TRANSCRIPT One Bad Mother Ep. 376: If You Are Handing Out Unfair Standards For Women, Make Mine A Double with Hannah Rosenzweig and Wendy Sachs

Biz talks about the importance of diversity in people who run for office and the double standards that women, specifically, face. Surprise! That woman knows she has kids, you don’t have to ask her how she plans to juggle it all. We talk to the directors of the new documentary Surge, about women running for office, plus Biz discovers a gaping hole.

Podcast: One Bad Mother

Episode number: 376

Guests: Hannah Rosenzweig Wendy Sachs

Transcript

biz ellis

Hi. I’m Biz.

theresa thorn

And I’m Theresa.

biz

Due to the pandemic, we bring you One Bad Mother straight from our homes—including such interruptions as: children! Animal noises! And more! So let’s all get a little closer while we have to be so far apart. And remember—we are doing a good job.

music

“Summoning the Rawk” by Kevin MacLeod. Driving electric guitar and heavy drums. [Continues through dialogue.]

biz

This week on One Bad Mother—if you’re handing out unfair standards for women, make mine a double! We talk to the directors of the new documentary Surge, about women running for office. Plus, Biz discovers a gaping hole.

crosstalk

Biz and caller: Woooo! Caller: Woo woo! Biz: Woo woo!

caller

Hey, lovely people. I am calling from a Target parking lot. I feel like a person. I feel like a Self. This is my first time at Target since the world went to shit, and I am so excited. I’m so proud of myself for taking the time to be a self. I am complimenting my partner, who I have really helped out recently for—he has some really creepy stuff going on at work and I really mom’d up and took over a lot. So he told me I could do what I wanted this afternoon, and he is taking over parenting duties. So I am going to Target. And then I’m gonna get a pumpkin spice latte, because I’m that kind of person. [Biz laughs.] And I am so excited and it’s fall and it’s beautiful and for this brief moment, I am going to try to forget that the world’s on fire. Quite literally. Love you all! Bye.

biz

Ahhh. Know thyself! [Laughs.] That’s what I like about you! You—I like that you’re like, “I am the person who gets the pumpkin spice latte. I will do it.” Also, that is a good check-in. I—I feel like we should have a special show in which I just try to compile all the calls from the Target parking lot. Right? Like— [Laughs.] Like—this is—this might be the parenting version of a park nowadays. Just, “I’m at Target.” You just go in and you roam the Target. Maybe you get something that’s on sale. Treat yourself to something a little fun. Maybe you start thinking nice things about your kids and decide you wanna look at something to get them! I don’t know. It doesn’t matter! The only thing that matters is you are completely by yourself. And that is so good. Of course you’ve got me intrigued in something creepy going on at your partner’s work. I’m like, “Ghosts? Is it ghosts? Is it zombies? What could possibly be creepy?” And guys, I have lots of really, truly horrible ideas of what could be creepy so I’m just not gonna go there for the, y’know, check-in? But I am glad you’re at Target. I’m glad you’re having a chance for some self-care. You’re doing such a good job.

biz

Guys, it’s time! For me! [Singing] To tell you what a good job you’re doing! [Scatting] Dat-dat, dee da-da-dat! [Regular voice] Essential workers? I love you. I love you! I think you are doing such a good job and I appreciate you. Medical professionals. Scientists. People working on vaccines. Using science. Love you guys a lot! Teachers and school administrators? School nurses? Extra-special shoutout. You’re probably getting dumped on all the time. You’re amazing. I wanna give a shoutout, again, to librarians and libraries. Guys? Don’t forget to check your library for resources! They are working so hard to make sure people have internet access or computer access. We just signed up for some trivia that Katy Belle might actually be good at. It’s like a kid’s graphic—y’know, the smile. The guts. If you’ve got kids who are 9, 10, or 11, you’ve read this book. And so they offer these sorts of events. You can check books out. Thank you, libraries and librarians, for what you’re doing. People who are out driving buses. Keeping public transportation running. Keeping things clean. All of our waste management employees—thank you, thank you, thank you. The list really goes on because, guys, this world works because of how essential everyone who participates [through laughter] in this world is. Okay? This is—it is nice that a moment like this allows us to shine a spotlight on that? But it is a spotlight that we need to leave on when this is long over. You’re all doing a good job. I’m… I’m doing alright. I’m in one of those, like, “Hey! Everything’s fine.” Which means we’re headed for a crash, so that’s a lot of fun. Let’s all look forward to next week, when I’m a big mess. But I wanna talk about a gaping hole that has entered my life, and that is the loss of Ellis’s front big tooth—upper tooth. Holy cow. That is a big hole and I had forgotten since Katy Belle lost teeth how fucking adorable it is, guys. [Lisping] Sister Susie wants to have a—[regular voice, laughs]. I just wanna make him do like a [lisping] “See shells seashells down by the seashore!” Right? “All I want for Christmas is my two front teeth!” [Regular voice] Okay. I—and it’s so cute. And when he turns around—even when he’s making one of his, like, blech faces, it’s adorable! ‘Cause it’s a big gaping hole! And here to talk to us about that big gaping hole is none other than Ellis.

ellis gustav

Hello!

biz

Alright. Are you ready to do our interview?

ellis

Yes.

crosstalk

Biz: Okay. Hold on one—wait— Ellis: So this is something really crazy.

biz

What?!

ellis

That I think we should put on the podcast.

biz

Okay. What?

ellis

So a couple days ago, so… a fisherman found a two-headed shark.

biz

What?!!

ellis

It was small. Fishermen did not know what to do. And it was crazy. [Biz gasps.] It’s so rare! To find one!

biz

That is really… rare! But I would like to ask you a question. You’re missing something in your head. What is it?

ellis

[Yelling] A TOOOOTH!

biz

It’s a tooth! Ellis? Tell me about losing the tooth and the whole thing with the Tooth Fairy.

ellis

Okay. So when I lost a tooth, papa called me out to put away my glass? And it just fell out into my hand! So at night, the Tooth Fairy did not come because we didn’t leave a mask. [Biz laughs.] And then when we left a mask, she came in. And took my tooth. And left me a dollar.

biz

Yep. That was—y’know, we forget the mask thing is tricky during these times. Ellis, in—when I usually do the opening of the show, one of the things that I do is I tell people how much I appreciate all their hard work. Like people who still have to work outside of their home during COVID or teachers or librarians or—

ellis

Uh-huh!

biz

Is there anybody you wanna say a big thank-you to for making our life a little easier during this?

ellis

Yeah!

biz

Okay.

ellis

The postmen! [Biz gasps.]

biz

What a good call! The postman is doing such a good job!

ellis

Yeah. I wanna thank you postmen. For delivering letters and whatever things you have to deliver the mail. I will—I will—I—and I will try helping. I will try doing things to do to make you have—to make you have help.

biz

Mm. Very—

ellis

This is Ellis!

biz

Thank you, Ellis! Say goodbye.

ellis

No! [Biz laughs.]

biz

Ellis, I’ve gotta get onto the interview! This is maybe the longest a child has been on the show. Can you say… uh, goodbye?

ellis

No. [Biz sighs, makes faux-frustrated noise.]

biz

On that note, I’m gonna kick ya out. Goodbye, Ellis Gustavvvv!

ellis

Okay! I’ll leave. But—and I’ll say goodbye to only the postmen.

biz

Okay. Fine.

ellis

Postmen—only you will be said goodbye to me—from me. Goodbye, postmen!

biz

Yes. Wonderful job, Ellis! [Applauding] Thank you. That was wonderful.

biz

There you have it, folks. From the mouth of Ellis. That mouth in which there is a gaping hole. Which I think ties in very nicely [through laughter] to what we’re gonna talk about today, and that is about the new documentary Surge, which covers the historical number of women who ran for office in the 2018 midterms, helping to make that gaping hole [through laughter] in our representation even smaller.

music

Banjo strums; cheerful banjo music continues through dialogue.

theresa

Please—take a moment to remember: If you’re friends of the hosts of One Bad Mother, you should assume that when we talk about other moms, we’re talking about you.

biz

If you are married to the host of One Bad Mother, we definitely are talking about you.

theresa

Nothing we say constitutes professional parenting advice.

biz

Biz and Theresa’s children are brilliant, lovely, and exceedingly extraordinary.

theresa

Nothing said on this podcast about them implies otherwise. [Banjo music fades out.] [Biz and her guests repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss the weekly topic.]

biz

This week, we are talking to Wendy Sachs and Hannah Rosenzweig, directors and producers of the new documentary Surge. So welcome, Wendy and Hannah! It’s so nice to have you here! Thank you for joining us! I want to start by asking you guys what we always ask our guests, and that is—who lives in your house? Wendy, let’s start with you.

wendy sachs

So my 17-year-old daughter is currently upstairs with COVID. [Laughs.]

biz

[Through laughter] No! What?!

wendy

Quarantining in her bedroom. She’s on day seven.

biz

Oh, baby!

wendy

And my 19-year-old son is in college in Boston, wearing his mask, I hope. And going for his COVID test every three days. At college. [Biz laughs.] And my dog is here. And my husband.

biz

Yayyy! Awesome. Oh, the COVID! [Laughs.] Hannah, who lives in your house?

hannah rosenzweig

Well I can’t top a kid with COVID—

crosstalk

Biz: I know! No one can! [Laughs.] Hannah: —for a parenting podcast.

hannah

I have an eight-year-old daughter and a husband and no—no pets. So nothing else living. Maybe a few plants, but that’s it.

biz

Let’s get in to Surge. Surge, feature documentary about the record number of first-time female candidates who ran, won, and up into politics in what became the historic, barrier-breaking 2018 midterm elections. But—clearly the concept for this started before 2018. So I’m hoping you can take us back to where this began? For the two of you. Hannah, I’ll start with you?

hannah

Yeah. Well, back in early 2017, both of us were—both of us participated in the women’s marches. Obviously we were—not obviously, but I will share with you, we were both devastated by the results of the 2016 election. And Wendy was writing and—articles about what was happening and the Women’s March and I was working as an organizer for the March and making media for them. Doing video production. And afterwards we were seeing that there were not only all the—y’know—we had the marches, but that all these women were starting to run for office. Hundreds of them. All over the country. In races, y’know, small—like school board—up all the way to congressional and senatorial races. Or House races and Senate races. And it was just the most amazing thing! And we thought it was a great story and we got together—originally with a third person who’s now one of our executive producers, Tanya Selvaratnam—and the three of us said, “This has got to be a movie. It is a really important story.” So that was the beginning. We had a phone call first—the three of us—and then I think we met in person. And it just… went from there! And we have pushed it all the way up— [through laughter] a boulder up a mountain since it was— [Biz laughs.] —then when it was released on September 8th and we’re still doing it! We’re still getting it out there.

biz

Wendy, what brought you into it?

wendy

Well, I think what—as Hannah was saying—y’know, after the devastating results of the 2016 election, then there was this Women’s March, which was really empowering. And all of these women were activating. And then there were all of these stories that we saw everywhere. On TV and magazines and newspapers—all these stories bubbling up about thousands of women throwing their hats into the ring and saying, “I’ve gotta run for office. I need to do something more than march. I need to do something more than, y’know, just spout on Facebook about my rage and my anger. I need to do more than call my members of Congress. I’m going to run for office.” And women who had never imagined that they would run for office ever before! These were all—y’know—first-time candidates. And I think that was what was so interesting to me and Hannah, was to see the sheer numbers of volume of women who were stepping up. And young and of different backgrounds and different ethnicities, and all different types of people who don’t typically look like elected politicians! [Biz laughs.] That was what was so, just, powerful!

biz

Do you mean “old white men”? [Laughs.]

crosstalk

Biz: They don’t look like that? They don’t look like that? [Laughs.] Wendy: Yeah! They don’t look like the—like, right!

wendy

Our ideal of—y’know, who elected official in America is. What a congressman looks like is a middle-aged white guy. And instead we saw, like, women with like arm sleeves. Like, up and down their arms. Tattoos. And breastfeeding on the trail. And, y’know, young black women like Lauren Underwood. And she’s a nurse. She’s relatable. She’s human. She’s normal. She’s representative of America. And those were the types of stories we wanted to capture in Surge. We wanted to tell the stories of real women who are not on either one of the coasts, right? But who were like part of like the heart of America, running in really, deeply red districts and looking to flip their seats. And running in uphill battles and out there fighting the fight to save our democracy! It was a really compelling story!

hannah

Yes. I think, also, like, Wendy and I both have a background in politics? So I think the fact that seeing all these women running—it was so significant to us? Having been in the political world? And never in our lifetimes—like, there was 1992, when a lot of women ran, but it was different. Y’know, there just weren’t the numbers. And so I think that that added to this incredible—this interest for us. That, y’know, wow! This is— [Biz laughs.] —amazing! This could like fundamentally shift our political landscape. And it did!

biz

You follow three congressional candidates. In Texas, Indiana, and Illinois. And like you said, they were trying to flip it blue. I’m wondering… how did you wind up selecting who you followed?

wendy

So, y’know—and I was sort of mentioning this before. We wanted to really represent America. Right? So we wanted to show the diversity of the women who are running. And in deep red districts. And we wanted to also represent women’s different backgrounds and different experiences. We wanted this diverse range of candidates. So we found Lauren Underwood, who is, y’know, tremendous. She was in her early 30s. Black. A millennial. A nurse. In Indiana we were following Liz Watson, who is in her 40s and she’s a labor attorney. And she also has two young children, so she was a mother of two young children. And then in Texas we were following Jana Lynne Sanchez, who’s in her early 50s? Never imagined she would run for office before. Probably of all three the least, like, polished? Y’know, the least buttoned-up? She was very raw, which made her a great character to film. And ultimately we’re looking for women who are going to really sort of let us into their lives. They need to be able to pop on screen. I mean, it is casting. You’re casting for a film. But we also wanna make sure that we’re following races that have a chance. Right? So we wanted, y’know, we came in very early and we were looking at numbers and polling data and speaking to some experts and hoping that our candidates would make it through their primaries. We were intentional in trying to choose women that—who could make it through the primary, and then hopefully make it to the general. But you just don’t know. But those elements were all really important to us? And again, we didn’t wanna follow women on the East Coast or the West Coast. We wanted to follow women in other parts of the country who are really representative of the surge. And who were relatable.

biz

They were! They were very relatable! I found things that I liked about all three of these women, and they brought such—while they brought so many different things to their races? There was something that was absolutely shared by all of them, and it was this passion—this drive—this… y’know, they are out there—all of them talk about the time commitment. It takes all the things they’re learning on the ground. And just sort of their experiences with… the establishment that is already there. The film obviously exposes the double standards that apply. One of my favorite lines from the whole film is by Patti Russo, who’s the executive director of the Campaign School at Yale, who says, “You think you’re going to be treated fairly. You’re not.” And I—and it was like so true because I feel like… women do have this tendency to assume the best sometimes. When we’re starting something. And I don’t mean just politics. I mean any of the arenas that we enter. Y’know, you think… “Well, this is normal. Look around. Everything’s clearly normal.” And then you walk in and the first question they’re asking you is about your kids and do you have the time commitment for that? I mean it was remarkable to also watch that and I was glad that you touched on it. So I guess what I wanna know is—as you were filming this, what was it like to have to be documenting that double standard and these experiences of these women going through it? And not screaming at the top of your lungs all day? [Laughs.]

hannah

Y’know, y’know, that’s such an interesting question. Because I think our experience for the most part of filming them were, y’know, we were just floored by the hard work and the passion. And, y’know, just the commitment they were putting in every day. IT was kind of interesting, y’know, mostly the—and I think you see that they’re just really hard—a group of really hardworking people. That that’s—most of their days were just spent dialing for dollars. Door-knocking. Having events. Y’know, speaking. Fundraising events and political events. And so there wasn’t a lot of dwelling in those? Y’know, it was interesting. ‘Cause I think we could’ve followed politicians—or candidates that were much more dwelling in the negativity. Y’know, we did—Jana talked a lot about how hard it is. But I think she wasn’t talking about it necessarily in terms of, y’know, I’ll let Wendy talk about that. I think though, that what you’re pointing to—what you’re touching on—was almost most pronounced with Liz’s campaign?

biz

Correct.

hannah

Because—and also because of who Liz is. She’s such an idealistic person, and she started out, y’know, thinking that she could potentially flip this super red district because she had all the right messages and really believed in it and was so passionate. So smart. She raised $2 million. And I think what was really tough is that she started, y’know, especially in the last six months of her campaign, coming up the whole—money in politics, right? She was running against a millionaire. No matter what she did, he was still on the air so much more than she was. And he was badmouthing her. He was—there was all that negative advertising. So there’s only so much that you can do when you don’t have the same sort of money to be on the air all the time. Y’know, you have—and she talks about it. She had to try to get—be everywhere all at once. And she’s a mom with young kids at home and y’know that’s kind of where being a parent—very, very challenging. And then, y’know, she—it turned out the polls were really tightening in the last few weeks of the campaign and it just became super challenging for her, I think.

biz

I watched this with my 11-year-old. And what I liked… that I could turn to her and say, was that with all three of these women, even though they were slightly different in their reactions, the reactions always stayed sort of on point. That “They can only come after me with this, which has nothing to do with the issues. And I’m just gonna stay on point.” Y’know. The—“When they go low, we go high.” Right? Like, and I just… I loved that that was an image that she got to see. She didn’t see the dwelling. She saw the momentum. The moving forward. The documentary isn’t just about the women who were running. It was about the women who were supporting them. Which is very powerful. It’s very apparent in the footage that you guys chose. And one of the overlying themes that sort of comes up is the question around 2018, the “Is this the year of the woman?” Which is so [through laughter] so dismissive. “You get one year, ladies! That’s it!” [Clapping in time] “Chop chop! And also, we’ve said this line before. We’ve said it 2016 and every time a woman gets, y’know, excited about something.” So—but the question’s really—is it a moment or is it a movement? I believe one of your guests spoke about, “Will it be more?” So based on what you saw in the time spent making the documentary and seeing all the different ways that women were getting involved, what was your takeaway on how you see… that involvement shaping this current election? Wendy? I’ll start with you?

wendy

Yeah. No, that’s such a great question because that was the pivotal question that we asked throughout the film. We asked every single person we interviewed—and early on—we wanted to say, like, “Yeah! What is this?” Y’know? Is this gonna be like another blip or is this for real? Is this a real transformational shift? And I think what—I think 2020 is really proving that it is absolutely a movement. And we know that by the numbers. The data actually points to all of that, which is good. This isn’t just my sort of hope and a prayer. [Biz laughs.] This is actually followed up by real data. And there are more women running in 2020 than ran in 2018. There are more women of color running. More Black women. More Latino women. More Asian women. Also there are more Republican women running this time! Republican women were told to sit out 2018. And they are no longer sitting out. So, y’know, their numbers are also, y’know moving the needle and growing the number of women who are running. The number of Black women running, though, is really tremendous. And I don’t have the latest figures right now, but it’s very powerful. It’s really showing that what happened in 2018 has had a major impact. And encouraged a lot of women to run. Because there’s now a support system that didn’t exist before. And that’s what’s critical. ‘Cause what’s held women back? Are a few things. One, there’s this idea that you need to be tapped to run for office. That it’s not your turn to run. That’s sort of almost like, should you even have the audacity to be running? Who are you to decide that you’re gonna run for office? And that’s been a big shift. And I think that when Hillary lost—or more important, when Donald Trump won—and what we saw in the aftermath of what that looked like, women said, “I need to do something and I’m gonna step up and I’m gonna run.” And so the more times we’re seeing women in all different types, shapes, sizes, colors; from different parts of the country; of all different backgrounds! Once they run for office it’s encouraging other women to do the same thing. The other thing that’s happening is money. Fundraising. Fundraising has been one of the biggest issues that holds women back. Women don’t like to ask people for money. This is a truism. We just don’t! And historically we haven’t had—this is gonna, y’know, date me—but that Rolodex. Y’know, that network. To really tap into! [Biz laughs.] And so as that’s shifting—as more women are writing checks for female candidates. As there are like crowdfunding campaigns for women candidates. As organizations and more support groups. Bootcamp training for women. And there’s a whole bunch! So Yale was one. Patti Russo from the Yale Campaign School. But there are others—Emerge America; Higher Heights; VoteRunLead—there’s all these different organizations that are training women. And it’s also giving them a network so they’re not in it alone. So when we start like putting all of this together—fundraising. Networks. Support groups. Training. And seeing a reflection of what you can be doing ‘cause you’re seeing other successful women out there running and winning… it changes everything!

biz

After having followed them and your own experience in politics, that does lead to the question of—well, why should i? What does it take? What does it take for a person besides just the desire to do it? To run? Hannah, any thoughts on that? I mean, did you see qualities? Did you see certain things? I mean, ‘cause I—Wendy, you talk about the Rolodex. And when I think about flipping the Rolodex? That’s back when I was like an executive assistant. Right? Like, and that Rolodex wasn’t my Rolodex. That was their Rolodex. Right? Like, even… and what’s different now is that that’s not… the jobs that women really have to have. Y’know. Now. And so what does it take? If we’ve got listeners out there who are like, “Yeah, I wanna run.” Why should they?

hannah

I think that, y’know, and what most of our experts will say? Is if you have a desire to run, you should do it. And you can do it. Right? You may not win your first time. [Biz laughs.] Like we saw—two of our—we followed three and two lost. But they actually—actually, earlier this week we did an event where we sort of reframed loss and came up with, like, “I lost, but I won!” Because even if you lose, we show that you’re—there’s many ways that you’re winning. You’re changing your community for the better. Or at least our women are. But many, many, many women who run and lose are still creating—making incredible inroads in their communities. And, y’know, changing voters’ minds and getting voters engaged and building an infrastructure for when they run again. Or for when the next person runs. So I think—but a lot of experts will say, “If you have the desire to run, then you absolutely should just go ahead and do it.” And there’re all these organizations out there to help and support you. And that I think, y’know, we don’t—because of also what Wendy was saying, we don’t wanna get into this thing anymore where women are second-guessing, like, “Who, me? Why should I run? Am I qualified?” No! If you have the desire, you feel like you can make a difference, you feel like you’re ready for the challenge of it—100% go for it.

wendy

And one of the key things, I think, is not everyone should be running for Congress. [Biz laughs.] Y’know? We followed—and I think that’s a really important message for your listeners! Because—and in fact, Hannah and I have been doing a lot of events with the film that are actually focused on state and local races. Because those are really, really important. Arguably, in many ways, more important right now? Is to—flipping state seats and getting women into legislatures because they actually write the districts and they really are controlling what’s happening in your day-to-day. At the city council level. Y’know, at your school board level. There are all these really, really important, meaningful positions that a lot of people don’t even—women don’t even know exist. That often go unchallenged. People actually often don’t even run! There might be one person who says, “Alright, I’ll take that on.” And so there’s so many important places where women could be… could be leaders and grow and develop and evolve as leaders and then move on. Running for Congress makes for a great film? Y’know, it’s a— [Biz laughs.] —it’s a more sort of… exciting, y’know, those races are more exciting to capture? Which is why we weren’t focusing on local school board races. They’re just like not as fun. You don’t have like big parties or as much tension and up and down. So it’s not great storytelling. But it doesn’t mean that those seats aren’t important. So I would encourage all of the women who are listening out there who think, “You know what? I don’t like what’s happening in my school district!” You know what? You should run for office. Run for school board. Or “I don’t like what’s happening in my town.” You know what? Call the Board of Elections. See what the available seats are. See even what they are! Most people don’t even know what they have locally. I certainly didn’t. We actually don’t even have, like, a mayor in my town. It’s called like a Town President. There’s all sorts of like random positions where I live. [Biz laughs.] But people don’t know! And I would say absolutely go for it. And that’s where the confidence builds, also. And that’s where your network builds. So when you run for the next seat, you now actually have a network of people to tap into when you really need to raise some money. You don’t need to raise very much money when you’re running for school board. But—depending on, I guess, which school board you’re running for. I ran for school board in my town. I will tell you that. I think I spent like $200 on my lawn signs. [Biz laughs.] I did not win. But— [Biz laughs.] —it was a great lesson. Because I realized I needed to sort of campaign differently. And build my platform differently. But it was a great experience.

biz

Well, okay. I was gonna wrap up, but now I’m not. Because that’s gonna lead me to this double standard question! It takes me back to the double standard. And I think that one of the ones that women… face more than any—is “anger is bad.” And I don’t mean rage. I Mean anger! I mean, like, “This is unfair. This shouldn’t be happening.” Right? Well, “Calm down everybody!” Or the—“You have to be assertive, but at the same—but not aggressive! But at the same time, be… approachable and smiling and not, y’know, toxic or drama” or whatever word we come up with this week to describe women in a negative way. And even with the current hearings—well, I guess the hearings are over now—for Supreme Court—while Amy Barrett is not my choice? To be a [through laughter] Supreme Court judge. At the same time, I hated having to watch her answer questions about family responsibility and her ability to commit to it. And I also thought about her overall appearance, and this quiet and the smile and this—and I just thought, “We’ve got two members who have been accused of assault. And they don’t have to smile.” And I just—where are we with this double standard? Have we gotten past—no. We’ve not gotten past it. Are we getting any closer to… getting past it? From what you’ve witnessed over the last four years.

wendy

I think it’s a really great question and I’ll jump in and Hannah can answer, too. I actually—I write a lot about this. I wrote a book called Fearless and Free and one of my chapters is literally about this double bind that women in leadership face. And I kick it off talking about Hillary Clinton, and all of the—y’know, “She’s not smiley enough. She’s not warm enough. She’s not authentic enough.” And then there was this great Jimmy Kimmel sketch where she was on and he was doing this, y’know, funny thing. And she was standing up at a podium and she was giving a speech and she starts her stump speech and he’s like, [claps twice] “No, no, no. No, no. Um, you’re too shrill. You’re too shrill.” And she takes it down and she dials it back and, “No, no. Now—you’re too quiet now. You’re like whispering.” [Biz laughs.] “And can you smile a little?” So she starts smiling. She’s smiling. He’s like, “You look like a Lakers girl up there! What are you doing?” [Biz laughs.] And then he’s like, [claps twice] “What is it? What is it? God, there’s something about you—what is it? Oh, I know. You’re not a man. You’re not a man!” [Biz laughs.] And that sort of encapsulated all of what you’re talking about. And no, I don’t think we’re beyond it. I don’t. I think what’s happening, though, is the more women who are running—and the more times we see women giving speeches and on air and debating, y’know, we had six women running for president and we saw them doing debates and we see Kamala Harris up there—the more that we see—the more that we hear women’s voices and get used to the idea that they’re higher pitched! Y’know, they’re not men’s voices. We just don’t have those vocal cords. But no, we have a far way to go. I mean, so when I was running for school board and I was dealing with all these old white guys who did not like me very much, I definitely felt the sexism. I definitely felt the—also what I was wearing. What I looked like. And all of that. So on a personal level I felt that. But I think we still very much feel it and see it and—yeah, things are shifting. It’s gonna take time, though. And it’s going to take more and more and more women of all different races and all different voices and sounding differently and looking differently and like, Lauren Underwood with her natural hair, y’know—that’s what we need to see so that then becomes what a leader looks like! Not all just like primped and pearls and little kitten heels!

hannah

Yeah. No, exactly. Everything Wendy said. I mean, I think that we’re still dealing with it hardcore. Like, it is—y’know, I think about how—yes, Kamala did amazing in the VP debate and yet she was called a monster. By Trump. The next day. And that was covered everywhere. Right? I think about AOC on the steps of Congress. Called the B-word. Or—you said we could curse. But I don’t even wanna repeat it!

biz

But I don’t—that is one of the few words I don’t like using. [Laughs.]

hannah

Right.

biz

That never makes the show. [Laughs.]

hannah

Okay. good. But the flip side of that—and where—and what will continue to change is exactly what AOC did! She was like, “No, I’m not gonna stay quiet about this. I’m not just gonna take it and be like, ‘Oh, forget it. That’s—why get upset. Why—” Right! Instead, she gave an incredible speech. And that went viral and everyone—y’know, that got tons of press and was incredibly important speech and will outlive, y’know, probably her career. I mean, it was just a seminal speech. Right? About the double standards. Exactly what you’re talking about. So I think that the more women that we have and the more different kinds of women and the more different voices we’re hearing, and the more that we see that they are pushing against these, y’know, when they’re attacked they’re pushing back? They’re not just being like, “Oh, forget it. That’s just the guy.” Y’know. Is how we’ll get there. But no, we’re not there yet. We’re still knee-deep in it.

biz

Neck deep. [Laughs.]

hannah

Neck deep, yeah. Neck deep.

biz

Just like—well, Wendy and Hannah, I have more questions but I’m gonna control myself. Thank you guys so much—not only for joining us to talk about the documentary, but thank you for making it.

crosstalk

Wendy and Hannah: Thank you!

hannah

Bye!

music

“Ones and Zeroes” by “Awesome.” Steady, driving electric guitar with drum and woodwinds. [Music fades out.]

music

Laid-back guitar plays in background.

biz

One Bad Mother is supported in part by Desserted, a small business taking gifting up a notch—or more like 30 notches!—with custom dessert boxes that change lives.

theresa

Okay, you guys. These gift boxes are so wonderful. They have tasty desserts inside and they come with hand-doodled cards that are totally personalized for the recipient. You can use them for any occasion! I mean, birthdays, anniversary, just because—care packages are so nice right now. They also now have a dessert box subscription service. Yum! [Biz laughs.] So literally desserts on your doorstep with a new, super-fun theme every month. [Conspiratorially] October’s theme is “Chocolate.”

biz

Who doesn’t like surprises? [Theresa laughs.] For 25% off, go to Desserted.co/badmother. That’s 20% off at D-E-S-S-E-R-T-E-D.C-O/badmother. [Music fades.]

theresa

Hey, you know what it’s time for! This week’s genius and fails! This is the part of the show where we share our genius moment of the week, as well as our failures, and feel better about ourselves by hearing yours. You can share some of your own by calling 206-350-9485. That’s 206-350-9485.

biz

Genius fail time, Theresa. Theresa, you may not know this, but people are letting me know how nice it is to hear your voice.

theresa

Really? Ohhh!

biz

Yes!

theresa

Guys? That’s really nice. It’s—it’s nice to hear the sound of my own voice, too. [Biz laughs.] No, I’m just kidding. [Laughs.] Um, it’s— [Laughs.] It’s very, very good for me to be here for this time. [Biz laughs.] Right now. Um, so.

crosstalk

Theresa: Yes. It’s mutual. Biz: As it is—as—

biz

Yes. As it is for me. So let’s not waste any more of your precious, precious, sweet time!

theresa

Okay.

biz

Genius me!

clip

[Dramatic, swelling music in background.] Biz: Wow! Oh my God! Oh my God! I saw what you did! Oh my God! I’m paying attention! Wow! You, mom, are a genius. Oh my God, that’s fucking genius! [Biz and Theresa repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss their respective genius moments of the week.]

theresa

Okay. My genius and my fail this week are all about Oscar, my six-year-old who’s about to turn seven who’s just been having like a really tough time recently. And… [Laughs.] I guess I’ll get into that more during the fail. [Biz laughs.] But my genius was—so he’s still—he doesn’t know how to ride a two-wheeler yet. None of my kids do yet, and it’s all my fault. It’s one of those things that’s all my fault?

biz

Yeah. Definitely.

theresa

But instead—my genius moment was that instead of dwelling on that and the fact that, like, the bike we originally like found for him or someone gave us, like, a while ago? When it would’ve been like a normal time to start learning to ride a bike? Has just been like sitting in the garage and like has flat tires and is way too small for him and blah, blah, blah. But he asked me the other day, “Mom, I really want to learn and I really wanna practice.” And so rather than just going and crying, or just, like, hating myself— [Laughs.] I said— [Biz laughs.] “Let’s do it.” And so we got the bike out and we dusted it off. We put some air in those tires. We adjusted the seat and the handlebars, which is really all you can do when you have a bike that’s too small for you. And we practiced! And the story of this is not “He can now ride a bike.” [Biz laughs.] No. This is—we’re setting the bar low, guys. We’re setting the bar very low. [Through laughter] And that’s why it’s totally achievable and the genius was doing this and doing it together and putting in the practice time, which was good? And just enjoying that time with him.

biz

That is really genius. It’s the saying “yes’ when you really, really don’t want to say yes.

theresa

Yes. Exactly. Yes.

biz

And just a shoutout to low bars—they’re a lot easier to get over on a bike.

theresa

Yep!

biz

When they’re very low.

theresa

So true.

biz

You are doing a good job!

theresa

Thank you.

biz

You’re welcome. Guys? I would really like Katy Belle to still be eight. In fact— [Theresa laughs.] —I might not quite have accepted that she’s eleven. Really, I gotta—she’s eleven but she’s really twelve because she’s already in sixth grade and all her friends are twelve. So she’s twelve. We’re just— [Laughs.] Skip a year.

theresa

Yeah. She’s near twelve-year-olds, so therefore she’s twelve.

biz

Yep. She’s twelve. A lot of like… wrestling with sort of… trying—I just… look. Here’s the thing. ‘Cause I wanna—my fail is connected to this as well. So I’m just gonna skip to the genius part. And that is—she wanted a fairly dramatic haircut. And all of my responses inside were, “You have got wavy hair. If you go short, it’s gonna be—you are gonna be sad.” Or “You’re—” y’know, like, “Don’t—we can’t cut it. You won’t be—you’ll hate it! You’ll hate it!” Right? And I yelled and screamed and then I thought about it and thought about how I looked for a majority of my life— [Laughs.] And I said, “Katy Belle? You want me to cut your hair? I’ll cut your hair.” [Theresa gasps.] And we’d looked at picture and I watched a lot of YouTube videos—‘cause I mean, this wasn’t, like, bowl. This was like really short on one side. Short up the back. Flipping it over to the side. Like, very mature. Very everything. And.

theresa

Stylish! Dare I say.

biz

Very stylish! And I’m really proud of myself for not fucking it up. And I’m really proud of myself because… I said yes. And she looks so good! And she—you can see the difference in just how she moves through the house?

theresa

Oh.

biz

I—yeah.

theresa

Oh my god. Thank you for summarizing—see, you’ve gotten really good at doing this segment without me? [Biz laughs.] Because you just summarized all your own genius moments within this genius moment. I don’t even have to do it for you. So many gold stars. So amazing. [Biz laughs.] So awesome. Good job.

caller

[Answering machine beeps.] Hello, One Bad Mother! This is Sarah and I am calling with what I’m hoping is a genius. So Halloween is coming and my two kids think Halloween is the greatest thing to ever happen to this planet. But… COVID. And also, I am having major abdominal surgery in a couple of weeks. So I probably won’t be able to walk the neighborhood with them anyway. So I am asking friends, family, and neighbors to send me selfies of silly, ridiculous faces, and I’m just cutting out paper cutouts of houses to line our long hallway. Behind every door? A picture of somebody they know and a couple of pieces of candy for each kid! We’re gonna trick-or-treat through our whole house. Every single wall. So they get to see their friends and family. They get their candy. And I can lay on the couch the entire time. You guys are doing a great job, and I’m hoping so am I. Bye!

theresa

I’m literally tearing up right now.

biz

I am too! I—it brings tears to my eyes how… wonderful you are.

theresa

Yes. You’re wonderful.

biz

This is such a genius idea? It’s so… good.

theresa

And thank you for calling it in now so that we can hear it— [Biz laughs.] —and people can use it? ‘Cause it’s so good! [Laughs.]

biz

I’m steal, steal, stealing your ideas. Yes! Oh, you are doing… such a good job. And I really hope that the surgery goes well and that as you are reclining on your sofa while your kids trick-or-treat that you have a secret stash of the good stuff. Like, the good candy.

theresa

Oh yeah. Oh, yeah.

biz

Good candy.

theresa

Love it.

biz

You are doing such a good job! Failures.

clip

[Dramatic orchestral music plays in the background.] Theresa: [In a voice akin to the Wicked Witch of the West] Fail. Fail. Fail. FAIL! [Timpani with foot pedal engaged for humorous effect.] Biz: [Calmly] You suck! [Biz and Theresa repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss their respective failures of the week.]

biz

Fail me, Theresa.

theresa

Yeah. I can do that. Um— [Biz laughs.] —so I alluded to this before, so this is relating to Oscar and him just having a hard time generally right now. I decided, like, a week ago to try and do something nice.

biz

Uh-oh.

theresa

So here we go. [Biz laughs.] Obviously. The nice thing I was trying to do for him was set him up with an archery lesson. Like, a real archery lesson. Which I feel like is… I mean, really gold-star parenting. Like, very proud of myself just for having that idea? And I would think if I were that kid, getting to do that, with like a real bow and arrow, that that would be like a dream come true!

biz

Sure.

theresa

And he seemed interested in the idea. He seemed like he liked the idea. The—

biz

Ohh. My stomach is starting to like—my stomach is starting to flip, Theresa!

theresa

I mean, you’re not gonna be that surprised. So basically the time slot that was available required me to move several things in order to be able to do it. I could’ve chosen not to do that. I could’ve said, “Okay, we’re just not gonna be able to do it this week. We’ll wait another week.” But I said, “No, no, no. I can do this. This is gonna be worth it. I’m gonna move this thing; I’m gonna talk to this person; I’m gonna make sure this person can do this and that person can do that—” I moved three—three things. And two of the things that I moved ended up cancelling on me that day. So it was all kind of pointless? Like, all the back-and-forth had been really pointless? Like, I could’ve just done nothing ‘cause they were being cancelled at the last minute. [Biz laughs.] And then Oscar just didn’t go. He just wouldn’t go. He just wouldn’t go. And like I’m not even gonna get into all that ‘cause that’s a whole long story? It doesn’t mean he won’t ever go do that? But like, it was like the two cancellations at the last minute and then to top it off—no way. There’s literally no way this kid is getting in the car. It’s not happening. It is 100% not happening. So—yeah. I guess I felt really defeated? And… I just… it was really hard not to just hate myself. Because I just feel like I had done all of that to myself for no reason?

biz

Yeah. I’m—I’m sorry. [Theresa laughs.]

theresa

[Through laughter] Thank you.

biz

It’s the doing the nice thing and then… the, like, kick in the gut when the kid has, like, zero—like, doesn’t even want to go. Or goes and hates the entire experience. Right? Like—yeah. I am… I’m really sorry? I would have imagined that at this point you would’ve learned that doing nice things for your children is a recipe for disaster?

theresa

Right.

biz

So, y’know. You’re failing.

theresa

I know. I know. Thank you.

biz

Oh, you’re welcome. As I alluded to, I… really am so surprised that we are here. Guys. When it comes to Katy Belle, who is eleven and not eight. And we’re just gonna focus on me here, ‘cause she’s doing everything normal and right. I—like, when she asked for that haircut? Y’know, which is among a list of other sort of things that she’s asked for? Like, the things that came to my mind were like, “You’re not gonna be pretty. It’s not gonna—” Y’know like all this stuff.

crosstalk

Theresa: Yeah. The baggage. Yeah. Yeah. Biz: Especially growing up in the South and like the things like I know my mom—

biz

Like, “Why would you wear that? Why would you wear something so baggy? Your figure is so nice! Why would you cut all your hair off!” Y’know? Blah! And y’know, it—I realized that that messaging—luckily, I did not say to her, “You won’t be pretty.” [Theresa laughs.] But my “no” definitely sent a message. Right? It sent a message that I’m not ready to listen to your personal choices. Right? And… I—I mean, obviously I came around ‘cause I remember my own mama telling me, “Look, you’re gonna ask for stuff and tell me things and I am gonna scream and I am gonna yell and I am going to… y’know… throw a fit. And you’re just gonna have to be patient because I will come back.”

crosstalk

Theresa: [Through laughter] That’s amazing. Yeah. Biz: “When I’ve had a chance to calm down and think about it.”

biz

And like—so while the one voice of my mom was in my head at the like, “Just stop wearing all black, baby girl!” Right? [Laughs.] Like, right? Like with that came the other voice that I always—she always let me. Cut all my hair off. Y’know, she let me make those choices and mistakes? And like so—ugh. How is this a fail? It’s just that I wasn’t ready and I realize I’m still not ready and I realized that like, my answers are gonna probably be “no”? [Laughs.] Initially? And then I’m gonna have to like spend all this time—

crosstalk

Theresa: Walking it back. Yeah. Yeah. Biz: Figuring it—walking it back.

biz

And baggage and—god. Y’know?

theresa

Control.

biz

I—it is! Total…

theresa

Yep.

biz

[Sighs deeply; turns into a growl.]

theresa

Yeah. I just—yeah. [Biz laughs.] I’m not gonna say the words that “You suck”?

crosstalk

Biz: Uh-huh. Thanks. Theresa: But it—here. I just am not.

theresa

‘Cause I feel like it’s not—I feel like you’re doing a really good job. But that does suck.

biz

It does suck.

theresa

Yeah.

biz

And it’s more of the fail of—“Why is this still surprising me? And why haven’t I moved on with her?” [Laughs.]

theresa

Yeah. “Why can’t I be ready for this?” Yeah. Yeah.

biz

I know! [Laughs.] Ugh!

theresa

Ugh.

caller

[Answering machine beeps.] Hey, Biz and Theresa! This… is a fail. So my husband and toddler both really like airplanes? So we went to the store the other day and got a model airplane that my husband can fly. And we took it to the park today ‘cause it was a gorgeous day and they were having such a good time. It was just so fun to see them both so happy and flying the airplane around. Just having a great time. Then my husband handed me the controls. And I somehow managed to crash the brand-new airplane into a tree. [Biz laughs.] How I did that at like, an open soccer field? I don’t know. [Biz laughs.] Like, I don’t know! But I crashed it into a fucking tree. My toddler was devastated. My husband is now back at the park trying to climb the fucking tree to get the airplane down. [Biz laughs.] And… I just feel like such a failure. Thanks. Bye.

biz

Oh, yeah! [Theresa laughs.] You failed! [Laughs.]

theresa

Yeah! This is a very clear…

biz

Yeah.

theresa

No beating around the bush here.

crosstalk

Theresa: You just crashed that plane. Biz: From takeoff— [Laughs.]

biz

From takeoff to landing, it was a direct course. [Theresa laughs.] For failures. [Both laugh.] Well, stop trying to have fun, mom! Ugh! [Theresa laughs.] Doing a horrible job!

music

“Mom Song” by Adira Amram. Mellow piano music with lyrics. You are the greatest mom I’ve ever known. I love you, I love you. When I have a problem, I call you on the phone. I love you, I love you. [Music fades out.]

biz

Cheerful ukulele with whistling plays in background.

theresa

One Bad Mother is supported in part by Dipsea. When our routines are changed, it’s easy to forget to check in with yourself. How are you feeling? Do you need a break? If you need to hit a pause and take a moment for yourself, Dipsea can help.

biz

[Through laughter] Yes, it can. [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.] Dipsea is an audio app of short, sexy stories and wellness sessions that are designed to turn you on and help you get in touch with your Self! Talk about a little self-care! [Theresa laughs.] Mama needs some… self-care. [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.] The stories are relatable and immersive. Y’know, so you feel like you’re right there. There’s something for everyone, whoever and whatever you’re into. And I—it is nice! To have a little break like that! And they’re short! So it’s not like you’re committed to a long relationship. [Both laugh.]

theresa

And for listeners of the show, Dipsea is offering a 30-day free trial when you go to DipseaStories.com/badmother. That’s a 30-day free trial when you go to D-I-P-S-E-A-Stories.com/badmother. DipseaStories.com/badmother. [Music fades.]

promo

Music: Cheerful, tinkling music plays in background. Dave Holmes: Are you feeling elevated levels of anxiety? [Light “ding” sound.] Do you quake uncontrollably even thinking about watching cable news? [Light “ding” sound.] Do you have disturbing nightmares, only to realize it’s two in the afternoon and you’re up? [Three light “dings” in the background.] If you’ve experienced one or more of these symptoms, you may have FNO—[beep] News Overload! Fortunately, there’s treatment. Music: Dramatic synth music plays in background. Dave: Hi. I’m Dave Holmes, host of Troubled Waters. Troubled Waters helps fight FNO. That’s because Troubled Waters stimulates your joy zone! On Troubled Waters, two comedians will battle one another for pop culture supremacy. So join me, Dave Holms, for two—two—two doses of Troubled Waters a month! The cure for your [beep] News Overload! Available on MaximumFun.org or wherever you get your podcasts.

promo

Music: Sophisticated electronic/string music. Teresa McElroy: Shmanners. Noun. Definition: rules of etiquette designed not to judge others, but rather to guide ourselves through everyday social situations. [Music stops.] Travis McElroy: Hello, internet! I’m your husband host, Travis McElroy. Teresa: And I’m your wife host, Teresa McElroy. Travis: Every week on Shmanners, we take a look at a topic that has to do with society or manners. We talk about the history of it. We take a look at how it applies to everyday life. And we take some of your questions. And sometimes, we do a biography about a really cool person that had an impact on how we view etiquette. [Music fades back in.] Travis: So, join us every Friday and listen to Shmanners on MaximumFun.org, or wherever podcasts are found. Teresa: Manners shmanners. Get it? [Music ends on a bright chord.]

biz

Guys? It’s time. That special, special favorite time of One Bad Mother. And that’s when we get to listen to a mom have a breakdown.

caller

[Answering machine beeps.] Hi, this is one of those scream calls? Are you guys still doing those? Where you can just fucking yell? Because… [sighs]. I have three very young children and I’m just at the end of my rope! They’re in the car. We’re about to go somewhere, but I just had to like take a minute to come inside and fucking… yell. My four-year-old is like mad at the world, which means that he’s mad at me because he just directs it all at me? My three-year-old woke up from a nap, like, just in a garbage mood. Just screaming and yelling and fighting and crying and I don’t know what’s going on. And my one-year-old wants boobs, like, all the time. She doesn’t wanna be in the car. She wants boobs. So they’re all in the car. The only configuration that will work with three car seats in our car is the three- and the four-year-old sitting next to each other? That’s gonna be a fucking shitshow. They’re gonna fight the entire way— [Theresa laughs.] —to pick up what we need to pick up, and the entire way home. ‘Cause they’re not gonna get out of the car because can’t because COVID. So— [Biz laughs.] Just gonna be like 40 minutes of screaming. So this is my chance to scream. [Screams.] [Someone applauds.] Fuck this! Thank you.

biz

Yes!

crosstalk

Theresa: Oh yeah. Biz: You know what?

biz

When I “woo,” that’s actually what the woo is supposed to sound like? [Laughs.]

theresa

Right.

biz

Yes, we are still taking screams! Yes, you may call and yell into the void! Yes, yes, yes! That is—good job!

theresa

Yes.

biz

You’re—god! You’re doing such a great job!

theresa

Yeah. You are.

biz

You… live in a house of… tough time-ness right now! Right? Like I’d like to say you live in some sort of weird, like, “Everybody’s four and under hellscape in the middle of a pandemic where there is no peace; there is no break; everybody’s yelling all the time and you have to regulate all of their emotions”? But instead I decided to say something else. [Laughs.]

theresa

Oh my god. It’s really true. I—yes. You’re—yeah. What you’re doing right now is probably technically impossible? So… whatever you’re doing, that’s okay. And you’re doing a good job. And… call and scream. Call and scream.

biz

Yeah. Just screaming, screaming, screaming.

theresa

And I just need to share. This just reminds me of— [Biz laughs.] —me mentioning to my mom at some point that I had been crying. And her response was just—and this is my mom. She’s been on the show. She’s a therapist. Her response was just, “Yeah. Go ahead. Go ahead and cry.” Like, she was just like, “Yeah. Mm-hm.”

crosstalk

Theresa: “That’s really all you can do sometimes.” Biz: I think it’s—yeah! [Laughs.]

theresa

Like— [Laughs.]

biz

I think it’s weirder if you’re not crying by this stage of the pandemic? Right? If you haven’t— [Theresa laughs.] —just been crying or screaming, let me just say then—it is okay to do so. [Laughs.]

crosstalk

Theresa: Yes. It is okay. Yeah. Biz: If you’re waiting for somebody—

biz

—to tell you it’s okay or to tell you that no one will think less of you for crying or screaming, let us be the ones to tell you that.

theresa

Yes. And that you’re not alone. That we’re doing it, too.

biz

Yeah. We’re all crying. We’re all screaming. You are doing… a good job. And Theresa? You are also doing a good job. I… just speaking of weekly surprises, just that… you’re here and I know you might not—you might disappear on me! [Theresa emits light, nervous scream.]

crosstalk

Theresa: I’m gonna try not to! Biz: But for now I’m just gonna—

biz

I’m just gonna cling to you!

theresa

I would not move this for an archery lesson.

biz

Oh, good.

theresa

Let me assure you.

biz

But if you had to, I would rearrange the entire world for you! [Theresa laughs.] Theresa, you’re doing a really good job.

theresa

Thank you, Biz. So are you.

biz

Thank you. And I will talk to you next week!

theresa

Byeee!

biz

Oh. Guys, this was a show, wasn’t it? As always it was so nice to see Theresa, and as always it is so nice to talk to very smart, talented people. I thought that Surge was such a great documentary in showing the impact and the effects of the 2016 election and while there’re so many things about the last four years that make smoke just come out of my ears, but it is nice to focus on this positive. The number of women; the number of women of color; different ages; different backgrounds; and—y’know, I’ll take it! Different parties! Let’s just fill it up! [Laughs.] Fill it up with the ladies! Y’know, as well as, we had our first trans representative. We have had so many people that are part of the LGBTQ community also running and also succeeding and I just—I agree. Run, run, run! Run, run, run! You don’t have to run to win! Just run to change the picture. And guys? Look. I’m tired of learning today. Alright? That’s all I wanna take away from today with the exception of… acknowledging what a good job you are all doing. It is really seven months into it, and it’s different for everybody, depending on where you live. Depending on kids in your house. Depending on work. Depending on finances. Depending—bleh, bleh, bleh, bleh, la! It’s really frustration how little has changed. And… it’s okay to feel kind of crazy. It’s okay to feel sad. It’s okay to step into the bathroom and scream as loud as you want to. It is okay to feel angry. It is okay to feel like you are bonding better with your 15-year-old than you ever have in your life? That is okay, too! It is okay if you actually have used some of this time to learn a new skill. Guys? Soon you will see a banjo video! You’re all doing such a good job. And I will talk to you… next week. Bye!

music

“Mama Blues” by Cornbread Ted and the Butterbeans. Strumming acoustic guitar with harmonica and lyrics. _I got the lowdown momma blues_ Got the lowdown momma blues Gots the lowdown momma blues The lowdown momma blues Gots the lowdown momma blues Got the lowdown momma blues You know that’s right [Music fades somewhat, plays in background of dialogue.]

biz

We’d like to thank MaxFun; our producer, Hannah Smith; our husbands, Stefan Lawrence and Jesse Thorn; our perfect children, who provide us with inspiration to say all these horrible things; and of course, you, our listeners. To find out more about the songs you heard on today’s podcast and more about the show, please go to MaximumFun.org/onebadmother. For information about live shows, our book and press, please check out OneBadMotherPodcast.com.

theresa

One Bad Mother is a member of the Maximum Fun family of podcasts. To support the show go to MaximumFun.org/donate. [Music continues for a while before fading out.]

music

A cheerful ukulele chord.

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MaximumFun.org.

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Comedy and culture.

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Artist owned—

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—Audience supported.

About the show

One Bad Mother is a comedy podcast hosted by Biz Ellis and Theresa Thorn about motherhood and how unnatural it sometimes is. We aren’t all magical vessels!

Join us every week as we deal with the thrills and embarrassments of motherhood and strive for less judging and more laughing.

Call in your geniuses and fails: 206-350-9485. For booking and guest ideas, please email onebadmother@maximumfun.org. To keep up with One Bad Mother on social media, follow @onebadmothers on Twitter and Instagram.

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Stream or download episodes directly from our website, or listen via your favorite podcatcher!

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