TRANSCRIPT One Bad Mother Episode 452: You’ve Been Expecting It… It’s MaxFunDrive! with Heidi Murkoff

00:00:00

Biz Ellis

Host

Hi. I’m Biz.

00:00:01

Theresa Thorn

Host

And I’m Theresa.

00:00:02

Biz

Host

Due to the pandemic, we bring you One Bad Mother straight from our homes—including such interruptions as: children! Animal noises! And more! So let’s all get a little closer while we have to be so far apart. And remember—we are doing a good job.

00:00:20

Music

Music

“Summon the Rawk” by Kevin MacLeod. Driving electric guitar and heavy drums.

[Continues through dialogue.]

00:00:25

Biz

Host

This week on One Bad Mother—you’ve been expecting it! It’s MaxFunDrive! Speaking of expecting, we talk to Heidi Murkoff about what to expect when you are expecting. Plus, MaxFunDrive!

00:00:37

Crosstalk

Crosstalk

Biz and caller: Woooo!

00:00:40

Caller

Caller

[Singsong voice] This is a check-in!

00:00:41

Biz

Host

La, la, la-la, la! [Laughs.] 

00:00:43

Caller

Caller

I just dropped off my three-year-old at daycare and my six-year-old at her March break camp all in one go and now I’m gonna go get some fast food breakfast for me and my partner to eat at home while we work. And it’s a pretty good day! My older kid is really nervous about day camp because she hasn’t done it since the summer and so she’s nervous about making a new friend and being around all these kids she doesn’t know, but we talked through it and I think she’s gonna have an okay day. So that’s where we’re at. It’s March break. I have one drop off in the morning for the week, one pickup in the evening, and that’s kinda nice. Thanks for the show, guys.

00:01:24

Biz

Host

Thank you! You are doing a great job. You know what this reminds me of? The fact that we have zero control about what happens to our children, really, in terms of their [through laughter] emotional control when they go out in the world. So what I wanna say is good job recognizing what you do have control over, which is just… saying to yourself, “I bet they’re gonna have a good time. I’m gonna go with, ‘This is going to be good.’ And in the meantime, celebrate one smooth drop off and something delicious while my partner and I work.” I think you are doing a really good job! And I appreciate this check-in. 

You know what I also appreciate? It’s MaxFunDrive! What does that mean? Well, many of you know, so buckle up. MaxFunDrive is two weeks of celebrating how you—yes, youuuu—make One Bad Mother and the other shows at MaxFun happen. So to recap, One Bad Mother is listener-supported. Your support makes it so I can commit to making this show every week, and the show has been happening for ten years now! This is MaxFunDrive 10, baby! For us! And you made that possible. Your support also makes Gabe possible. Sort of like, y’know, that scene in the… Peter Pan where, “If you believe, clap your hands!” Well your support is like clapping hands and it has made Gabe magically appear. And it is so nice. And your support helps with all the different aspects of the show, including the hotline. 

You can become a supporter any time, but during the Drive, there are special challenges, fun rewards, cool events, and more. So this year’s Drive is one of the most important for the show. ‘K? Just buckle up. Just listen—here we go. We’re going in. Why is it so important, Biz? Well, when you become a new member or upgrade your membership or even bump your current support, you are sending me a message. You are telling me—and you’re also sending a message to MaxFun—that One Bad Mother still has value and that you want us to find new ways for the show to grow. If this show has made you feel less alone, consider joining right now. If One Bad Mother has gotten you through the forest for this pandemic, please consider joining right now. [Laughs.] If the hotline has given you a place to put your breakdowns—[Laughs.] Or if the show has helped you view yourself and those around you in a more empathetic or supportive way, show us that you want the show to continue by—right now—right now—going to MaximumFun.org/join. 

Right now, now, now. You have kids in your house, so you might not ever get another chance. I’m just gonna say—if we reach our goal, I am going to get a new tattoo that has to do with One Bad Mother. So stick around for more details about that. So become a new member, upgrade your membership, or boost your membership by a dollar or two right now at MaximumFun.org/join. Thank you. I’m not even gonna do our normal big thank-you segment because today it’s all about me thanking you and your support. Speaking of reflecting on how I view others—I think I made a nod to that earlier—I had the most amazing conversation with Heidi Murkoff, who wrote What to Expect When You’re Expecting.

00:05:15

Music

Music

Banjo strums; cheerful banjo music continues through dialogue.

00:05:16

Theresa

Host

Please—take a moment to remember: If you’re friends of the hosts of One Bad Mother, you should assume that when we talk about other moms, we’re talking about you.

00:05:23

Biz

Host

If you are married to the host of One Bad Mother, we definitely are talking about you.

00:05:27

Theresa

Host

Nothing we say constitutes professional parenting advice.

00:05:30

Biz

Host

Biz and Theresa’s children are brilliant, lovely, and exceedingly extraordinary.

00:05:34

Theresa

Host

Nothing said on this podcast about them implies otherwise.

[Banjo music fades out.] 

[Biz and her guest repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss the weekly topic. The guest’s internet connection occasionally results in garbled audio.]

00:05:40

Biz

Host

This week, I am so excited. We are going to be talking to Heidi Murkoff, who is the author of the What to Expect When You’re Expecting series of pregnancy guides. She’s also the creator of WhatToExpect.com and founder of the What To Expect Foundation. TIME Magazine named Murkoff one of the 100 Most Influential People in the world for 2011, and in 2005 she was inducted into the Books For A Better Life hall of fame. She has been honored by Smithsonian Associates with the prestigious John P. McGovern award, which recognizes contributions to American families. Gee, guys. All I ever did was make a baby! Welcome—[Laughs.] 

00:06:21

Crosstalk

Crosstalk

Heidi: I did that, too! I did it twice! I did!

Biz: You did?! You did it twice! You did it twice!

00:06:26

Biz

Host

But before we get into all of that, I would love to ask you what we ask all of our guests, which is—who lives in your house?

00:06:34

Heidi Murkoff

Guest

Well, I assume he’s still breathing. I have a nineteen-and-a-half-year-old Chihuahua named Harry.

00:06:40

Biz

Host

Ahh! Chihuahua!

00:06:42

Heidi

Guest

He’s currently sleeping, most likely under the covers in our bed. And then I have Eric, who is my partner in everything. All the good stuff, all the boring stuff, everything. Yeah! He’s my baby daddy, actually. Not coincidental to this conversation—

[Biz laughs.] 

—we owe everything What to Expect to Eric, because he got me knocked up! 

00:07:08

Biz

Host

Ohhhhh!

00:07:11

Heidi

Guest

However, the pivotal one was the first one, because yeah. I had to run out and write a pregnancy book because there weren’t any and that’s how What to Expect was born.

00:07:20

Biz

Host

Well that knocks out that first question. [Laughs.] 

00:07:23

Heidi

Guest

Well I [inaudible]—I can go into more detail.

00:07:25

Biz

Host

Well, interview is over!

00:07:27

Heidi

Guest

It was very much an “oops” kind of pregnancy ‘cause we had just gotten married and we were—I’ll tell you, actually, I was drinking a beer? Not during conception, but—although I might’ve been. And it tasted really bad and I had no idea why? That’s how little I knew—

00:07:42

Biz

Host

That’ll do it.

00:07:44

Heidi

Guest

I was really the definition of clueless when it came to—well, pretty much I was barely an adult. And I was a mom on a mission! I had, y’know, two hours before I went into labor with Emma—and that’s a true story you can’t make that shit up—

[Biz laughs.] 

—I delivered the proposal for What to Expect When You’re Expecting. 

00:08:05

Biz

Host

Okay. Alright. This is gonna be fun. Okay. One, ya shoulda named the book Why Does My Beer Taste Funny? And then two—

00:08:14

Heidi

Guest

There’s a chapter.

00:08:16

Biz

Host

Okay. You are writing—oh, I know. You are writing a What to Expect When You’re Expecting—‘cause it’s not a What to Expect After. That’s a different thing. What to Expect When You’re Expecting. And you’ve yet to… I mean, dare I say you were a bit of a novice!

00:08:35

Heidi

Guest

And then—yeah! Things took a turn for the worse when they handed me a baby. But what I did know and the only thing I did know was that I had hundreds of questions and thousands of worries and I couldn’t sleep at night ‘cause everything was keeping me up. Not just my belly, but the fact that I didn’t have answers to my questions. Remember, there was no such thing as—

00:08:57

Biz

Host

The internet.

00:08:58

Heidi

Guest

That’s probably a mixed blessing that we have it? I’d say? But at the same time, we were the first in our group of friends to have a baby by a long shot. So I didn’t have, y’know, now if you need sisterhood and community, you just go on the What To Expect app. You got enough time on your hands? You can make twenty million friends. Right?

[Biz laughs.] 

All going through the same experience at the same time. I wish I had had that, but I didn’t. And as a result, I just… I just was determined that nobody stay up all night worrying about their pregnancy if I could do something about it. And literally that’s why I did what I did.

00:09:41

Biz

Host

Alright. I have two questions spawning out of this. One, so you’ve written the book. Hopefully it answered [through laughter] all the things you needed to know beforehand and made you feel—did it make you feel less anxious when you were gathering the data? Because I mean, everybody’s read your book. Any of us who might be prone to—

00:10:04

Heidi

Guest

Anxiety?

00:10:06

Biz

Host

Anxiety! It’s like, “Okay, great! All these things could happen.”

00:10:09

Heidi

Guest

Funny story.

00:10:10

Biz

Host

Yeah! Tell me this. We’re gonna have to just delve into…

00:10:14

Heidi

Guest

Yeah. So the first—now, What to Expect has evolved—What to Expect When You’re Expecting—has evolved a lot [inaudible]?

00:10:22

Biz

Host

Oh, I can’t wait. I got that question coming, too, okay? So let’s just—

00:10:25

Heidi

Guest

But—but. The first edition of the first book was very, “Don’t worry! Don’t worry! Don’t worry!” And then people started—y’know those things like they had stamps on them? They’re—

00:10:38

Biz

Host

Oh, letters! 

00:10:39

Heidi

Guest

Letters! Right. 

00:10:41

Biz

Host

Mail. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:10:43

Heidi

Guest

And I would start getting letters saying, “Y’know, this is great, but… you didn’t mention this. This happened to me. And I looked it up and it wasn’t in your book and I was like, ‘Hmm.’” So following that, more of that stuff became incorporated into the book. Then I started getting the letters, y’know, “You’re scaring the shit out of me.” So—okay.

[Biz laughs.] 

Back to work. 

00:11:07

Biz

Host

You are the only person who can speak to pregnancy, Heidi! I am sorry to tell you this, but you are it! That’s it!

00:11:14

Heidi

Guest

So—but really, your best source of—your best resource is gonna be other moms and dads who read the book and say, “Wait.” Y’know. “I need this.” And so that’s why it has to keep evolving. I don’t get those “letters,” you called them? Letters?

00:11:32

Biz

Host

Oh, you probably get much worse on—thanks to the internet now.

00:11:35

Heidi

Guest

Oh, I get a lot worse. I get a lot worse. 

00:11:37

Biz

Host

The internet is not a healthy place. [Laughs.] 

00:11:39

Heidi

Guest

We can talk about those later. But um… but the point being, then I started putting the stuff that could happen but probably won’t happen in the back of the book, so that if you did have a complicated pregnancy, you could go to the back of the book. You can’t stop people from looking where they’re not supposed to look? But I, y’know, have copious caveats about it. Like, “If—"

00:12:03

Biz

Host

You’re getting closer! You’re getting closer! Don’t turn the page! [Laughs.] 

00:12:08

Heidi

Guest

“Don’t look! Don’t look!” But y’know. It’s true! That things can go wrong. And if they do go wrong, you want someone—first of all—to help you, y’know, to speak to your concerns. And also encourage you to get the medical attention that you need. Rather than saying, “Oh, everything’s, y’know—” Part of the whole lesson, I think of this is that you don’t know everything about pregnancy? Nobody does? But if you do one thing—trust your gut—and I don’t mean that protruding gut? I mean trust your mom gut. Because often, y’know, you have a symptom and y’know and the doctor’s saying, “Eh, it’s just part of the pregnancy package.” But you have a sense that it isn’t. You have the sense that something isn’t quite right. And too easily, doctors, nurses, midwives, might dismiss something that you’re feeling. This is especially true if you are a woman of color.

00:13:07

Biz

Host

Color, I know. It’s awareness this week. It’s the Maternal Awareness Week.

00:13:13

Heidi

Guest

And that’s—it’s critically important that—and I think that was part of, y’know, something that What to Expect helped change. Is making women more empowered. Making them participants in their healthcare. Funny story—another—I’m full of funny stories.

[Biz laughs.] 

 But the first time I went to ACOG—which is American College of OB/GYNs—was, I don’t know. A million years ago. And by the way, all the doctors were older white men. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. 

00:13:44

Biz

Host

No, but—

00:13:46

Heidi

Guest

But. So we were—[through laughter] my publisher was giving out copies of What to Expect to all the doctors who were attending. And I literally heard two older gentlemen walking by saying, “Huh. What do women know about pregnancy?”

00:14:00

Biz

Host

Ahhh! Gotta [inaudible] my hair out! Ahhhhh! [Laughs.] 

00:14:04

Heidi

Guest

So—

00:14:05

Biz

Host

FYI, that’s still happening. Anyway. [Laughs.] 

00:14:08

Heidi

Guest

It’s still happening. And it—again, it’s still happening more with women of color. 

00:14:11

Biz

Host

Yes. Exactly.

00:14:13

Heidi

Guest

And women who are not empowered by knowledge. Y’know, that’s where a resource like What to Expect comes in. Is because you need—you don’t know what you don’t know. And you need to be empowered with that knowledge. Knowledge is power. It’s especially empowering when you’re pregnant. So first you gotta get that information, then you gotta trust your gut. And you have to speak up, and then others have to hear you. That’s a great CDC campaign, hashtag #HearHer. Because too often, nobody does listen! There’s been a transformation in many ways in how in the pregnancy experience? That’s just one of them. Where we have become, y’know, we’re not driving the car by ourselves? ‘Cause that would be not the smartest thing you could do? But we are driving it together with our provider. That’s key.

00:15:08

Biz

Host

Yeah. Okay. So, A, thank you for saying all of that because I just wanna acknowledge that… knowledge can cause anxiety, but knowledge can also give us language and autonomy to bring those things up, which is very powerful. There have been several editions, ‘cause a book like this changes. What has changed and over the years, witnessing these changes, how has it affected your view of how we—society—views pregnancy? 

00:15:43

Heidi

Guest

Oh, well. First of all, when I was pregnant for the first time? 

[Biz laughs.] 

And all we have to do is look at the first cover of the first edition. Please don’t do that. 

[Biz laughs.] 

Please don’t do that, ‘cause you won’t be able to unsee it. But. It’s a woman in a rocking chair in, like, a muumuu? Like, a polyester pup tent you could sleep a family of four under? And she looks, quite frankly, I used to kid myself. She’s got kinda like that Mona Lisa, y’know…

[Biz laughs.] 

Contemplative, like, smile? But in fact she looks pissed. 

00:16:21

Biz

Host

Yeah. Which I think is appropriate. [Laughs.] 

00:16:23

Heidi

Guest

Yes! It is miserable. And that was a moment in time when we didn’t celebrate pregnancy. When I was pregnant, I remember one time I—first of all, don’t even get me started on the maternity jeans I owned? They would make mom jeans look like the coolest thing in history.

[Biz laughs.] 

But I once wore a bathing suit to my in-laws’ community pool and it was just a stretchy red bathing suit. And of course, my bump was showing. And people looked at me like I was naked. Like I was doing something offensive and obscene because I was showing my bump! And then Demi Moore came along and nude on the cover of—and the transformation of how we look at pregnancy. And now you see my daughter on the cover of the fifth edition, and she—when she was pregnant with Lenox. And she’s holding her belly and proud of her belly and she’s wearing tight clothes and celebrating the fact that she’s pregnant. Now, there’s lots of things about pregnancy that you don’t wanna celebrate? That are super not fun? And in fact, none of those have changed. So you wanna talk about things that haven’t changed. 

[Biz laughs.] 

You’re bloated and queasy and constipated and [inaudible] and, y’know, you hate everybody around you and all of those things. You’ve got backache and sciatica. Your boobs hurt. Everything. So those things haven’t changed, but so many things have changed. And I think many of them in a really positive way, we have access to more information. We’re more empowered. We take our, y’know, our healthcare seriously? And we’re not—no longer just sitting on the sideline with, y’know, the doctor saying, “Oh, don’t worry! Don’t worry, dear! I’m gonna take this pregnancy from here. You just sit there and look pregnant.” We don’t do that anymore!

00:18:24

Biz

Host

So we’re slowly becoming an involved society that takes women—I mean, ‘cause when we say “pregnancy,” we are totally talking about women, as well. Or those who identify as women or those who are—they may not identify as women, but they are carrying. And so it’s… being pregnant.

00:18:45

Heidi

Guest

By the way, becoming a mom, which—y’know, or a dad. Y’know, I feel like dads are—we’re afraid to say that word anymore, I think? Because there are so many—so it could be a partner. That’s fine. Great. 

00:18:56

Biz

Host

No, no, no, no! But dads also get the shit end of the stick all the time with that label. 

00:19:01

Heidi

Guest

And there’s dad bashing. I think it’s so important to see this as a partnership, no matter what your partner is. It doesn’t matter. Y’know. And then you go into non-birthing-partner—whatever. All I wanna say—

[Biz laughs.] 

—is that I feel it’s important if there are two people involved in the process? That they are both active participants. And that we encourage that and we don’t sideline fathers or others because they don’t have a uterus. It’s not—

00:19:32

Biz

Host

Oh, yeah. No. Well, I gotta tell ya—one of the most helpful things was just passing the book over to my husband, Stefan, and being like, “I need you to read it so that you know what’s happening.” That’s right! These organs are somewhere else now. They’re literally not where they once were!

00:19:48

Heidi

Guest

They have been relocated!

00:19:50

Biz

Host

They have been relocated and it’s all gonna go back, but probably not in the same place. Now. When it comes to some of that—I wanna ask—and maybe this goes nowhere. But my kids are four years apart. And when I was first pregnant, it was… no peanut butter. And then it was, within four years—within four years it was like, a little peanut butter.

00:20:10

Heidi

Guest

And now a lot of peanut butter!

00:20:12

Biz

Host

Yeah! My mother—like, fed me chicken! Like—[Laughs.] Like at six months or something! So… one of the things I take away from that is… sometimes—

00:20:25

Heidi

Guest

Things change.

00:20:27

Biz

Host

Things are very fluid when it comes to—so were there any of those in the process of these different editions that you were like, “Really? Are we really changing this one again?” Do you have any favorites?

00:20:39

Heidi

Guest

Well that peanut butter is a really good example, because for a long time—as you said—the experts worried that eating peanut butter would cause a peanut allergy. So the whole thing was no peanut for your little peanut. Now we know that, in fact, desensitizing—even for a baby—so now at six months, you’re supposed to introduce highly-allergenic foods unless there’s a serious reason not to such as maybe you had severe food allergies as a child. But it’s all about desensitizing through exposure. And that doesn’t mean, y’know, you have to eat a jar of peanut butter. And by the way—little-known fact—the one thing you cannot perform a Heimlich maneuver for? 

00:21:27

Biz

Host

Is peanut butter? 

00:21:29

Heidi

Guest

You cannot stop choking in the process if it is globs of peanut butter. It just lodges and you can’t dislodge it. So do not—I can’t tell you how many times I’ve brought this up with moms—I know you wanna take a spoon to that jar of Skippy, but step away from the jar with the spoon. 

[Biz laughs.] 

Do not [inaudible].

00:21:47

Biz

Host

A very tiny spoon. Little spoon. Or a finger.

00:21:50

Heidi

Guest

Or spread it on bread. Even better.

00:21:52

Biz

Host

[Through laughter] Oh my god! I have never thought about that! Great! Great!

00:21:57

Heidi

Guest

It’s true. It’s true. With a steak, you can dislodge it. If you’re alone, you could do it yourself on a table. But not with peanut butter. So don’t make that mistake. Anyway. I digress, as usual. Things like weight gain [inaudible]—yeah, a lot. Because when my mother was pregnant and when Eric’s mother was pregnant, they were told to gain ten, fifteen pounds tops. And of course they were smoking all the time, so that was—

00:22:26

Biz

Host

Oh, right, wooo!

00:22:28

Heidi

Guest

—yeah. There are so many of those things have changed. And then it became like, “Gain as much as you want!” And then doctors started saying, “You know, but it does—it does put you at a higher risk for gestational diabetes and other complications that could impact not only your health during pregnancy, but your child’s future health if you do that.” So it’s like everything’s very fluid, as you said. Y’know. The amount of coffee you can drink. Whatever alcohol. Y’know. But those things have pretty much been stable of late? But episiotomies, for instance. [Inaudible] episiotomies! Like, you had to! There was no question! And after three-and-a-half hours of trying to push Emma out? I was like, “Bring it on! Bring it on.” And I was on Medicaid and that’s another thing that has changed. Because [inaudible] granola crunchy times, right? I was never offered an epidural. It was not even on the menu.

00:23:27

Biz

Host

I was like, “Shoot me like a deer running away from a group of hunters. I just—right in the back.” And like I said—and as we’ve discussed on the show, what’s nice is that… the more we talk about our experiences and the more we talk about normalizing pregnancy, we are normalizing choices. Choices… 

00:23:50

Heidi

Guest

Yes, yes, yes.

00:23:52

Biz

Host

Should we even just trust experts anymore? [Laughs.] 

00:23:55

Heidi

Guest

Um… well I—

00:23:57

Biz

Host

That word, “Expert” is—I’m like, “Oh, are you?” [Laughs.] 

00:23:59

Heidi

Guest

No, except that—yeah. In—kind of in this day, particularly? With all of the vaccine misinformation and anti-science information? It’s kinda more important than ever to trust the right experts. Now that doesn’t mean that anyone knows your body better than you do. No. That does not. But it does mean that somebody went to a lot of years of medical school and then more training and then more training to be, y’know, an expert in epidemiology or an expert in vaccine science. So that you need to have a certain—and those things are fluid as well! Like, you don’t—we didn’t know what we didn’t know about COVID! Experts did not know! But they had to find out and the best way to find out is through science! Not through, y’know, your cousin in wherever. Like—

[Biz laughs.] 

It’s just not the best idea. 

00:24:58

Biz

Host

Well and that’s true for, I think… so many things related to pregnancy and bodies in terms of… reaching out and asking or being given a resource with language. Just because Grandma and Aunt, y’know, Lucy pee when they sneeze ‘cause that’s just how it is—doesn’t mean that that’s—

00:25:22

Heidi

Guest

How it has to be.

00:25:23

Biz

Host

Like, that we’re all just stuck being depressed or we’re all stuck being—right?

00:25:27

Heidi

Guest

No, no, no, no, no! Oh my god, that’s another incredibly important issue. The peeing when you’re sneezing, A, go see a pelvic floor therapist right away. During pregnancy. That’s critical. But then in terms of mental health and we’re coming up on Maternal Mental Health Week, first week in May, and that is something that was always swept under the carpet. Nobody wanted to talk about it. And still, to be honest, in many moms who I meet? And I meet because I meet a lot of military moms, especially, who feel like it’s not enough to simply be Mom Strong? You have to—if you’re in the military, you have to be Mom Strong but you also have to be strong for your family or—you have to be strong for your country! That’s like added—you don’t—

00:26:13

Biz

Host

That’s a lot of pressure! [Laughs.] 

00:26:15

Heidi

Guest

It’s a lot of pressure and sometimes being strong means asking for help. And what you’re saying is normalizing. It’s not normal to have postpartum depression? It’s treatable. So you shouldn’t accept it as something that just comes with the pregnancy package like stretch marks. Y’know. That comes with the package. You can’t really prevent them. Thank you, mom, if they happen to you because it’s genetics. But you can treat any pregnancy or postpartum mood disorder. And we all need to be very, very open about our experiences so that we can help other moms. 

00:26:55

Biz

Host

That’s right! We all know mama’s on the meds! And in therapy! Every week!

00:27:00

Heidi

Guest

For those who need it—and I think a pregnant woman’s first instinct is to toss her antidepressants when she becomes pregnant. Wrong thing to do. Yeah. And the right thing to do is call your doctor and make sure you’re taking meds that are pregnancy or breastfeeding appropriate, depending.

00:27:18

Biz

Host

Okay. I wanna wrap up on some of the advocacy and how this book—starting something like this has impacted your social advocacy. But I have to ask first—is this what you wanted to be when you grew up? [Laughs.] Like, were you like on your way to be a roadie and then you were like, “I’ll write this book.” [Laughs.] 

00:27:40

Heidi

Guest

I was actually—I was writing advertising for the five minutes that I was an adult. And so that’s where my lines come from is just I think in hashtags now? Thank god hashtags happened ‘cause that’s my jam.

[Biz laughs.] 

They used to be headlines. Now they’re hashtags. Anyway. And then Eric got me knocked up. We know that already. But when I was a little girl, I wanted to be like Barbara Walters. I wanted to interview people and be a journalist. But.

00:28:07

Biz

Host

Okay. I just had to ask that out of everything else. I’m like—

00:28:10

Heidi

Guest

Oh yes, when I grow up I want to write What to Expect When You’re Expecting!

[Biz laughs.] 

By the way, I didn’t even come up with the title. That was all my editor. I will never take credit for anything I didn’t do.

[Biz laughs.] 

00:28:19

Biz

Host

Alright. So now let’s do take a little credit. Let’s now talk a little bit about—you have been involved in this now for—since 1984—lots of things have changed. Lots of things have shifted. Talk to us about the advocacy that has come out of this and where people can go for help!

00:28:43

Heidi

Guest

Well first of all, my epiphany moment was when I went to Rikers Island prison to give a talk to pregnant inmates. And I realized immediately that these women were not—they were pregnant in prison, but they wanted the best for their babies just like I did. So that was the moment when I realized that every mom deserves that knowledge, that empowerment, that empathy and reassurance. So we started the What to Expect—it was then called the What to Expect Foundation, now called the What to Expect Project. And our first project within that was to write a book that was at a lower literacy level. That was beautiful but that was free and that was given out to moms so that every mom could have that information. 

But since then, oh, we have so many initiatives! I work with the USO in a partnership. We’ve done baby showers since 2013 probably… tens and tens of thousands of expecting military moms and spouses, we just got back from Europe. So many moms based there are so isolated, especially because their partners are deployed. Whether they’re active duty or not, the partners are deployed. And they are alone! I mean, [inaudible] in Japan have been on lockdown for two years. They haven’t seen their family. It’s just very isolated life and a very hard life. I don’t think those moms get enough credit or attention, so I’ve been doing advocacy around military families. 

We do advocacy around maternal health. July 20^th is our eighth—I think eighth annual Bump Day? Which is an annual day to celebrate beautiful bumps and healthy pregnancies, but also to call attention to the fact that we have the highest maternal mortality in the developed world! This wealthy country does not take care of its moms and babies. So with Black moms three times more likely to die as a consequence of neglectful care, essentially. And most of those are preventable, so that’s an important day. Coming up, we have a lot of initiatives coming up in terms of doulas. Because doulas, I feel, are the missing link in maternal health care.

00:31:00

Biz

Host

Yeah. I was just listening to an NPR show where they were talking specifically about how having doulas as part of your process… decreases the chance for infant or maternal mortality! And we’ve talked on the show—I mean, just talking about evolution, when we started this show ten years ago, my cohost was very into the doula experience and I was like, y’know, “What? That’s so weird!” And now I’m like, “Oh my god, why was I walking through—” Well, I know why I was walking through life with that kind of lens. Because I didn’t grow up around people talking about it!

00:31:41

Heidi

Guest

I’ve actually had doulas—big section on doulas in What to Expect When You’re Expecting for well over a decade. Because I do feel—especially for moms who aren’t listened to—they are an advocate. And I hear horror stories. We’re not talking about women who are not educated. We’re talking about women who just plain are not listened to. And y’know they say, “I have a headache” and they’re ignored, even though they have postpartum preeclampsia. Y’know. Until things get really serious or “I feel dizzy” or “I feel my heart’s pounding really fast” of “I feel this swelling isn’t normal,” and people don’t listen. That’s where an advocate like a doula comes in. And by the way, your chances not only—you lower your risk for a c-section, other medical interventions, but also your risk of postpartum anxiety disorder and depression. Like, this is powerful!

00:32:39

Biz

Host

Because somebody was listening to you while you were pregnant! That makes so much sense! [Laughs.] 

00:32:44

Heidi

Guest

And when you were in birth and was there for you during—doctors come and go! Nurses come and go! A doula is by your side for the entire birth process. That’s powerful.

00:32:55

Biz

Host

Yeah. That actually makes remarkable [inaudible].

00:32:56

Heidi

Guest

We should have doulas—we’ve got a piece of legislation passed that was doulas under TRICARE for military moms, but it should be covered under Medicaid. So that every mom—y’know, it’s fairly inexpensive but not something everyone can afford! Let’s make it free!

00:33:13

Biz

Host

Well, Heidi—you know what? This has been really fun. This is a fun one. Because you are—like, the book is such a presence out there in the world. And I know you know this—it can be something that becomes more of a symbol or a target depending on—

00:33:33

Heidi

Guest

Yes!

00:33:34

Biz

Host

—depending on the day.

00:33:36

Heidi

Guest

My god, yeah.

00:33:38

Biz

Host

And where somebody needs to focus some anger. It’s just such a great reminder to meet the people who create the works. Because there is no question in my mind—not that I had any right to have any questions in my mind—but no question in my mind that you are advocating and have always been advocating for pregnant people. Not just in the leading up to the pregnancy, during the pregnancy, and the post-pregnancy. And I am glad you did not go into advertising—

[Heidi laughs.]

And that you instead went into this. And I appreciate allowing your work to evolve. And… for your next edition, I would like to recommend the thing that we mention on this show a lot. And that is… you should expect that a baby’s gonna poop in your bathtub. And that you will get into that bathtub later yourself. [Laughs.] 

00:34:37

Heidi

Guest

Oh, that’s the least of it, honey! And Emma would not push correctly during delivery. She was pushing entirely with her face because she didn’t wanna poop!

00:34:50

Biz

Host

Poop. I’m like, “Honey, ya gonna poop.” 

00:34:52

Heidi 

Guest

Her husband—I’m like, “Are you serious? If you don’t push like you’re pooping, you will get nowhere!” And in fact she got nowhere. So I’m just saying—you will poop when [inaudible] your baby. Your baby will poop everywhere. And I—

00:35:07

Crosstalk

Crosstalk

Biz: Poop is the least!

Heidi: Eric always took care of the poop.

00:35:10

Heidi 

Guest

I always did the puke. Division of labor. And blood was definitely his department. 

00:35:15

Biz 

Host

We were always the “I’m in charge of what goes in; you’re in charge of what goes out.”

00:35:20

Heidi 

Guest

Goes out. Fair.

00:35:22

Biz 

Host

Alright. Heidi, again, thanks for joining us. We’re gonna make sure that we link everyone up to all of the foundational and advocacy work that you are doing and how people can get involved, as well as to just all of the different things that What to Expect When You’re Expecting has led to.

00:35:42

Heidi 

Guest

Well I would say everybody posts a bump, past or present, on Bump Day, July 20^th. And—or a bump you love! Post your mom’s bump!

00:35:52

Biz 

Host

That’s a wonderful idea. Thank you so much.

00:35:54

Heidi 

Guest

Thank you!

00:35:56

Music

Music

“Ones and Zeroes” by “Awesome.” Steady, driving electric guitar with drum and woodwinds.

[Music fades out.]

00:36:14

Music

Promo

Cheerful ukulele and whistling plays in background.

00:36:15

Biz 

Promo

It’s MaxFunDrive. It’s MaxFunDrive! It’s MaxFunDrive. This is the time to support One Bad Mother and MaxFun. Right now, you can go to MaximumFun.org/join and become a new member right now. MaximumFun.org/join, you can become a new member, you can upgrade, and you can boost your current membership. MaximumFun.org/join. Right now. Don’t wait. You’re not gonna have another time today to do it, so just do it. Like, right now. Do it right now and then get on social media and say, “Biz, I did it!” And then I will honk. Because you’re doing it. [Laughs.] Thank you.

[Music fades out.]

00:37:05

Theresa

Host

Hey, you know what it’s time for! This week’s genius and fails! This is the part of the show where we share our genius moment of the week, as well as our failures, and feel better about ourselves by hearing yours. You can share some of your own by calling 206-350-9485. That’s 206-350-9485.

00:37:25

Biz 

Host

Genius fail time. Genius me, me! 

00:37:29

Clip

Clip

[Dramatic, swelling music in background.]

Biz: Wow! Oh my God! Oh my God! I saw what you did! Oh my God! I’m paying attention! Wow! You, mom, are a genius. Oh my God, that’s fucking genius!

00:37:43

Biz 

Host

Okay. I will! [Laughs.] Easter happened! At the end of the whole Easter experience, it was like… my parents, who now live here, were here. My sister and brother-in-law were here. My brother-in-law’s cousin Jim—possibly a cousin that—we just, y’know, call everybody a cousin. And Stefan’s parents. Were all here. And we were all on the porch—‘cause we have a porch—it’s the only reason we have this house is we wanted that porch—everybody sitting on the porch having a wonderful time. And that night I was tucking Ellis in and I said, y’know, “Even before I had kids—when it was just me and your papa—I had this vision of kids running around and the family being together and talking and laughing and sharing food and music, and today… I got to have that! Today that finally happened.” And to me that’s a genius. That eventually—[Laughs.] Things came to pass that I’d always wanted. And realizing that it was something really awesome, I think, is a genius. So there ya go.

00:38:59

Caller

Caller

[Answering machine beeps.] 

Hi. I am calling in with a genius. So y’know how your kid loves a food and so you buy a lot of it and then your kid doesn’t love that food anymore automatically? 

[Biz laughs.] 

That is how it has been with the oranges in our house? And I happened to get a bag of oranges on grocery pickup that had Paw Patrol characters on the bag? Which is huge in our house. But of course the oranges [through laughter] don’t have Paw Patrol characters on them, which is what my three-year-old assumed and was very disappointed that the oranges themselves were not Paw Patrol. But when I was packing her lunch the next morning, I remembered that we have Paw Patrol temporary tattoos from the dollar store, and so I cut one out and I put it on the orange and it worked perfectly. You can put temporary tattoos on oranges. And I assume bananas? I don’t know. I haven’t tried other peelable fruits.

[Biz laughs.] 

But we have been putting temporary tattoos on oranges the last couple days, and my kid has been eating oranges. Genius. You’re all doing a good job. Bye.

00:40:07

Biz 

Host

This… is so good. [Laughs.] This is so genius! Yes. There is a genius in the initial choice of putting the Paw Patrol tattoos on. But I can see this evolving into like… now I kinda wanna go out and just find weird and strange temporary tattoos? That are like, “You’re doing it!” or like, “Bananas are naked under here!” Right? Like, whatever—yeah. Those are really popular temporary tattoos. But you know what I’m saying. There might be a day when they’re in high school or middle school and they just need a little extra-extra, and you should never tell them it’s a tattoo. You should never tell them that. You should let them just think that you have the ability to find the coolest oranges or bananas at the grocery store. I love this. This is such a good idea. You are doing a great job. Failures.

00:41:09

Clip

Clip

[Dramatic orchestral music plays in the background.]

Theresa: [In a voice akin to the Wicked Witch of the West] Fail. Fail. Fail. FAIL!

[Timpani with foot pedal engaged for humorous effect.]

Biz: [Calmly] You suck!

00:41:15

Biz 

Host

Fail me, me. Okay. We can never remember where we hid at least one egg. Ever! Ever, ever. And I’m gonna let you guys just… ponder that. And what it will be like as the temperature begins to really warm here in sunny Southern California. I have a feeling we’ll find the egg one day. But in the meantime, we don’t know where it is. [Laughs.] 

00:41:47

Caller

Caller

[Answering machine beeps.] 

Hey, Biz! This is a fail. Oh. So I joined an online mommy’s group that is not an OBM group. I love my online OBM moms, but I needed to have some in-person moms because my husband and I need friends and we don’t have—we don’t have friends anymore. We—whatever. Long story.

[Biz laughs.] 

But we don’t have friends. Certainly no friends with kids. People that we know with kids we were just starting to try and hang out with and then the pandemic happened. And everything is chaos. So we’ve got a three-year-old and a one-year-old and my husband and I end up having prolonged and weird conversations with random people in the grocery store because we don’t have friends. So I joined a mommy group. And I work, so I can’t go to most of the meetups and I was all excited about a pizza in the park thing. And I told my husband that it was gonna be Friday at four o’clock and I was gonna pick up the kids early from daycare. I was gonna quit working a little early and we were gonna go have pizza in the park and we were so excited at the idea of me maybe making mommy friends and our kids having friends and the possibility that we could have coupled friends that have kids, just like—this is something that we have not yet experienced! And we were really excited. 

And then… this morning I realized that it is not today. It is April 29^th. I have no idea why I thought it was April 1^st. I have no idea. I don’t know if the date changed or if I… I don’t know. I don’t know, but it’s not today. So it’s another month from now, and I’m just sad. And so I just wanted to call and hear your voice, because… my OBMs are really keeping me going and they’re amazing and wonderful and you’re wonderful and I love you and I’m just… sad. So. I love you. You’re doing a really good job and I am fucking everything up. Bye! 

00:44:03

Biz 

Host

No, you are not fucking everything up. But you are sad. [Laughs.] Of course you’re sad! Of course you’re sad! This is like the worst category of fails. The hopeful anticipation of something nice. We don’t take a lot of risks sometimes. And then we see an opportunity. We decide we’re gonna try it. And we put all the emotion—it’s not just the like scheduling effort and all that. There is an emotional effort that we are putting out there to make this happen. Expectations are being set. And when we realize that it is wrong… that is a punch in the gut. Okay? I am—I am that—I am just very sorry. That is a fail. And I—[Laughs.] I see you. And you can never fail your One Bad Mother community. No matter how hard you try. Well, let’s don’t make that a challenge. I’m so sorry! You’re doing a horrible job! [Laughs.] 

00:45:12

Music

Music

“Mom Song” by Adira Amram. Mellow piano music with lyrics.

You are the greatest mom I’ve ever known.

I love you, I love you.

When I have a problem, I call you on the phone.

I love you, I love you.

[Music fades out.]

00:45:38

Biz 

Host

One Bad Mother is supported in part by you! Did I mention it’s MaxFunDrive? It’s MaxFunDrive! Let’s talk goals and gifts. One Bad Mother is hoping to hit our goal of new or upgrading or boosting members. Our goal is 500. We are hoping to get 500 new members, upgrading members, or boosting members. If you haven’t become a member yet, maybe this is the year that you can! The very first membership level is just $5 a month! Can One Bad Mother be your Starbucks order once a month? [Laughs.] Plus, for $5 you get really, like… ten years’ of bonus shows that only members get access to. That is a lot of listening! It is a lot of content. A lot. If you’re already a member, maybe this is the year that you could upgrade. From like $5 to $10 a month. 

This year, MaxFun teamed up with a MaxFun fan, Merritt Bondaroo from Frog & Toad Press, who designed a bunch of really cool, unique, embroidered patches. There’s one for every show. And our show’s patch is very reminiscent of an old-school, like, heart tattoo. Y’know with the banner that would say “Mom” but instead it says “One Bad Mother”? It’s very hardcore. Plus, at that level you get your own letterpress MaxFun membership card. Ideal for flashing should anyone doubt your podcast bona fides. And of course you get all the bonus content! You can also become a member at the $20 level or $35 level of higher. Each level offers a series of amazing gifts. And you will know that you are making One Bad Mother happen. 

Now, listen. As I said, we want to hit our goal of 500. And if we do… I will get… a One Bad Mother patch—the one that they’ve made this year—I will get that tattooed on my arm. That is right. This is my ultimate goal, like, if we do this, I will—and ten years! This is a celebration of ten MaxFunDrives! This is a celebration of One Bad Mother. This is a celebration of permanently marring my skin forever. Like making One Bad Mother more a part of me than I have ever made it before. So listen. Getting to that goal, everything counts towards it. New memberships count towards it. Upgrading memberships count towards it. Boosting counts towards it. Make sure you’re following us on Instagram and over at Facebook and on Twitter, and we’re gonna be talking about all the other goals that we are setting and all the other goal prizes we are setting and other activities and events. It’s just two weeks of really needing to be tuned in if you can. You guys are amazing. 

Now it is time to listen to a mom have a breakdown.

00:49:08

Caller

Caller

Okay. This is a rant. I have a four-and-a-half-month old, and she’s perfect. She’s sitting right here next to me, and honestly you might hear her start crying while I rant about this. But she—she’s so sweet. All day long. Right now I’m staying home with her. I haven’t gone back to work. And she’s started to get introduced to friends and family and all that kinda stuff? And I’ve noticed that I’ve apologized for my child. I say, “I’m sorry” when she cries or “I’m sorry” if she doesn’t like being held by another person. Why do we do that? Why—why do we do that? Why do we apologize for our babies? Our babies are babies! They’re gonna cry! They’re gonna cry when someone else holds them that they’ve literally never seen in their entire lives. They’re gonna cry at the store because they’re just not feeling being at the store! 

And I just got back from Target. It’s our first time going to Target. And she started crying in the checkout line, which is fine. She’s a baby. And I turned to the person behind me and I said, “I’m sorry.” And immediately when I did it, I thought to myself, “Why do I feel like I have to apologize for my child? She’s a baby. We all just need to stop apologizing for our babies.” I think that’s the end of my rant. You guys are awesome. I’ve been binge-listening since I started maternity leave. [Laughs.] She just smiled at me. I’ve been binge-listening since I started maternity leave four-and-a-half months ago and it’s, y’know, this show’s gotten me through all the things. The highs and the lows and it’s made me laugh and cry and I just really appreciate you guys. Alright. Rant over.

00:50:51

Biz 

Host

Oh my god. You are doing such a great job. Why do we apologize? Well, one of the reasons is probably because people fucking hate kids. [Laughs.] We live in a culture that’s like, “Do you have kids? Oh! Gross! Why would you bring them to a coffee shop?! Why would you even leave your house? A plane? Babies don’t have to get from A to B! That’s crazy!” Right? Sometimes you apologize before anything even happens, right? You get on the plane, “I just wanna pre-empt—I’m so sorry. I am so sorry. There will be a smell that comes from our area. One of my kids might just vomit. Everywhere. And screaming? For sure. That’s gonna happen.” 

And like… I’m with you! We gotta stop it! Babies exist in the world! Kids exist in the world! They are loud. They’re messy. Sometimes they are absolutely hilarious. And amazing. But y’know? You’re probably gonna get your seat kicked in the back at least once. You’re going to go to a restaurant where children are. And I think we have just been sort of programmed to consider… our kids more inconveniences to others. I mean, look. Don’t get me wrong. I am happy to make a choice when I go out on my own? Or it’s just me and Stefan? I am happy to request that I sit farther away from children. [Laughs.] Because I know kids are gonna be kids! And that is 100% fine! Right? 

And then there are other days where I’ll go into a place and I’ll see kids and I wanna go sit right next to them! But you are correct. Why are we apologizing? We should stop apologizing. This plays into so many of the different things that we beat ourselves up for and we judge ourselves for. And it just really brings home the idea that we need to stop feeling like shit for being a parent. 

You’re doing a really good job. And I really appreciate you bringing this question up. And it’s gonna be a process that many of us will have to work through. But I think it’s also really helpful for others to hear it, because we can be more mindful of how we are responding and treating and, y’know, reacting to people who have kids. Right? “Don’t apologize!” Just yell that at people. “Don’t apologize! I know what a kid is!” [Laughs.] “I’ve seen children before! I watched a TV show.” You are doing a great job. 

00:53:37

Biz 

Host

Guys? [Sighs.] You’re all doing an amazing job. It’s MaxFunDrive. It is never easy for me to ask for support. If you’ve listened to this show for a long time, you might’ve picked up on that. Asking for help, asking for support, is something that I work on getting better at doing. And I will readily admit that being part of this community has helped me get past some of those natural tendencies to not ask for help when it comes to many aspects of parenting. But for these two weeks, during the MaxFunDrive, this is where I am really coming to you and asking for your support. I love making this show. I love the community that has come out of this show. I love laughing with you guys. I love the calls. I love the genius moments and the fails and the rants. I’m very precious about them. I don’t let anybody else help me with those, because these are our stories that we’re sharing with each other! And I… I find great joy in doing this? And I would really be honored if I could continue doing this. And your support? Makes that happen. 

If you haven’t become a member yet, today is a great day to do it. You can start as low as $5 a month. It really is a cup of coffee. And you’re getting all this content and I just—$5! $5! It makes a huge difference in making this show, and it also makes this show free and available for people who this year might not be able to support it. And I really wanna say that we have got [through laughter] one of the greatest communities of show supporters. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate the support that has been shown. If this is a year where you can upgrade your membership, that would mean a tremendous amount. 

And they now have this cool thing called “boosting,” so let’s say that you are a $10 a month supporter of the show. You can boost it for a dollar. And become $11 a month. Like, the boosting is so great. And all of those different ways of supporting go towards us trying to make our goal of 500 new, upgrading, or boosting supporters. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much, Please make sure to be following social media. [Laughs.] This is the time of year I come back on social media, full blast! ‘Cause it’s a fun way for us to connect and you’ll be up to date on all of the cool things that we are planning for these two weeks, as well as how we’re doing on trying to make our goal. So go to MaximumFun.org/join right now. Support One Bad Mother. Support the podcasts that Maximum Fun puts out. This is the time to do it. Lots of cool stuff happening. Thank you. Thank you guys. You’re doing an amazing job. And I will talk to you next week. Bye!

00:57:13

Music

Music

“Mama Blues” by Cornbread Ted and the Butterbeans. Strumming acoustic guitar with harmonica and lyrics.

I got the lowdown momma blues

Got the the lowdown momma blues

Gots the lowdown momma blues

The lowdown momma blues. 

Gots the lowdown momma blues

Got the lowdown momma blues

You know that’s right.

[Music fades.]

00:57:37

Biz 

Host

We’d like to thank MaxFun; our producer, Gabe Mara; our husbands, Stefan Lawrence and Jesse Thorn; our perfect children, who provide us with inspiration to say all these horrible things; and of course, you, our listeners. To find out more about the songs you heard on today’s podcast and more about the show, please go to MaximumFun.org/onebadmother. For information about live shows, our book and press, please check out OneBadMotherPodcast.com.

00:58:05

Theresa

Host

One Bad Mother is a member of the Maximum Fun family of podcasts. To support the show go to MaximumFun.org/join.

[Music resumes for a while before fading out.]

00:58:28

Music

Transition

A cheerful ukulele chord.

00:58:29

Speaker 1

Guest

MaximumFun.org.

00:58:31

Speaker 2

Guest

Comedy and culture.

00:58:32

Speaker 3

Guest

Artist owned—

00:58:33

Speaker 4

Guest

—Audience supported.