Transcript
biz
Hi. I’m Biz.
theresa
And I’m Theresa.
biz
Due to the pandemic, we bring you One Bad Mother straight from our homes—including such interruptions as: children! Animal noises! And more! So let’s all get a little closer while we have to be so far apart. And remember—we are doing a good job.
music
“Summon the Rawk” by Kevin MacLeod. Driving electric guitar and heavy drums. [Continues through dialogue.]
biz
This week on _One Bad Mother—_playing house with your best friend! We talk about friendship before and after kids with actress-comedians Jessica St. Clair and Lennon Parham. Plus, Biz has a bad feeling about this.
crosstalk
Biz and caller: Woooo!
caller
Hey, Biz!
biz
Hi!
caller
I am driving. [Biz laughs.] I’m actually in Reno, Nevada driving up to Truckee because that’s where I live. But I just saw a license plate that made me think about you and I just wanted to say… what it is. And then I have a question for you. [Biz laughs.] So the license plate said, “BANJO1.” So my question for you is, have you played your banjo lately? Anyways, I am doing an okay job. I… [Biz laughs.] My middle kid has a cold so all the kids are home. ‘Cause of COVID. ‘Cause even though he has a negative COVID test, no school for a kid. Even with no symptoms. So I’m hanging in, but that’s my question for you. Have you played your banjo? [Biz laughs.] Have a good day! Bye.
biz
I—maybe we should turn this whole segment into a “Woo! Ask me a question!” [Laughs.] ‘Cause it’s not like I haven’t shared enough personal information on this show. First of all, I think you’re doing an amazing job and I know you say you’re hanging in there but with kids sick and home—when you know they really could go to school ‘cause they ain’t that sick ‘cause it’s just like a runny nose ‘cause of COVID—that sucks. And the line, “No school for kids! No school for kids. The 2020 story. No school for kids.” Which I think is gonna be right there in connection with what I have a bad feeling about. Anyway, it is time for thank-you’s. [Singing] Thank youuu, thank youuu! We don’t have a theme song for thank-you’s… yet! [Regular voice] Okay, guys? Pandemic—still happening. Still a need to be thanking. Even when this pandemic is over—a hundred years from now—we will still want to be thanking all of those people who have gone above and beyond or really just gone out and done their fucking job and deserve some appreciation and respect! So! Here we are! Time for thank-you’s! [Singing] Everyone in the medical profession—you’re—you’re so great! [Regular voice] I don’t know if I need to elaborate, but if you would like me to elaborate because you need to hear it, I am still banging my mental pots and pans for you in celebration. The burnout has got to be just tangible at this point. Thank you for continuing to show up. Thank you for continuing to take care of us. Y’know. You’re nurses. You’re doctors. You’re EMTs. You’re literally taking care of us and I really appreciate it. Thank you to all the people who work within the medical facilities, from the people who help clean those facilities so that they stay sanitized and safe for all of us, to those who provide the personal protection devices, to those who know how to operate the oxygen tanks. Everybody! Everybody! Appointment-makers? Whew! You have the patience of a saint. You’re amazing. You are all doing amazing. And I really see you and I really appreciate you. Teachers? Teachers! [Singing] School’s almost out! For summer! Duh, duh, duh, duh, da-duh! [Laughs.] [Regular voice] I’m not sure if it’s gonna be that relaxing this year, either. But school—teachers—faculty—staff—all of you, you are amazing. I cannot tell you the anger I have at the lack of pay and support for teachers. By our government. Or just our—how we’ve decided things should go in this country in terms of salaries is enough to make my head fall off and me wanna kick it through the field goal. You guys deserve CEO-level paychecks. And… your classrooms should be teeming with the supplies that you need. I think you are amazing and I will forever work towards making that happen for you. Librarians? Libraries? You’re starting to open back up. Hey, everybody—libraries are starting summer reading programs! Go to your library! I just found out my library will check out Switch games! Guys, go to your libraries online and see what is available to you! They want to let you borrow things! [Laughs.] It’s so great! Thank you to people getting their vaccines; people taking their vaccines; people giving vaccines; people signing you up for vaccines; people calling to remind you of your vaccines—thank you, vaccines. Everybody, the list goes on and on. Everybody from people who are still making food available and happen at grocery stories to the post office. I know that things are quote-unquote “returning back to normal,” but it’s not. Not for you. [Laughs.] Not for people who’ve been working nonstop since this thing began to make life even resemble normalcy. So once again, thank you. I see you, and you are doing an amazing job.
biz
Speaking of the pandemic, this is how I am. [Laughs.] Okay. I have been touching my banjo every which way. [Laughs.] I have—I’m gonna go there! I have been finger-picking my banjo. That’s right—Scruggs style! If that doesn’t sound sexy, I don’t know what is! I have been—thank you very, very much—I am slowly chicken-pecking my way through and it’s very meditative. I have no goals of being on the Grand Ole Opry or Austin City Limits despite my banjo teacher constantly saying to me, “Here’s a little lick you can do when you’re just in a jam session and somebody’s like, ‘Play this!’” I’m like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa!” [Laughs.] “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I’m… it’s okay. We’re—we don’t—we’re never gonna be in a jam situation. Alright?” Anyway. So… it also—your story reminds me of a license tag that we saw [through laughter] once. Okay. We were here. We just moved to Los Angeles—Pasadena—and we’re driving and Kat, who at the time was probably like three, maybe? I don’t think Ellis was around. But we are driving behind a car whose license plate says, “UKEHUNT.” And we always—whenever we see license plates, we always say them out loud to try and figure out what they are. And I’m like, “Huh? What’s that? Uke hunt. A uke. Uke? Hunt. Uke… hunt. Like, for ukuleles?” And Stefan was like, [through laughter] “Jesus Christ, Elizabeth.” And I was like, “Oh! Oh! It’s not about ukuleles!” [Laughs.] Still my favorite license tag I’ve ever—I can’t believe that person got away with it but they did. Anyway, you are doing a wonderful job and thank you for asking me about the banjo! This is—this is where I am, guys. Actually a little—Gabe had a nice word for me today. “Bumpy.” It’s been a little bumpy. It’s been a little bumpy. I may have mixed feelings about my children. [Laughs.] I may have mixed feelings about summer. I may have mixed feelings about all the things I can and cannot control—mainly the ones I cannot control. I feel fine about things I can control. But with vaccinations, and basically this sort of running theme of things quote-unquote “slowly getting back to normal,” though that sentence is not well-defined by all the people using it, I worry that that leads to us all feeling like everything is actually back to normal. It’s a very quick—a very fast slope to go from “things might return to normal” to “everything is normal and—in fact—it’s over. In fact, it’s almost as if it didn’t even happen.” And I had this moment when I was talking about this with Stefan. Y’know, ‘cause I’m still confused as to like, “What are we doing? I don’t—it’s not over, is it?” I said, “Oh my god. Oh my god. If everybody runs out and fucks this up this summer— [Laughs.] And we can’t go back to school in September because everybody ran around as if this never happened and it was still not out there and there were still not threats of rising numbers, I’m going to break. Just like in half. I’m gonna break right down the middle. It won’t be a clean break.” I do not think my children will be able to handle—I think they will break further. The two days a week that they Zoom school now are just shitshows. They’re just shit days. They’re just like… no one can do it. I feel so bad for the teachers that they even have to pretend like the remote days are even valid. Because everybody’s “Rawaaww!” all over the place. They’ve tasted the back-in-person and that is where they want to live. You can’t taste the in-person and then go back to Zoom! You just can’t! So yeah. That is my new state of anxiety and fear and I apologize for that now being planted in all of your minds. [Laughs.] Ya welcome! This is not something I want to be right about down the road. But what has of course gotten me through the pandemic is not only having a friend in my own house—the guy that I married—but also having friends around me like Theresa and others and I think that ties in nicely to what we’re gonna talk about today, which is friendships before and after and during kids.
music
Banjo strums; cheerful banjo music continues through dialogue.
theresa
Please—take a moment to remember: If you’re friends of the hosts of One Bad Mother, you should assume that when we talk about other moms, we’re talking about you.
biz
If you are married to the host of One Bad Mother, we definitely are talking about you.
theresa
Nothing we say constitutes professional parenting advice.
biz
Biz and Theresa’s children are brilliant, lovely, and exceedingly extraordinary.
theresa
Nothing said on this podcast about them implies otherwise. [Banjo music fades out.] [Biz, Jessica, and Lennon repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss the weekly topic.]
biz
This week I am so excited to welcome two wonderfully funny, talented people. First, there is Jessica St. Clair who is an actress and a comedian and who can currently be seen on HBO’s Avenue 5 and the Netflix’s Space Force. She can also be seen on ABC’s The Goldbergs and American Housewife and in such films as Bridesmaids and She’s Out of My League. And she’s currently together with June Diane Raphael. She hosts the new instant hit podcast Deep Dive. Lennon Parham is an actress and comedian who will next be seen on HBO Max series Minx. Prior to that she starred and directed in the ABC sitcom Bless This Mess. Among her many film and tv credits, you can see her as Senior Advisor Karen Collins whose specialized field was—quote—“common sense” on HBO’s Veep and rocking shoulder pads as Liz Fleming, the feminist math teacher on ABC Schooled. Guess what, guys? They know each other. They both gained notoriety while performing at the Upright Citizens Brigade theatre. They host the cult-favorite podcast WOMP it Up! And together the co-created and costarred in NBC’s Best Friends Forever and USA’s critically-acclaimed comedy Playing House. [Singing] Do, do, do, dooo! Welcome! Welcome!
crosstalk
Jessica: Thank you! Lennon: That was—was that the longest intro that you’ve ever had to do? ‘Cause it feels like it might be. That was a double-whammy. Biz: You’re welcome. Did you like that? No. No. Did it feel like that?
biz
Well, we’re not having you on here to talk about your comedy expertise, ladies! [Stuart laughs.]
lennon
Although I mean—parenting? Comedy? It’s one and the same.
jessica
It’s all the same.
biz
It is. Painful and—
crosstalk
Lennon: Truth in comedy. You’re so often not landing with your audience. Often [inaudible] practice bombing. Yeah. Biz: —it’s not funny. A lot. Truth in comedy. Something women shouldn’t be doing. [Laughs.] Jessica: [Inaudible.]
biz
That’s right! Before we get into talking about what I wanna talk to you guys about today, I wanna ask you what we ask all of our guests, which is—who lives in your house? Jessica, I’m gonna start with you. Jessica, who lives in your house?
jessica
Alright. Who lives in my house is a seven-and-a-half-year-old named Bebe. Girl. My daughter. And we have a very old, old schnauzer named Emma. A grandma. And that’s it!
lennon
Wait a second. What else?
jessica
Oh, my husband. [All laugh.] My husband. That’s right. He’s also there. He’s currently taking care of my seven-and-a-half-year-old so I should remember him. A shoutout to my husband! I’m like—who was it? Hilary Swank? Who didn’t thank her husband? Was it Reese? Who didn’t thank her husband in the Oscars? Remember that? And then they divorced like—
crosstalk
Jessica: —six days later. Biz: Five seconds later?
lennon
There was a Ben Affleck—remember when Ben Affleck was like, “It’s work.” [Laughs.]
jessica
Oh yeah. Whenever you say it’s work? You are on the way out.
crosstalk
Jessica: Oh, you’re already divorced. You’re already— Lennon: It was Alex Gardner.
biz
Cue. Definitely a cue—an alert word. Alright. Good to know about where the priorities fall in the house. Sometimes the dogs get listed first. That’s fine. [Jessica laughs.] Let’s see how it shakes out over Lennon’s house!
jessica
Well now Lennon’s gonna act like, “My loving husband is number one in my life!”
biz
I know. Lennon reached out to me before the show and was like, “Could you make me look really good? Better than Jessica?” And I was like—
jessica
Not hard!
biz
Yes. I will.
lennon
She’ll fuck up within the first five minutes, so yeah. That’s not hard.
crosstalk
Lennon: Well I was late. I was late. Doesn’t that count? Biz: Alright, Lennon. Who lives in your house? Yeah.
crosstalk
Lennon: Well first of all, I live here. And that’s the most important thing. Biz: Oh yes you do! No it’s not. [Laughs.] Jessica: Wow. Wow.
lennon
Self-care, guys. Self-care. Self-love. And then my husband lives with me, Javier. And then our daughter Saraya. She’s eight going on 17 and Kai, our four-and-a-half-year-old little boy, and then our cat, Nina Simone Jackson. [Laughs.]
biz
Very nice. I like Nina Simone Jackson as a name for a cat. Anyway! You guys are friends. [All laugh.] You guys have been working together for a long time. We’ve established that in the bios. All the different projects. And in fact many of your projects involve you guys being friends. In the actual projects. But before we touch on that, I wanted to know a little bit about how—how long have you guys been friends? And y’know… who’s the better one?
crosstalk
Lennon: Who’s the better one? Jessica: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.
lennon
Well it’s all about competition, as you know. Friendship.
biz
Yeah, I know. You’re from the South. I know! I know how to be a friend!
jessica
[Through laughter] “I know how to be a friend!”
lennon
Listen, I really did get into it in elementary school there was a baking competition. And I made a cream cheese pound cake? And I lost to the daughter of the girl whose family owned the bakery. The town bakery. And I was like, “I call a bullshit.” Because I did this in an oven—not even a gas oven! An electric oven. And you have never seen such moisture in a cake. Anyway. You know how it goes.
biz
I do! I do. It’s power. It’s all about power.
jessica
Well you know Lennon and I—we did meet when there were very few women at our theatre.
biz
At UCB.
jessica
Yeah. Because you know it just didn’t attract lots of women in the very beginning. You know, listen. It’s only our experience, but the UCB—because one of the founders was Amy Poehler—she actually was the reason a lot of us came and stayed. But I do remember coming in and it being all men and being so uncomfortable. I didn’t know what to do. I didn’t know how to relate. I thought I was gonna quit. And I remember my friend Kristen said, “You just have to find a broom and start sweeping.” ‘Cause I was an intern. [Biz laughs.] “And nobody questions somebody with a broom.” And so I did! I swept for like the first year. But I didn’t meet, y’know, like—we—it was hard because there were so few women, we were all placed on different teams. And so maybe you were lucky if there was another girl on the team. Maybe there was another two girls. So in my group there was three girls, including myself. So it was a while before we made our really close girl friendships and I would say it wasn’t until I got to L.A. that I really found my group of girls. And Lennon, of course, is numero uno! [Lennon laughs.] But we didn’t meet until we were out here. We never performed together. We only admired each other from afar.
lennon
Well Jess was already on—like, she—when I first came—I mean, she—I’m the older one here. But when I got to UCB Jess was already on a House Harold team called “Mother”? Which—if I told you who was on it—you would be like, “Oh my god. They’re all famous!” Right? So when I got there I was still taking classes so she was like already legend status and so when I would pass her—
crosstalk
Jessica: The legend was in my own mind. No it isn’t. No, but— Lennon: It’s true!
jessica
Lennon just recently said when we had our first date Lennon was like, “I was nervous because—"
lennon
Please do an impression of me always. [Laughs.]
jessica
“I was nervous!” [Biz laughs.] “’Cause you were such a bigshot at the theatre!” I’m like, “Oh really? I was still cleaning toilets. When I was 29.”
biz
You were still with a broom in your hand. Yeah.
jessica
I was still with a broom in my hand. But anyway.
lennon
Yeah. But when I—my first team had a bunch of ladies on it. So it was—I mean, it was like half—
jessica
You were the next generation. Normally it was just like one woman for every seven dudes? But honestly I always felt very comfortable around it ‘cause I mean I’d always been—I dunno—wearing the big boy pants, kind of. You know what I mean? To be a comedian or to try to be the funny one in a group, it was just kinda easier with boys somehow. Because that was just the makeup of every comedy group that you came across. So—
biz
So you guys have created—you met out here. You created shows. Your two TV shows—Best Friends Forever and Playing House—were very much about your friendship. And not just about your friendship, but like—I think Laverne & Shirley. I think Kate & Allie. When I think about shows that allowed women’s friendships to be the forefront of the stories.
lennon
Yeah. Those were our points of reference. So we did it. We really did it. [Multiple people laugh.]
biz
You did it! You nailed it. I as a person of my age knows exactly those two shows. Very formative shows of my life. I know that back in my New York sketch days, you would get comments like, “That’s kind of a woman’s joke.” Right? Like there was like—
jessica
Or I remember they were very upset that a girl on my team, Tara Copeland, who’s so funny—but we would a lot of times have sleepover scenes. And they were like, “Enough with the sleepover scenes!” And we’re like, “You know what? I would argue there hasn’t been enough sleepover scenes on this stage. So we’re never gonna stop!” And then we just kept doing sleepover scenes.
biz
Yeah! I mean, how many times am I gonna have to watch you guys kick each other in the nuts for a laugh?
jessica
Yeah, or be in space. Men love space.
biz
They do.
lennon
They love space.
biz
They do. But with—
crosstalk
Lennon: You’re like on two space shows right now. Jessica: Space shows.
lennon
She’s currently on two space shows.
jessica
Both created by men! They love space.
biz
And the only woman. I’m just kidding. [Laughs.] So here you are pitching this show not only about two women friends but like, you guys bring the intimacy of friendship. Right? It’s definitely the feeling of when you have a friendship like this and you are the other person in the room with these two friends, you’re really just there to watch these two friends. [Laughs.] Right? [Multiple people laugh.] And they’ll circle back. They’ll pick you up. But y’know, they are in their own rhythm. Their own, y’know, pacing. Their own language. How were you guys able to pitch that and was there any pushback or were they like, “You know what? Here at the CW we have WildCats so we already are there on the same page.”
jessica
Well it was hard to find a home for it. And we actually had to—both times—we didn’t have to, but I do believe we had to in order to show them what we were gonna do. But in order to—a script wouldn’t have really cut it. So we always said, “Give us a very little amount of money and we will shoot it and show it to you.” And so we did that with Best Friends Forever. We wrote a script and they weren’t willing to give us a full pilot order. They said, “Y’know, why don’t you shoot a couple minutes?” And we were like, “Give us the money and we’ll shoot all through.” And we delivered 30 minutes back to them. And the same thing with Playing House. They were like, “Write us a script.” And we were like, “No, give us this money and we’ll just deliver you back a pilot.” Because I think the way women talk and the way they overlap each other and the way—on a page, we don’t necessarily do set-up/punchline, set-up/punchline all the time. So we did have to do it a different way.
lennon
But it’s also like… when you get a script, a lot of times the script can sing. But if there’s not chemistry between the characters—which are cast randomly, right?—so you’ve paid all this money for this script but then you cast two people that they just—
jessica
They’ve never met.
lennon
—it feels like they don’t know each other because they don’t. Y’know?
jessica
Right. It’s like lightning in a bottle if they have met.
lennon
I feel like we brought that undeniable chemistry? So when we pitched, basically we’re setting up the world but we’re also like… slipping into a scene. And so it’s there for you to see and feel and you just like… kinda want it. You know what I mean? Because that comes with the package deal.
biz
Alright! Friendship! Friendship. Okay. Pre-, post-children. And during children! So your kids are not—they’re different ages.
jessica
They’re five months apart. Five months apart, our daughter.
biz
Oh, really?
jessica
See, we did—see, we did it right. Because—and I would say I did it right. Because Lennon got pregnant—
lennon
I’m gonna murder you right now. I’m going to murder you.
jessica
Lennon got pregnant and I was like—
crosstalk
Lennon: Mad. She was mad at me. No. She was mad at me! Biz: “I should do that.” Jessica: Well I was mad at her because I thought—
lennon
And I had been saying, “We gotta have kids. I’m gonna have a kid.” And she was like, “I don’t like this idea.” [Laughs.]
jessica
I didn’t want anything to change. I really didn’t.
lennon
And she didn’t wanna slow down! ‘Cause then we would—we were—y’know. We’d just done Best Friends Forever. But that was the first thing I knew when Best Friends Forever got cancelled? Was that I need to have a kid because I could not hang my happiness on someone’s decision—someone’s, like, random decision about something that I had basically just given birth to.
biz
Yeah. Well we are talking about the TV show? [Laughs.]
crosstalk
Jessica and Lennon: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
biz
Okay. Good.
lennon
But I mean, that’s what it felt like. ‘Cause we both—I mean, we both had—God, we had both been to the hospital. We had both been in the ER at points during this ‘cause it was our first real project. It was blood, sweat, and tears. We didn’t know how to set healthy boundaries. None of that. And so I was like, “Well, god, if I have a baby? At least somebody will leave me alone for at least two weeks.”
jessica
Isn’t it interesting?
biz
Did you get left alone for two weeks after you had a baby?
lennon
Yes! I did! I did.
biz
I love this notion of like… blood, sweat, and tears and not knowing how to set boundaries. And I am eleven years, two kids in—boundaries are still a fucking joke. Boundaries are like, “Look at me! I did it! I have a boundary!” And then—
lennon
It’s always a challenge.
jessica
My child is modeling good boundaries for me.
biz
For you! Yeah! Exactly!
jessica
Yeah. She was like, “Well I just said, ‘No, I didn’t wanna do it.’” I’m like, “What was that like? Tell me more? How did you get the courage?” So—
biz
“Are you still friends?” It’s interesting. You said the thing about “I was so mad that you wanted to have kids.” Right? I appreciate you saying it ‘cause that’s actually a real thing, even though we sometimes laugh our way through it. That is… same with getting married. Or moving.
lennon
Those big life changes are hard on your friends. They are. It’s—also it’s really scary because like you don’t know how it’s gonna change you! And you’ve got—and maybe—for both Jess and I we had friends and people that had gone before us who had had kids and had dropped out or totally gone mom headfirst, y’know? Or the opposite.
jessica
I was convinced Lennon would disappear. I was convinced—I don’t know why, but I thought she was gonna join an ashram and just breastfeed ‘til they were like 25 and—
lennon
Maybe it was the midwife. Yeah. [Multiple people laugh.] In retrospect.
biz
I remember, though, when I—I was—we were still in New York when we had our first. And all of my comedy friends? None of them had kids and none of them still have kids. And that’s great. But I was the only one. And I know that there was the fear of disappearing, but I remember also going through and still have thoughts of feeling left. Right? Like, feeling left after you have a kid. Right? There is a—
lennon
Yeah. Like, abandoned.
biz
Yeah. There’s an expectation of “This is what you’re doing now” or I remember we had one set of really good friends say, “Well we just stopped putting you on the emails because you could never come.” And I was like, “Fuck you! I will be the one who decides when I can come. Please still put me on the emails!” And like, I think it goes… both… ways. When it comes to friendships. Like, how much are you willing to stick it out with the person through the big change and how much are you—‘cause like, when a kid shows up in your house? Wow. That is—that was a surprise. [Multiple people laugh.] And I don’t know about you guys, but I’m not like… “a mom.” I mean, like, I am, but newborns aren’t my place to be. And so that was a really crazy time.
lennon
Just a crazy shock.
biz
Yeah! And so was the—was the trick—was the solution—and this is to Jessica—was the trick just having a baby right after? Was it just like, “Okay, you’re pregnant. The only way I’m gonna save this friendship is for me to get pregnant ‘cause pregnancy helps all situations.”
lennon
That’s not a good reason to have a baby.
biz
No? I thought that was how you saved your marriage, too! [All laugh.]
jessica
Oh yeah. That always works. Yeah. No, y’know, I really—I knew I wanted to be a mother? But I also know that I hate change. And so honestly if it weren’t for Lennon going forward like a pioneer— [Lennon laughs.]
lennon
And at this point we’re 36. 35. Like—
jessica
Oh, and it wasn’t news to me I should’ve sped up! And you know— [Biz laughs.] It was kind of funny because after—not funny at all, but after I got cancer—I had breast cancer. And I’m totally fine now, but after I had it I was like—right before I did chemo they looked at my eggs to see, like, can we get some out of there? And he was like, “Oh my god, there’s so few!” [Biz laughs.] He was saying, “Thank god you got pregnant when you did!”
crosstalk
Biz: Wow. What a nice thing to say. Jessica: Because I thought—I’m Irish Catholic—
jessica
I know. My mother—I know, right? But he was right, like so—
biz
He was right, but that’s still a dick thing to say to—“Whoa! Lady! You don’t have enough eggs left! I’d like you to go home and stay up all night thinking about this! In fact, I hope these words haunt you for fucking ever.” [Multiple people laugh.]
jessica
No, he didn’t—he definitely didn’t say it like that. But he was like—
biz
Not like this? [Makes spooky noise.] No?
jessica
No, he didn’t. He was like the nicest man on the planet. But he really was, like, “You know, we’re lucky that you did have your kid when you did because—” So I’m glad that Lennon had it first.
lennon
But will you tell the story about why you went and got pregnant? It wasn’t because of me. Maybe you were thinking about it.
jessica
Sort of. But I wasn’t pulling the trigger. And then I did a movie called Enough Said with Julia Louis-Dreyfus. And it was a very small part. She was massaging me. I was one of her massage clients ‘cause she’s a masseuse in this movie, which—if you have not seen it—is one of the most beautiful movies.
biz
For a split second I was thinking just off set. And I was like, “That is so nice.” Go ahead.
jessica
Oh yeah. It—but by the way, she trained as a masseuse. Of course. ‘Cause she’s Julia Louis-Dreyfus. So she was like really good at it. And I hadn’t gotten a pedicure, which I really regretted. [Multiple people laugh.] And I said to her, like, “I’m so sorry for what’s about to happen.” She’s like, “What do you mean?” And anyway, she and I immediately—I mean, I was already in love with her. But we really instantly had a connection. And within like the first—I don’t know—hour of meeting her, she said, “So what’s the deal? Are you gonna get pregnant or what?” And she really says to this day, she says, “Jessica, I don’t say that to people. That is a strange and very invasive thing to say. And I don’t know why I had the feeling I needed to ask you!” And I said, “Well, I just really feel like I need to wait until my career is in an acceptable spot.” ‘Cause I really thought, you have a baby, it destroys your career. I really just assumed. Y’know?
biz
It can! [Laughs.] I mean, it doesn’t have to. But I mean like—it can. It really depends on a lot of stuff! But yeah. Go ahead. Sorry.
jessica
Exactly. So she said, “What are you gonna be so upset if you don’t do that guest star on Gary Unmarried? Like, what are you doing? Have a baby right now! You should get pregnant tonight.” [Biz laughs.] And I was like, “That’s funny.” But part of it was, too, she really is—she loves being a mother. She just is in love with being a mother and her kids were at this point in high school and, y’know, she just was, y’know, saying “Don’t miss this.” So anyway on my drive home I was like, “I can’t believe—” To Dan, I said, “I met my idol. Everything about her is perfect and she told me to get pregnant tonight. It’s so funny. To go off the pill.” And he goes, “Okay.” [Biz laughs.] And so I did! And I got pregnant immediately! Which also then, timing-wise, I was like, “This is gonna ruin our show!” ‘Cause we were already scheduled, right? Lennon, were we already scheduled at this point? To shoot, I think. Yeah.
lennon
Yeah. Yeah. It was the pilot. We were shooting our pilot of Playing House. And I was in the pilot and the first season eight months pregnant. And Jess was like three months. [Laughs.]
jessica
Three months pregnant. But like we were just at the point where you could hide it on me.
crosstalk
Jessica: And like, it all timed out perfectly. Lennon: Yeah. So we hid it with a lot of Empire tops. [Biz laughs.]
lennon
And baskets of laundry or whatever. And then I was really eight months pregnant in the pilot. That’s my real daughter inside of me.
biz
How did the—did the friendship change after kids? Did you guys… I think you guys clearly survived it. [Multiple people laugh.]
jessica
Well it deepened for us. It literally made it better, I think.
lennon
I think that also, too, we had… we had the structure of our job where we explored female friendship because… [Biz laughs.] I mean, when we started working together we were not best friends. And then through exploring female friendship we became best friends. Right? To the point that we were like… totally up each other’s buttholes. Y’know? I mean, very…
biz
Intimate.
lennon
Yeah. And then when I had a child and then I was in the writers’ room week twelve. With a newborn. For season one of our show. Yes, yes, thanks for making that face.
biz
I’m making the face!
jessica
But the baby would come!
lennon
Jess was pregs. And finished out—
biz
I’ll make another face.
lennon
—her pregnant in the writers’ room. And I had my nanny meet me there. I saw Saraya at lunch breaks and I would nurse her or nap with her or whatever and then go back and work until 5:30. And y’know filmed season two after Jess gave birth to Bebe. And so it was sort of built, too, around the fact that we were mothers. We had to take nursing breaks and we had to take—we had to have our nannies with us at all times. And it was structured in a way—and because we were the EPs, we could kind of… call some of those shots. Like, if I was an actor on someone else’s show I would feel very uncomfortable having my nanny and my baby with me at all times. Because they’re—I think it’s the assumption is that the show should be your priority, right? But when you’re in charge of it, and you can admit to each other “This show is not my priority; I do wanna do a great job, but the priority right now is this three-month-old.” Y’know? Then that realigns everything. And I think we agreed on that. And also we were telling this—y’know, it was also a dream come true! Because we got to tell ten episodes. And it was like the dream writers’ room and the dream cast and all of that. And we were filming—
jessica
It was a beautiful time. Yeah.
biz
Alright. There are now—there are now kids in your house and some of them are old enough to have opinions and personalities. And that’s—
lennon
Oh, for sure. All the time. 24/7.
biz
—something. So pre-kid versus post-kid—these are my favorite questions—thoughts on what your kids’ friendships would, A, do your kids even like each other? Two, like, I imagine my kids just naturally making friends very easy and you would see kids like preschool or something, like, two kids just locked arms at four years old completely understanding the point of friendship and just being great. Mine? That turned out not to be even… even remotely true. [Stuart laughs.] And friendships are still… weird things. Even at like eleven. And I have found myself full of friendship baggage that I wasn’t— [Laughs.]
crosstalk
Biz: That I thought I was gonna be really cool about. And now I’m like— Jessica: Right. That you’re processing. Yeah. Lennon: Yeah.
biz
“That friend is monopolizing your time!” [All laugh.]
jessica
Right? But it’s very hard not to insert yourself.
biz
“And I don’t like their haircut.” Yeah! But you can’t—I’m also like, “Shut up! Save it for your husband or the cat! ‘Cause the moment you say something they’re gonna run! They’re gonna run from you!”
jessica
Well that’s—or they’ll run into the arms of the person you don’t like! That’s the thing! And you know what, I look back and I—
biz
I know from experience!
jessica
I call my mother and I’m like, “When you said that that friend was bad news and yet I went ahead and then let her tell me to get bangs? Truly horrendous look on me.” I—y’know, I should’ve listened to her! She was right every single time.
biz
Your children are not gonna tell you that until they are much, much older. Maybe if they’ve had kids and they begin to empathize with anything that you’ve ever done in your existence.
jessica
That’s right. That’s right.
biz
Lennon, I’ll start with you. Do you pre-/post-kids, thoughts on kids’ friendships? Also, you don’t have to be like, “I expect my children—” You’re from the South so I understand. There are some layers when it comes to friendships.
jessica
Well you have to have home training. When you’re from the South, you have to be polite. And I will tell you—
biz
I have failed at that.
jessica
—he is much more polite around Lennon. Lennon has a good look that she can give.
biz
She can nail the look? My children are like… heathens. And could not last two minutes in the South, given their—I’m a horrible mother.
lennon
I mean, let’s—we have to give him a wide berth because nobody—we haven’t been out to eat in such a long time. I—it would literally be a nightmare. [Biz laughs.] If we went out to eat right now. No table manners.
biz
My six-year-old’s still never used a spoon. Wait, he’s seven. Still hasn’t used a spoon. For cereal.
jessica
I heard that kids were forgetting how to use cutlery during the pandemic. Because none of us have sat down—I’m just like, “Go! I don’t know. There’s no—” Yeah! Just—
biz
I’m too tired to be like…
lennon
“Just scoop it up with your hands. Shell—those peas we all shelled. Just scoop ‘em up with your hands.”
biz
Yeah. Those peas we all shelled in our very loose dresses in squat position. Everything comes in bar form in this house now. [Laughs.]
lennon
I don’t know if I had any preconceptions about what my kids’ friendships would be like. I did have the sense—I didn’t wanna force Saraya and Bebe, our daughters, to be best friends? Because…
jessica
I did want to. Yeah.
lennon
She did.
jessica
Thank you.
lennon
But like… I wanted them to be able to choose each other in the way that their mothers chose each other ‘cause that was really powerful? And they were there together all the time. With each other. I mean we have like—obviously we have videos and imagery of Saraya with her hands all over Bebe when she was a newborn and Saraya was like six months old. But they have always loved each other! They have always loved each other. They’ve loved being around each other. I mean it’s cute as shit. It’s also very convenient—
jessica
Never had a fight!
lennon
—because we love being—
biz
Not in front of you.
lennon
—y’know, all of us together. But yeah. No, I mean, they’ve had—they have the same kind of fights that we have, which is they just do—they both approach—
jessica
The fights about how to do games.
biz
How to do anything? Yeah.
lennon
Yeah. How to do games.
jessica
That’s right. Saraya would like us to follow the rules and to be maybe a little bit quieter and Bebe just has destroyed the board before we’re even playing the game.
lennon
Yeah. There was a playdate—we were in my backyard. And Saraya was so excited to show Bebe her new chalk. And how we were gonna use the chalk to draw in a certain way. And Bebe took the chalk and [through laughter] screamed with joy and then ran up the stairs and Saraya was like, “Nooo!” Like that was not the way the chalk was intended to be used. We’ve already decided. I’ve communicated very clearly what we wanna do with the chalk. [Biz laughs.] And here you are just like… doing whatever the fuck you want! But then they move past it.
biz
Just like always, Bebe.
jessica
Always!
lennon
Yeah. They move past it.
jessica
They also are very—y’know, because they’re very similar in temperament to us? They interact very similarly to how we interact. Which is funny to watch.
biz
So what does that—yeah—
crosstalk
Biz: Does that trigger for you guys? Are you guys just like—yeah. Okay. Jessica: It’s just like the chalk. Well, no, it’s just hilarious to us. Because I’m like, “Look.”
jessica
“We might as well be watching ourselves play out.” And—but in the way that Lennon and I are very different in our temperaments, but that is one of the reasons we love each other so much. We complete each other. That is similar. Bebe loves—Bebe always says, “I love being with Saraya because I feel so relaxed.” Because Saraya is more—takes it slower, you know what I mean? She’s Southern. She takes her time.
crosstalk
Lennon: “She’s Southern.” Southern Californian! Biz: My child’s not Southern. Just because her momma is Southern— Jessica: She is, though.
biz
I know! Do you make ‘em watch football games? I do! [Laughs.]
lennon
We have made banana pudding with caramel cake, though. [Laughs.]
biz
Guys? It has been an absolute pleasure having you here.
lennon
Our pleasure.
biz
Thank you so much for putting out all the things you have been putting out in the world. It is incredibly, I think, normalizing for so many of us? Who need to—
jessica
I’m glad.
biz
—actually see themselves on—
lennon
Yeah. It’s nice, right?
biz
Yeah! And it’s nice! And I don’t mean like—I can see moms fucking everywhere on television. All putting lotion on their elbows and— [Stuart laughs.] —y’know—
lennon
That’s specific.
biz
Well you remember like, “Ohhh—” What was that show?
crosstalk
Biz: Ray? Ray? Yeah, they’re always in bed putting lotion on their elbows! We all know that. Jessica: They’re always freaking on those elbows. Lennon: Oh my god.
lennon
No. If anybody tried to talk to me when I was in the bed, they would get a fucking punch to the face. [Biz laughs.] Once I hit that bed, the light’s out, man.
jessica
Yeah. [Laughs.]
biz
We will make sure that people can find the podcast, Whomp It Up, as well as all of the other things you’re doing. I guess I have to ask, are you guys working on anything new or are you suck of fucking working together?
crosstalk
Jessica: No! We see each other every day! We’re working on a movie. Lennon: Unfortunately, every day. We wrote a movie. Biz: No, you’re stuck. [Laughs.] Now that your kids are friends.
lennon
We wrote a movie for Universal featuring Gina Rodriguez and now we’re working on another movie that would star us as moms.
jessica
As moms.
biz
Moms.
jessica
Battling the Mafia!
lennon
Yeah. So get ready. [Laughs.] [Biz laughs.]
biz
I fucking love it. Everybody? Again, check these guys out. Jessica and Lennon. And you can find some of the older shows—including Playing House, in which one of my favorite lines ever was uttered “Are those new jeans?” “They’re my Pea in the Pods.” It is—
lennon
Yes! And I pulled them off of her! I tried to pull them off.
biz
Yeah! You tried to pull them off! But just that you referred to them as your Pea in the Pods—
lennon
Because that was a real thing that had happened in our lives.
biz
Well it’s also a real store in which—you ever make it there—Pea in the Pod maternity jeans.
jessica
Yeah. You just have to get one pair. You gotta lay down the money for them and then you wear them every day. And you know what?
crosstalk
Jessica: I apologize—no. Lennon: But don’t get those half-ass ones. Don’t. That’s right. So comfortable. Biz: No. You have to get the full panel. That comes all the way up to your tits. That’s right. Exactly.
jessica
And I would like to say, on air, I apologize to you, Lennon, for saying that you shouldn’t wear them after the baby is out of you. Because you should wear them for the first year.
biz
Thank you guys so much for joining us and—
jessica
Thank you for having us.
biz
—have a great rest of your day.
crosstalk
Lennon: You, too. Jessica: Okay! You too!
music
“Ones and Zeroes” by “Awesome.” Steady, driving electric guitar with drum and woodwinds. [Music fades out.]
music
Cheerful ukulele music with whistling plays in background.
theresa
One Bad Mother is supported in part by Made In, a cookware and kitchenware brand that works with renowned chefs and artisans to produce some of the world’s best pots, pans, knives, and wine glasses.
biz
Guys, I did not come from a cooking house. And I was fine with that. Until I met a man named Stefan Lawrence, who I fell in love with and married, and I [through laughter] learned the importance and beauty of really good pots and pans and knives.
theresa
Yeah. Mm-hm.
biz
What? They don’t go in the dishwasher?! [Both laugh.] For real? You mean I shouldn’t take this metal spoon and drag it all across the bottom of it? I don’t understand! Look, Made IN products are made to last and they offer a lifetime guarantee. Their cookware distributes heat evenly and can easily go from the stovetop to the oven and their knives are fully-forged, perfectly balanced, and stay sharp. You try and tell me that just any old knife is the same as a good knife.
theresa
Right now, Made In is offering our listeners 15% off your first order with promo code “badmother.” This is the best discount available anywhere online for Made In products.
theresa
Hey, you know what it’s time for! This week’s genius and fails! This is the part of the show where we share our genius moment of the week, as well as our failures, and feel better about ourselves by hearing yours. You can share some of your own by calling 206-350-9485. That’s 206-350-9485.
biz
Genius fail time, Theresaaaaa. [Singing] Theresaaa! Theresaaa! Theresaaaaa! Theresa is the girl of my heart. Boom, boom. [Regular voice] I don’t know. [Theresa laughs.] I felt like a little barbershop quarter was coming through me. Theresa? It’s so nice to see you!
theresa
You too, Biz! Hi!
biz
Hiii! Shall we do our obligatory, “How are you?” “Fine.” Call-and-repeat?
theresa
Yeah. Let’s do it.
biz
How are you? How are you?
theresa
Fine. How are you?
biz
Fine.
theresa
Mm-hm.
biz
Yay! We did it. [Laughs.]
theresa
We did it.
biz
Check. Theresa? Genius me.
clip
[Dramatic, swelling music in background.] Biz: Wow! Oh my God! Oh my God! I saw what you did! Oh my God! I’m paying attention! Wow! You, mom, are a genius. Oh my God, that’s fucking genius! [Biz and Theresa repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss their respective genius moments of the week.]
theresa
Okay. I don’t know if you can tell over Zoom that my bangs look good. But—
biz
They do look good! They are spectacular!
theresa
Thank you. I’m also getting a thumbs-up from Gabe, our producer. Thank you. My genius is just that—so I’ve just always been a bangs person. I’ve always had bangs. Ever since I was a little kid. Just always had bangs. That’s just—that’s just me! That’s me.
biz
Yeah. Bangs Theresa. [Laughs.]
theresa
Bangs Theresa. Exactly. And I… I never really learned how to properly trim my own bangs? My hair has like a weird texture or it has like multiple textures and it’s kind of wavy and it’s just annoying! And I don’t do it. So I get—I go and I get a bang trim. That’s what I do. I just go really quick. It’s very cheap or free, depending on who you go to, to get a quick bang trim. But during the pandemic, pre-vaccination, I obviously couldn’t get my bangs trimmed. And didn’t have the patience or energy to learn how to do it myself. And just went through terrible phases of growing them out and pinning them back and that was horrible and then I did trim them myself a handful of times and was never—never felt okay about how that looked. [Biz laughs.] So my genius is just that this is the first time where I got a haircut a month ago and then today I got a bang trim. Like I never—there was never a time where I had to go, “Oh… I need to figure out what to do about my bangs now.” I did it in a timely manner. I was able to do—I was able to not touch my own head. [Biz laughs.] And—
biz
And you got it!
theresa
Just—I got it done. And it felt normal. It felt really normal and really, really good.
biz
Oh! And it is—dare I say—self-care.
theresa
It is! It’s self-care. Yeah.
biz
I actually—there is a lot to say how this is genius. To give yourself the commitment and allow yourself the space to do the follow-up bang trim? I think that that is—that is so good. You are doing such a good job.
theresa
Thanks, Biz.
biz
I’m… also going to get my first haircut in, like, life since this started. So I have not had my hair cut in… how long has this—so let’s say…
theresa
It’s been fourteen months or fifteen months? Yeah.
biz
And then that doesn’t even count the two months, maybe, before where I’d gone in and gotten it done.
theresa
Basically a year and a half. Let’s just say a year and a half. Yeah.
biz
Year and a half. And…
theresa
Wow.
biz
I’ve cut everyone’s hair in this house. They’ve all generously offered to cut mine. [Theresa laughs.] And I have said, [frostily] “Get away from me.” Exactly in that tone. Now here’s the fun thing. What do you think? We’ve already done shows on mom haircuts. Right? And how it’s like, “You have a baby and so you decide to chop all your hair off.” You do something really dramatic. And so here we are. Year and a half. In a pandemic. Which is basically been like the newborn phase for a year and a half. Right? Can’t go anywhere. How dramatic do we think I should go? ‘Cause I’m not gonna color it. This is the important thing. I have just enough anxiety control to go in for a cut. I can’t sit for the two-to-five hours out in the world, exposed, even though I am, y’know, vaccinated. My comfort level—baby steps. And—yeah! And so part of me’s like, “Just a trim.” And then other parts are like, “Just a pixie.” And another— [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.] And then other parts are like, “What about a bob? What about a lob? What about a shag? What about…”
crosstalk
Theresa: Are you going to somebody that you really trust that you’ve already gone to a bunch of times or just—just a person. Biz: No! God, no. Because the person that I can trust isn’t available for like a million years or only like at three in the afternoon.
biz
Which is not a suitable time for a person. So I’m going to see somebody there. Now everybody I’ve ever seen at this salon are good. But I will say after I made the appointment, I went and looked at the person’s Instagram. And it was like, “I do one cut.” ‘Cause like every model was the exact same…
theresa
Huh.
biz
Which is fine, ‘cause it was fine.
theresa
So get that cut.
biz
I’m—I am, probably. Doesn’t matter what I ask for? I’m gonna get that cut.
theresa
Yeah. That’s what you’re gonna get. Yeah. Yeah. [Both laugh.]
biz
So when I was like, “Do I cancel and reschedule or I—” like, I had that decision of “I could live with that if that’s what I wind up walking out of there with.” Right? I just need some of this stuff—I need it to stop sticking to my armpits. Okay.
theresa
Okay. Great job.
biz
Thanks!
caller
[Answering machine beeps.] Hey, One Bad Mother. I’m calling with a genius. Today I was outside in the backyard with my two children, who are six and two—nearly six and two-and-a-half—and a blue jay came and perched itself right on the fence! Watched it and I thought, “Oh, the kids would love that!” And then I thought to myself, “If I tell them about the blue jay, they’re going to get excited and startle it and it’ll scare it away and I won’t get to see this blue jay anymore.” So I didn’t say anything! I just sat there and enjoyed the blue jay. And it stayed for several minutes, which was surprising. But it was nice. [Biz laughs.] My genius is that I did not bring my kids in on my enjoyment today, I guess? [Biz laughs.] I’m doing a bad job. [Laughs.] Thanks, guys.
theresa
This is so good.
biz
Yeah. you’re doing a great job.
theresa
I’m in for this. Yeah.
biz
Yeah. We should not feel guilt if we choose to not share something magical with our children. ‘K?
theresa
It doesn’t have to be every thing. We don’t have to point out all the stuff. You can just…
biz
You can hear it when you say, “It was really nice.” You can hear how much you needed that little something that was just yours.
theresa
Yeah! Absolutely.
biz
Yeah. [Emphasizing each syllable.] You deserved it. Good job leaving your children out!
crosstalk
Biz and Theresa: Really good job.
biz
Failures.
clip
[Dramatic orchestral music plays in the background.] Theresa: [In a voice akin to the Wicked Witch of the West] Fail. Fail. Fail. FAIL! [Timpani with foot pedal engaged for humorous effect.] Biz: [Calmly] You suck! [Biz and Theresa repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss their respective failures of the week.]
biz
Fail me, Theresa.
theresa
Okay. Yesterday I was taking Oscar to do these vision assessments that were taking forever. And he had to do a lot of work. And he already knew what it was going to be because he didn’t finish the first day that we went to do them, and so he knew we were going back for more and he asked me—when we were on the way there—could we go to Target and get some Pokémon cards after as a reward. And I thought about it. I’ve gotten very good at not just reflexively saying yes or no to things? I was like, “Let me think about it.” I thought about it for a little bit. I haven’t been to Target. I haven’t been! I haven’t been. I’d just—I don’t go—I’m not the store person and it’s just—I haven’t done it. But I don’t really have a problem with it. I just hadn’t done it yet. And there’s one—there’s a Target really close to where we were going and I had taken Oscar there to get Pokémon cards a couple years ago? So I knew the Target—like, I knew the Target. I knew where the Pokémon cards were. [Biz laughs.] I felt like we had enough time and I was like, “You know what? That’s a totally reasonable reward for you finishing these assessments today.” And so he was super excited and he finished all his assessments and he totally finished his assessments because of the Pokémon cards. Like he was very fixated on getting it done so that we could leave and go get the Pokémon cards. So we went to Target and we looked in the spot where the Pokémon cards were before and they weren’t there. And we looked everywhere else and they weren’t there. And then we asked, and some very nice Target employees sadly informed us that Target no longer carries Pokémon cards—
biz
What?!
theresa
Because there have been recent incidents of adults fighting over Pokémon cards.
biz
What?!!
theresa
Yes! Because there’s special cards getting released and so now they’re only selling them online. And they were really nice and really apologetic ‘cause they could see that I was with a seven-year-old who was having his hopes and dreams crushed. And I will say—Oscar handled it really well? But what the fail was was that now we were in a Target… with him being owed a reward…
biz
Yep.
theresa
Me needing to leave to go to a meeting.
biz
Yeah.
theresa
And then just the whole toy aisle. [Biz groans.] And like there’s nothing else that’s Pokémon cards? There’s nothing else that’s like… five bucks for a pack and you feel great about that? Everything else is like a $29.99 toy. And there’s so many of them.
biz
Yeah. Yeah. No.
theresa
So y’know, we got through it? But the fail was just—this was so exactly the thing that I was thinking through beforehand—before saying yes to this!—that I did not wanna put myself in this position of just being in the no-man’s-land— [Biz laughs.] —of the toy aisle and not having a way out.
biz
No game plan. Yeah.
theresa
Not knowing what—y’know, and then he—or obviously ordering online is not acceptable because you want the thing right then. You want it right now. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Ugh! It sucked so much!
biz
Ah! I am really sorry.
theresa
Thank you.
biz
That—I—I do see where the fail is. ‘K? I know that that exists. But who on earth would think that there would like not be the Pokémon cards at Target where they have lived my entire known existence of Target and Pokémon?
theresa
Yes. I know. I know.
biz
I… I—unbelievable!
theresa
I know. I know.
biz
It’s unbelievable.
theresa
I know.
biz
Wow. You’re doing a horrible job not knowing everything. [Theresa laughs.]
theresa
Yes. [Biz laughs.] Thank you.
biz
I don’t know how this is a fail but it feels like a fail and for the last seven days, Ellis has come in to the bedroom in the middle of the night.
theresa
Oh.
biz
One of those nights, Kat came in first. With a nightmare. And—
theresa
Oh my god! Okay.
biz
Kat came into the bed with a nightmare and then said the next day, “Papa was moving around!” And I was like, “Because there was a kid in the bed! He doesn’t move around that way when I’m in the bed!” But Ellis—for a week—has been coming in. Sometimes it’s been like, “I had a bad dream.” So I’m like, [mutters]. And he gets in. And we snuggle and usually he eventually falls on to sleep and then I nudge Stefan and Stefan gets up, picks him up, takes him back to bed. No problem. And I’ve been like, that’s a win. But now—like, last night, he came in and it wasn’t like—it was just a “I can’t sleep” at 11:55 at night. [Theresa groans.] “I can’t sleep.” And then eventually later he identified that he was really hot. And then there was so much kicking and moving and then because Kat had made the jokes about Stefan snoring and that kind of thing? Ellis—not whispering, in the bed, while Stefan is asleep—“Ugh! The noises Papa’s making! Ughhh!” And I’m like, “Uh-uh. You are in our bed. Papa makes the noises. That’s—would you like to go back to your room?” “No!” Basically, I don’t—I don’t know what, per se, is the fail. But I feel like tired shit. [Laughs.]
theresa
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Any time you’re up in the night it feels like a fial. Plus, how do you like having that kind of conversation with your child in the middle of the night? Like—
biz
I hate it!
theresa
Being like, “No, you’re in here.” [Makes snide noises.]
biz
Theresa: Like, please don’t do that right— Biz: I don’t wanna talk!
theresa
You don’t wanna be talking. You don’t wanna be explaining stuff.
biz
I don’t wanna talk. I am tired of elbows in the bosom. [Theresa laughs.] I am tired of there being this demand on just the right position I’m supposed to get in. Right? And then the cats are like, “Yay. I’m still gonna come.” [In high-pitched protest] “I have a cat on me!” [Regular voice] Yeah. I—
theresa
Do you guys have a king bed now?
biz
No! We don’t! We have a queen bed. It is not the right size! It’s not a family bed. It’s a bed for a queen! Jesus!
theresa
Well especially with big kids!
biz
Yeah! They are big kids. They’re big kids! They’re not little kids! They’re big! With elbows! Elbows and knees. Ugh.
theresa
Ugh. I’m really sorry. That’s horrible.
biz
Yeah. It just—it’s just taken a toll. [Laughs.]
theresa
Oh yeah.
caller
[Answering machine beeps.] Hey, Biz and Theresa! I have a glorious fail. I had my son two years and some change ago. Right after he was born, I got an IUD put in. Since he’s two and a half, we decided that we were going to do some family planning, if you will, and try for a second baby. So I got my IUD taken out. This is relevant because I haven’t had to use period products since I was pregnant over three years ago. And I thought I’d give my old Diva Cup another go, and if you can’t tell where this is going then like are you even a parent? Because yes—it was clean. But. I left it—my Diva Cup—after using it—on the side of the sink. And ran back to the bathroom to find my kid just chewing on it. [Biz laughs.] So yeah! There ya go! I don’t know how to parent or period any more. [Biz laughs.] And maybe I shouldn’t have that second child. Everything I know is a lie and I’m calling it all into question. So yeah! You’re doing a great job! And remember to keep your, y’know, blood cup out of the toddler’s reach! [Biz and Theresa laugh.] Bye! [Biz laughs.]
theresa
Biohazard!
biz
That’s right. [British voice] “Chapter 12: What to expect when there’s a baby in your house.” [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.] “If you are to use a Diva Cup, please make sure to keep it out of reach—" [Regular voice] I dunno. I gotta tell ya—it could be a hat.
theresa
Teething toy.
biz
Teething toy. Right? If you had a dog in the house, it would easily become a chew toy. Right? I bet it bounces a little. I bet there’s a bounce to it. And… that’s horrible. That—if there was ever an intimate object— [Theresa laughs.] —that was just for you. That you really don’t want your child’s fingers on. Or like—
theresa
Or just for them to interact with in any way.
biz
To even interact with it! Even in the same room. Yeah. Maybe you should just use your Diva Cup outside of the house. Like, every time— [Theresa laughs.] —just travel to a friend’s house or in-law’s and just, “This is where I have to put it when it’s out. I’m gonna store it here.” Like a night guard, but for your Diva Cup. Something like that. This is—this is awful. And what’s great is it’s a new one.
theresa
Yeah! It’s a new one!
biz
This is a new one! I am so excited about this being a new one.
theresa
Yes. Congratulations.
biz
Congratulations on doing a horrible job and being willing to share it with all of us! [Both laugh.]
music
“Mom Song” by Adira Amram. Mellow piano music with lyrics. You are the greatest mom I’ve ever known. I love you, I love you. When I have a problem, I call you on the phone. I love you, I love you. [Music fades out.]
music
Inspirational keyboard music plays in the background.
biz
One Bad Mother is supported in part by KiwiCo. [Singing] Spring is here and summer is basically also here. [Through laughter] [Regular voice] So why not gift your young innovators with super cool STEAM projects to celebrate the end of the school year? And I gotta say, that makes it sound like it might be kind of boring but it’s not! [Both laugh.] It isn’t!
theresa
I love their products. They’re so well-tested. Well thought-out. They actually make it very easy for the kids at the recommended ages to actually do these projects pretty much on their own with just me keeping an eye or offering a little support.
biz
I have to say, one of our most recent kits we did was an air cannon? And I am not sure who enjoyed making the air cannon more, me or Ellis. It might’ve been me. With KiwiCo, there’s something for every kid or kid-at-heart every month.
theresa
Get 30% off your first month, plus free shipping on any crate line, with code “badmother” at KiwiCo.com.
promo
Music: Cheerful, jazzy, old-timey music plays in background. Freddie Wong: Hey, you like movies? How about coming up with movie ideas over the course of an hour? ‘Cause that’s what we do every week on Story Break, a writers’ room podcast where three Hollywood professionals have an hour to come up with a pitch for a movie or TV show based off of totally zany prompts. Will Campos: Like that time we reimagined Star Wars based on our phones’ autocomplete! Will: Luke Skywalker is a family man and it’s Star Wars but it’s a good idea. [Multiple people laugh.] Matt Arnold: Okay. How about a time we wrote the story of a bunch of Disney Channel Original Movies based solely on the title and the poster? Matt: Okay, Sarah Hyland is a 50-foot woman. Let’s just go with it, guys. Freddie: Or the time we finally cracked the Adobe Photoshop Feature Film. Matt: Stamp Tool is your Woody, and then the autofill— Freddie: Ohhhh. Matt: —Is the new Buzz Lightyear! [Multiple people laugh.] Freddie: Join us as we have a good time imagining all the movies Hollywood is [accusatory voice] too cowardly to make! [Dramatic voice] Story Break comes out every Thursday on Maximum Fun. [Regular voice] I don’t know why I’m using this voice now. [Music ends.]
promo
Music: Upbeat, sci-fi sounding music plays. Dan McCoy: Hey! I’m Dan McCoy. Stuart Wellington: I’m Stuart Wellington. Elliott Kalan: And I’m Elliott Kalan. Together, we are The Flop House. Dan: A podcast where we watch a bad movie and then talk about it! Elliott: Movies like--Space Hobos! Into the Outer Reaches of the Unknown and the Things That we Don’t Know: The Movie, and also--Who’s That Grandma? Stuart: Zazzle-Zippers! Breakdown 2 and Backhanded Compliment. Dan: Elvis is a Policeman! Elliott: Baby Crocodile and the Happy Twins! Dan: Leftover Potatoes? Stuart: Station Wagon 3. Elliott: Herbie Goes to Hell. Dan: New episodes available every other Saturday! Elliott: Available at MaximumFun.org or wherever you get your podcasts. Dan, Elliott, and Stuart: [In unison] Byeee!
biz
Alright, everybody. It’s time to settle in, virtually snuggle up with Theresa, and listen to a mom have a breakdown.
caller
[Answering machine beeps.] Hi! I’m calling with a rant. My five-year-old, for the holidays, wanted a dragon. And he saw this dragon in a catalog and that was the only thing that he circled and just… obsessed with it and whatever. And so we got him this dragon. Not a big deal. And it came with all this other stuff and my husband decided that he needed to show him—y’know, ‘cause of course it’s not just like “a dragon.” It’s part of a universe of cartoons and other toys and yadda, yadda. So my husband decided that he needed to show him the cartoon. Not really appropriate for him, I don’t think. But he’s obsessed with it now. He’s obsessed with this dragon and these characters and these battles and like… fine. Um… but I’m just sick of hearing about it? [Biz laughs.] And I’m with him all the fucking time? He’s identified another kid in his online preschool class who is also into these things, so maybe it is more age-appropriate than I—I dunno. Whatever. [Biz laughs.] Now he wants to meet this kid in person and have battles. And I’m just like—I did nothing to contribute to this. Like, I… y’know, I bought him the dragon toy that he wanted, but I don’t know why that means that he has to be introduced to this entire world. I just want to control his life and his consumption and his media consumption and— [Laughs, then cries.] I just gotta start letting that go, ‘cause he’s five and he’s growing up. Anyways. I fucking hate this dragon. [Biz laughs.] Thanks for the show.
biz
[Through laughter] I love you.
theresa
Ohhhh.
biz
I love you so much!
theresa
I do, too!
biz
You’re doing such a good job. Like, right up into the point where you’re like, “I mean, I dunno. He’s five.” And there’s the pause and then I know where we wind up going. But before that I wanted to be like, “Yeah, he’s five. He’s practically able to buy cigarettes and beer.” Right? Like— [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.] Oh, the dragon! Okay. You did this whole setup of how this dragon came to be and none of that was really the point. It was the point that you are the one who has to be the sounding board—the sound sponge, as it were—for all information related to this new interest. It is nonstop, never-ending, and it tweaks us, I think, in that spot of like… “How much can I tune out before my kid thinks I don’t care about them or love them?” [Laughs.] That’s where I go. I’m like, “I need you to just stop talking about it.” Like you can’t—it’s like, “Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Mm. Interesting.” Then they’re like, “Well, ask me five questions about it.” “Oh, god! I don’t—I don’t wanna know about it!” And it’s exhausting! And then that plays in—
theresa
It takes so—it takes so much energy? Especially when the kids are home so much right now. Because we’re trying to use some of our day to think about the things we need to think about. Like I have this friend and I hear her voice in my head sometimes? She told me that one time she just said to her kids, like, “Um, can you just hang on a minute? ‘Cause I have my own thoughts in my head, too.” [Biz laughs.] And I just love that! ‘Cause it’s like, sometimes there’s a fight that’s happening between the information that’s coming in nonstop from them and the thing that we’re trying to process internally that has nothing to do with what they’re talking to us about. And that can be a painful feeling. Like, it can actually physically hurt to… to me. To be trying to think through—think about something that I’m thinking about and have something coming at me.
biz
Yeah! It’s coming at you!
theresa
Yeah.
biz
There’s no book that’s like, “You better listen to every single boring piece of shit like trivia about this thing that your kid is obsessed with right now at this moment and love it.” ‘K? It’s okay that you don’t love it. Now we move to the symbolism of the dragon and your child growing up. Right? Now you have this mix of emotion? Of not—I dunno. For me it does. For me it’s like—Theresa’s giving me the like, “I’m not—didn’t go there.” But where I’m like, you suddenly go into the “control of media and I wanna be able to control everything that goes on in my kid’s life and I can’t.” And I simultaneously also don’t wanna listen to any of the stuff they actually—this is me talking. [Laughs.]
theresa
No! I—I relate to that, too. I just—I think the piece that I’m connecting with the most is this—almost like this feeling of loss? That when we don’t—when we’re not that interested in the stuff that they’re interested in? And that they’re not interested in something we thought they’d be interested in or something we thought we’d be interested in together? There is like a little bit of sadness there! And it’s a separation. It’s like, “Oh yeah, you’re your own person. And you might not like the things I thought we would enjoy together. Now I can’t—like, I can’t fix that.” Y’know, he’s ifve and he’s getting into what he’s gonna get into and you’re seeing how that’s gonna go sometimes! He’s gonna go off and have his interests and it hurts not to care sometimes. Right, Biz? Like when—
biz
It hurts. I mean, we were just talking about this ourselves offline. The feeling of realizing that you really have no control over what your kid likes or doesn’t like or how they move through the world and how that differs from what you thought you wanted for them. And what a yuck place that is to be in, in your mind. Because that’s not what you’re prepared for. [Laughs.] And so… so all of that is to say—you’re doing a good job. You don’t have to like everything your kid likes. It is exhausting to have to listen to it all. And you also get to be sad and disappointed about it.
theresa
Yeah. Totally.
biz
So you are amazing.
theresa
Yeah. You are.
biz
Theresa? You are also amazing. And I… adore you.
theresa
Thanks, Biz. You are also amazing. And I’m very happy that you’re my friend.
biz
I am happy that you are my friend. And I’ll talk to ya next week if you want!
theresa
Sounds good! [Biz laughs.]
biz
Okay.
crosstalk
Biz and Theresa: Byeeee!
biz
What did we learn today, everybody? That friendship is magic? I think we did. I had such a nice time talking with Jessica and Lennon and I am—I will admit how jealous I am of their situation in which they got to—almost forced to stay physically in each others’ lives during those newborn months. Years. I think it’s such a testament to the lesson that I have learned in working with Theresa over these years, as well as having a chance to interact and hear from you guys just that you don’t have to be the same people to be friends. You don’t have to approach life or parenting the same way to still respect and enjoy parenting alongside a friend. I… I just… remember how isolating those early years are, and the pandemic hasn’t helped those who are new to kids in their house. And those of us who’ve been—who thought those days of isolation were over! [Laughs.] And so I just—I thought it was really great, hearing from them and their experiences. And I gotta say—Best Friends Forever and Playing House are so fucking funny and relatable. I cannot recommend them enough. So you can go find those. We’ll link you up to where. Everybody? You’re doing a remarkable job. I don’t know what summer’s gonna be like. [Laughs.] I don’t. I don’t know what less restrictions are gonna look like and I am definitely in a place of being overtired and unsure about so many things. And I know, thankfully, that I am not alone in that. So I share that with the hope that it will make you feel less alone if that is where you are. None of this is easy. In fact, it’s ridiculously difficult. And I see you? And you are doing such a good job. And I will talk to you next week. Bye!
music
“Mama Blues” by Cornbread Ted and the Butterbeans. Strumming acoustic guitar with harmonica and lyrics. I got the lowdown momma blues Got the the lowdown momma blues Gots the lowdown momma blues The lowdown momma blues. Gots the lowdown momma blues Got the lowdown momma blues You know that’s right. [Music fades somewhat, plays in background of dialogue.]
biz
We’d like to thank MaxFun; our producer, Gabe Mara; our husbands, Stefan Lawrence and Jesse Thorn; our perfect children, who provide us with inspiration to say all these horrible things; and of course, you, our listeners. To find out more about the songs you heard on today’s podcast and more about the show, please go to MaximumFun.org/onebadmother. For information about live shows, our book and press, please check out OneBadMotherPodcast.com.
theresa
One Bad Mother is a member of the Maximum Fun family of podcasts. To support the show go to MaximumFun.org/donate. [Music continues for a while before fading out.]
music
A cheerful ukulele chord.
speaker 2
Comedy and culture.
speaker 3
Artist owned—
speaker 4
—Audience supported.
About the show
One Bad Mother is a comedy podcast hosted by Biz Ellis about motherhood and how unnatural it sometimes is. We aren’t all magical vessels!
Join us every week as we deal with the thrills and embarrassments of motherhood and strive for less judging and more laughing.
Call in your geniuses and fails: 206-350-9485. For booking and guest ideas, please email onebadmother@maximumfun.org. To keep up with One Bad Mother on social media, follow @onebadmothers on Twitter and Instagram.
Get in touch with the show
onebadmother@maximumfun.org
@OneBadMothers
@onebadmothers
How to listen
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