TRANSCRIPT One Bad Mother Episode 437: What I Don’t Know About ADHD Could Fill A Podcast, with Dr. Norrine Russell

00:00:00

Biz

Host

Hi. I’m Biz.

00:00:01

Theresa

Host

And I’m Theresa.

00:00:03

Biz

Host

Due to the pandemic, we bring you One Bad Mother straight from our homes—including such interruptions as: children! Animal noises! And more! So let’s all get a little closer while we have to be so far apart. And remember—we are doing a good job.

00:00:20

Music

Music

“Summon the Rawk” by Kevin MacLeod. Driving electric guitar and heavy drums.

[Continues through dialogue.]

00:00:25

Biz

Host

This week on One Bad Mother—what I don’t know about ADHD could fill a podcast! We talk to Dr. Norrine Russell about supporting differently-wired kids. Plus, Biz has a birthday coming upppp!

00:00:39

Crosstalk

Crosstalk

Biz and caller: Wooo!

[Biz laughs.] 

00:00:42

Caller

Caller

So my two kids, who are eighteen months and four and a bit, are in the Moderna vaccine trial. And oh, is it a lot of work! Every time they have a runny nose; every time they have a cough; every time they have a fever I have to call them and I have to take them in and I have to get it checked and I have to get swabbed and have to fill out a log and oh my goodness. Anybody who doubts what they go through to make these vaccines does not know what they’re talking about. But anyway.

[Biz laughs.] 

Today was their last blood draw for it. They’re in the cohort that is three blood draws and today was the last one, and I took them both myself and it took almost two hours and it was super long ‘cause their nurse called in sick and there is a nurse shortage, which I know ‘cause I’m a nurse, too. So we were there for two hours for what should’ve taken probably half an hour. And we were in a little tiny exam room and I hadn’t brought enough things for them to do. But. I got through it. They both screamed and cried when they got their blood drawn, and the little one wanted to be held by me ‘cause he was upset that his brother was screaming and crying when his brother was getting his blood drawn, so it was just—ugh! Such a mess. But I got through it. And now I’m gonna go make cookies with my mom. And then I have just a unicorn of an afternoon in that I don’t have anyone at home with me, so I can—I dunno. Do laundry or something. So just wanted to call and check in and say I am doing a great job today, and so are you. Thank you for the show. Bye. 

00:02:10

Biz

Host

Boiiing! I think my eyes just popped out of my head. Okay. I got a list. One, you are doing a great job. Good lord, you are doing a great job! Two, thank you for being a nurse. Thank you. That’s a lot of work. And probably grotesquely underappreciated. So thank you. And you are part of the Moderna vaccine trial? Thank you! You’re—I—[sighs.] I truly thank you, and I truly thank your kids who probably don’t understand how important what they’re doing is. I just—I’m—that sounds like a ridiculous amount of work, on top of all the other things that are work. So I see you. I am glad you had a afternoon free of people in your house. You deserve that. You fill it with anything you like. If laundry is totally your bag, then go for it. If laying down in the fetal position on the couch watching something awful and stupid is also your bag? I hope you did that, too. Good job. You’re just wonderful. You’re wonderful! Thank you! 

Speaking of wonderful—it’s time for thank-you’s!

00:03:27

Music

Music

Heavy electric guitar and driving percussion overlaid with “Ohh, oh-oh, oh-oh” and “Hey-ey-ey-ey-ey-ey” lyrics.

00:03:42

Biz

Host

Alright. We are just a week or so into January. Following winter break. And I don’t know where you are in the country as you listen to this show, but I guarantee you there was a moment where you panicked that school would not start again. And in some cases, it didn’t start. And in other cases, it started, but you’re like, “Should it have started?” [Laughs.] “Did we deliberate?” And then other times it was like, “We’re gonna start, but—surprise!—we’re gonna start three days later than—” Or “We’re gonna start, but you’re gonna have to get some testing.” Or “It’s gonna start, and we’re gonna provide testing, but only one location for the entire district, so don’t make any plans that day except to sit.” And that’s just with school! 

Work? Ugh! This happened with work and offices and all sorts of things. This was not a relaxing end to winter break. Biz, where are yo going with this? Okay. Well here’s where I’m going with this. [Laughs.] One, I wanna give a big thank you to the people out there testing for COVID. This is a thankless job. You are either sticking something up somebody’s nose and swabbing it around—which, let’s all be honest, that used to be something that you would’ve found highly personal and only done in the privacy of your doctor’s office. Maybe even a specialist. Now, we just line up on the corner. I mean, on the corner. If there’s a little pop-up tent. And just let people stick it right up our nose! Or we do it ourselves! And these wonderful people have to watch us swab it around. “One. Two. Three. Four—” and I’m like, “I count faster than that. I don’t wanna wait to get to seven.” And then they take your swab and they put it in the little tube and they label it and they—like, it is… amazing to me that this actually happens. Every day. Multiple times a day. So thank you to everybody who is collecting COVID tests. I appreciate you a lot. 

Thank you, teachers. You came back! I appreciate it. And if you didn’t come back, well, I gotta tell ya—you—I’m gonna guess that you had some reasons and I support those reasons, because you have the right to be safe in your school just as much as our kids do. So—whichever way it fell, wherever you are in the world, thank you. Because it is a lot we expect from you. And I really appreciate you. 

As always, thank you to everyone in the medical profession. Wow. We didn’t make it a relaxing holiday. Sorry about that. You are wonderful, and I appreciate you. And hey—travel people responsible for helping you get from A to B? Wow. What a herd of Omicron-breathing, nose-picking, unhappy—unhappy! Unhappy people! Just came tearing right through your bus stations, your airports, in your Ubers or your cabs—wherever. Thank you for not just shutting the doors in our faces. I appreciate that. 

Everybody? I just encourage us all to run around thanking people. Just—there’s a huge list of people I’m not thanking. Even though I’m thanking them every time I walk down the street. So thank you, everyone who’s making the day-to-day even remotely possible during what is still a pandemic. [Laughs.] [Sighs.] Oh.

00:07:39

Biz 

Host

Speaking of things that never go away, I’m getting older. [Laughs.] I liked that joke. Gabe just gave me kind of a look. Okay, thank you, Gabe. My birthday—I can remember—I’ve been doing this show a while, guys. I can remember when I was like, [singing] “Ya think you’re 36 but you’re 42!” When I used to sing that little song on the show. Now I’m just about to be 48. [Laughs.] There’s no song. There’s no song. I’m gonna save the next song for 50. Will I ring in 50 on One Bad Mother? Is that how—is this where we’re going? Oh, man, that’s gonna become a different show. So I’m excited. 

I am happy to announce that I am in a place where birthdays aren’t ruined anymore by myself. Y’know. Being like, “I don’t know what I wanna do. I don’t know! I don’t care! I can’t think of anything to ask for.” I can think of things now, and I’ve made lists, and I’ve sent those lists out and about to the people who may potentially purchase things off that list. My birthday falls on a Thursday. Not gonna do anything special. ‘Cause it’s a Thursday. And that’s okay. And I’m not longing to do anything special. Why? Because I’ve been trapped in this house for a really long time with my family and I don’t need to make that any more special than it already is. So happy birthday to me! I think the gift that I’m getting this year is that I am no longer floundering in birthdays. Like, I’m comfortable that I have a birthday. I feel like I’m in a place where I am not going to be disappointed one way or the other. I just am very happy with where I am. Today. 48 is a fine age. I’ll always be younger than my sister. [High-pitched, syrupy voice] Love you, Helen Michelle! [Regular voice] Speaking of excitement and big feelings, today we are going to be talking with Dr. Norrine Russell about ADHD. I have a lot to learn. [Laughs.] 

00:09:51

Music

Music

Banjo strums; cheerful banjo music continues through dialogue.

00:09:52

Theresa

Host

Please—take a moment to remember: If you’re friends of the hosts of One Bad Mother, you should assume that when we talk about other moms, we’re talking about you.

00:09:59

Biz

Host

If you are married to the host of One Bad Mother, we definitely are talking about you.

00:10:03

Theresa

Host

Nothing we say constitutes professional parenting advice.

00:10:06

Biz

Host

Biz and Theresa’s children are brilliant, lovely, and exceedingly extraordinary.

00:10:10

Theresa

Host

Nothing said on this podcast about them implies otherwise.

[Banjo music fades out.] 

[Biz and her guest repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss the weekly topic.]

00:10:17

Biz

Host

This week, I am very excited to be speaking to Dr. Norrine Russell, who began Russell Coaching in 2009. Her passion for providing support to frustrated students and wary parents is fueled by her own experience of raising two complex children who are both neurologically atypical. With 20 years of experience creating positive youth development and parenting education programs, Dr. Russell has extensive knowledge of child development, learning styles, special needs, and positive parenting philosophies. She blends this knowledge to provide students and parents with comprehensive support and the tools they need to grow and thrive. Welcome—I’m gonna say “Dr. Russell” and then I’m shifting to “Norrine.” [Laughs.] 

00:11:02

Norrine Russell

Guest

Good. I’m very glad to hear that. Yes. No need to stand on ceremony. We’re not going to be formal. I don’t think that’s in keeping with the show, is it?

00:11:09

Biz

Host

No. [Laughs.] 

[Norrine laughs.] 

So you’ve heard it! Anyway. Welcome, welcome. Before we get into all the things I don’t know about anything, I would like to know—who lives in your house?

00:11:22

Reema

Host

I think that maybe the most interesting response to this is… what lives at my house.

00:11:28

Biz

Host

Ooooh!

00:11:29

Reema

Host

So I did not know you asked this question? But immediately—

[Biz laughs.] 

—I have to say that what lives at my house is a perpetual state of broken items—

[Biz laughs.] 

—half-eaten items, and lost items. So. I think every parent can relate to that? But especially parents of kids who are differently-wired. Yeah, I think I can say this. The people who live at my house—

[Biz laughs.] 

—are my husband, a man. My two children, a boy and a girl. They are 13 and 11, respectively. One dog. We’re sounding pretty normal so far, aren’t we?

00:12:12

Biz

Host

What’s the dog’s gender? [Laughs.] 

00:12:13

Reema

Host

Oh! Yes. Well, that is—that is a hot topic at our house these days. 

[Biz laughs.] 

It certainly is. But I believe that the dog is… a neutered female. We have not heard otherwise.

00:12:30

Biz

Host

Okay. Fair enough.

00:12:31

Reema

Host

Yeah. But we do—we have many conversations currently with two middle-school children about gender, sexual orientation, and in some cases I have been fortunate to get a daily update over Christmas break about my children’s thinking about these issues. So. 

00:12:49

Biz

Host

That’s wonderful!

00:12:50

Reema

Host

Yeah! Thank god for Theresa!

00:12:52

Biz

Host

I know, right? Thank god for Theresa! Seriously. Anyway. Go ahead. [Laughs.] 

00:12:59

Reema

Host

Okay. So we were sounding pretty normal there, and then—now, right now, we only have three cats.

00:13:06

Biz

Host

Oh! I have three cats! 

00:13:08

Reema

Host

I don’t think that’s very reassuring to me. 

00:13:12

Biz

Host

Oh, yeah, no. Especially since I just freaked out and bought all new cat box—cat litter, everything, because my father informed me I smelled like a cat the other day. Our old cat is not well. Anyway. Alright. Three cats and a dog. Now that was my childhood, and look at me. Here I am. I wanna get in to some of the work that you do. And I wanna start—you—you do do a lot of things. And a lot of those things. And you have experience in a lot of areas. I would like to ask you specifically about ADHD. That has been sort of a diagnosis that’s been around probably… well, I’ll ask you—how long has that diagnosis been around? 

00:14:00

Reema

Host

Well it’s had many different names. But I think the recognition of the fundamental problem of dysregulation has been around at least forty years.

00:14:10

Biz

Host

Yeah. Okay. That sounds about right. Because I think I started hearing about it in my universe as I was leaving high school. Right? As I was—right? So everybody’s little sibling or I’d go to camp and be a counselor and you’d start to hear that going around. So I’ve just allowed myself to go for years sort of making up what I think it is, based on, y’know, what I’ve seen on TV or heard from friends and, y’know, rumors. And because it hasn’t— [Laughs.] It hasn’t crept into my house yet, despite how many people look at my youngest. Anyway. What is… ADHD? 

00:14:56

Reema

Host

Okay. I have the answer to this, but we are gonna do your listeners such a great service today. 

[Biz gasps.]

We’re gonna talk about what are the requirements to receive a diagnosis of ADHD, and then we are also gonna talk about—what is the real impairment of ADHD? Okay?

00:15:19

Biz

Host

Thank you! Thank you!

00:15:20

Reema

Host

In order to receive an ADHD diagnosis, there are three criteria. One is trouble focusing. Being distracted. Having a hard time staying tuned into what you’re supposed to be tuned into. Now. Oh my gosh. The myths we could go on and on about. Many parents—many citizens of our esteemed, well-educated country—believe this means that if a child can pay attention to anything, they don’t have ADHD. But. We’re gonna talk about that in one minute.

00:15:58

Biz

Host

Okay, good. ‘Cause I have the opposite question of that, which is—what kid can sit still? [Laughs.] 

00:16:05

Reema

Host

Oh, yes. Well that is also true. Right. Right.

00:16:08

Biz

Host

Keep going. Sorry. Yeah.

00:16:09

Reema

Host

Okay. So. Criteria number one: trouble focusing. ‘K. Criteria number two: impulsivity. ‘K? Criteria three—which sometimes is in existence and sometimes isn’t—is: hyperactivity. Which can be physical or verbal. 

00:16:27

Biz

Host

Ohhh!

00:16:28

Reema

Host

Now. You raise an interesting question. Aren’t we all, at times, right? 

00:16:34

Biz

Host

And I wanna say that prefacing that this is one of those times I’m stepping in it. Because to say that is very dismissive, and… there’s that whole lackadaisical, “I haven’t had kids yet, I haven’t been around kids yet” or y’know, it’s the “I’ll never give my child an iPad.” And now, y’know. Right? We all go through it. But this is one of those areas where it was like, “Aren’t they all just drugging our children out of—” Right? Okay. So let’s—take me through it. 

00:17:06

Reema

Host

Right. So. What we know is that of course every human being—every human brain—can be distracted at times. But! Thanks to the knowledge gleaned over years—decades—of research, we know what is sort of the normative or “typical” ability to attend to things. We know what is the “typical” ability to control impulses. And to—for example—we’re gonna go right there—to sit in a seat at school. Now, that’s where we gauge, “Does the child have ADHD?” Because if the child really does not meet those roughly age-appropriate expectations and if those symptoms cause problems—right? They cause impairment—that’s when there’s a disorder. The mere fact that you got distracted today does not create a disorder. But a systemic, ongoing inability to pay attention when you want to pay attention—when you should be paying attention—when you’re trying, if you will, to pay attention? That is a disorder. So I think it’s complicated for people because there’s not this sort of nuance with cancer or a broken bone. Right? You have it, you don’t.

00:18:37

Biz

Host

It's broken! 

00:18:38

Reema

Host

Right?

00:18:39

Biz

Host

Right! Yeah! [Laughs.] 

00:18:41

Reema

Host

But we did really create this same problem with anxiety. Right? As a generation of parents, we got phobic of any anxiety. Right? And we failed to differentiate normal feelings of tension, stress, anxiety, from an anxiety disorder. And we all huddled around our children and said, “We don’t ever want them to have any anxiety!” And so there are parallels to other problems. And one can also have things like borderline high blood pressure, where there is a standard there and you could fall kind of right on the cusp of it. Now. More helpful, I think, is to think about this the way Russell Barkley explains it. And many people in the field of pediatrics, psychiatry, psychology, have adopted this. ADHD is not a problem of not being able to focus your attention. It is a problem where the brain does not automatically regulate attention. So I don’t know. I can’t speak for you. I’ve listened to a couple of your podcasts. Y’know. I don’t know. But right now? My brain has automatically tuned into this podcast. My brain is not distracted, even though right outside my window there’s often a family of cardinals. And right on my desk is a bag of pretzel M&Ms. And right on my desk is my phone with the unfinished New York Times crossword puzzle. But my brain is automatically regulating my attention. The problem in people who have ADHD is that their brain doesn’t automatically regulate the attention. And there’s really no amount of trying to pay attention that works on a long-term, consistent basis. So it’s not so much—people think, “Oh. Kids or people with ADHD can’t pay attention.” It really is a problem of self-regulation and brain regulation. Does that distinction make sense?

00:20:49

Biz

Host

Yes! [Laughs.] That description was incredibly helpful! When it came to understanding how our brain—like, what it means to have our brains regulate our focus. And where our attention is. That leads me to a question—is there one ADHD, or are there different levels? I mean—I feel like there are lots of spectrums out there when it comes to a variety of ways that we can be wired differently. Does that apply to ADHD or is it just one thing? [Laughs.] 

00:21:26

Reema

Host

Right. So I will say that I think it’s less spectrum-y than something, for example, like autism. Where if you’ve met one child with autism, you’ve met one child with autism. Right? 

00:21:40

Biz

Host

Right. [Laughs.] 

00:21:41

Reema

Host

Now. I’m not sure who, in their infinite wisdom, decided that we should get rid of the diagnostic labels of ADD versus ADHD. And move to the diagnostic label of ADHD, with or without hyperactivity.

00:21:58

Biz

Host

Ohhh. Okay.

00:22:01

Reema

Host

You can see how this could be confusing for people. Like—and so many, many parents still make a point of telling me, “They have ADD. They’re not hyperactive.” So there is, I think, very much a clear understanding that there are different presentations? Y’know, you have that ADHD that has the hyperactivity that can be physical hyperactivity, restlessness, or verbal. And then there is a presentation of what we still do call ADHD that is more inattentive. And often, those kids—and this is not well-established yet in the literature—have sort of a sluggish cognitive tempo. In other words, their brain just kinda slugs through information really slowly. And so I’m wondering—and wishing I could tell the future—are we gonna end up with two different diagnostic labels, one that includes the hyperactivity where there is this sort of racing element, and one that describes a more inattentive, sluggish cognitive tempo. I’m not sure.

00:23:19

Biz

Host

That’s interesting. Because I have friends as adults—I feel like there’s this wave of adults who are suddenly discovering that they have ADHD, and it is—like, it just suddenly makes everything make more sense and they don’t feel like they were, y’know, however they felt coming out of it. And focus is a big one. And then the other was—I had this friend and she and I can take in the same information, and the way my brain works it’s already, “Buh, buh, buh, buh, buh.” For her, she gets there, but she needs to look at it from a variety of different—it’s just—it’s a river. It’s a nice river? While mine is a water gun fight. Right? [Laughs.] I’m not sure who—y’know, we both have it good and bad when it comes to that. So hearing that sluggishness… that is an interesting addition to what I know of as ADHD. Is there—here’s an obnoxious question. “Do you fix it?” How do you like—god, that is the worst question I could ask. You’re welcome, everybody! But like… is it… is there one way to—I know there’s medication, and I also know that there’s sort of practices. Like, learning… different… practices of how to approach things. Yeah. There ya go. That was kind of a question. 

00:24:58

Reema

Host

Okay. So if I give you the answer to that question, can we… insert it into every American parent’s head?

00:25:07

Biz

Host

Yes! You’re welcome! We’ll start with five of us. [Laughs.] 

00:25:12

Reema

Host

Okay. Great. You know what? Here is something that I don’t think people know about ADHD. 

00:25:19

Biz

Host

Ooh! Okay.

00:25:21

Reema

Host

There are scientific practices—scientific best practices—for diagnosing and treating ADHD. That work. Most of the time, what parents get is this sort of—they get kind of handed what I call the ADHD menu. “Well, you could try lavender. Well you could try brain [inaudible]. Well you could try talking to—"

00:25:45

Biz

Host

Lavender? I just kind of love that somebody’s like, “You’re gonna get a lavender candle and we’re gonna play the most relaxing playlist and problems are all solved. All good. Five-year-old.” [Laughs.] 

00:26:00

Reema

Host

And if that doesn’t work, we’re gonna get you some kind of beeping, vibrating watch. Yeah.

00:26:04

Biz

Host

What is that supposed to do? Okay, never mind. Okay. Sorry. I’m not gonna—whatever. Let’s get back to the science.

00:26:10

Reema

Host

Okay. Science tell us very, very clearly that what children ages 4 through 21 need is multi-modal therapy. Okay? So—

00:26:27

Biz

Host

These are words.

00:26:28

Reema

Host

These are words.

00:26:29

Biz

Host

These are words. 

00:26:30

Reema

Host

Multi-modal therapy. We need more than one thing in order for your kid to have the best possible outcome. So. You need medication. Parent training and education.

00:26:45

Biz

Host

Ooh.

00:26:46

Reema

Host

And a school plan. And when they get to be teenagers, they need skills training. 

00:26:50

Biz

Host

Okay. Skills.

00:26:52

Reema

Host

Skills.

00:26:53

Biz

Host

Like study skills, like that kind of—like school skills or like life skills?

00:26:57

Reema

Host

Well… fancy people would call them “executive functioning skills.”

00:27:02

Biz

Host

Okay, thank you. Fancy. I am very fancy in my sweatshirt and bedroom slippers. So. Y’know. They have pom-poms on them, so they’re fancy slippers. Okay. I understand the three things you’ve just said. The medication, parenting education, school plan. With a little—with a little tag-on later in high school. I want us to shift to being a parent. Because you’ve just listed three things that, y’know, I’ll just be honest—it’s hard! It’s hard. Look, it’s hard, Norrine. We’re—sometimes you can’t even get through the day just trying to get a sandwich made. And when you’ve got kids that are more or wired differently and it’s just… I honestly—all children will slowly break your spirit. [Laughs.] But! Some are able to chip away at it a little faster. And so like… when I hear “parent education,” I love the thought of parent education. And it sounds like work! I also—in my best intentions… I’m very tired! And broken! So… I know that those are things I need to do. But I—how—how do you make me feel better? Because— [Laughs.] Because it’s really—it’s hard! It’s hard. It’s relentless. It’s tiring. It’s… it can feel like I’ve done something wrong or somehow it’s my fault or everybody’s judging. Everybody—y’know, I didn’t act. I should’ve acted. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Please fix parenting. 

00:28:43

Reema

Host

[Long pause.]

[Biz laughs.] 

Okay. Um—

[Biz laughs.] 

I’ve got a magic wand for that. I will say that I think one of the best antidotes to all of those demanding messages in our head that we sometimes hear from other people, but I think we often hear in our own heads. Is… becoming more educated. Right? Because if you understand that ADHD is primarily a genetically-passed-down condition, and that there is not much in how you eat or didn’t eat organic broccoli when you were pregnant. Or, y’know, where your surrogate lived during the last month of their pregnancy. Or if your child was adopted. Y’know? ADHD is a neurodevelopmental disorder. And so I truly believe that reading more about ADHD from high-quality, science-based sources, will help tremendously. And that alleviates, I think, so much of that noise in our head of, “Well what if I did this wrong or what if I did this wrong or I could just fix this or I should be able to” and it’s like, no! No! Friend, listen! The goddamn craziness of the ADHD is not going anywhere! The American Academy of Pediatrics says—very clearly—this is a chronic health condition and should be treated as such. Chronic health condition. So while it may give some people some—I don’t know—a little frisson of depression to say, “Listen, you’re going to deal with this until your kid is an adult.” I think it also gives us some peace of mind, and some clarity. Which I love the clarity compared to the noise.

00:30:44

Biz

Host

Actually, I—yeah. No, I agree. I do think it’s sort of like the adult who gets the diagnosis. Now I understand. Now I know. Now I’ve got something… to work with. There are less questions. I can find tools. I can find support. I can find community. And… I agree. I do think education and having the right language—I mean, going back to thanking Theresa, being introduced to language that I wasn’t aware of when it came to gender, has altered my life and the life of my family. And so having… having language is so… key. So… what do you think parents who come to you and parents who are experiencing this—what do you think they struggle with the most? And what do you think—like, how can they be supported? What can I say? What kind of flowers do they like? [Laughs.] 

00:31:45

Reema

Host

Which casserole do you send? 

00:31:47

Biz

Host

What pizza delivery do you need me to call for you tonight? [Laughs.] 

00:31:53

Reema

Host

Exactly. Exactly. Please send the food. 

00:31:57

Biz

Host

Right.

00:31:58

Reema

Host

I think that what parents wrestle with the most is… that—okay, and this is a terrible word, but this is the word that’s used so I’m gonna use it but then we’re gonna unpack it. The child’s performance. Or their behavior. Which—what we really are saying are, their symptoms are variable, day-to-day. So just like your kid with asthma could be wheezing horribly one day—maybe the air quality is poor. Maybe there are more allergens. Maybe they’re tired. There’s lots of reasons. And then the next day they could be perfectly free from wheezing. Right? This is the part that drives parents, teachers, pretty much anyone who interacts with a kid with ADHD, crazy. Because it’s like, “Well yesterday you were able to focus. Yesterday, you didn’t pull that boy’s hair. Yesterday, you didn’t jump off the slide and need sixteen stitches at my school.” Right? 

[Biz laughs.] 

“So why today? Pull it together! Pull it together! Just focus!”

00:33:09

Biz

Host

Come on, six-year-old! Focus! [Laughs.] 

00:33:12

Reema

Host

Right. Right. it is this inconsistency. And again, I think… there is so much wisdom out there—truly—in the field. And what people say is, ADHD is not a disorder of knowing. It is a disorder of doing. It is a disorder of self-regulation. If you asked my children, “Is it right or wrong to pour the glue all over the garage floor and then leave it?” Oh, they would absolutely tell you. “Oh yes, Miss Biz. That is the wrong thing to do, Miss Biz. And I should clean it up, Miss Biz. Yes.” 

[Biz laughs.] 

“Why did you do it?” “No effing clue.” Especially for my eleven-year-old, who loves swearing like her mama. “No effing clue, mom. No effing clue.” “Why did you ride the bike into the mailbox?” “I don’t know. I don’t know.” Because it was an impulse, right? The symptom of the disorder is impulsivity. The definition of impulsivity is doing things without thinking about it. Therefore, we as adults in these kids’ lives need to understand—there was no thinking about it! There was the symptom of impulsivity. And that is the part that I think drives parents crazy, because one day—or possibly for thirty minutes in one day—your kid is sitting there. “Oh, they’re reading. Oh, praise Allah. They’re reading.”

[Biz laughs.] 

“They’re playing nicely with their siblings.” Y’know, whatever. And then the next minute, they’re creating an entire mess in the kitchen or spilling glue in the garage. That inconsistency leads us to believe that if they tried harder, they could control it. And sometimes when we raise our voices and we yell and we make the consequences very dire, they can momentarily control it. But that’s not a fix, really. And so that’s the part that I think we as professionals don’t do a good enough job yet explaining to parents. Like, one day, one hour, one minute? They’re gonna look like their symptoms are out of control. And the next minute, you could see a child who looks like, “Oh, that child has ADHD? I don’t see it.” But that inconsistency is a hallmark of ADHD. 

So… I think that is the biggest piece that parents struggle with. Along with thinking—because this is, I think, in large part what the education system still believes—“Well, they’re not trying. They’re not motivated.” And if we look at what neurological research shows us, we know that the motivation center of the ADHD brain does not light up as strongly as in a neurotypical brain. I don’t know about you, Biz, but if my motivation center didn’t wake up and tell me, “Get your ass out of bed. Get dressed. Feed the children something. Could be cake.” Right? I’m not sure that I would wake up and do that. Right? Like, I’m—I need that neurological push, right? Am I conscious of it? No! I’m not conscious of it. But I think we really do ADHD kids—and especially teenagers—a disservice when we say they’re lazy.

00:36:35

Biz

Host

Yeah. I think… listening—listening to all you’ve just said, A, from a parenting perspective, that’s exhausting. That’s, like, pivot on 5,000. I mean, that’s just living in crisis mode all the time, almost. And that’s… that’s impossible. That’s really awful. I see you. [Laughs.] Sounds horrible. But then also… let’s say I’m a parent who’s finally accepted that this is— [Laughs.] This is the world I live in and that does not come easy. And isn’t something that happens overnight. If your support group—like your own parents or your own teachers—like, I can see that… you’re not disciplining enough. You’re not—they’re not trying hard enough. They’re lazy. Right? Like, that… sort of robbing parents of knowing what’s actually best for their kid or what they know? And I feel like that would just add a level of feeling unsupported for the—for parents. So I—wow. Clearly there’s not—a lot more I need to learn about this. So I wanna wrap up on something that doesn’t… break me more. How can we support ourselves and the people in our lives who are dealing with this and living with this?

00:38:03

Reema

Host

Okay. Can we hit repeat on this over and over again?

00:38:07

Biz

Host

Yes!

00:38:08

Reema

Host

These are the words. “Oh my gosh. Steven has ADHD. Oh my gosh. I just went to the doctor and I think Maddie has ADHD. Friend, mother, sister-in-law, fellow human being.” “Wow! That sounds like pretty significant news. Tell me more.”

00:38:26

Biz

Host

Woooo! Wait! Are you sure I shouldn’t then respond with all of these dumb things I’ve said already? Are you sure? Like, just coming from a place of not knowing anything. Are you sure? [Laughs.] Are you sure I shouldn’t say, “Oh, I really—” Say it again. Say it again so I can practice.

00:38:48

Reema

Host

“Wow. That sounds pretty significant.” You could use the word “important.” “That sounds pretty significant. Tell me more about that.”

00:38:58

Biz

Host

Okay. “That sounds really significant. Tell me more about that.” Okay. Alright. This is good. This is good! Oh, I love knowing things to say! 

00:39:10

Reema

Host

It’s as easy as that. And then you’re going to listen. Because remember, we listen in. The person who is of focus—those of us on the outside, we listen in. Right? You don’t get to talk if you’re not the expert and the person experiencing it. Right? You don’t get to share about the random lavender you bought. And so—

00:39:32

Biz

Host

Oof.

00:39:33

Reema

Host

“Tell me more about that. It sounds hard. Is it hard for you? What should I know, as your friend? What should I know, as your mom? What would be two or three helpful things for me to do?” 

00:39:51

Biz

Host

Oh my god. I love you. It’s so good! And I mean, I know we’re talking very specifically about this, but after doing this show for, y’know, essentially ten years—it’s so, “My child’s not sleeping through the night.” “Oh, try this.” As opposed to saying, “God, that sounds awful. Tell me more.” Or “How are you?” Or… “I see you.” These things—with our best intentions?—we can miss out on actually supporting the people we’re trying to support.

00:40:27

Reema

Host

I think that is what we want to do. And what people are trying to do when they offer up something they’ve heard or the story about the neighbor’s kid or anything. They are trying to say, “I want to connect with you about this.” But in their efforts to connect, they’re more talking at, instead of listening to. And it’s that listening to part and asking the right questions that I think is so vital. And I will say this is also true with school. When your child has a new teacher at school, or a new guidance counselor, let’s say you’re the teacher or the guidance counselor. The question that parents and caretakers want to be asked is, “How does ADHD affect your child? What would you like me to know about your child and their ADHD?” 

00:41:24

Biz

Host

Oof. This is so good. I appreciate you. [Laughs.] I appreciate you. And I appreciate you coming on and sharing this—I mean, what is just a fraction of the information that I am sure you could be sharing with us at this point. So I just wanna say… thank you. We will link everyone up to where they can find out more information about you, but I think as well any resources that you think would be helpful, we’d love to include. I also—you’ll—everybody go tot eh show notes! We’re going to quote—we’re gonna be quoting Norrine here on what to say. Where is that t-shirt, everybody? Thank you so much for joining us and for doing the work that you do. Thank you so much!

00:42:17

Reema

Host

Biz, it was great to be here with you. It really was. I told Theresa I was nervous about coming on, but what a delight to spend this time with you and to feel heard and seen in my work. So thank you.

00:42:29

Biz

Host

Alright! Have a wonderful New Year! And… enjoy all the things living in your house. [Laughs.] 

00:42:36

Reema

Host

Thank you! Alright. Happy New Year to you!

00:42:40

Biz

Host

Buh-bye.

00:42:41

Reema

Host

Buh-bye.

00:42:42

Music

Music

“Ones and Zeroes” by “Awesome.” Steady, driving electric guitar with drum and woodwinds.

[Music fades out.]

00:42:59

Music

Promo

Cheerful ukulele with whistling plays in background.

00:43:00

Biz

Promo

One Bad Mother is supported in part by Bombas. Bombas’s mission is simple—make the most comfortable clothes ever and match every item sold with an equal item donated. So when you buy Bombas? You are also giving to someone who’s in need. If there was an anthem of One Bad Mother, this would be it! One Bad Mother listeners? We need comfortable clothes. Don’t we? I especially need their socks. I love their socks so much, and they’ve got the most comfortable and amazing socks for kids as well. With the little grippies! So you don’t do the slippies! [Laughs.] And they last forever! And I love that for every item you buy, they will donate one to those who are in need. So go to Bombas.com/badmother and get 20% off any purchase. That’s B-O-M-B-A-S.com/badmother for 20% off. Bombas.com/badmother.

[Music fades out.]

00:44:10

Music

Promo

Inspirational keyboard music plays in background.

00:44:11

Biz

Promo

One Bad Mother is supported in part by Dipsea. If you’re thinking about making a resolution this year, how about instead of depriving yourself? You focus on providing for yourself. Woo! I am a Dipsea fan. As a parent, it can be very hard to find time for your self. And you know what I’m talking about. Dipsea Stories is an app full of sexy audio stories. It allows you just to close your eyes and let yourself get lost in a world where only good things can happen and pleasure is your only priority. This is something we should be shouting from the top of the mountains. For listeners of the show, Dipsea is offering an extended 30-day free trial when you go to DipseaStories.com/badmother. That’s 30 days of full access for free when you go to D-I-P-S-E-AStories.com/badmother. That’s DipseaStories.com/badmother. 

[Music ends.]

00:45:16

Theresa

Host

Hey, you know what it’s time for! This week’s genius and fails! This is the part of the show where we share our genius moment of the week, as well as our failures, and feel better about ourselves by hearing yours. You can share some of your own by calling 206-350-9485. That’s 206-350-9485.

00:45:36

Biz

Host

Genius fail time. Genius me, me!

00:45:40

Clip

Clip

[Dramatic, swelling music in background.]

Biz: Wow! Oh my God! Oh my God! I saw what you did! Oh my God! I’m paying attention! Wow! You, mom, are a genius. Oh my God, that’s fucking genius!

00:45:55

Biz

Host

Okay! I will. Guess what I got for Christmas? Roller skates! [Laughs.] They’re beautiful! They’re sneaker-style. High-top sneaker style. They’re pink and blue. The wheels are pink with some glitter. They are magnificent. And I love them. And soon as my helmet, knee pads, elbow pads, and wrist guards arrive, I am gonna get out there and roller skate. “Biz, have you ever roller skated before?” When I was twelve. I am sure it will come back to me very naturally. No matter what, it has brought me great joy to even look at the roller skates. So… I’m taking that for the win! [Laughs.] 

00:46:45

Caller

Caller

[Answering machine beeps.] 

Hey, Biz! This is a genius. And in fact, it’s a trifecta. Because the same incident has resulted in me calling you with a fail and a rant and now a genius! So you may recall that I had decided to make for my husband’s 40^th birthday biscuits and sausage gravy. Initially I forgot the sausage. Whoopsie-doopsie! So I went and got the sausage. Then later realized, oopsie-doopsie! Forgot the milks. This was a rather bigger deal because of the timing of the discovery at the lack of milks. So I was very upset about it. But then you know what I remembered? We had evaporated milk! And that shit works just fine! [Laughs.] And so I made gravy with evaporated milk and the color was a little different? [Laughs.] 

[Biz laughs.] 

My delightful husband asked me if I was making dolce de leche. But it tasted like regular gravy. He’s not an asshole. He was just being silly. And so I think—yeah, ultimately? I was a genius! Because we had the evaporated milk! And so I could use that to make the special sausage gravy to celebrate his birthday. So I was and am doing a great job, and so are you! Thanks for the show. Bye.

00:48:02

Biz

Host

You are doing a good job. Yes. I did hear that rant. And fail. As I was going through the calls for the Genius Fail Spectacular. So it was very fun to wrap it all up with the genius. Also—biscuits and gravy—sausage gravy and biscuits? I’m assuming there was a biscuit. Was a biscuit mentioned? I can’t remember. But—delicious! Good job! And you know what? This is the exact sort of thing you need celebrated. So. You are doing an amazing job. Failures!

00:48:35

Clip

Clip

[Dramatic orchestral music plays in the background.]

Theresa: [In a voice akin to the Wicked Witch of the West] Fail. Fail. Fail. FAIL!

[Timpani with foot pedal engaged for humorous effect.]

Biz: [Calmly] You suck!

00:48:41

Biz

Host

Fail me, me. Okay! I have not called my sister in like a long time. Like I keep thinking I need to call my sister. “Hi, Helen Michelle! I know you listen to the show!” I need to call them for multiple reasons, not only just to catch up but to do some parental updates since they’re up here now and find out how her writing is going. Just in general. And every day I don’t do it, I think, “Well, crap. I really need to do that.” So that feels a bit like a fail. Helen, I will call you soon, Helen Michelle! [Laughs.] 

00:49:22

Caller

Caller

[Answering machine beeps.] 

This is a fail. I am a first-time mom to a six-month-old girl. And as happens when one has a baby, my hair had been falling out in clumps and it was halfway down my back and her favorite plaything was my ponytail. So when I finally had a day off, I went and I got a cute-ass little bob and it air-dries super cute and I was so excited. Until I realized I can’t put it up at all, and it is exactly within reach for her when I’m holding her. So now, instead of her pulling out clumps of my hair from my ponytail or when I was naïve enough to leave my long hair down, I have no way of protecting myself. 

[Biz laughs.] 

I am constantly under assault from my six-month-old daughter because I got a cute-ass haircut. You’re doing a great job. I am not.

00:50:24

Biz

Host

Mm, are you not? Are you sure? Obviously you’re doing a great job at getting a cute-ass haircut. You’re doing a terrible job limiting your child in what they can play with on your body. [Laughs.] How dare you not allow your child to use your body as their own personal tug-o’war! Good lord, you are failing! Failing!

00:50:52

Music

Music

“Mom Song” by Adira Amram. Mellow piano music with lyrics.

You are the greatest mom I’ve ever known.

I love you, I love you.

When I have a problem, I call you on the phone.

I love you, I love you.

[Music fades out.]

00:51:17

Promo

Clip

[A restless crowd chatters indistinctly.]

Music: Upbeat rock music.

Jordan Crucchiola: You’re in the theatre. The lights go down. You’re about to get swept up by the characters and all their little details and interpersonal dramas. You look at them and think, “That person is so obviously in love with their best friend. Wait, am I in love with my best friend?! That character’s mom is so overbearing. Why doesn’t she just stand up to her? Oh, good god, do I need to stand up to my own mother?!” If you’ve ever recognized yourself in a movie, then join me—Jordan Crucchiola—for the podcast Feeling Seen. We’ve talked to author Susan Orlean on realizing her own marriage was falling apart after watching Adaptation, an adaptation of her own work! And comedian Hari Kondabolu on why Harold & Kumar was a depressingly-important movie for Southeast Asians. So join me every Thursday for the Feeling Seen podcast, here on Maximum Fun. 

[Music fades out.]

00:52:02

Promo

Clip

Music: Upbeat rock music with rhythmic clapping.

Lisa Hanawalt: I’m Lisa Hanawalt.

Emily Heller: And I’m Emily Heller.

Lisa: Nine years ago, we started a podcast to try and learn something new every episode! 

Emily: Things have gone a little off the rails since then. 

[Lisa laughs.[

Emily: Tune in to hear about—

Lisa: Low-stakes neighborhood drama.

Emily: Gardening.

Lisa: The sordid, nasty underbelly of the Horse Girl lifestyle.

Emily: Hot sauce. [Laughs.] 

Lisa: Addiction to TV and sweaty takes on celebrity culture!

Emily: And the weirdest, grossest stuff you can find on Wikipedia.org.

Lisa: We’ll read all of it no matter how gross. 

[Emily laughs.] 

Lisa: There’s something for everyone on our podcast, Baby Geniuses!

Emily: Hosted by us, two horny, adult idiots.

Lisa: Hang out with us as we try and fail to retain any knowledge at all.

Emily: Every-other week on Maximum Fun.

Lyrics: Baby Geniuses—tell us something we don’t know!

00:52:47

Biz

Host

Alright, everybody. Let’s snuggle up. Listen to a mom have a breakdown.

00:52:53

Caller

Caller

[Answering machine beeps.] 

Hi Biz and Theresa. Whoever’s listening. This is a breakdown. Rant. Driving home from the grocery store at eight o’clock at night all by myself and today was just a really hard day. [Tearfully.] [Inaudible.] My daughter’s in kindergarten and everything’s going great at school and with friends and whatnot. Except today was one of the first experiences with feeling a hint of excluded. And she was upset. And about a friend thing. I just really took it to heart. And I felt so bad for her. And it wasn’t even a big deal and I know she’ll get over it. But it was just kind of my first taste of that. Y’know, witnessing your child feel excluded, I’m kinda hurt. And I just… I just felt so bad. And it just made me feel bad the whole day. When we had [inaudible] felt horrible and then, y’know, and my three-year-old at home, too, she was at the party and she was just kind of having a typical three-year-old, y’know, a few little meltdowns as a typical three-year-old and it was fine but it was just like something else to deal with and manage emotionally. And then we got home and everyone was hungry because they didn’t eat food at the party because they didn’t like the food, and… I don’t know. I just… [sighs.] Mostly I just felt really bad that my five-year-old felt sad. And I just took it on for the whole day. And it's eight o’clock at night [inaudible] the store and I’ve just completely… I don’t know. Having a hard time with this situation. I think I know that it’s just the first of many, many, many, many hard friendship things and social things and who knows what things to come. And I can’t react this way every time or I will just be completely depleted. So I’ve gotta figure out how to manage it, but it’s really hard. And now I’m going home and my husband’s watching the two kids and I have to get ‘em to bed and it’s just hard. Oh. Some point and now—I’m sorry, I just feel better venting about it. I really appreciate your show. It’s very therapeutic for me. I just really, really appreciate you guys. And you’re doing a great job. Thank you. Bye. 

00:55:40

Biz

Host

First of all, you’re doing a great job. You really are. Lot happening here, and we’re gonna start with the big thing—the… look. It sucks. We’re gonna have to watch our kids go through all kind of things that are awful. That we don’t want to witness. And it’s one of the things no one prepares you for. No one prepares you for like, “Oh, your kid is so cute! Look how cute! Everybody’s great! Everybody’s having a good—oh my god, some kid was just a real jerk to my kid. And that has now triggered my entire social experience in the world.” ‘K? Like, that—no one says, “Get ready to deal with that!” There’s really no good way to try to avoid the feelings you’re gonna have when you see this happen. And every situation is different. 

In my situation, if you wanna hear it—if not, skip it thirty seconds—is just that as soon as I realized they weren’t carrying it around? With them? Like, whatever had happened, it was something they were able to get through and then move on with? The easier it was to watch. It was easier for me to find a way to respond, “I’m sorry. That really probably does hurt. Did you have a chance to say anything? Are you hoping it works out? Oh—you guys are friends again? Well, that’s fun!” I mean, you keep your own little journal, parents, of y’know. Your lists. Good. Bad. [Laughs.] Not a good parenting show. Anyway! Something else you touched on is just that you—I’m gonna call it “emotional management,” AKA relentless feeding of your emotions. You are everyday—[sighs.] 

Theresa used to say it all the time. It’s impossible. Every day you start off and the day is really just this progression of… jobs that you knew you had to do. Unexpected jobs. Jobs that you’re halfway through and then you have to pivot on. During that entire time, you’re being interrupted—not out of spite, just out of love. And you’re absorbing your kids’ emotional states. You have your own emotional states. Like you said, you’re at this party and then you get home and of course they’re hungry and guess who has to feed them? You! You still have to do that! And then you still have to do and you still have to do and you still have to do. And then, you still have to do! Simultaneously while trying to absorb and process feelings? Your sense of self? I dunno. Whatever. So… I just want you to know you’re doing such a good job. You’re not alone. I see you. Your child is gonna bounce right back from this, I bet. I see you. And none of this is easy and there is no correct way to navigate it. No correct way to do it. You’re just doing a good job.

00:58:47

Biz 

Host

Oh, man. Everybody? [Laughs.] Synchronicity, thy name is One Bad Mother sometime! After listening to our mom having a breakdown, just about the sort of relentlessness of the emotions that you experience as a parent and the different things that we may or may not have been expecting as parents—and talking with Dr. Russell about ADHD and in particular what it can feel like as a parent getting that diagnosis for your child and living with it—that the need to support and listen to others is so critical! 

So—it—y’know, Dr. Russell is right! It is the best intentions. We are trying our best to connect. But I think this notion—say it! Say it to somebody who just tells you their kid is diagnosed with ADHD. You can say it to somebody who says, “My kid has come out as nonbinary.” You can say it to somebody who, y’know, says, “I’m pregnant!” [Laughs.] “Oh! That is—” I mean, with the pregnancy one, don’t be like, “That must be difficult.” [Laughs.] “That is news!” That’s it. “That’s news! What is that like? Tell me more!” “Tell me more” is such a good thing to say. 

And I hope we can also turn that sort of onto ourselves. That we will listen to ourselves and recognize when we’re telling ourselves that something’s hard; that something’s too much; that something is really tiring; is—what did I—I was telling this to somebody the other day. That it’s like, you hit a wall. And if you hit a wall in real life, you would just fall to the ground. [Laughs.] And that is where you would lay. All done! But in parenting, you hit a wall? And you have to just keep moving. So now you’re moving forward, but you’re pushing a giant wall with you. And there’s probably a child attached to your pants legs somewhere and somebody else is asking for food. Even though they’re a teenager and they can get up and get their own food. Alright? And work’s—[makes unintelligible, frustrated noises.] It’s really a lot, everybody! And it’s okay to feel like it’s a lot. You’re doing an amazing job. Let’s go out and listen to each other. Let’s go out and support each other and just remember, you are very pretty. And smart. So smart! And funny. And you’re doing a great job. And I will talk to you next week. Bye!

01:01:46

Music

Music

“Mama Blues” by Cornbread Ted and the Butterbeans. Strumming acoustic guitar with harmonica and lyrics.

I got the lowdown momma blues

Got the the lowdown momma blues

Gots the lowdown momma blues

The lowdown momma blues. 

Gots the lowdown momma blues

Got the lowdown momma blues

You know that’s right.

[Music fades.]

01:02:09

Biz

Host

We’d like to thank MaxFun; our producer, Gabe Mara; our husbands, Stefan Lawrence and Jesse Thorn; our perfect children, who provide us with inspiration to say all these horrible things; and of course, you, our listeners. To find out more about the songs you heard on today’s podcast and more about the show, please go to MaximumFun.org/onebadmother. For information about live shows, our book and press, please check out OneBadMotherPodcast.com.

01:02:37

Theresa

Host

One Bad Mother is a member of the Maximum Fun family of podcasts. To support the show go to MaximumFun.org/donate.

[Music resumes for a while before fading out.]

01:03:00

Music

Transition

A cheerful ukulele chord.

01:03:02

Speaker 1

Guest

MaximumFun.org.

01:03:03

Speaker 2

Guest

Comedy and culture.

01:03:04

Speaker 3

Guest

Artist owned—

01:03:06

Speaker 4

Guest

—Audience supported.