Transcript
music
“Switchblade Comb” by Mobius VanChocStraw. A jaunty, jazzy tune reminiscent of the opening theme of a movie. Music continues at a lower volume as April introduces herself and her guest, and then it fades out.
katie walsh
Hello, and welcome to Switchblade Sisters, the podcast where women get together to slice and dice our favorite action and genre films. Every week here on the podcast, we invite a new female filmmaker. A writer, director, actor, or producer, and we talk—in depth—about their favorite genre film. Maybe one that’s influenced their own work. I’m film critic Katie Walsh, and today we have playwright, screenwriter, and showrunner, Mary Laws.
mary laws
Hello!
katie
Hello, Mary, and thank you for being here.
mary
I’m so glad to be here. This is a really cool podcast. I love women talking about films and talking about genre. That’s all I ever wanna do. [Laughs.]
katie
I know, same here. So, a little bit about Mary. She is a Texas native, a screenwriter, producer, and playwright based in Los Angeles. She has a Masters in playwriting from the Yale School of Drama, and honestly a resume to die for. She co-wrote The Neon Demon with Nicholas Winding Refn and Polly Stenham. She’s also served as a writer and producer on AMC’s Preacher, and HBO’s Emmy-winning Succession. Folks, she wrote “Dundee.” Yes, that’s the episode where Kendall raps, “L to the OG.” [Both laugh.] I—honestly, I could do the whole podcast about that episode. Next time, next time. She’s also the creator, showrunner, and executive producer of Monsterland, an 8-part anthology series premiering on Hulu on October second, based on the book North American Lake Monsters: Stories by Nathan Ballingrud. I’ve seen a couple episodes, and it’s so good. I am obsessed with the writers and directors that you got to do this series. I mean, it—it is like—it is so good. Uh, today, Mary has chosen to discuss the 1965 psychological horror film Repulsion, directed by Roman Polanski and starring Catherine Deneuve. So, Mary, why did you choose, uh, Repulsion?
mary
Well, Repulsion is one of those movies that, ever since I’ve seen it, I’ve never been able to shake, and I think about it like, almost every time I’m starting a new project. And I—it’s not really—that’s not really an exaggeration. I think about it every time I’m starting a new project. Because, to me, Repulsion is a great reminder that, um, you can bend and break the rules of screenwriting to create something extraordinary that is surprising, um, that will take people on a journey that they didn’t know they were gonna go on. Repulsion, like—the thing I—one of the things I love the most about Repulsion is the structure. And like, I remember, because I come from, like, a playwriting world, you know, in play writing. I studied under Paula Vogel, for any theatre nerds out there, who, uh love playwrights. Like she’s—she’s one of like, the finest, in my opinion. Both a playwright and a teacher, and she—she sort of imbues us with this idea that one of your primary tools as a playwright is structure. And that you, you know, what’s the, like, expression? I think it’s an Edward Albee quote. That con—content and form should fuck, or something like that? [Both laugh.] Um, and, like, I feel like that about, like, content and structure, you know? Content and structure, like—your structure should, um, uh—speak to what the story is that you’re trying to tell, right? And, so, you know, as a playwright, that was—it was a very, uh, freeing and just sort of like, open-ended idea that you can tell any kind of story that you feel like you need to tell, in any kind of structure that makes that story the strongest, right? And—and when you—when I sort of transferred as—from a playwright to, um, uh—to a f—a screenwriter, I was like, “Wait, what? There are, like, rules about structure?” Like, that doesn’t make any sense to me. It really doesn’t make any sense to me, and it still doesn’t. Um, that, you know, you should—like, what’s that—what’s that book, uh, Save the Cat or something like—
katie
Save the Cat, yes, the classic.
mary
Yeah, like—I mean—I get—I know that learning about what has worked before is definitely important, but to say that there is one way to do things, that every film should have a three-act struc—structure, is like, maddening to me. Because, like, why—that’s—that's just like saying, you know, every—every human being should have brown hair. It’s just like, “No, why?” I don’t understand that. That doesn’t make any sense. No, it—but that is—it’s just so maddening to me, because stories are so different, and they—they’re so personal, and, like— So, anyway, what I love about Repulsion is—is that it takes you on this almost two-act structured journey, right? There’s—Carol, the protagonist, and like, kind of the first half of the film is her out in the world, and that—and you know something is going on with her, and it’s really hard to identify. She has a—a strange relationship with men, but also in her sort of private, personal moments, she seems to be unravelling. But you see her like, walking—walking the streets, and having dinner with—with the—I can’t remember his name but the guy who was trying to, like, court her. And—and—but then, the second half of the film is all internal. [Katie affirms.] It is all in that apartment, and it is her losing her mind, losing her grasp on reality. And so—and so it really puts—the whole movie puts you inside of her head, but it’s because of that two-act structure. It is a hundred percent because of that two-act structure, um, and the way that it just keeps getting more and more and more and more internal. And I was just like, “This is fucking brilliant.” And—and—I—I think about it every time I’m about to start a new project, because I—I won’t do it. I won’t subscribe to the idea that like, television is supposed to have a relentlessly forward-moving plot, or films are supposed to have three-act structure, or, “Where’s the Dark Night of the soul?” I’m just like, fuck that. That’s not original, and that’s not interesting to me.
katie
Well, I love that sort of um, I want to say anarchic attitude— [Mary laughs.] —towards, uh, traditional structure. Because I do think that you know, there is something to the kinds of genre expectations that we might have in a film or television show, and playing with that. But then I also think, especially in a film like Repulsion, just going on this journey and not knowing where it’s going to end is—is something so fresh and unique and exciting. And I think that’s what makes it feel—like, to me, I watched this film last night, and I was like, “This feels modern.” It feels totally fresh. [Mary affirms.] And um, I think that’s really remarkable that it can stand the test of time. I mean, it’s over fifty years old at this point in time. Um, but I am going to—maybe this is a good time to do a little plot synopsis.
mary
Great.
katie
And, you know, like we always say here on Switchblade Sisters, if you haven’t seen Repulsion, today’s episode will contain spoilers, but that shouldn’t stop you from listening before you watch. Like we say, it’s not what happens, but how it happens that makes a movie worth watching. Still, if you would like to pause this episode and watch it, now’s your chance.
mary
[Chuckling] I think I may have already—I may have already given a few spoilers though, so maybe— [A small dog barks sharply in the background.] —you’ve missed your chance. [Laughs.]
music
Score by Chico Hamilton
katie
No, nothing—nothing too—nothing too um, extreme. Repulsion is a 1965 psychological horror film directed by Roman Polanski, co-written by Polanski and Gérard Brach. It is Polanski’s second feature film, and his first English language film, shot in London, and it’s the first installment of his quote-unquote “Apartment Trilogy”, which also includes Rosemary’s Baby and The Tenant. All three are horror films which primarily take place in apartments, as you may have guessed. Catherine Deneuve stars as Carol, a young Belgian manicurist who works in a beauty salon, and lives with her older sister, Helen, played by Yvonne Furneaux. She’s quite shy and reserved, and also quite beautiful, and she’s constantly pestered by men for her attention.
clip
Workman: Hello, darling. How about the other, then?
katie
Especially the persistent Colin.
clip
Colin: Just a minute. What about tonight? Carol: Sorry, I’m busy tonight. Colin: You really make me feel wanted. Who’s the lucky boy? Carol: I’m having dinner with my sister. Colin: She a good cook?
katie
So annoying. I hate Colin. [Laughs.] Played by Ian Hendry. She’s also quite disturbed by—
mary
He’s supposed to be like, the good guy, too.
katie
I know! I can’t stand him. [Both laugh incredulously.] She’s also quite disturbed by the affair her sister is carrying on with Michael, a married Englishman, and especially how he invades his—invades her space.
clip
Carol: Is he going to stay here every night? Helen: I really don’t think it’s any concern of yours.
katie
His razor and toothbrush are always in her cup, and she constantly has to hear their lovemaking at night. When Helen and MIchael take off for a holiday, Carol becomes more and more withdrawn, distant, and isolated. She’s sent home from work and misses three days initially. At the apartment, she wanders around, distracted by the invasiveness of Michael’s personal items, and tormented by the phone, as Colin and the landlord won’t stop calling.
clip
[Phone rings twice, and then is picked up.] Carol: Hello? Landlord: Miss Ledoux? Carol: Yes? Landlord: How much longer are you going to keep me waiting for the rent?
katie
She experiences terrifying nightmares. Oh, also there’s like, another creeper calling on the phone. [Mary affirms.] Doing some hang-ups. She experiences terrifying nightmares in which an unknown rapist attacks her in bed, and she hallucinates the walls cracking, and hands reaching out to grab her in the hallway. When Colin arrives at her door and bursts into the apartment—
clip
Colin: I’m sorry. I just had to see you, that’s all. [Sighs] Honestly, it’s been so—so miserable without you.
katie
—she bops him on the head with a candlestick, and leaves his body in the tub.
clip
[Colin grunting after getting hit in the head.]
katie
When the landlord shows up looking to collect some rent, he propositions and then attacks.
clip
[Rhythmic ringing sound plays continuously in the background.] Landlord: You look after me, and you can forget about the rent.
katie
And she stabs him to death with a straight razor, leaving the apartment strewn with the dead bodies of her would-be suitor, the landlord, and, of course, the rotten rabbit corpse, which she has left out for days. When Helen and Michael return, they come upon the gorey scene, and find a catatonic Carol under the bed, and they gently take her away. And as the film ends, the camera zooms in on a photo we’ve seen already of Carol as a child, and we don’t quite understand what it means. Very ambiguous. Um, but people have speculated that perhaps it means that she has some childhood trauma, and that is what is leading to her psychosis. The other thing that we need to discuss, obviously, is that Roman Polanski is a very bad man. [Laughs] We are not going to skirt the issue of it, and the violent sexual crimes against young girls and women which he’s been accused and convicted. Um, and, you know, this isn’t like, a—I don’t intend to sort of like, land on a right or wrong answer here. It just—how can we sort of tangle with this idea of this man who has been accused of very bad crimes, who has done bad things to young women. He has assaulted young women, and how do we sort of like, hold that at the same time as loving this movie? And the interesting thing I think about Polanski is that, I think women who are cinophiles and who are genre fans really connect with Repulsion and Rosemary’s Baby, um, and identify with it. And it’s this sort of like, brilliant—both are sort of like, brilliant depictions of what it means to be like, mentally tortured and gaslit. And, you know, so how do we, like—how do those things exist at the same time, and how can we kind of work our way through it? So, I, you know, there’s no right or wrong answer here. It’s just—just to bring it up and put it on the table.
mary
Well, I mean, it’s something. You know, my girlfriend and I discuss this all the time, because she’s also—like, Roman Polanski is like a huge filmmaker for me that I sort of return to all the time, and uh, Woody Allen is a huge filmmaker for her that she is like, “This is the reason—” She’s also a comedian and screenwriter. And um, she was like, “This is the reason that I got into comedy, because I loved his films so much.” Um, she won’t watch any. She doesn’t watch Woody Allen anymore, and that’s sort of been her decision. I [Through laughter] watch Roman Polanski all the time, um, because I—uh—[She breaks off, sighing.] Because they’re formative for me. They're really important to me. Um, and so for whatever reason, I have been able to separate art from the artist. I’m not terribly interested in seeing any of anything he makes now. I’m not terribly interested in watching any of his new work, or celebrating him necessarily. I don’t believe that he should be given awards or lauded with uh, you know, any—any—any major awards or events by the industry itself. Um, uh, but these things have been created, and I think that it’s actually um, quite interesting for me to watch them through the lens of knowing exactly who he is and what he has done. Um, and so I don’t know. I don’t know what any answer is. But that’s—and I don’t necessarily have like, peace about any of it, but it’s certainly an ongoing discussion that—that I have, we have, my partner and I have in our household. Um, but you know, [Sighing] I can’t, like, unsee this movie.
katie
I know.
mary
Or, or un-unlearn any of the things that I learned from it, because it is truly, in my opinion, a brilliant movie. Um, and it—he also is, especially his early work is, in my opinion, it’s genius. And he—he was able to provide in the horror landscape. Like, this and Rosemary’s Baby in particular, I think, uh, he was able to give a female protagonist who was not just, you know, running around and being chased by a man with a knife. Um, he—he dug deep into female psyche. And, I don’t know, is that because he is the kind of person he is, or not? I don’t really—I don’t—I don’t have any answers, so uh, and I—uh, yeah, that’s all I really have to say about it is just that it’s—his films have become a part of me, but it certainly is something that we continue to bring up and question in our house.
katie
I think that’s a great answer, because it is, you know, it’s this idea of the ongoing discussion, and not skirting the issue. And I agree that both Repulsion and Rosemary’s Baby were very formative for me as well. And like you said, it’s like, I can’t unsee that, I can’t remove the influence that those films had on me. And I’m loathe to sort of give them up. Um, I saw Repulsion when I was maybe in my late teens, early 20s, and I was just like, “Woah, this is this revelatory film for me.” Because it was about what it’s like to be a young woman in the world— [Mary affirms.] —and the sort of terror of just being a woman on the street, and—
mary
Absolutely.
katie
Um, and then the same with Rosemary’s Baby, is like, I—I—that is—the way that he depicts gaslighting and um, mental manipulation in that, it’s like, I almost don’t want to get too far into what—what’s he thinking, you know? All I can really do is—is, you know, take what I feel from it. Anyway, I was also going to mention that in episode seven of Switchblade Sisters, April also addresses this issue really beautifully with Jessie Nickson-Lopez, who is a writer for Stranger Things. They talk about Rosemary’s Baby. So if you want to get into it more on the Polanski of it all, [Through laughter] that’s a good little sister episode.
music
“Switchblade Comb” by Mobius VanChocStraw.
katie
Um, but I think we need to take a quick break, so we will be back in just a moment. [Music fades.]
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music
“Switchblade Comb” by Mobius VanChocStraw.
katie
Welcome back to Switchblade Sisters. We are talking with showrunner, writer, playwright, producer Mary Laws about Repulsion. And we’ve already sort of addressed… [Through laughter] everything to do with Roman Polan—not everything, but we’ve gotten that out of the way.
mary
We’ve—that was real tip of the iceberg, but—
katie
Exactly. Very tip of the iceberg.
mary
I think we have some more exciting things to talk about than a, you know—
katie
Um, so—
mary
—convicted pedophile.
katie
[Chuckling] One of the things that I wanted to um, ask you is that, I feel like with Neon Demon and the episodes of Monsterland that I’ve seen, I love that—and with Repulsion as well, it’s like, the horror comes from this really grounded place of reality. And there might be supernatural things, or hallucinations, or things that are not in reality, but—but it starts from someplace real. And I just wanted to ask what your approach was to writing horror and fusing the supernatural with the realistic.
mary
Sure. I mean, that’s why I really love the horror genre, is because I feel like it, um, gives me a chance to talk about my world—my personal world and the world that I’m seeing around me—in a really visceral way. Which is how I feel it, you know what I mean? Like, I think—I think the day that I write something that’s just straight realism will be a surprise—a very big surprise to me. Because I think that I have um, I have an extreme emotional palette, and I think that I—I feel the horror of the world very deeply as a woman, as a gay person, as a person who was raised in the south, as a person who consumes the news, as a person who has, um, you know, who watches a diverse community of people around me be hurt and oppressed, especially in this like, current moment. It is—it is painful. It is joyful, and it is painful to live in the world. And I think that what the horror genre does, for me, is that it allows me to express that pain in like, the truest way that I really, actually feel it. Because when you have moments of—of fear and endangerment as a woman, those are visceral. Um, and that is really hard for me as an artist to express in a just sort of completely grounded and realistic way. I need that extra element of—of the supernatural, of the horror, of the unknown of that thing that we fear. Or that also astonishes, you know? ‘Cause I also—I feel like—well, I’ll go into that in a minute.
mary
But like, I—I think that—so I think that my combination generally in writing is of that sort of groundedness, so that you recognize the world as your own, so that I can recognize the world as my own, with some kind of otherness. Because that otherness fills in the gaps, for me, of—of uh—er, that otherness acts as like, a sort of, um, representation of like, the emotionality that I feel about things in the world. I just think that the horror genre is so exciting in that way, and um, and it’s the only thing that I have seen—you know, a play is—I come from playwriting. A play is so interesting, because you can be there and it’s all uh, you know, it’s in person. You’re breathing together with the actors, the same air. And so there are some things so palpable, the energy in the theater is so palpable. And there are lots and lots of bad plays in the world, but when you see a really, really good one, it changes your DNA. It completely alters you. And when I came to film and television, the first thing I wrote was Neon Demon with Nick Refn. Like, I—I was a little bit like, well, he is a filmmaker that I have seen give me that same kind of feeling that I have in the theater on screen. I am so obsessed with his movie Bronson, about Charlie Bronson.
katie
Yes, I love Bronson.
mary
Yes, it’s so good, and I—I’m always shocked when people have seen Drive and they haven’t seen Bronson, because to me, if—and I used to say this to him. I would always be like, “Yeah, Drive is good. [Chuckles] You know, Bronson is where it’s at, though.” Like, because it’s so—it’s so visceral, and it jumps off the screen, and it makes you, as an audience member, sweat. And for me, like, [Sighs] that is an experience that I have had in life and in the world. And for me, the horror genre is the only other—it’s the only real genre that has done that. When people can do that in other—in other kinds of genre on screen, I just like, bow down to them. But for me, I just feel like I always am returning to horror, horror, horror, because it just gives you that same—that feeling, you know?
katie
Yeah. It’s so interesting, because yes, I mean, that’s the thing about film. When you can elicit a physical reaction out of someone, whether it’s crying, or laughing, or screaming, or vomiting. I mean, I’ve never vomited from a film yet, but it does happen.
mary
Oh, I totally have. Um, when I was young, I—I threw up when I watched—was it If These Walls Could Talk, or—yeah, If These Walls Could Talk. During the knitting needle abortion scene.
katie
[Laughing] Oh my gosh.
mary
I—it totally—I was maybe too young to know what that film was about, but I watched it and I completely threw up. And I just was like—I think about that all the time too, because, not that I necessarily want to experience that all the time, but I also kind of do. Because I love any kind of art that really makes you feel, right?
katie
Oh, absolutely. [Mary affirms.] Absolutely. I watched—I rewatched Neon Demon this week, um, you know, to talk about this—to talk to you. Um, but it was a joy to rewatch, because I’m obsessed with Neon Demon, and I—it was the third time I had seen it, and I was sitting on my couch, and instead of being horrified I was sort of like, squealing in pleasure at like, certain compositions, certain line readings. I just think that movie is so amazing. And there is a direct through-line—I mean, there is a reference to Repulsion in Neon Demon. And I think that those two films would make an insane double feature. You know, just the way that you’re dealing with women who are looked at and objectified, and then their internal experience of it, and the horror of that, and what that objectification means for them. Um, was that—was that a conversation that you were having with Nick Refn while you were in the writing process? I mean, were you saying like, “Oh, this is like Repulsion,” or was—were there any references or things that you guys uh, referred to while you—
mary
I mean, I think we watched it together. Nick and I did. Yeah, we watched a bunch of films together, um, and Repulsion was definitely one of them. Um, uh, Don’t Look Now, I think I remember us watching together. And so absolutely, we referenced it all the time. All the time. Because we were really interested in, um, the interna experience of these women, and like—because I think that movie is very much about both the internal experience of women, and then the sort of objectification of the women, and like, the switching between both of those. Like, points of view, and how they then—how the women become to be—began to objectify themselves as well. You know, I think the whole movie is shot really like, through a sort of male gazey kind of lens, which is really exciting. Natasha Braier was the cinematographer on that, which, she’s—
katie
She’s amazing.
mary
Brilliant. Oh my god. She is so brilliant, and um, and so yeah, we definitely—we definitely talked about Repulsion. It was always in our conversations as we were developing this film together.
katie
I feel like Neon Demon is kind of a little bit of a twist on Repulsion in the sense that men feel constantly like, this threat in her life. I mean, the Keanu character, the photographer Jack character. It’s constantly like, worry about men, and then the real danger is the women. [Mary affirms.] Um, and so that, I think, is just this interesting sort of tist on the ideas that are brought up by Repulsion.
mary
Well, I think it’s really interesting. You know, Neon Demon, when I was writing it, I went around and I interviewed a lot of women. Some—a couple of like, models, um, a few of the women in the movie are models. Abbey Lee is a model. Um, and then also just friends. Just like, women that I know. And I was like, “Let’s talk about beauty. Tell me about how you think about you think about your own beauty. Tell me how you think about your own body.” And it was always so interesting to me, because [Scoffing] the fear—and this is not news—but like, every single person, it was like, the fear of their own body was just about the fear of men not liking their bodies anymore. And I just—I think that part of The Neon Demon, for me, was just about that sort of um, that ingrained patriarchy. That ingrained male gaze that we, as women, just sort of accept from an early age, and then we become our own villains. Which is just—it’s crazy. And I think that that’s, you know, a lot of how the women in the film operated. Um, at the end of the day, the men weren’t important at all. They sort of disappear from the movie, and it’s just about the women’s desire to like, literally consume this young, new, fresh blood. This new model who is getting the eyes on her, you know, and how cold and how dark it feels when you—when you age, and you’ve subscribed to that kind of belief, right? That—that the male gaze is everything to a woman, and that thinness is everything to a woman, and that you will eventually just sort of implode and that you will become that villain as well. Anyway, I was really interested when I was having those kinds of conversations with my female friends. And so certainly that became a part of the film as well.
katie
In Repulsion, what I kind of appreciate about it, watching it as a woman, is there’s this expectation of peril. That she should be receptive to these men, and she should make them feel like she likes them. You know, I think there’s a line that Colin says, where he’s like, “I don’t think you like me very much,” or something. Or she has to make him feel comfortable. I think, as women, we constantly sort of feel this—this like, oh, I have to make this man feel safe or comfortable in order for us to protect our own safety, in a way. [Mary affirms.] And she just sort of rejects that. And I think, you know, it’s funny, because Polanski, in a couple of interviews, and like, on the Criterion commentary, he says, “She has a problem.” But the way I interpret is the whole world around her is the problem. You know? So—
mary
I mean, definitely.
katie
Yeah. So it’s interesting, because I look at, even though Carol turns into this murderer, I’m like, “Girl, I get it. Relatable.” [Both laugh.]
mary
I’ve been there.
katie
Like, when she’s all disheveled in the house, I’m like, “That looks like me. That looks familiar.”
mary
Yeah. Definitely. What’s the—there are these tiny, tiny scenes in the film where she’s looking out the window at um, it’s like a group of nuns.
katie
Yes, the nuns! I love when she’s looking at the nuns.
mary
So, I think about that all the time, too, and what—I mean, what I love about Polanski’s films—Heather and I just watched um, Knife in the Water the other day. And like, every shot is some kind of symbol, you know? There’s some kind of like—you can look at a shot and you can read like, ten things into it, and I love that. And I think about the nuns all the time, and I think you can interpret that in a number of different ways, but I think it applies to what you’re saying, which is that, here is a group of women who have chosen to live outside of like, the rules of the—the traditional rules of the world for women. They’re virgins, and they don’t necessarily have to deal with men on a day to day basis. They’re cloistered together as women. And I think that that’s really interesting, her just gazing at them. And I’ve always wondered if that’s Carol’s personal longing, for that kind of life where she doesn’t have to make men happy, or where she—it’s almost like a symbol, she’s gazing at a symbol of innocence. Um, where she—because I—my interpretation of the film is generally that she does have some kind of sexual trauma, and I think that that last image of the photograph is what sort of seals the deal to me. It’s like, um, it just feels like that sort of rope-a-dope punch at the very end, where you’ve just been like, fighting the whole movie, and it’s just like, “Boom, there. There it is.” It always knocks my socks off when I see it at the very end. So that is always—that has always been my interpretation. But her gazing at the nuns always feels to me just like, um, like that—wouldn’t that be nice, you know? I’m sure there are a million other interpretations, but—
katie
Oh, I absolutely think she’s looking at the nuns longingly. And the nuns are laughing, and they’re playing. They’re like, playing soccer or something. [Mary affirms.] And there’s this real sense of innocent play that I feel that, yes. I think Carol is childlike, and that she might be stunted in her sort of emotional growth, which could be due to childhood trauma. Um, and I would also, you know, make the argument that she is suffering from childhood trauma, but um—you know, based on the photograph. But yeah, it’s like she doesn’t get to play. And I think that’s just what she wants is to be in this like, safe environment of women, that’s not invaded by men, and it’s not invaded by men’s intentions. And I think there’s some really interesting performance choices with the men, of like, grabbing her hair, and grabbing her arm. And then the—um, Michael, who’s having the affair with her sister, is pinching her sister’s butt. You know, it’s just like, you have no space.
mary
Autonomy, yeah.
katie
And you’re supposed to grant that. In this world, that’s what you’re supposed to grant. And I do have to, you know, I have my own, obviously, interpretations of what that means. And I’m like, does Polanski like, is he showing this like, “Ugh, look at this girl, you know, she can’t hang.” Or is he saying, look at this, like I take it as, look at the oppression of this world where men won’t leave you alone. You can’t walk down the street, or eat lunch, or do your job, or do anything without having to like, cater to their attention.”
mary
Yeah. That’s always my interpretation of it, too. I mean, again, coming from a place of her sort of internalized childhood trauma. Like, looking at those nuns and seeing them play, I think is a really good point. But like, if you—if you’re looking at the whole film as a lens of like, she had some kind of sexual abuse as a child, or some kidn of hcildhood abuse, then she was a person who never got to play, right? And—and so I think that that’s really interesting. I think even the fact that she works at a beauty salon is really interesting, because there are those like, up close shots of her painting women’s nails and making them beautiful. And again, it’s all for um, the benefit and the joy of men—
katie
Yes.
mary
—in the film. And so um, yeah.
katie
Yeah, no, the—the customers that she has repeatedly, these older women who are constantly getting those facemasks and stuff. And it’s not, you know, plastic surgery or anything, but you’re like, “Gosh, this lady’s back again.” [Both laugh.]
music
“Switchblade Comb” by Mobius VanChocStraw.
mary
It’s a lot of work to be a woman for a man.
katie
Exactly! Okay, well, let’s take another really quick break, and we will be back in a minute with Mary Laws. [Music fades.]
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“Switchblade Comb” by Mobius VanChocStraw.
katie
And we are back, Switchblade Sisters, with Mary Laws, talking about Repulsion. I wanted to also ask, because, thinking about the apartment trilogy, they’re films that really could be, um, plays, because they’re all set in one setting. And I was wondering, you know, when you transitioned from playwriting to stage and screen, I mean, do you have a different approach to writing, and obviously writing horror, for stage and screen? I was reading about your play, Blueberry Toast. [Mary affirms.] Which all takes place in one house, I think.
mary
Mm-hm. One room.
katie
And, I mean, it sounds amazing. I would love to see it at some point. But, uh, you know, what is your—like, how do you—is this idea of like, all-in-one setting—I mean, that can be a trope for horror films as well. Or not even a trope, but like, something that people do, um, to create that kind of sense of claustrophobia. I mean, is there a—is there a change that you’ve had to make to your writing, or not necessarily?
mary
Oh yeah, I mean, they’re completely different art forms, and there are certainly skills that you learn from one that you can apply to the other. But um, you know, like, if I’m talking about Blueberry Toast, like, that’s a play that, I think, had—it’s not a horror play, but it had elements of like, high tension and of, um, of uh, like sort of, uh, the horrific way that a household, um, or marriage can disintegrate into violence. Um, and I—I think that—but it unfolds in real time. You know, the whole play is about an hour and ten minutes long, and it really just tracks from a to z in totally real time. There’s no intermission. It’s all one scene, there aren’t interruptions. Um, I think that, you know, if we’re talking about Repulsion, the difference would be that you—you can’t track that play in realtime. And I think that one of the beautiful things about that play is that once she’s there in the house and truly unraveling in the house is, you know, visually unravelling as sort of uh, symbolism of her internal monologue as her brain is, um—you lose track of time completely. And I think that that is—that’s something that film can do that theater can’t do. You can never lose track of time in theater, not really. Anthough, I mean, I’d love for someone to try, or tell me how. But I just feel like what’s beautiful about theater is that you yourself are going on that real time journey. But in film, you know, you can play. There are cuts. [Laughs] And um, and I think that that’s really exciting, because I think then you can take a character on, you know, a different kind of journey. Um, I—I wrote an episode of Monsterland—which is, I think, our third episode—set in New Orleans, Louisiana, about a woman who is in a house and sort of losing her mind, um, in this sort of like, third quarter of the episode. And definitely Repulsion was an inspiration when I was writing that, but it too has a lot of cuts, and it feels like endless night. And I don’t think that that’s something I’ve ever really seen in theater. I think, of course, anything is possible, but I love that, um, that in film you can stretch and disorient time. And that feels, like, again, very real to me. That feels like a real experience of like, having a night full of anxiety, you know? It feels like endless night. It feels like you don’t know if it’s twelve in the morning, or if it’s 4 A.M. And so I think that’s a really exciting thing that Repulsion does very well.
katie
Um, one thing that I also wanted to talk about. We haven’t touched on Succession yet, but that is probably the thing that you’ve worked on that is not horror. Although, [Laughing] could an argument be made that there are elements of horror.
mary
Certain kind of horror.
katie
Certain kind of monsters on Succession.
mary
Yeah, definitely. Um, yeah, um, I mean, Succession was such a pleasure to work on. I was only with those writers for one season. It sort of worked out perfectly, um, as I was transitioning off of Preacher, and I was developing Monsterland. And I had this sort of window of time, uh, and go to go to—to London and hang out with um, I mean, I call them the X-Men. Those writers are so fantastic. I hung out with the X-Men for three months. Um, and um, I mean, I’ve never been in a smarter room, um, of human beings, or a funnier or even more casual room of human beings. I think I learned a lot by watching the way that Jessie Armstrong runs a room with, like, short hours and a lot of grace. And it’s a huge room. Um, you know, Monsterland, I had a writer’s room of— [Exactly one soft and gentle boof from a small dog.] —four people, plus me. And I think when I was in the Succession room, there were like, ten or something. It’s a really, really a lot of—a meeting of a lot of different minds. Um, but I, yeah, it was a very generous place to work. It was so out of the box for me. It was—I almost, I think like, you know,, when they were asking me to come in and talk to Jessie about the job, I think I called my agent, and I was just like, “Are you guys sure?” [Laughs] Like, this really doesn’t feel—this doesn’t really feel like me. But, um, you know, I think—I think the thing that did really resonate for me was the exploration of like, a really good character study. Because I think all those characters are just so um, uh, really well drawn, and so defined, and so um, that was fun. I think certainly there were times when I would pitch sort of [Through laughter] wild ideas that they would be like, “No!”
katie
No hands crawling out of the wall to grab Kendal.
mary
Yeah, really, why? Um, yeah, Kendal doesn’t take drugs and have like, a wild manic panic dream. But um, I think that, you know, I love anything that challenges me. Anything that challenges me makes me better, and it was certainly a challenge to access that part of myself as a writer. Um, and also, I mean, it really functions a lot like a comedy room, because they’re all, for the most part, comedy writers. Like, a lot of those writers came off of Veep, or were actually still working on the last season of Veep while they were working on the second season of Succession with me. And so it was just a fast room, too. I mean, my girlfriend is a comedian, and so she’s really quite used to comedy rooms. But I would call her on my way home and I’d be like, “I can’t think of my jokes fast enough!” You know? [Katie laughs.] Um, and—and when I—when I tell people that Succession is really a comedy, they all sort of like, laugh, but I think it is.
katie
Oh, it is. It is.
mary
It totally is. It’s a—it’s a dark satirization of um, these like, very real, well-drawn people. Um, so, anyway, but yes. It was nothing—nothing but a joy to work on, and I think that anything that challenges you just stretches you and it makes you so much better.
katie
Well, that’s a great note to end on. Mary, thank you so much for talking to us about—about Repulsion, and Neon Demon, and all of these amazing things that you’re working on. And everyone watch Monsterland. I cannot stress enough, it is so good.
mary
Aw, thank you so much.
katie
If you want to let us know what you think of the show, you can tweet at us @SwitchbladePod or email us at SwitchbladeSisters@maximumfun.org. Please check out our Facebook group. That’s Facebook.com/groups/switchbladesisters. Our producer this week is Jordan Cowling. Our senior producer is Laura Swisher, and this is a production of MaximumFun.org. [Music fades.]
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Comedy and culture.
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Artist owned—
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About the show
Switchblade Sisters is a podcast providing deep cuts on genre flicks from a female perspective. Every week, screenwriter and former film critic April Wolfe sits down with a phenomenal female film-maker to slice-and-dice a classic genre movie – horror, exploitation, sci-fi and many others! Along the way, they cover craft, the state of the industry, how films get made, and more. Mothers, lock up your sons, the Switchblade Sisters are coming!
Follow @SwitchbladePod on Twitter and join the Switchblade Sisters Facebook group. Email them at switchbladesisters@maximumfun.org.
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