TRANSCRIPT One Bad Mother Episode 394: Secrets Don’t Make Friends, with Dr. Jessica Zucker

Podcast: One Bad Mother

Episode number: 394

Guests: Dr. Jessica Zucker

Transcript

biz

Hi. I’m Biz.

theresa

And I’m Theresa.

biz

Due to the pandemic, we bring you One Bad Mother straight from our homes—including such interruptions as: children! Animal noises! And more! So let’s all get a little closer while we have to be so far apart. And remember—we are doing a good job.

music

“Summoning the Rawk” by Kevin MacLeod. Driving electric guitar and heavy drums. [Continues through dialogue.]

biz

This week on One Bad Mother—secrets don’t make friends! We welcome back Jessica Zucker to talk about her new book, I Had A Miscarriage: A Memoir, A Movement. Plus Biz doesn’t have the answers!

crosstalk

Biz and caller: Wooooo!

caller

My family has pinworms! [Biz laughs.] I didn’t know this was a thing and now I do! I’m sure it came from my four-year-old, who scratches himself and picks his nose all the time. We are about to take our second dose after two weeks and I guess this is also kind of a PSA? Like, folks, if you got an itchy butt, check into pinworms! Maybe you have ‘em! [Biz laughs.] Get rid of those things! Not doing great. Doing better than I was two weeks ago, but… yeah! So. That’s my check-in. PSA. Etcetera. You are doing a great job. Thanks for the show. Bye.

biz

Oh. I love a good woo followed by pinworms. Jesus Christ, I’m so sorry! But look what you learned! You learned a new thing! And absolutely you got this from your four-year-old. [Laughs.] This is something that’s just perfect to blame on a four-year-old! Let’s all remember there have been parasites in this house that we just weren’t aware of for a really long time. Yeah. There’s like a whole list of things that none of us—I would say, there should be a book about all the weird diseases you can get once a child enters into your house. But none of us really wanna look that up? None of us really wanna read that before welcoming a kid into our house? So let’s scratch that idea and instead just do like all parents before us and discover the horrors [through laughter] of the human body every time we get something new! That’s exciting! That’s exciting. Well look, here, you actually are doing a remarkable job. You took care of it. You’re treating it. You’re taking what you need to take for it. That’s a lot, so good job doing that! And as always, thank you for sharing. This is your place to come to share things like that. [Laughs.] So everybody, make a note of the pinworms. You are doing a wonderful job, especially when it comes to helping others. So thank you! Thank you for your PSA. Speaking of people helping others—duh-duh-da-duhhh! Thank you time! Thank you, thank you, thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou—I feel like there should be a song like they sing at Chili’s or something, but it’s like, [singing] Thaaank you, thank you, thank you—[regular voice] I’ll work on that. Thank you every single person in the health care facilities! That’s all of you! That’s everyone! From the doctors to the nurses to the RNs. People are working double, triple shifts still. Thank you to the people who are giving out the vaccine shots! Thank you to the people who are trained and know how to work with ventilators! Thank you to oxygen suppliers! Thank you to the people who are taking the vaccines from where they are made and getting them safely to where they need to be distributed. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you to all those who are going out and getting vaccinated! Good job! That’s amazing! Thank you! When you do it, more will do it. This is great! Thank you to everybody who works to make sure that the medical facilities we need to go into are kept so clean. But it’s not just medical facilities. It’s apartment buildings; condos; schools; shopping centers; grocery stores—there are so many different places where people are stepping up to keep everybody safe. Thank you. So much. Thank you teachers. Oh god, I love you. I love you, teachers. [Laughs.] I love you so much! You’ve had a real hard year. And you just need to know how much we fucking love you. We love you! Thank you to… the postal service. And to the people making vaccines. And the people who are actually out there getting the food that then gets like packaged and shipped to the grocery store. I am talking about farmers. I am talking about ranchers. I am talking about the people who are out there picking fruit. Thank you! And thank you. Everybody, you’re doing amazing. Here’s where I am. I texted Theresa maybe two days ago? It may have even been just last night. And I said this: “I don’t want to answer another ‘where is…?’ question again in my life.” I don’t. “Mama, where is—” I don’t know. I don’t—like, I’m so— [Laughs.] I don’t… I don’t know. I honestly don’t know. “But where is—” I dunno. I can’t find— “Have you seen?” I don’t—no. No. I haven’t. I mean, it always makes me feel like maybe I have failed somehow in raising my children? ‘Cause I’m like, “Y’know, the house hasn’t changed in the ten years we’ve been living in it. It’s probably wherever it was the last time. And better yet, this isn’t like a scene out of Indiana Jones where if you go looking for the rubber bands, your life might be in danger. Just go look at drawers and stuff!” I can’t answer another question. It sends me right away to a place of pure rage. So that’s nice. And really in no way ties into what we’re going to talk about today. So I’m not [through laughter] even going to try and make it do so. Guys, we are going to be welcoming back Jessica Zucker this week to talk about her new book, I Had a Miscarriage: A Memoir, A Movement. So obviously if you feel that this week’s topic that we will be talking about with our guest is not something that you are ready to listen to, that is okay. You can go ahead and skip forward. The time to skip forward to will be in the show notes? So you can rejoin us with Theresa for genius and fails. You’re doing a good job.

music

Banjo strums; cheerful banjo music continues through dialogue.

theresa

Please—take a moment to remember: If you’re friends of the hosts of One Bad Mother, you should assume that when we talk about other moms, we’re talking about you.

biz

If you are married to the host of One Bad Mother, we definitely are talking about you.

theresa

Nothing we say constitutes professional parenting advice.

biz

Biz and Theresa’s children are brilliant, lovely, and exceedingly extraordinary.

theresa

Nothing said on this podcast about them implies otherwise. [Banjo music fades out.] [Biz and Jessica repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss the weekly topic.]

biz

This week, we welcome back Jessica Zucker, who’s a Los Angeles-based psychologist specializing in reproductive and maternal mental health. Jessica’s writing has been featured in The New York Times, the Washington Post, New York Magazine, The Guardian, NBC, Vogue, Harper’s Bazaar, Glamour, Marie Claire—among others! Dr. Zucker is the creator of the hashtag #IHadAMiscarriage campaign. Her first book, I Had a Miscarriage: A Memoir, A Movement is available starting March 9th and it’s being put out by Feminist Press and Penguin Random House Audio. You may also remember Jessica from such One Bad Mother episodes as One Bad Mother episode 116 and 126! And here we are back at 394! Welcome back, Jessica! [Laughs.] Woo!

jessica

Wow! Thank you! I’m so glad to be here!

biz

It is so nice to have you back. Because there’s just y’know, if you’re—that’s a joke that’s not funny. So I’m not gonna do it. Instead—

jessica

I wanna hear it! I’m gonna beg to hear it! Oh no.

biz

If there’s anyone I wanna talk about miscarriage with, it’s you. [Jessica laughs.]

jessica

I know. I know. When people say that miscarriage is my brand, I swear I wanna like fall over. It’s ridiculous. I know. I know! This is what I’m known for now! It’s really weird. Yeah.

biz

It’s kind of weird. But before we get in to the new book and what led to it, I want to ask you what we always ask and it’s fun to ask somebody we’ve asked before—who lives in your house now? [Laughs.]

jessica

Oh! I don’t remember this question!

biz

Yeah, we always ask this—

jessica

What do you mean? Who do I live with?

biz

Yeah! Who’s in there? Ghosts? People? Animals? Whatever!

jessica

I mean, ghosts would be fun, actually. Yeah. Right now we kinda need something to liven things up. [Laughs.] [Biz laughs.] I live with my husband and my twelve-year-old son and my seven-year-old daughter. And so many stuffed animals that they probably could count as like another person. Yeah.

biz

They do become sentient— [Jessica laughs.] —when they become more than thirty? When there’s like more than thirty they’re like—

jessica

She just had me buy her another one yesterday. I don’t know how I get talked into this. I think it’s like some guilt because of how much I’ve been pouring into the book that I’m like, “Sure. Let’s just get something that you’ll be excited about.”

biz

I have sworn off stuffed animals so many times— [Jessica laughs.] —only to immediately purchase another stuffed animal?

jessica

That’s the thing! Good mothering! Y’know! Not sticking to the limits! I know.

biz

That’s right. It’s good until I take them and throw them away. And crush their little hearts.

jessica

Awww! [Biz laughs.] Don’t do it!

biz

I’m not gonna do that! I’m not gonna do that. Well, see? That’s changed! Those are much older kids than the last time we talked!

crosstalk

Jessica: You know it. You know it. Biz: Twelve. That’s—

jessica

Whoa.

biz

Wow.

jessica

That’s a whole other podcast!

biz

Let’s just make noises and move on! [Laughs.]

jessica

He’s getting—he’s—yeah. I won’t even—yeah.

biz

I know! We can’t! It’s cute when they’re little and we talk about ‘em and then when they get older it’s like, “Oh, that’s weird. Shouldn’t do that.”

jessica

Definitely.

biz

Alright. Miscarriages. We have discussed them on the show. Theresa has shared her experience and you have joined us for many discussions and I think what we can safely say is that historically, miscarriages have been very taboo to talk about. Some people don’t even want to share that they’re pregnant—like there’s this whole concept of “I’m not even gonna tell somebody I’m pregnant until they’re past the three month mark”—and both of these things is part of the reason that miscarriages can make someone feel so alone, so isolated, so unsupported, and worse. You became involved in what I would call… [Laughs.] I don’t know. The miscarriage world? What would you—like, this mission to make it not be like this thing—

crosstalk

Biz: —that no one ever talks— Jessica: To change this—

jessica

This antiquated culture! Come on, people!

biz

I know! So this—but I was like—I guess in 2014 you wrote a piece for The New York Times. We had you on shortly after. So talk to us about—for anybody who isn’t familiar with your work—talk to us about where this began for you.

jessica

Sure. Okay. So going like a decade back—or more now, actually—so I’m a psychologist. I’ve specialized in women’s reproductive and maternal mental health for some time. And when I decided to go into this field it was really theoretically based. Like this is just a passion of mine. I have a background in public health. I worked internationally in women’s reproductive rights. And when I pursued my PhD I wanted to somehow marry all of my interests. And so that’s what I did here in my clinical practice. It was theoretical. Until it wasn’t.

biz

Theoretical? [Laughs.]

jessica

Yeah! Like it was just—I had read every book. I knew the statistics. I heard things. But nothing—none of the issues had touched my physical body. I mean, I’m a woman in the world so I understood, y’know, body image-related issues and the objectification of women, things like that. But I had not gone through something that my patients were talking so much about. So my first pregnancy—you probably remember this—but my first pregnancy was totally smooth and uneventful and so—it’s not to say that in any way I thought I was immune to a loss. But I think it did make my loss all the more confusing and confounding. When sixteen weeks into my second pregnancy, the baby emerged while I was home by myself.

crosstalk

Biz: Which is—I just wanna stop. Jessica: So—ridiculous. Yeah.

biz

Because—I just—again, because… there is a history of not talking about the experience, it’s very easy to have a narrative of what a miscarriage is? And that narrative—until you have a miscarriage—can be like, “There’s only one way.” Right? “There’s one experience.” And that’s not true! That’s—

jessica

No, that’s right. I mean, it’s—what’s true, statistically-speaking, y’know, research-driven, is okay. A majority of miscarriages do typically take place within the first trimester. So about 80%. SO that it before the twelve week mark. So this whole concept that you mentioned earlier about being out of the woods after being twelve weeks, when you, y’know, have a loss after that, it’s that much more surprising. And then the way mine happened sort of in the context of my home, more typical—I mean, in my office, in my work, I had not heard a story like this. More often than not, people either start to spot and so the bleeding kind of gives them an indication that things aren’t necessarily going well, or they go in for a routine checkup and there’s no heartbeat. So—[sighs.] Yeah. I mean, I had to return to work and essentially tell my patients—who were here to talk to me about these very issues—that I had just gone through this very thing.

biz

Yeah. With no time to process for your—because again, as with most things maternal, there is no time for processing. Because, y’know, “Oh, you had a baby? Keep going! Get up! Go!”

jessica

“Get your body back!”

biz

“Get your body—” whatever the fuck that means. But I mean, like—

jessica

I know. I hate that.

biz

Literally, the expectation of—

jessica

Get up and go.

biz

Birth injury related—y’know, injuries related to birth? That’s just what to expect. Right? Like, and with miscarriage—which is a real true loss—to like this assumption that women are just supposed to be like, “Alright!” [Laughs.]

jessica

Yeah. “Back to the office!”

biz

“Back to the office!” Right? Like—

jessica

I know! But like, meanwhile my milk came in.

biz

Oh god! [Laughs.]

jessica

I was bleeding for weeks? My hormones were as if I had just had a baby ‘cause I kind of did. And… yeah. It was—the most wild ride. I mean, I’ve never… I just… I still—I mean, the truth is, I just recently narrated my book. And even reading my book allowed and really kind of having to connect with… that time period. And the details. Was shocking. Again! Again and again and again and again. Right? It just like—and I’m not—it’s not to say—I mean, this was already eight years ago. So I don’t—it’s not like I think about my loss on a daily basis. I mean I think about loss on a daily basis in general because this is what my work is, but these things live with us! They live inside of us. They happen within our bodies. And there’s just no way to unknow trauma sometimes. Y’know?

biz

Again, I don’t think—historically—we’ve considered it trauma? We’ve considered it—and I mean “we” like society. Like, it’s a woman’s—it’s a woman’s thing. And apparently we don’t have trauma? [Jessica laughs.] And so I would imagine the process—because what happened was you decided you were going to be a voice for others. And long before the book, you were still reliving this moment. Publicly.

jessica

That’s true. That’s true.

biz

Y’know? And that is… y’know, as a… trauma survivor myself, it can be a—pick, pick—pick, pick, pick, pick, pick! And that can come out in all kind of horrible, weird, surprising ways? But it was also a real gift to others. So… sorry. Thank you for doing that. [Laughs.]

jessica

Yeah. No, I know! I mean, it’s a good point! I mean there is this kind of way in which, y’know, deciding to kind of use my story and my self to convey certain messages and to kind of beg women around the world to question the antiquated silence. To, y’know, “can we collectively change the zeitgeist once and for all to include miscarriage as a normative outcome of pregnancy?” Like, it was worth it! I was like, I will use myself and my story because I want so badly in my lifetime or for the next generation—my children, your children, everybody—to no longer have this be a conversation that exists on the outskirts. It’s enough! Enough with this!

biz

Yeah. No. It’s one of a million things we’re not supposed to talk about, especially when it comes to our body. I would like to talk about the book because I think there is—and you just said this. There is something about the experience of having to revisit work that you’ve been doing. I mean, look. You did the hashtag. You did the greeting cards. Right? And greeting cards is definitely the wrong word but I— [Laughs.] I don’t know what—

jessica

No, that’s—I mean, they’re cards for loss! Yeah!

biz

Yeah! They’re cards for loss specifically geared towards miscarriage, which I just loved because—

jessica

Thank you.

biz

—talk about things we don’t know what to say, when to say it, how to say it, and we’re all—as human beings—pretty great at sticking out foot right in it all the time. [Laughs.]

jessica

Yes. You know it. That’s right. So these do it for you, y’know? They say the right thing! Yeah.

biz

Especially when it comes to women’s bodies. [Laughs.] I got a whole book of things not to say. But—

jessica

Surely. Yeah.

biz

Right? But I—was there even really a break between that work and the memoir, or did it just go kind of fold very naturally into it and then suddenly you’re like, “Oh my god, this is what I’ve been doing the last—” [Laughs.]

jessica

I know! It’s like—what?! I know. I—yeah. I wonder how long I’ll be in this space. [Biz laughs.]

biz

Well can you—does it keep you in that space? I have to ask you that, too. Does it keep you in that space and is there any desire to move past that space? So…

crosstalk

Biz: That’s two totally different questions. You’re welcome. [Laughs.] Jessica: Right. That’s a totally interesting—yeah. Yeah.

jessica

Well so I’ll go back and just say after my loss, which included—like I said—y’know, the baby emerging while I was home by myself. I had to cut the umbilical cord myself. I began to hemorrhage. My husband got home. I needed to take the baby in a bag to my doctor’s office. And then I had to have an unmedicated D&C. So like again, it’s—the trauma was ongoing.

biz

So much trauma.

jessica

It was just ongoing. Right? And then I didn’t stop bleeding for a long time. I mean, it just was… so… my OB/GYN, who’s a dear friend who I credit with sort of saving my life in that situation because she was so available to me by phone right away, she suggested that we wait three cycles if we wanted to try again. And because of our ages and stages in life, it kind of felt like, “It’s now or never.” Even though I could’ve used years to grieve and to kind of give my body a break and my mind especially. But on the fourth cycle, I got pregnant. Suffice it to say that this subsequent pregnancy was… I mean, there are no words to capture the level of anxiety I lived with for those months. None! I mean, every day, every hour, when I went to the bathroom, checking for blood. Checking for blood. Y’know, just endless. Okay. So my point in sharing that part is not only because I think that we have to change the conversation around miscarriage because of how many women go through it, but then also how many women go on to get pregnant again and the fear that they often live with. That’s very important. But also to say that, y’know, you’re saying this has become my life’s work. Well I didn’t really dig into this until I was officially on the other side of pregnancy. So my daughter was born. My healthy daughter. I took some deep breaths. There was still trauma left in there and, y’know, that’s in the book. But that’s when I felt like, “Alright. I wanna be part of massive change in our society.” And so that—I’ve been writing ever since. So to your question about, y’know, did I pause—no, I’ve kind of been steamrolling ahead ever since. Because I like to take on the nitty-gritty topics that we don’t talk enough about within the life after loss. So like, what about returning to sex after loss? Can grief and pleasure coexist? Y’know, I wrote a piece about masturbation after loss and interviewed fourteen women about sort of, what was it like to return to that site? To like, y’know, allow yourself to have pleasure or not following a pregnancy loss. All of these kinds of things. So this eventually led to the book because it was sort of like, y’know what? I’ve written loads of pieces. I should probably put this all together in one place. And—

biz

God. We could derail a hundred ways on this. Because I mean, I think there’s so much just right there for women who have suffered pregnancy loss as well as having successful pregnancies. Both of those things, for many of us, play into a separation from our own bodies.

jessica

Right.

biz

Right? Like, we become other. Mother. [Sarcastically] A life creator. [Regular voice] Or your body becomes a place where you have suffered loss! And both things mean it’s easy to get very disconnected and see our bodies all kinds of twisted ways. And then to imagine coming back to our bodies is—but again, who cares?

jessica

“You’re just a woman! Who cares?”

crosstalk

Biz: “You’re just a woman! Who cares!” Yeah, “Aren’t you happy to have what you’ve got?” [Laughs.] I know. Blah, blah, blah. Jessica: “You’re just a mother. You’re just creating the next generation but you go back to your—"

biz

But I mean, every… everything I think that like—the biggies that women might find themselves in your, y’know, care for—are all things that we are told not to talk about. Miscarriage. Sex. Rape. Assault. Masturbation. Post—

jessica

Post-partum depression. Body image. Eating disorders.

biz

All of it. But shush, shush, shush, shush, shush, shush, shush. Keep it a secret!

jessica

Right! You’re supposed to be so—y’know, you’re supposed to be glowing. And loving motherhood.

biz

Yeah. Or, “Gross. I don’t wanna hear that. You’re gonna make me feel bad.” But I— [Laughs.] But I think that’s part of it, actually! I think there’s a guilt of not wanting to share good or bad news when it comes to pregnancy. Because… [sighs.] Again, it goes back to that sticking your foot in it.

jessica

Yes.

biz

And it’s hard to know how to support somebody who has gone through a loss. Especially—

jessica

But that’s—why? Why?

crosstalk

Jessica: Why is it [inaudible]? Biz: Because we’re not supposed to talk about it! That’s why!

crosstalk

Jessica: Okay. But who made these rules and are we allowed to end them? Biz: Men. Just kidding. [Laughs.]

jessica

I know! I mean, this is age-old patriarchal bullshit that we don’t [inaudible].

biz

Well I think, for me, if I was gonna say—let’s say you’re asking me that question and you probably are. I would say that, y’know… through some sort of twisted sense of doing the right thing—or wanting to do the right thing—I would hate to bring up or trigger dramatic responses to your loss by talking about a successful pregnancy.

jessica

Oh. Well that’s different. Yes.

biz

And I think that because women tend to be the ones who are talking to each other during pregnancies or while trying to get pregnant, that is really layered with lots of things to try and navigate. Now we as a society—yes! We should be out supporting each other. There should be no three-month rule. I remember Theresa and I had our conversation and saying, “Y’know, it’s up to everybody what they wanna do, but if you’re—” I don’t know. I wanted to tell people right away? Because if something happened? I wanted support right away.

jessica

The three-month rule is completely counterproductive and actually destructive. Because what it says is, “Look. You might lose this pregnancy because the majority of losses happen within the first trimester. So why don’t you just wait to share your good news until you’re quote-unquote ‘out of the woods.’”

biz

Until we know it’s good news!

jessica

Right! “So that if you do lose this pregnancy, you don’t have to tell anybody.” That is completely twisted and unfair. That is robbing people of the support they might need if they do lose the pregnancy and actually, it’s robbing you of the joy and the excitement or the elation or whatever feelings—or ambivalence. Let’s say you’re feeling ambivalent about the pregnancy. Why shouldn’t we be able to talk about it? It’s all in an effort to stave off conversations around grief. Around death. Around loss. And I think we’ve got to turn this over. Like, we have to figure this out.

biz

Okay. Well let’s venture into this a little. Part of that venturing-in takes me back to the question that we didn’t get to answer, which was—you’ve written this book. You’ve—jokey—I mean, y’know, snarky aside—“The face of miscarriage!” Congratulations! Is that something that—a role you still wanna be a part of the way that you have been a part of it? Y’know? I mean—

crosstalk

Jessica: No, I love that question! Thank you! Yes. Biz: I would hope that people had picked up the flags next to you.

jessica

No, but I love this question and I think it’s such an important one in my career trajectory and also my personal life. It’s sort of like, at what stage, age, like, at what point would I potentially pivot or focus on something broader? Now, what’s funny is—yeah. I’ve become, I guess, what you just said—“The face of miscarriage.” [Biz laughs.] And yet, y’know, I’ve always been writing about and working with women who are struggling with perinatal and postpartum mood and anxiety disorders. So it’s not like all I do is loss. [Biz laughs.] But that is what people think. But I’m already fiddling with my next book idea. And the next book will be broader. It will include more aspects of the reproductive life cycle. I won’t say more. I’ll make people buy the first book and wait for the second book.

biz

Don’t you tease us! Let’s get the first one going! That’s right!

jessica

But I mean—no. I think… for example—and this is probably even less sexy than miscarriage—

biz

Oh, really? [Laughs.]

jessica

That we don’t talk about—we don’t talk about perimenopause.

biz

No, we do not! Hello! We don’t!

crosstalk

Jessica: Let’s go! Night sweats! Woo! Oh my god. Y’know. And then menopause! Biz: We’re gonna have to come up with a special perimenopause handshake! [Laughs.] Would you like your period now, or would you like your period later?

biz

Would you like it—do you want it come at the time it always comes? [Jessica laughs.] Do you wanna just wait two months and be like, “Well, I know I’m not pregnant.” And then be like, “Oh wait, nope! There it—op. No, there is it. That’s a weird time to get that. I am pissed!”

jessica

I mean, my daughter, y’know, will wake me up in the morning and she’ll say—she’ll ask me if I already went and worked out. Because— [Biz laughs.] —she sees me in this pile of sweat. Or this like, y’know. [Biz laughs.] And I’m like, “No, honey. This is just what’s coming with the age. Yeah.”

biz

The magic of my body.

jessica

Yeah. Exactly. So—but I think that I love the idea of talking more about that? And integrating that more into society so that women are prepared for what happens then? And I think that we’re so focused on when women are sexy and we don’t even wanna talk about periods. We just wanna objectify them. Y’know. While they’re quote-unquote “young.” So I think I will… I hope that I’m focused on loss forever. Because that’s not going anywhere. But I do think I’ll kind of expand my view.

biz

Yeah. Actually, I’m gonna poke you a little bit more and that is—that is a delightful way to say that you will write about something different. But! We spoke about, y’know, the fact that speaking out about loss and trauma, when you yourself have suffered loss and trauma, it can sometimes act as a healer to that trauma? When we embrace it? But also— [Laughs.] As I have learned, it can still linger in there and you’ve gotta—like, talking about it, writing about it, I mean, it’s still making you live it in some way. And so I guess my question is—do you—being “the face of miscarriage”—it comes at a cost to you on some level.

jessica

Mmm.

biz

And so—I mean, even—

jessica

Oh, that’s interesting.

biz

Even if it’s important work and it is, I just… it’s our third time back. We’re like BFFs now. So come on.

jessica

Totally. No actually—so what I’ve found after my loss was that through my writing, I connected with this global community of women who understood too well this ache and this pain. And so writing has—I sort of don’t use the word “heal” or “healing” too much? But yes. This—I feel like therapy and connecting with other people and through my writing has actually been a salve that I nee3ded. Like, the very thing that helped me kind of get on a life raft. So yes. I mean, talking about the explicit details of my gory story? Is very intense. But it’s not—I don’t feel… bogged down. I don’t feel retraumatized. I don’t feel like it’s too alive for me on a daily basis. If anything, it’s like—what I can offer my patients now is so… I don’t know. I mean, it’s so much more kind of comprehensive and it’s not just this expert from a distance, objective, whatever. It’s like, “I get it.” They tell me about the terror that they feel in the subsequent pregnancy and I’m like, “Oh, I get it.” Now I don’t always say that to people, but if it’s helpful to them and if they know about my loss history then like it is helpful to them. Y’know?

biz

Well, it’s about being seen. And you wanna have somebody be able to tell you that they see you. So I feel like you may have gained, like, an insight. I think when people write about the work they’ve been doing? [Laughs.] There’s a reflection? And given the book, given reading it out loud, writing it, all of these things—have you seen any change in how we speak about miscarriage in our country, worldwide? Have you seen people—I remember one of our conversations early on was just the support networks. Y’know. Not when we’re in a pandemic, but like, y’know, OB/GYNs and doctors’ offices and clinics offering additional support and that not being there lots of times. So where do you see us? Now?

jessica

[Sighs.] It’s a great question and a hard one!

crosstalk

Biz: Shitshow? You’re like—[inaudible] it’s just like, [blows raspberry.] [Laughs.] Jessica: It’s—well it’s a hard one for me—it’s a hard one for me to answer.

jessica

Only because I’m so in it. Right? And so I think though from the outside… people do feel that we are making strides. And I would say primarily based on… people who are in the spotlight, in the limelight, y’know, political figures, celebrities, coming out and saying, “This is what happened to me. Here I am. I’m sharing the truth of my life.” And I think it’s inspired a lot of people to do the same. So look. I think we have a long way to go? [Biz laughs.] In terms of truly integrating the conversation to truly making it a known fact. I mean, I think what we could do is starting with integrating the conversation around this in sex education programs, for example. So that kids understand not just how to not get pregnant—because that’s the only focus of sex education, really— [Biz laughs.] —but that, y’know, one in seven couples or people have fertility struggles. Or that not all fetuses result in a live baby. Whatever. Not as a way to scare people, but just as a way—again—to let it be known that this is a natural part of life. Y’know? Yeah. I think… we’re getting there. We’re moving in a good direction.

biz

I hope so.

jessica

Me, too!

biz

And until then, let’s just keep publicly speaking about uncomfortable things.

jessica

That’s right. Yes. I will. [Biz laughs.]

crosstalk

Biz: Me, too! I’m great—perimenopause, here we come! [Laughs.] Jessica: Perimenopause. That’s next. [Laughs.]

biz

We’ll have you back for that!

jessica

Oh, god, that’ll be great.

biz

So, Dr. Zucker—Jessica—thank you for all of your work. I know it can be hard to step into that role of sharing your trauma and it is… empowering and invaluable. To all of us. And I hope to you. And thank you for that work. Thank you for those cards! Guys? Don’t forget— [Jessica laughs.] —you can get loss greeting cards, which are just fucking genius!

crosstalk

Biz: And thank you for this book! Jessica: Oh my god. You’re amazing.

biz

Actually, though, here’s a question—who is this book—this book is for everyone, but like, people get very scared if they—y’know, like when they see “miscarriage” on the book. So can you just assure me who this book is for? [Laughs.]

jessica

Sure! It is for anyone you know who has had a miscarriage. Anybody you know who has of course also had, y’know, stillbirth, terminated for medical reasons, had an infant loss even, SIDS, y’know, the whole spectrum of pregnancy and infant loss is included in this book. The book is not just about me. It’s part memoir, part manifesto. So I do bring in loads of other women’s stories. So y’know, I think that most people will see themselves represented in the book. Which was my hope. Whether it’s the exact experience or not, y’know, probably I didn’t cover everything but I think people will definitely be able to feel a lot of the feelings that are expressed within the book. It is, of course, also for partners. It’s also for people who love somebody who’s gone through this, so friends, grandparents, everyone. Y’know, I tried to be as vulnerable as possible about sort of the effects of my loss on my marriage and y’know difficulties that I had even in friendships afterward. So I’m trying really hard in the book to highlight so many different things I’ve heard over the years about the self-blame and the guilt and this feeling of body failure.

biz

There’s something for everybody!

jessica

It’s for everyone except if you’re like in a healthy pregnancy and you’ve never had a loss. [Biz laughs.] You probably don’t need to read the book. Not right now.

biz

Well I like to just—y’know—yeah. Everybody here knows what my suggestion would be, and that would be to buy this book and then just lay it on your coffee table and when people can come over, like, have it just be in the room! That is a good time!

jessica

Exactly! Don’t even read it! Just buy it!

biz

Oh no! Don’t even read it! Just buy it and stack it up! Just stack ‘em up. Well you know my rule—and it goes for children’s books and grown-up books, too. Buy three copies. One for you. One for your library. And one—

jessica

Oh, I love it!

biz

—for your school. This one, maybe not school? [Jessica laughs.] But maybe college? Maybe a college campus school?

jessica

Yes! I want it to be in libraries across the country. That would be amazing. Yes.

biz

I agree! Well, we love our librarians. Jessica, thank you so much for joining us. We’ll make sure that we link everybody up to where they can get that book.

jessica

Perfect.

biz

And thank you so much.

jessica

Thank you so much for having me!

biz

Bye.

music

“Ones and Zeroes” by “Awesome.” Steady, driving electric guitar with drum and woodwinds. [Music fades out.]

music

Cheerful ukulele with whistling plays in background.

theresa

One Bad Mother is supported in part by Grove. Grove Collaborative delivers healthy home, beauty, and personal care products directly to you.

biz

I am a person who wants to use natural products. [Laughs.] But do you know why that was very hard? It was very hard because every time I went looking for, y’know, all-natural dish detergent or body wash or laundry detergent or biodegradable food storage, I would wind up going down a million rabbit holes, many of which made me feel bad. [Laughs.] While I’m trying to make changes in my life! Duh-duh-duh-daaa! Grove Collaborative.

theresa

So making the switch to natural products has never been easier. For a limited time, when One Bad Mother listeners go to Grove.Co/badmother, you will get to choose a free gift with your first order of $30 or more. But you have to use that special code.

biz

Go to Grove.Co/badmother to get your exclusive offer!

theresa

That’s Grove.Co/badmother. [Music fades out.]

theresa

Hey, you know what it’s time for! This week’s genius and fails! This is the part of the show where we share our genius moment of the week, as well as our failures, and feel better about ourselves by hearing yours. You can share some of your own by calling 206-350-9485. That’s 206-350-9485.

biz

Genius fail time, Theresa. Genius me!

clip

[Dramatic, swelling music in background.] Biz: Wow! Oh my God! Oh my God! I saw what you did! Oh my God! I’m paying attention! Wow! You, mom, are a genius. Oh my God, that’s fucking genius! [Biz and Theresa repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss their respective genius moments of the week.]

crosstalk

Biz: Hello? Hello? And genius me! Theresa: Okay. Hi. Hello.

theresa

I will do that. So. This is a “letting go” genius. I was doing something—can’t remember what. I was busy. I was trying to get stuff done around the house. [Biz laughs.] Grace and Oscar were like in the doorway like throwing things from the porch. That were landing in bushes below. And I was like, “What are you guys doing? Can you please stop?” Stuff was like catching in bushes and hanging there and they were trying to get something—one of Gracie’s little toys that was like hanging in the top of a tree from down below. And so to get the thing that was in the tree they were just throwing more things into the tree. [Biz laughs.] And that wasn’t working! Believe it or not. And I had that thing where I was like, there was this part of me that was like, “Well I’m just gonna go get all the shit, bring it inside, and shut the door and lock it. ‘Cause I just don’t wanna deal with this.” But I didn’t do that, because I was like—I mean—

biz

They’re busy. [Laughs.]

theresa

They’re doing—like, I don’t—who cares? So I just said, “Okay. I don’t wanna bunch of stuff—like, more stuff in the trees. So one suggestion is stand down there with the broom. But no more throwing stuff into the trees.” And they were like, “Yeah. Okay. Okay, cool.” And I said, “And I can go get your toy for you. Do you want that or do you wanna keep working at it?” And Grace said, “I wanna keep working at it.” And I was like, “Great.” And I just walked away. And you know what? It worked out great.

biz

Good!

theresa

They ultimately got the thing out of the tree.

biz

And then you had a day off. [Laughs.]

theresa

I sure did! Put my feet up!

biz

Just put my feet up—you are doing a remarkable job. That is genius.

theresa

Thank you.

biz

My genius is… I don’t know, guys? I’m tired. [Laughs.] There’s nothing spectacular about this week. I will say I’m feeling pretty good about supporting Kat during some hard stuff. We had—last week we know was hard. Some friendship stuff. This week was followed up with more friendship issues? And it was—it was just a lot. And y’know, it’s not the worst that’s gonna happen. [Laughs.] It just—it’s just her first taste of the heartbreak. Right? And y’know, I just… I’m happy that they’re still willing to talk to me about it?

theresa

Yeah, that’s huge!

biz

And I feel like I gotta be doing something right since that still happens? So yeah. I think I’m doing a good job as a parent.

crosstalk

Biz: So that’s my genius. Thank you. Theresa: Yeah. You are. That’s so good.

theresa

Oh my gosh. That is so good. Good job, Biz.

biz

Thank you.

caller

[Answering machine beeps.] Hi. I’m calling with a genius. I remembered that Biz had installed her own garbage disposal? I think? Or maybe it was a faucet? Anyway, our garbage disposal broke. We got a new one. And I fucking installed it. And it works! Thanks. Bye.

biz

That is how you’re supposed to say it, too. You’re supposed to say it as, “I fucking installed it.”

crosstalk

Theresa: Yeah! You fucking installed it! Biz: No one says, “I installed a garbage disposal.”

biz

You say, “I fucking installed it. P.S., it works.” And I know that this— [Laughs.] That guys? So many of you are doing so many great geniuses out there, but I do love a good “I fucking installed it” genius, because who are you going to tell? You’re doing so great! Enjoy grinding that stuff up! [Laughs.]

theresa

You shove that soggy food down there!

biz

That’s right! Goodbye, waste! [Makes grinding noise.] [Laughs.] Failures.

clip

[Dramatic orchestral music plays in the background.] Theresa: [In a voice akin to the Wicked Witch of the West] Fail. Fail. Fail. FAIL! [Timpani with foot pedal engaged for humorous effect.] Biz: [Calmly] You suck! [Biz and Theresa repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss their respective failures of the week.]

biz

Fail me, Theresa.

theresa

Okay. This is kind of like weirdly like the opposite of my genius, I guess. [Biz laughs.] So I was—this is like me not realizing how capable my nine-year-old is. So I—I’ve talked about in the past on the show—people may remember—that my wonderful daughter, Gracie, gets hot cocoa every morning. It is a tradition that started when she was in kindergarten and has continued to this day. Whatever. That’s not the fail. But the fail is—yesterday I was handing it to her. I—there have been times where she makes it herself, but typically in the morning I’m like the morning beverage person. So I handed it to her and she’s like, “You were drinking it!” And I was like, “Well I was just testing it.” She’s like, “Ugh! Is this your slobber?” I was like, “I mean—are you mad that I drank some of it, or are you mad that we shared the cup?” And she’s like, “All of it! All of it!” And I was like, “Oh.” And I thought to myself and I realized, like, “I’m tasting it like she’s four. And she can’t—” Like, I’m making sure it’s not gonna burn her or not be warm enough for my little—

biz

Baby!

theresa

—for my little kindergartener! Not this like full-blown kid who’s gonna be ten in a few months! Like, she’ll be fine. She can either put it in the microwave for a few more seconds or blow on it. Like— [Biz laughs.] —I don’t need to be like taste-testing—ugh! That’s all.

crosstalk

Biz: Yeah. Well, I’m— Theresa: Gone on way too long!

biz

—really glad that Grace properly let you know— [Theresa laughs.] —how horrible a job you’re doing. “Did you spit in this?” Oh yeah. That’s one of those like muscle memory things? Y’know?

crosstalk

Theresa: Totally. Yes. Yes! It’s just part of how I—yeah. Biz: Yeah. Anyway. I’m—yep!

biz

Enjoy doing that forever! [Laughs.]

theresa

Right. [Laughs.]

biz

Doing a horrible job.

theresa

Thanks.

biz

Alright. We’ve been in remote learning here for… let’s just round it up to a year. I mean, we—it’s pretty close. Right? We’re like—

theresa

It’s a year minus two weeks or something. Yeah.

biz

This year they’ve been in the remote learning from day one of school. They start school the same time every day.

theresa

Yeah.

biz

They have, this past week, introduced some rotating outside small cohort if you’re comfortable learning. This is great. I for sure got Kat to school at the wrong time for the outdoor two hours. Therefore losing thirty minutes. Because I have two children on two different schedules and those schedules are not the exact same. So like, 9:15? Or 9:30? Right? Like so I just assumed they were all the same. The day that I sent Kat to school with Stefan, they were very late. And at home I just hung out with Ellis and like at 9:30 was like, “Let’s get on it! It’s time for school!” And we log on and they’re like, “Welcome to Spanish!” And I’m like, “Wow, we’re late. School starts not at 9:30.” And then I was in the worst mood the rest of the day. Just—

theresa

Thrown. Thrown. Yeah.

biz

I was nasty the rest of the day! I wanted none of it! Yeah, y’know? And it was like—by the way, this was like Tuesday. It wasn’t like Monday. We’d already established timing the day before. So…

crosstalk

Theresa: Yeah. Yeah. Ugh. Biz: Wow. Whatever!

theresa

You suck but yeah!

biz

I do! It’s bad!

theresa

It’s just—ugh.

biz

It’s such a fucking mess. [Laughs.] In my brain. [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.]

caller

[Answering machine beeps.] Hi, One Bad Mother! This is a fail. I literally lost my sack of bananas. We got grocery delivery yesterday and I went to make my toddler breakfast this morning and I couldn’t find the bananas! And I thought, “Maybe I forgot. Maybe they’re out of stock.” Check the order—sure enough, they said they delivered eight bananas. They were weighed. We paid for them. And now I don’t remember putting them away but maybe I did because we get eight bananas every week and maybe it was last week and what is time? [Biz and Theresa laugh.] Anyway, I cannot find my bananas. They might be in the house somewhere. I’ll probably find them when they start stinking really bad and smell like rotten bananas. So yeah. I’m doing a horrible job. You guys are doing amazing. I love the show. Take care.

biz

What a wonderful way to wrap up, y’know, this—this time of everything. Y’know? Like… “I’ve lost my sack of bananas.” And here’s the thing—do bananas get a bad smell? ‘Cause usually they get nasty and they just sort of… sink into wherever they are.

crosstalk

Biz: Right? Like, you’re gonna find— Theresa: They don’t really—

theresa

They get more warm and fragrant. But they’re not gonna stink like… like you’ll be able to find them based on their stink.

biz

You’ll find them when they’ve become something so peculiar— [Theresa laughs.] —that you’re like, “What was this? What was this? How did it get here?” [Theresa laughs.] Well I can’t wait to say this—good luck finding your sack of bananas! [Both laugh.] You’re doing a horrible job! And thank you for encapsulating everything that is One Bad Mother in a failure call! Keep that up.

music

“Mom Song” by Adira Amram. Mellow piano music with lyrics. You are the greatest mom I’ve ever known. I love you, I love you. When I have a problem, I call you on the phone. I love you, I love you. [Music fades out.]

music

Inspirational piano music plays in background.

biz

One Bad Mother is supported in part by Third Love. Third Love uses the measurements of millions of women to design bras with all-day comfort and support in over eighty sizes.

theresa

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biz

Third Love knows your “one true fit” is out there, so right now they’re offering One Bad Mother listeners 20% off your first order.

theresa

Go to ThirdLove.com/mother now to find your perfect-fitting bra, and get 20% off your first purchase.

biz

That’s ThirdLove.com/mother for 20% off today.

promo

[Audio crackles as though playing over a midcentury radio.] Ben Harrison: [In old-fashioned announcer voice] Maximum Fun is a network by and for cool, popular people, but did you know it also has an offering designed to appeal to nerds? Adam Pranica: A show for nerds? On Maximum Fun? The devil, you say! [Sound of an engine revving.] Ben: It’s true! It’s called The Greatest Generation, and they review episodes of a television program for nerds! Called Star Trek. They reviewed TNG, DS9, and are now reviewing Voyager. Adam: Hey, Star Trek! My daughter enjoys that program! Ben: Well if she enjoys that and she enjoys humor of the flatulent variety, might I recommend she subscribe to The Greatest Generation? Adam: Hey, are you calling my kid a nerd? Why, I oughta— Ben: Welp, gotta go! [Sound of feet running away Ben fades out as he speaks, as though he is getting progressively further from the microphone.] Ben: Become a friend of DeSoto by subscribing to The Greatest Generation on MaximumFun.org today!

promo

Music: Intense sci-fi music. Narrator: You never know who you'll run into in Fairhaven, the city under the bubble. Alison Becker: Alison Becker. Eliza Skinner: Eliza Skinner. Keith Powell: Keith Powell. Narrator: Mucus-drenched imp monsters... Rob Corddry: Rob Corddry! Cristela Alonzo: Cristela Alonzo! Judy Greer: Judy Greer! Narrator: Grotesquely possessive carnivorous plants… Justin McElroy: Justin McElroy. Travis McElroy: Travis McElroy. Griffin McElroy: Griffin McElroy. Narrator: Terrifying, malevolent, sentient beards. John Hodgman: John Hodgman! Paul F. Tompkins: Paul F. Tompkins! Lisa Loeb: Lisa Loeb. Narrator: Bubble: The sci-fi comedy from MaximumFun.org. Just open your podcast app and search for Bubble. [Music finishes.]

biz

Theresa? As always, I’m so glad to have you here. ‘Cause there’s nothing I enjoy more thank listening to a mom have a breakdown with you.

caller

[Answering machine beeps.] Hi Biz and Theresa. This is a sad pandemic rant. My grandmother died of COVID last week. And the funeral was this week. My husband has been working 60-hour weeks. He didn’t get home until one o’clock in the morning last week at least once and again this week and I’m 31-1/2 weeks pregnant and the nursery is not ready. Like, plywood flooring. And my husband is doing a really good job. I’m really proud of him. Compliment your partner. He’s trying to hard to get everything settled at his job so he can [through laughter] hopefully actually be here when the baby’s born, but it’s just so hard! I’m so tired! And I don’t know how long I can keep doing this. [Tearfully.] Thanks for listening. Bye.

biz

First off, you’re doing a really good job.

theresa

Yeah, you are.

biz

The question of, “How long can I keep doing this?” Is a really valid question.

theresa

Yeah.

biz

Because— [Laughs.] It feels impossible. Guys? I’m about to say something I say almost every week. Any one of the things that you are talking about? Whether it being 31 weeks pregnant or the death of your grandmother or your partner working 60 hours a week—all three of those things are a lot. They are emotionally draining. And then—I don’t care if it’s been almost a year. The pandemic is still a horrible existence to be living in. I’m gonna say it again! We do not give enough credit to the physical effects of emotional trauma. Okay? Like— [Laughs.] I mean, we just don’t!

theresa

Yep. Or just the real physical fear that many people feel during a pandemic. There’s—there’s a level of physical fear that we’re all experiencing.

biz

Yeah! And then there’s the physical exhaustion that comes from loss? That comes from the unexpected with a baby on the way? I mean, these are all having an effect on you and of course you’re fucking tired. [Laughs.] It would be really weird if you called and was like, “Hey! Here are all the things, but you know what? I feel really great. I really feel like I can just keep going and—"

theresa

“I think it’s gonna be good!”

biz

“Think it’s gonna be—I’m all good, everybody!” Not! It’s not! Look. There’s not one thing that you can do or we can say or really anyone can say or do that can reset—like, get us back to like… a place of feeling strong and ready to keep going. [Laughs.]

theresa

There is no going back!

crosstalk

Biz: There’s no going back! No! Right! Theresa: There’s no going back. Yeah.

biz

And I think that can be confused with not recognizing how remarkable and strong you are? For getting to today. I mean, we joke about, “Let’s get up. Do it. Go to bed. Get up.”

crosstalk

Biz and Theresa: “Do it again.”

biz

Just that “Do it again.” [Theresa laughs.] But within that is strength? Within that is—

theresa

So much strength.

biz

So much strength.

theresa

And stamina.

biz

Yeah! We see you? You’re not alone. You are doing such a remarkable job? And will do such a remarkable job when you welcome that baby into your life! So I just—you’re amazing. You’re amazing and you’re strong and you’re doing it.

theresa

Yeah! You’re so doing this.

biz

Yeah. You are doing it. Theresa? You’re doing it. I mean, you’re doing it six ways ‘til Sunday. Is that a thing?

theresa

That’s me! [Laughs.]

biz

Honk if you like to do it! [Laughs.] Didn’t we have a bumper sticker a while back that was like, “Honk if you did it.” That’s what it was?

theresa

I think it was “Honk if you’re doing it.”

biz

“Honk—” [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.] Why did we not ever make those?

crosstalk

Theresa: We did make them! I think they’re still in the MaxFun Store! Biz: Those would’ve been like—did we?! [Laughs.]

biz

We are so smart!

theresa

They’re so good.

biz

They are so good. I gotta get me one of those. Make those into some t-shirts. Well, honk, honk! You’re doing it! [Both laugh.]

theresa

Thanks, Biz. So are you.

biz

Thank you. I look forward to the honks. I’m waiting.

theresa

Honk, honk!

crosstalk

Biz: Oh, thank you! Thank you. Theresa: Honkity-honk-honk-honk.

biz

Honkity-honk-honk. Honk.

theresa

Toot-toot!

biz

Theresa? Thank you for joining me and I will talk to you next week!

theresa

I will talk to you next week.

crosstalk

Biz and Theresa: Bye!

biz

Everybody, what did we learn today? I’m not sure this is one of those like, “Wooo! I’m so glad we learned that today!” sort of episodes. But in keeping to what we try to do here on One Bad Mother, we’ve all learned—probably not for the first time—that miscarriage is a real thing? That many, many, many women experience? And it affects those women. It affects the people who love them in their lives. It is a real loss and trauma and there is—there are a lot of questions we don’t ask or consider past just knowing the fact that a miscarriage has happened. And I love talking with Jessica because Jessica always reminds me how much more there is to ask and to be mindful of and to remember, and I am very thankful that she wrote this book. Again, just like all things that are hard, you trust yourself when it comes to whether or not this is something you’re ready to dive into? When you are, know that it is there? She is very… careful and caring. About this topic. So keep that in mind as you consider getting it. Either way, I would encourage you to buy it just to support somebody who’s doing some great work out there. We’ve also learned that loss is all around us. From our rant caller. And loss at the same time as, y’know, gifts and birth. And I—it’s so confusing. And it’s so confusing to think that we’re supposed to only be feeling one of those things at the time. Like only be thinking about the loss versus thinking about the joy. ‘Cause if I think about the joy, well then obviously I didn’t really care about the loss. Right? Or if I care about the loss I don’t really appreciate the joy. Right? Like this is—ahhh! You get to— [Laughs.] Yay! You get both! Loss and joy. Isn’t that great? But actually it is, and every day—even when you feel like you really cannot do one more thing or go forward one more step, remember you already are. You already are taking steps. You already have done amazing things. You already are showing up. And that alone makes you strong and capable and it’s really hard? Give yourself some space. To recognize that it’s hard, but then at the same time you’re remarkable. See? Look at that! The “both” thing again! Fucking super tired but I’m also super great. Yayyy! Dualities. Everybody? You’re all doing such a good job. You really are. And I will talk to you next week! Bye!

music

“Mama Blues” by Cornbread Ted and the Butterbeans. Strumming acoustic guitar with harmonica and lyrics. _I got the lowdown momma blues_ Got the lowdown momma blues Gots the lowdown momma blues The lowdown momma blues Gots the lowdown momma blues Got the lowdown momma blues You know that’s right [Music fades somewhat, plays in background of dialogue.]

biz

We’d like to thank MaxFun; our producer, Gabe Mara; our husbands, Stefan Lawrence and Jesse Thorn; our perfect children, who provide us with inspiration to say all these horrible things; and of course, you, our listeners. To find out more about the songs you heard on today’s podcast and more about the show, please go to MaximumFun.org/onebadmother. For information about live shows, our book and press, please check out OneBadMotherPodcast.com.

theresa

One Bad Mother is a member of the Maximum Fun family of podcasts. To support the show go to MaximumFun.org/donate. [Music continues for a while before fading out.]

music

A cheerful ukulele chord.

speaker 1

MaximumFun.org.

speaker 2

Comedy and culture.

speaker 3

Artist owned—

speaker 4

—Audience supported.

About the show

One Bad Mother is a comedy podcast hosted by Biz Ellis and Theresa Thorn about motherhood and how unnatural it sometimes is. We aren’t all magical vessels!

Join us every week as we deal with the thrills and embarrassments of motherhood and strive for less judging and more laughing.

Call in your geniuses and fails: 206-350-9485. For booking and guest ideas, please email onebadmother@maximumfun.org. To keep up with One Bad Mother on social media, follow @onebadmothers on Twitter and Instagram.

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