TRANSCRIPT One Bad Mother Episode 432: Yes, You CAN Put That There, with Dr. Maria Uloko

00:00:00

Biz Ellis

Host

Hi. I’m Biz.

00:00:02

Theresa Thorn

Host

And I’m Theresa.

00:00:03

Biz

Host

Due to the pandemic, we bring you One Bad Mother straight from our homes—including such interruptions as: children! Animal noises! And more! So let’s all get a little closer while we have to be so far apart. And remember—we are doing a good job.

00:00:20

Music

Music

“Summon the Rawk” by Kevin MacLeod. Driving electric guitar and heavy drums.

[Continues through dialogue.]

00:00:25

Biz

Host

This week on One Bad Mother—yes, you can put that there! We talk about sexual health with Dr. Maria Uloko, urologist and comprehensive sexual health surgeon specializing in reconstruction and prosthetics. Plus, Biz is a slob.

00:00:41

Crosstalk

Crosstalk

Biz and caller: Wooooo!

[Biz laughs.] 

00:00:44

Caller

Caller

Guys, this isn’t a check-in. This is just me appreciating another mom that I just saw driving home from picking up my sweet, sweet kid from daycare. And on the side of the street, saw a van parked with the back open. There’s mom, changing her baby’s diaper right on the back of the van floor.

00:01:01

Biz

Host

Yeah!

00:01:02

Caller

Caller

That woman is doing a remarkable job. 

[Biz laughs.] 

And I hope she knows it. You guys are doing a good job, too. Thanks for the podcast. 

00:01:09

Biz

Host

I… hope she knows it, too! Additionally, good job spotting a mom in the wild doing a good job. This—as somebody once asked, “Biz… is it—when is it a good time or is there an awkward time to tell somebody they’re doing a good job?” Now… I have—for a long time—been a believer in, “There is no wrong time to tell someone they’re doing a good job.” But! As I walk through life, I have found maybe there are some times in which the intent is good, but it can get lost [through laughter] on people who are really focused on something else. For example, side-of-the-road changing a baby’s diaper on the floor of a van. I might yell, “You are doing a good job!” Right? But if you are on the side of the road changing a baby in the van, all you might hear is [garbled yelling]. And—[Laughs.] And your mind might tell you something different. That—not a nice thing. I was in car line the other day and the school’s car line is opposite a tire place. And there was a mom pulling in with the car. She had a newborn—I mean, that kid couldn’t have been more than a couple of months old. Max. Who was—oh! Such a reminder of my own child!—screaming the entire time. Screaming. And she’s trying to, like, talk to the tire guys. And everybody’s like—it’s screaming! And I can hear it all the way across car line. And she finally just sits down. And I— [Laughs.] So I’m making eye contact with her, and I’m trying to let her know, like, “Thumbs up! You got this!” But I have no idea how that came across, because I have been there. And I—at those times in my life—was so haggard and broken that, again, I would just think somebody was mocking me or actually giving me the finger or making me feel bad that, y’know, my baby was screaming. How dare my baby! [Laughs.] How dare my baby do that! Anyway. But I tried a number of times to give this woman a thumbs-up, and I—it began to feel weird. Just a little weird! So I don’t know. But that’s okay. We can always find a way to, like… mentally high-five each other. And y’know? When the time is correct, just don’t forget to share with others what a good job they’re doing. Speaking of taking a moment to say what a good job people are doing—it’s time for thank-you’s!

00:03:51

Music

Music

Heavy electric guitar and driving percussion overlaid with “Ohh, oh-oh, oh-oh” and “Hey-ey-ey-ey-ey-ey” lyrics.

00:04:05

Biz

Host

Well, at my school, it’s Teacher Appreciation Day. So I’m gonna lead with that. Oh my god! I appreciate you, teachers and faculty and administration. I mean, anybody who basically works at our school—everybody there—[Laughs.] Is doing such a good job. In fact, all teachers, all people who work in schools, you are doing a great job. We are almost halfway through this year. You are doing amazing. Everybody’s probably still a little nuts ‘cause it’s the first year back after a major pandemic, which—by the way—is not over. So still affecting all of us in different ways on any given day, but I see you. Thank you for showing up. [Laughs.] Again, pandemic? Still happening. So thank you to everyone in the medical field for all that you do to—I don’t know—help us get through this. You’re doing a great job. You know what rhymes with “job”? Slob. So Stefan—[Laughs.] Stefan is still out of town, as of this recording. He has been gone for two weeks. And what my children have discovered—‘cause I am not the—I am not the same person I was when they were very little. And for some reason, I felt a compulsive need to clean all the time. I’ve let that go! [Laughs.] Except when Stefan’s here, ‘cause I just wanna impress Stefan. I’m a slob. That’s what my children have discovered. Raiden went in to use the shower, which is technically in “my” bathroom, and [through laughter] he was like, “What am I supposed to do with all these clothes?” [Laughs.] ‘Cause like—[Laughs.] The floor of the bathroom is covered with my dirty clothes. And the counters are covered with just anything I’ve used in the last two weeks. The trail of clothing just didn’t—continues all the way in and surrounds the bed. Sometimes it’s on the bed. Do I have a laundry basket? Yeah! I do! It’s very easy to access! It’s very easy to access. But for some reason, I am more inclined to drop it on the floor [through laughter] than pick it up. And that’s seeping out in all sorts of places. So… surprise, kids! [Laughs.] You don’t get the cleaning bug from me. Anyway. Oh, you know what? Actually, what I’ll say is—I believe that in retrospect, that cleaning compulsion came from a need to, like, fill a space within me. A control space. Like, I definitely felt like I had control over something when I cleaned. It made me feel good. It was something that was beneficial, but this means I have found other things that are beneficial to me! [Laughs.] So I think that is a celebration. 

Speaking of celebrations—it’s a weird segue—I’m not even sure how to segue into this, except I am so excited that we have this guest on today, and I’m going to be asking all the awkward questions. I can’t wait. We are going to be talking to Dr. Maria Uloko, who is a trained urologist and comprehensive sexual health surgeon specializing in reconstruction and prosthetics. Yeah! Woo! 

00:07:29

Music

Music

Banjo strums; cheerful banjo music continues through dialogue.

00:07:30

Theresa

Host

Please—take a moment to remember: If you’re friends of the hosts of One Bad Mother, you should assume that when we talk about other moms, we’re talking about you.

00:07:38

Biz

Host

If you are married to the host of One Bad Mother, we definitely are talking about you.

00:07:42

Theresa

Host

Nothing we say constitutes professional parenting advice.

00:07:45

Biz

Host

Biz and Theresa’s children are brilliant, lovely, and exceedingly extraordinary.

00:07:49

Theresa

Host

Nothing said on this podcast about them implies otherwise.

[Banjo music fades out.] 

[Biz and her guest repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss the weekly topic.]

00:07:53

Biz

Host

This week, we are talking to Maria Uloko, who is a fellowship-trained urologist and comprehensive sexual health surgeon specializing in reconstruction and prosthetics, providing care for all genders from all over the spectrum. She seeks to close gaps in disparities of care and implement systems that promote diversity and inclusivity, not only in the realm of sexual health but also in education and STEM. She is the host and creator of Battle Cry, a podcast that tells the stories of leaders in STEM with the mission to provide relatable exposure to those who have not historically been represented in these spaces. Welcome—wow! Welcome—and thank you, right off the bat—Dr. Uloko! [Laughs.] 

00:08:41

Maria Uloko

Guest

[Laughs.] Thank you so much for having me! This is so exciting! 

00:08:44

Biz

Host

Well thank you for everything that you’re doing! Wow!

[Maria laughs.] 

We could talk all day! But before we get into all the things that you’re doing, I would like to ask who lives in your house?

00:08:56

Maria

Guest

Who lives in my house? So in my house currently is me, myself, and I. 

00:09:00

Biz

Host

I love it!

00:09:02

Maria

Guest

And Beyonce. Constantly playing in the background.

[Biz laughs.] 

00:09:06

Biz

Host

Beyonce is a good companion. 

[Maria laughs.] 

For all of us. That still sounds like a lot of people in your house. 

00:09:13

Crosstalk

Crosstalk

Maria: [Laughs.] It is. It’s a lot of personality. 

Biz: To be fair. To be fair. Yeah. Just—[Laughs.] 

00:09:19

Biz 

Host

Alright. So I wanna start with your sexual health work. Mmkay? One of the things that I know is your goal is to really help create an inclusive approach to stigmatized subjects. So here we go. Are you ready for my first question of—I’m ready! FYI, I was raised Southern and Catholic, so everything is embarrassing to me.

[Maria laughs.] 

Everything is a stigmatized subject. So I’ve worked really hard to get past it, but y’know. Let’s just get into it. Can you give me examples of what stigmatized subjects might be? 

00:09:57

Maria

Guest

Oh, yes! 

[Biz laughs.] 

I will give you the background of I was raised Nigerian and deeply, deeply religious. And so sex, sexuality, all of that, is very taboo. And knowing who I am as just kind of a kid I was always like, “Oh, wait, what’s this thing I’m not supposed to be doing?” [Laughs.] 

[Biz laughs.] 

So—[Laughs.] And in my rebellion, I say—but still being a good Nigerian daughter—I just became a sex surgeon. So. [Laughs.] 

[Biz laughs.] 

00:10:31

Biz

Host

I love it!

00:10:32

Maria

Guest

So that is my background and that is my [inaudible]. So I—

00:10:34

Biz

Host

I love that background. And by the way, we could really go off track in talking about how you got from there to here. I love it!

00:10:43

Maria

Guest

It is quite a journey. But—yes!

[Biz laughs.] 

So, y’know, I think anything that has to do with sex is just… quote-unquote “taboo.” Even though we all know sex sells. We’re all doing it. We’re all thinking about it. And yet we can’t talk about it, which is the most… insane thing to me. 

[Biz laughs.] 

I just… so to answer the question of, “What is stigmatized?” It’s everything underneath the sun in sex. If we’re talking about heteronormative sex. If we’re talking about homosexual sex. If we’re talking about just sex in general, is stigmatized. All of it. And I think that stigmatization has really not served many people well? [Laughs.] 

[Biz laughs.] 

00:11:28

Biz

Host

Nope! What?! [Laughs.] Do you mean keeping everything super-secret and a little shame-based isn’t good for us?! I don’t understand! I don’t understand. Yeah.

00:11:37

Maria

Guest

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Shame—shame is a big, big, big driver for a lot of the people I see. And so, y’know, I’m a strong believer that sexual health is health? And it is, y’know, the constant conversation of, “Well, I didn’t know” or “It took me years before I felt the courage to come in and see you.” So I understand that every single patient that I interact with or that comes to my office—I understand how hard it was to get here. [Laughs.] And so—

00:12:07

Biz

Host

That’s nice. That’s really nice! ‘Cause it is hard! Yeah! That’s incredibly generous. I mean, that just goes right into… it’s hard to get in to see someone like you, because I think for so many of us, you don’t know anything’s wrong or you don’t know something could be better or you don’t know—right? Like, I gotta lean a little in on the ladies, and a lot of misinformation and assumptions of what’s “supposed” to be really great. [Laughs.] Or not. And what do you find to be—and this may be a question you can’t really answer, because it’s a little of everything—but what do you find to be the questions that people come in with the most? Or—yeah. 

00:12:57

Maria

Guest

So the question that people come in the most with is, “Oh! Wait, it’s not supposed to be like that?” [Laughs.] 

[Biz laughs.] 

That is the question people come in the most with is, “It’s just… it really is—” I love teaching and I think one of the reasons why I love this field is that I’m constantly teaching people about their bodies. I’m teaching them about, y’know, what happens during erection and people with vulvas, I’m literally teaching them, “This is your vulva. This is anatomy.” 

00:13:31

Biz

Host

My what? My what?!

00:13:32

Maria

Guest

Yeah, exactly!

[Biz laughs.] 

I make every single patient either take a mirror or we—

[Biz gasps.]

—we have a vulvoscope where you can actually see yourself on TV, and we’re gonna go through anatomy! We’re gonna learn, y’know, where—this is the clitoris, this is the labia minora, majora. Like, this is the whole vulva. This is really what the vagina is. This is your vestibule. And it really empowers patients just to learn what is happening to them and what they’re experiencing and feeling.

00:14:05

Biz

Host

I—[Laughs.] I am passing out, like, eight—twelve-year-old. I’m like, “Oh, she’s—what?!” As well as the fact that you’ve listed parts of my anatomy that I honestly could not tell you where they are. Like, certain places on a map. Y’know?

[Maria laughs.] 

Like, I don’t know! It’s somewhere in that area? I know that like—[Laughs.] Y’know. Australia’s here, but that—I don’t know much more about it. Right? I just know that everything goes backwards sometimes. Alright. So… I almost wanna go back a little bit and say—ask for you to kind of help define sexual health. Because when I think “sexual health,” the first thoughts that come to my mind really are, like, safety. Right? Like… sexually-transmitted diseases. And I don’t think that’s what we’re talking about here. Right? Or… y’know, family planning. But that’s not really what we’re talking about here. Correct?

00:15:04

Maria

Guest

Yeah. Yeah.

00:15:05

Biz

Host

So what are we talking about? [Laughs.] 

00:15:07

Maria

Guest

Yes. That’s a fantastic question. So I—when I talk about sexual health, those are very—those two things are very, very important in terms of sexual health. But what I’m really trying to do is I try to differentiate between those things. Because when we—especially when we think about people with uteri and vulvas and vaginas and we think of them as kind of birthing people. And just… birth happens to them. It’s like, “Y’know, in order to get to birth, something has to happen first to get there. Typically.”

[Biz laughs.] 

00:15:38

Biz

Host

Yeah, sure!

00:15:39

Maria

Guest

And that is kind of how traditional medicine has always looked at sex and sexuality, is that it is… just a mean to reproduction or means for disease. And so—

00:15:48

Biz

Host

In particular, can I just throw in there—you can tell me if I’m just labeling something on my own—it’s really more about reproduction in terms of how… the medical fields have viewed it for women.

00:16:02

Maria

Guest

Yes.

00:16:03

Biz

Host

Because I feel like for me… every sex education, every anything regarding sex, has—is always, “Baby, baby, baby, baby, baby.” 

00:16:11

Maria

Guest

Exactly.

00:16:12

Biz

Host

“Baby.” But I don’t think that’s the same speech that my, y’know, husband got. So… 

00:16:18

Maria

Guest

Exactly.

00:16:19

Biz

Host

I just wanna make sure—[Laughs.] I wanna make sure that I’m right! [Laughs.] 

00:16:23

Maria

Guest

Yes! No, you are 100% right. There is a definitely a disparity in—and definitely a difference in conversations regarding sex when you look at, y’know, the—we’re looking at gender as a binary. There’s a total difference in what—that doesn’t—it’s such a disconnect. And I think one of the really interesting things about how I came to find that is that I started—I am a urologist, and so I dealt with quote-unquote “men’s health,” erectile dysfunction, premature ejaculation, all of those things. And then my fellowship I wanted to further learn about, y’know, sex and sexuality and sexual health and prosthetics and reconstruction. And that was my first time being exposed to the field of vulvar—female sexual health. And realizing—‘cause, y’know, as a urologist I had just always assumed that the gynecologists were taking care of these things.

00:17:16

Biz

Host

Oh, no. Not always. [Laughs.] 

00:17:17

Maria

Guest

No! No! I had no idea. [Laughs.] Totally not. Unless they—it’s kind of a niche. It’s a niche if you care about it. Even though it’s all the same structures, all the same organs, but they looked at it from a birthing or—they do very important work in terms of birthing and cancer, but not necessarily a big quality of life, like sex and sexuality. So a lot of the things from the vulvar standpoint is pain. I deal with a lot of pain. Orgasm. Desire. Libido. Arousal. And then a lot of menopause management. And there’s a big overlap in all of these things within the gynecology world and within the urology world that—and I think it’s too—it’s so—it’s such… a… nuanced field? And such a complex field? That it needs its own specialty to take care of all of this. And so… there’s very few and far between. I think there’s about seven to ten of us in the country? But we’re making—

00:18:16

Biz

Host

Well that’s a shame! [Laughs.] 

00:18:17

Maria

Guest

We’re making waves! Yeah. Yeah. [Laughs.] 

00:18:18

Biz

Host

That is a real shame! [Laughs.] Just another resource for women dwindling in our country. Or—hopefully growing in our country! But here’s—okay. So where do people start? Because… y’know. In pursuing a better quality of life of sexual health. Right? Like, it’s… for women, we’ve just said it’s very niche. I don’t know if that’s true for men. And I have to assume—[Laughs.] She’s like, “No.” And I have to assume that for those that are transgender or, y’know, anywhere within the LGBTQ community, that—and it’s even more limited. So… can you talk to me about where do people start?

00:19:09

Maria

Guest

Yeah. That’s a fantastic question, and that is why I say I want to destigmatize it. Because it starts with talking to people. It starts with talking to your friends. It starts with not being ashamed of saying, “Y’know, this doesn’t feel right or I’m having this issue” and actually having these conversations. ‘Cause then once you have these conversations, you start noticing that, y’know more and more people are having it. Once you notice more and more people are having it, it takes away that shame piece. Because there is a big shame piece that prevents people from seeking care. And so once you realize that something is abnormal? And you feel empowered to do something about it? That’s where people start. [Laughs.] 

[Biz laughs.] 

It’s just talking about it. 

[Biz laughs.] 

00:19:56

Biz

Host

Yeah! But my podiatrist is not going to help me if I start—I don’t have a podiatrist. But it’s just a good—it’s a joke. Anyway. So do you… do you start with your gynecologist? Do you start with your primary care? Do you go on the internet? No! But start looking specifically for somebody who… deals with sexual health, right? Like, y’know, how does one even start?

00:20:24

Maria

Guest

Yeah. And so—yes. That’s a fantastic question. And to walk back on my statement earlier, there are about seven to ten comprehensive sexual health. So these are urologists that have been trained in both male, female, and every kind of everything in-between those two binaries. But there are gynecologists. There are urologists that—and there are primary care providers where people can start at. And there are some amazing people in this—in these three respective fields that have made sex and sexuality and sexual health the pinnacle of their career. But they’re too far and few in-between, y’know. And that is why, y’know, not only from a patient standpoint of talking to other people but also talking to your providers and kind of saying, “No, this is important to me! I’m no longer willing to accept that it should hurt when I have pain every time. Either you find someone or I’m gonna find someone myself,” but half the time my patients teach me so much. And I think I try to tell them to, y’know, demand—or, y’know, advocate for yourself. Advocate that this isn’t normal.

00:21:39

Biz

Host

But that’s hard! That’s hard! It’s hard to advocate for yourself! Not that I mean—it’s in the long list of “Duh, we should be doing this.” But it’s still very hard. Advocating for yourself is hard. And again… I mean, and it’s not just shame. It’s this notion that it must be me. Like, we have had guests on the show and have talked often on the show about pelvic floor issues. Actually it’s not really the pelvic floor. It’s really a different part. [Laughs.] I’m trying to learn. But especially for women after childbirth, they, A, didn’t know that they could go in and ask for like—we treat women’s bodies, a lot of times, like after—after events like childbirth, like… “Well, all done! And whatever your body does is what it’s supposed to do. Also, can you start doing stuff right away?” “Oh! Did you have a accident running a marathon! Oh, you need some physical therapy! You need some time off.” “Oh, you had a baby? Great! Shh. We don’t wanna know.” Blargh! The statement that keeps coming up the most is, “I just thought it was normal that I peed when I sneeze. And my grandmother did. My mom did. We all did. It's just—when I went to somebody, they said, ‘Who doesn’t? That’s normal!’” [Laughs.] And then you learn that in a lot of cases, you can fix that! So… [sighs]. I don’t know. I think I was just ranting. [Laughs.] 

00:23:07

Maria

Guest

Don’t worry. I have the same rant. I’m constantly talking about this! I’m terrible on first dates. I’m charming on first dates. [Laughs.] 

00:23:14

Biz

Host

I know, me too. I’m like, “Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah!” I’m just gonna leave that in there as me ranting. You’re welcome, everybody. But now I’m gonna go to a different question—I’m sure it’s all gonna circle back, like a train. It’s all gonna come back to the station. I want to ask you about reconstruction and prosthetics. I guess that kind of ties in. Because I would imagine there is some reconstruction involved in this. I—wow. I don’t know what any of that, like… ya gotta talk me through this, but—I mean, reconstruction I understand. Prosthetics… y’know, again, here comes twelve-year-old on the playground Biz. Y’know. Lotsa old songs and chants. [Laughs.] That involved—I guess, prosthetics would be the polite word. I don’t know! So like, talk to me about what… what that part of your work involves.

00:24:07

Maria

Guest

Yes. So this is one of my favorite parts of my job. Is—[Laughs.] Is prosthetic surgery. So for people with penises that have, y’know, fairly end-stage erectile dysfunction—meaning that they no longer respond to medication or injections or other devices—there is the option of a penile prosthetic. Someone used the—one of my patients used like, “This is like a bionic dick!” And it’s like—

[Both like.]

I was like—

00:24:36

Biz

Host

Hooray! [Laughs.] 

00:24:37

Maria

Guest

In theory, yes. Yes. Sure. Yeah. Let’s use that. But yeah! So it’s a fantastic option for—that many people don’t know about. And—

00:24:47

Biz

Host

I didn’t know. Who would know about this?

00:24:48

Maria

Guest

Yeah. Exactly. [Laughs.] 

00:24:50

Biz

Host

Where would you even find out? It’s not like it’s inside my Better Homes and Gardens. Y’know?

00:24:54

Maria

Guest

Exactly!

00:24:56

Biz

Host

They only are pushing for depression. Which is good! I’m just saying—robotic penis or sexual health? Not really up there. Anyway. Go ahead.

00:25:04

Maria

Guest

Yeah! Yeah. So how this procedure is done—it’s essentially a closed-system hydraulic, almost. Where it’s two silicone rods that are placed inside the penis. There’s a pump that sits in the scrotum and then a reservoir that sits in the peri-bladder within the abdomen. And this reservoir is filled with saline. Or fluid. And then you pump the pump in the scrotum, and that pump then sends the fluid from the reservoir into the silicone rods, creating an erection. This—and this gives you a really firm, hard erection. Doesn’t change your ejaculation. Doesn’t change your sensation piece. It just gives you—

00:25:47

Biz

Host

Okay. So you still feel it. And you still ejac—like, everything’s normal. It’s just… the—y’know, tower is—[Laughs.] 

00:25:57

Maria

Guest

Exactly. Is erect. Exactly.

00:25:59

Biz

Host

Is erect! That’s right. That’s crazy. And I just—y’know. Let’s have some popcorn and chitchat at the middle of the night. So the fact that the pump is located in the scrotum—is that like… I mean, that can become part of the play, right? It’s not like you’re like, “Hold on.” Pump, pump, pump, pump, pump. [Laughs.] 

[Maria laughs.] 

You don’t accidentally set it off when you sit down, like on a whoopee cushion. Right? But it’s not a giant pump. It’s like a little pump. Right? It’s—yeah! Just a little friend can help. I assume.

00:26:33

Maria

Guest

A friend can help. Yes. Yes. So depending on the person they either will have—they will incorporate their partner, or, y’know, you can either pump—you can even pump it discreetly so that if you’re not willing to—you don’t want someone to know, you can do it discreetly. So. It’s a great option.

00:26:53

Biz

Host

I have a lot of questions. [Laughs.] But we are not—this is not The Bionic Penis Show. Though I am just like—does the saline recycle? Is it like—y’know. Is that—is that what happens with the saline? Does it recycle? Does it just fill back up? Yeah.

00:27:09

Maria

Guest

Yeah. So this is the closed-loop system. So the reservoir has the saline in it. When you need the erection, you pump the pump. It takes the saline into the cylinders and then there’s a deflate button on the pump, and then when you’re done you hit the deflate button and then it sends the fluid back into the reservoir.

00:27:29

Biz

Host

I… love you. And I love this.

[Maria laughs.] 

And because I am who I am, I have sound effects happening in my head.

[Maria laughs.] 

I have like, “Psheewwww.” Y’know? Like I don’t—[Laughs.] Because I’m—can’t ever—could never be a person who’s supposed to help people with this. ‘Cause I would get tickled! But anyway. That is—that’s fine. I host a podcast instead. So! Now, what does… that… look like for women? What is… what do—what do women get? [Laughs.] 

00:28:04

Maria

Guest

Yeah. So in terms of the prosthetics, there’s nothing in terms of the prosthetics.

[Biz laughs.] 

00:28:08

Biz

Host

“That’s the biggest vulva in the world!”

00:28:13

Maria

Guest

[Laughs.] Yeah. That’s—well, ‘cause—for most people, they’re—so, fun fact. The clitoris and the penis are the exact same structure. The penis is just a longer version of the clitoris, and vice-versa.

00:28:27

Biz

Host

What?!

00:28:28

Maria

Guest

So—yeah! Yeah, yeah, yeah!

00:28:29

Biz

Host

That’s cool!

00:28:30

Maria

Guest

The exact same structure. So if you were to actually look at anatomy, if you were to actually dissect the clitoris out and dissect the penis out, they are exactly the same. And actually the clitoris is longer and the most equal, but more of it is internal. And the only part that you can truly see is the prepuce—or the foreskin and the head.

00:28:52

Biz

Host

Oh my gosh. Did you see that New York Times article a while—recently? It was like, about medical terms needing some—medical terms needing to be changed. For example, “vulva.” The Latin or the Greek. I cannot remember. I have it somewhere. It translates to “shame”?

00:29:09

Maria

Guest

Oh, yeah.

00:29:10

Biz

Host

Like, all of the—and that when they were doing, y’know, historically—when men were— [Laughs.] Writing information about women’s bodies and health and were like, “No, thanks! We’re just gonna make a guess at it ‘cause we don’t wanna see it!”

[Maria laughs.] 

They did have to diagram! They were like, “Yes, women have penises but theirs are just wrong.” [Laughs.] 

00:29:29

Maria

Guest

Mm-hm. Yep! Yeah! Yes.

00:29:31

Biz

Host

That article—I was just like, I wonder where that plays into… someone like you and your work! But—y’know. Does—because… language is so important now, even more important—which I think actually leads to where I kinda wanna go, which is… I am so appreciative that one of your goals is providing care for all genders. And we are so lucky to be living in a time where there is so much more language surrounding how we identify ourselves. And… how we… y’know. Yeah. Just that. It’s wonderful. And… I was wondering—is that where your work also leads? When people come in who are transgender, what are the services they can seek when they’re seeking for sexual health?

00:30:24

Maria

Guest

Yeah! Yes. So that’s a fantastic question. And there are—there are designated transgender surgeons. One of my favorites is Dr. Blair Peters, who is over at OHSU. And so there are definitely designated transgender surgeons. And so those are people that are going to, y’know, help affirm and confirm whatever—help what matches inside match outside. So that is—that—and that field is progressing and it’s so innovative and it’s so amazing that people that have suffered for centuries, really, are finally able to get the care that they need. The paucity—and where I come in—is that once you have the functioning anatomy that correlates with who you are, there is not much research and there’s not much data on how to actually make it functional and pleasurable. And that’s where there’s so much innovation and change in the system and in the field. And this is where I come in and sexual health providers come in. In terms of optimizing this—the quality of life from a sexual standpoint, whether it’s medications; whether it’s hormones. All of those things, that is what—that is what I do and that is how I aid in the fight for equality. 

00:31:47

Biz

Host

Can you give me an… like, do you have a favorite example of “I love that this is something I get to help with!” For people with female reproductive parts, they’re—y’know, you’ve said, “Oh, we get a mirror out. We talk about it.” Y’know. All that stuff. That’s fun. [Laughs.] But… yeah! So for this group, is there like, “Oh, this is coming!” Or “They’ve got this! You didn’t know about it, but it’s great!”

00:32:15

Maria

Guest

So I will always preface everything I say as that—sex, sexuality, sexual health, is a team work. And I grew up playing sports all of my life. That’s how I approach everything. And so I think that’s also why I love this field? Is that it is very much a team sport. So physical therapists—my favorite [inaudible] physical therapist, Bethany Peterson—my best friend since I was eleven—is—it turns out we both went into sexual health. I know. I know. 

00:32:40

Biz

Host

That’s amazing!

00:32:41

Maria

Guest

There’s sex therapists. There’s sexological body work. That’s a huge thing.

00:32:45

Biz

Host

What is what? What is that? [Laughs.] 

00:32:47

Maria

Guest

So these are—these are amazing people that have a degree in the actual practice of sex and getting people comfortable with whatever they need to in order to do well and engage in sex. In the actual practice of sex. It’s actually illegal in—I think—48 out of the 50 states? But the work that they do is—y’know, I—like, I said, I’m a surgeon. And I use the analogy of, y’know, if an orthopedic surgeon will repair your ACL but you’re not gonna have the orthopedic surgeon teach you how to shoot free throws. [Laughs.] 

00:33:23

Biz

Host

See? This is what I’m talking about! That’s right! That’s right! We get physical therapy to injuries! Right! And recovery!

00:33:31

Maria

Guest

Yeah. And that’s where sexological body work comes into play. These are people—and sex therapists and physical therapists. These are people—like, I can optimize you from a biology standpoint, but then you now need to figure out how to work. [Laughs.] And how to do the thing.

00:33:45

Biz

Host

Oh my god! We live in a world in which all of that is… like, complete surprise, here’s something you guys already all know. We are living in a world in which those things exist, but… I mean, I’m guilty of it myself! Of being like, “Oh, I shouldn’t do that. That’s dirty.” Or—[Laughs.] Or that’s like a weird… like, retreat. Y’know. Like, sex cult. [Laughs.] I mean, I just… we’ve just been inundated for so long that it just makes it really easy. Just gotta watch one CSI episode to immediately have some preloaded ideas about what these things are. And what they mean. So. There’s that. That’s a shame. 

[Maria laughs.] 

That’s a shame! I’m literally sitting here wrestling with my own, y’know, thoughts on this. And a little pissed that I haven’t been taking action on a lot of them!

[Maria laughs.] 

I’m like, “What?! I gotta do that!” So—okay. We could obviously have talked about this forever and we’re not even—we’re gonna have—Gabe, we need to have Dr. Uloko back. 

[Maria laughs.] 

Because we didn’t even get into the STEM work. Right? ‘Cause I think that is a whole separate discussion that is also amazing? And… we could also probably talk about this forever. We could probably say, “You got any questions?” And then we would just be inundated. So we’re gonna wrap up and I’m gonna say thank you for what you do. Because it’s… it is embarrassing that I’m like, “I could really probably have gone in and seen somebody about a number of things.” Right? And they don’t have to be medical. They don’t—y’know. Like, and I—so I just… I really appreciate the work you’re doing. I appreciate that inclusivity is part of that work. And… I really hope you will provide us with all the links of all the people and all the different types of resources that are out there for us, so that we can link those up for people to start to learn more on their own. And get to know the types of questions they can be asking. So. 

00:36:00

Maria

Guest

Yes. Yes.

00:36:01

Biz

Host

Thank you so much. [Laughs.] 

00:36:03

Maria

Guest

Oh my gosh! No, thank you for having me! And I would be remiss to not thank my mentor and someone that was big in the field, Dr. Irwin Goldstein, who is the Viagra guy. So he’s—

[Biz laughs.] 

—the Viagra person. And he wrote all of the papers on Viagra and when he started getting correspondences, he assumed it was from men and people with penises congratulating him, high-fiving him. But it was actually the spouses of these people being like, “You have ruined my life.” [Laughs.] You—

00:36:37

Biz

Host

Oh my gosh, I love this! Yeah. Well you do always wonder about that. ‘Cause like you see the commercial and you’re like, “…Great.” So there’s some partner who is like, [flatly] “Yayyy.”

[Both laugh.]

00:36:50

Maria

Guest

And so that’s his first foray into realizing that vulvar sexual health and women’s sexual health just has not been—there wasn’t really a good, good platforms for it. So he got—he trailblazed. He’s making urologists buy into this idea. And all of the fellows he’s trained afterwards, they’ve come before me in this field and have been amazing vocal advocates. And I just get to join their voices. And continue to shape this field. Because it’s important.

00:37:23

Biz

Host

Oh my god. This field. That is so clearly… important. And should have been always. I mean—again, meh. “Oh, surprise!” Sorry. And I know this is for everybody, but I’m like, “Surprise! Women have needs!”

[Maria laughs.] 

“And feelings. And—"

00:37:41

Maria

Guest

Oh, yes. The orgasm gap. Let’s not even go there.

00:37:43

Biz

Host

Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. See? 

[Maria laughs.] 

Gabe, this is why we have to have her back on. Maybe with a glass of wine.

00:37:49

Biz

Host

Ooh! Yes! 

00:37:50

Maria

Guest

Okay. Thank you again so much. We’re going to make sure we link everybody up to where they can find out more about you as well as—I’m like, “Is there a… like, a book? Like a history book on this yet?” I’m like, “This is the kind of thing I would read!” Anyway. Thank you so much. 

00:38:04

Biz

Host

Thank you. Thank you.

00:38:06

Music

Music

“Ones and Zeroes” by “Awesome.” Steady, driving electric guitar with drum and woodwinds.

[Music fades out.]

00:38:23

Music

Promo

Cheerful ukulele with whistling plays in background.

00:38:24

Biz

Promo

One Bad Mother is supported in part by Dipsea. It’s time to seek out pleasure in every area of your life! From how you start your mornings to how you wind down at night, and everything in-between. You deserve to enjoy it all. Did you hear that? You… deserve it! Dipsea Stories is an app full of sexy audio stories. I have spoken about them before. And I am continuing to speak about them because I love this app. They are just the right length. You can select and choose what ya like. Sometimes you might discover things you didn’t know that you like! And it’s all for you! For listeners of the show, Dipsea is offering an extended thirty-day free trial when you go to DipseaStories.com/badmother. That’s thirty days of full access for free with you go to D-I-P-S-E-AStories.com/badmother. DipseaStories.com/badmother.

[Music fades out.]

00:39:28

Music

Promo

Inspirational keyboard music plays in background.

00:39:29

Biz

Promo

One Bad Mother is supported in part by MadeIn. If quality and craftsmanship is important to you, you should check out MadeIn! MadeIn is a cookware and kitchenware brand that works with renowned chefs and artisans to produce some of the world’s best pots, pans, and wineglasses. And I would like to add to that list—knives! ‘Cause that is what I got. A big old chef knife, just for me! Right now, MadeIn is offering our listeners 15% off your first order with promo code “badmother.” This is the best discount available anywhere online for MadeIn products. Go to MadeInCookware.com/badmother, and use promo code “badmother” for 15% off your first order. That’s MadeInCookware.com/badmother, use promo code “badmother.”

00:40:18

Theresa

Host

Hey, you know what it’s time for! This week’s genius and fails! This is the part of the show where we share our genius moment of the week, as well as our failures, and feel better about ourselves by hearing yours. You can share some of your own by calling 206-350-9485. That’s 206-350-9485.

00:40:38

Biz

Host

Genius fail time. Genius me, me!

00:40:41

Clip

Clip

[Dramatic, swelling music in background.]

Biz: Wow! Oh my God! Oh my God! I saw what you did! Oh my God! I’m paying attention! Wow! You, mom, are a genius. Oh my God, that’s fucking genius!

00:40:55

Biz

Host

Okay! I will! Alright. I’m actually really excited about this genius. We have… monogrammed stockings. Y’know, I grew up with monogrammed stockings in the house. I think ours all had initials. But within my immediate Stefan/Raiden/Ellis/me, we have stockings that have our full names on it. And I… had the really good idea to get Raiden a new stocking! Because this will be the Raiden Christmas! And I just was like, “Oh my god, we’re gonna open the bins and we’re gonna pull out Katy Belle.” [Laughs.] Which is a darling stocking and was always filled with love and oranges. But I’m gonna surprise them this year with a new stocking. That says, “Raiden.” Anyway. I’m very… pleased with myself for remembering to do—it was right before bed. I was like, “Oh! I should do that! That’s a good idea!” Oh, yes. 

00:41:58

Caller

Caller

[Answering machine beeps.] 

Hi! I’m calling with—I think—a genius? Or maybe I’m just insane. But we are working on routines, and I don’t like routines personally. I don’t wanna schedule, and I don’t like it. But it’s really helping the three-year-old. And so I have started creating these alarms that kind of keep us on track, especially in the evening after work. And we included our three-year-old in picking which ringtone would mean, like, “Clean up the living room and get in the bath and get out of the bath” and all those things. And I just decided to add some more, because it’s working so freaking well! And I just created my own ringtone where I recorded myself being two different characters. One being Darth Vader telling him to pick up his books in his bedroom, and two, being Yoki the cat telling him to pick up any trash around the house. And you know what? I think he’s gonna love it. And he’s loved this so far, and for some reason the phone telling him to do things is really fun for him? And maybe now he might pick up his books! I don’t know! But I’m feeling actually mostly crazy ‘cause I’m recording myself being a cat. But I’m also feeling like a genius, and I feel like I’m doing a good job! ‘Cause, y’know, I’m trying. And that’s what counts. Right? You guys are doing a great job, too. Thanks for the hotline.

00:43:25

Biz

Host

You are doing a good job. I… love this. We have said often on this show, “Let’s use technology for us.” In creative ways. I don’t just mean like getting through dinner at a restaurant. Let’s use it in a way… that gives us, like, a different type of relief. And you’re right! Children respond to technology better than they do their parents. [Laughs.] I think you’re a genius. You’re doing a great job. Failures!

00:43:57

Clip

Clip

[Dramatic orchestral music plays in the background.]

Theresa: [In a voice akin to the Wicked Witch of the West] Fail. Fail. Fail. FAIL!

[Timpani with foot pedal engaged for humorous effect.]

Biz: [Calmly] You suck!

00:44:04

Biz

Host

Fail me, me. Okay. I can point my finger at myself. I can admit to failures. It has been a week of me putting things in places that they don’t belong. So… what does that mean, Biz? Well, it means that there’s a bag of crackers that Ellis really likes. It looks a little like cat treat bags. And when Ellis was trying to find them, I was like, “I don’t know where they are!” And then I found them with the cat food where I keep the cat treats. Because… I just… that was the shape that goes there. Milk in the pantry. Ice cream in the fridge. That is a real… shame. I have taken some dishes [through laughter] that are supposed to go in the dishwasher and just started heading towards my bedroom. Now that doesn’t even make like any sense. So basically? Y’know, just… feeling alive, guys. Feeling… on top of it. You understand. 

00:45:07

Caller

Caller

[Answering machine beeps.] 

Hi, Biz and Theresa. This is a fail. I am pumping. Lactating and pumping at work. And I got to work this morning and I had so carefully packed my bag the night before with all of my pump parts. I thought. And I got to work and I pulled out the bag of pump parts and I was missing the flange. Y’know, the part that actually gets milk from your boob into the bottle. So, um, I—I couldn’t pump today. So I don’t live close to work. There was no just running home and getting the pieces I had forgotten. So I guess kind of a genius, I just hand-expressed? Into a bottle? I… I milked myself. It was… it was so funny. Until… like… y’know. Six hours into the workday when I just said, “Screw it” and left early. So now my child is happily hanging out in her car seat because we walked in the door and I’m pumping. So… yeah. We’ll see how it goes. But. Thanks for the show! Thanks for the hotline. You are doing a really good job.

00:46:26

Biz

Host

Okay. “Funny” starts with F, as does the word “fail,” and I think that’s a nice twist you’re putting on this fail. By calling it “funny.” But I don’t believe you! ‘Cause there ain’t nothing funny about being engorged with milk in a public space where you are trying to work and it feels like your breasts are going to rip open. Right? Like the alien in, like, Alien. Right? Like, “kkck!” And the milk just sprays everywhere. Or, y’know, you just aren’t even aware that you’re leaking and it’s just this weird… it’s a weird—like, you might as well take a bucket of water and pour that on yourself. Like, “Oh, I can’t believe I spilled all that on me!” to cover up what can happen. And hand-expressing, while a tried-and-true way of getting milk out of your body, is not easy. [Laughs.] Because they invented pumps! No one’s got a lot of experience squeezing that stuff out by hand! I’ve had to do that several times. And it was not my thing. And so… I just want you to know that we see you trying really hard, but still forgetting things that would make your life easier. Stop trying to make your life easier. That is your lesson. [Laughs.] 

00:47:46

Music

Music

“Mom Song” by Adira Amram. Mellow piano music with lyrics.

You are the greatest mom I’ve ever known.

I love you, I love you.

When I have a problem, I call you on the phone.

I love you, I love you.

[Music fades out.]

00:48:10

Promo

Clip

Music: Funky music plays in background.

Pee–wee Herman: Hellooo! I’m Pee-wee Herman! You might know me from TV, but I really wanna be a DJ! It took some convincing, but KCRW finally agreed to give me an hour on the radio to play you some music with my friends! [Laughs.] Anyway, tune in for one hour of the bestest, most funnest time you’ll ever have! On The Pee–wee Herman Radio Hour! I am personally inviting you to tune your transistor radio in to hear me—or go to KCRW.com. Duh! [Laughs.] It’ll be available for the whole week, from November 26^th to December 3^rd. So you can listen to it again, and again, and again, and again, and again! [Laughs.] 

Jesse Thorn: The Pee–wee Herman Radio Hour was produced by Maximum Fun and can be streamed on KCRW.com until December 3^rd. 

00:49:09

Promo

Clip

Music: Guitar strums as singer counts out “One, two, one two three four.” Up-tempo guitar and harmonica music plays in the background.

Justin McElroy: Hi, everybody! My name is Justin McElroy.

Dr. Sydnee McElroy: I’m Sydnee McElroy!

Justin: We’re both doctors, and—

Sydnee: Nope. Just me.

Justin: Okay, well Sydnee’s a doctor and I’m a medical enthusiast.

Sydnee: Okay.

Justin: And we created Sawbones, a marital tour of misguided medicine!

Sydnee: Every week I dig through the annals of medical history to bring you the wildest, grossest—sometimes dumbest—tales of ways we’ve tried to treat people throughout history!

Justin: Eh, lately we do a lot of modern fake medicine. ‘Cause everything’s a disaster. But it’s slightly less of a disaster every Friday, right here on MaximumFun.org, as we bring you Sawbones: A Marital Tour of Misguided Medicine. And remember:

Sydnee: Don’t drill a hole in your head.

[Music ends.]

00:49:53

Biz

Host

Alright, everybody. Let’s listen to a mom have a breakdown. 

00:49:59

Caller

Caller

[Answering machine beeps.] 

Hi, Biz. Thanks for saying I’m doing a great job. I think this is a breakdown? I don’t know. I don’t know. I’m too tired to even feel whatever it is I’m supposed to be feeling at this point, but I just needed to say all of this to the ether ‘cause I feel like I can’t say it to anyone else ‘cause I’m burdening them or it’s too much and also I just—I can’t—can’t fucking hold it anymore. So… so, uh, I’m a teacher. And I’m tired. And my husband just went back onto night shift work. And he just finished five nights in a row. And we haven’t had to do that in our family in a really long time, and I forgot that it sucks. It really, really, really sucks. And the first day that he’s off isn’t really better ‘cause he still has to sleep. So there’s that. And he’s a twin, and his sister starts chemo tomorrow. And she’s how I got through it before, when he did shift work, because she is not partnered and she does not have kids and she has been an essential extra caretaker. And I don’t fucking have that! And I can’t… I can’t be mad about that? And also, now that I’m trying to be a caretaker for her and I’m worried and I’m scared and I am tired. And… my kids can’t be vaccinated. Not yet. And I’m waiting. And I’m waiting. And I’m waiting. We were supposed to be at Disneyworld this week, but we’ve had to cancel it twice. [Sighs deeply.] I just… I just needed to say all that all together, because nobody wants to hear it. Everybody’s got their own shit. And I’m tired. I just want something good. I don’t know. Maybe this is a fucking genius! I don’t know! ‘Cause I’m in the parking lot picking up takeout because I’m too fucking tired to make dinner! Fuck. I don’t know.

[Biz laughs.] 

Thanks for having this hotline because… sometimes we need to feel like you have somebody listening and just knowing that somebody’s gonna hear this makes it feel better. And real. And valid. And so… thanks, guys. Bye. 

00:52:39

Biz

Host

First of all, you’re doing a really good job. And everything that you shared is valid. And I’m… like, I don’t—I’m not sure where I wanna start with this outside of, what a great job you’re doing! Uh, yeah! I am living through the “suddenly my partner is traveling again for the first time in a really long time” and even though it’s different, it’s still not different. And I see you stepping up to help take care of his sister. And you’re amazing ‘cause you’re being mindful of where your partner is in all of this! Given his relationship to his sister. And… y’know… that doesn’t mean, though, that you’re not allowed to be like, “Fuck! I could’ve really used some help!” Like, I—[Laughs.] Of course you could use the help! Of course! No. No one’s timing their cancer around screwing you. Okay? We all know that! Right? But it doesn’t mean you don’t need the space to say, “Aah! But I could’ve really used that help!” No one is gonna come and yell at you for having those feelings. And having those feelings does not take away from… how you feel for your sister-in-law and how—how you’re gonna do all the things that you’re gonna do to help her. And! Y’know, I—[sighs]. This is kinda where I wanna go. This notion of… “No, I don’t want it to be a burden.” Like sharing what’s going on is a burden. I hear this all the time, because I’m listening to the hotline. And I don’t find your calls a burden. So I wonder if this is just, like, another weird narrative that we’ve been fed in the lines of having to be able to do it all. This notion that we’re supposed to be able to cram it all down and deal with it emotionally. Or that somebody’s gonna—I understand that fear of saying, “Ugh! I just want something nice!” Even though we all know everybody around us is wanting the same thing and struggling. It—[sighs]. We shouldn’t be villainized for feeling that way. We need to understand better that we get to feel both ways? The generous and the selfish? Those are both places we can be and one does not negate the other? And so much of this is how we become better listeners to others? Which can be really hard. I just think you’re doing a remarkable job. And I think you’ve used this hotline exactly like you should. And I hope that you will, y’know, find some space to unburden yourself on some others. Because I think we might all be really surprised that they actually will be able to handle it. And hold it for us. You’re doing a good job. You’re coming into a lot of work, both physically and emotionally. It’s gonna be a lot. And you do deserve something nice. And I see you. And you are remarkable. 

00:56:16

Biz

Host

Wowee-wow-wow, wow-wow. Wow-wow-wow. Hey! Here’s what I think maybe the takeaway is. You are important! You are important. Your needs are important. Your body is important. How you feel is important. We talk about self-care on this show and yet we’re all probably, y’know—[sighs]. Dealing with something that we think is supposed to be normal or that we don’t deserve to have be improved. And whether that is lifelong—[Laughs.] Or whether that is a result of having a baby, or whether it is the result of a trauma? We deserve to feel pleasure. And… as a rape survivor, I know—I know that there are so many things tied up—very complicated and very confusing—when it comes to pleasure and how our society views people when they ask and they seek pleasure? So I just—I’m so thankful for Dr. Uloko for coming on and just getting the conversation started about this. And whether it is your sexual pleasure or just helping your body work a little better, you get to have that. You deserve that. It’s—if you’re like, “Is this normal?” Why don’t you start by asking a professional, because they might tell you it’s not and that it’s okay to get help for it. Again, the whole point of this—you deserve the best that you can—that you can get! You deserve—you deserve better. And you deserve it, you deserve it, you deserve it. I’m just gonna keep saying that. You deserve it. You deserve it. You deserve it. You… deserve it. You’re all doing an incredible job. And I will talk to you next week. Bye!

00:58:30

Music

Music

“Mama Blues” by Cornbread Ted and the Butterbeans. Strumming acoustic guitar with harmonica and lyrics.

I got the lowdown momma blues

Got the the lowdown momma blues

Gots the lowdown momma blues

The lowdown momma blues. 

Gots the lowdown momma blues

Got the lowdown momma blues

You know that’s right.

[Music fades.]

00:58:54

Biz

Host

We’d like to thank MaxFun; our producer, Gabe Mara; our husbands, Stefan Lawrence and Jesse Thorn; our perfect children, who provide us with inspiration to say all these horrible things; and of course, you, our listeners. To find out more about the songs you heard on today’s podcast and more about the show, please go to MaximumFun.org/onebadmother. For information about live shows, our book and press, please check out OneBadMotherPodcast.com.

00:59:23

Theresa

Host

One Bad Mother is a member of the Maximum Fun family of podcasts. To support the show go to MaximumFun.org/donate.

[Music resumes for a while before fading out.]

00:59:46

Music

Transition

A cheerful ukulele chord.

00:59:47

Speaker 1

Guest

MaximumFun.org.

00:59:49

Speaker 2

Guest

Comedy and culture.

00:59:50

Speaker 3

Guest

Artist owned—

00:59:51

Speaker 4

Guest

—Audience supported.