Transcript
biz
Hi. I’m Biz.
theresa
And I’m Theresa.
biz
Due to the pandemic, we bring you One Bad Mother straight from our homes—including such interruptions as: children! Animal noises! And more! So let’s all get a little closer while we have to be so far apart. And remember—we are doing a good job.
music
“Summoning the Rawk” by Kevin MacLeod. Driving electric guitar and heavy drums. [Continues through dialogue.]
biz
This week on One Bad Mother—sushi rolls, not gender roles! We welcome back Lisa Kenney from Reimagine Gender. Plus, I love you guys. [Laughs.]
biz
Biz and caller: Wooo!
caller
I just… saved my one-year-old son from choking. [Laughs.] We’re eating on the—I don’t—forget it. [Laughs.] I did it. I did it and now it’s done and he’s fine and he’s safe. So yeah! Thank you so much for your show. You’ve helped the feelings feel normal. Um… yeah. I guess I can’t redo this. Sorry, guys. Bye! [Biz laughs.]
biz
You don’t have to redo anything! You are amazing! This is a great check-in! Good job! You… just saved your one-year-old! This is like… this is a big deal! This is a big deal. This is like, “Woo! I gotta take off the rest of the day. That was a lot. I’m gonna be dealing with the emotional repercussions of this for a awhile.” This is woo worthy. It’s genius worthy. It’s jump up and down until everyone you know worthy. And I know—I know. Sometimes it can feel like “I shouldn’t tell anybody because what the hell was I doing or whatever? There’s—how did he even start choking? And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah!” And like, how can we spin this into something that we can feel like shit about? And I’m here to say there’s no reason to feel like shit about anything. We need to be out high-fiving each other like maniacs with stuff like this. This is the kind of thing where you’re walking through the grocery store and you’re like, “Hey! How’s it going? My child choked this morning and I saved him! Woo! High five! How about you? High five!” Right? So you are doing amazing! Look at you, being a great parent! I am so, so very fucking impressed. Thank you for calling and sharing that with us. Speaking of thank-yous, it’s time. And I wanna give a special shoutout right off the bat to people who work in labs. You… are always included in my thoughts when I say “medical workers,” but let’s—somebody is processing all those fucking COVID tests, guys. [Laughs.] There are people processing a lot of them. And I want to say—thank you. For that work. That is a lot of work. And you are essential and appreciated and thank you. And thank you to every body who has been out working on these different vaccines. There are many steps in this process and there are many people who are involved in this, and I see you and I appreciate you. Thank you so very much. And as always, thank you to everybody in the medical industry for all that you’re doing. It is getting… very dark out there. As winter is upon us. And I can’t imagine how frustrated you are by people not wearing fucking masks. So I just want to say… I will always wear my mask for you. And thank you to everybody who’s wearing masks! It actually—it—guys? It’s an easy fucking thing to do. ‘K? So thank you to everyone who is wearing their masks. Thank you to the postal service. Thank you to all the small and local businesses who are working incredibly hard to provide us all with options for shopping local and picking those things up? I can’t encourage that enough. So make sure you’re checking out some of your favorite local toy shops or food shops or… bookstores. And what a great way to take care of your holiday shopping as well as supporting local businesses. This is something we can do. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank youuu!
biz
Speaking of things we can do, Ellis’s birthday was last week. [Laughs.] And it was fine. It went fine. Ellis wanted a Lego cake. And I thought—of all the cakes that I have made, I’m gonna be able to make this cake. Right? This is—he just wants it to literally look like a fucking Lego. I have become a master of making icing and cakes from scratch and he wanted a chocolate cake and… made the chocolate cake and then I made all this green icing. I even, like—like, I cut the cake—like, I went through with the knife and slid—I baked the cake in bread pans, right? ‘Cause that’s close to a Lego shape? And then I sliced the little round tops off and then I used a biscuit cutter and made those little Lego knobs to put on top of a six-knobbed Lego. Something went wrong with the icing. I’m not sure. It definitely was not [through laughter] going on smooth. It definitely was one of those situations in which every time I drug the icing tool across it, it just picked up cake and kept going. It was like— [Laughs.] Guys? That… was an ugly cake. I mean, yes. Yes! Yes! It looked like a Lego. In theory. And it was green. And… I put sprinkles all over it and that didn’t do much to help it. But what I love is that I posted it on Instagram— [Laughs.] And everybody was so nice! Everybody was like, “That is amazing! And you’re doing a good job!” And I know that all of you know—this is not the best-looking Lego cake. [Laughs.] Like, I know that! And that’s okay. But you were still so supportive of the effort? And I was like, “Ohhh, thank you, One Bad Mother listeners, for reminding me—it’s about praising and supporting our efforts.” [Laughs.] And not necessarily our outcomes. And so I just was so delighted and tickled by all of the— [Laughs.] Comments. Especially the ones that are like, “That’s amazing!” I’m like, “It’s not, but thank you.” [Laughs.] So… I love you guys. You know who else I love? My children. My children have—over the last year or longer—been going on quite the journey of self-exploration when it comes to their identity and how they would like to express their identity and there’ve been lots of conversations about gender and gender identity and gender roles and all kinds of things in our house recently. And so… today— [Laughs.] We are welcoming back Lisa Kenney, the CEO of Reimagine Gender, to answer a couple of questions that have been brewing in my head lately. As I try to support my children on this journey. [Laughs.]
music
Banjo strums; cheerful banjo music continues through dialogue.
theresa
Please—take a moment to remember: If you’re friends of the hosts of One Bad Mother, you should assume that when we talk about other moms, we’re talking about you.
biz
If you are married to the host of One Bad Mother, we definitely are talking about you.
theresa
Nothing we say constitutes professional parenting advice.
biz
Biz and Theresa’s children are brilliant, lovely, and exceedingly extraordinary.
theresa
Nothing said on this podcast about them implies otherwise. [Banjo music fades out.] [Biz and Lisa repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss the weekly topic.]
biz
We are so excited to welcome back Lisa Kenney. Lisa Kenney is the CEO of Reimagine Gender, an organization dedicated to helping create environments free of constricting gender norms, where everyone is empowered to be their authentic self. Lisa also served as the Executive Director of Reimagine Gender’s sibling organization, Gender Spectrum. She has been a feature speaker at conferences including South by Southwest, Talkonomy, the 3% Conference, Institute for the Future and Sustainable Brands, and has authored articles about gender in publications including Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, Fortune, and Quartz at Work, and you may have heard her here on One Bad Mother in episode 188 and 311. [Laughs.] [Lisa laughs.] Welcome back, Lisa! Woo!
lisa
Thank you, Biz! I really appreciate that! [Biz laughs.] It is great to see you. It’s great to hear your voice.
biz
It’s so fun that we get to see each other over the Zoom!
lisa
I love that! Right? Because we don’t get enough Zoom! But you know what? It’s making it all worthwhile just seeing your face right now. So.
biz
I know! Same here!
biz
Biz: I get to connect— Lisa: I thank you for that. [Laughs.]
biz
—in a whole new way! I’m very pleased. [Lisa laughs.] We’re just gonna spend the next twenty minutes looking into each other’s eyes and—
lisa
That would be so nice, wouldn’t it?
biz
—talking about things in each others’ spaces.
lisa
Okay. That sounds good.
biz
But before we do that, we’re gonna ask you that standard question that we’ve already asked you twice before and we’ll ask you now—who lives in your house?
lisa
Well that’s a really great question!
biz
Mm! Thank you! [Both laugh.]
lisa
You like that question in particular. Right now, my wife lives there. She’s a pretty consistent member of that household. My son, who’s a junior in high school, and my daughter is home from—beginning Thanksgiving break from college! So she’s home, too. So it’s the four of us all at home and I have to say it’s really nice to have my daughter home!
biz
Is it? Is it nice?
lisa
Because—yes! It really is! ‘Cause it has been COVID hell having a college student in a dorm. And so yeah. I’m actually really glad ‘cause I find it much less stressful having her home. And she’s a lovely human being. So I’m—
biz
That is a bonus.
biz
Lisa: Yes. It is. Not to be taken for granted, either. Biz: That—that—no. [Laughs.] No.
biz
Is she at one of those schools that have said “If you go home for break, do not come back”? Or—yeah?
lisa
Yes! So she’s home ‘til the middle of January. Yeah. So it’s nice, actually! Nice little extension. And then she’s going to go back to an apartment, because I cannot deal with the stress of the whole roommate and dorm situation. Yeah. So—
biz
No, that is too stressful! [Laughs.]
lisa
No. Yes. Exactly. Well and also she wouldn’t—she changed schools. She’s a junior this year and she went up to Portland. So the beginning of the year started not only with COVID, but with fires. And so it was just like… yeah. I’m not having fun. I really wish you’d just sort of skip this whole college thing. You know what? I don’t know that you really need to go away. [Biz laughs.] You could just come back home. She’s like, “No, I think not.” But yeah, she’s home and having a little adjusting. ‘Cause her brother, who’s a high school junior who’s had some time to adjust to this online kind of thing and so yeah. We’re all learning. Right? We’re all learning and adapting. [Biz laughs.] Trying to create space for each other. Y’know. Yeah.
biz
Yeah, that’s the big one. We call this place the submarine. We’re constantly trying to like— [Lisa laughs.] —figure out new ways to use spaces and make it work.
lisa
That’s the truth right there. Y’know?
biz
Alright. Speaking of loving our children and them being nice and having them around, not only do we love having you here because—
lisa
Well thank you.
biz
—you help calm me down, as well as—and anybody who’s listening to this show for a long time knows the world of gender identity is… wonderful? And I have stepped in it a few times. And I am learning. And… language in particular—you have come on to help us with. And because I have been so great. [Lisa laughs.] At language now. And live in a place where children—my children, and many children—have been offered a wide range of language that was never available to me as a kid and they go to a school that is very progressive and very—I mean, we are incredibly lucky in that way. When we were growing up, it was two choices, really. Boy and girl. And… I was a quote-unquote “tomboy.” Which, y’know. In the South probably meant everybody thought I was a lesbian. [Lisa laughs.] And as my mother once said in college, “Just let them. Y’know? Just let them.” And I was like, “You’re probably right.” And so, y’know… you just kind of—we just all kind of learned to adapt and deal on some level. And if we expressed ourselves with our clothing or our music or our style or whatever, that was kind of what you did. And no one wanted to talk to you much about it. [Laughs.]
lisa
Right. That’s right! That’s exactly right.
biz
Right? Like it wasn’t like I was ever like, “Well, I’m totally dressing like a dude because of x, y, and z.” You just did it. You just went to Benetton and you hoped you had parents that would like— [Lisa laughs.] —be okay. Right?
lisa
Yeah. And frankly, your parents probably didn’t even wanna hear about it. They didn’t wanna hear what you had to say. They didn’t wanna hear what you were thinking about. They just wanted it to run its course and then—yes. Mm-hm.
biz
Yes! And they love me and that is great. Right. Okay. You can see where we’re headed. I’m a little, y’know, nostalgic on some levels. So both of my kids are having a wonderful time with all of this language that is available to them. And I—y’know. Apologize. I’m gonna go for a little while just to get to where I’m trying to get to.
lisa
That’s right. Take your time.
biz
Lisa: We’re in it together. Okay. Biz: Jump on the train, Lisa. Let’s do it.
biz
So kids now—my kids—have a lot of language available to them. And, y’know, Kat—who is my oldest—who was Katy Belle and is now Kat—
lisa
Uh-huh. Cool. Like the name.
biz
They have their best friend—they have two really good friends. One is trans; the other identifies as bisexual. Again, it feels a little like back when I was growing up, y’know, you just didn’t even want the word gay mentioned near you. And now I’m like, “Are we just competing to see who can be—this is awesome! What is happening? What is this crazy world we’re living in? Like, what?! This is not what eleven-year-old girls used to compete with.” [Laughs.] [Lisa laughs.] Now we’re like, “I’m this! I’m that!” And… over the last year… Kat has gone through identifying as—started off with pan and ace, and then shifted to… genderqueer to genderfluid. I think we’re kind of in a genderfluid area. At the same time, there has been questions of, “Well what would you think if I was trans? I am not trans, but what would you think if I was trans? But I’m not. But if I—” Right. Okay. Now then we have Ellis, who—very early—he is, y’know, by all biological standards, a boy. Loved dresses. Wore dresses as soon as they could speak. I couldn’t come up with a good reason why not. [Laughs.] So, y’know, Ellis has worn a little of A and a little of B and that’s been great. And then in kindergarten, Ellis’s teachers reached out to us and said, “Is Ellis nonbinary?” And we were like, “What?” [Laughs.] “What? I dunno. Maybe?” And the teachers were like, “Well, that’s how they’ve expressed themselves to us.” And we said, “Okay. We will listen. Okay.” And then we asked Ellis and they were like, “Yep.” And we started first grade this year and on their Zoom handle they are a they/them. Very exciting.
lisa
Wow!
biz
Lisa: Good for Ellis! Biz: Again—this kid—
biz
I gotta tell ya. Ellis—Ellis is the one I’m like steady as a storm. This one I’m like, “Eh, yeah. Alright. Sure.” [Laughs.] “Let’s go for it.” I think what my partner Stefan and I have struggled with is—we are very happy to create an environment for these children to express themselves and to try things out. And we have said—repeatedly—to them, “We love you.” Whenever they come at us—like, literally, because they’re our children, they have to literally jump out of a closet and be like, “I’m nonbinary!” Right? [Lisa laughs.] And then we’re like— [Laughs.]
biz
Lisa: Otherwise, it doesn’t register. It doesn’t register. Yeah. Biz: It does not—not—yeah. Does not worth it.
biz
If you’re gonna do it, do the whole show.
biz
Lisa: Go, y’know, go big. Right? Go big. Biz: And—go big. That’s right.
biz
And so—and our responses are always, “Great. Who wants dinner?” Right? Like— [Lisa laughs.] So where we are right now—and it could be because we’re all stuck home together, all the time. I have two sort of questions that I would love your expertise on or your thoughts on, and that is—one—we have looked at each other and said, “Is this really possible that we have two kids in the same house? And is it really possible that we know so many people with kids that are identifying in different ways. Y’know? Is this real? Is it—” It makes me think back to when women started being the right to have divorce, suddenly everyone was divorcing in the ‘70s and ‘80s and you’re like, is it really the—I’ve always argued, “Yeah, it probably was. They’ve just now been able to get the fuck out. Right?” So like—
lisa
That’s right. That’s right.
biz
It’s very possible. So that’s one, is how this language is tying in with sort of… their natural process of expressing themselves and figuring out who they are. And then the second part of this is my husband and I also have talked about feeling like we are experiencing whiplash. Because of—it’s so fluid. And it almost feels like we’re gonna get tricked into failing. Right? Like— [Lisa laughs.] I don’t know—what am I calling you today? What are we—we’ve already told the grandparents one thing. Now, we can’t just keep calling ‘em every week. Right? It’s not fair to them. They’re trying their best. Right? So I lay this upon you, as I’m sure the only person in the world experiencing this now.
lisa
[Through laughter] That’s right. That’s right. It’s just you, Biz.
biz
Just me! It’s just me. [Laughs.] Just me. [Lisa laughs.] So there you go. There was all of that. I’m gonna have coffee. [Laughs.]
lisa
Okay. So you sip your coffee and I’m gonna now tell you some things that I think are gonna help you as you transition from that coffee to wine later today.
biz
Yes. Thank you.
lisa
Both of it’s gonna feel—
biz
Lisa: And not out of—and not out of necessity. Biz: Are you in my house? [Laughs.] How do you know?
lisa
But you’re just gonna be in a happier place. So I’m gonna tell you this. You are not alone. At all.
biz
‘K, that’s good.
lisa
Yeah. It’s absolutely what’s going on with that generation of kids today. I mean, from sort of youngish kids like Ellis’s age to, y’know, sort of mid-20s. That Gen Z group of kids that we talk about. They are the most expansive thinkers about gender that there have ever been. And there are generational divides, right? That we as parents then need to bridge with them. ‘Cause we grew up at a time—and I’m older than you are, I’m quite sure—but I grew up in a time where, y’know, as you said—my parents did not wanna have big conversations. In fact, they didn’t really wanna have any conversations with me. They loved me, but that was—and they made sure to communicate that and I appreciate that. The expectation was, y’know, you go along to get along. You just kinda—the expectation was I was gonna adapt to any systems I was in. The systems were not expected to adapt to me, right? The world wasn’t gonna change for my benefit, which my parents also mentioned on more than one occasion, I’m pretty sure. [Biz laughs.] But I do wanna point out that—y’know—so I just turned 58 recently, and I was thinking about this. I mean, I knew from a really early age that I did not fit in that binary. I tried to. I sort of thought, “Oh, well I guess I’m a tomboy.” Which is the way we tried to—or one of the ways, right? We tried to stretch what it meant to be a girl or a woman. So that was one way. But what happens now is kids just don’t feel like they have to stretch the binary to try to fit into it. They just say, “Maybe it’s not a binary, so therefore I can just figure out what’s going on.” What I love about your story about Kat—and I think it’s one of the most important things that we remember as parents, is—the challenge isn’t really that the kids change their language for their gender. The problem is when they stop telling us he language that they’re using for their gender. Because what they’re trying to do is communicate that as they mature—right? As they grow in their own understanding of themselves and as they mature and acquire new language, they just understand that it’s more nuanced. That it’s a finer grade, if you will, that they’re working with. And so you might start off and just say, “Hey, I know I don’t fit. I’m gonna use a term like—an identity like genderqueer.” And then later you’re gonna hear this new term, maybe genderfluid, and you go, “Oh, you know what? Actually that’s what it is.” Right? And as humans—hopefully, right? We’re evolving. We’re maturing. And as we do, we integrate that information into our sense of self. So what we know about this generation is really important, I think, to start with. One is, we know that the majority of them know kids that go by nonbinary pronouns. So they/them is not a new or extraordinary thing for them. It is ho-hum. It is what they experience. It’s just—it’s as—
biz
[Laughs.] There was this kid in Ellis’s class. I was listening to them over the Zoom. And the kid said, “Well what did your sister go by before changing her name to Kat?” And Ellis says, “My sibling.” And the kid goes—and I’m like, “Woo-hoo! Where—who are these children?!” And then the kid says, “Oh, sorry. Your sibling. Before. What were they born as before they chose to be—” Right? And it was like such a great question and Ellis was like, “Eh, was a girl.” Y’know, and it was—blah, blah, blah. No big deal. But I wanna stop ‘cause I do have a question, and this is the like, “Wah, whiny, I don’t know anything ‘cause I’m of a different generation” question. [Lisa laughs.] You’re welcome. And that is—when we are having these discussions and they are bringing up the—well, specifically Kat. When she’s bringing up these nuances, I think… well… it—I love the concept of nonbinary and I love the concept of genderfluid. These make a lot of sense. And they specifically make a great deal of sense for children. Right? Like, this is a time to be trying out—why on earth would you tell a kid they’re one thing or the other? Let ‘em be a little of everything and have a good time! So… why then do those nuances become important? Like, I mean—I will admit there are times I just wanna say, “Who gives a shit? Boy, girl, female—y’know—pan—blargh!” Going through all of them just like… don’t be a gender. Yeah! So there! Right? And— [Lisa laughs.] —then I’m gonna storm off! Right? Like… I—why is that… nuance… I understand why the nuance is important, or I think I can understand if it was a slightly older generation of people who have been told “You only get two choices.” Right? Like, when you only get two choices, I can understand how very important identity is. And wanting to be identified correctly. But I kinda look at my kids and be like, “No one has ever told you you had to be one thing or the other. What is the deal?” Right? Like— [Laughs.] And maybe that’ll change. But I dunno. How—what kind of an asshole am I for saying that? [Lisa laughs.]
lisa
I don’t think you’re any kind of an asshole for saying that. [Biz laughs.] I think that—I think there’s a couple things. One is—I would say it matters because… you’re not the only influence that’s trying to shape their gender. That’s one reason. They live in a society and in a world that is trying to shape their gender and messaging what it means to be a gender. Whatever gender that is. I think that’s one reason. I think another reason is that—self-understanding—sort of understanding who we are—is always really important, no matter what age you are. And so that process of saying, “Wait a minute, is this how I see myself? Or is this how I see myself?” And that’s a moment in time, right? It’s because that’s continuing to change. I think that’s really important. And the third answer, I would say, to that is that—I think that for all of us, as we try to fit who we’re expected to be, we become less and less of who we are.
biz
Wooo. Whoaaa! That was good, Lisa! [Lisa laughs.] Just like—dear god, that was—that was good. That’s—
lisa
Well, thanks. I’ll get you a shirt made—
biz
Lisa: —I’m gonna send it over to you. Yep. I will. I will. Biz: [Excitedly] Please! I want a shirt that says that! [Laughs.]
lisa
But I think that that’s part of it too, right? So if I can take these things that—these expectations that are coming at me. And if I can say, “Wait a minute. No. I’m defining who I am first. And I’m gonna start there.” Then I’m less likely to then constrict myself in ways where I become… somebody else or some lesser version or begin carving off whole parts of me. Y’know, these kids—even if they go to a progressive school. Even if they have progressive parents. Even if they get all these messages that are affirming. Are still getting a much higher percentage of messages that are saying “It is not okay.” And they begin to say, “Oh, that’s right. I shouldn’t have these interests. I shouldn’t want this activity. This is not how girls are supposed to act or boys are supposed to act or nonbinary kids are supposed to act.” I remember—and we think that gender-averse kids—whether it’s nonbinary or trans kids—think that, “Oh, they get all this freedom.” No, they don’t! They spend as much time looking at this and going, “Gee, why did I wear this? Is this what a nonbinary kid would wear?” [Biz laughs.] Right? These are all influences that we’re all struggling with. So I think it’s one of those ways in which we—these are important questions to ask and answer and maybe even more important when we’re younger. When we still haven’t stopped asking as many questions. Right? We’re still engaged in the inquiry of who we are and what’s the story we’re writing. Unfortunately, the older we get we tend to stop asking those questions from the same openness that we do as kids. And I think these are really, really important things. I remember reading—not to now bring up economic studies—
biz
Lisa: —as if that’s kind of a fun— [Laughs.] Biz: I love an economic study. Bring it on!
lisa
I was thinking of this economic study ‘cause you were talking about, y’know, being raised in the South. And I remember this study that came out maybe a couple of years ago from the University of Chicago. And it was looking at the impact of a woman’s lifelong earnings based on where she grew up. Right? So one of the things that was interesting is, depending—the influence on the level of sexism where you live. So what we know is that girls who grow up int eh South, for example— [Biz laughs.] —will have less lifelong earnings than a girl that grows up to become a woman from the Pacific Coast, for example. Even if those two girls—as they become women—go to New York and take the same job and the same thing. The girl from the South— [Biz gasps.] —because of those influences, will earn less money. She will work less and she will earn less money. So—
biz
Is it the accent? [Lisa laughs.]
lisa
I think actually the accent’s kinda sexy, so I think that’s a plus. I don’t know.
biz
Well thank you! I appreciate that, but man oh man, when I was working in corporate America did I get the like, [in exaggerated Southern drawl] “Hi, Elizabeth!” [Regular voice] I was like, if this was a French accent you would not mock this.
biz
Lisa: That’s exactly right. That’s right. [Laughs.] Biz: Settle down. Y’know? But—anyway. Go ahead. [Laughs.]
lisa
So I think that sometimes we think that these processes that our kids are in somehow, y’know, it—is it serious. Does it matter. And I think it actually matters a great deal. Because if you’re engaged in that inquiry and you’re looking at the world around you and you’re trying to figure this out, you’re more likely to disrupt those stereotypes. You’re more likely to say, “Wait a minute. I don’t—I can be who I am. I don’t need to begin to conform to this.” And these have real issues. Lifelong implications for our kids. It’s also, y’know, true that—and I think for boys—and as I mentioned, I have a 17-year-old son—when I watch him and his peers, I see a lot of the same pressures and the same ways that these boys are expected to conform to these ideas of masculinity— [Biz makes a “blech” noise.] —and the pressure to have a certain kind of physicality or certain way in which they’re supposed to, y’know, interact with one another and interact with everybody else. And it’s like, if we don’t help them—how do you grow up to be a healthy man if you can’t get some healthy ideas of what boyhood looks like, right? And healthy relationships, too.
biz
That’s so interesting because Stefan and I were on a walk and we were talking about—it was like one of those days where we had just been hit with a lot of, like, “I’m this and that! Woo! Ahh! These are all the accessories I need.” Right? [Lisa laughs.] So we’d been hit with—I mean, they’re still 11 and 7. Right? IT’s just— [Laughs.] He and I are out walking and he said, “I just want a day—or week—where no one talks about gender in this house.” And I said, “Yeah.” And he said, “And what sucks is it’s not even really about them. It’s about… me discovering all these things that I didn’t think I had a problem with. I’m having to like sort through some stuff that I really didn’t think was there.” And… I was like… “Ooooh. Interesting. Okay.” And so like—
biz
Biz: Yeah. And I think that that’s— Lisa: Yeah! No, I think he’s right!
biz
But I think that taps into what you were saying. This like… it’s not just about the kid. It’s about all of the, like, baggage and history and lessons and stories that we all bring to it.
lisa
That’s right. And that’s why looking at our own gender story is really important. Because it is the lens through which we parent around gender in particular. And I think, y’know, your partner’s absolutely right, too. When you think about, really, the break is not from the kids, but it’s from the self-examination that they force you to do. Now that’s true about anything in parenting, right? But it’s particularly on an issue that is so fundamental to who we are as people. But in fact, we think about so little. Right? Just simply most—most adults—unless they needed to. Either because of their own gender or the gender of somebody they cared about. Just haven’t thought about it. It’s really just the water we’re swimming in. And so now all of a sudden they’re bringing it up and they’re wanting to have conversations and they have access to language that most adults do not have. And so you just feel completely inadequate. And I think a lot of parents are like, “Listen, my kid clearly knows more about this topic than I do.” [Biz laughs.] So, y’know. And you don’t wanna see that eyeroll where they’re looking at you like, “Oh my god. I have told you this so many times.” It’s sort of like—I remember when my daughter was going through a Disney princess period and she just kept—y’know, she would talk about ‘em and she wanted to have a conversation and I’m like, “Is that the one where all the animals come around?” She’s like, “Oh my god.”
biz
Lisa: “Like, how many times have I explained?” Biz: That’s every princess! [Laughs.]
lisa
But she’s like, “No. This one has blonde hair. This one has brown.” And she was just exasperated by, y’know, “How do you not understand this yet?” And I think a lot of our kids are helping us try to understand it and they’re communicating— [Biz laughs.] —and thank god they’re communicating about ourselves. Right? They’re telling you this really important information about themselves. We know that in this same generation, y’know, less than half of them—y’know—always pick clothes that were designed for their gender. We know that, y’know, they just see it so much more expansively. It’s not just pronouns; it’s the clothes they buy. It’s how they identify. It’s the way that they interact. It’s the expectations they have in the marketplace about who’s doing what and, “If you’re trying to tell me—if you just send me pink things ‘cause you think I’m a girl? I’m not even gonna deal with you! I’m not gonna engage with you because clearly you not only not know me, but you don’t even understand gender.” So all of these things are really interesting. I do think it’s important—when we think about identity—I was reading a study not long ago where it was a global study, too, and of the basically teens and the Gen Z and young adults, 23% of those kids globally expected to change their gender identity at least once in their lifetime. That’s just not something that would’ve ever happened when I was a kid.
biz
So now… talk to me about me. Please. What am I supposed to do? She’s—they’re gonna be fine. [Laughs.]
lisa
Yeah. They’re gonna be fine. That’s right. That’s the truth! They’re gonna be fine and we, y’know, need to sort of figure out how to show up in this sort of new evolving world.
biz
Right. How to walk with them.
lisa
The one thing to keep in mind, too—when you’re hearing the language changes—is that—and this is an American Academy of Pediatrics. I would say it’s also true in the work that I’ve done in my life. Is that by age four, kids have a fairly stable gender. That doesn’t mean their gender identity is gonna be stable. So if we think about gender—and we talked about this in one of the previous visits. There’s really three dimensions. Sort of bodies, which are not just biology but how bodies are gendered. So bodies and identity and our social aspect of our gender. So their identity may change a hundred times. [Laughs.] Or at least once for at least 23% of Gen Zs globally.
biz
Right. [Laughs.]
lisa
So there’s that. But by age four—and if you think about, y’know, and everybody who’s listening. If we think about that, you sort of had a pretty good sense by about that age that you were not only probably a boy or a girl, if you grew up with a binary language, but what kind of boy or what kind of girl you were. Like you had a sense of yourself. You could kind of locate yourself relative to the people you knew and all of that. But as they grow and they do acquire language, there is this way in which they’re trying to say, “Okay. Which is right?” And we have to remember, too, that the terms can mean different things to different people. Which adds to the confusion for parents. So somebody can say genderqueer and one kid means one thing by that or one adult means a different thing by that or however that plays out. So in some ways it takes the pressure off us as parents because what we can say is, “Hey, I’ve heard that term and I know that people use it in different ways. I’m curious what that term means to you.” And if it’s a different term than you heard last week or the week before, you can say, “That is a really good—thanks for sharing.” So it’s always important to validate them. “And I’m curious—what does that term mean to you, and what shifted in your understanding of yourself that this now feels like—"
biz
A better fit.
lisa
“A better fit. Right? That feels more right for you.” And the truth is—y’know, if we think about this idea of congruence and apply it to gender—and I think a lot about gender congruence. We all want those three dimensions to feel in harmony with one another. We want to feel at home in our bodies. We want an identity that says what we think about ourselves or reflects sort of how we see ourselves, and we want to be seen and respected in the way that we see ourselves and that we want to be seen. And so I think that the search for identity… for the language of identity, is really important. Because we want that that best describes. Not that’s just wholly inadequate and I’m trying to throw things together. But the one that just says, “Yeah. It may still not be perfect, but it’s the closest thing I’ve ever heard that feels right.” And it’s powerful! It’s powerful to have language for yourself that describes yourself. That describes yourself experience and your own understanding. So I think those things are really, really helpful. I think as parents one of the things that’s helpful is to read. To talk to people about, y’know—
biz
What?! [Laughs.]
biz
Biz: Research?! Ugh! Lisa: I know. Who needs that?!
lisa
I think, too, that things like a gender story are important. Spend some time asking yourself, y’know, things like—what were the earliest memories you have of your own gender? What were the messages you got? Y’know, how are kids treated who maybe didn’t fit the norms? Did I think that was right? Did I not think it was right? I mean, I think—as you were talking about with your partner—I think Stefan’s getting to something, which is—it brings us all—and requires all of us to think about things that we may not have that we may then look at and go, “How did I get to the age that I am and I haven’t thought about this.” [Biz laughs.] “Why is it that my 7- and 11-year-old are thinking about this in a much more sophisticated, nuanced, and mature way than I am?” Right? But if we can get past that discomfort and sometimes shame and just look at it and say, “We all come to our gender stories—rightfully so. We grew up where we did. We have the communities we grew up in. We heard the messages maybe at church or at a mosque or synagogue or wherever, where we heard those. Or the local community center or the ethnic traditions that required certain things or, y’know, messages—"
biz
Other peoples’ parents. [Laughs.]
lisa
Absolutely! Absolutely! And I think all those things, y’know, we came to that. We came to that rightfully so. So for us to just be okay with that and then begin to think about, okay. Let’s—let me understand my own story. How is that affecting how I’m parenting? Because I may be reacting to certain things because in fact I’m uncomfortable with that. Or, y’know, in my day—don’t necessarily have to tell your kids ‘cause this will just reinforce the fact that you’re just old and don’t understand— [Biz laughs.] —but you can think to yourself, anyway, “In my day, if somebody did that, this is what would happen to them.” And of course so much of what we are worried about—right? The amount of fear that we all carry around as parents is just enormous, constantly. And so a lot of what happens is we get triggered because we become afraid. And we don’t want anything bad to happen to our kids and our memory of what happens to these kids is they get hurt. Right? They’re either hurt psychologically; they’re hurt physically; whatever. They’re gonna be hurt. And you, of course, want to protect your children. Y’know, you love these kids more than you ever knew you could love anybody, ever. [Biz laughs.] And you wanna protect them. And in fact sometimes this instinct to protect doesn’t protect. It actually makes it harder for them. And so I think that’s the thing. If we can start with our own gender story and try to understand how we’re parenting from that gender story and how that makes us want to protect and create a safe world around our kids, and then ask ourselves—wait a minute. Is that actually the same world that our kids are living in today, or am I protecting out of my childhood and not theirs, right? Because the world they’re growing up in is really different!
biz
It’s like when you show your kid a movie from like the ‘80s or even ‘90s— [Lisa laughs.] —and they look at you, and they’re like, “How is this even remotely okay?” [Laughs.] “This is—what did they just say?! What’s happening?” Y’know, you’re like, “Oh, uh, sorry. Oh yeah. Huh. Guess that—guess that is a little weird. Huh.” [Lisa laughs.]
lisa
My son, the other night, said—I said, “Oh, let’s watch this thing! I think you’re gonna really love it!” And we’re watching it and he goes, “Where do these ideas of masculinity even come from?” He thought—he just couldn’t even get it! And I was like, “Huh. Yeah. I guess I see it now.” [Laughs.]
biz
Never gonna show you Grease. That’s for sure. [Lisa laughs.] That’s never, ever showing you Grease. Can’t even begin to find the words to answer the questions you’re gonna ask me about [through laughter] this movie. Just… and that’s gonna be okay. We’re all gonna be okay.
lisa
Yeah. That’s right. That’s right.
biz
Lisa, thank you, thank you. Thank you for coming on, as always. And thanks for answering these questions. Because it—y’know. Like you said, and like I said—we love these kids. And I want them to feel… safe doing whatever it is that they need to do to figure out who they are. And… it’s hard as an adult when you know what a lifetime process that is?
lisa
Yep.
biz
Watching young people who need—who have that sense of urgency about it. And, y’know, that’s another place that we have to step back on, which sucks. [Laughs.] [Lisa laughs.]
biz
Lisa: Yeah. Just another one of those—that’s right. Biz: Add it to the list of things that suck.
biz
We’re gonna make sure—as always—that we link everybody up to both—I went right—by the way, I went right to Gender Spectrum when this all started unloading in the house. I was so thankful that that resource was there. And this morning, Kat was actually looking at the Reimagine Gender section ‘cause I was like, “Oh, Lisa Kinney’s gonna be on. Do you want me to—do you have any questions?” [Laughs.] She was like, “Maybe.” And she was like, “I really like this Reimagine Gender site!” I mean, just your front page of information—she was like, “This is so good!” Check your email ‘cause she was like, “Can I write them a letter?” I’m like, “Absolutely. Go for it.”
lisa
Absolutely! Good.
biz
So thank you for providing these resources and— [Laughs.] We’ll have you back. [Laughs.]
lisa
Well good. I’d love that. I appreciate being on today and, y’know, we’re all in it together, Biz. I’m right there with you and y’know—I’ll tell you, everything you said about your kids? Sounds like they’re in a pretty good place. Right? They’re trying to figure it out and they’re telling you. And as long as—I just keep coming back—as long as our kids are in a conversation, it’s all okay. And we just need to keep reflecting back that we love ‘em. And not because of this gender stuff, but simply because they are just lovely human beings—
biz
Lisa: —and we’re privileged to— Biz: They’re just perfect in every way! [Laughs.]
lisa
Just gotta love them. Just gotta love ‘em.
biz
Biz: That’s right! Thank you, Lisa! Lisa: So you’re doing a good thing. Thanks so much!
lisa
Thanks so much for having me on!
music
“Ones and Zeroes” by “Awesome.” Steady, driving electric guitar with drum and woodwinds. [Music fades out.]
music
Cheerful ukulele and whistling plays in background.
theresa
One Bad Mother is supported in part by Billie. Self-care and routine are more important than ever. Whatever you’re using to get ready for the day should make you feel amazing.
biz
Meet Billie! Billie gives you an extra-smooth shave. What I like about Billie is I don’t have to go over it two or three times, guys. And I know you’re like, “Why would you even have to go over it two or three times?” Well, eh… pandemic. [Laughs.] I’m just letting it be. There’s no pink tax and you don’t have to go to the drugstore. Also points. And their starter kit is jut $9 and includes their award-winning razor—which I have just said is very good—two refill blades, and a magnetic holder, which I also love ‘cause it keeps your razor from getting gross and sitting in sticky, yuck, gross stuff. And guess what? The holidays are here. [Laughs.] Another good reason to probably bust out your Billie and shave. Their new, limited-edition bundles makes the perfect gift and come wrapped and ready.
theresa
Go to MyBillie.com/mother to get the best razor you’ll ever own. It’s just $9 to get your starter kit, plus free shipping always. Go to MyBillie.com/mother. That’s spelled B-I-L-L-I-E.com/mother. [Music fades out.]
theresa
Hey, you know what it’s time for! This week’s genius and fails! This is the part of the show where we share our genius moment of the week, as well as our failures, and feel better about ourselves by hearing yours. You can share some of your own by calling 206-350-9485. That’s 206-350-9485.
biz
Genius fail time, Theresa! Genius me!
clip
[Dramatic, swelling music in background.] Biz: Wow! Oh my God! Oh my God! I saw what you did! Oh my God! I’m paying attention! Wow! You, mom, are a genius. Oh my God, that’s fucking genius! [Biz and Theresa repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss their respective genius moments of the week.]
theresa
[Biz laughs.] Okay. I solved a little problem.
biz
Oooh!
theresa
Oscar said that his nose hurt.
biz
Oh!
theresa
I think it was just dryness. Because it’s very dry here. There was nothing I could really do, as far as I knew. I was like, “Oh, that’s—” but he was like [makes whimpering noises] “Really—” The whining. It was just—
biz
Yeah. The whining.
theresa
It was—he really was uncomfortable. But then I was thinking back to like when everyone was a baby and like you could get the saline spray to spray in their nose? And then it would kind of help? And [through laughter] we had some of that because it was like leftover from when Grace had her ears pierced like a year ago. And I… told him he could spray it in his nose. And I was pretty sure it would help? But I didn’t think he would be willing to do it? [Biz laughs.] But he totally was, and he thought it was kind of funny, and it actually really helped him, and because he’s up for it, he’s willing to do it himself when he needs to. So I don’t have to, like… follow him around offering to do that or respond when he—he can just go get it from the bathroom and spray it up his nose.
biz
[Laughs.] Spray it up your nose, Oscar! I—that is great! Good job! You did solve a little problem, like—
theresa
Solved a little problem!
biz
Biz and Theresa: Yeah!
biz
Okay. My genius—we got the flu shots. So I took Ellis— [Theresa sighs.]
theresa
Good job.
biz
I took Ellis to go for their annual physical, and we knew the flu shot—
theresa
Sorry, that was—hidden genius! You took Ellis to go for their annual physical. That—doesn’t that count as a genius right there?
biz
Yes. Okay. That is also a genius.
biz
Theresa: ‘K. Sorry to interrupt. Go on. Biz: That’s fine. I’ll take—
biz
I’ll add ‘em up. Somebody start a tally sheet! So we go— [Laughs.] Two. It’ll be two on my tally sheet. [Laughs.] Anyway. We go— [Theresa laughs.] —Ellis is not looking forward to it. We know we are both getting a flu shot. Last year’s flu shot—for those who may remember—he had many shots last year and when they got this flu shot last year, Ellis screamed like so loud that the nurse just left. And then during the, like, five to eight minutes of more screaming, different nurses would come in, like, and open the door thinking something was wrong and then just back out. Right? Like—“We don’t wanna see this.”
theresa
“Oh, it’s that.” Yeah. Yeah.
biz
So we had, y’know, “Gonna get a toy. Gonna get a special toy when we do this. This is a thing. I’ve got it in my bag.” And that didn’t backfire so that was good. And by the time the shot came, Ellis started, like, freaking out. I can’t do this. Screaming at the top of their lungs. [Quietly screaming] “I can’t do this!!!” Right? And the nurse is being very nice ‘cause she really loves Ellis ‘cause Ellis has spent eight hours charming everybody in the whole place, and I said, “Ellis, we’ve got two choices here. You’re gonna be getting a flu shot.” Right? “We can, y’know, take a deep breath. Count to ten. And I hold you. Or I’m gonna have to really hold you. And she’s gonna give it to you, breath or no breath.” And so—again—still screaming. And then eventually she and I looked at each other and I gave it the big tight grip and she did it so fast. And even—and I got mine and when I got mine—I hate fucking flu shots. And it was quick! She was very good! Ellis did not reach the peak again. So Ellis was like, “That was horrible and I hated it” and there were a few tears. And then later, after having time to think about it, more tears came. And then… for the next 24 hours, up until right now, there’s been lots of like, [whimpering] “[Inaudible] I can’t even use my arm!” I’m just like, “Tough it up! I can’t either, but here I am.” Anyway.
theresa
Oh. That is really so hard. Good job doing—deciding to do it. Doing it. Preparing for it. Being there all the way through it. Following through—
biz
Theresa: —on everything that you said you were do— Biz: Oh yeah. ‘Cause there was a moment where I was like, “We’re not doing this.”
biz
“Fuck this. My child doesn’t wanna do this. We are not doing this. I’m not gonna scar them for life.” Yeah. No.
theresa
Of course! Of course you considered that.
biz
And then I was like, “Fuck it. We’re going all in.” Mm-hm.
theresa
Yeah! You’re dealing with the stress and the screaming anyway. You might as well be inoculated against the flu virus.
biz
Right! [Laughs.] Correct. [Laughs.]
theresa
Good job.
biz
Thank you.
caller
[Answering machine beeps.] Hi, Biz and Theresa! This is a genius. So I have a three-and-a-half year old who really isn’t enthused about brushing his teeth. It is kind of a struggle every night to get him interested in brushing his teeth and having to help him. [Theresa laughs.] We’ve tried various methods and ways of doing it and, y’know, pretending to blast the germs—pyew, pyew, pyew!—and all sort of different things. [Biz laughs.] And I’m just like, “You know what?” The phone and YouTube Kids is my friend. Why not just use it? I went on to YouTube kids and pulled up Blippi, and Toothbrushing Song. And so now every night we are reliably, at least, for two weeks— [Biz laughs.] —or so, knock on wood, brushing our teeth every night while listening to the very obnoxious Blippi Toothbrushing Song. But he loves watching the video and so he lets me help him brush his teeth and we get that done every night. So even though I have that horrible song in my head afterwards, I call it a win because we don’t have any fights about toothbrushing now! And I’m just waiting to see how long this lasts. But for now, I’m gonna enjoy it. Thanks, everyone. I love your show. Take care. Bye.
biz
I really think you’re doing a great job. And it felt worth bringing back a toothbrushing genius. ‘Cause like, it’s easy to forget how much—it made me think, “What is the deal with not wanting to brush your teeth?” I mean, like, look. Whatever. I get it. [Laughs.] But it’s—like—I’ve yet to get the call that’s like, “My kid fucking loves brushing their teeth.” I suppose if your kid really loves brushing their teeth, you wouldn’t call the Hotline. If your kid loves brushing their teeth, call the Hotline. Just so I can know if this exists. But like… I— [Laughs.]
theresa
Curtis likes to brush his teeth. [Biz gasps.]
theresa
Theresa: He always has. Biz: That’s because Curtis is alright, alright, alright! [Laughs.]
theresa
He always has, yeah. He’s always liked to brush his teeth. He’s all good with brushing his teeth. But I will say that’s weird, that he’s into it. And also I—my favorite part of this call was just at the beginning when she’s like, “He really isn’t enthused about brushing his teeth every night.” [Biz laughs.] [Through laughter] It’s just like, I just love that choice of words so much. Like that you—that kids would be enthused. Like, “Let’s get a little enthusiasm going for the teeth-brushing every night, kids!”
biz
Woo! Here it comes! Here it comes! [Laughs.]
theresa
Let’s get going! Yeah! [Laughs.]
biz
[Singing intro to “Get Ready for This” by 2 Unlimited] [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.] “Are you ready for this?” [Regular voice] Anyway. Well, you’re doing an amazing job. You guys? We are way too into this to not use our fucking phones whenever we need to, guys. We are way too into this now. So good job.
theresa
Good job.
biz
Failures!
clip
[Dramatic orchestral music plays in the background.] Theresa: [In a voice akin to the Wicked Witch of the West] Fail. Fail. Fail. FAIL! [Timpani with foot pedal engaged for humorous effect.] Biz: [Calmly] You suck! [Biz and Theresa repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss their respective failures of the week.]
biz
Fail me, Theresa.
theresa
I have so many failures. I’ve just been stacking them. Just stacking them. Stacking them and stacking them.
biz
Dagwood sandwich of failures? I’m so old, everybody. Go ahead.
theresa
No, I remember Dagwood.
biz
Eh, he’s still around. [Laughs.]
theresa
Yeah. I’ve just been really—I’ve just—I’ve just been forgetting things. Not staying on top of things. And this week, I… [Laughs.] Totally forgot about both of Curtis’s speech therapy appointments. Both of them. And like had been—they were on the daily schedule. Like, we have a visual schedule in our house for the day. They were on there. And when I pick him up from school, I talked about it. I had it in my—like, I fully had it in my plan until we like got home and people got settled and I just went off to—who knows what I was doing.
biz
Stand in a corner? [Laughs.]
theresa
Yeah! I have no idea. But both times—thankfully—his therapist texted me like ten minutes into the appointment. Like, “Hey, are we still on?” And I’m like, “Okay. Yes! Of course!” And then just the second time that I did it, I couldn’t even believe it. I just said, “I did it again. I don’t know. I can’t even explain it. There’s no reason. He’s right here.” And then we just went. Joined really late.
biz
Yeah. It’s not like you’re driving somewhere.
theresa
Biz: You’re like just—you just gotta—yeah. [Laughs.] Theresa: Right. W don’t have to drive somewhere. Its’ just on Zoom. Yeah.
theresa
I don’t know. I don’t know.
biz
You’re—bye-bye, Theresa.
biz
Biz: Theresa go bye-bye. Theresa: Yeah. Bye!
theresa
Yeah! Not here. [Biz laughs.]
biz
Not here.
theresa
Gone fishin’.
biz
That is— [Laughs.] Is because your brain is full of fish, Theresa. [Theresa laughs.] It’s just full of—remember—I think we’ve had maybe one or two shows in which we’ve said, “Do you remember how tired we were? Did you think we could get more tired?” And then we were like, “Yes.” And then we were like, “But could you get more tired than that tired that you were that time?”
theresa
I just had this vision of the “Haggard and Broken” shirt, only it says, like, “Haggard-er and Broken-er.” Like we just ad “-er and -er”— [Laughs.]
biz
To the end. [Laughs.] Wait for that, guys! That’ll be out soon. [Theresa laughs.] Well, you are doing a horrible job. Staying on top of it.
theresa
I really am.
biz
Yeah. Okay. I believe I’ve said on this show that I’m missing, like, sort of big body experiences. Y’know, I like to go out, dig a garden. Right? Or do something big and moving things around and like, “Oh, the garbage disposal broke? I’ll replace the garbage disposal! I can do that!” Right? So Stefan and I have—since the pandemic really began and we’ve been home staring at our house—have been thinking about, like, cost-effective things we could do to perk up the house. Right? And this included painting the really beautiful—in design—but disgusting in color and use—porch. And the matching trim that goes around the three big windows—original glass—of our very old house. And we’ve never done anything. And then I was like, “I bet I could do this. This is—I’ll start smart with the windows. Because I don’t want to do all this work on the porch and then have the stuff from the window fall on that.” Right? I found a very eco-friendly process of using a heat gun—I like anything called a heat gun! And you just heat up the old paint and scrape it off. ‘K? Guys, I did that! I did it. The— [Laughs.] That was three days ago. My whole—there is a heating pad behind me right now. And my hand—the scraping hand—the one that was like, “Aaah!” Just going at it like a violent toothbrush—is so crippled with pain right now. I mean, there are like—I’m like, “Are there muscles between each of your finger bones? Like, your hand bones?” Like, it’s so—
theresa
Like, the tendons or something.
biz
Theresa: I shouldn’t say words I don’t know what it is. Yeah. Biz: And like the weird area between your wrist and your elbow?
biz
I don’t know. Everything from my elbow to my fingertips is… is as if I’ve done, like, I dunno. A triathlon, but just on that part of my body.
theresa
Yeah. It’s like dry nasal passages, almost. Almost as bad as if your nasal passages are dry.
biz
Almost as bad as a flu shot. Right. Yes. Almost as bad as this. Not as bad. But almost as bad. I hurt so much and I know that I can’t stop. If I stop, this is never going to happen.
theresa
Oh, right!
biz
Biz: Right? Like right now—now they’re just shabby chic looking window frames! Theresa: You’re not done! There’s more! Like, a lot more? Yeah. Right.
biz
And definitely not gonna strip the paint on the porch. That’s 100%. But like—I still have to like… repaint this and do some like—there were some moments where I started peeling one thing off and you hear the window go, [makes wobbly noise] and you’re like, “I’m gonna… look at some more YouTube videos.” And like, yeah. [Theresa laughs.] So… I’m… doing it. But I think the lesson learned is… you can’t just not do stuff for a really long period of time and then hurl your body into it, as if you were still 36. That’s—‘cause remember—I think I’m 36 but I’m 42 and I’m not 42 anymore, either. So— [Laughs.] [Singing] You think you’re 42 but you’re 46! [Regular voice] Oh my god! Anyway. So a lotta pain. And shabby chic windows. Merry Christmas! [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.]
theresa
Bah, humbug.
biz
Bah, humbug!
caller
[Answering machine beeps.] Hi, Biz and Theresa! I am calling with a fail and also with a thank-you. But first a fail. I was putting the baby down for a nap and I come downstairs and my three-and-a-half-year-old comes up to me and says, “Mommy, I drank your fizzy water and it was icky.” So I’m racking my brain. We call sparkling water “fizzy water,” so okay, did I have that? No. I only have water in a water bottle. It’s regular water that should taste fine. What could this be? So I think more for a little bit and I say, “Hey, will you show me what fizzy water you drank?” And she takes me into my bathroom and shows me the eye makeup remover that he drank. “It tasted icky, Mommy.” Yep! ‘Cause it was eye makeup remover and not water, so fail. Apparently I need to lock that cabinet. But I want to say thank you because I’ve been listening to old episodes and not too long ago I listened to the episode where you talked to Poison Control. And so there was no panic. I knew exactly what to do. I called Poison Control. They answered immediately. Told them what had happened—no judgment. They were super helpful. And they told me that it was not a big deal. He was going to be fine. And he is fine. So… fail on my part. Eye makeup remover is not fizzy water. Gotta teach my three-and-a-half-year-old that. But overall, good outcome! Thanks. Everyone’s doing a great job.
biz
Yeah. Well first of all—how dare you leave your bathroom items out in your bathroom. [Laughs.]
theresa
Yup. Or in a—it sounded like they were in a cabinet. Yeah.
biz
In the cabinet, no less! And it’s like… this is obviously not a drink. Anyway. Right. [Both laugh.] Like—
theresa
Were you keeping it in a mason jar, at least? Or something?
biz
Theresa: Like, I’m trying to figure out— [Laughs.] You were using one of his sippy cups to store it. Biz: Or a straw? Yeah. Do you apply it with a drinking straw?
biz
Yeah. I store my cleaner in a sippy cup that says “Drink Me.” Alright. Also—good job calling Poison Control! You are like The Fonz. You just picked it up. You were super cool. You did it. No panic. And… as always, shoutout to Poison Control for no judgment and quick response. I just—I think… you’re doing a very good job in one part of your life. [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.] And otherwise, stop wearing eye makeup! Where are you going? It’s the pandemic. Eye makeup. Doing a horrible job.
music
“Mom Song” by Adira Amram. Mellow piano music with lyrics. You are the greatest mom I’ve ever known. I love you, I love you. When I have a problem, I call you on the phone. I love you, I love you. [Music fades out.]
music
Inspirational keyboard music plays in background.
biz
One Bad Mother is supported in part by KiwiCo. While this holiday season may look a little different, it’s still the season to celebrate moments of wonder and discovery with a KiwiCo hands-on science and art project.
theresa
If you guys have been listening to this show for a while, you probably know that I’m not very crafty. [Biz laughs.] I recently did a kit with Curtis, my three-and-a-half-year-old. The kits are so well spaced for age groups and development stages. So in this case we were doing a rainbow kit, and the activity we chose was making a pillow with a rainbow on it. And it was so straightforward and simple and he could do all of the parts himself.
biz
KiwiCo is redefining learning with hands-on projects that build confidence, creativity, and critical thinking skills. There’s something for every kid—or kit at heart—at KiwiCo. You can get 50% off your first month, plus free shipping on any crate line with code “badmother” a KiwiCo.com. That’s 50% off your first month at K-I-W-I-C-O.com, promo code “badmother.”
promo
Music: Fun, jaunty, upbeat music. Renee Colvert: Well, hello. I’m Renee Colvert. Alexis Preston: Hi, I’m Alexis Preston. And we’re the hosts of Can I Pet Your Dog. Renee: And we got breaking news. We got an expose! All the beans have been spilled, via… an Apple Podcast review that said, “This show isn’t well researched.” [Alexis gasps.] Renee: Well, yeah, no duh. Of course, it’s not! Not since the day we started has it been well researched! Guessing and anthropomorphizing dogs is what we do. Alexis: The Can I Pet Your Dog promise is that we will never do more than ten seconds of research before telling you, excitedly, about any dog we see. Renee: I’m gonna come atcha with top-ten enthusiasm, minimal facts. Alexis: [Chuckling.] We’re here for a good time, not an educated time. Renee: So, if you love dogs and you don’t love research— [Alexis cackles.] Renee: Well, you know what. Come on in to Can I Pet Your Dog podcast, every Tuesday on Maximum Fun network. [Alexis giggles as the music ends.]
promo
Janet Varney: Hey. I’m Janet Varney, host of The JV Club podcast. [School bell rings. The muffled sounds of talking in the hallway.] Janet: Ah, high school. Was it a time of adventure, romance, and discovery? Speaker 1: [Cheering.] Class of ’95! We did iiiit! Janet: Or— [Rain sound effect.] Janet: A time of angst, disappointment, and confusion? Speaker 2: We’re all tied together by four years of trauma, at this place, but enjoy adulthood, I guess! [A chorus of boos.] Janet: The truth is? It was both! Music: Bouncy music fades in. Janet: So, join me on The JV Club podcast, where I invite some great friends, like Kristen Bell, Angela Kinsey, Oscar Nunez, Neil Patrick Harris, Keegan-Michael Key, to talk about high school: the good, the bad, and everything in between. Speaker 3: My teenage mood swings are [voice dropping into something gruff and aggressive] gettin’ harder to manage! Janet: The JV Club. Find it on Maximum Fun. [Music fades out.]
biz
Bust out your flannel jammies and your hot cocoa and snuggle up with Theresa—like the warm pillow that she is—and let’s listen to a mom have a breakdown.
caller
[Answering machine beeps.] [Through weeping] I’m having a breakdown. In the IKEA parking lot. Because this weekend, I bought a couch. Which was its own saga I won’t get into. But one piece of the couch is too big. So I went—so I put the kids down to bed, and I thought, I’ll go do it when it’s quiet in the evening. IKEA doesn’t close ‘til 9:00. I got this huge piece of furniture into the car. I got it out of the car by myself onto the trolley. Up to the returns station. Only to see that the returns section of the store closed an hour earlier. I almost burst into tears right there in front of those poor workers. And it’s not their fault. There’s nothing they can do about it. They can’t reopen the system or whatever, but now [through laughter] I’ve spent 45 minutes driving to IKEA, doing this stupid walking, heavy trip up to the returns section and now I have to drive home with this piece of furniture still in my car. And now I’m gonna have to do it during working hours because there’s no other time when I have childcare. So… I guess it’s a good thing my meeting got cancelled tomorrow because now I’m gonna have to go to IKEA instead. And it sucks! It sucks! And I just… I just wanted to buy a nice couch for my family to watch movies together. And I hate it. I hate everything. [Sobs; sighs.] Now I’m just gonna drive around with this huge, 100-pound piece of furniture in my car. I guess it’s a good thing I don’t have to drive my kids anywhere right now ‘cause their car seats aren’t in here. Oh. Guys? [Sniffs.] You’re doing a good job and I really appreciate this Hotline. This is the one place I can call and just say these things out loud without anyone trying to offer advice or solve my problems. So thank you. You’re doing a good job.
biz
You are doing… a very good job. What I appreciate about this breakdown is that it’s ephemeral. It is—we are all struggling during this pandemic. This call could have been placed—like, it’s a reminder that at any time, this kind of thing happens and it’s so fucking disappointing and frustrating and rage-inducing. And—[lost for words, turns into wild laughing]. I… I… pandemic or not, it’s fucking impossible!
theresa
Yeah. This is that “how does anyone do anything, ever” feeling. Like…
biz
I don’t know!
theresa
Yeah. All I could think, picturing you up there, seeing the return desk being closed, is like—how bad did you just want to leave that fucking thing right there on the floor and just walk away forever?
biz
Yeah. Just walk away.
theresa
Like, how bad did you want that? I wanted that for you. [Laughs.]
biz
Yeah. [Laughs.]
theresa
I mean…
biz
I wanted, actually, to take that cart and just start running through IKEA and never look back. Just—or just go sleep in their showroom for the night. Like, this is—these things come in all kind of different shapes and sizes, whether it’s the “I’m going to the grocery store and I’ve managed to successfully do all of this stuff in this small window and blah, blah, blah and I don’t have any money with me.” [Laughs.] Right? Or… “I’ve gotten us all to wherever we need to be and I don’t have diapers.” Right? Like—this is—this has just come in the shape of a couch!
theresa
Yes. It’s—and it’s too heavy.
biz
It’s too heavy!
theresa
Yeah.
biz
Biz: This is not something—yeah! Yeah! Theresa: For one person. Yeah. Yeah.
theresa
It’s way too heavy. Yeah.
biz
It is too heavy! And there’s—there’s— [Both laugh.] We both walked right into this. Like, I see every step of this? I see all the steps. I see them.
theresa
I see all the planning.
biz
All the planning.
theresa
And the way to make everything just—it’s just barely gonna work. I’m gonna do it. I’m pushing a little too hard, but I’m too tired. It’s not what I wanna be doing right now but I’m gonna do it and get it done.
biz
Mm-hm. Yeah.
theresa
Except no.
biz
Except no, you’re not. And— [Laughs.] This makes me think of that, like, Homer Simpson scene where he’s trying to put together the barbecue? [Theresa laughs.] And it just ends up—A—definitely not looking like a barbecue. But he’s just like hitting it over and over. Like, “Why! Must! Everything! Be! So! Hard!” Right? [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.] [Through laughter] This is—why does this have to be so fucking hard?
theresa
Yeah! Why is it so hard? I know.
biz
I’m… I am really sorry.
theresa
Yeah. I am, too.
biz
And like—I—we don’t even have to address… all the other stress that you are probably under at this very moment.
theresa
Most definitely. Yeah.
biz
Given all the things in the world.
theresa
Yeah.
biz
You are doing a really good job. We see you? And you are doing a very good job.
theresa
Yes, you are.
biz
Theresa? You are doing a very good job.
theresa
Thanks, Biz. So are you.
biz
Thanks! Uh… come back!
biz
Theresa: Yep! I’ll come back. Alright. Okay. Bye! [Laughs.] Biz: Okay. Cool! Great. Bye! [Laughs.]
biz
As always, saying goodbye to Theresa is hard. But what’s not hard today is talking about what we learned. Guys? I love Lisa Kenney. I love Reimagine Gender and Gender Spectrum, the two programs that she’s been involved in, and I kind of think of… Lisa and like Gender Spectrum like the Poison Control Center for all questions related to… gender identity. Like, no judgment. [Laughs.] No judgment. They’re just gonna answer your question. And that sort of like calm… matter-of-fact… nonjudgmental approach is so helpful because guys? It feels very un-normal sometimes? And the reality is it’s very normal. And the answer to that question of, “Really? Is it their chance I’ve got two kids going through this in my house?” Apparently, yes! Apparently yes. Because what’s so cool—what I’ve been trying to get my head around during all of this—is it was suddenly changing how I looked at it to realizing that… this is a gift that these kids have all this language? That I didn’t have. And that because of all this new language, they get to… sort of walk through this tween-y, teen-y, y’know, “Who am I?” process with more tools than we had. And… and expressing themselves differently and exploring gender identity in the way that they are is incredibly normal. It’s—it’s me who’s like, “What?! What are we doing? Can’t we just pick one thing and be done? Just wear all black already! Just scream that you fucking hate me and slam the door!” And this is as much a part of that? And what a gift. Again, I just can’t… imagine… having had… all of that language available to me growing up. And when I do think back on my own gender story, I’m like, “Oh. Yeah.” I—I think about all the different ways I dressed. All the different ways I walked through the world with different attitudes and different personas and different, y’know, chips on my shoulder and different everything. And it was always me trying to figure out who I was, separate from the concept of what I was born as. And so… y’know. Good job, new kids! Good job, new generations of kids getting to do this. I love it! And I also wanna say that we’re learning today to be really kind to ourselves as our kids are going through this. ‘K? I’ve already fucked it up once by using the word “phase.” So—early on. Early on. And I have definitely backtracked that. But we’re gonna fuck it up. And that’s okay. But let’s remember to be kind to ourselves as we are going through this with our kids? And… you just—y’know, I had a therapist who said, “You just don’t want to be on the opposite end of the seesaw. You wanna be in the middle of the seesaw.” ‘K? So let’s all get comfy in the middle of the seesaw. Everybody? You’re doing a remarkable job. Whether you are in an IKEA parking lot having a massive meltdown or you are working in a lab testing yet another kit to see if somebody has COVID or not. Or if you are just totally done. And are sleeping on the couch. [Laughs.] Watching a Netflix marathon. Those are all good things. You’re all doing an incredibly good job. And I see you. And we will talk to you next week. Bye!
music
“Mama Blues” by Cornbread Ted and the Butterbeans. Strumming acoustic guitar with harmonica and lyrics. _I got the lowdown momma blues_ Got the lowdown momma blues Gots the lowdown momma blues The lowdown momma blues Gots the lowdown momma blues Got the lowdown momma blues You know that’s right [Music fades somewhat, plays in background of dialogue.]
biz
We’d like to thank MaxFun; our producer, Gabe Mara; our husbands, Stefan Lawrence and Jesse Thorn; our perfect children, who provide us with inspiration to say all these horrible things; and of course, you, our listeners. To find out more about the songs you heard on today’s podcast and more about the show, please go to MaximumFun.org/onebadmother. For information about live shows, our book and press, please check out OneBadMotherPodcast.com.
theresa
One Bad Mother is a member of the Maximum Fun family of podcasts. To support the show go to MaximumFun.org/donate. [Music continues for a while before fading out.]
music
A cheerful ukulele chord.
speaker 2
Comedy and culture.
speaker 3
Artist owned—
speaker 4
—Audience supported.
About the show
One Bad Mother is a comedy podcast hosted by Biz Ellis about motherhood and how unnatural it sometimes is. We aren’t all magical vessels!
Join us every week as we deal with the thrills and embarrassments of motherhood and strive for less judging and more laughing.
Call in your geniuses and fails: 206-350-9485. For booking and guest ideas, please email onebadmother@maximumfun.org. To keep up with One Bad Mother on social media, follow @onebadmothers on Twitter and Instagram.
Get in touch with the show
onebadmother@maximumfun.org
@OneBadMothers
@onebadmothers
How to listen
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