Transcript
biz
Hi. I’m Biz.
theresa
And I’m Theresa.
biz
Due to the pandemic, we bring you One Bad Mother straight from our homes—including such interruptions as: children! Animal noises! And more! So let’s all get a little closer while we have to be so far apart. And remember—we are doing a good job.
music
“Summoning the Rawk” by Kevin MacLeod. Driving electric guitar and heavy drums. [Continues through dialogue.]
biz
This week on One Bad Mother—no one wants to listen to you, even you! We talk to Chelsea Nina Ursin about her podcast Dear Young Rocker. Plus, Biz notices something different.
crosstalk
Biz and caller: Woooo! [Both laugh.]
caller
Sorry. That wasn’t the greatest woo. I’m doing okay. I am eating lunch in my car because I am a healthcare worker who sees patients, and my children are quarantined because they had a positive exposure at their daycare. But I don’t have to be quarantined and I have to work [through laughter] [inaudible]. [Biz laughs.] That was my instruction, was to just come to work and don’t eat lunch around your coworkers, which is—we’re not, y’know, obviously supposed to be distanced and whatnot anyway. But to play it safe, I am eating in my car. It’s the last nice day in the Midwest and that’s good. Hopefully the next couple weeks will allow for car eating that isn’t so miserably cold or—yeah. Yeah. I can’t keep a straight thought today, apparently. I think my kids are gonna be fine. I’m not that worried about getting sick because of this particular instance, but things are just… not squaring up right now! And winter is coming, and we put in the hard work early when things weren’t nuts and now we obviously still have to do the hard work but it’s like it was all for nothing, because it’s truly out of control. Things are very, very, very bad here right now. But anyhow. That’s how I am. Biz, how are you? [Biz laughs.]
biz
Thank you so much for asking! But before I answer how I am, I have to tell you what an incredibly good job you are doing. And I— [Laughs.] I—there are many things about this that I thought were incredibly, like, spot-on. I love that you’re eating in your car out of respect for, y’know, the rules. And the virus. But I also—I could eat in my car all the time. To be perfectly honest. There’s lots of [through laughter] times I’m just like, “I would like to go and sit quietly in my car.” I am sorry that the kids were exposed. And I also—wow. The mantra for how many people right now is—”I just have to work until I get sick.” [Through laughter] Ha! So can I say how much I appreciate you? Especially as an essential worker? That’s—I really appreciate you. And… [sighs.] I think that’s something that’s kind of overlooked. That so many places did put in a lot of hard work to prepare for the potential for a larger outbreak in their area. And like you said, even if you prepare… a ton… it still could not be enough! In a lot of cases. Which can be disheartening. But I am just gonna say thank you for everything that you’re doing and I really appreciate you checking in! Call me back from the car. Hopefully you guys get a reprieve [through laughter] and it’s not gonna be fucking freezing cold for, like, ever right away. I also wanna say thank you to all of our essential workers. I wanna say thank you to nurses and doctors and RNs and EMTs and first responders and all medical support staff, especially those who keep those spaces clean. I’m taking Ellis in for his annual physical and I know that I can do that confidently because of how hard everybody is working in those areas. I wanna thank everyone in the food industry, from the grocery stores to distribution to farmers. And postal workers! I love you, postal workers! And teachers? Oh, I love you. I love you so much. I love you in a way that could be awkward. And I also wanna thank those who work in nursing homes and in senior centers… that’s—that’s some really dedicated and above-and-beyond work and I appreciate how much care and effort you are putting into that job. And a very big thank-you to all of those who work at food banks. Right now. There is not a place in the country that is not suffering from a food shortage in a variety of communities, because work insecurity and food insecurity is on the rise due to the pandemic. And so, y’know, don’t forget to check in on the local food banks. A lot of places have, like, Amazon wish lists. And you can just go and buy stuff that just goes directly to them. So just check that out.
biz
Now, for the really important question—how am I. Guys? Something different. [Laughs.] Happened. This year. And I wanna preface this with—I am not doing this at you. This year—during this Thanksgiving break—I could feel the change. There were times where no one needed me. Stefan cooked for like three days. And any other year, I would be so resentful and tired because I was having to, like, put in all the extra energy on Ellis, who, y’know, just needs a lot. And this year I was like—something is different! What is it? I don’t feel resentful about anything! [Laughs.] About anything, guys! Like I had… all this emotional space. The kids would be either watching something or playing something or outside or in their rooms. There were times where Stefan and I actually went on a walk during the day together! And—uhh, what? [Makes gibberish noises.] I don’t understand! It was… [Laughs.] It was awesome. It felt like such a level up. It wasn’t like… like, teen level up where the kids don’t wanna talk to you at all and ignore you? I mean, the kids still wanna show me stuff and talk to me? But there was just this weird new separation of space. Emotional space. That was happening? And I’m very proud of myself for recognizing it and I’m very proud of myself for not filling it with cleaning. The entire time. [Laughs.] So… yay for me! Y’know, what’s funny is that if you had told me—before I had kids—I would be having a conversation like this with you? I would have told you, “That is not true. I am gonna have so many boundaries when I am a parent. Just watch! My children will love playing on their own!” I… also try to imagine me, now, even going back to Biz three years ago—I think—is it four years ago where I was crying in front of Cat saying things like, [fake sobbing voice] “I’m sorry I’ve ruined Christmas! I tried to make everything perfect!” [Regular voice] And tell that version of me that it was gonna be okay. And that things would eventually work themselves out. I’m not sure I would’ve listened to that version of me. Which I think ties in nicely to what we are gonna talk about today with Chelsea Nina Ursin about her podcast, Dear Young Rocker.
music
Banjo strums; cheerful banjo music continues through dialogue.
theresa
Please—take a moment to remember: If you’re friends of the hosts of One Bad Mother, you should assume that when we talk about other moms, we’re talking about you.
biz
If you are married to the host of One Bad Mother, we definitely are talking about you.
theresa
Nothing we say constitutes professional parenting advice.
biz
Biz and Theresa’s children are brilliant, lovely, and exceedingly extraordinary.
theresa
Nothing said on this podcast about them implies otherwise. [Banjo music fades out.] [Biz and Chelsea repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss the weekly topic.]
biz
This week, we are talking to Chelsea, who is a writer, musician, and podcaster from Boston, Massachusetts. She created her podcast—Dear Young Rocker—an audio memoir and advice show for teenagers of all ages—about feeling like a loner and finding a home in music. She sings and plays bass in her grunge-pop band Banana—fucking love it!—and volunteers as a teacher and mentor at the Girls Rock Camp. [Singing] She is a cat mom to her furry son, Alaska. [Laughs.] Alaska! [Regular voice] I’ll ask ‘er and say “Thank you so much for joining us, Chelsea!”
chelsea
Yayyy! [Clapping.] Yayyy! [Biz laughs.] Thank you for having me, Biz! It’s great to be here!
biz
Well, it is nice—thank you! It’s nice to have you here. I’m gonna start by asking—who lives in your house?
chelsea
Sure. So my house is a small one-bedroom apartment. [Biz laughs.] And I share it with three males. One human, two feline. I have a boyfriend—who’s the human. My other boyfriend-slash-son is my son Alaska, and then my boyfriend’s cat, Weasel, who is giving me the death stare right now. I guess I didn’t give him enough dinner. So. That’s the roundup. And a bunch of plants.
biz
Yeah. Did the plants come with the pandemic or were you a plant person pre-pandemic?
chelsea
Okay. So I had… I had a fair amount of plants before pandemic. And then I needed more beings alone with me all day in the house and I got a few more.
biz
Yeah. Oh yeah.
chelsea
Recently.
biz
This house filled up with plants during the pandemic. Yeah. We were not plant people and then I was like, “I need more things that I can try not to kill. And that I can name.” So y’know. I like to name things. Alright. [Laughs.]
chelsea
Yeah! It’s good to watch ‘em and just—I dunno. Feel like you’re doing something good for the planet, I guess.
biz
Well, ya know, it’s good. It’s good.
crosstalk
Biz: I’m like touching one now. Chelsea: Good for the soul.
biz
It’s weird that no one can see me do this, but like, just talking plants. I’m now touching. Okay. Let’s talk about the podcast. Dear Young Rocker. Audio memoir. I would love for us to answer the question that is asked of all podcasters—or really people who create and do anything—and that is, why did you create? How did you create? Where did this come from? Podcast. [Laughs.]
chelsea
Yeah. Great. So this is always—I mean, I enjoy answering this question but I always go, [sighs] because— [Biz laughs.] —it’s a really long answer. So I mean, it’s a memoir. So it’s basically like I lived a life, so where do I start even answering this question? And then I wrote about my life. So I was born. I had some experiences. I became a young, anxious, super-self-conscious kid who was really angry and wanted to punch things and didn’t know why. And I mean, later learned ‘cause I had really bad anxiety and thought that only boys wanted to punch things but it turns out girls do, too—
crosstalk
Biz: Oh, no, girls love punching. We love punching. Chelsea:—and it’s actually normal. But—
chelsea
I thought I was a weirdo and messed up and wrong and bad for feeling that way. But I found heavy rock music and that—listening to like Linkin Park or whatever was a great release for that! And eventually I wanted to be closer to that music and so I started playing the bass guitar and the guitar. Got more into bass than the guitar, but did that for a few years. Finally got into a band in high school and that was the first time I was able to like talk to other kids. I had this—finally had this like shared language. ‘Cause I didn’t—I was super tomboy. Didn’t know how to, like, be a girl, I guess? I was super—I just felt like even if I tried to put on makeup I would do it wrong and I just didn’t even want to try. So with boys and guitars I was like, yeah. I can talk about bands. I can talk about guitars. I finally had something I felt confident in. Had this little band. Long story short, everyone wanted to date me in the band.
biz
Well, you are a woman in a band of teenagers. Yeah. That’s—I mean, not to be cliché. But. [Laughs.]
chelsea
I lived all the bass—the girl bass player cliches. I’ve lived all of them. Believe me. [Biz laughs.] So I had those experiences. Kept music through my life, but when I got to a certain age it was all like, “Oh, I need to start growing up and thinking about a career and music was just something I did in high school. Has no big thing in my life. I just play in a garage band. I’m not trying to be a famous whatever. I need to get a job. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” So I kind of pushed away music. Went to grad school. But then at some point, grad school, I just kept writing. I just kept coming back to writing about being a musician and realizing I had some sort of unfinished business there. [Biz laughs.] And I wasn’t sure what it was. I just felt really angry. That’s all I knew and I hadn’t felt that anger since I was a kid. And I was like, “I thought I left that all behind me! What am I so angry about?” And I realized I was so angry that I—I just felt so alone in what I went through, and it wasn’t the world’s most unusual experience. I, y’know, I learned about Riot Grrrl and all the stuff—not ‘til I was like, 25, 26! I didn’t know about that in high school? All I knew in high school was Nirvana and then Courtney Love ruined Nirvana. [Biz laughs.] Like, that’s all I knew.
biz
So—aka—women should not be involved in rock ‘n’ roll!
chelsea
Yeah! Yeah! [Biz laughs.] So I was the only girl in my whole school who had played music that I knew of. Maybe there were others in their bedrooms who were too shy to do it in public. I don’t know. But I just felt like there was something there. And I started journaling and journaling and writing about my band in high school. And all the stuff that happened. And then I had a thesis advisor in grad school who was like, “Oh, I love this part where you start talking to your younger self and you tell her, hey, kid, you shoulda just started a band with girls! Like, screw these guys! You have power over them! You didn’t need them!” And I was like, “Yeah. That’s a good idea.” And he said, “Why don’t you do it every chapter?” And I did it every chapter. And then I wanted to publish this book I wrote, and then I found out you can’t just publish a memoir if you’re just some kid in grad school who’s never published anything, ever. [Biz laughs.] Even though it was such a good story! [Laughs.]
biz
What?! Yeah. God, that’s unfair.
chelsea
And that pissed me off! ‘Cause I was like, this story could help teenage girls right now! Right this minute! But I can’t put it out because I am not some celebrity. Whatever. So I learned that anyone can put out a podcast.
crosstalk
Biz: Yeah! [Laughs.] Chelsea: So I said, you know what?
chelsea
I’m gonna record myself saying this book, pretty much. I mean, I had to completely change it because a chapter of a book is like two hours of speaking. But, y’know, audiobooks are so long. So I had to adapt the scripts. I added sound effects to recreate the sounds of me playing in my band. I really upped the advice component where I give advice to my younger self. I called it Dear Young Rocker because I wrote a letter to myself each episode that started with “Dear Young Rocker,” meaning, “Dear Younger Me.” And through this I just like… y’know, I had done therapy and self-help stuff for years and this just blew all of it out of the water. I just figured out kind of what I wanted to do with this, and it’s connected me to so many other people and other podcasters and creators and… yeah. It’s been awesome. And now, who knows? Maybe that book will get published someday, but now it’s a podcast.
biz
Yeah, no. It’s so good. Oh, yeah, no. It is a shame it did not start as a memoir. [Laughs.] Because—I mean, a published book! So everybody out there, listen! Listen alert! This needs to be a book. Okay. It’s interesting that you said that about kind of going back and touching on… y’know, writing these letters to yourself and touching back on previous experiences. And I wonder if… part of this process… for you… you do one season. Now you’re doing a second season. You’re writing these letters to yourself. And I wonder—have the letters changed? Has your view on who you were and your experiences changed? How does the letter-writing—the connecting with the younger you—affect how you see yourself? And does the younger you ever respond?
chelsea
I’ve just—I’ve become so much more compassionate toward teenage me. Because when I was maybe in my early twenties—I think whenever you think of the age you were a few years ago, you go, “What a stupid idiot. I can’t believe—ugh.” Y’know, but when you go back far enough—I’ve finally gotten to that point in my thirties that when I think of teenaged me, instead of thinking, like, “Why did I say that dumb thing?” I go, “I know why I said that dumb thing. Because my parents taught me to act that way. They berated my appearance so I didn’t feel comfortable being me. Like—y’know, given what you’ve got, kid, and now having learned what other people’s more well-adjusted parents kind of taught them—” [Biz laughs.] “I see exactly why you ended up the way you did. You were raised by misanthropes. No wonder you wanted to be a misanthrope so early.” So yeah. I got a lot of compassion. But also at the same time, more compassion for them because I think of them being raised by people with like the next level of that. I can’t imagine the Great Depression mindset that raised them was even more intense than what I got. So now—yeah. When I think back to that—when I started writing to the eleven-year-old, that was a crazy experience. Because I really just felt like I was talking to a kid. This, like, precious being. And I cried and cried and cried when I started doing this. Absolutely. I really broke down. Because I had… kept so much of that emotion inside, because as a kid I was just like… you can’t let anyone know you feel bad. That’s the worst thing you can do, ‘cause then your parents will feel bad that you feel bad, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And later on I knew I had anxiety early and I knew I felt depressed about things, but I always chalked it up to being an immature, overly-emotional kid. But then going back I was like, “Man. There’s a lot of reasons for those feelings and thank god I found music! Oh my god!”
biz
[Laughs.] Well I wanna talk about the music specifically. Because it’s—through both seasons, music acts not only as like a core and as a tether; it also—at times—goes away. And it seriously is used against you.
chelsea
Mm-hm.
biz
And then… like… there’s distrust of the music. There’s—I’m gonna—in season two, which covers your twenties, you do an episode about being part of a yoga cult. And… this is—this was—we could just literally spend a whole show talking about each episode of your show. [Laughs.] But we will not do that! But I do wanna talk about this one because, y’know… cults—we all know—this is about manipulating the young. It is about, y’know, separating them and all of these things. And at the end—a couple of things happened in this episode that I found interesting. But at the end of the episode, you’re talking about what you learned. And… the messages are so mixed. There’s strength that comes out of it and then there’s this great distrust that comes out of it. Even at your music! A little bit. And I kinda wanna talk about—I wanna ask you about this journey with music and… y’know, how… you were able to reconnect? With it? And trust it. Like, do you trust it? Do you trust music now? I don’t know.
chelsea
I—yeah. I still… have problems. I don’t know. I guess— [Both laugh.] It’s hard because yeah—it has sort of betrayed me—or it feels like it has. It’s like… the romance of my life is me and music. And that’s what Dear Young Rocker is about. There’s boyfriends and whatever that come and go? But the real love story of Dear Young Rocker is a girl and the bass. Or the girl and music. And… yeah. When I was younger, it was, y’know, it was the most passionate love I had ever felt. And that makes you crazy. And it makes you do dumb stuff, right? [Biz laughs.] And then at some point I just got this message from my mom—y’know, “It was cool that you were in a band in high school. That’s great. But you’re not a teenager anymore.”
biz
Oh, that email. [Laughs.]
chelsea
Y’know, like, “You gotta—” the real job thing just kept popping up and get a real apartment. You gotta stop—y’know, even when I started volunteering for Girls Rock camp. “Why are you doing all this unpaid work? You should be getting a real job.” And so I felt like, “Oh man, I wasted all these years playing music.” It felt like, “Why did I do so much with it when it just distracted me from—I don’t know—whatever I was supposed to be doing.” Being in AP classes so I could’ve gone to college earlier. I don’t know. I had all these ideas, like, “OH, I would’ve been a rocket scientist if I hadn’t been in a band.” [Biz laughs.] Even though I had good grades! I did well in school. Whatever. But I just felt like, “Oh, it distracted me from growing up” or something like that. Like, this should be immature. Y’know, this is an immature thing to keep doing when you’re 25 and keep coloring your hair pink or whatever I don’t know. [Biz laughs.] And that’s one thing I got really angry about was when I realized, that’s bullshit! Like, if I took all of that out of my life I would just—and I just got a job as—I don’t know. Like, a consultant something? [Biz laughs.] And I don’t even know. Whatever. Financial planner. And y’know? And just got rid of all my hobbies? I’d rather die! I don’t wanna just make money and—I dunno. The sixteen-year-old mindset of “I don’t just wanna be a corporate shill” came back. I was like, oh man. For a minute I thought that’s what I’m supposed to do! And so I kept seeing it in these black and white terms. Like, creative rocker or, y’know, real job person. And I could never seem to make progress on both things and they always seemed to get in the way of each other. And at some point I realized, no. Music’s just gonna be there. Even if I don’t play for six months or a year. Like what’s happening right now! I don’t know the next time I’m gonna play a show. But I feel pretty secure that like—I’m gonna. I’m gonna be a grandma rocker. Like, I’m gonna play forever. Even if it’s just in my basement with my other old lady rocker friends. Like— [Biz laughs.] That’s gonna happen forever! But with the cult thing? Yeah. I felt like music had betrayed me because the way that I really emotionally… got sucked in was that during the meditation sessions—which is—in this version of the cult, basically, you do these meditation sessions where you talk to basically your inner child. You talk to yourself. And so that is really healing and really powerful! And then they play this music—this extremely emotional—I swear they engineer this stuff for brainwashing.
biz
They do!
chelsea
This violin and piano—and it was like good playing. It wasn’t—I mean, it was kinda cheesy? But it made me cry every time they put it on. It’s like the music they put on with those commercials about abused animals that makes you cry. It’s just… y’know… so— [Biz laughs.] They would put this song on at the end of every session and me just being super affected by music, that just absolutely got me. Because—yeah. And then they did this other movement meditation where you’re kind of dancing and screaming and it’s this pounding drum, and I’m a very rhythmic person. Drums really get me. And I just wanted to like… run away from—even like, regular yoga classes after that. If they played music, I would just get like— [Biz laughs.] —grossed-out feeling! I was like, “No, I don’t—” and y’know, the—just sort of—very safe, nice, hippie yoga teacher being like, “Let’s move our bodies freely!” [Biz laughs.] I’d be like, “No!”
biz
No! [Laughs.]
chelsea
“Let’s move our bodies rigidly to a set program! Let’s not open our New Age minds ever again, please!”
biz
Well what was interesting is at the end of one of those sessions—at the end of the big session—your initiation, I suppose. Your graduation. You do have this moment where you see yourself. And… I gotta tell you—I’m sure it is intentional—but it almost felt like… well, is that you now, going back to try and talk to your younger—is it a metaphysical—like, letter. That you have like—did you listen to that person who stood in front of you and told you that you were okay? And that you were beautiful and loved?
chelsea
Whoa!
biz
I was like, “Hello!” [Laughs.]
chelsea
Wow! I didn’t think of that. That actually gives me the shivers to think about. Like, maybe that apparition I saw of me was older me trying to warn young—oh my god!
biz
I know. You’re welcome. [Laughs.]
chelsea
Maybe it’s even me after death coming down. Y’know?
biz
Could be you so far! Away. Right?
chelsea
Oh my god. Yeah.
biz
Yeah. I thought that was like such an interesting experience to have.
chelsea
It felt so real. Let me tell you. I mean—
biz
I believe it!
chelsea
And I wasn’t—as far as I know—unless they drugged the water they gave us, which—I wouldn’t put it past them but I don’t think so? They put us into this suggestive state by overexercising us. They pulled all the blinds down so we didn’t know what time of day it was, so we kind of lost sense of reality and were doing all these exercises to break us down emotionally. And so when I opened my eyes and I saw this, like, being… floating above me… it just absolutely felt real. It did not feel like a dream. It did not feel like… some image from deep within my brain or some meditation, y’know, whatever. It just—like, I felt like I could reach out and touch it. And it was me. I just knew it was me. I knew it was a part of me. And it was human-shaped and it was shaped like me and I just felt…
biz
And it loved you!
chelsea
It loved me! I just felt this overwhelming sense of love coming from it toward me, and then me loving it back! And I was like, “This is the first time I’ve ever felt what it’s like to really love yourself.” And as much as I—y’know—spent the next few years hating the people who took all my money and wanted to, like, abduct me—
biz
Oh, sure! [Laughs.]
chelsea
And killed other people. Eventually I was like, “That was an experience I wouldn’t trade!” I wouldn’t take that back! That was the most spiritual thing I’ve ever felt!
biz
Well this is the crux of the “letter to yourself” concept. Right? The—whether it is a letter to yourself or whether it is me looking at my kids. My oldest is eleven. And I see it all. Like just—all the—everything. [Makes stressed noise.] [Laughs.] Just comes rushing back. Do you know who doesn’t care? My child. [Laughs.]
chelsea
Mmm. [Laughs.] I’m sure.
biz
My child doesn’t care that I dyed my hair or that I wanted to shave it off or whatever and like…
chelsea
Yup.
biz
If I were to talk to my pre-child self—like to the—before I had kids, I’d be like, “That’s not gonna be how my life’s gonna be. You don’t know what you’re talking about. Right?” Like— [Laughs.] Or even talking to myself right now. If I were to come back and say—anything—especially as teens, when we get into this like—just developmentally we’re supposed to be pushing boundaries. We’re supposed to be exploring ourselves as independent from those around us. And… y’know… something that comes up in your stories and could come out of probably millions of diaries is this concept of—I have no one to talk to. My—I can’t tell my parents. I can’t tell my friends. I can’t tell—I have no one who I can—I am alone. And isolated. And… and then you say—maybe if I’d had a mentor. But then I think, “Well, would we have ever listened to those mentors?” And I don’t know. I mean—I don’t know if I would have.
chelsea
I remember a teacher writing on a paper, like, “You seem down. Do you ever wanna talk?” And she was like a cool teacher! And I still just was like, “I can’t talk to her. I can’t.”
biz
Yeah. Yeah. And I wonder about that. Like, I wonder about… my husband and I were talking about this before the interview, and he was like, “Y’know, but that’s just it. No one’s gonna tell you—people can tell you as much as they want. But you have to kind of walk through it.” Right? Like… you have to walk through these experiences and a lot of time they are no good. [Laughs.] A lot of times they are like—real bad. And… and you don’t wish that upon anyone! I don’t want my kids to go through any of the stuff I went through! Not even for a second. Simultaneously, I have no power over that on some level.
chelsea
Right.
biz
And so… I know people have reached out to you. Y’know, where do you see… things have to have arisen. Right? Like, in terms of what people have gone through and shared experiences. So what has the response been and… I guess, also, would we listen to ourselves if we wrote ourselves a letter, right? Like—
chelsea
Mmmm.
biz
Would young you respond? If you were like, “You know what?” Because young you does figure this stuff out! You’re here and I’m talking to you.
chelsea
Right.
biz
And even after the cult, you got there. Like, you figured out that it was not… the path you were supposed to be on.
chelsea
Right. You have to figure it out yourself. And I say that— [Biz makes various indications of rebellious dissent.] —in a lot of my letters. Like—it sucks! [Biz laughs.]
biz
Listen to your mother! [Laughs.]
chelsea
You have to walk the path and, y’know, as crappy as it is, it’s your path. It’s—I… the more and more I think about it, the more I believe in destiny and I believe in—no matter what you’re gonna do, you’re gonna do the stuff you were gonna do. I think a lot of stuff is… is just pre-written. And we have to live it. Or at least that helps me sleep, but— [Laughs.]
biz
No! No, no, no. No. [Laughs.]
chelsea
I wanna deny it. I wanna deny it. But no, I wouldn’t have listened. I wouldn’t have listened. Because—yeah. I remember a million times, my mom saying, “You can talk to me about anything. You can talk to me about anything.” But this is the thing—I knew, y’know, my parents got divorced when I was really young. I knew they were miserable. I knew they were depressed about it and upset. Whenever they talked about it they acted like life was fine. We’re gonna be a perfect nuclear family. So I… so as much as they said, “If you feel sad about the divorce, you talk to us! Talk to us about anything!” They weren’t talking about it! So I got the message that to be a grownup, you don’t say when you’re sad. You don’t say when you’re anxious. I could feel the anxiety radiating off of my mom. Like, vibrating as she’s like losing weight from being anxious. I could see her getting skinnier and skinnier. And she wouldn’t say she was sad. She wouldn’t say she was upset. And so I just had that nailed into me. Like… and I couldn’t articulate it, but I went to child therapists and I would tell them, “I am the most well-adjusted, perfect, happy—I am so happy my parents got divorced! It’s really working out! I get two sets of Christmas presents!” [Biz laughs.] “Like, it’s just—oh, look at the pictures I made!” And they were like, “She’s perfect.” And, y’know, I was good at hiding it. Because that’s what I learned to do. And so I think if—y’know—maybe if I had more open… parents? If they shared with me I woulda shared a little more with them? But at the same time I understand, they didn’t wanna put the pain of their divorce and their financial problems on a little six-year-old. Like, I get that. That’s like— [Biz laughs.] —not what you’re supposed to do! But if they had said something like, “Mom’s sad, but if you give me a hug I’ll feel better!” Maybe I coulda said, “I’m sad, too. I need a hug.” I don’t know.
biz
I don’t know. I mean, that’s just it. None of us ever know.
chelsea
I don’t know! I don’t know. I’m sure, y’know, when I have kids I’ll probably do the opposite. I’ll probably give them too much emotion and then they’ll be like— [Biz laughs.] “Ew, yuck!” Like—
biz
Oh yeah, no. You’ll definitely fuck it up. Don’t worry about that. [Laughs.]
chelsea
Right! I’ll just do the opposite. [Laughs.]
biz
Alright. This is kinda what I wanna wrap up on. You… I know that you have been getting lots of emails. And, y’know, comments from people who are very thankful— [Laughs.] That you have been doing this podcast. ‘Cause it does help them feel less alone. But I gotta ask—do you ever get somebody who’s like… “Teens are great! What are you talking about?” [Laughs.] “This is just you!” [Laughs.] [Chelsea laughs.]
chelsea
No—okay, I mean, there’s always weirdos on Apple Podcasts reviews, right? There’s always people who are like, “Why did you leave this review? Why didn’t you just stop listening to the show if you hate the premise of it?” [Biz laughs.] It’s always a man. It’s always a man who’s like, “This is feminist. I’m a man. I don’t like it.” I’m like, “So don’t listen to it!”
biz
[Through laughter] Don’t listen to it.
chelsea
I don’t listen to, like, The Bro Show and hate—y’know. Whatever. Anyway. So I think I had one, like, really lazy dumb guy review that was like, “You’re whiny about your problems, lady.” Or something. [Biz laughs.] Like…
biz
Jesus.
chelsea
Thanks.
biz
“Go take something for your period. Yuck! I don’t wanna hear about emotions! Blech!”
chelsea
Right. Yeah. I’m sure he’s cool to hang out with.
biz
I’ll bet he’s cool. He’s probably really cool. [Laughs.]
chelsea
But no. I’ve gotten such good—oh my god, I’ve gotten such wonderful messages. I mean the whole goal of a memoir—as whiny as it can feel to write about yourself? [Biz laughs.] The whole point is to show that we’re all humans and we have the same emotions. So when I get messages I always get these messages from like… middle-aged men. They always start with “I’m a middle-aged man, but—” I probably have a hundred.
crosstalk
Chelsea: “I’m a sixty-year-old man; I’m a fifty-four-year-old—but I can’t believe how similar I felt to you in high school!” Biz: “But I have emotions and feelings.” [Laughs.]
chelsea
“Like, I loved rock bands and I started playing the guitar with my buddies or whatever it was. I can’t believe you had the same social anxiety and the same anger and the same frustrations.” And that’s always cool that I’m like opening minds. And the best is when those guys say “And I have a thirteen-year-old daughter and I just realized for the first time she’s going through what I went through.” And they probably just felt like they were living with—I hear from dads. They feel like they’re living with this alien. Like they have no idea how to conceptualize a young girl’s mind and what she deals with at school and how it feels to deal with boys. And a lot of dads are terrified of their daughter starting to experience boys. And… they say like, “Your show helped me so much to understand from what their perspective might be. Because she won’t talk to me.” Right? “She won’t let me in.” And then some even say “I listened with my kid and we talked about stuff,” and that’s when my heart just like melts. Like I—that’s worth a billion dollars. Like I—ugh. It’s amazing.
biz
No, it’s—well, I’m glad. That you get those comments. Because it is… it is a wonderful reminder that we are not alone? And that anything you’re going through, there’s a good chance somebody else went through it and is going through it. And while not all experiences can be exactly the same, there are some universal feelings— [Laughs.] That we have. And… I—I—love that. I love that dads are listening with their daughters. ‘Cause I think it’s—it is easy to see… even see people who are right in front of us as one-dimensional. Right? Or sort of a stereotype. And it’s—
chelsea
Or just a mystery!
biz
Or just a mystery! And it’s good when we can break that. Right? Just chop that up! Break it up! Well, I recommend Dear Young Rocker. ‘Cause it’s such a journey—not only for yourself—but also for me, I’m like, “Ohh, I remember this. This is—wow. Wowwww!” And then as like a mom, too, I’m like, “Oh god! No! Baby girl, you just call! You pick that phone up and you call me right this minute! We will come get you and we will ask no questions and we will not yell and we will just come.” [Laughs.] So thank you for making this podcast and sharing your memoir with everybody in this manner. The production is excellent. The writing is unbelievable. And the experiences are so shared. And touching. So we will make sure everybody knows how to get that podcast. If you’re listening to a podcast, you know how to get a podcast. [Chelsea laughs.] Dear Young Rocker. Thank you so much, Chelsea! Thank you. I really appreciate it.
chelsea
Thank you for the kind words. This has been really fun.
biz
Well you’re doing a really good job. [Both laugh.]
chelsea
Thank you. [Laughs.]
biz
Absolutely. Have a good one.
chelsea
Okay, you too!
music
“Ones and Zeroes” by “Awesome.” Steady, driving electric guitar with drum and woodwinds. [Music fades out.]
music
Cheerful ukulele with whistling plays in background.
theresa
One Bad Mother is supported in part by Calm. 2020 has been a lot. And we could all benefit from less stress and more sleep in our lives. It’s so important to take care of ourselves and invest in our well-being during times of anxiety.
biz
Calm is an app that provides a whole library of programs for healthy sleep, as well as guided meditations and soundscapes and sleep stories and I have had Calm since long before the pandemic. Because my brain could not stop and I didn’t know how to walk through a meditation on my own. Or just have time—I used to listen to this in car line? I would do their, like, ten-minute daily affirmation meditations in car line when you’re just parked? Before car line ever starts moving?
theresa
That is so genius. For listeners of the show, Calm is offering a special, limited-time promotion of 40% off a Calm premium subscription. At Calm.com/badmother. That’s 40% off unlimited access to Calm’s entire library, and new content is added every week! So get started today at Calm.com/badmother. That’s Calm.com/badmother. [Music fades out.]
theresa
Hey, you know what it’s time for! This week’s genius and fails! This is the part of the show where we share our genius moment of the week, as well as our failures, and feel better about ourselves by hearing yours. You can share some of your own by calling 206-350-9485. That’s 206-350-9485.
biz
Genius fail time. [Scatting] Boot-doo-boo-doo-doo-boo! Theresa? Genius me.
clip
[Dramatic, swelling music in background.] Biz: Wow! Oh my God! Oh my God! I saw what you did! Oh my God! I’m paying attention! Wow! You, mom, are a genius. Oh my God, that’s fucking genius! [Biz and Theresa repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss their respective genius moments of the week.]
theresa
Okay. [Biz laughs.] I love the low bar genius moments. I am just… living for them right now. So yesterday we have—y’know, we have the ongoing problem of the kids play with Legos and inevitably the three-year-old messes up somebody’s thing that they’ve been working painstakingly on for days. So that’s an ongoing background thing to be aware of. Then another thing we have going on is Oscar—my seven-year-old who loves Minecraft—also now loves Star Wars and I got him the Star Wars pack for Minecraft? And he’s so happy with it? [Biz laughs.] That it’s just—it’s so sweet. Like, he’s so delighted when he gets to go play. Like he’s just thrilled and he’s talking about it when he’s not playing it and it’s just bringing him so much joy. And yesterday I had this genius moment where Curtis, my three-year-old, was screwing around with Oscar’s Legos that he had—just a very nice thing that Oscar had put together. And I didn’t realize it in time and it all came totally apart, to the point where it was like completely apart. Like, completely. There’s no “I can help him put this back together.” No. It was totally apart. And Oscar hadn’t noticed that this was happening because he was playing his beloved Star Wars Minecraft game. And I thought to myself, “Well, this will be fun later when it’s both time to turn off the iPad and first thing he’s gonna see is that this has happened.” [Biz laughs.] “Great. Well, we’ll cross that bridge when we come to it.” And then—small light bulb! Soft, soft-glow lightbulb. “Why don’t I just interrupt him right now while he’s playing and really happy because he has lots more time ahead of him—of his screen time—and tell him about it now? When nothing can get him down because he’s living in his dream world?” [Biz laughs.] And I was like, “Could this break badly? It could, possibly. But I actually think it’ll be great.” I had to deal with it right then rather than kicking the can down the road, but I just went for it. I said, “Excuse me, Oscar.” [Biz laughs.] “I’m so sorry.” And I held up in my hands the—all of the pieces. And said, “This… this has happened. I’m so sorry. I wanted you to know.” And sure enough, he said, “Oh. Okay, mom. Yeah. Mm-hm. Alright.” And then he [through laughter] went back to his game! And truly, like… had—like, somehow processed it enough that later there was never screaming about it. We did talk about it later and we did, like, whatever? But there was no freak out. And I just feel like I saved myself from that.
biz
Good job!
theresa
Yeah.
biz
Good job using all the tools available to you. [Laughs.]
theresa
Thank you. [Laughs.]
biz
I think that is genius. Very good. My genius—it’s not my genius. I am going to give a special genius shoutout to my big sister.
theresa
Aww!
biz
Helen Michelle! Who listens to the podcast and had noted that I was a little worried about what to do for Thanksgiving with the family. And she and Lex sent out an email inviting us and the folks to a scavenger hunt! Where they would be the judges, and they gave us all—we needed costumes. We needed team names. We needed a cheer. You got bonus points for those things, plus bonus points for complimenting the judges. And I will say that this family won on praising the judges. That is how we won.
theresa
I can see that. That’s great.
biz
But y’know, the scavenger items were like—something from the 1970s. Something Donald Trump would hate. Something that starts with a “Q.” Something from someone else’s yard. Right? And then you would present them all at the same time.
theresa
So good!
biz
And it was so much fun. Andi could not stop laughing at what my parents had selected for all of these. Mama went to that neighbor’s yard and stole that goat. I know exactly—she holds it up and I was just like, “Holy shit! You’ve got it!” There was like, y’know, the team names were so—it was definitely one of those moments where I was like, “I’m getting to see my family at their finest.” Right? Like, this is why—
theresa
Yeah, it’s real! That’s like a real family experience together!
crosstalk
Biz: Yeah. It was so good. And— Theresa: That’s amazing. Yeah.
biz
I will say—actually, there is a side genius. That morning I said to the kids—who had already been super snitty and like, “Rawr, rawr, rawr, rawr, rawr!” Right? I was like, “Hey, guys. Today this is what’s happening. Blah, blah, blah; blah, blah, blah. And we’ll be doing this Zoom with my family. And this is really important to me. Very important. And it would mean a great deal if people didn’t get mad. Or lose their temper. Over things that… really aren’t important or if they feel that enough attention is not being paid to them at that moment or if they wanted to be in front of the camera longer or if they wanted another turn. That will make me really sad.” [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.] But I said, “How can—"
theresa
This is your genius! This is your genius! Yeah.
biz
Yeah! I was like—I set some good boundaries. And I said, y’know, “I need you guys to do this. And how can we make this the best? Can we pre-think things? Can we—” And they were at their best! Like, there was—
theresa
Wow.
biz
‘Cause I mean, Ellis usually like five minutes on just starts screaming about something. And I was like, “You are a charming, adorable, hilarious child! How come they only see you screaming?” Right? Like—so it was very good! [Laughs.]
theresa
I’m so happy for you. Good job.
biz
Yes. Good job. Especially Helen Michelle! Thank you!
theresa
Yes. [Biz laughs.]
caller
[Answering machine beeps.] Hi, Biz and Theresa! I am calling with a genius. It started as a fail because I was taking my two toddlers to the grocery store with just all of the masks and the hand sanitizer and it’s just such a struggle. And then I dropped my quarter that I use to release the cart into my coffee. Which I had just reheated because I couldn’t even drink it when it was hot this morning. Anyway. I dropped my quarter in the coffee and it really sucked. But we made it through the shopping trip. I came home. I poured myself a mimosa— [Biz laughs.] —and then I remembered to take the quarter out of my coffee before I dumped the coffee down the sink, therefore saving my garbage disposal. And that, I think, is just such a genius! So I wanted to share it with you, because nobody else cares. But I know you guys do. Thank you for the show and all that you do, and thank you to all the essential people and everyone and we are all doing such a great job.
biz
You are doing a great job.
theresa
Yeah, you are.
biz
I mean, the genius is remembering that dumb quarter, that—where do you live that they’ve gotta lock up the grocery carts? [Laughs.]
theresa
Oh, they have that in San Francisco. Yeah.
biz
Do they?
theresa
Yeah!
biz
That is—be free, grocery carts! Be free! [Laughs.]
theresa
Uh, cut to ten minutes later. They’re all gone. [Laughs.]
biz
Yeah. They’re all gone. Yeah. I know. Alright. Fine. Fair enough. [Laughs.] Fair enough. We might’ve had an abandoned grocery cart in our backyard for a while. Anyway! [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.] Anyhoo. You are correct that the genius in that sea of awful was remembering that quarter. That you could’ve either dumped down the garbage disposal or better yet, put in the microwave and re-warmed up again.
theresa
Oooh. Ughhh.
biz
Yeah!
theresa
Yeah. I gotta add, the buried genius is you went grocery shopping with two toddlers during COVID. That’s hard!
biz
You survived that, yeah!
theresa
That’s really hard! I’m really impressed that you did that.
biz
Yes. That is a thing that you did. That is hard. [Laughs.]
theresa
Really stressful and hard!
biz
Not even during COVID is it a good idea! [Laughs.]
theresa
Yeah! It’s so hard! It’s so hard—it’s hard with one!
biz
We should be like outside of grocery stores and whenever you see somebody coming out with kids and groceries—just—yeah!
theresa
They should have the ribbon? Like the finish line ribbon? [Biz laughs.] They run through the ribbon?
biz
Oooh! Hoo hoo! Yes. [Theresa laughs.] Sounds like a new weekend project for me! Just—“Quick! You grab one end of the banner, Theresa!” [Both laugh.] You’re doing a very good job.
theresa
Yes, you are.
biz
Failures.
clip
[Dramatic orchestral music plays in the background.] Theresa: [In a voice akin to the Wicked Witch of the West] Fail. Fail. Fail. FAIL! [Timpani with foot pedal engaged for humorous effect.] Biz: [Calmly] You suck! [Biz and Theresa repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss their respective failures of the week.]
biz
Fail me, Theresa.
theresa
Curtis, my three-year-old, uses a—one of those potty chairs at home. Most of the time. [Biz laughs.] And… [Theresa laughs.]
biz
[Laughs.] Sorry.
theresa
Y’know, this is my third kid. Third time using this potty chair. I’m very—I don’t even really think about it when I’m dumping the pee in the toilet. Giving it a rinse in the sink. Dumping that water in the toilet, and then putting it back in the seat. And I was [through laughter] doing this the other night after he had peed. I think it was pee. And— [Biz laughs.] —Oscar was brushing his teeth in the sink and I was like, “Excuse me.” Just not even thinking that that’s kind of rude to rinse it? Like, right in front of the person who’s using the sink?
crosstalk
Biz: Rinse the toilet. Yeah. Theresa: It’s a small—
theresa
It’s a small bathroom. Small sink. Very close quarters. And I was just rushing. Trying to get people ready for bed, whatever. “’Scuse me, coming through.” Like, potty chair. Whatever. And he’s like, “Ugh! Ugh, Mom!” [Biz laughs.] And I lift it—after I dumped the water… I think it was at that stage—at some point I lifted it up over his head. Either getting to or from the sink? And some drips of water—not pee!
crosstalk
Biz: Sure. Water. Doesn’t matter. Sure. Theresa. But water. But water that was—
theresa
I mean, it’s contaminated water for sure. But it was mostly water. Just dripped off the chair onto Oscar’s head? [Laughs.] And he totally—like, it was enough that he totally felt it and was appalled. Like, he couldn’t—I mean, anybody would be. But it was so gross. And I was like—and I’m like, “Oh, it’s just water! It’s just water!” I’m like, “It’s just water!” And I did! I tried to dab it and clean it. “It’s just water.” And he’s looking at me like he sees the potty chair in my hand. He’s like, “Mom, that’s disgusting!” He was horrified. And I was also horrified at myself.
biz
Do you think it would have been helpful to dry it off with toilet paper or would that have made it feel even more like pee?
theresa
[Through laughter] With toilet paper! Yes!
biz
Right? You’re trying to find something to grab it to dry it off with?
crosstalk
Biz: Ah! It’s toilet paper! Theresa: Yes! And instead of like a dish towel—
theresa
Well, I don’t want to get my dish towels dirty on his head, so I’ll use toilet paper. That’s more—
biz
Not my body towel! Yuck! [Laughs.] Wow. That… that was flawless. That was a flawless fail.
theresa
Thank you.
biz
It was really very good. I like a low bar as much as the next person. I embrace it. I embrace the screen time and the TV time and the Switch time and the—let’s do it!
theresa
Get through the day!
biz
Let’s get through a day. But! I will say… there does come a moment where you think—maybe this is too much. Maybe… the experts are… a little right? About it affecting attitudes?
theresa
Mmmm.
biz
In the house. And I think I would care less about that if our screens were anywhere else other than the den, which is also our dining room which is also the kitchen. So there’s nowhere to go as an adult. During their screen time. Not really. If you have to cook or if you have to—right? And so you have to hear all the noise of the screen time. Plus all the, like, shitty, snitty, back-and-forth, bickering, which just—which just brings me right to that place of, “Oh, ho ho! You wanna see—” [Laughs.] You know what I mean. “You wanna see this? You wanna see how unhappy you’ll be if I take this all away?! This doesn’t look like you’re having much fun kids.” Right?
theresa
“It would be so easy for me to just turn this off!”
biz
“Watch this! Mama’s gonna play the mama card! Watch out!” Yeah. Y’know. But you’re just watching ‘em get stressed out playing it but you know if you pull the plug right in the middle of the stress that’s gonna go so bad. And then you just get to spend the rest of your time doubting every choice you’ve ever made as a parent. Probably as a person. So… yayyy! Holidays. Yayyy! Pandemic life. Yayyy! [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.] All of us together. All the time.
theresa
Yeah. And by “yayyy” you mean tears. Right?
biz
Yeah. By “Yayyy” I mean rage. Deep sadness. Anger. And… maybe some self-reflection of all the time that I’m on the Switch! Maybe. Maybe. [Theresa laughs.]
theresa
I’m sorry.
biz
Yeah. It’s alright.
theresa
Yeah.
biz
Thank god Christmas is coming and I can get more games!
theresa
I know. [Laughs.] [Biz laughs.]
caller
[Answering machine beeps.] Hi. This is a fail. My four-year-old just told me to stop saying “I’m sorry.” [Laughs.] And it was just a reminder of how many times I feel like I have screwed up today. I have a kindergartener who’s in hybrid, and a four-year-old, and it’s a lot? [Laughs.] And I feel like it’s—I’m doing it wrong all the time and apparently I’m apologizing to them a lot. [Biz laughs.]
biz
Baby.
caller
So… yeah. I guess I’m failing by having to say I’m sorry to my kids all day. Thanks for telling me I’m doing a great job.
biz
You… actually are doing a good job. I’m just gonna sneak that in there?
theresa
Yeah. Let’s sneak that in there.
biz
I wanna sneak that in.
theresa
It’s key. Yeah.
biz
Because the apology thing is a fail! On its own. Like, this is—I have been through this myself. It’s—it’s—it comes in many forms, be it the apology. “I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry.” Or… “If it’s okay, right? If it’s okay if I do this?” Or “God, I’m sorry. That was so stupid.” Right? Like, “I don’t wanna be an asshole I’m so sorry.” Like… we can find ways to work in a negative language that we think is sort—I remember—and I know I’ve shared this story before. But I remember a friend of mine turning to me one day, saying, “Stop calling yourself an asshole. Because you’re not.” And it had become such a habit to just sort of say that in a toss-off kind of way? And… I was like, “Oh. Yeah.” And so… the fail is kind of getting trapped in that cycle of a negative language? And it is hard. This is all hard and impossible and we’re all like… fucking up. A lot. We’re also succeeding. A lot. Right? Let’s done, like—don’t let the secret out. Keep that secret, right? Stop apologizing for that stuff! Just—I don’t know. Maybe. Y’know, I—yeah.
theresa
No! I like that. I think—I’m so curious about this, too, ‘cause I think I’ve been apologizing more, but I think it’s more—it’s not so much that I feel I’m screwing up? It’s that I just feel sorry for my kids. [Biz laughs.] That this is their—just the same way I feel sorry for myself sometimes! Like, I’m just like—and I think it is still not the best. Because it’s like, “Come on. We’re all pulling up our pants—or skirts or whatever you wanna wear—and we’re doing it.” And so… whatever. But I do—I feel that feeling too and I think it is just coming from that place of mom guilt where we feel somehow responsible for everything about our kids’ lives? Which is just not accurate at all. Like…
biz
No.
theresa
There’s just so much of our kids’ lives that is out of our control. And somehow—
biz
Despite what we— [Laughs.] Have been told!
theresa
Yeah! Despite what we’ve been told. Yeah. We’ve been told that if we work hard, y’know, our kids will have—whatever.
biz
Whatever.
theresa
Point being, you’re not alone. That does suck.
biz
Yeah.
theresa
You’re not alone. We’re all doing it. We’re all failing in this way.
biz
And I’m sorry that you’re failing. [Both laugh.]
theresa
I am, too. [Biz laughs.]
music
“Mom Song” by Adira Amram. Mellow piano music with lyrics. You are the greatest mom I’ve ever known. I love you, I love you. When I have a problem, I call you on the phone. I love you, I love you. [Music fades out.]
music
Inspirational music plays in background.
theresa
One Bad Mother is supported in part by Dipsea. Need to unwind after a long day of Zoom calls? Looking for some new self-care ideas, or maybe you’re just looking for a way to get out of a funk and start feeling like yourself again. Reset and reconnect with yourself with Dipsea!
biz
Oh, let me tell you—Dipsea has helped me reconnect in the most helpful and delightful of ways. Because Dipsea is an audio app full of short, sexy stories designed to turn you on. Guys? Mama needed a little self-care. On went my headphones and many Dipsea stories later, I, uh… you could say… I had gotten in touch with myself again. [Theresa laughs.]
theresa
[Through laughter] For listeners of the show, Dipsea is offering a 30-day free trial when you go to DipseaStories.com/badmother. That’s a 30-day free trial when you go to D-I-P-S-E-AStories.com/badmother. DipseaStories.com/badmother.
promo
Music: Upbeat, fun music. Emily Heller: Does our podcast deep-dive into the weirdest Wikipedia pages we can find? Lisa Hanawalt: Yeees! Do we learn about scam artists, remote islands, horrible mascots, beautiful diseases, and mythical monsters? Emily: Yes, yes, yes, absolutely, and yes! Do we retain any of this knowledge? Emily & Lisa: Eeeeh? Lisa: Probably not. Emily: I’m Emily Heller. Lisa: I’m Lisa Hanawalt. Emily: We make art! And comedy. And TV shows. And also the podcast Baby Geniuses. For the past eight years, we’ve been trying to learn new things about the world and each other every episode. Lisa: But let’s be honest, this podcast is mostly about two friends hanging out, shooting the breeze, and making each other laugh. We’re horny. We like gardening and horses. And we get real stupid on here. Emily: But, like, in a smart way! Lisa: Yeah. Emily: Join us! Every other week on Maximum Fun. Music: Baby Geniuses, tell us something we don’t know! [Music ends.]
promo
[Radio interference followed by laidback music with a snare drum beat. A phone rings as the DJ speaks.] Radio DJ: Welcome back to Fireside Chat on KMAX. With me in-studio to take your calls is the dopest duo on the West Coast, Oliver Wang and Morgan Rhodes. [Click.] Go ahead, caller. Caller: Hey. Uh, I’m looking for a music podcast that’s insightful and thoughtful, but like, also helps me discover artists and albums that I’ve never heard of. Morgan Rhodes: Yeah, man. Sounds like you need to listen to Heat Rocks. Every week, myself—and I’m Morgan Rhodes—and my co-host here, Oliver Wang, talk to influential guests about a canonical album that has changed their lives. Oliver Wang: Guests like Moby, Open Mike Eagle, talk about albums by Prince, Joni Mitchell, and so much more. Caller: Yooo! What’s that show called again? Morgan: Heat Rocks. Deep dives into hot records. Oliver: Every Thursday on Maximum Fun. [Music suddenly gives way to static and a dial tone.]
biz
Alright, everybody. Pull up your warmest blanket. Get your hot cocoa. And join me as I snuggle next to Theresa through Zoom. And listen to a mom have a breakdown.
caller
[Answering machine beeps.] Hi. This is a rant. Feels particularly unfair during a pandemic to be an introverted parent. With an extroverted child. And I vaguely recall that you did a podcast on this exact topic. I am so burnt out on social interaction right now. And my toddler has insisted on trying to rope me into every activity that he has done for the last several hours. And I am buying basically any minute that I can? Right now I have to go get his stuffed animals ready for bed. SO I shut the door and left him in there and I’m getting his stuffed animals ready for bed so that I could make this phone call in silence. Because my brain is fried and I would like to not interact with any other humans right now. Although I suppose I am calling you, so I don’t know what that says. Oh, anyway. You know what? I did a great job ‘cause I survived today and I didn’t lose my mind too much, y’know? So thanks for the Hotline. Bye.
biz
You are doing a good job. And I kind of feel like maybe we should never keep a chart, but there’s something to be said about not losing much of our mind each day. Right? Like—‘cause I don’t think we ever lose it all at once. But, eh, it’s getting chipped away at a little bit, guys.
theresa
Chipped away. Yep.
crosstalk
Biz: Chip away! Chip away. Theresa: Chipped away.
theresa
Occasionally there’s a day where you patch it back a little bit? That part’s easier to chip away the next day.
biz
Oh yeah. It’s like when you think you’ve plastered over the hole in the wall and then like a year later you’re like, “I’m gonna hang this picture here. Hammer? Fallout!” Anyway.
theresa
Crumble.
biz
You—you’re actually doing an amazing job and I’m really actually glad that you called because… this is true. This is true. We have talked about this on the show. In fact, we talked about it recently with our partners needing different amounts of space and quiet time and this is true of our kids and I think there’s just this weird… un… proven… like, assumption that when you have kids, you’ll never be filled with too much. Right? Y’know what I mean? Let’s say you’re an introvert. Yeah. But you have kids. That’s not the same. [Laughs.] Like, somehow that won’t affect you the same as maybe a crowded work area. Right? Like, it’s—
theresa
But it’s not the same! But it’s still… a hurdle. Like, a major hurdle. Yeah. Yeah.
biz
That’s right! There’s still—you still require a certain amount of alone and quiet time. Everybody does.
theresa
And it’s not even introvert vs extrovert, I think. I think it’s also just—like, I have this moment multiple times a day where—even just one of my kids talking to me while I’m trying to have my own thought? It almost like hurts. Like, it’s almost painful ‘cause I’m trying to figure something out. Usually it’s about what’s going to happen the next day or something. Like, ‘cause I’m trying to figure out a scheduling thing or I’m trying to respond to an email in my head or… just like—I’m thinking about something in my own brain!
biz
What?! God.
theresa
And then there’s in—I know. And then there’s incoming… words. That… the person will be truly crushed if I don’t immediately engage with. It really takes such a toll. [Laughs.] I mean, it really does! And it takes so much energy to go, like, “Okay. I’m gonna set aside the thoughts. Gonna do this later. I’m gonna listen to what the kid’s saying. I’m gonna be there for them.” Or to decide, “I really have to do this other thing now” and then it’s like, “I have my own thing. I have my own thing. I have my own thing. Hold on.” And then everybody’s upset. You’re interrupted anyway. It’s really hard. Really, really hard. And I mean, I don’t know that I’m a full—I don’t think I’m an introvert. I don’t think I’d be doing this show if I was an introvert. [Biz laughs.] But I definitely have that sensation every day with kids. That I’m like, oh, it’s just so much coming at me all the time. It’s just so much. And it was like that even before the pandemic! But with everybody being home all the time, there’s no break.
biz
The end. There’s no break.
theresa
There’s no break.
biz
Yeah, no. I agree. Even—there is no question I’m an extrovert. And it— [Laughs.] What?! And I think what I discovered I valued a great deal once kids got in my house was that quiet? Was that space? Was that, like, recharge area? And… y’know, add onto that a—[sighs]. A need that is so much greater as an introvert for that. It—that’s a really hard place to be. And you’re actually doing a remarkable job of carving out the space wherever you can and acknowledging it. I mean that. It is really hard. [Sighs.] It’s hard. And you’re doing… a very good job. And you are completely entitled to feel, like… like, that that is too much? Right? Yeah. Just—ooh. It’s okay if your kid’s making you crazy. For a little bit. Right? We don’t have to feel bad for that and it doesn’t mean we don’t also love. We get to be both! Yayyy!
theresa
Yep. Hooray.
biz
And you’re doing a good job of being both.
theresa
Yep.
biz
Theresa? You are also doing a good job of being many things. You are multiple things all at once.
crosstalk
Biz: Don’t know if you’re aware of that. But you are. Theresa: I really am. I am. I’m—
theresa
I’m multifaceted.
biz
You— [Laughs.] You are multifaceted. Yes.
theresa
So are you, Biz.
biz
Thanks! Thanks. I am. I think you’re wonderful and I appreciate you and I’m thankful for you and… I can’t wait to sneak in as much holiday talk with you over the next couple of weeks during our little time together. The holidays are coming. That’s all. [Theresa laughs.]
theresa
Same. [Laughs.]
biz
But I am gonna make you some fudge! [Theresa gasps.] Oooooh!
theresa
That’s thrilling, as you know. I don’t even need to tell you. It’s my favorite thing. I try not to mention it too much ‘cause I don’t wanna pressure you.
biz
Yeah, but I’m making Theresa fudge, everybody. Nobody panic. Alright?
theresa
Just make sure it’s gluten-free this year.
biz
Oh, so full of gluten! [Laughs.] Is this—is this marshmallow crème or gluten? I don’t know! Anyway. Oh no! Theresa! We’ll have to talk about that later.
theresa
Yeah. We’ll talk about it later. I’m getting itchy just thinking about the wheat.
biz
[Laughs.] Oh, god! Well, I’ve done a successful job of saying goodbye to Theresa on this week’s show. [Theresa laughs.] Theresa? I love you.
theresa
[Through laughter] I love you, too.
biz
I’ll talk to you later. [Laughs.]
theresa
Okay. Bye. [Laughs.]
biz
Bye. Ohhh! Saying goodbye to Theresa is always hard. Just as it is to say goodbye to wonderful guests. What did we learn today, everybody? Well, we learned that Dear Young Rocker is excellent. It is… such a good podcast. It is… so helpful for those of us of a certain age to sometimes be reminded of what our—what our youth was like. And it is helpful for—I think—everybody. In just emphasizing that thing that we emphasize here all the time, which is—you’re not alone. And… I know that as a kid I was really lucky. I had parents who told me, y’know, that there was nothing I could do that would make them stop loving me. And I wasn’t supposed to be afraid of furniture. And that I could do anything I wanted and like little things like this. Like that furniture thing plays a—that’s a big deal, right? To not—it represents… overall, this idea of… you deserve to be in a space. And… you can walk through the world without worrying that you’re gonna get in trouble for everything. And even with all that—and even trying to mirror that in my own parenting—still listening and still, like, listening to Chelsea’s podcast and the experiences that she was having and remembering my own experiences, I still—I still worry. And I still wonder—am I saying enough? How can I make sure that they know I really will come get them? I really will not yell. I really will say nothing. Right? I guess it’s just saying that to them every day. [Laughs.] [Inaudible] over and over. “Just so you know, I will always come get you. Do not worry. I will never get mad. You have to tell me.” Regardless, I am constantly going to be freaked out and when my kids are really teens I don’t think it’s gonna be as funny as I thought it was going to be. [Laughs.] I just want doors slammed! That’s it! [Laughs.] I just wanna be told to fuck off once or twice and that be it for the day and then everybody just grows up super well-adjusted. Not what it’s gonna be like. We also learned that we are still so thankful for all of you who are out there, putting in all the essential work. The pandemic is—not only is it still here, it is very, very bad. COVID fatigue really throws me off balance when I then also think about what’s actually happening now in terms of the pandemic numbers rising and rising. [Mocking voice] But then I’m so tired! I don’t wanna pay attention to that! [Regular voice] Like, it’s such a weird place to be and it’s getting cold and there’s just a lot. Happening. And… there’s still not a lot of good solutions for our kids and school and therefore for us when it comes to work and how to make those things balance and we are all still really missing the people that we love. And… cannot see. And I just want to say—you’re doing an amazing job! Because these are not the best of circumstances. Right? Like, if it was the best of circumstances, y’know, having kids in your house? It’s still hard. It’s really hard. But right now, you’re doing it with both hands tied behind your back. On a pogo stick. In heels. Y’know. On pudding. I don’t know. Lots of difficult things are happening, is what I’m trying to say! And you’re fucking amazing! Like, you really are doing a remarkable job! And I see you. Let’s go out and see each other. And… I will talk to you next week. Bye!
music
“Mama Blues” by Cornbread Ted and the Butterbeans. Strumming acoustic guitar with harmonica and lyrics. _I got the lowdown momma blues_ Got the lowdown momma blues Gots the lowdown momma blues The lowdown momma blues Gots the lowdown momma blues Got the lowdown momma blues You know that’s right [Music fades somewhat, plays in background of dialogue.]
biz
We’d like to thank MaxFun; our producer, Gabe Mara; our husbands, Stefan Lawrence and Jesse Thorn; our perfect children, who provide us with inspiration to say all these horrible things; and of course, you, our listeners. To find out more about the songs you heard on today’s podcast and more about the show, please go to MaximumFun.org/onebadmother. For information about live shows, our book and press, please check out OneBadMotherPodcast.com.
theresa
One Bad Mother is a member of the Maximum Fun family of podcasts. To support the show go to MaximumFun.org/donate. [Music continues for a while before fading out.]
music
A cheerful ukulele chord.
speaker 2
Comedy and culture.
speaker 3
Artist owned—
speaker 4
—Audience supported.
About the show
One Bad Mother is a comedy podcast hosted by Biz Ellis about motherhood and how unnatural it sometimes is. We aren’t all magical vessels!
Join us every week as we deal with the thrills and embarrassments of motherhood and strive for less judging and more laughing.
Call in your geniuses and fails: 206-350-9485. For booking and guest ideas, please email onebadmother@maximumfun.org. To keep up with One Bad Mother on social media, follow @onebadmothers on Twitter and Instagram.
Get in touch with the show
onebadmother@maximumfun.org
@OneBadMothers
@onebadmothers
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