprah—on an episode of Oprah. It was he and his wife. And he sang—you know, everyone was gushing and emotional about it. But I love that, because I’m not aware of that many songs where fathers talk about their child being born or that moment besides, you know, obviously Stevie Wonder’s “Isn’t She Lovely”, where you do hear the baby cry in the background, and he talks about—you know—his love for his baby.
oliver
Yeah. I’m wondering—his son would probably be somewhere in the ballpark of about 25 or 26 years old now, given how old this song is.
morgan
The first one, yeah.
oliver
Yeah! Has any of his kids followed in his footsteps into the music business, as far as you know?
morgan
I saw—I think on Instagram—that his son was interning with his ex-wife, who I think was a VP at Yab Yum Records back in the day and might still be in the music industry. But it would be interesting to find out if either one of his sons becomes a singer. So, that—no pressure. You just—you know, you’re just the child of Babyface. [Oliver laughs and agrees.] Or a songwriter. But god, you know, what a lineage. I mean, he is one of the greatest and most prolific songwriters of all time. And so, this song’s just—you know, an example of that.
music
“The Day (You Gave Me a Son)” from the album The Day by Babyface. I've never known, I can't remember It's like a song, I've never heard I've never sung, but know the words [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
Well, that was a very personal song, of course, by Babyface, talking about the birth of his son. And we wanted to end our segment here by getting real personal ourselves. And Morgan, certainly you’ve spoken frequently on the show about the role that music has played in your own relationship with your dad.
morgan
Yeah, and it should come as no surprise to our listeners that I chose Earth, Wind & Fire again.
oliver
Yuuup. Yep-yup.
morgan
There’s only like 640,000 Earth, Wind & Fire albums, but the 1979 album, I Am, is the one that I chose. And this is the album that “Boogie Wonderland” and “After the Love is Gone” are on. It was hard to pick an album, and it was hard to pick a song, because so many of them are connected to my father and I. And why I talk about Earth, Wind & Fire and the relationship it has with me and father so often is I credit that band and those songs for teaching me how to listen to music and teaching me—you know—what I think is music etiquette—especially when you’re in a car with someone or in a space with someone for whom a band is playing that they’re very attached to themselves—how to be respectful of that space, of sonic space. And also, it was my first experience of emotion connected with music—songs that made me cry, watching my father be joyful. “You and I” is the song that I picked, and it’s a love song. But it’s so sweet, and it just reminds me—every time I listen to Earth, Wind & Fire, I see my dad’s face. And luckily, he’s still with us, but I see his face and I recapture those moments of a very cool dude that loved music and was—you know—a stereo-fi, great sound systems in the car and the house. And I just thank him for helping me to listen to music.
music
“You & I” from the album RECORD by Earth, Wind & Fire. You and I living together You and I grooving forever [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
I just wanna say also that he’s part of the reason that so often I listen to music with my eyes closed. And not just personally, at home, when I’m listening to music, but when I’m preparing music or about to pitch music, because I’m—because of him and my relationship with him and music, in terms of my work, I’m more interested in how it feels than how it sounds. And I’m able to connect with how it feels when I listen to music with my eyes closed.
oliver
I’m curious, have you ever had a conversation with him about how he discovered Earth, Wind & Fire and what it is about the band that he loved so much about them?
morgan
You know, I haven’t. And that’s a great idea. I think maybe we—you know, we can sit down and maybe if we do another Father’s Day series, maybe I sit down and have a conversation with him about that. And maybe you sit down with your baby, and you talk about—you know—you guy’s relationship with music. I think that’s a great idea for an upcoming series. ‘Cause I am curious to know, you know, why them. He listened to a lot of stuff, and he’s got—he’s like music factoid summer camp. But it’s this—it’s Earth, Wind & Fire, that’s it for him. And I think it would be interesting to find out why they are it for him.
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under the Stairs.
morgan’s dad
Earth, Wind & Fire. One of the greatest bands ever. They’re innovative, precise, tight musicians—outstanding musicians—and feel-good music. I first heard the group in 1975 while I was in England. And that was the first time I purchased an Earth, Wind & Fire album. That’s the Way of the World. After I got back to the States, I continued to listen to that group and buy more of their albums. The music, as I said, was outstanding. The songs were uplifting, feel-good. Everybody can relate to that music. And here again, they were popular. I saw them first in Atlanta. The first show was mesmerizing. A lot of special effects, but what was more apparent was the fact that they were outstanding musicians, their music was good, and they was a tight group. That’s the Way of the World is still one of my favorite albums, and the title song, “That’s the Way of the World”, is one of my favorite tunes! That’s one of the songs that I would play at my funeral.
music
“That’s the Way of the World” from the album That’s the Way of the World by Earth, Wind & Fire. That's the way (that's the way) Of the world (of the world) Plant your flower (gonna plant your flower) And you grow a pearl Child is born with a heart of gold [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue.]
morgan’s dad
They’re impressive. Here again, there’s no greater group than Earth, Wind & Fire. [Song fades out.]
oliver
I don’t have really strong connections for myself around music and my father, who’s still around. He did listen to some pop music, growing up that I recall. So, something—you know, Simon & Garfunkel, maybe the Beatles. But generally speaking, we just never connected over music at all. And so, I oftentimes describe my own musical development as being very much separate from my parents. And I think especially growing up as the child of immigrants and Asian immigrants in particular, there just was not necessarily gonna be a lot of—I think—easy cases where you would see that kind of crossover happening, at least in my experience. But of course, I think this has been very different for myself and my daughter, Ella, who is now 15 years old. Because from early on, I was introducing her both in direct and indirect ways to all kinds of music, especially because I would drive her around and she would hear whatever I was listening to in the car. One of my earliest musical examples that comes to mind is a 1960 soul single by The New Holiday’s, called “Maybe So, Maybe No”. And I played it in the car so much—this was probably in the mid/late 2000s when Ella was, I don’t know, maybe four or five years old at most. And it was one of the first non-children’s songs that I recall her having memorized the lyrics to. Because, again, she heard me play it so often.
music
“Maybe So, Maybe No” by The New Holiday. Could it be that your love was meant for me? Maybe so, maybe no Could it be that your love was meant for me? Maybe so, maybe no [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
In fact, I have an example of her singing that hook that we taped when she was that age.
clip
Oliver: Hey, Ella, what song did you wanna hear in the car? Was it “Old McDonald”? [Ella babbles softly.] Oliver: What song is it? Ella: [Singing.] Maybe so, maybe no. Maybe so, maybe noooo. Oliver: Can you singing it for me? Ella: [Singing louder.] Maybe sooo! Maybeee noooo! Maybe so! Maybe nooo. Maybe sooo.
oliver
As she’s gotten older, however, the tables have turned. And I would say that these days, I am just as likely to learn about new music and new artists through her as opposed to the other way around. And case in point, I’m not sure if I would’ve naturally or organically come across listening to LA’s own Doja Cat if it wasn’t for Ella going around singing the hook to “Say So” all the time.
music
“Say So” from the album Hot Pink by Doja Cat. Day to night to morning, keep with me in the moment I'd let you had I known it, why don't you say so? Didn't even notice, no punches left to roll with [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
The two of us share a Spotify account, which gives each of us a window into what the other person listens to. And partly through that, I’ve been asking her to help me with programming different guest radio sets that I’ve been asked to do during lockdown. It’s just been an activity that occupies both of our time while we’re stuck at home together nonstop and gives us something to bond over. And it's through her playlist, which I let her pick the songs and she does most of the sequencing for them as well. It has really turned me on to a bunch of new artists, including this Welsh singer-songwriter, Cate le Bon. Who I’m almost positive there’s no way I would’ve discovered Cate le Bon if not through Ella. And now, I’m a very big fan of this 2013 song that le Bon recorded, called “Are You With me Now”, which reminds me a little bit of Karen Dalton’s work—which we had obviously talked about on this show a couple of months back.
music
“Are You With Me Now?” from the album Mug Museum by Cate le Bon. I see no reason Are you with me now Are Are you with me now [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
When you’re in the car with her—you know, when you guys are rolling out—do you let her also choose the music for the ride? Or do you shuffle? Or how do you do it?
oliver
You know, it’s funny you should ask that. Because it’s only been in the last I’d say maybe six months or so where she will deliberately ask as we get into the car—she basically will say, “Can I DJ?” Which means that she wants control over what we listen to, and she wants to pair her phone with the Bluetooth car system and play what she wants to play. And I would say, I don’t know, 60/40—or, I should say, let me flip that—40/60, I’ll say yes. But I’m so used to being in control of what’s in the car, because I drive all the time in my family. And the unofficial rule is whoever’s driving gets to choose what we listen—gets to choose the soundtrack. And so, I can sometimes, even though I like hearing what she listens to, I can get a little bit impatient. And since I have controls on the steering wheel, if there’s a song that comes on her playlist that I’m just not feeling, I’ll just—without asking permission—just skip over it. And she’ll get very indignant at me, in terms of why. It’ll be very interesting as—you know, she’s gonna qualify for her learners permit and her drivers license before I know it. And as she begins driving, no doubt she will assert the “Hey, I’m driving. I get to control the music,” rule. And then maybe I’m just gonna have to sit there and just deal with it, in terms of—or I’ll have to ask permission and say, “Wait, I wanna DJ today.” Even if she’s driving. So, we’ll see how that plays out as she gets older.
morgan
I asked because I went to visit my dad in Memphis—I went for a family reunion. My father’s from Memphis. And so, he did a lot of the driving. And I was like, “Is this the time that I suggest some tunes?” But I didn’t. And I think I just— [They laugh.] You know, I thought, “Let me let him bump his hits.” But more than anything else, I wanted to hear him talk. Because whenever he puts on a song, he talks about it. You know. And we’re riding through Memphis. And so, I wanted to hear all that he had to say. And he was playing a lot of blues, which surprised me ‘cause I expected to hear either Earth, Wind & Fire or fusion. But he played a lot of blues. And so, what I wish for you and for Ella is that—you know—when she grows up, that she remembers all these musical moments that you shared, just like I remember all of these with my dad.
oliver
Yeah. No, I certainly hope so as well. In place of our usual “you should next check out” recommendations, since we weren’t talking about a single album on today’s episode, we wanted to use that opportunity to throw out at least one more piece of music for folks to peep along today’s themes, in whatever fashion. And the song that I ended up going with is a bit of a stretch, because it’s really not a song about parenthood at all even though it has the word “fathers” in it. But it is off of something that I’ve been listening to a lot in recent weeks for perhaps kind of obvious reasons, which is Gil Scott Heron and Brian Jackson’s incredible collaboration, On Winter in America. Which came out I think in 1972 or ’73. And so much of that album—right now, especially—just resonates, in terms of their commentary on what was then Nixonian, Watergate-era America, and there’s sadly a lot of resonance you can find with our current moment, now. And the song that I was drawn to for this particular bonus cut is the song “Rivers of My Fathers”, from that LP.
music
“Rivers of My Fathers” from the album Winter in America by Gil Scott Heron and Brian Jackson. Let me lay down by a stream And let me be miles from everything Rivers of my Fathers [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
As I said, it’s not a song about parenthood. It’s really about—I mean, it’s about a lot of things. And that just—that part of the hook about rivers of my father carry me home, I really, really can feel the sentiment around that, right now.
morgan
My pick would be from 1991, and an album called Life of a Kid in the Ghetto. [Laughs.]
oliver
Ed OG & Da Bulldogs!
morgan
That’s right, baby! The song is “Be a Father to Your Child”. And I’ve been fooling around in early ’90s hip-hop lately. The pandemic has done a lot to what I listen to. And for the most part, I can only listen to instrumentals. When I’m not listening to that, I’ve been deep into early ’90s hip-hop. And I love Roy Ayers, and so you’ve got the marriage of both, the ill sample of “Searchin’” in “Be a Father to Your Child”—I love the message here, and I love that he’s taking a stand that to me is very supportive of mothers. I remember when my brother brought this song home, and I remember the video, and bumping it. So.
music
“Be a Father to Your Child” from the album Life of a Kid in the Ghetto by Ed OG & Da Bulldogs. Half of the fathers with sons and daughters don't even wanna take 'em But it's so easy for them to make 'em It's true, if it weren't for you then the child wouldn't exist After a skeeze, there's responsibilities so don't resist Be a father to your child [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
And I remember, I think I had the—my brother had the cassingle. And shoutout out to cassingles.
oliver
Shoutout to cassingles, yeah.
morgan
Shoutout to cassingles. So, that got bumped over and over and over again. Although, it takes some work with cassingles, ‘cause you gotta do all that rewinding and stuff. But this is one of my favorite songs from the early ’90s.
oliver
And shoutout to the remix of this song, which uses a different part of the same Roy Ayers songs. They really got double mileage out of—one Roy Ayers sample yields two different tracks, which I always thought was a very kind of clever maximizing—very efficient, like I said, use of a sample. [Morgan agrees.]
music
“Be a Father to Your Child (Remix)” from the album Life of a Kid in the Ghetto by Ed OG & Da Bulldogs. You see, I hate when a brother makes a child and then denies it Thinking that money is the answer, so he buys it A whole bunch of gifts and a lot of presents It's not the presents, it's your presence and the essence Of being there and showing the baby that you care Stop sitting like a chair and having your baby wondering where you are Or who you are [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
First of all, we wanna wish everyone a happy Father’s Day. Hope you enjoy this day and your time with your family. [Theme music fades in.] We also wanna shout out Christian for suggesting this idea, to spend a little time on fathers and dads. So, shoutout to Christian.
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under the Stairs. [Music continues under the dialogue.]
oliver
You’ve been listening to Heat Rocks with me, Oliver Wang, and Morgan Rhodes.
morgan
Our theme music is “Crown Ones” by Thes One of People Under the Stairs. Shout out to Thes for the hookup.
oliver
Heat Rocks is produced by myself and Morgan, alongside Christian Dueñas, who also edits, engineers, and does the booking for our shows.
morgan
Our senior producer is Laura Swisher, and our executive producer is Jesse Thorn.
oliver
We are part of the Maximum Fun family, taping every week live in their studios in the Westlake neighborhood of Los Angeles. [Music fades out.]
sound effect
Cheerful ukulele chord.
speaker 2
Comedy and culture.
speaker 3
Artist owned—
speaker 4
—audience supported.
About the show
Hosted by Oliver Wang and Morgan Rhodes, every episode of Heat Rocks invites a special guest to talk about a heat rock – a hot album, a scorching record. These are in-depth conversations about the albums that shape our lives.
Our guests include musicians, writers, and scholars and though we don’t exclusively focus on any one genre, expect to hear about albums from the worlds of soul, hip-hop, funk, jazz, Latin, and more.
New episodes every Thursday on Apple Podcasts or whatever you get your podcasts.
Subscribe to our website updates for exclusive bonus content (including extra interview segments, mini-episodes, etc.)
Meanwhile, you can email us at heatrockspod@gmail.com or follow us on social media:
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