Transcript
biz
Hi. I’m Biz.
theresa
And I’m Theresa.
biz
Due to the pandemic, we bring you One Bad Mother straight from our homes—including such interruptions as: children! Animal noises! And more! So let’s all get a little closer while we have to be so far apart. And remember—we are doing a good job.
music
“Summon the Rawk” by Kevin MacLeod. Driving electric guitar and heavy drums. [Continues through dialogue.]
biz
This week on One Bad Mother—like my father before me—wait, maybe not just like my father or his father. We talk to Ben Brashares and Elizabeth Bergeland about their children’s book, The Great Whipplethorp Bug Collection. Plus, Biz is on the move!
crosstalk
Biz and caller: Wooooo! [Caller extends “woo” longer than Biz.] [Biz laughs.]
caller
This is a check-in. So a minute ago is the second time in two weeks I have just went ahead and pulled over and peed into a pee jug. Because apparently I have no more fucks. [Biz laughs.] I don’t care. I’m not gonna wait to get to a place where I have to go to the bathroom and let my bladder burst. So… I don’t know who I’ve turned into, but apparently I don’t have any fucks to give. You’re both doing a really good job and everyone else is, too. Bye.
biz
I really appreciate the ambiguity of your call and not knowing if the need for urgent peeing is because you are pregnant or because you had a baby and it somehow affected the peeing. Or—[Laughs.] Or neither of those things, and you just have too much to fucking do because you are a parent to stop and pull over to pee. I have been there. I’ve been in that situation where you leave in the morning and you discover you haven’t been home in six hours. I think you’re amazing. And I think necessity is the foundation of invention. And I just—I think this is great! Because of calls like you, I never blink twice when I see women on the side of the street doing really anything. Doing… anything. And trust me, you guys have called in to let me know all kinds of things you’re able to do in your car without stopping. Bravo. You’re amazing. Welcome to this side of the fence where there are no fucks given. Speaking of no fucks given, I actually give a few fucks about all the people who are making life possible during this pandemic. Guys, the pandemic is still happening. It is! It is! I know! Vaccines—good stuff. But yikes. And I am really looking forward to eventually having a doctor come on and answer my questions for those of us who have children under twelve who can’t be vaccinated. Anyhoo. Thank you, everyone in the medical profession. Doctors, nurses, RNs, the administrative staff, those that sanitize and clean all the areas that we all wander and walk through. Thank you, thank you. I really appreciate all that you have done. Teachers? You are amazing. You are amazing. And I—I really think you have gone above and beyond this past year. And I will always work towards making your life as easy as possible. [Laughs.]
biz
Thank you to libraries. You’re all starting to open all over the place and I think that’s amazing. Thank you to delivery services, who are still bringing us food for those of us who are still terrified of the world. Thank you to all the people who help make sure that stores and restaurants and everybody are getting the supplies that they need. I just—and vaccines. Thank you. Thank you. Vaccines! Vaccines, you’re wonderful. Thank you to the people who are poking us. Thank you to the people who are scheduling appointments to get us poked. I love you. You’re wonderful. Speaking of wonderful and remotely terrified, I’m about to go on a trip. I’m… going to Alabama. Now this is not the usual Alabama trip that happens where me and the kids go for several weeks and Stefan joins during that. No, no. It’s just me. And I’m meeting my sister there. Because—duh, duh, duh, duhhh!—something I haven’t shared on the show for a while is that I’ve been trying to get my parents moved out here to Pasadena to live with us. Not in the house! ‘Cause no one wants to live in the same house in my family. But we’re gonna try and build a little house in the back. And stick them there. And that’s just been a big complicated shitshow of stress and not happening stuff. Well, now it’s gonna happen. It’s coming. So I am so very excited. They’re gonna be out here in a couple of months but this is the trip where Helen Michelle and I go down and help with any last-minute final packing, garage sales, selling stuff. I’m freaking the fuck out ‘cause I’m gonna be on a place. I’m gonna be in a hotel. And I’m gonna be renting a car. I have three tubes of hand sanitizer to just have on me at all times. I have very strong masks. And I’m just really, really nervous that I’m not gonna be able to do this! And I used to love doing this! Speaking of trying to recapture the greatness of the past—[Laughs.] We are going to talk to the author and illustrator of the new book, The Great Whipplethorp Bug Collection, about finding out who we are in the shadows of greatness.
music
Banjo strums; cheerful banjo music continues through dialogue.
theresa
Please—take a moment to remember: If you’re friends of the hosts of One Bad Mother, you should assume that when we talk about other moms, we’re talking about you.
biz
If you are married to the host of One Bad Mother, we definitely are talking about you.
theresa
Nothing we say constitutes professional parenting advice.
biz
Biz and Theresa’s children are brilliant, lovely, and exceedingly extraordinary.
theresa
Nothing said on this podcast about them implies otherwise. [Banjo music fades out.] [Biz, Ben, and Elizabeth repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss the weekly topic.]
biz
This week, we are talking with Ben Brashares. His first children’s book, Being Edie is Hard Today, was published by Little Brown in 2019. He writes about his life as a stay-at-home-dad in a blog called The SAHD Life—S-A-H-D. He holds an MFA in creative writing and has written for several magazines, including Rolling Stone, Men’s Journal, and Entertainment Weekly. Elizabeth Bergeland received a BFA in painting from the University of Colorado and works primarily with oils, watercolor, and pencil. Elizabeth grew up in Denver, Colorado but now lives in Philadelphia. Together their latest work is The Great Whipplethorp Bug Collection. Welcome, Ben and Elizabeth!
ben brashares
Hello! Thank you! Thank you so much for having me!
elizabeth bergeland
Hello!
biz
Let me ask before we get into this—who lives in your house?
ben
So right now, I have a wife and I have a fourteen-year-old boy— [Biz laughs knowingly.] Who’s—yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Who’s basically I only know he’s here when he’s in the shower. And otherwise I don’t see him or hear him or anything. And I’ve got a twelve-year-old girl. And then an eight-year-old, soon-to-be-nine-year-old, boy.
biz
Elizabeth?
elizabeth
Yes!
biz
Who lives in your house?
elizabeth
I live with my husband. And my three children. I’ve got my almost-fourteen-year-old daughter, a [with uncertain inflection] twelve-year-old son, and a ten-year-old girl.
biz
[Laughs.] Sure! I dunno. After a point the ages just really blend together. Y’know? Like, I dunno. “The short one, the taller one—” [Laughs.] That’s how that works.
elizabeth
Exactly! Exactly.
biz
This is not the first project you guys have worked on together. Your first book was Being Edie is Hard Today. That was y’all’s first collaborative work. And now you guys have come out with The Great Whipplethorp Bug Collection. And I guess I’d love to know how you guys started working together! A lot of times with these types of books, somebody comes up with the idea and then a publisher’s like, “Here’s your art.” And that’s it.
crosstalk
Ben and Elizabeth: Yeah.
biz
So how did you guys do this? You know what? I’ll start, actually—Elizabeth, I’ll start with you.
elizabeth
Okay. Well that’s great that you have an understanding of how it typically works, because most people don’t so we have to give that background. ‘Cause that is the typical path. An author will submit a manuscript and then just pair them with an illustrator. So Ben and I, when we met we were both just like miserable stay-at-home parents. [Biz laughs.] That weren’t getting any art done. And so spent most of our hours together talking about, y’know, the awesome stuff we’re gonna make when our kids were older. So we had always talked about doing a project together. Our kids grew up a little. I moved to Philly. And I was like, “Alright. It’s now or never. We gotta do this.” So I had illustrated this little character, Edie, and I had sent it to Ben and I said, “Okay. Her name’s Edie.” There were a few different illustrations; one with like polar bear hands sitting on a swing. And I was like, “Can you write?” [Biz laughs.] And so then he sent back—
biz
“Can you write? Do you write?”
ben
No.
biz
“Can you write?”
ben
No. [Multiple people laugh.]
elizabeth
So then he sent back a few pages and it was like awesome. I mean it started out very, very dark. And the story was about, y’know, a little girl who was almost—y’know, trying on different personalities. But she was like skinning animals and putting them on and seeing what it was like. And we had a point where like, “What are we doing, again? Are we making a children’s book or…”
ben
Silence of the Lambs had a big effect on me. [Multiple people laugh.]
elizabeth
So we kind of were like, “Okay, okay, okay. Let’s start over. Let’s get going. We can really do this. I think we can make something great that we can submit.” And for the record, it was Ben that kind of reined it in. I would’ve like loved for it to spiral out into some dark madness. Y’know. [Biz laughs.] Ben is the one with the connections—
ben
You saying I chickened out? You saying I’m the one who chickened out?
elizabeth
He’s the one that wants to make money.
ben
Oh, boy.
biz
Oh, money!
elizabeth
He’s like, “I gotta make that paycheck.”
ben
You’re the money-grubbing… [Biz laughs.]
biz
So we got the first book out. And now the new one, which is all about Chuck Whipplethorp trying to understand his place in greatness, essentially. Finding out sort of who he is amongst many generations of great men. There’s actually—I feel like there are two themes going on in this book when I read it. And I guess I should start—for people who haven’t read it yet—to maybe do like a brief synopsis of the—Chuck and his family have moved so they’re in a new home. They’re surrounded by boxes. He’s what, ten? Eleven?
ben
Mm-hm.
biz
Looks roughly about that age. And he’s got a stay-at-home-dad who works on a computer. And one of my favorite parts of this book is Chuck, this kid, says, y’know, “Am I gonna grow up and be boring like you? You boring guy.” And then the dad shows him all of the men of the house, like, of his family that have preceded him. Mountain climber. Y’know. Entomologist. Deep-sea diver. And now Chuck’s trying to figure out where his place is in all of this. He wants to be great. He wants to bring greatness back to his family. So like I said, I feel like there were sort of two themes that came out of this for me. One was sort of the idea of “What is masculinity when it comes to greatness?” Also just trying to learn how to be okay with your self? So I wanna start there. Talk to me about—Ben, I’m gonna start with you. Talk to me about Chuck and this sort of journey for him. Where did you wanna take him?
ben
Yes. So Chuck—well, both books, the Being Edie is Hard Today and Great Whipplethorp Bug Collection—both are very much about identity and trying to find it. Edie was sort of more—a little bit more somber; a little bit quieter. More in her imagination. She’s using her imagination to try and find it. Chuck’s looking back on his ancestry to try and find it. So for Chuck, himself, personally, I am the youngest of four so I’ve always been sort of trying to find my way in relation to my older three siblings. It’s always been a big deal for me to try and do something different from them. Do something as good or whatever. But similarly, y’know, my—in terms of my father, my grandfather, and all them—there’s some autobiographical elements there. I mean, during this time that we were writing and trying to think of ideas for how to best do this book, my dad was sailing across the Atlantic Ocean on his own little boat. And I was sitting there on my laptop watching—I had this little app that could track his whereabouts, y’know. And I saw this little blip in the middle of the ocean as my children are climbing on my head and screaming for— [Biz laughs.]
crosstalk
Biz: There’s cats running around. Yeah. Ben: —that they’re literally starving to death. Yeah. Yeah.
biz
You’re not necessarily out on a boat braving it on your own. [Laughs.]
ben
I’m not! Y’know? I’m about as far from that as possible. And partly by design. I think I’d lose my mind if I was out on a boat in the middle of the ocean. So we end up with these—our, y’know, lives that we choose. Right? So he’s running from his demons out in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. I’ve got my demons sitting on my head. No. But y’know, it’s… it’s hard to say what compels a person to do these things, but I found myself thinking—gosh. Y’know. Is this gonna keep going like this? Are my poor kids gonna be even—I wanted to use the word “worse” and that was a point of contention a little bit with the publisher. With the editor. And we changed it to, y’know, “Are getting a lot less great.” Which makes more sense and I actually—it ends up being better for the book because it’s about the Great Whipplethorps. And so eventually I was thinking, gosh, y’know, that’s kind of interesting. Are we devolving in some ways or are we evolving? And y’know of course it’s both a little bit! Y’know. We don’t have anything—any more continents to discover or any more giant land animals to make extinct.
crosstalk
Ben: Well, actually we have a few more. Biz: Oh, we can always find something to make extinct. Man, what are you talking about? [Multiple people laugh.]
ben
We’ll keep going. We’ll keep working on that.
biz
Well I wanna stop there and say that like… those sorts of notions of what greatness is… right? Like, these notions of invading lands that may not be ours or slaughtering animals and—y’know, these ideas of what made a person “great” or a different generation “great,” that’s not always true. And… in fact, I think this generation of kids are really sitting in a place of unpacking what that means and what that looks like. And I—my youngest, Ellis, who is seven, I gotta be—just to show you where I am in the world with mine—I haven’t even shown him this book because there’s a moment in which there is a dead bug. And Ellis can’t eat cookies that have faces? You can’t give him a Chewbacca cake. This is too upsetting. He is deeply empathetic. And I—and here’s this book which I think is empathetic. There’s this moment where Chuck’s gonna start his own great bug collection and then he realizes that in order to do that, he has to kill the bugs! And even when he decides to collect dead bugs instead of live bugs, he glues them to paper. He still doesn’t stick them with the pin! And I— [Ben laughs.] I know! It’s the best! It’s the best! I love it! And I think it’s such a nice—like, I felt that really deeply as an adult, given who my kids are. And how they kinda—‘cause I’m of the pre-generation Whipplethorps. I’m like, “Get out there! Do it!” [Laughs.] “Let’s just make our way through and toughen up and be—” Y’know. I never do the “be a man” shit. But there’s a part of me that’s like, I myself—if I could live in flannel and carry an axe all day, I would! I thought that was really… touching.
elizabeth
Oh, it was so critical to us that the main character in this was a boy. And not a girl. ‘Cause so much of what we’ve been discussing and all this other work—I’m working on a big painting series studying masculinity right now. And a lot of it was even prompted from Ben and our time together. As parents. Like, parenting alongside each other. Because we’re both stay-at-home parents at the time and I was constantly being told, “You are doing the most important work. This is so good.” And they would basically like turn to him and be like, “When are you going to work?” Y’know? And for me it just is like—these things—if I wanna be respected in the workplace, we need to be able to respect men in caretaker roles. And I’m like, they have to go together. Overwhelmingly—
biz
You can’t just be like, “Make room.” If I want the equality, that has to be asserted as well when it comes to that role for men. I 100% agree. We’ve always made an effort on this show to really promote that because it’s bullshit that stay-at-home dads get shunned out of mom groups and stuff. Right? “They must be here to look at my boob!” Y’know? Like [through laughter] where it’s like— [Ben laughs.]
elizabeth
I know!
crosstalk
Biz: Or… or like dad’s just bored out of their fucking mind— Ben: We are. We are there.
biz
—and needs to be out and kill some time. So I loved that it was the stay-at-home dad with a son. And I’m gonna now ask you about the art. Because something else that jumped out—not only do I wanna ask about the choice of the people not having color—they’re colorless. I mean, they just have their outline but they’re as white as the page that they’re drawn on. But there’s a… a page in which it’s got the Great Whipplethorp men who have come before. They’re all—y’know, it’s pretty colorful. So there’s the great-grandfather—I mean, the great-great grandfather, the great-grandfather, the grandfather, and then the current dad. And the current—there’s like, The Explorer! They’ve got all this stuff! And then there’s dad with the baby carrier facing front. What were those—the Ergos? Airgos. Ergos. I don’t know. I tried strapping my baby to me a million ways and none of them worked. Which is colored! Which is such a—it’s just like this very pronounced piece of equipment on the dad. Talk to me about illustrating this and these choices!
elizabeth
Yeah. I mean, that part has come up multiple times already. Right, Ben? Just because—as you pointed out—stylistically, it’s different! Than the rest of the book. And that spread gave me more trouble than any other spread. I mean, I must have redone it so many times. Because y’know stylistically, as you noted, the characters are all in negative space. And all the color’s in the background and it’s making them pop in that way. And all the characters are all sort of profile. And I wanted these like really clean, simple lines and initially had done the portrait page just like that. All of them were in profile. And it just didn’t… it matched the style of the rest of the book, but it didn’t read like a portrait? And that was obviously really important. Was we’re trying to show—y’know, we wanted to push these were like actual people. And these are actual photographs that he pulled out, not just—when they were—it was done more stylized? It looked like it was in his imagination or so those—a lot of the decisions on that one were actually practical ones? Just to make them look like photographs. One of Ben’s ideas that you might note in that spread also—the frames are descending in ornateness? But ascending in color?
biz
There ya go. That’s it. Yeah.
ben
Genius. Totally genius.
biz
Genius. Genius. And I even know why you guys are working together. [Multiple people laugh.] But with that there’s also a descendance, as it were, in quote-unquote “masculinity.” [Laughs.] Like they’re—
elizabeth
Exactly.
biz
And I thought, “There’s this dad! With his baby on him!” Y’know, nothing threatening there! And like—[Laughs.] And I love it. Because what I like about that last picture is that the dad still looks completely okay with who they are.
crosstalk
Biz and Elizabeth: He’s so happy!
elizabeth
Yeah. He’s so happy. And yeah! And that’s so much of the conversation we’re wanting to have. Is expanding our definition of masculinity! What does it mean to be a man? Y’know? And those are questions I think it’s important to ask. And I think for me, when my son hit ten was the first moment I saw these kind of like… the social impact of feeling this masculine social pressure. To be less affectionate with his friends. He wasn’t wanting to give them gifts on holidays. He felt embarrassed about that. Didn’t wanna hold their hands in public. And I was like, “What the—” Y’know, like I felt we had done all this work in the home to create an environment where—like, he’s an extremely affectionate kid! And yet these forces are strong. And it’s coming from all over the place. And so I want him to live a full life. Y’know. Socially. And I think as women, I think we have a lot more—well, restrictions are obvious. Y’know. IN pay and workplace and all that. But socially I’d say we have a lot more mobility? Like, I can dress masculine.
biz
That’s very true.
elizabeth
I can dress feminine. I can be affectionate with my girlfriends and never is my femininity challenged. Whereas for me—
biz
Well, for men any sense of that makes them… more female, which is negative as a whole. Right? Like that—our society, while we can “do whatever” in terms of dressing or our interests, it still doesn’t erase the negative view of what is feminine.
elizabeth
Absolutely. And that’s the baseline problem. Is that negative—female is seen as lesser. Weaker.
biz
Yeah. And that—that sucks for guys! Because there are… I mean, again, I can only speak from my own experience with my kids. And y’know, my youngest—that’s—that’s not gonna be [through laughter] their life, probably. I don’t think they’re gonna wake up one morning and be like, “Yeah! I am ready to just disrespect women and go out there and fucking just—[yells].” Y’know. “Spread my legs on the Subway!” OR whatever other cliches or stereotype I have of what masculinity is.
ben
Y’know, whether you—if you love animals. Right? If you take a little baby bird in and you feed it with a little eyedropper and you wake up every four hours to care for it—does that make you less of a man? Does it make you more feminine? That to me—like, that’s… that’s where it sort of hits home a little more for me. I mean, obviously it hits home for me as a stay-at-home dad for the last fourteen years. And all of that. But for me, it’s about… do you need to conquer, kill, explore, y’know, I’m not someone who—y’know, I have a lot of fears. I have a lot of illogical fears and things and they’ve governed a lot of my life, unfortunately. And y’know is that feminine? Y’know.
biz
It’s a good question! No, but it’s a good question! It may even be that we need to just take those two words out altogether. Right? Because even by saying “Does that make me feminine,” which—by the way—I presented that question, so that’s on me. I guess that’s more of the discussion that has to happen is less about “does it make me feminine? Does it make me masculine?” versus “Does it just make me the preosn that I am.”
ben
Absolutely. And it’s taken me a long time to—I mean, it takes, I think, everyone a really long time to just accept who the hell they are. And say—and be kind of unapologetic about the things the do or the things they wear Y’know. How they talk. All that But man. We spend so much of our lives just way too concerned about that and feeling some shame about this and that. And I mean, for Chuck he’s ten years old or whatever he is and that’s happening about thirty years early, as far as I’m concerned, is being comfortable with who he is. Y’know. [Biz laughs.] I don’t know. Hopefully that does come early for kids. Boys or girls. Y’know. In terms of, “Hey, this is my thing. I’m different from my dad. I’m different from my granddad. I’m different from my friends! But hey, y’know, that’s just—that’s it.” And as parents, y’know, that’s their best gift we can give our kids, really. Is just have the confidence to be able to do that.
biz
I know that as a parent I went into this like, “Oh, yeah! Mine are gonna be like this, this, and this. And I’m gonna do this and never gonna be a princess in this house” and we just princessed it out. All of these things that we go into parenting thinking we know we’re gonna do and be like really cool with. And then… there are kids in our house. And it was all a lie. [Laughs.] That we told ourselves. So I guess—and Elizabeth, I want to start on this with you if you don’t mind. And three kids! I was joking with Theresa, the other host on the show. She’s got three kids and I always joke, “Haha! You have a real science experiment going on here. You’ve got a full three you could try different stuff on!” What’s changed? What did you think you were gonna have maybe some control over? What’s been interesting to witness as these kids have grown up? I mean, they are in that age now! They are—all three of yours are in the zone!
elizabeth
Oh yeah. I mean, I’m just constantly blowing it.
biz
Oh, yeah! Woo! On the blowing train! [Laughs.]
elizabeth
That’s the thing! That I’m like—in terms of what’s surprising me. It’s not that my kids have surprised me. I’ve surprised me. At how I just disappoint myself constantly. Everything we say, “I’m not gonna do what my parents did”—I’ve done times a thousand. All I can do is apologize. Y’know. They’ve got this chaos artist mom. And I’m—I’m trying to grow up! And I always tell my kids, like, “We’re the same.” And I had kids young, so in some sense we’re the same. I’m like, teen mom. I didn’t have my kids as a teenager, but. [Biz laughs.] They—y’know, like, I’m like, “We’re here for a blip in time on this earth.” And I’m like, “We’re literally the same. I literally know nothing.” IN terms of the things that have surprised me—y’know, it’s pretty—it’s fascinating to watch. My kids are at the age where they’re absolutely pushing, y’know, the gender binary and y’know their sexuality and these things are such a normal part of their life. And a normal part of their conversation. And those are not conversations I grew up with, so they weren’t conversations I was expecting to have. So I’m always taken aback and curious and interested to hear what they have to say. And the why’s and just the nonbinary, y’know, the gender nonbinary… land has been a great conversation, y’know, specifically with my oldest. She’ll be starting high school next year. And most of her girlfriends are nonbinary and identify as bi. And that’s been fascinating! And even, y’know—
biz
It’s happening here. Happening out here in Pasadena as well with mine going into the seventh grade. They just out—they’re out-gaying each other as much as possible and it’s no longer about—it’s no longer what it used to be when it comes to like… it’s really different. And I hope—like, I’m hoping—I’m crossing my fingers that the fact that this generation of kids talks about it and… that that nonbinary-ness that like… the stuff that we all grew up with, because it’s so different for them, that some of the other things that went with living in a very heterosexual, straight society—where, y’know, if you were a tomboy, [whispers conspiratorially] you were a lesbian! [Laughs.] Things like that, that maybe… those other sort of traditional aspects of… I mean, I can’t imagine this book twenty years ago. Or thirty years ago.
elizabeth
Yeah! I mean, I’m hopeful. I mean, and yet there’s still some things about it. There’s things about it that are very much the same. Y’know, even the fact that—y’know, in particularly most of my daughter’s female friends are identifying as nonbinary, but it’s not as predominant with a lot of her male friends. Well that right there to me is like… y’know, I’m like, “Well great.” But also like, “Okay. They understand that—” as you pointed out earlier “—female is considered weaker. It’s a power grab. So they’re grabbing up!” So it’s still—that’s the question! I’m like, is it more of the same? Y’know? So I don’t know!
biz
I think it’s just women slowly weeding out the need for men. I’m just kidding. [All laugh. Someone applauds.] I’m just kidding! I’m just kidding!
crosstalk
Ben: Oh, so glad I came onto this podcast. I’m kidding. Biz: Oh, I’m just kidding! Um…
biz
Ben, how about you? The parenting experience? The stay-at-home—I mean, ‘cause I gotta say—it’s a different reflection in your house as the stay-at-home dad! I mean, your kids grew up with a scenario that comes with its own baggage right away.
ben
My youngest actually did a “What do you wanna be when you grow up” make a little poster and he brought it home and it was a picture of him and he said, “A cleaner.” And he had sort of seen me just cleaning all the time, I guess. And I was really proud of that. But I’m really not a very political person. I don’t really get involved too much with the—I dunno—what’s going on with the gender binary issues and all that. And fluidities. And I just want my kids to be kind. I just want them to be kind people. And open to whatever and I’m not saying I’m not interested in that stuff because I don’t believe in all that. I know it’s—I love that all of that’s going on. I just… in my house, if you’re a kind person, that goes a long way.
biz
I think that that’s the core of everything we’ve talked about. Right? Just supporting kindness. And being comfortable with being kind? Is… is really a great goal in general. Everybody, I am going to make sure that you can find the wonderful—The Great Whipplethorp Bug Collection. It is not only a beautifully-written book; it is a beautifully-illustrated book. And I could have gone into a lot more, “Ooh, the size of the trees when he’s—” Y’know, “Sometimes the nature is greater than him! And other times he’s greater than—” Anyway. It is just beautiful and wonderful and another great book to add to your collection. And like I always say, get one for you, get one for your library, get one for your school so that everybody has access to it. Ben and Elizabeth, thank you so much for joining us and y’know, just talking this out. You guys are doing such a great job! Thank you!
crosstalk
Elizabeth: Thanks, Biz. Ben: Thank you! Thank you so much for having us.
music
“Ones and Zeroes” by “Awesome.” Steady, driving electric guitar with drum and woodwinds. [Music fades out.]
music
Cheerful ukulele with whistling plays in background.
theresa
One Bad Mother is supported in part by StoryWorth. And if there’s ever been a year to make the dads in your life feel loved and appreciated on Father’s Day, it’s this one.
biz
Wait, what? Father’s Day is coming? [Both laugh.] Oh my god! [Laughs.] Whoops! Guys, I love StoryWorth as a gift. I have given StoryWorth to both of my parents and it’s an online service that helps every father figure or other relative or special person in your life to share stories through thought-provoking questions about their memories and personal thoughts. So every week, StoryWorth sends them an email with different questions. So it’s a great Father’s Day gift because you’ll get to know things about your dad that you might not have known before! After one year, StoryWorth will compile all your dad’s stories into a beautiful keepsake book that’s shipped for free.
theresa
So give your dad the most meaningful gift this Father’s Day with StoryWorth. Get started right away with no shipping required by going to StoryWorth.com/badmother. You’ll get $10 off your first purchase. That’s StoryWorth.com/badmother for $10 off. [Music fades out.]
theresa
Hey, you know what it’s time for! This week’s genius and fails! This is the part of the show where we share our genius moment of the week, as well as our failures, and feel better about ourselves by hearing yours. You can share some of your own by calling 206-350-9485. That’s 206-350-9485.
biz
Theresa? Genius me.
clip
[Dramatic, swelling music in background.] Biz: Wow! Oh my God! Oh my God! I saw what you did! Oh my God! I’m paying attention! Wow! You, mom, are a genius. Oh my God, that’s fucking genius! [Biz and Theresa repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss their respective genius moments of the week.]
theresa
Okay. I feel that a genius is warranted because it is my [Laughs.] seven-year-old Oscar’s last day of first grade.
biz
Aww. Booboo.
theresa
And it’s—it does feel… like an achievement. Like, it… does feel… like, I’m thinking back to months ago in the thick of the remote schooling and y’know the transition to hybrid and all that stuff that just—[Laughs.] Just never went well. [Biz laughs.] Like just none of it ever went well. But at the same time, we did it. And I do feel like he had first grade. Like I do feel like… he had first—you know what I mean? I don’t feel like the year was lost. I feel like he did kind of, at least—
biz
Biz: Got a little first grade under his belt. [Laughs.] Theresa: —go to first grade. Yeah. Yeah.
theresa
So it feels good.
biz
You are correct. That does deserve a genius. Even if Oscar had received no first grade—[Laughs.] This was a freaking achievement just getting to this day this year.
theresa
Yeah, I think so.
biz
I really agree with you, Theresa. You did such a good job.
theresa
Thank you.
biz
You are welcome. Okay. So… I’m gonna try and make this a short story, guys, but oh well. Both kids have had to go to the orthodontist. And have had to go and get all their little teeth x-rays and all the stuff done. And with Kat, they have recommended—along with the braces—pulling teeth. Four adult teeth. This has been said to us before. Y’know. When we should’ve done braces two years ago. And I just—I don’t wanna pull the adult teeth!
theresa
Does Kat have too many adult teeth?
biz
No. They don’t have too many adult teeth. They say that there’s not enough room for the teeth as the mouth develops. And so they wanna take the teeth—no, guys, I mean it. It is okay to not share orthodontist stories with me. ‘Cause this is not part of the genius. Part of the genius is I have a long history of tooth loss. I don’t have many of my adult teeth. [Theresa laughs.] Many.
theresa
I’m sorry for laughing. It’s actually not funny at all.
biz
It’s okay! ‘Cause ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!
theresa
It’s funny—it’s not okay. It’s funny the way you say it.
biz
Yes. Because I’ve learned to cope with it. So big surprise, this experience is a trigger for me. And I made the choice—I just sat there and I said, “You know what? I’m not gonna sign this stuff today. We’re not gonna agree to the procedure or any of this work yet. I actually have a specialist. Because I don’t have many adult teeth, I see what is called a ‘prosthodontist.’ Somebody who specializes in prosthetic oral treatment. And if anybody knows mouths and sizes and spaces and the benefit or necessity of losing adult teeth? I feel secure in this person giving me advice.” And so I called them. And I spoke to them and I said, y’know, “These are my concerns. Of course I wanna do what is best for Kat, but I need—I need your eyes on this.” And so—and they, of course, ‘cause we’ve been through a lot together, said, “We’ll call the orthodontist. We’ll get all of the panels sent over to us and we will look at it and get back to you next week. Of course we’ll take a look.” And here’s the thing—none of this necessarily—[Laughs.] I called my mother then right after that. And Mama was like, “Look. No matter what you wind up doing and no matter what the outcome, you will always, always question if it was the right thing.” And that sucks. And I know that that’s true. But I felt like I took the control where I could take the control to find the information from sources that I really trust? So that I can… make a decision that I can live with. And that—that is the genius.
theresa
That is so good. It’s so good.
biz
Thank you.
caller
[Answering machine beeps.] Hello! This is Jennifer from [inaudible]. I’m calling with a genius that may turn into a fail. I like to sew and right now my girls are playing with stick magnets and picking up pins off the ground. But they’re also taking pins out of the pin cushion and scattering them on the floor and they’ll pick them back up again. They’re occupied. I’m sewing. We’re all happy. But again, this may be a fail later. Thank you! Bye.
biz
Sure! It’s like giving your kid a mason jar in a bathtub right? [Laughs.] This is fun for now. [Laughs.] Yeah. I—yes. Look. The genius is that you recognized that you had a moment to do something you needed to do. Sure. This could result in somebody getting stuck.
theresa
Or—
biz
Yeah, what?
theresa
I would argue that this is less dangerous than the mason jar in the bathtub, actually. [Laughs.]
biz
[Laughs.] No! No! No! No, no, no! What are you talking about? But I’m setting my mason jar fail as the standard. [Laughs.] Alright. Fair enough. This is not as bad as giving your child glass to play with in the bathtub. [Theresa laughs.] This is more of a, “Oops! I spilled hot sauce on the floor!” Is that—I don’t—[Laughs.]
theresa
Yeah! Yeah! No—it’s—what I’m relating to about this is there’s this thing that happens when your kids are some aged past toddler. Like a little older than toddler. Where you start to realize stuff that was a huge no-no? All of a sudden you’re like, “Oh, well they can hold—” Like if a kid finds a thumbtack and brings it to me, it used to be like, “OH my god! You’re holding a thumbtack!” [Biz laughs.] But now it’s like, “Oh, thanks for the thumbtack. Thanks for picking that up.” And I don’t—like, the worst that can happen is a quick “ouch!” and then it’s like—there’s no—
biz
Oh, that ain’t the worst that could happen. I know I’m just kidding! [Laughs.] I’m just—
theresa
They’re probably not gonna swallow it. Right? Like, they’re probably not gonna swallow it.
biz
“And then I lost my eye.” [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.]
theresa
Okay. Alright.
biz
Alright. Look. Here’s the thing. You’re a genius. You’re a genius for accepting the risk for that moment of pleasure. Good, good job.
theresa
Yes.
biz
Failures.
clip
[Dramatic orchestral music plays in the background.] Theresa: [In a voice akin to the Wicked Witch of the West] Fail. Fail. Fail. FAIL! [Timpani with foot pedal engaged for humorous effect.] Biz: [Calmly] You suck! [Biz and Theresa repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss their respective failures of the week.]
biz
Fail me, Theresa.
theresa
I… ate… hummus that expired two months ago.
biz
Oooooo! Blech! Wow!
theresa
And I was eating it—okay.
crosstalk
Theresa: It was one of those— Biz: Did you eat it for a while?
theresa
Kinda! [Biz laughs.] Like I was—so here’s what happened. I got it from the fridge. I didn’t remember that we had hummus, but it was unopened. And I thought, “Oh, it must be from the last time Jesse went to Trader Joe’s or whatever. Not that long ago.” Well it was from a prior trip to Trader Joe’s. And so I opened the wrapper. It looked okay. I was eating it. It did taste weird. It tasted weird! And I was like, “Huh. This tastes weird. Oh well, I’m hungry. I don’t have—I’m just gonna eat some.” It was like a rushing type thing. And then more time passed while I was eating it. And then I thought, “I’m just gonna look and see.” I probably had three tablespoons of it by then. And two months! I mean, we’re not just talking a little past—
biz
Like, a week.
theresa
Two months expired.
biz
Would’ve been pulled from the shelves by that point.
theresa
Definitely. Definitely.
biz
I like how this story sets up where it sounds like, “I found surprise hummus!” [Theresa laughs.] “Where did this hummus come from? It’s surprise hummus! IT’s all for me!” And you’re like—[Laughs.] I also like the idea of, “This tastes funny. Did he get the garlic hummus? What is this? What is this? Did he get the—"
theresa
“Is this like a fruity one? Like did they make a fruity one now?”
biz
[Through laughter] Oh god! Gross! Wow! [Theresa laughs.] I—yeah! That’s—that’s… that is… I am so broken as a person these days that it—I’m not sure what could impress me as a fail. I’m like, “Eh, Theresa at the two-month-old hummus!” Y’know, like, I don’t—yeah.
theresa
It’s true.
biz
Well, you’re doing—ugh. You’re doing—that’s just gross. You’re just gross.
theresa
Yeah. Thanks.
biz
You’re just gross. Okay. I believe I have mentioned that we’ve been tearing up the backyard. To re—and the joy I have gotten from being out there. In fact, during the Drive, some of you watched me tear it up and find treasures and all this kind of fun stuff. We’ve done a great job. We have ripped up almost all of the backyard. And as I mentioned at the beginning of the show, my parents are officially moving out here and we are now officially deciding to build a little house in the backyard. SO we can’t do any of the work that we were gonna do on the backyard. [Theresa laughs.] And so just in time for summer, we just have turned-over dirt backyard. So every time there’s a wind, all of the seating just gets covered in dirt? And there’s no—it’s just dirt, guys! Like… dirt. Dirrrrt. It’s not…
crosstalk
Theresa: That’s not where you want to go and hang out. Yeah. It’s like a punishment. Biz: It’s not anything! It’s not anything! Yeah. It’s the opposite. Yeah.
theresa
Like, “Go out in the backyard.”
biz
“Go out in the backyard. Try not to step—wear shoes! God. Wear shoes.”
theresa
“Wear boots, for that matter.”
biz
Yeah. “No, you can’t turn the hose on.” [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.] Oh, and all the neighborhood cats. [Both groan.] They find it. Are thankful. They are very grateful. To us.
theresa
Yeah. Well, you’re doing a service for them.
biz
Ugh. I’m doing a service for them, but a disservice for us.
caller
[Answering machine beeps.] Hi. So I’m calling with a fail because my husband told me I needed to call and report this fail. [Noises from small child play in background.] We stopped at the bookstore with our twenty-two-month-old daughter while we were waiting for our pizza to get finished, and I walked out and put her in her car seat and her dad was coming out at the same time from the pizza place and he usually rides in the back with her and so I just started driving because I assumed she was fastened in and we got, I dunno, a little ways down the road and she’s just turning around in her car seat like there’s no tomorrow and we’re very confused and then my husband said, “Did you not strap her in?” And I had not strapped her in. And we would’ve just driven home without our daughter being strapped to her car seat. SO I am failing. I am failing. And he’s here to cosign. [Second voice: Yeah!] Thanks! You guys are doing a great job.
biz
I like that he’s there right now next to you and he’s like, “You better call this in. Forgive me father; it has been ten months since my last confession.” Hey, also—supportive dad? This could also have been your fault. [Laughs.] I feel like—
theresa
Yeah! It’s everybody’s fault.
biz
Yeah! It really actually—yes. It is everybody’s fault. Well… obviously, Theresa and I think that children should be buckled in. [Theresa laughs.] But I always like to share these calls because it’s gonna happen. It’s gonna happen. You’re gonna—there’s a really good chance it’s going to happen. I can remember days where I was so like, “Aaaack!” fried that I would be taking my Kat to school and I didn’t have Ellis with me, but I would have this sheer moment of panic that I left Ellis somewhere! Like just in a car seat! In a store! SO I haven’t. But you have failed in—I don’t know—I don’t know—trusting that your husband would take care of it. [Both laugh.] And you are not alone.
theresa
Let’s be honest—you guys were just thinking about your pizza.
biz
Pizza! I know. You were. That pizza smell. That ride of shame smelled delicious.
theresa
Yeah. [Laughs.] [Biz laughs.]
music
“Mom Song” by Adira Amram. Mellow piano music with lyrics. You are the greatest mom I’ve ever known. I love you, I love you. When I have a problem, I call you on the phone. I love you, I love you. [Music fades out.]
music
Inspirational keyboard music plays in background.
biz
One Bad Mother is supported in part by Billie, the maker of the award-winning razor.
theresa
Self-care and routine are so important right now. Whatever we’re using to get ourselves ready for the day should make us feel amazing. Meet Billie, for those days when you want an extra-smooth shave. This is a really nice razor. It’s very high quality. And it comes with a very cute magnetic holder that you can put way up high in the shower so that it’s just for you and nobody else. [Biz laughs.] You can go to MyBillie.com to get their starter kit for just $9, which comes with that magnetic holder, their award-winning razor, and two refill blades.
promo
Music: Dramatic, suspenseful string music. Narrator: From the internationally acclaimed creators of Who Shot Ya? comes the movie podcast Maximum Film. Starring producer and film festival programmer Drea Clark as a woman bound by passion. Drea Clark: [Decadently.] I saw this eight months ago on the festival circuit and I loved it. Narrator: Film critic Alonso Duralde as a man corrupted by greed. Alonso Duralde: [Incensed.] Why watch one Hallmark Christmas movie when I could watch seven!? Narrator: And comedian Ify Nwadiwe as a man protecting a love that society simply won’t accept. Ify Nwadiwe: [In tears.] I think Pacific Rim is a perfect movie. And if you can’t accept that, then I want you out of my life! Narrator: From the makers of the movie podcast Who Shot Ya? comes Maximum Film. [Upbeat music fades in.] Ify: That’s right, we changed the name of our show to Maximum Film. Alonso: But don’t worry! We’re still a movie review show that isn’t just a bunch of straight, white dudes. Drea: So, tune into Maximum Film! At MaximumFun.org or wherever you get your podcasts. [Music fades out.]
promo
Jesse Thorn: Hey, it’s Jesse. What you’re about to hear is real. [Sound of phone ringing.] Chris: Hey, this is Chris. Jesse: Hi, Chris. It’s Jesse, calling from Maximum Fun. [Plodding, goofy music plays in background.] Chris: [Through laughter] Hey, Jesse. Jesse: I heard that you got into a car accident. Chris: Yeah. I was listning to [through laughter] Stop Podcasting Yourself and I just laughed so hard that I slammed into a construction barrier. [Laughs.] [Jesse laughs.] Jesse: Do you remember what is was that was so funny? Chris: I will never forget, I’m sure. They started talking about Vegas and the, y’know, “If it happens here it stays here” and that slogan. And Graham was talking about, “Oh, y’know, wasn’t there some other slogan for another commercial?” Graham Clark: Oh, it was like a commercial for food and it said like, “Whwatever’s in there stays in there”? I can’t remember what it was—clams, or something? [Multiple people laugh.] Dave Shumka: Clams? Chris: It was so ridiculous. And man, I got lightheaded [through laughter] I was laughing so hard. [Jesse laughs.] Chris: Next thing I know [through laughter] smashed [inaudible]. They are—they are just really, really funny. Jesse: So I talked to Dave and Graham from Stop Podcasting Yourself. We would like to pay your car repair bill. Is that okay? Chris: That—I mean, that would be super nice, actually. I really—thank you. I appreciate that. [Music fades.]
biz
Alright, everybody! It is time to settle in and listen to a mom have a breakdown.
caller
[Answering machine beeps.] Hi, One Bad Mother! This is a rant. So I just spent $6,500 on braces for my child. I just—I can’t—$6,500! To pay someone to torture my kid, basically, because she won’t stop whining about how much it hurts. And I paid for that! And do you have any idea what I would’ve preferred to do with $6,500? Oh my god! I could give you a list a mile long of lots of things I would rather spend $6,500 on, and I can’t—I can’t complain to anybody about this because my daughter’s the one who’s in pain and stuck at home. So I’m complaining to you guys because I know that you see me and you care and that’s way too much money to spend on something as miserable as braces. [Biz laughs.] This sucks. I hope everybody else is having a better day. And we’re all doing a great job, right? [Laughs.] Thank you for the Hotline and the podcast. I love you guys. Bye.
biz
Yes. You are doing a good job. And yes, this is who you call to complain to. Braces… are… terrifying. Not like the actual act of braces? But like—all the—like I just said, we were at the orthodontist. I didn’t get into the cost. I didn’t even get into the fear and panic and like they kinda set ya, “We’ll separately talk about that.” And they—[Laughs.] Like, “Here’s this sheet.” It’s like, “Am I buying a car?!” And it’s very stressful. And of course—of course you are a good parent. You know that this is really shitty for your kid. I—that is—that just shows what a good job you are doing? But that does not alleviate the stress of that cost! It’s really—that’s a—you’re right! I think we should actually set up a thread of just, “What would you spend that $6,500 on if not braces?”
theresa
Oh yeah. I would love to read that. Yes.
biz
Yeah. I would spend it on candles that smell good. Not $6,500 worth? But like… y’know.
theresa
That’s one of the items.
biz
One of the items. Some wine that I like. A weekend at a nice hotel. What would you? What’s the top of your head? You have $6,500 you don’t have to spend it on your kids. What?
theresa
Oh, well I’m just thinking—like, I was thinking—assume you have to spend it on your kids. Let’s go to Disneyland or let’s go to Hawaii or something.
biz
Alright. Fair enough. Fair enough. You’ve been [through laughter] the pandemic’s ruined you!
theresa
Oh yeah.
biz
Don’t spend it on your children! You spend it on yourself! [Laughs.]
theresa
That—they’re—what is that? What is “self”?
biz
I don’t know, but I am willing to use that money to find out. [Theresa laughs.]
theresa
Great.
biz
Look, you’re doing a very good job. It is—[sighs.] It’s such a stressful thing that you’re going through. And you have to—there really is a point when you’ve had to do something for your kids that they need to do for, y’know, medical reasons or whatever. Like braces. And you have to be able to have the space to listen to them complain about it ‘cause that is their right. At the same time, I know there’s also that place of, “Okay. I’ve heard that.” [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.] “You’re right. I’ve heard it. Y’know, you get three days to complain and then after that I don’t wanna hear it.” Right? Like there’s no cap, y’know, for that? And so you’ve gotta like [groans.] I dunno. I think you’re amazing.
theresa
Yeah. You’re doing an amazing job. You really are. And that is so rant-worthy. Like, that is exactly the kind of thing where you do it and you do it ‘cause you feel like you have to and yo know you have to and you know it’s the right choice for you, btu that doesn’t make it fine. You still need to rant about that in order to get through it.
biz
Everybody? You are all doing a great job. I just—I—I feel like… we are evolving past “What did we learn today?” And we need to get straight to the heart of what this show is all about. And that is reminding you what an absolutely excellent job you are doing. Because you are. As always, we’ll link everybody up to where they can find out how to get copies of The Great Whipplethorp Bug Collection as well as all the other resources we tend to list in our show notes to help get through this wonderful pandemic. You’re all amazing. Theresa? You are also amazing. You are doing such a good job.
theresa
Thanks, Biz. So are you.
biz
Thank you. And we’ll talk to you next week!
crosstalk
Biz and Theresa: Byeeee!
music
“Mama Blues” by Cornbread Ted and the Butterbeans. Strumming acoustic guitar with harmonica and lyrics. I got the lowdown momma blues Got the the lowdown momma blues Gots the lowdown momma blues The lowdown momma blues. Gots the lowdown momma blues Got the lowdown momma blues You know that’s right. [Music fades somewhat, plays in background of dialogue.]
biz
We’d like to thank MaxFun; our producer, Gabe Mara; our husbands, Stefan Lawrence and Jesse Thorn; our perfect children, who provide us with inspiration to say all these horrible things; and of course, you, our listeners. To find out more about the songs you heard on today’s podcast and more about the show, please go to MaximumFun.org/onebadmother. For information about live shows, our book and press, please check out OneBadMotherPodcast.com.
theresa
One Bad Mother is a member of the Maximum Fun family of podcasts. To support the show go to MaximumFun.org/donate. [Music continues for a while before fading out.]
music
A cheerful ukulele chord.
speaker 2
Comedy and culture.
speaker 3
Artist owned—
speaker 4
—Audience supported.
About the show
One Bad Mother is a comedy podcast hosted by Biz Ellis about motherhood and how unnatural it sometimes is. We aren’t all magical vessels!
Join us every week as we deal with the thrills and embarrassments of motherhood and strive for less judging and more laughing.
Call in your geniuses and fails: 206-350-9485. For booking and guest ideas, please email onebadmother@maximumfun.org. To keep up with One Bad Mother on social media, follow @onebadmothers on Twitter and Instagram.
Get in touch with the show
onebadmother@maximumfun.org
@OneBadMothers
@onebadmothers
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