TRANSCRIPT Ep. 406: Moms Can Be Whatever

Transcript

biz ellis
									
Hi. I’m Biz.
theresa thorn
									
And I’m Theresa.
biz
									
Due to the pandemic, we bring you One Bad Mother straight from our homes—including such interruptions as: children! Animal noises! And more! So let’s all get a little closer while we have to be so far apart. And remember—we are doing a good job.
music
									
“Summon the Rawk” by Kevin MacLeod. Driving electric guitar and heavy drums. [Continues through dialogue.]
biz
									
This week on One Bad Mother—moms can be whatever the fuck they want! We talk to Australian comedian and author Nelly Thomas about being yourself. Plus, Biz can feel it.
crosstalk
									
Biz and caller: Woooo!
caller
									
Yeah! Work is asking me for some more in-person interactions. Today—but today is the kids’ first day back at daycare in… I have no ideal how long. [Biz laughs.] I’ve got all the feels and all the anxieties but I was smart and daddy is taking care of drop-off so I don’t have to witness any of the drama. So that’s good. And… yeah! I am now on my way to work to see colleagues that I like. Do a job that I like. And if anybody asks me if I’m okay—no! No, I’m not. [Biz laughs.] But this does not suck. Alright. Y’all take care.
biz
									
“This does not suck.” That is a mantra for our times. You are doing an amazing—you really are doing an amazing job! I love this check-in. Because everything still sounds insane, what you’re saying. But at the same time… you are recognizing all the little joys that are hidden in there? Like, hey! Good job passing off that first-day drop-off to your partner. That is something I think is really hard to do? And when you’ve got a day where you’re really looking forward to doing something that at the same time requires probably a mental focus that you haven’t had to put to use in a while? Like, being in person? Giving yourself the space to not add to that—the drop-off—is—it’s just really genius. And such a good job taking care of yourself. And I’m really glad that you like where you work and that this all is—I’m just so glad about this check-in! You are doing such an amazing job! Thank you for sharing it! Speaking of thank-you—[singing] thank you, thank youuu! There’s a pandemic! It’s still happening. [Regular voice] So here come the thank-you’s. Thank you, everybody in the medical field. I just… you all know who you are. It’s all of you. Every single one of you. You’re all amazing and I see you and the fact that you probably had no time to rest. Thank you to all the people who are joining the medical field right now? I mean, a lot of people—it’s been a year and a half, almost, and it’s amazing to me that people didn’t just run away. That people actually finished getting certified or their degrees in medicine and going back into a field in which your services are so needed. I just—thank you for doing that. As well as thank you to all the people who have started working in all of the support roles that make medical facilities, hospitals, doctors’ offices happen. Thank you. Thank you to all of our people who are working in retail and groceries and food and delivery services. Ahhhh! You make it feel like everything’s almost normal. [Laughs.] And at a cost to yourself. And I really, really appreciate you doing that. Thank you. [Singing] Postal workers and Amazon/FedEx/DHL—all of you—thank you for bringing us our stuff! [Laughs.] [Regular voice] That’s very nice of you. Teachers? Teachers? Teachers, listen up! I love you. You’re doing impossible things right now. Nothing that you were probably trained for. Just Zooming and in-person and… back-and-forth! Back-and-forth! Back-and-forth! Back-and-forth! [Laughs.] And yet you show up! And you’re so nice! And I really appreciate you. And… finally, for this week, [singing] vacciiiines! Vacciiiines! People making vaccines. [Regular voice] Oh, I should do that to “Jolene”! [Singing to tune of Dolly Parton’s “Jolene”] Vaccine! Vaccine! Vaccine! Vacciiiine! [Regular voice] That was awful. You’re all welcome. So people who made those vaccines, thank you. Science. Scientists. Epidemiologists. You guys are great. People manufacturing those vaccines and shipping them safely to where they need to go? Thank you! And thank you to all of the people who are poking us all the time. Maybe you are actually in the medical profession or maybe you are a volunteer helping people get to their pokes. Thank you. Thank you. Let’s keep getting [singing] pooooked! [Regular voice] You’re all doing an amazing job.
biz
									
This is my check-in, guys. My check-in is—I wanted to let you guys know this—tween energy is palpable. There are times when I walk into a room that my tween is in. Or my tween enters my room. And there is—it’s almost like a smell, but it’s not. It’s their energy. And sometimes that energy is so overwhelming and I feel like I’m not contributing to it or taking from it. But I’m—I’m being absorbed in it. And it’s a weird alien energy. And… there are some times I’m standing there and that energy is all around me and I [through laughter] don’t like it! I don’t like it! It doesn’t feel good! I feel like I just need to carry sage around with me and constantly sage my tween. The disruption and the back-and-forth and the insanity of this poor child’s emotions and hormones and like… everything else just converging on them at once? Needs a good sage-ing. That’s all I can say. Everything is weird. And summer’s coming. So that’s great. And I know that so much of it is just about my poor tween trying to figure out who they are. And there’s something about these years in which you have to try and be everything but yourself sometimes, it feels like. [Laughs.] Before you find yourself. And all I wanna do is get out of the way of that weirdo energy and yet still make sure my child knows that they can be whatever the fuck they want! Which I think ties in nicely to what we’re gonna talk about today with our guest, Nelly Thomas.
music
									
Banjo strums; cheerful banjo music continues through dialogue.
theresa
									
Please—take a moment to remember: If you’re friends of the hosts of One Bad Mother, you should assume that when we talk about other moms, we’re talking about you.
biz
									
If you are married to the host of One Bad Mother, we definitely are talking about you.
theresa
									
Nothing we say constitutes professional parenting advice.
biz
									
Biz and Theresa’s children are brilliant, lovely, and exceedingly extraordinary.
theresa
									
Nothing said on this podcast about them implies otherwise. [Banjo music fades out.] [Biz and Nelly repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss the weekly topic.]
biz
									
This week, we are welcoming Nelly Thomas. Who is a multitalented Australian comedian and author! I like the idea that Australian is like—it’s a comma. You are multitalented, Australian, comedian, and author! [Nellie laughs.] Anyway. She is a regular guest on ABC Melbourne Radio, Radio National, News Breakfast, and various other programs. Nelly was listed as one of Australia’s Most Innovative Thinkers in the Age newspaper and was featured on the ABC’s “Big Ideas: the Smartest Stuff on TV, Radio, and Online.” Nelly is the author of four books, including three highly-successful children’s books: Some Girls, Some Boys, and Some Brains—a book celebrating neurodiversity. Those did have commas, by the way. [Nellie laughs.] She’s also the author of two books for adults, What Women Want, and her most recent book, which I have not stopped laughing at, Some Moms Are Fat Molls. [Nellie laughs.] Her passions include women’s health and well-being. Those are good things to be passionate about. Social justice and binge-watching television. And here’s the highlight—her greatest claim to fame [through laughter] is that she was once an under-thirteen’s State Girls BMX champion. That’s all we’re gonna talk about today. Welcome, Nelly! [Laughs.]
nelly
									
Correct. Correct! BMX champion. You are looking at an elite athlete. Right? Elite! It’s been a while.
biz
									
What you guys can’t see is that her entire house is filled with bikes. Just BMX bikes. [Nellie laughs.] They’re everywhere and it’s filthy! There’s dirt from off-roading. It’s not true.
nelly
									
Grease. [Biz laughs.] Well actually my career was cut short as they so tragically and often are, by an accident. So.
biz
									
Did you get your period? [Both laugh.] Sorry!
nelly
									
Well if you count an handlebar through the stomach. [Biz shrieks.] It was bloody!
biz
									
That’s worse. [Laughs.]
nelly
									
So… yeah. Yeah. It was a little—it was intense. I never rode again. I never rode again.,
biz
									
Did you—were you really just like, “That’s fucking it.”
nelly
									
Overnight! I was thirteen so I was already going, y’know, “Do I really wanna be riding?” There were really very few girls riding at that time because I’m 125. So—
biz
									
Yeah. I’m also 125. So yeah. I know.
nelly
									
Y’know? So I had to ride the boys and that sounded—[Laughs.] [Biz laughs.] —different. [Laughs.]
biz
									
A different thirteen-year-old experience. There ya go! [Laughs.]
nelly
									
It’s a different sport altogether. But it was a man’s world. And…
biz
									
I know. Thank god that’s changed, Nelly! [Laughs.]
nelly
									
[Through laughter] Yeah. Thank goodness. So yeah. No. Enough of that already. But I like—y’know, I have to have some sporting claim to fame. I’m a chubby lady and—
biz
									
This is good! This is—
nelly
									
I like to claim it from some point in my life.
biz
									
Nelly, who lives in your house? Besides the BMX bikes. [Laughs.] [Nellie laughs.]
nelly
									
I can tell this is gonna be a wild ride and I’m up for it. Who lives in my house? I have two daughters. One is fourteen. One is eight. And I have two dogs. An absolutely stupid labradoodle who—he’s one of those dogs that’s like… we often have this discussion in my house with my daughters of like, “Would you rather be dumb and pretty—” [Biz laughs.] “—or smart and anxious?” Right? So he’s dumb and pretty. And Ralph, our little rescue poodle, is smart and anxious. So that’s the four of us. I’m actually recently single mum. So… my relationship—
biz
									
Congratulations? [Laughs.] I know!
nelly
									
[Through laughter] Yeah! Ohhh! Party! Um, yeah. It’s been—like for many people, been a bit of a wild ride the last year. Yeah.
biz
									
Oh, wow!
nelly
									
Mm.
biz
									
That’s—we do not have to derail into that. All I will say, though, is— [Nellie laughs.] Good job recognizing the things—whatever you needed to recognize, good job. And—
nelly
									
Yup. Yup. Y’know, life goes on. Life goes on.
biz
									
Yeah, it goes. What I’m discovering is it just goesss and goesss and goessss. Well between your fourteen-year-old and your eight-year-old, which one is [through laughter] pretty and dumb and which one is smart and anxious? [Both laugh.] You don’t have to answer that.
nelly
									
We’re all smart, pretty, and anxious in my house.
biz
									
Oh, yeah.
nelly
									
Yeah. That’s how we roll.
biz
									
That’s a good combo. I like the triple—triple-headed.
nelly
									
But—oh, by the way, the answer is “be pretty and dumb.” None of us—y’know. None of us managed it. [Biz laughs.] But I look at Chewy—the labradoodle—and just think, “What a life.” Doesn’t care. Not thinking about anything. He wasn’t thinking about Trump!
biz
									
No! He never thought about it. He’s not worried about the pandemic. Don’t freak me out and make me think that Trump is [through laughter] still president, ‘cause he’s not. [Nellie laughs.] I stopped thinking about him like… so fast. I know.
nelly
									
Well lucky you, because my—so my eight-year-old daughter—and I might be jumping ahead, forgive me. But my eight-year-old daughter is autistic. And she has—like a lot of autistic kids, they have special interests. And she has—
biz
									
Oh. Oh, no.
nelly
									
—a special interest in American presidents. Right? So— [Biz laughs.] —how this happened, I have no idea.
biz
									
You’re welcome. [Laughs.]
nelly
									
No idea. So she was so—and still is—so obsessed with Trump. And makes posters about him coughing COVID onto people. [Biz gasps.]
biz
									
I love her! I love her!
nelly
									
Yeah. Like she’s not proud. She’s not proud to—no. No.
biz
									
But I want one of these political posters! This is gonna be like… yeah! Alright! So we are gonna get into autism, ‘cause that’s a fun place to go. But I’m gonna get there—I’m getting there third, as it were.
nelly
									
Sure. Get there in your way.
biz
									
Because I just—you may know this, but there seems to be a pattern in the titles of your books. [Laughs.]
nelly
									
Yes! There is!
biz
									
There’s a bit of a pattern! [Nellie laughs.] And the first one was Some Girls, followed by Some Boys. And then it got, Some Brains. And then we have Some Moms. And I love the idea that you’re just gonna stop there and Some Dads—fuck it. Some Dads Are Alright. That’s it! [Nellie laughs.] That’s all they get! Sometimes they’re—no, I dunno. Okay. [Laughs.]
nelly
									
Well someone did message me the other day on Facebook saying, “The next one will be Some Dads [Do Whatever the Fuck They Want].” [Biz laughs.] And I was like, “That’s a short book!” [Laughs.] I don’t know how many people will buy it for Father’s Day, but I will give it a go. [Biz laughs.]
biz
									
Oh, sometimes we need something not that hard. Okay. [Nellie laughs.] Some Girls and Some Boys. Let’s start with those. And—[Laughs.] I don’t know. Maybe—
nelly
									
Where they come from?
biz
									
I’m not sure about this. I’m still doing some research. But I think there may have been a lifelong void—[Laughs.] [Nellie laughs.] In children’s literature and/or all literature that encourages celebrating diversity and being different. Maybe. I don’t know. Do you notice that—
nelly
									
Yeah, no, I hadn’t. I hadn’t. No.
biz
									
So you were just ready to put a book out there just to become one of a million books. [Laughs.] [Nellie laughs.]
crosstalk
									
Nelly: That’s right. ‘Cause it’s so lucrative. Biz: So talk to me about—yeah!
biz
									
Why did you make this—why did you make these? I mean—
nelly
									
Well, there’s a personal answer and then there’s a sort of I guess a more political answer. So I have—before—I became a comedian when I was 27. Which is old. Y’know. In comedy land. Right? So before—
biz
									
You and I are living mirrored lives. That’s when I moved to New York to do stand-up myself! Look at you! But you’re doing it much better. People actually call you that. Okay, go ahead! [Both laugh.]
crosstalk
									
Biz: I’m just gonna live vicariously through my children. Go ahead. [Laughs.] Nelly: I’m very [inaudible] that. [Laughs.]
nelly
									
So prior to that—which is a bit of a downer—but I used to work in welfare. So I worked in sort of domestic violence refuges and homelessness services and all of those kinds of things. So I’ve always been really passionate, particularly about violence against women. And the long story short is that these books are part of my passion to do with that. Because the research shows very clearly that the way to prevent gendered violence is to challenge gendered stereotypes. And I’d done so much work over the years with teenagers and adults and gigs in that space and conferences and all the sorts of things, and then it just—y’know. It’s so obvious. You have to start young, basically. You have to teach little boys to be able to actually access their emotions and name them and deal with them. And little girls to, y’know, assert themselves. And wherever there is rigid gender roles, there’s more violence! So that’s the kind of political answer. The short—I mean, it’s more complex. But you know that’s the short story.
biz
									
I hate to tell you—I’m not sure it’s that complex.
nelly
									
Well, that’s true.
biz
									
I mean, y’know. Eh. I guess my largest frustration is that there is still a lack of vision about how early this stuff needs to be addressed. And how—
nelly
									
Oh, immediately!
biz
									
How much these things correlated with violence against women. Yeah. Anyway. Okay. So—but personally—
nelly
									
Well, and on that point, can I say—my response now is to say, “Just look at the research!” The research is very clear. This is not me having a guess. This is not you having a guess. [Biz laughs.] The research is very clear that if you have really rigid gender roles—especially that tell little boys, y’know, “Don’t cry. You’re in control. You’re in charge. You’re the man of the house”—all of that kind of bullshit—then you will have more violence! You will have more violence for boys and men to each other, against women and girls, and—lately—the research has come out—to themselves! In terms of mental health and self-harm and so on. Anyway. That’s fucking depressing. Anyway—[Laughs.] [Biz laughs.]
biz
									
So is parenting! So y’know. It’s all fine. It’s fine. [Laughs.]
nelly
									
Well, just—sidenote—and this will not surprise you—what is the most of all the books I’ve written the most controversial thing and the thing that I get asked about all the time—is that there is one boy. One boy out of that forty in the Boys book who wears a skirt. One boy.
biz
									
Okay. I—just so you know—my youngest—he loved a skirt. Still loves a skirt. And I remember—everybody who listens to the show knows this fucking story. And it’s that like he was—I dunno—two, or something? Old enough to express opinions. And I’d taken him to the clothing shop to get some clothes. I was like, “Eh, getting some shorts. You need a t-shirt. What do you want?” And he’s like, “I wear the skirts! I want the skirt! Can I have a skirt?” And I—I mean, I’m as feminist and progressive as you wanna be. And I—but I was taken by this moment and my thought was, “I have no good fucking reason—I can’t think of words that I could put together that would explain why you couldn’t wear a skirt.” And we would go pick up his older sister from school and in would come Ellis with the skirt and the dress ‘cause who doesn’t like to twirl? And it was just—y’know—like—we—all the first- and second- and third-graders in my oldest’s class would be like, “Is he wearing a skirt?” Y’know? [Laughs.] I’d be like—yeah! I’d say like, “Yes.” And they would be like, “Oh, okay.” Y’know, like—[Laughs.]
nelly
									
Yes! That’s exactly right!
biz
									
So I can’t believe you got—‘cause you’ve got—everybody, you’re gonna need to get the books—but the skirt is like the least in terms of all the diversity. I mean, there are kids with the—like—what are they called?
nelly
									
The blades. Yeah. Yeah.
biz
									
The blades. I mean, there are like—every single possible conception of a child. [Laughs.]
nelly
									
Yeah. No, I tried! I tried!
biz
									
You did a good job!
nelly
									
Yeah! I mean, it’s just—I find it really interesting and I think those things reveal a lot to us? Y’know, that emotional reaction. Reveals a lot to us about where we are. Because we think we’re so progressive in, y’know, Western countries—whatever that means these days—in terms of gender roles and so on. And then the idea of a boy in a skirt freaks out not just conservatives, but progressives as well! And even—I notice, like, even in interviews—maybe your interview’s a really progressive journalist kind of laughing, “Oh! Oh! How did you—” [Laughs.] Y’know? That kind of manic laughter. And you’re like— [Biz laughs.] “Hey. Like, some dudes wear skirts!”
biz
									
It’s a fucking piece of clothing, man!
nelly
									
It’s a piece of clothing. And if we didn’t all react like this, imagine how many boys would wear skirts. Like why are we so—once you start unpacking and kinda go, “What are you uncomfortable about? Is it homophobia? Is it that he’s emasculated? Like, what is it that he’s hitting your nerve center?”
biz
									
Well I have an answer! [Laughs.]
nelly
									
Okay! Tell me!
biz
									
I think—honestly—honest-to-God—I think it’s about—it’s sort of the same thing I’ve had to unpack with the color pink and with the whole princess phase and all this stuff? Y’know, it first happens and you’re like, “Ahhh! I’ll never put my child in pink!” And then you’re like, “Wait, why? Oh. Because it’s ‘bad.’ Things that are associated traditionally with girls and women—"
nelly
									
And femininity.
biz
									
“—are negative.” And so it’s fine for girls to wear skirts because we fucking hate ‘em. [Nellie laughs.] But a boy wears a skirt, then that’s associated with weak, bad, second, y’know, all the—it’s the same thing with the pink. “Oh my god, is he wearing the color pink?” Y’know. Who—what?
nelly
									
Or nail polish or whatever. No. And I agree.
biz
									
Nail polish, yeah.
nelly
									
I think the idea is—why would he give up power?
biz
									
Oh! Yeah! Two-year-old! Why would you give up power?
nelly
									
Yeah. Yeah. But you remember when David Beckham wore—it was a sarong, actually. It wasn’t even a fucking skirt. But y’know, that was—what—twenty years ago or something. And I remember the reaction to that! And that’s an elite athlete. Very masculine figure. Y’know, like lauded, adored… and I think the reaction to that was—why would he give up his masculine power? Y’know? And the more interesting part of that is—“masculine power.” Why do men have power?
biz
									
I know. Well, but then you look at—was it Mia Hamm? Who was it who ripped her shirt off after the World—the American World Cup thing? And she rips her shirt off. And there the backlash is… like, almost “How dare she show power!” Right? Y’know.
crosstalk
									
Nelly: Yeah. No, that’s right. That’s right! And we’re sort of still there in some ways. Biz: I mean, we are just healthy.
nelly
									
So that—and look, that was a bloody long answer. But the personal—
biz
									
Yeah! “Why’d you write the book?” [Both laugh.]
nelly
									
The personal story is—for all of the kids’ books, actually—my younger daughter does not fit any kind of convention. So she will get invited, y’know, when she was like two, to a fairy party and she went as Darth Vader. Y’know. She just—with a [makes harsh breathing noise] like the whole thing. [Biz laughs.] Like she just—she’s a loose unit. She just runs her own race. And I could not find any books for her. And y’know like many mums I just went, “Alright. I’ll do that then.” And so I did the girls one and obviously it went really well and when I was touring it of course the little boys were like, “Where’s our book?”
biz
									
“Where’s our book? We want a book!” [Laughs.]
nelly
									
Right. “Where’s our book?” So did that. And then when she was diagnosed with autism, same experience! Y’know, I went looking for books that were positive about her identity and positive about the diagnosis and her brain and all that sort of stuff. And I don’t know! There are a couple that were okay, but they still—[Laughs.] The way I think of it was like they kind of go, “You’ll be alright.” [Biz laughs.] Y’know? They’re like—that’s the best you could hope for. That’s the best.
biz
									
Yeah. Is that you’ll be okay. Yeah. [Laughs.]
nelly
									
The worst would be, y’know, “You’re gonna be bullied. You’ll have a terrible life. Everyone will hate you. Then you’ll die.” And—[Laughs.] Like, “Good luck.” Yeah! Probably not gonna give that to a five-year-old.
biz
									
Oh. I know. Well it’s—okay. So let’s—everybody, if you haven’t caught on yet, Nelly wrote a third book. [Laughs.]
crosstalk
									
Nelly: Yes! Yes, yes! Some Brains. Yes. Biz: It’s called Some Brains.
biz
									
And again, this one is about celebrating neurodiversity and we’ve stolen—on this show—the phrase—and I will happily use it all the time to show how woke I am—“differently-wired?” Right? Like, which we have found to be a great way to talk to our own kids and other kids just in general about like, well what does that mean? What is autism or what is this? Well “differently-wired.” All of our brains work in different ways. But so… we know why you wrote that one. And… what was that experience—I gotta think that some of that experience allowed you to unpack some stuff maybe you were carrying around. Yeah? I mean, any time you do that. But like—
nelly
									
Yeah. For sure. For sure. I mean, that was—it’s a really interesting experience, that one. Because you know with some projects that they just fall out of you. Y’know? Like, they just—that one… I mean—[Laughs.] I kind of—I’m scared to say this because it sounds like there was no effort—[Laughs.] [Biz laughs.] But I—it’s like I wrote that—the bulk of it, it took me a day. Y’know? Like, it just—it’s like it was percolating there and it just… came out of me. And obviously it was refined and all of that sort of stuff and there’s the process with the illustrator and blah, blah, blah. But it just was there. I don’t know. It’s almost like… I’m not a spiritual person, particularly? But it’s like someone was, y’know, sending it via my brain to the page.
biz
									
Sometimes when you put it out there? I am a big believer in—sometimes when you just say words out loud and you put it out there, things just kinda open? Y’know what I mean? And so… also… I would imagine there would have to be something about things you really wanted to say to your child!
nelly
									
Yeah! To my child. And that she wanted to say. Y’know. I did—the process involved—she contributed a lot to it. Like we talked about what things—for example—what things were hard. Y’know. And the biggest thing for her was going to school and being tired and the air conditioner smells and the… the—someone opens their lunchbox and then I can’t concentrate and then someone’s tapping their pencil on the other side of the room and I start to feel stressed and—y’know. Those kinds of things. So that input came from her. Prior to that, as well, one of my best friends is a really staunch disability activist. So I’d already come to writing the book through that kind of… disability/empowerment lens? Y’know, and the social model of disability and all that kind of stuff. So I wasn’t—luckily for me, ‘cause it’s not the experience of my parents—I didn’t come to my daughter’s diagnosis with any sort of feelings of tragedy? I was worried. I was worried ‘cause I know the world’s hard. And the world’s very hard. Y’know. One of the first things my daughter said—one of the first sentences she said—was, “The world takes it hard on me, Mum.” Y’know?
biz
									
Oh, baby! Baby! [Laughs.]
nelly
									
I know. I know. Bless her. Y’know? And it does!
biz
									
What is she, eighty? [Both laugh.]
nelly
									
I know! I know. Darling girl. Darling girl. So it’s—y’know, I’m under no illusions that this is a hard world for an autistic person, but I also don’t start from the premise that that means there’s something wrong with them. Y’know. In the same way that—
crosstalk
									
Biz: Oh. Problems for women aren’t their fault either, right? Like, y’know… Nelly: —I don’t know. It’s hard to get around—yeah, that’s right! Exactly right.
biz
									
Wanting to wear a skirt is not your fault. You’re right. It is—it is—you’re rarely the person who suffers the fools that is… the problem. Right? The… their problem is that they have to be in that world. [Laughs.] Y’know?
nelly
									
That’s right. And deal with these fucking dickheads.
biz
									
I know! Well but if—
nelly
									
Y’know? Constantly!
biz
									
If they read—I mean, that’s why I am such a… like… lover of… books. For kids and adults. I just think like… when my kids, y’know, started [through laughter] being alive, and it just was like—at the library. Y’know. Okay, “Preschool’s coming so we’re gonna read books about preschool!” Y’know, like this is—how can we—“We’re going on a trip. Let’s prepare for a trip!” Like, books can offer… parents a really easy way to get information to their kids or to put the stuff that they don’t know how to say into words? And… it also is so powerful, I think, for kids to see themselves in books? And—
nelly
									
So powerful.
biz
									
We just do not know how much that impact can have? And so y’know, I think books like these—A—like, the girl—Some Girls and Some Boys, I think, allows parents to feel normal if their kids are—‘cause guess what? Your kids are not normal. You’re not normal, and yeah. [Nellie laughs.] But we’re all supposed to be normal, so.
nelly
									
Yeah. That’s right. We’re all pretending. Yep.
biz
									
We are all pretending. And then, two, with the neurodiversity one—again, it’s another one to help normalize… feeling experiences, I think, y’know that kids are having and adults are having. You—look. You’re a really wonderful person. [Nellie laughs.] But now fuck that. We’re moving to the thing that I love so much. And that’s the new—
nelly
									
Can I tell you one thing, though?
biz
									
Oh! Okay. You may continue to be—yes. [Laughs.]
nelly
									
This one—this’ll get you. This one will get you in the feels.
biz
									
I’m tired of feeling! Okay.
nelly
									
You will love this one. Alright. So one of my—it’s a great joy to get the messages from the kids and parents of course and I feel seen and all that stuff. One of my favorite ones was an occupational therapist messaged me. And a dad had come in to take his child to speech therapy. And he’s standing there—the child was autistic. He’s standing there at the counter, y’know, at reception, and he starts flipping through my book. I have it on the counter. And he’s reading through it and she said, “He’s looking at it; he’s looking at it;” and then he looked up at her and he said, “Oh my god! I’m not stupid! I’m autistic!”
biz
									
Oh, baby.
nelly
									
Like he had had—this grown man—who’d never been diagnosed, never understood why he had trouble in some areas and y’know could’ve used help and blah, blah blah—had recognized. Because, I think, of the simplicity of it. Had recognized himself in it. And I—god, I love that story.
biz
									
I love that. Well it’s—but it’s true! There are so many of us who… just… y’know. That kind of focus, that kind of study, that kind of diagnosing and resources just—they just weren’t there! Y’know, like, I always—
nelly
									
Especially for women. Yeah.
biz
									
Yeah. I always joke that, y’know, “Well I was in Gifted, but that was long before they discovered ADHD.” [Nellie laughs.] “Oh, she can’t sit still in the classroom? She must be bored and so smart!” Right? You’re like—[Laughs.]
nelly
									
Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes, it’s true!
biz
									
Y’know? I guess, maybe.
nelly
									
Or “she’s naughty.”
biz
									
Yeah. Or “she’s naughty. Naughty, naughty, naughty.” [Laughs without amusement.] Okay. Now—
crosstalk
									
Nelly: Alright, your favorite. Go. Go. [Laughs.] Biz: Thank you for the feels.
biz
									
On this show, we—y’know, our phrase is “stop feeling like shit for being a mom.” And then out comes this beautiful new book, [through laughter] Some Mums (Are Fat Molls). Is it “moles”? It’s “moles,” right?
nelly
									
It’s “molls.” Do you know what “molls” means? Because this is a translation issue.
biz
									
It’s a translation. I know. Please tell me.
nelly
									
It is—it’s one of the—so the title comes from the first heckle I ever got on stage. Right? Which was—I walked out on stage. The audience was about—I dunno—500 people or something. A comedy club during the Melbourne International Comedy Festival. And some little boy, I’ll say, yelled out, “Ay, ya fat moll!” [Biz laughs.] Right? [Laughs.] Which is—I mean, it’s universal, but it’s very particularly Australian. So the word “moll,” it’s kinda—it’s definitely an insult.
biz
									
Yes. Not nice.
nelly
									
It’s not nice. Especially coupled with “fat,” right? [Biz laughs.] But it can also—[Laughs.] It can also be—
biz
									
I’m not sure which word is worse!
nelly
									
Yeah. Which is worse. Exactly. It can be a term of endearment as well. Like I could say to you, “Oh, you gorgeous moll.” Y’know. Like—
biz
									
Is it sort of like “bitches”?
nelly
									
Kind of like “bitches,” in the sense if you were watching Queer Eye. Y’know. Not like if you were driving along and someone yelled out, “Bitches!” [Biz laughs.] Y’know, not that.
biz
									
Okay. Alright.
nelly
									
It’d be more like Jonathan Van Ness kinda going, “You bitches.” That kind of—y’know? Depends on the tone. Yes.
biz
									
Depends on the tone and who’s delivering it!
nelly
									
Who’s delivering it. When a young guy’s yelling at you in the dark and calling you a fat moll, it’s not JVN.
biz
									
No. Okay. Somebody write that down. [Laughs.]
nelly
									
Yeah. [Laughs.]
biz
									
Make a note of that. That could be your next book: Things to Not Say in a Dark Room if You Are a Male. [Nellie laughs.] Alright. So guys, I’m just—I’m going to just read some of this to you. Because I have the author here so I can get away with this!
nelly
									
Please.
biz
									
Alright! Okay. I’m just gonna start at the beginning. “Some mums dress like this.” Now I will let everyone know—these are—this is a mother and daughter wearing matching outfits and they look very lovely.
nelly
									
Pretty. Yeah.
biz
									
Very pretty. And then—[Laughs.] And then it’s “Some mums dress like that.” And it is a woman with multicolored hair and her boogie board—body board—surfboard—whatever you call these—in a wetsuit not as made up. I’m gonna say that.
nelly
									
No.
biz
									
No. And then—
nelly
									
Au naturale. She actually looks like your lovely producer.
biz
									
I know! She does look a little like Gabe! [Nellie laughs.] “Some mums dress to the nines.” I don’t need to describe how nice this other woman looks. And then “Others dress like crap.” [Laughs.] It’s so good! It’s so good. “Crap.” And here’s the thing—everybody should be able to imagine this instantly. The one that dresses quote-unquote like “crap” is taking her kids to school in her pajamas. Because we all said, “I’m never gonna be that mom” and then we are all that mom. [Nellie laughs.] And then this is followed with, “All mums can wear whatever the fuck they want.” Now you had me there. But then you—
nelly
									
Yeah. I thought I might’ve.
biz
									
You could’ve stopped the book.
nelly
									
Right. That could’ve been done. That would’ve saved me a lot of money in printing.
biz
									
Oh! Sooo much! But we go into how we look. We go into [through laughter] “whoever they want to fuck.” [Nellie laughs.] We go into like just—don’t even—“No mum is perfect. Don’t even try to win. No mums will always win.” And it just goes on. “All mums can root however the fuck they want.” [Nellie laughs.] Like it is so… good. It’s so—
nelly
									
Do you know what “root” means?
biz
									
What? Yes. Hold on. Wait. [Nellie laughs.] Oh yes! Masturbate. Isn’t that it?
nelly
									
No. No! [Laughs.]
biz
									
I’m looking at the picture wrong. [Laughs wildly.] Well it says they can pat their own chinchillas.
nelly
									
Well that means masturbate.
biz
									
Yeah! Sex. Have sex.
nelly
									
Yeah. It does. “Root” in Australia—which I know—from American friends I’ve said “root” before and “route” is like directions, right?
biz
									
Oh, okay. There are two types of roots. Yes. You can “route” or “route,” or “I am a little piggie and I am rooting for truffles with my snout. Root, root, root, root, root, root, root, root!” Which is—
nelly
									
Yes! And whenever we—when I watch American movies with my kids and someone says “I’m rooting for you” we all like crack up. It’s the funniest thing ever. “Root” means “fuck.” So if you go, “I wanna root you. How about a root?” Right?
biz
									
“How about a root?” [Laughs.]
nelly
									
Yeah. That means like a, [makes hooting noise]. [Biz laughs.]
biz
									
Alright. So I can’t imagine why you wrote this book. [Nellie laughs.] It’s not like this entire eight years of podcasting hasn’t been about the fact that once you have kids in your house, you’re completely fucked as a Self. And you have to be everything to—
nelly
									
Who am I?
biz
									
—everyone. Yeah. “Who am I?” Well I am not the 20,000 other people I’m told I’m supposed to be.
nelly
									
[Singing] What about me? It isn’t fair! Yeah.
biz
									
Oh yeah! So I also wanna emphasize to people—[Laughs.] Sorry. I just love this book. I also wanna emphasize to people that—again—the diversity and reflection of how different we all are. Stands out. For example, I’m gonna go back to “Some mums dress like this” and sometimes it takes a second glance to notice that the mother-daughter in the matching outfits—and the very lovely, put-together mom—also has a birthmark that goes over her face.
nelly
									
Correct.
biz
									
Which is… awesome.
nelly
									
I’m so glad you noticed that. No one has noticed that yet.
biz
									
Really?
nelly
									
No one.
biz
									
I win! I win!
nelly
									
You do win. Well done.
biz
									
Well yes. [Laughs.] There’s also, “Some mums have a hairy snatch.”
crosstalk
									
Biz: “Others prefer to wax.” Nelly: They do! You know what a “snatch” is.
biz
									
My god. I do know what a snatch is. I’m international, Nelly. [Nellie laughs.] I understand “snatch.” Look, if it’s a word about a woman and can be used in a derogative way? It’s international.
nelly
									
You know. You know.
biz
									
But you also had a picture. So that was helpful. [Laughs.] [Nellie laughs.]
nelly
									
Yeah. This one’s not a kid’s book. No.
biz
									
Not a—not a—no. Alright. So talk to me about… [goofy voice] “Why’d you write this book?” is a dumb question. “Why would you do this? Aren’t you satisfied?” [Nellie laughs.]
nelly
									
Yeah. no. I’m not. You know it’s interesting on the diversity thing—‘cause obviously I get asked that a lot. About the diversity in all of the books. And this sounds really trite, but I really honestly meant it sincerely—this is my community! Like this is not—y’know, and you know this. But it bears repeating. At least half the mums in that book are my friends. [Biz laughs.] Like literally are my friends! ‘Cause I thought, “You know what? If I’m gonna pay an illustrator, I’ll get my friends some portraits done!” [Biz laughs.] Like literally. So I mean I am, of course, conscious about diversity and I do think to myself, “Who’s not here?” Y’know, “Who’s not being represented? How are they being represented? Is the kid in the wheelchair sittin gin the corner being read to looking sad? Fuck that! She’s gonna be playing tug-o-war.” You know what I mean? So of course it’s conscious. But at the same time I go, “This is not radical. This is where I live!” You know? These are my people!
biz
									
But I was also just thinking—as like you sort of rephrased what I was saying but I clearly still said it—this notion of when people ask about the diversity. It’s—it makes you go back to that, like… when people ask about the kid in the skirt. Right? It’s—because there has been, I think, there has definitely been—not “I think”—the notion that there is only one way to parent and there is only one way to look as a parent. And y’know, you do not see that in parenting books. You do not find it in children’s books. It’s very—y’know. And… the women in this book… are—they look like people.
nelly
									
They look like us!
biz
									
They look like us!
nelly
									
They look like us, y’know. And again, that is the—even though I say it’s not radical, what has been radical—I keep getting messages from women going, “I opened it and I cried.” Y’know. “I just cried. Like, tears of relief. Either because I was seen or because some mum was saying to me, ‘I’m okay.’” Y’know, like the amount of anxiety that is put on women, as though we can create these perfect humans—and we don’t get to define what’s “perfect,” by the way. But as though we have control over these beings. And that if we happen to order takeaway instead of, y’know, cook fucking farm-to-plate every night—- [Biz laughs.] —that they will somehow end up being—I don’t know what.
crosstalk
									
Nelly: Some version of a human that they’re not meant to be. Biz: Well it’s always your fault.
biz
									
It’s always your fault!
nelly
									
Always your—it doesn’t matter if you’re doing everything right. Everything wrong. Whatever action your child takes in the world as an infant to a grown person—it is—
biz
									
You did it.
nelly
									
—your fault. And if you don’t already just feel that way on your own—like, without any helpf rom the world—go and tell your problem to somebody so that they can let you know how much it’s your fault. Right? Like, y’know, like, “Hey, I need help with this and I’m really struggling with—” “Well, have you tried—” [Laughs.]
crosstalk
									
Biz: “Well I have tried—” Nelly: “Have you had a turmeric latte?”
nelly
									
“Are you doing pilates? Because you’re really let yourself go!” What the fuck? So I’m supposed to be creating these perfet humans, plus I’m supposed to go to a waxing appointment, plus I’m supposed to be on the treadmill, and I’m working too much. I’m not working enough.
biz
									
Don’t forget working. Yeah.
nelly
									
Oh my—but you can’t win with that. You’re either working too much or you’ve given up your career and you’re a doormat. [Biz laughs.] There is no win. So it’s me just trying to say to women—y’know, and as much to women as to myself—you know what? You love these children. You love them. You care for them. They have won the lottery.
biz
									
Yeah! Yeah!
nelly
									
They have won the goddamn lottery. They are loved and they’re cared for. The rest is bullshit. Stop taking advice.
biz
									
That’s right. Stop taking advice. Ugh. If we could all just—we do on the show—we have a thing where we just have a rant. People can call in and just rant. And we’re not gonna tell ‘em what the fuck to do. We’re just gonna say, “You’re okay.” And on the—like, one of our Facebook groups—you can start a post by saying “This is a rant.” Right? “I don’t want advice!”
nelly
									
“Don’t give me advice!” Oh Jesus.
biz
									
“Don’t give me anything! I just honest-to-god need to know I’m doing an okay job.” Right? ‘Cause like—even the most helpful, y’know, intention can make you—like, Theresa, my cohost, she and I used to sit there and say, “Obviously I have tried x, y, z, p, d, and q. I guarantee you I’ve been up for a week on Google trying to figure—so when I come to you and say, ‘My kid is not doing such-and-such’ or ‘is doing such-and-such,’ Yeah! I’ve probably tried!” [Laughs.]
crosstalk
									
Biz: “All I’m looking for is a pat on the fucking back!” Upside-down and inside-out! Nelly: Probably I have turned myself—that’s right. Inside-out.
nelly
									
So my older daughter has—which I won’t go into, y’know, in too much detail, but she has a chronic illness that she’s had for a number of years. And I made the fatal mistake of talking about that on radio. [Biz gasps.] Because it was a Chronic Illness Awareness Week. Some fucking thing. I specifically said, “I do not want advice.” Like, we are at the Royal Children’s Hospital. We have these specialists. Please do not—I don’t want advice. It’s wearing me out. What did I get home to?
biz
									
Like an inbox full of fucking advice?
nelly
									
“Have you tried turmeric? Have you had an [inaudible] in your house? Have you—” She literally put “She must be getting bullied.” Honest to god, who’ve never met this child. Who’ve never met me. You could listen to me for five minutes and know I’m a Type A, fucking try everything freakazoid. [Biz laughs.] If you think I haven’t Googled it, mate. You know?
biz
									
I have tried turmeric!
nelly
									
I have given it a go. We have tried garlic. We’ve tried—we have tried—how about you just sit with the discomfort that it’s really sad and hard to have a child who’s sick? How about you just go, “Well done, mum. Well done.”
biz
									
Yeah! I was gonna say—that’s what we need to be doing. Is the, “Oh my god, that sounds really hard! You’re doing a really good job! Oh myg od, that sounds fucking exhausting!” Y’know?
nelly
									
Yeah. And you know the next thing people say—this will not surprise you—“Oh, I hope you’re making time for yourself.” “Oh, how would I do that exactly?” God, I can’t stand when people say that to women. Ugh.
biz
									
Like, to women. ‘Cause it’s whether you have kids or not, they always are like, y’know, “Are you gonna have a little time—” and we’ve wrestled with that for years on this show. Like, is it self-care to be sitting in the grocery store parking lot crying? Maybe! You know what? Fucking maybe. There was a time I said, “No, it wasn’t. That shouldn’t be.” But now I think maybe it should be. Right? Like—
nelly
									
I’ll tell you what—during lockdown—and keep in mind that I am a Women’s Health Ambassador, right? During lockdown there was one point I was hiding from my own children— [Biz laughs.] —sitting in the shed with a gin and tonic and a cigarette that I’d bummed off a neighbor—
biz
									
Oh! Forever ago! I know what you’re talking about, though! [Nellie laughs.]
nelly
									
Like a teenager!
biz
									
Like a teenager. I love it.
nelly
									
Hiding from my own children.
nelly
									
Yeah. Yep. You gotta like—y’know—go into the bathroom and turn all the fans on. [Biz laughs.] [Laughs.] That’ll do it!
nelly
									
And then have a shower!
crosstalk
									
Biz :And then have a shower! Yeah. And then burn your clothes. Oh, shame on— Nelly: And wear gloves. And oh my god. The shame. The shame. But yeah.
nelly
									
I just wanted women to kinda go just cut out the noise. Enough already. Enough already. You’re okay.
biz
									
Yeah. No. It’s—you managed to do that—it like… with a real… impactful… like… it’s—this is not a complicated book. [Laughs.]
nelly
									
No! Not at all!
biz
									
It is direct. And the illus—you have such a wonderful illustrator because you capture—again—the feeling of real people. And y’know?
nelly
									
Yeah. That’s right. That’s right.
biz
									
And that just marries so well with what you’re saying, which is—y’know, comedians, it’s easy to say, “Those are funny.” But what they are is really…
crosstalk
									
Biz: True. Nelly: Is real.
nelly
									
Can you imagine our text messages? Me and the illustrator? I’m like, “Bud, there’s not enough pubes.” [Biz laughs.] “There’s not enough pubes. No, she’s not fat enough. No, no.” This is literally our text chain. She texts me going, “How do we do up the bum? I can’t do it.” And I’m like, “Just bums on a bench. Bums on a bench.” “How many?” Y’know? [Laughs.]
biz
									
I gotta tell you, this owman—again, going back to the rooting and masturbation—this woman sitting on the chair with the giant cat—
nelly
									
Bev.
biz
									
Is that Bev?
nelly
									
Bev Killick is an Australian comedian.
crosstalk
									
Biz: I wanna party with Bev. Nelly: Filthy as fuck.
nelly
									
Absolutely filthy. She was the only friend of mine that would agree to be the masturbation mum. Right? [Biz laughs.] I asked her and she went, “No worries.”
biz
									
Yeah. Done.
nelly
									
“What do you want me to do? Done.” [Both laugh.]
biz
									
That is a friend. That is a good friend.
nelly
									
That’s one of my favorite pages, that one.
biz
									
It is such a good—like, if I could hang that on a wall—like, instead of pin-up tattoos, everybody, we need to get all of these women tattooed on our bodies.
nelly
									
Yes. Bev with the chinchilla.
biz
									
Oh my god, I fucking love it. Alright, Nelly. Thank you so much.
nelly
									
Thank you so much. What a joy it’s been.
biz
									
This has been a total delight. I love you. And now—
nelly
									
I’m coming back, whether you like me or not.
biz
									
No! We should come back and just talk about something else horrible. My older one is entering the tween—I had mine a little later than yours so I’m fucking broken.
nelly
									
Let’s do it! The tweens! Yeah, yeah!
biz
									
Seven and eleven. And the tweening—the tweening around here—
nelly
									
Oh, no. It’s intense. The hormone years. It’s intense.
biz
									
I was saying at the beginning of the show, I can feel a energy about me. That like when they come in the room. Whatever this fog of tween-ness is, I don’t… it doesn’t make me feel settled. [Laughs.]
nelly
									
Look, mum, you’re doing everything wrong. If you’d just accept that—
biz
									
Oh, I know. Yeah. I know.
nelly
									
You’re not cool. You’re doing everything wrong. You’ve fucked up their whole lives. Just go with that. Wait it out until they’re 25 and you’ll be golden!
biz
									
I know. That’s—I’m—this is—this is the parenting zone I was made for. [Nellie laughs.] For tweens. Not babies. But making life awkward and uncomfortable for children. This is—I was made for this. Alright. Everybody, we are gonna link you up to where you can find all of the Some books—Some Girls, Some Boys, Some Brains, Some—there is literally something for everybody! Which is amazing.
nelly
									
Oh, yeah. And there’ll be more coming. Yeah.
biz
									
I fucking love it. Until then, thank you so much for joining us and I agree! Let’s do this again sometime!
nelly
									
Yeah. Love to. Thanks for having me.
biz
									
Thank you so much for joining us and for writing these books. [Nelly makes kissing noises.] And you know what? You really are doing a very good job.
nelly
									
Awww, bless. Right back at ya. Right back at ya. Under his eye.
music
									
“Ones and Zeroes” by “Awesome.” Steady, driving electric guitar with drum and woodwinds. [Music fades out.]
theresa
									
Hey, everybody! We have a Jumbotron this week! This message is for Shanna from Stu!
biz
									
[Cheerful ukulele music with whistling plays in background.] [Singing] “Happy birthday to you! Woo! [Regular voice] Happy birthday. You are an amazing self, wife, and mother. We have many fails and geniuses ahead but I am glad I get to share them with you.” To be clear, that’s Stu saying that. In Biz’s voice. [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.] “Happy birthday, Shanna! You are doing a really good job.” And Stu, so are you. [Music fades.]
theresa
									
Hey, you know what it’s time for! This week’s genius and fails! This is the part of the show where we share our genius moment of the week, as well as our failures, and feel better about ourselves by hearing yours. You can share some of your own by calling 206-350-9485. That’s 206-350-9485.
biz
									
Genius [singing] faillll tiiiime! [Regular voice] Genius fail time! It’s time for geniuses and failures! [Laughs.] That we share publicly! [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.] Hi, Theresa.
theresa
									
Hi.
biz
									
I feel like I have to announce the segment, but maybe I should start—this segment should not be called “genius fail time” anymore and it should just be called [singing] “Iiiiit’s Theresa!” [Both laugh.] “Iiiiit’s Theresa!”
theresa
									
For a second I thought you were gonna say instead of calling it genius fail time, we should call it Theresa time. And I—
biz
									
Oh, it’s Theresa time.
theresa
									
I feel like that’s kind of cute and just makes me think of kindergarten and the library.
biz
									
It could also be misconstrued as insulting. “It’s Theresa time. Time for failures.” [Laughs.]
theresa
									
Right. That’s very true. But I feel like at this point with the show—like—
biz
									
We should probably keep it genius fail time, is that what you’re suggesting? [Laughs.]
theresa
									
Oh, definitely. I definitely do think we should probably not change the name of possibly our most memorable segment on this show for the past eight years.
biz
									
Alright. I’m gonna get a pen. Hold on. I gotta write this down. [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.] The bottom line is that it’s just a chance for me to say hello to my good friend, Theresa, who I get to talk to once a week.
theresa
									
Yep. I’m here. [Both laugh.] I’m so sorry. It’s—
biz
									
No, don’t apologize for being here. No.
theresa
									
Just—just—yeah. I made it.
biz
									
You made it.
theresa
									
Yeah.
biz
									
Honk, honk.
theresa
									
Yeah!
biz
									
With that said—genius me, Theresa!
clip
									
[Dramatic, swelling music in background.] Biz: Wow! Oh my God! Oh my God! I saw what you did! Oh my God! I’m paying attention! Wow! You, mom, are a genius. Oh my God, that’s fucking genius! [Biz and Theresa repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss their respective genius moments of the week.]
theresa
									
Okay. I’m excited to share this because it’s another one of kind of like a whole area of genius moments that I feel I’ve been exploring lately on this show? Which is the “I didn’t do anything; I stood back and let things resolve themselves out of laziness and being too tired.” So I talked recently about how I picked a terrible dishwasher and it broke right away and has been this nightmare for us to try to get repaired. And at one point about… four or six weeks ago, we were told, y’know, that this part was ordered that was on backorder with no estimated ship date. And that we should really just go talk to our warranty company because they just had no—in other words, there was no expected date at which point we would get a part and get the dishwasher fixed. Which was really tough for me to take. [Biz laughs.] Because I really… really didn’t want to return the dishwasher and get another one? And I didn’t want to get my money back and have to choose another—I just didn’t wanna deal with all of it? And I also didn’t wanna do so many dishes. And so—[Laughs.] It was tough.
biz
									
Yeah. It’s a flip of the coin there! [Laughs.]
theresa
									
Yeah! And things have been so crazy with going back to school. I’ve had less time than ever to make phone calls and of course none of this stuff is stuff you can just do through a website. Because people don’t want you to return an appliance, period. And they don’t want you to return an appliance that you’ve had for months. They just don’t want to make that easy for you. So I reached out to the retailer. They said it’s not us that you need to talk to. I went to the manufacturer. They said you didn’t pay for this thing so you have to talk to these—it was just like a whole thing. And then this one day I made the time to call and the person hung up on me. It was amazing. It was one of those things where I made it all the way through all the steps to get to the person and then I just heard a muffled click and it just was a hang up. Before they even said hello.
biz
									
They’re like high-fiving the moment that happened, by the way. You know. They’re like, “Haha!” They’ve got a scoreboard going and they’re marking it like, “I just got one! Check!”
theresa
									
So I gave up. I gave up for a while.
biz
									
Oh, you gave up? Good. Okay.
theresa
									
I gave up for a while. It was like a month of me giving up and thinking to myself, “I need to do this but I haven’t. And I will but it’s gonna involve multiple steps and having a quiet place to make a phone call. And having the ability to talk through these problems without crying because of everything else.” Do you know what I’m saying? Being at a place where I can be a person who’s like, “No, you guys just really need to take this appliance back.” I had to be—
biz
									
You need like a week off in a cabin.
theresa
									
Exactly! To do this. So I didn’t! I didn’t. But then—but then the part just arrived in the mail. [Laughs.] [Biz laughs.] It just showed up! It just showed up at our door! It came! And so I texted the servicepeople and they made an appointment to come out two days later and they came and they fixed it [through laughter] and now my dishwasher’s working. [Biz laughs.]
biz
									
Oh! I… that is a real salute to just walking away from something. It is—one can only hope that that will always be the result. Of walk—and it won’t be! But one can hope that it is. I gotta tell ya—I just want you to know that I really see you with the—this is definitely before-kids, after-kids; before-pandemic, after-pandemic; before-Self, after-goodbye Self. For whatever. Trying to make a phone call—it sounds absurd. It sounds like you’re a real asshole if you can’t pick up the phone and make a phone call. I understand. But it’s really actually very hard, given the amount of interruptions that you will have! And the quiet space! And the—you almost want a comical phone, like something like oversized, because your kids are still gonna walk by and ask you, “Are you on the phone? Are you done yet?” I really see you. I’m gonna keep holding this phone—no one can see me doing this—but I’m still holding a giant phone next to my head. Y’know, we’ve said it. This is for the fucking dishwasher. And you think about like fucking medical insurance and bills and navigating school stuff for your kid—
theresa
									
Well and that’s the stuff that I can’t walk away from. That’s the thing. There’s things that I cannot walk away from. Despite the fact that I want to so badly! So badly wanna walk away!
biz
									
Run! Run away! You wanna run away from it!
theresa
									
Yes! And so this—I guess—it’s like it’s finding those things that I can just let slide until someone else catches ‘em. Y’know? [Biz laughs.]
biz
									
Ding-dong! Here’s your part! Well I think you’re doing a remarkable job.
theresa
									
Thank you, Biz.
biz
									
You’re welcome. Almost as annoying as phone calls would be paperwork for various school or camp things. Now I—summer is not gonna be summer again. But the school that the kids have been going back to a couple of days a week will be doing a summer camp kind of art thing. And that is great. So I have to fill out forms for that. And we also have to do some end-of-year school “will you be coming back next year” school paperwork. As well as the weekly COVID testing that we have to do with the school. These are forms. They all require the medical information for your child. They all require the doctor’s name, the doctor’s office, and your insurance number. And let’s see. My chil—
theresa
									
It’s always the thing I don’t have, by the way.
biz
									
Yes! My children—to the point where I usually try and just get Stefan to do forms. Okay? Or I do all the forms and then say, “Can you fill out the rest of this?” And it’s just that one chunk. Right? So let’s see. I have an eleven-year-old and a seven-year-old. I’ve been filling these forms out for a really long time. And this information, for the most part, hasn’t changed. So the genius is, I said to Stefan—when I was filling out the last bit of paperwork—“Hey, next time we’re filling out this paperwork, let’s make a contact card. Write it down on an index card and keep it in our address book or something or put it in the computer so you just pull it up as a contact.” And he was like, “That is a really good idea.” And I was like, “Thank you very much.” I wanna be clear—we didn’t do it at that time. [Theresa laughs.] And that form is still not filled out ‘cause I was kind of like—well maybe—[Laughs.] “Maybe Stefan will fill out this—maybe he’ll do it and we’ll do it at the same time!” But neither of us have. Also, I’ve left the forms on the kitchen counter so they’ve got garbage all over them so I have to fill them out again. But the genius is I had this idea and it’s a really good one! [Laughs.]
theresa
									
Wow. I… have never loved you more than I do right now.
biz
									
Thanks. Yeah.
theresa
									
Good job having an idea. It’s a good idea.
biz
									
It’s like pie. [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.] Can I have a slice of pie? Thinking about pie and I’m thinking about a way to solve this problem.
theresa
									
And that is a great idea.
biz
									
It is a great idea. Thank you very much. [Laughs.]
caller
									
[Answering machine beeps.] Hey, guys! This is a genius. So I’m meeting a mom in the park tomorrow who I have not previously met who made the very brave choice to—when she saw my OBM bumper sticker at the Culvert’s drive-thru—to go up to my husband’s window and talk to him. And now I might actually have a friend. Which is a thing I have not had since I started being a stay-at-home parent in January 2020 and all the options for making friends went away really fast. So thank you for existing. Because your show means that I might get to make a friend! You’re doing a really great job! So is Rebecca, who I get to meet tomorrow! Bye, guys!
biz
									
[Singing] Making friends-hends-hends! For all the world to see! [Regular voice] Isn’t that an Elton John song? I dunno. Listen, I—this is so great! There are so many geniuses happening here. Okay? One, you clearly might have a “Honk, honk if you’re doing it” sticker or you might just have the regular OBM sticker. Either way! Either way, that’s very exciting. But A, to the One Bad Mother listener who saw that tag and went up to the car—you are a real lifesaver. I mean, you did—you saw and you said, “I don’t know if this is gonna work out but we at least have this one starting place and I’m gonna go there.” Good job to the husband for not just screaming— [Theresa laughs.] —when somebody knocked on his window door. And he might have! I dunno. I dunno. Like [screams]. But like—
theresa
									
Or maybe it was like a good screaming, like [enthusiastic screaming!] A new friend! One Bad Mother!
biz
									
And then good job to you for following up and making the plans to go meet at the park! I just—yeah! Mom friends are hard. Real hard. And I just… I think this is so great. You’re doing—everybody’s doing such a good job.
theresa
									
Yes. Good job.
biz
									
Failures.
clip
									
[Dramatic orchestral music plays in the background.] Theresa: [In a voice akin to the Wicked Witch of the West] Fail. Fail. Fail. FAIL! [Timpani with foot pedal engaged for humorous effect.] Biz: [Calmly] You suck! [Biz and Theresa repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss their respective failures of the week.]
biz
									
Fail me, Theresa.
theresa
									
Okay. I allowed my child to spend her money on a very crappy sound effects machine that turns out to not only have a very distressing quote-unquote “fax machine” sound? It’s really more like the old modem sound? Like—I’m not gonna make it. And it also has a gunshot sound!
biz
									
Oh. That’s relaxing.
theresa
									
We actually went out of our way to try not to get the gun—one with a gunshot, which a lot of them have. This one had something called “Bang!” Which I said, “That could be anything.” But it turns out to just totally sound like a gunshot.
biz
									
Maybe it sounds like a baby! [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.]
theresa
									
This thing is… just truly the last thing that we need in our house. I’ll just leave it at that. We do not need this in our lives. But here it is.
biz
									
It’s there.
theresa
									
It’s here. Yeah.
biz
									
I’m sorry. You’re doing a horrible job.
theresa
									
Yeah. I know.
biz
									
My fail ties in to this in the sense of “allowing.” ‘K? Again—allowing. Kids are older! Kids are older. Gotta do a lot of allowing. And I understand—
theresa
									
Yeah! Choose your battles!
biz
									
Yeah! It’s “choose your battles” plus “older/gotta start letting ‘em do some shit that they don’t really need.” Y’know? Like this is—ugh! I gotta step away or they’re gonna be 30 asking me if they can buy something. Right? Like I—y’know. But we’re in that window, age-wise, of the fine line. Fine line of like—how much should I input; how much should I not input? But for us in terms of allowing, it’s been a lot of like… sweets. Soda-y type drinks. And computer time. And I’ll just focus on computer time at this point? There’s been a lot of working on a novella. And there has been some work. On a novella. But… there is a remarkable amount of time that I am beginning to be suspicious is not being focused on novella. It might be on other websites. Other everything.
theresa
									
“Might be”?
biz
									
Is. Is. It is. I don’t need to prove it. But I probably will. Later today. [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.] To myself. But there’s just—the fail is really just that sense of… it’s all—it’s—[sighs.] Feeling like I know that I’m partly to blame for it because of the “Fine. It’s fine. Fine. Fine. Just do it. Fine. I just—go be whatever! Fine!” Right? Like—so I get it! Like I get that there is a chunk of this that I have contributed to because I did not have the energy to set boundaries. But I feel like the failure is more how much I just want to give up on trying to rein this back in. Y’know? Just like… maybe somebody’ll send me the part in the mail if I just… step back.
theresa
									
Yeah. I think it could happen.
biz
									
I think it could—[Laughs.] That or something much worse might show up in the mail. [Theresa laughs.] I dunno. Anyway! Parenting! Ha, ha, ha, ha!
theresa
									
[Answering machine beeps.] [Tearfully] Hi, ladies! I guess I’m calling with a little bit of a fail. I’m a new mom to a second baby. And I thought it would be really great to take my older daughter back to swim lessons. And she was awful. She was a terrible listener. They basically ended the lesson early because— [Biz laughs.] —she was such a terrible listener. And I get it. I know that she’s only been a big sister for like two-and-a-half weeks and that there are lots of changes. And that it probably didn’t help that my newborn was crying bloody murder in the background during the lesson, but it was humiliating. A sixteen-year-old swim instructor made me feel like an absolutely terrible mom today. So… I don’t know what I was thinking, scheduling a four-year-old for private lessons at 6:30 at night when she’s a big sister for the first time. [Biz laughs.] What a terrible idea. [Laughs.] I don’t know what we’re ever going to do. But I’m not sure I’m ever going to feel competent enough to show my face at swim lessons again. So that’s my fail. Thanks for everything you do. It makes me feel better. [Laughs.] When I do it. Thanks.
biz
									
Okay. First of all—I’m just gonna start with—I know that I’m supposed to start with “you’re doing a really good job.” But I’m not.
theresa
									
No, no, no! I thought you’re supposed to start with “you suck.”
biz
									
Okay. Also, you suck. But what I really wanna start with it—you can go to any fucking swim lesson you fucking want! That fucking sixteen-year-old’s not thinking shit about you and if she is? Ugh. She’s being a really bad sixteen-year-old. She should be worried about a million other things. Okay?
theresa
									
Yeah. She didn’t—she wasn’t able to help your kid! Like, that’s also on her! Like, that’s—
biz
									
Yeah! Also on her! I agree. Second, you have a brand-new baby. I just—that’s just—
theresa
									
That’s it.
biz
									
That’s it! There is super-brain is happening. This is not a time in which we should self-judge any decisions we make. This is a time where we should just accept and understand we’re gonna make all kind of weirdo decisions. Possibly—as I have learned—for the next eleven years. Okay? And you have a four-year-old!
theresa
									
Right! Yeah.
biz
									
Yeah! I appreciate that you tried doing something.
theresa
									
Totally.
biz
									
It’s like—that’s kind of remarkable!
theresa
									
And this is also— [Biz laughs.] This is just like—I’m just thinking about the newborn situation. At two weeks—I mean, two weeks, really a newborn. But this would be true at two months or even at two years. You tried something. It didn’t work out.
biz
									
Yep.
theresa
									
It didn’t work out. It definitely didn’t work out. You’re awesome. You’re amazing.
biz
									
You’re actually above and beyond that you tried something in this particular moment.
theresa
									
Yeah! And it didn’t work out! It’s fine. Totally fine.
biz
									
You need a reward. You should reward yourself for having tried something. Also, one last thing—I really like the way you said, “I am a new mom to a second child” because that is really what it is. Isn’t it? Like, you are a new mom again! Because they ain’t the same! You’re being a new mom all over again. I kind of really like that line of thinking. And now with that said—sit back and get ready for it. The real fail. Scheduling it at 6:30 at night. [Both laugh wildly.] That’s the only thing I will laugh about. You’re doing a horrible job. Wrapped up in a really, really good job.
music
									
“Mom Song” by Adira Amram. Mellow piano music with lyrics. You are the greatest mom I’ve ever known. I love you, I love you. When I have a problem, I call you on the phone. I love you, I love you. [Music fades out.]
music
									
Inspirational keyboard music plays in background.
theresa
									
One Bad Mother is supported in part by Dipsea. Everyone needs an escape, but those can be hard to come by right now. Enter Dipsea. Let yourself get lost in a world where good things happen and where your pleasure is the only priority.
biz
									
What?! Somebody wants my pleasure to be [through laughter] the only priority? Guys, Dipsea is an audio app full of short, sexy stories designed to turn you on. And what’s really nice is you can actually go in and sort of select what you like; what you definitely don’t want; so that you’re not gonna run the risk of getting a story in which you’re very uncomfortable or it takes you someplace you did not want to go. And I find—for me personally, that’s incredibly important.
theresa
									
So for listeners of One Bad Mother, Dipsea’s offering an extended 30-day free trial when you go to DipseaStories.com/badmother.
biz
									
That’s 30 days of full access for free when you go to D-I-P-S-E-AStories.com/badmother.
theresa
									
DipseaStories.com/badmother. [Music ends.]
promo
									
Music: Throbbing, dramatic, low-toned music plays in background. Ross: [In deep, dramatic voice] Somewhere between science and superstition, there is a podcast. [Sinister knocking interspersed with screams.] Ross: Look, your daughter doesn’t say she’s a demon. She says she’s the devil himself. Carrie: [With uncharacteristic drawl] That thing is not my daughter! And I want you to tell me there’s a show where the hosts don’t just report on fringe science and spirituality, but take part themselves! Music: Swinging, reassuring, low-key music plays in background. Ross: Well, there is! And it’s Oh No! Ross and Carrie on Maximum Fun. Carrie: This year we actually became certified exorcists. Ross: So yes, Carrie and I can help your daughter! [Terrifying noises, including chainsaw] Carrie: Or we can just talk about it on the show. [Sinister background noises begin again.] Ross: [Deep voice again] Oh No! Ross and Carrie on MaximumFun.org.
promo
									
Music: Sophisticated electronic/string music. Teresa McElroy: Shmanners. Noun. Definition: rules of etiquette designed not to judge others, but rather to guide ourselves through everyday social situations. [Music stops.] Travis McElroy: Hello, internet! I’m your husband host, Travis McElroy. Teresa: And I’m your wife host, Teresa McElroy. Travis: Every week on Shmanners, we take a look at a topic that has to do with society or manners. We talk about the history of it. We take a look at how it applies to everyday life. And we take some of your questions. And sometimes, we do a biography about a really cool person that had an impact on how we view etiquette. [Music fades back in.] Travis: So, join us every Friday and listen to Shmanners on MaximumFun.org, or wherever podcasts are found. Teresa: Manners shmanners. Get it? [Music ends on a bright chord.]
biz
									
It’s time to settle in and hold Theresa’s hand virtually. And listen to a mom have a breakdown.
caller
									
[Answering machine beeps.] Hi, this is a rant. So I’m a teacher. And I’m teaching hybrid-concurrent—simultaneous, whatever you wanna call it—where I have kids on Zoom and kids in the room and it’s garbage and it’s terrible. And it’s bad! And it’s not good for anyone and I hate it and—[yelling] hang on just a second!—[quietly] if that isn’t freaking indicative of everything. [Regular volume] Anyway, I rushed out of school today with my son at the end of the day so he could go to his nutritionist appointment virtually. And I sat for thirty minutes and… she got caught up in another meeting and so we have to reschedule. So I rushed us around and got us all situated and now we have to reschedule the fucking appointment. And now we are hitting on the door and screaming and freaking out because he needs me right away. And so I just needed a place to say that this is all garbage and I hate it. [Biz laughs.] And… it’s bad. That’s all.
theresa
									
You’re doing such a good job. And I relate to this so much. I’m not a teacher, but I am on the other end witnessing how hard it is to do—to have Zoom—Oscar’s teacher is doing this for first graders. And she amazes me. Like I watch her doing it and I don’t—I honestly don’t understand how she’s doing it. And I have so much sympathy, empathy, appreciation for what you’re doing. I honestly do not understand how a person does that even for one day, let alone— [Biz laughs.]
biz
									
Yeah!
theresa
									
—two-to-four days a week or however many days a week you’re doing that. That’s such a hard headspace to be in for an extended period of time. You’re amazing. And then I just have to say on the scheduling thing, we have a lot of providers in our family? And— [Biz laughs.]
biz
									
Sorry, I just had to say—when you said “I’m not a teacher but—" I thought you were gonna say “I’m not a teacher, but I am a appointment go-to-er.” [Laughs.] Y’know. [Laughs.]
theresa
									
The situation with providers right now with three kids having different people they have appointments with every week—and with the school schedules changing so much—I truly have to breathe through fits of emotional rage when I hear from a provider that they’re missing an appointment. And it’s for providers that I love! That I know well? That I have a good relationship with. That I don’t have any problem with. And that I totally understand that appointments—you can’t always keep appointments! Life happens. But our lives are so—with all—and I just relate to your call so much because with all of the carefully organized “this happens now and then this goes here and then you do this and this only works if all of these things work together and these people show up for this and this technology works for this time and—” Stuff continues to fall through the cracks as it always has. But for some reason right now? It feels like… just everything falls apart when those things don’t work out. And then it’s like, “Oh, I’m supposed to reschedule? Now I have to—[Laughs.]” This is like the phone call thing!
biz
									
Find a new place!
theresa
									
“—look at a calendar? And try to figure that out?”
biz
									
And a lot of times you wanna just be like, “I’ll see you at our next scheduled appointment.” But that’s not always something you can do. Like if they’re regular appointments. Because your kid may really need to—it’s like therapy! I can’t just wait an extra week. Y’know. My kid’s gotta get in and do it now!
theresa
									
Yes. In other words, this is one of those infuriating things where it’s nobody’s fault? It’s just what is going on right now and it’s so hard. It’s so hard.
biz
									
Well Theresa, you just said “for some reason, it seems harder right now.” [Theresa laughs.] There’s a lot of reasons? There’re multiple reasons? We’ve been living like cats in a jack-in-the-box factory for a year and a half. Just like [screams], like, y’know, in a perpetual state. I was [through laughter] just at my dentist’s and I was like, “Eh, I’ve been having this earache.” And he was like, “Clenching. You’ve been clenching nonstop.” I knew that I did it at night. I have a nightguard. But during the day I clench so much that I’m not even aware of the clenching. Right?
theresa
									
Wow. Yeah.
biz
									
But that’s—I now just think that’s—we’re all walking around like that! Then there’s the knock on your door. And that’s what’s even more exhausting, is you’ve had this day. You’ve had to do all this stuff. Now you’re really emotionally rage-y and upset because of the appointment thing because it’s how you feel. And you have a kid who needs you ASAP, right away. I mean technically they don’t. They’re not trapped under a bookcase. But that sensation of young kids—even my oldest, at eleven, is constantly like, “Mama! Mama! Mama! Mama! Mama! Mama! I wanna tell you this thing! Mama! Mama! Mama! Mama!” And it’s like— [Theresa laughs.] There’s no breathing time! And I just… I—you’re doing such an amazing job. Everything Theresa said about the teaching is true. I’m waiting for the book Zoom and a Room—right? Whatever that just—I loved you saying that. That was amazing. You’re doing a remarkable job. And we see you. Theresa? I see you. I do. I just think—what sucks about this—where we are in the pandemic is you wanna—because it’s been over a year, you wanna say, “What a year!” [Theresa laughs.] As if it’s over, right? [Laughs.] That’s right! I’m like, “Woo! It’s been some year!” But it’s—it’s still going! And so like—
theresa
									
It’s still going. And it’s more than a year now. It’s—
biz
									
It’s way more than a year.
theresa
									
That’s part of it, too. Is now it’s like, “It’s been such a year” but it’s like, “No, it’s been well over a year and it’s not over. It’s not over.”
biz
									
Yeah. And it’s not over. And it’s like lurking! But I don’t know… I don’t have… the ability to find whatever the words are that are—like, we don’t have words for this yet! It’s not over! So you can’t say, “What a year.” Right? [Laughs.] Like I don’t know what it is!
theresa
									
“What a life.”
biz
									
“What a… thing.”
theresa
									
“What a current event.”
biz
									
“What a bunch of current events. What bunch of yesterdays—"
theresa
									
[Through laughter] “What a bunch of current events.”
biz
									
“What a bunch of yesterdays and todays. Huh? What a bunch of yesterdays, todays, and Mondays—amirite?” It’s Monday everywhere.
theresa
									
“How about this every day since March 2020? How is—what about that, every day since then?”
biz
									
“I dunno. House? Woo! It’s been a crazy day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day.” [Theresa laughs.] This is hopefully one of those things where I keep going and then it gets even funnier. “Day after day after day after day—” anyway. Theresa? All of that is to say—you’re doing a very good job.
theresa
									
Thank you, Biz. So are you!
biz
									
Thank you. What did we learn today, everybody? IT’s very straightforward. You get to do whatever the fuck you want to. Be whoever you wanna be and wear whatever you wanna be and love whoever you wanna be and, y’know, like, I—that no one person is the norm, especially when it comes to parenting. And that even though we are all doing it differently, we’re all doing it right. And so I just… I am so… thankful that these books by Nelly are out there. Go get them. I mean, these are really good. These are—again—these are another one of those “get a couple of copies. Some for you. Some for the library. Some for the schools. Some for the showers.” The—whatever. Like, this is good stuff. So we have learned that and we’ve, y’know, learned what we’ve always learned. You guys are really doing a remarkable job. It is impossible. I—[Laughs.] I was thinking about our caller at the beginning said, “This does not suck.” Which I always think is a great way to express when things are going good. ‘Cause it shows you where our bars are, everybody. “This does not suck.” And then at our rant, we have, y’know, “This is all shit! This is hard! And I can’t fucking do this!” Right? “This is just a shitstorm.” Which is very much in the same home as “This doesn’t suck.” ‘Cause sometimes it doesn’t suck and sometimes it sucks really badly. And both are okay. Both are right there for us to sit in. And both of those feelings do not even begin to suggest that you are not doing a good job. Because you are. This is a lot and it feels impossible and it can feel lonely and it can feel like you are completely unsure how you are going to do one more thing. And you are doing a remarkably good job. And I see you. And I will talk to you next week. Byeeee!
music
									
“Mama Blues” by Cornbread Ted and the Butterbeans. Strumming acoustic guitar with harmonica and lyrics. I got the lowdown momma blues Got the the lowdown momma blues Gots the lowdown momma blues The lowdown momma blues. Gots the lowdown momma blues Got the lowdown momma blues You know that’s right. [Music fades somewhat, plays in background of dialogue.]
biz
									
We’d like to thank MaxFun; our producer, Gabe Mara; our husbands, Stefan Lawrence and Jesse Thorn; our perfect children, who provide us with inspiration to say all these horrible things; and of course, you, our listeners. To find out more about the songs you heard on today’s podcast and more about the show, please go to MaximumFun.org/onebadmother. For information about live shows, our book and press, please check out OneBadMotherPodcast.com.
theresa
									
One Bad Mother is a member of the Maximum Fun family of podcasts. To support the show go to MaximumFun.org/donate. [Music continues for a while before fading out.]
music
									
A cheerful ukulele chord.
speaker 1
									
MaximumFun.org.
speaker 2
									
Comedy and culture.
speaker 3
									
Artist owned—
speaker 4
									
—Audience supported.
About the show

One Bad Mother is a comedy podcast hosted by Biz Ellis about motherhood and how unnatural it sometimes is. We aren’t all magical vessels!
Join us every week as we deal with the thrills and embarrassments of motherhood and strive for less judging and more laughing.
Call in your geniuses and fails: 206-350-9485. For booking and guest ideas, please email onebadmother@maximumfun.org. To keep up with One Bad Mother on social media, follow @onebadmothers on Twitter and Instagram.
Get in touch with the show

People

Biz Ellis

Host
Gabe Mara

Producer
How to listen

Stream or download episodes directly from our website, or listen via your favorite podcatcher!