Transcript
biz ellis
Hi. I’m Biz.
theresa thorn
And I’m Theresa.
biz
Due to the pandemic, we bring you One Bad Mother straight from our homes—including such interruptions as: children! Animal noises! And more! So let’s all get a little closer while we have to be so far apart. And remember—we are doing a good job.
music
“Summoning the Rawk” by Kevin MacLeod. Driving electric guitar and heavy drums. [Continues through dialogue.]
biz
This week on One Bad Mother—when you say “non-traditional parenting,” do you mean like not dressing alike as a family? We talk to the hosts of If These Ovaries Could Talk. Plus, Biz takes a quiz.
crosstalk
Biz and caller: Woooo!
caller
Things are doing—[sighs]. Dammit. Things are going alright here in Kentucky. Just cancelled our vacation and now I’m trying to plan a really super special staycation. And… trying to stay positive and active and get everyone outside. Biz? I wanna let you know that you’re never wooing alone. Bye.
biz
Ah. Thank you. I am enjoying these woos so much. And thank you for calling and wooing and checking in! There’s nothing more real about the pandemic than cancelling your vacation. And good job! The staycation thing? I am trying to focus on my wording these days, and let’s listen to our wording. “I’m trying—” [Laughs.] “—to make it an interesting staycation.” “I’m trying to put a positive spin on it.” Yes. Yes. Okay? Yes! I am, too! And that’s part of being, y’know, a person who wants things to be nice in the world. However, we can also lean on other people to help us do that. ‘Cause 11 years into this, I am really getting burned out on feeling like President of Everyone’s Emotional States. So I say—go for it. Make it fun. But make sure you’re [through laughter] making it fun for yourself. [Singing] It’s time for children to paint my toes! [Laughs.] [Regular voice] Oh, you’re doing such a good job! I really hope that you’re having a nice staycation. Speaking of doing a good job, I just wanna say—[singing] it’s the pandemic and you’re all doing an incredible job! [Regular voice] Really. Essential workers? I am going to forever shout you out. Sometimes I just shout out “Thank you essential workers!” In my sleep. And it startles Stefan and the cats a lot, but they’re getting used to it now. Everybody in the medical profession. Everybody who is out from farmers to people who are picking that produce and vegetables and loading it and people who are working in factories and—I mean, yeah! Every day, everything I touch is the result of an essential worker somewhere. Okay? So thank you and I see you. And you are remarkable? And… most of you are trying to do it all with kids and school returning. Sometimes all on your own. Sometimes with a helpful partner. Sometimes without a helpful partner. And I see you. You’re amazing. And again? I will continue to shout out, [singing] Thank you to the Postal Service! Thank you to people volunteering for the election! [Laughs.] [Regular voice] Hannah’s trying to dance to the song and this song is just not there yet. I’m gonna have to keep working on it. [Singing] Thank you, thank you, thank youuuu! It is time to be active! I know we’ve all been trapped in our [through laughter] houses and we’re going crazy and we want to feel like we can do something! Well, voting is something. [Laughs.] [Regular voice] So! Go and register! Go and find out what your state requires for you to vote! Either in person or by mail! Mm-kay? Stop people when they say the mail-in ballots is going to be fraudulent! Just stop people! Just stop it! Just say, it doesn’t—it—no! No! None of that’s based in truth. So. You are doing a good job and I’m just gonna sit here and take a nice long slip off my soapbox and land [through laughter] into this thing.
biz
Katy Belle—I’m taking her in for her physical. Because—even in a pandemic—we gotta get our vaccines and she just turned 11 so it’s the year of four shots. [Laughs.] She knows this is coming. But usually when we go in to the doctor’s, we fill out a little form when we get there. It’s a questionnaire. And it’s like, y’know, when—you do these—at least in my medical group, you do these the moment you have a baby in your arms, taking it in to a doctor. It’s like, “Are they sleeping? Are they eating? Are they having milk? Are they—y’know—what—how much screen time are they—are they getting less than two hours of screen time a day? Are they having—y’know.” And I—very smugly—have been going along— [Laughs.] Especially the early years. “Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! I’m so great!” [Laughs.] “Yes, yes, yes—They’re just gonna think I’m lying because I’m so great.” And then I got the question— [Laughs.] The questionnaire for Katy Belle’s 11-year-old visit. And I… am so surprised at how fast it feels like it went from being asked “does your child get three servings of calcium a day” to “are they dating?” [Laughs.] I was like, “What?! No!” [Laughs.] The fact that I could check “yes” for “Have I talked to my child about sex and puberty” made me feel a little better when I also had to check, “Yes, my child eats fatty foods like chips more than once a week.” [Laughs.] I answered everything honestly. We ain’t getting the calcium. My kids don’t like that kind of—the milk. They don’t like the dairy. But we’re figuring it out. That said, I just was like—oh my god, we’re about to enter into a whole new world of everything. And it was kind of a little bit of shock to the system. My baby… is growing up. Why not ask if she’s shaving her legs or if she has a fake ID yet? Huh? Huh, medical institution? When does that quiz come? Speaking of things we are not ready for—or things that are not familiar to us—or we may not know about. [Laughs.] I think that possibly—insultingly—ties into— [Laughs.] What we are gonna talk about today, which is… non-traditional parenting. With our very special guests Jaimie Kelton and Robin Hopkins, the producers and hosts of the popular podcast If These Ovaries Could Talk.
music
Banjo strums; cheerful banjo music continues through dialogue.
theresa
Please—take a moment to remember: If you’re friends of the hosts of One Bad Mother, you should assume that when we talk about other moms, we’re talking about you.
biz
If you are married to the host of One Bad Mother, we definitely are talking about you.
theresa
Nothing we say constitutes professional parenting advice.
biz
Biz and Theresa’s children are brilliant, lovely, and exceedingly extraordinary.
theresa
Nothing said on this podcast about them implies otherwise. [Banjo music fades out.] [Biz and guests Jaimie Kelton and Robin Hopkins repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss the weekly topic.]
biz
Guys? Today I am joined by Jaimie Kelton and Robin Hopkins, who are the producers and hosts of the popular and award-winning podcast If These Ovaries Could Talk. Their mission is to normalize, elevate, and celebrate LGBTQ families, confirming they are just like other families. Do you mean children poop in your tub, too?! And while shining a spotlight on all the different ways nontraditional families get made, Jaimie and Robin share their personal fertility journeys and their parenting adventures. And guys? They also have a new book out, which we are going to promote the hell out of today and probably into the future. [Singsong voice] Welcome, Jaimie and Robin! [Claps.]
jaimie kelton
Thank you so much! Thank you! We’re all about the musical welcomes. I have to say, pooping in the tub? I just literally—
robin hopkins
Just talked about that.
crosstalk
Jaimie: Wait, no, literally. Biz: Did you?
jaimie
My— [Laughs.] You know the swimmy diaper? I’m on vacation right now. We’re at the beach. You know swimmy diapers don’t hold in pee. We know this. You’ve been peed on with a swimmy diaper. But we just were changing my son right before this started out of his swimmy diaper on the bed—as you do—and we didn’t realize there was poop in it ‘cause why would you.
biz
Why?
jaimie
Why? And then, y’know, my wife—she’s doing it as quickly as she can so that we can get this—so I can get set up here for the recording. [Biz laughs.] And as she’s walking out, I walk—step—take a step forward and I almost stepped into a pile of poop that had fallen to the floor. So, y’know, my wife—
robin
Jaimie, I wish you had stepped in the poop. It makes the story better.
crosstalk
Robin: I’m so embarrassed. Jaimie: I’m so glad I didn’t! I’m so— Biz: I know! I’m gonna—Hannah, edit it so she steps in the poop. [All laugh.]
jaimie
I shoulda said “I stepped in the poop.” And even my wife said, “You should tell them you stepped in the poop. There’s your content! There’s your content right there!” That’s what she said. [Laughs.] [Biz laughs.]
robin
There’s your content. [Laughs.]
biz
Well, yeah. The pooping in the tub thing is never written about in a book. And it’s such a surprise when it happens. But today we are not here to talk about pooping in the tub. At least not yet. I wanna start with asking what we ask all our guests, which is—who lives in your house? Robin, let’s start with you. Who lives in your house?
robin
Okay. So there’s me, obviously. My wife, Mary. My lady-friend. [Multiple people laugh.] My daughter, Maxine; my son, Henry; a cat named Lucy who likes to pee in the bed; a fish named Steve, and the other fish, Red, is Dead. [Jaimie laughs.]
biz
I have a cat named Steve! And he’s down here on the floor!
robin
Shut up!
biz
He’s named after Steve of Stranger Things.
jaimie
Whoa.
robin
I love—I love like weird people names for pets. Like “Jimmy” for a dog. Like, love it.
biz
Yeah! No, how exciting! Who cares about your children? You have a fish named Steve!
robin
By the way, I can’t wait ‘til Steve passes on. I said it.
biz
I—uh, yeah, no. I—look. The fish? I have a long history—
robin
[Sighs.] So much work!
biz
—of guppies. The only thing living in our tank now is a snail. That’s been there— [Multiple people laugh.] —much longer than a snail should have ever lived. It is this aquatic snail. And it is so happy that everything is dead. And I’m like, “Please die so I can get this counter space back.” Years!
robin
I know! I just wanna give that fish tank away so badly! We went away for five weeks at the beginning of the pandemic and I was like, “Listen, Henry. If the fish doesn’t make it—listen—like, maybe we should give it away now!” [Biz laughs.] And he was like, “No.” And he was like, “No, let’s just, like—let’s take our luck. Let’s see what happens.”
jaimie
Robin.
robin
And that fucking fish lived!
jaimie
You have to tell everybody why you got that fish.
biz
Oh, yeah.
crosstalk
Robin: Okay. Alright. I got the—okay. Jaimie: This is—there’s a—yeah.
robin
So Jaimie and I were on the cover of Gay Parents Magazine. And I— [Biz laughs.] —so I said to the kids, I said—each of us with our families were in the magazine. So I said, “Guys! We’re gonna be in a magazine!” And Henry, y’know—third grade—he goes, “What magazine?” [Biz laughs.] And I said, Gay Parents Magazine. And he goes, “Oh.” And then— [Biz laughs.] And then like five minutes later he was like, “I want some boys in the house.” Because even our cat is a girl. And I was just like, [sighs.] So we go to the fish store. [Multiple people laugh.] ‘Cause I was like, how about we get a boy fish. So we go to the fish store and there’s this lady who’s like helping us get the fish and I said, “So which tank has all the boy fish?” And she goes, “You can’t—” And she’s behind him? And so I’m like this and I’m like, “That one! They’re all boys in there, right?” And she goes, “Uh… yeah. Yeah. They’re—they’re all boys.” And I was like— [Laughs.] So we have no idea. But Steven and Red, both boys. [Laughs.]
biz
Nice! I—poor—hi, Jaimie, I know you’re here, too. But I’m gonna talk about fish a little more.
jaimie
Hey, I don’t care.
biz
Fun fact that I learned about fish. Guppies. Not only can guppies change their sex—‘k? So they’re—if you—I had boys, they can change their sex and then once inseminated, they can store and self-fertilize themselves. So the day I woke up to 20 baby guppies in my tank— [Someone gasps.]
jaimie
I thought you were gonna say “in your womb.” [Robin laughs.]
biz
Yeah. I know. [Laughs.] [Inaudible] Just hanging out. I was like, “I’m so glad I cannot store and self-inseminate because that might be just horrible accidents waiting to happen.” But! I will never have another guppy in this house as a result of this.
robin
I’m so glad you told me that.
biz
I know. You’re welcome.
crosstalk
Robin: I didn’t know that! Thank you! Jaimie: Wow.
biz
And also—does giving away the fish for adoption, does that mean flushing it down the toilet?
robin
No, I was legit gonna see if I could give it away to some other sucker in the building? There’s 80 apartments. Somebody’s got a kid younger than mine that’s like feeling bad and wants a fish. [Biz laughs.]
jaimie
Yeah. It’s true. I also feel like maybe guppies are more evolved than us? As a species for that?
robin
We gotta get a guppy on our show and talk to them about their family.
jaimie
We should! “So how do you—how did you make your thousand babies?” [Multiple people laugh.]
robin
“Tell us about making babies alone. Tell us about that!” [Multiple people laugh.] We just—all we’d hear is like bubbles. We’d like, “Boop! Boop! Boop-boop! Boop!”
biz
Jaimie? Welcome to One Bad Mother.
jaimie
Thank you.
biz
Who lives in your house?
jaimie
So myself, as you know. My wife, Anne. My lady-friend, as Robin likes to say. [Multiple people laugh.] Our daughter, who’s six, Rose. Our son, who’s two, Orion. And that’s it. We just—we had a dog, but she just passed away recently.
biz
I’m so sorry!
crosstalk
Jaimie: So that’s sad. I know. It’s very—yeah. Roxy. Robin: She’s hanging out with—she’s hanging out with Red. Our dead fish. Biz: Yeah. I am—
biz
Oh, Roxy! Good baby!
jaimie
Yeah. She’s cute. Anyway.
biz
So—
crosstalk
Robin: Way to bring us down, Jaimie! Biz: Wait a second. I’m—
biz
But I’m more startled—wait! You guys are lesbians?! I’m just kidding. [All laugh.]
jaimie
I know.
robin
We’re like—are we?
crosstalk
Jaimie: You’d never know! Robin: Oh, right! Right! Biz: What? What?!
jaimie
You’d never know. Then that’s the point.
robin
Other than the “wife” thing.
biz
Other than the “wife” thing. Alright. Let’s get into the podcast. If These Ovaries Could Talk. Take us back to… when… you guys came up with this, and how it’s grown!
robin
Alright. So Jaimie had some issues trying to get pregnant. So her wife was the first one to carry and then she wanted to carry and she was all, “Oh, this is gonna be easy-peasy!” Yeah. Cut to unexplained infertility. And then Jaimie weeping in a corner and acupuncture and getting books and like and then changing doctors. And she was like—and she couldn’t find anywhere—a podcast or a source or resource—where they were speaking to LGBTQ folks.
biz
[Deadpan] What? I’m so surprised.
crosstalk
Robin: Right? Shocking! Jaimie: Yeah, right. Not even a website! [Biz laughs.]
jaimie
Not even a website!
crosstalk
Biz and Robin: Yeah.
robin
Do you wanna cut in, Jaimie, or you want me to keep going?
jaimie
No, I just cut in. That was my two cents.
crosstalk
Jaimie: Go ahead. You’re doing good. You’re doing good. Although I wasn’t weeping in a corner. I love you. I was very strong. I was really strong throughout it all. I’m like a warrior. Okay, go ahead. Go ahead. Robin: No, I like it. You keep cutting in. I love it. Thanks, Jaimie. Thanks. You were in my story. In my story you stepped on the poop and you were weeping in the corner. Don’t wreck our narrative. Okay. Okay. [Biz laughs.]
robin
A warrior who was weeping in a corner. And. So she has this idea, like, we’ll create a podcast. And she was like, “Mm, Robin!” Now keep in mind, we don’t know each other very well. We are in the same circle of lesbians, like you do. [Biz laughs.]
crosstalk
Jaimie: Lesbians moms. Robin: And every once a year there’s like this— Biz: A pod. [Laughs.]
robin
—gay family—it was a pod before pods. And there was this gay family picnic through the Gay & Lesbian Center and we would go once a year and that’s where I would see Jaimie. I’d seen her probably three years. And she goes, “You wanna start this podcast?” And Jaimie didn’t know that I had just finished like a creative project. I’d just finished up this like digital short series and I had like time on my hand and I was like, “Yeah, let’s do this.”
jaimie
This is where I have to cut in. This is where I have to cut in. ‘Cause I knew—we’re both entertainers. I’m from the acting world. Robin’s from the acting world. I knew she was an actor. I knew we were in the same kind of stratosphere. Which is why I came to her about it. But I didn’t know— [Robin laughs.] Like, I’m really good at like coming up with ideas and never acting on them? That’s like kind of my mojo? That’s what I do? That’s how I live, right? I didn’t realize that Robin is the exact opposite. So I came to her with this idea for a podcast ‘cause I had just discovered podcasts so I was like, “Ooh, that would be fun!” And then we had—I met with her at her office for an hour. And we had 20 google docs made by that point. And we were talking about—well, we have to start a Facebook page. We have to start an Instagram page. We have to start a—dadadaddadadah. Okay. We’re gonna get it all—And I was like, ‘Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I wasn’t really gonna make this.” And then that’s how this happened. [Biz laughs.]
biz
So you guys have become friends while making the show!
jaimie
Yes.
robin
Yeah.
biz
Theresa and I didn’t really know each other at all. And so we became really good friends… through this. And I think that—it does make for a fun dynamic! Don’t you think? The like… you don’t know what may—the other person might be thinking when it comes to a topic! And I… I love that! I think that is a lot of fun! So you start the podcast. Did it turn out that— [Laughs.] This is such a dumb question. Did it turn out that it was needed? [Laughs.] [All laugh.]
robin
No. No. We did one episode and we shut it down! We were like, “Well, that was fun.” [Jaimie laughs.]
jaimie
No, it wasn’t needed at all. It was very needed, apparently. I mean, like, that’s the reason we made it. Honestly. We knew it was needed. We knew it was a void, because I went searching. She went searching. Even when we brought it up at the—‘cause what Robin didn’t mention is when I brought it up to Robin, we were at Cowgirl, the bar, where there was a kid-friendly space in the back. [Robin laughs.] I’m saying that in quotations ‘cause that’s what we did every picnic after the picnics. We didn’t really spend much time at the picnic.
robin
And we were like, you got a sense of this picnic. Let’s move. To the bar.
jaimie
Yeah. So we all hung out—but what she didn’t mention is that we were with all of our other gay mom friends. It’s just a bunch of gay mom friends with our crazy kids. And even when we were talking about it at the bar, that it—first day, all of the moms chimed in and were like, “Oh my god, yeah! You have to do this! I’ll be on it! I’ll be on it!” And then that’s how we made our first season! So— [Laughs.] Y’know, like, we wanna tell our stories! And so yeah. There was a need. There was a need.
biz
Well, turns out it’s good if you tell your stories.
robin
Go figure!
biz
So the focus of the podcast and the book—you guys used the term “non-traditional.” And I was wondering if you guys could define—for you—“non-traditional.”
robin
I mean, it’s pretty much—wouldn’t you say, Jaimie, anybody other than like cis-heterosexual, y’know— [Biz laughs.]
jaimie
I’m gonna bring that word in that you never say, Robin, but you always have on the tip of your tongue. “Heteronormative.”
crosstalk
Biz: Ooh! Robin: God, I can never say it! Jaimie: It’s not heteronormative.
jaimie
It’s any family that does not fit the heteronormative mold? And I—and Robin and I both hate saying terms like that because then [inaudible] on this—we don’t do that. Like, that’s why we say “not-“ We actually—we came up with “non-traditional” ‘cause we couldn’t think of a better way to describe it. [Biz laughs.] And since we’ve started the podcast, we’ve heard from a bunch of folks better ways to say it. But we’re sticking with—
robin
We’re sticking with it.
jaimie
“Non-traditional.” Just because… we’re non-traditional. I don’t know.
biz
No, I like it, because it’s broad. It’s not as—it’s not limiting. Which is incredibly nice.
jaimie
It’s not your mom and pop family. It’s not… y’know, there’s so many families and it’s not just—we’re not talking just gay families, either! There’s—there’s single parent families. Grandparents. Go ahead, Robin.
robin
We had this woman, Liz, on the podcast in one of the early seasons. And she has—she’s a single mom by choice who had a baby whose kid has—shares the same donor as one of my kids. And—
biz
Whaaaat! [Jaimie laughs.]
robin
Yeah, and it was a fantastic—like, and it was when we talked about our journey and like this—I mean, some of those families like vacation together. We haven’t, but we see people when they come to town. But that’s—she’s a non-traditional family. And she’s part of our non-traditional family. Y’know. It’s—and so there’s—it’s a really broad tent. It’s really interesting.
jaimie
But also—the—we’ve had two single moms by choice. And maybe I’m wrong. Maybe there’s more than that. But their journey has been even tougher than a lot of ours in the world, because single moms by choice are really, really persecuted in the world. It’s crazy! Even that—even Liz. She had an episode—
robin
Oh god, that story!
jaimie
—where she was trying to get a passport for her son. He was a baby. And the guy who was issuing the passport, she didn’t put a name as a father. She left it blank. And this guy wouldn’t let her go. Wouldn’t let her go. “No, he has to have a father. He has to have a father! You have to put a father’s name down!” And she was like, “He doesn’t have a father. He doesn’t have a—” Like, she went back and forth with this guy for—like, 15 minutes she said.
crosstalk
Robin: In front of her kid, by the way. In front of her kid. Jaimie: And finally— Biz: Nice.
jaimie
Yeah! And the finally she said—she broke down and said, “I don’t know who the father is! Just put nothing!” I don’t know what she said, but like—
robin
She said, “I don’t know who the father is.” And then the guy was like, “Okay. So now I can process it.”
crosstalk
Robin: Which—so he— Biz: “Slut.” Jaimie: But he had to hear— Biz: [Laughs.] Sorry. I just, like—I mean—right. Which she’s not. Right? Like— Jaimie: Exactly! He had to hear her admit that she’s a slut. Basically. Jamie and Robin: No.
jaimie
She used a donor! It was a very intentional family. She did it on purpose.
biz
I know.
jaimie
Yeah. So. And—yeah. Even our other—the other single mom we interviewed, same issues. Same sort of issues that she had even in the medical world with trying to be a single mother by choice. Even though she was gay, and—but she didn’t go that route. Anyway.
robin
But it’s like, that’s the thing. That’s the thing, when we started the podcast we were talking a lot about the process of making our families and we realized really early on that these stories are the ones that need to be highlighted and told. Like, what people have to go through to make an intentional family and what we have to walk through. And what people don’t know. Like, just people have no idea that there’s no way for an LGBTQ family to be made without pain. Period, full stop.
jaimie
Without it? There’s no accidents.
crosstalk
Biz: Yeah. I know. I love it. Jaimie: None of us are accidents. Robin: Yeah.
biz
I mean, I love it. Not that you have to pay. [Multiple people laugh.] I love it that that— [Laughs.] “Ha ha!”
robin
You deserve it!
biz
You deserve it with your lifestyle choices and your lady-friends! [Multiple people laugh.] Uh, no. [All laugh.] God, people are just horrible.
crosstalk
Robin and Jaimie: Yeah.
jaimie
We’re not not trying.
biz
I wanna get us into an opportunity to talk more about some of these challenges. So the book… If These Ovaries Could Talk. It is so delightful.
robin
Yay!
biz
And at the same time—
jaimie
Thank you!
biz
It has a lot of information in it. And some of that information isn’t necessarily like, [through laughter] “Hey! Come gather round!” [Someone laughs.]
biz
But it’s worth it. So the first part of the book, you interview all these people. Sharing their difficulties and complications. Trying to plan their families. I guess you go into it thinking, “Oh, I probably know what everybody’s gonna say.” [Laughs.] And then… you’re surprised!
robin
And you don’t.
biz
So—yeah! And you don’t! Yeah. Is there anything that you were like, “Wow. That’s—"
robin
I mean, so many. So many. I mean, like—that whole first half is about how you’re gonna do it and your path and like we just had, y’know, story after story—like, heartwarming stories. Heartbreaking stories. Like, y’know, a story of a family that lost a foster child to cancer. Story of two gay men who were like afraid of being out with their family. Afraid to travel. That someone was gonna think they took a child. Y’know, it’s just like, heartwarming. Like y’know, just—but also like what people have to overcome. Like, Judy Gould’s in the book talking about being on the first Rosie O’Donnell cruise and these families being together for the very first time and being able to be out as a family. Like, some of these people hid—this was the ‘90s—some of these people hid 51 weeks out of the year. I have goosebumps just like talking about it. Because it was so—like, and it’s moving just talking about it again. Like, y’know. Go ahead, Jaimie.
jaimie
I also—no, I wanna say also—as triumphant and as harrowing as some of people’s journeys were, it’s also just—they were also just, there were a lot of normal journeys, too. No problems. Just—I mean, the only difference is they had to buy the sperm or they had to get the surrogate. [Robin laughs.] And it went smooth and it was boom, boom, boom, boom, bow, and now I’m a parent. And I don’t have hang-ups. Y’know, so it runs the gamut. [Biz laughs.] Y’know? Like, every family. And that’s—I think that’s the point. And we share that in the book. We share the families that went through difficult journeys and the families that had really easy journeys. And I think that’s the beauty of it. And I think that’s really just the point of this whole thing is—we’re just like all of—we’re just like everybody else! It’s not different. And everybody knows that, too, I think, deep down.
biz
Yeah, no. At this point, everybody should know that.
robin
Should. Should. [Biz laughs.]
biz
It’s like… ugh! [Laughs humorlessly.]
jaimie
You would hope. You would hope. But yeah.
biz
So—no. Well, I wanna—let’s talk just about that. One of the things that you say at the opening of your book is that you will also—the book will also serve sort of as a window into like the lesbian couple’s house down the street. Right? [Multiple people laugh.] And I would—before reading the book, I was like—don’t, again, don’t pop this bubble for me. Everything’s going great in there. [All laugh.] Everything is balanced and equal and wonderful!
robin
They talk a lot and they communicate!
biz
Yes! It’s so great! And they eat a lot of fish? And have white wine? [Multiple people laugh.] I don’t know!
jaimie
They do. They really do. And olives.
biz
And olives. Yes! And olives.
jaimie
We love olives.
robin
Do we? [Multiple people laugh.]
biz
With that—I do too!
robin
I don’t. It’s okay.
jaimie
No, Robin doesn’t. I do.
crosstalk
Robin: I don’t like—I only like— Biz: One of you’s not a lesbian. Jaimie: I—see? There ya go.
robin
Of those things, I only like the white wine. So that’s fine. [Multiple people laugh.]
biz
Alright. So… along with peeping in your windows— [Jaimie laughs.] —there was also the talk of etiquette. Now, we on this show… have many opportunities to talk about garbage that falls out of people’s mouths. [Robin laughs.] All the time. Even just the moment—if you go through the process of having—carrying a baby in your body, that just starts it right there. Y’know? It starts—it’s just like—oh, are there children in your life? We get to [through laughter] talk all kind of garbage to you. And at you. So tell me a little bit about… the LGBTQ experience when it comes to that. Just so I can say, “Oh my god!” [All laugh.]
jaimie
I think this is all very—well… people mean—don’t mean anything when they say things. It’s microaggressions. It’s not—y’know, they don’t realize what they’re saying. And a lot of times the things that come to me from what people say are from some of my closest friends. That they just don’t even realize what they just said. Even my mother, at one point, said something that I was like, “Are you kidding me?” But like—you hear, “So who’s the real mom?” Or “Which one’s the mom?” Or “Who’s the mom of which one?” Which—we’re both the moms. We’re both the real moms! Doesn’t matter who birthed the child. I’m the mom. That’s how it goes. And also people will say—because in my family, my wife birthed my daughter and I birthed my son. With the same donor. So they share a genetic tie. But one of us doesn’t share a genetic tie to one of the kids each? And people will say, like, if I’m having issues with my daughter—who I’m not genetically tied to—I’ve had best friends say, “Well, she’s not yours.” Or when I say, “Oh my god, he’s so easy!” “Well, he’s yours. That’s why!” People say that. Well-meaning folks [through laughter] say the craziest things. [Biz laughs.]
biz
It is crazy!
jaimie
It is. But you’re not thinking!
robin
But you know what’s also interesting, too, is like—I—my wife is not genetically tied to either of the kids. I had both of them but they each have different donors. So they are, in essence, half-siblings and it’s all very complicated and mixed up. But no one’s ever said any of that to me. But I think Jaimie and I… like, that’s part of what’s amazing about the book? Is what’s laid out is all these different experiences. From positive ones to negative ones to that. And Jaimie and I are both really, really open. And so like people will say dumb shit to us all the time and we’re like, it’s fine. You don’t know what you’re doing. I’ll walk you through it. Like, I’m the blonde mom. That’s the other one. People call me “Mary” all the time. I’m like,” Nope, that’s the other one.” Like, and it’s fine. Like, y’know, I sign all the stuff to the school as “the blonde mom.” Just so people—‘cause they don’t know how to separate us. So we’re open and we’re educators and it doesn’t bother us. But there are other people in the community who—it does bother them. Or like, like we interviewed this one woman who had a—they adopted a biracial daughter. And the questions they would get were so loaded and she just said she felt like—she said, “Maybe if it’s the first question that came to you, you should think that I’ve probably been asked that about a hundred times already.” And she said she felt like a circus act. Like, people were like—a freak show. Like people were like, y’know, and she’s like, “What is it you really wanna know?” And I think—I think the etiquette part of it that you were mentioning is like, what’s your relationship to this person when you’re talking to them? Like, what is it you really want? And like, what’s the space in which you’re talking? If you’re having cocktails, like, just ask the question you wanna ask. I don’t know.
jaimie
Do you wanna know if I feel as close to my daughter as I feel to my son? Ask me that! Right? I—it’s okay! And that’s me, though. That’s not everyone. So it’s… you gotta know your audience.
biz
Yeah. Your audience. I agree!
robin
But isn’t that just like anything else? Like, you have to monitor yourself at work. Like, don’t be an idiot! Don’t say dumb stuff! Like, y’know. How hard is that?
crosstalk
Jaimie: But also—people—y’know, but also people have to learn. Biz: I don’t know if you’ve been out in the world. [Laughs.]
jaimie
And, y’know, you gotta ask the questions. You’re never gonna know if you don’t ask the questions. Y’know, and don’t come at it with hate.
robin
Yeah.
jaimie
Don’t hate us! [Robin laughs.]
biz
I mean, I think that’s what makes the forgiveness part easier? When you can tell it’s just—I’m with you. Most of the time, they’re harmless. There’ve been lots of times where I’ve made a joke to somebody, like at a bookstore or somewhere, and then I’m like, “Oh, wow. That could’ve come out—if she’s having a bad day or if he’s having a bad day, that’s not gonna read well.” Right? Like, and you’re right. Things come from places of just—sometimes people just wanna say something? And sometimes they’re genuinely interested, but that’s just not how we’re set up to communicate in this country. And… and I think… having that barometer of… “Is this just something I should respond to or is this something ugly?” I think—I think that that makes a huge difference! But we also say— [Laughs.] Don’t forget—everybody’s got something going on? Especially right now? And be prepared for somebody not to think you’re cute! Y’know. When you ask something. Y’know?
jaimie
I also think that—it’s all good. My—like—my mom—bless her heart, she’s listening to this. I love you, mom. I love you to death. But she even said to me—I had a hard time getting pregnant, which Robin touched upon—my friend, who’s the same age as me, became a grandma during the time when I was trying. [Robin laughs.] We’re the same age. When I was trying. And my mom said to me—I told my mom, “Oh my god. She’s pregnant. Can you believe it? I mean, her daughter’s pregnant. Can you believe this?” And my mom said, “Oh my god, she’s gonna be a mom before you are. I can’t even—she’s gonna be a grandma before you’re a mom.” And I said, “Mom, I’m a mom. I’m a mom!” Y’know? But also—
crosstalk
Robin: Ohhh. Ohhh! Jaimie: I come—like, I don’t—yeah. Exactly.
jaimie
But I don’t judge my mom for that. I love my mom. She didn’t know what she was saying. Everybody comes at it with your own ideas of… who people are. And even when I see another family out in the world, I have my own preconceived notions of who they are. Yeah. It’s in my head. Sometimes it comes out of my mouth. What we have to do is be able to be like, “Oh my god, I’m so sorry.”
crosstalk
Jaimie: I know you’re a mom! Robin: Just clean it up! Just clean it up. Clean it up! Clean it up! Biz: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah! Clean it up! Clean up your mess.
robin
Yeah, Jaimie and I made some mistakes early on in the early seasons. We made some mistakes, like, with guests. And we cleaned it up. And we learned. And we talked to people and we learned and we were like, “Okay. We won’t do that again.”
biz
Exactly. So! Part two of the book is after a baby is in your house. [Laughs.] [Multiple people laugh.] I do love the idea of just like, “Ding-dong! Baby!” Anyway. There’s a baby in your house. Now what? So you talk about coming out as a family and all of these different topics. Was there anything—this is a sort of a personal—as a writer—the writers of this book as well as hosting this podcast. When you were revisiting your own stories, what—was there anything that suddenly you found yourself looking at differently or coming at differently once you started writing it or talking about it in this format? ‘Cause you know, there’s like—there’s talking to your friend or telling the same story over and over again, and then you may have learned or have grown or have just experienced something else.
robin
Only in the sense that like we’ve had time to process all these stories as we’ve talked to each and every guest? So by the time we got to writing the book, I feel like it was just—we were compiling all the things that we had learned in these two years. Hence the second part of the title, The Things We’ve Learned About Making an LGBTQ Family. So it’s like—like, for me, one of the—in the second half of the book, one of the chapters that really stands out that’s like one of my favorites is “Being Out as a Family.” And that chapter is so… important because as a single person or just in a couple, without the kids, you can choose to hide. And you can be like—if you choose to pass or if you can pass, like it’s not always possible for everyone, but if you can pass you can be like, “I don’t know that I feel like talking about this right now. And I’m just gonna let the Uber driver think whatever he thinks. That yes, I have a boyfriend and he’s very handsome.” Like, I don’t give a crap about what he thinks.
jaimie
Before kids.
robin
Yeah. But then once you have the kids, they’re always watching. And hearing all these stories from people and thinking about my experiences of like, internalized homophobia that I had that I had to overcome. Like, I had to overcome that coming out as a gay person but then as a family member, too. Like, you can’t not say “wife.” You can’t not say, like—
jaimie
Lesbian.
robin
Yeah. You can’t not say any of these things and you have to like in the daycare setting you’re interviewing and going, “How do you feel about same-sex couples?” Like it forces you to really confront yourself so that you can be the best person you can be for your kids. Y’know. I mean, we’re still gonna go yell at them for other reasons? But like I’d have to try to model this.
jaimie
Yeah. Yeah, no. I’m on the same page as you, Robin. When we started this podcast, my main thing was just showing people how we make our babies because I went through infertility and I wanted to just help people through the process. And I really didn’t think I had much to say on any of these issues! [Biz laughs.]
robin
And I’d be like, Jaimie, you have plenty to say. I was like, Jaimie, you’ve got a lot to say. Don’t worry about it.
jaimie
Yeah. And then when we sat down to write our stories—or when I sat down to write my stories—I couldn’t believe how much I had to say. It’s really prevalent in my life. And so yes, what Robin said, yes, you have to be out and proud for your children’s sake. And that’s a very different thing than being childless gay person in the world. You don’t—you can hide. We can hide. Not everybody can hide. And so that. But also… there’s one story that really stuck out to me when I was writing it. I don’t remember what chapter it was. Robin might remember. But it’s—my daughter had a kid kind of bully her for not having a dad when we were walking to school one day and she was goading her and goading her and the nanny that was walking with this kid finally like shut it down and said, “You know she doesn’t have a dad. Stop messing with her.” Y’know, and then it stopped and they started talking about poopoo like they normally do. And then as I was writing the story… literally as I’m writing the story, I started thinking about the Pride Parade in New York that we had just witnessed. And how I realized that—y’know, it doesn’t matter that there’s not a man in my child’s—there’s not a father in my child’s life. We have two parents that love her and everything. But also, we have the community. We have the LGBTQ community that is all of the… everything I love about humanity? In one thing. It’s love. It’s acceptance. It’s caring. It’s colorful. It’s eclectic. This is what I love. This is what I want to instill in my children. And so, no. I don’t have a father figure. But I have a whole community. Behind us. Helping us raise our children. And my—when I ask my daughter, my six-year-old, what’s your favorite day of the year? She says Pride. The Pride Parade. The Pride Parade.
crosstalk
Robin: ‘Cause we get to go to a bar called “Cowgirl.” Jaimie: Because—[Laughs.] Biz: Of course! Of course!
biz
Yeah. We all go to a bar and we like get to—
crosstalk
Robin: And that is why. And that is what we instill in our children. And glitter. Jaimie: There’s rainbows everywhere. Y’know. Yeah, exactly. Biz: There’s fucking rainbows and unicorns. Absolutely!
jaimie
And that’s— [Biz laughs.] I don’t know! Like, I realized I had a lot to say, basically. And also… no matter how you raise your kids, as long as you’re doing it with so much love and teaching them acceptance, you’re doing a good job.
biz
Exactly. Yessss!
jaimie
And to be kind. I’ll add that. Sorry.
biz
Just be fucking nice, everybody.
crosstalk
Biz: Don’t be a jerk. Robin: Come on. Come on. Jaimie: Be kind!
robin
Just clean it up, for god’s sakes! Clean it up!
biz
I know! Don’t make us yell at you. [Jaimie laughs.] Ladies, thank you so much. [Robin laughs.] And I’m so glad you’re sticking around for the genius and fail part of our show. Again, guys, the book is called If These Ovaries Could Talk: The Things We’ve Learned About Making an LGBTQ Family. And that is available for preorder and we will make sure that there is a link. Go get it! And please go listen to the podcast. It is a—you already know how much fun that’s gonna be. [Multiple people laugh.] By listening to this. Now… we will be right back with genius and fails.
music
“Ones and Zeroes” by “Awesome.” Steady, driving electric guitar with drum and woodwinds. [Music fades out.]
music
Laid-back guitar music plays in the background plays in background of dialogue.
biz
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theresa
Hey, you know what it’s time for! This week’s genius and fails! This is the part of the show where we share our genius moment of the week, as well as our failures, and feel better about ourselves by hearing yours. You can share some of your own by calling 206-350-9485. That’s 206-350-9485.
biz
Genius fail time. Thank you guys for joining us. I am going to start this week.
clip
[Dramatic, swelling music in background.] Biz: Wow! Oh my God! Oh my God! I saw what you did! Oh my God! I’m paying attention! Wow! You, mom, are a genius. Oh my God, that’s fucking genius! [Biz and Theresa repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss their respective genius moments of the week.]
biz
So… okay. We’re about three weeks away from school. [Laughs.] “School.” Quote-unquote. Learning from the house. And I was like, alright. I gotta get us back on some kind of routine. I have to at least remind them that it’s not the Switch all day with me. ‘Cause I will play the Switch all day with my children ‘cause I am—
jaimie
That’s a video game? [Robin laughs.]
biz
[Makes beeping noises.] Alright. Anyway. So— [Laughs.] So I’ve been slowly introducing different things, and this week I was like—alright. My six-year-old knows how to read but he won’t do it. [Multiple people laugh.] So—and my daughter reads a ton. And so I’m just like, alright. But they’re all screened out. So I’m gonna do one of those like library reading challenge charts. For two weeks. ‘K? I am such a genius! So I—it’s just—he has to read one book a day. ‘K? Which is not a huge deal. My daughter has to read three chapters a day. Which for her? Not a big deal. And there’ll be a kickoff prize. Kickoff like they do at the library. And then on Saturday—if you’ve done all your books—there will be another prize. ‘K? And then at the end of the second week, there will be another prize. And—get this—you can read bonus books and bonus books will count towards something else exciting! Small prize. A few more? Extra TV or Switch time! A few more? Bigger prize. So I just wanna say—everybody in the house is reading because we are all incredibly competitive. [Multiple people laugh.] And so— [Laughs.] My children are As. They are— [Laughs.] They are type As across the board. So everybody’s reading and that makes me very happy.
crosstalk
Biz: So there ya go. Thank you! Thank you! Robin: Genius. Jaimie: Good for you! Good job! Good job!
jaimie
I think I need your model.
biz
I’m so amazing. So! [Laughs.]
jaimie
You are.
biz
By the way, I’m doing it at all of you. Okay. Robin, I believe you were gonna share a genius with us today.
robin
Yes. Alright. My genius is much—is very simple. And I call it “throwing money at it.” This week—I’m like looking over my shoulder ‘cause one of my kids is outside the door. But I sent one of my kids to a outdoor skateboard camp this week to get him out of the house. And I separated my children and there was no bickering from 9 to 3 four of the days this week. And I felt so good! It was just—it was just—like, just the idea that they were not—one of them, not in this house, separated, changed the whole energy! And it was just—like, I forgot my daughter was here at one point! I was like working in my son’s room, in the office, and I was just like, “This is fucking great!” [Biz laughs.] But it was so much money that we can’t do it again. But for one week only, I will live in the glory of the quiet.
crosstalk
Jaimie: That’s nice. Biz: That is so good. Robin: Yeah.
biz
What is it like to—when your children can leave the house? Ever?
robin
I mean—
biz
Again.
robin
It was just really unbelievable.
biz
It’s like tasting chocolate for the first time, isn’t it?
robin
Yeah!
biz
Yeah.
robin
It’s like Doritos after a long diet. It was just—ooh. Just.
biz
Yes! So good. You—you’re a fucking genius!
crosstalk
Robin: Thank you! Dammit, thank you! Jaimie: You are. You’re a fucking—you’re both fucking geniuses. I’ll tell you that.
biz
Yeah! Thank you! Let’s listen to somebody else be a fucking genius!
robin
Yes, please!
caller
[Answering machine beeps.] Hi, Biz and Theresa! I’m calling with a genius today. But first I do just wanna say that you guys are both doing such a great job and I’m so impressed with the both of you handling this pandemic and life in general. But for my genius. Particularly low bar genius, but— [Someone laughs.] It’s a genius nonetheless. So my kid is two and a half, and he really likes to brush his teeth! And every day before nap, he has been asking to brush his teeth. And I—for some reason—was telling him, like, “No, we do that before bed. We don’t do that before a nap.” And then I realized—why not? [Biz laughs.] It gets my kid to brush his teeth, which is always a good thing. And I don’t know why I’m trying to fight this. So. [Biz laughs.] Now he brushes his teeth before his nap! And it’s going great. [Multiple people laugh.] So that’s my genius for today. Thanks for the show!
biz
Yeah. Okay. You’re right. Low bar genius. And those are the best bar geniuses, in my opinion. Because who’s not broken right now?
jaimie
So broken.
biz
What I love about this genius is when you think about all the things you just say fucking no to instinctively? You’re like, “No!” “Why?” “Because!”
jaimie
I can’t even! I can’t even anymore! Nope! ‘Cause I said so! I’m saying that like it’s my job.
robin
Or you’re like, you dig in. And you’re dug in and then you can’t go back because you said “No” and now it’s gonna be like they won. So it’s like, I love that she caught herself and then she was just like—why not? And then she just reversed it! It’s like she just like turned it around! She turned the car around and was like, “Yes, we can go get ice cream!” I love that!
biz
Yeah! Exactly! She—I’m like—I think I titled it “Genius: Why Not Brush?” [Laughs.]
jaimie
It’s amazing.
biz
That’s a good question, guys! Let’s just continue to go ask ourselves that all the time. Why not? Why not brush?
jaimie
It’s amazing.
biz
You’re doing an amazing job. Now? Failures.
clip
[Dramatic orchestral music plays in the background.] Theresa: [In a voice akin to the Wicked Witch of the West] Fail. Fail. Fail. FAIL! [Timpani with foot pedal engaged for humorous effect.] Biz: [Calmly] You suck! [Biz and Theresa repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss their respective failures of the week.]
biz
Let me fail you, guys. Okay. I… should by this point know my children better that if I set up something like a book challenge? It’s gonna go fucking south fast. Okay? [Someone laughs.] These two started negotiating—
crosstalk
Biz: —right out of the gate. Robin: [Sighs deeply.] Negotiating.
biz
Before the first book was even read, it was, “What are the prizes, exactly? How many prizes are there? And like, do I get to choose between prizes? And what if I read like 20 books?” Like, my daughter comes in and she’s like, “Uh, three chapters? I don’t think I wanna do this.” And then she picks up a book and she read the whole thing and she’s like, “So what does this count as?” [Multiple people laugh.] And I’m like, “I don’t—10? Extra bonus? God! I don’t know!” And then that’s gonna make the other kid mad ‘cause the other kid’s not gonna have read 10 bonus and then somebody’s gonna wind up with more shitty prizes than the other one. And what’s worse is I was so excited about kicking this off. And I was so sure that what I had ordered was coming that day. [Robin laughs.] And not… not two days later. I was like, “Kickoff prize!” And for my son I already had one, and I gave him his Bakugan little round toy thing. And Katy Belle’s like—who’s my 11-year-old—“Is my… kickoff… present… here?” And then I just like became the worst person in the world who did not have the—I was like, on Michael’s and like—“What can I get to this house today? Like, right now?” Right? And we have a heat wave so—we have no air conditioning in the car so I’m like, “I’m not going out to get something.” And like this poor child waited. She is such a nice—nice child. And it makes me want to give her 20 other small prizes? But like, it just… I walked into Stefan not 15 minutes after I’d announced this and was just like, “What the fuck. I hate this.” [Robin laughs.] “I messed this up!” So…
crosstalk
Biz and Jaimie: Yayyyy!
jaimie
You can never win!
robin
You really can’t win. No—what is that? “No good deed goes unpunished”?
biz
Correct. Correct. I kinda just wanna take the prizes and be like, [through laughter] “Here’s your fucking prizes.”
robin
And the negotiating—the absolute lawyering drives me insane. Just—I offered you a thing. How about this? What if I do this? But no! I offered—I’m like, then don’t be in the competition.
biz
Yeah! Don’t be in the competition! You get what you get and you don’t get upset! That’s right! Alright. Jaimie?
jaimie
Well, gosh. I have so much to—
biz
You get to fail!
jaimie
Well, okay. So the original fail story I had I wanna share it. But I also just wanna be like, listen. My two-year-old son—we’re on vacation this week? I’m pretty sure he hasn’t brushed his teeth this entire week. [Robin laughs.] So there’s that. That’s a fail.
biz
That’s a good one! That’s a classic!
crosstalk
Biz: That’s a classic fail! Jaimie: Unless my wife did it.
jaimie
When she put him to bed. [Robin laughs.]
biz
Maybe.
crosstalk
Jaimie: I don’t know. ‘Cause we didn’t ask each other— Robin: Coulda happened.
jaimie
—so that’s also a fail.
biz
Those aren’t forever teeth. [Laughs.]
jaimie
Yeah, I mean, it’s okay. He’s okay. Also, my daughter—my six-year-old—she’s the tough one. She’s the hard one. And I’m sorry. I’m sharing a lot of fails and I hope that’s okay. [Multiple people laugh.] She thinks that she should get a prize for every little stupid thing she does. And it was raining. It’s been—it’s rained nonstop two days on this dang beach vacation and we’re here with another family. So we—I had to get—and my wife was working. I had to get the kids out of the house so I brought ‘em to the—it’s a freaking plague outside. It’s a pandemic and I took ‘em to the dang Build-A-Bear factory.
biz
No! [Laughs.]
crosstalk
Jaimie: I did! ‘Cause I didn’t know what else to do! I didn’t know what to do! So it just really— Biz: Good job! I know! It’s a new bear.
jaimie
Like, really it just emphasized the fact that the child should get a toy no matter what she does. Then I took her to the store the next day and she just needed to get a Clif bar, which is ridiculous. [Robin laughs.] And I can’t tell you—
biz
Yeah. Who does she think she is?
crosstalk
Robin: Clif bar. Jaimie: Who does she think she is?
jaimie
I can’t tell ya how I laid into her about this damn Clif bar. I laid into her— [Biz laughs.] —so hard because it was like a build-up of all the things I’ve given her? I’ve done everything for you! This whole vacation has been about you! For—y’know, and I laid into my child about a stupid Clif bar. But what I really—listen. What I really wanted to share— [Multiple people laugh.]
robin
I’m so scared for where this is going ‘cause I don’t know how you feel, but it’s like winding up.
crosstalk
Jaimie: It never ends! No. What I—No. Robin: You should be scared. Biz: Oh, I’m ready! I’m ready.
jaimie
And this is more like a… inside thing.
crosstalk
Biz: Personal? A deep personal— Jaimie: Personal. A deep—a deep mom thing.
jaimie
I’m anxiety mom. I don’t know if you know anxiety mom, but I am that mom. I’m the—I can’t do the playground. I can’t do the things where they do crazy dare defying crazy stuff. And we’re at the beach, which is anxiety mom’s worst nightmare.
crosstalk
Biz: The ocean’s gonna take ‘em away! Jaimie: Ooh! It’s bad. [Laughs.]
biz
I know! [Laughs.]
jaimie
And I—
biz
I know! I know, Jaimie! [Laughs.]
jaimie
Oh, it’s the worst place in the world for anxiety mom. And the first day we went to the beach, that was days ago, the waves were crazy. They were curtains. It was huge. It was crazy. And everybody was like, “Get in! Get in! Get in!” And I’m not getting in. [Biz laughs.] I’m not getting in! And I feel like I instilled a fear of the ocean into my children. So much so that my daughter was in with our friends who… she takes Roseanne and she brings her in the waves and they do the whole thing and it’s been for years that they’ve done it. She got pummeled. They got pummeled. ‘Cause like I said, the waves were curtains. They got pummeled. And now my daughter’s afraid of the ocean.
biz
Yeah. Well that’s your fault.
jaimie
And I really do feel like it’s my fault, Biz!
biz
I know you do. You’re—okay. [Robin laughs.] Yes. And I—because this is the fail portion, I get to tell you that you’re [through laughter] doing a horrible job.
jaimie
I am. I am.
biz
And—
jaimie
I know.
biz
That everybody’s judging. [Multiple people laugh.] Like, everybody… is judging. And you should listen to that voice. But simultaneously—there’s lots of other ways—
crosstalk
Biz: —we’re totally destroying our children’s self-worth. So. Y’know. Jaimie: I mean, yeah. I’m destroying ‘em in so many ways.
biz
And what’s wrong with being terrified of waves?
crosstalk
Jaimie: Agreed. Agreed. Robin: Healthy fear. Healthy fear. Biz: There ya go.
jaimie
Agreed.
caller
[Answering machine beeps.] Hi! I’m calling with a fail. Today is my birthday. My mother-in-law sent me a card and in that card—as she always does—she included a bunch of sheets of stickers that she got for free in the mail from various places that want her to donate money. And of course I knew the stickers were really for my three-year-old, but I was being silly opening my card over breakfast and trying to be a fun mom and I took a whole sheet of stickers and stuck them all over my face. And then handed the rest of the stickers to the three-year-old, who, of course, proceeded to stick them all over his face. And as I went to peel them off of my face, I thought they seemed like they were kinda difficult to get off. I wonder how long they’ve been sitting in my mother-in-law’s desk drawer. [Biz laughs.]
robin
Oh no!
caller
Later I go to pick the stickers off my three-year-old’s face—
robin
Oh no. [Various sounds of sympathy and horror from all three hosts as she describes the outcome.]
caller
Screaming. They’re leaving, like, gigantic red welts in the shape of the stickers all over his face. There were so many tears. It was such a terrible fail. Happy birthday, me. You’re doing a great job.
biz
Ohhhh. This is so good. Like, I almost wanna save this for a genius fail spectacular? But at the same time… we need this right now. I—I like that it started with “I’m gonna—” [Laughs.] “I’m gonna try and be a fun mom!” Like— [Laughs.]
robin
Like, don’t even try. Just don’t even try.
biz
Don’t—like, the best laid plans from just trying to be a little fun. And there’s like nothing worse than like—Ellis’s—my son’s skin, you cannot put a sticker on it. Y’know, you go to the stupid grocery store and they’re like, “Would you like a sticker?” And like, Trader Joe’s stickers might be alright? But like, my local Ralph’s, which is like a Kroger’s or whatever—they would stick that on his hand without permission and then you would—could not get it off! And like for days. Even if the main sticker was off, the adhesive was still there? And like, talk about ruining somebody’s life. This child will not use a band-aid. [Robin laughs.] And now everything is just a big open wound. But that’s okay. [Multiple people laugh.] I’ve made them so scared about life they never get hurt. Anyway. [Laughs.]
robin
They don’t leave the bubble.
jaimie
Me too! Me, too.
biz
So I imagine the face. You have to do it, and there’s no, like, soaking the face! You can’t like be like, “Soak your face.”
crosstalk
Jaimie: Oh, poor baby! Biz: You can’t—
biz
I am so sorry. Poor mama! [Laughs.]
crosstalk
Robin: She just—she was just trying to have like one fun silly moment in the midst of this crap. Jaimie: You know. I agree. Poor mama. Yeah. Biz: I know.
robin
And the universe just slapped her right in the face. That’s what that felt like.
jaimie
You just can’t win as a mom! You can’t fucking win! You can’t win!
biz
You’re doing a horrible job having fun. [Multiple people laugh.]
music
“Mom Song” by Adira Amram. Mellow piano music with lyrics. You are the greatest mom I’ve ever known. I love you, I love you. When I have a problem, I call you on the phone. I love you, I love you. [Music fades out.]
music
Cheerful ukulele music with whistling plays in background.
biz
One Bad Mother is supported in part by Varsity Tutors. It has been challenging for students to transition from being in a classroom for seven hours a day to learning from home. Varsity Tutors delivers free, live, enrichment classes taught by experts that make learning fun. They have not only one-on-one tutors or group tutoring sessions for pretty much any subject; they have also small and large group live classes. Some of them related to things that are incredibly important to learn right now. [Laughs.] For school. But also really fun stuff! Like how planes fly. [Laughs.] And it’s such an easy and smooth process. Varsity Tutors has hundreds of free, online classes to enrich your child’s educational experience. Whether it’s a class taught by an astronaut, musician, or wildlife expert, there are fascinating subjects for everyone. Varsity Tutors also offers one-on-one tutoring, self-study tools, learning pods, and homeschooling resources. Varsity Tutors has a 4.9 out of 5 satisfaction rating. To reserve your spot in a free class, go to VarsityTutors.com/badmother. That’s VarsityTutors.com/badmother. Give your child the confidence and keys to success today at VarsityTutors.com/badmother. [Music fades out.]
promo
Music: Sophisticated electronic/string music. Teresa McElroy: Shmanners. Noun. Definition: rules of etiquette designed not to judge others, but rather to guide ourselves through everyday social situations. [Music stops.] Travis McElroy: Hello, internet! I’m your husband host, Travis McElroy. Teresa: And I’m your wife host, Teresa McElroy. Travis: Every week on Shmanners, we take a look at a topic that has to do with society or manners. We talk about the history of it. We take a look at how it applies to everyday life. And we take some of your questions. And sometimes, we do a biography about a really cool person that had an impact on how we view etiquette. [Music fades back in.] Travis: So, join us every Friday and listen to Shmanners on MaximumFun.org, or wherever podcasts are found. Teresa: Manners shmanners. Get it? [Music ends on a bright chord.]
promo
Music: Fun, cheerful, soft music. Benjamin Partridge: If you’re looking for a new comedy podcast, why not try The Beef And Dairy Network? It won Best Comedy at the British Podcast Awards in 2017 and 2018. Also, I— [Audio suddenly slows and cuts off.] Speaker 1: There were no horses in this country until the mid to late sixties. Speaker 2: Specialist Bovine Arsefat— Speaker 3: Both of his eyes are squids' eyes. Speaker 4: Yogurt buffet. Speaker 5: She was married to a bacon farmer who saved her life. Speaker 6: Farm-raised snow leopard. [Strange electronic audio.] [Beginning audio returns] Benjamin: Download it today. That’s the Beef And Dairy Network podcast, from MaximumFun.org. Also, maybe start at episode one. Or weirdly, episode thirty-six, which for some reason requires no knowledge of the rest of the show.
biz
Well… I hope you guys are enjoying this four-hour One Bad Mother because I could talk to Robin and Jaimie all day! And I did. I talked to them [through laughter] for a very long time ‘cause that was so much fun. [Singing] I want them to be my new best friends! [Regular voice] Speaking of people I could listen to all day, and new best friends, let’s listen to a mom have a breakdown. [Caller becomes increasingly weepy as her breakdown progresses.]
caller
[Answering machine beeps.] Hi, Biz and Theresa. Long time listener, first time caller. This is a rant and it’s gonna be a doozy, I think. [Laughs.] Um… I know I’m so lucky in so many ways but today’s just been like, how are we all supposed to handle this? I was in what was supposed to be a career development conference for my work today, all day, which was—I mean, it’s [inaudible] day off for that, right? And my boss encouraged us to do it. But I mean I was interrupted like a million times because I have a six-year-old and a one-year-old and I don’t understand now… I’m supposed to develop my career and maybe…? And it seems like other people are able to do it with kids and I just don’t feel like I can and I just totally feel stuck where I am. And then I had to take a break because my one-year-old was just so active and he is such a sweetheart but I am like constantly running after him and I can’t look at the computer and be running after him at the same time and [sniffs] so I just had to take a break from the conference to take him for a walk so we went to the park and I sat down for a second on the blanket. Of course he never sits down. And he’s just off a little bit aways from me and I’m looking at him and I see him pick something up and I don’t think too much of it and of course it [through laughter] turns out to be some dog poop, which seems like a total epic fail and it was. At least he didn’t put it in his mouth.
caller
And then we come home and I try to put him down for a nap and he won’t sleep. I think he’s transitioning to one nap a day, so that means even less time for me to do work. And I’m supposed to be on this special ed town hall with—for my school district because my six-year-old’s on the autism spectrum. And nobody knows what’s gonna happen in the fall. And I—y’know, I just had this hope that he was gonna be back at school and that I was gonna be able to work when he was at school, and of course now it’s all remote so it’s like I’m gonna have to be sitting next to him and helping him with his schoolwork. And at the same time I get a contract from our daycare because they’re reopening, but it’s just [inaudible] because they’re doing shortened hours because of COVID. So it’s literally impossible for me to drop the baby off and have my other son in homeschool at the same time. It’s just—the schedule just does not work. And my husband can’t help with drop-off or pickup, because, y’know, he has to be available for his work all the time because he owns a small business and he just… won’t ever make any allowances. So it’s like I’m always the one having to make the compromises for my job. And I just was like, “Oh, the baby will be back in daycare and my six-year-old will be back in school. Something will happen so that I have time.” And neither of those things looks like it’s gonna be able to happen. And I just don’t know how anyone is supposed to do this. And a lot of the people at my work seem to be just enjoying the fact that they can work from home and nobody is talking about the fact that they’re struggling and maybe that’s because no one wants to say that they’re struggling ‘cause they’re worried they’re gonna lose their jobs if they say that. But I am struggling. Oh god. Thank you so much for having this hotline. I don’t know if any of this is coherent, but you’re doing a great job. And thank you for everything that you do. Bye-bye.
biz
You are doing… such a good job. And… it sounded coherent to me. And it is impossible. You’re being asked to do something that is actually… not… possible. You cannot be in three places at the same time. You—you cannot. That is. Not possible. [Laughs.] And you’ve got a six-year-old and—was it a two-year-old? A one-year-old? That is—that is a baby! You—I—I—I—I—I—I—I—I remember Ellis. Ellis was a mover. I can remember being at like school events for Katy Belle and I could not understand how people were sitting with their kids in their laps. I—like a shark—was always moving around the auditorium or around the classroom with Ellis. ‘Cause you couldn’t just hold him. And that alone is exhausting. You have that in your house and that is exhausting. It is… ridiculously unfair. That this is falling all on you. And I am not even just talking about the dynamic in your household. Everybody? This is unfair that it’s falling on us! Okay? The uncertainty is unfair. The fact that we have so many children in this country who require special needs. Okay? They require special attention. And they deserve it. And they deserve a good education and they deserve all the tools to be made available to them.
biz
And you—as a person in the world—deserve to be able to both work and have children in your house. Okay? How are we supposed to teach our kids at home? How are we supposed to manage this? You are correct! It is impossible! Of course you’re struggling! We are all struggling. It is a joke. Okay? It doesn’t mean that there won’t be days where there is success. And it doesn’t mean that this is going to be how it is forever. But it is okay to acknowledge the days in which the struggle is too much. Okay? You are not alone. At all. The problem with—[sighs.] With the situation that we all find ourselves in right now is… there’s this added level of isolation and an added level of so much we’re trying to process and balance and think about? All at the same time? That it is really hard to see like even one inch in front of us. To even have the time to think about how not-normal it is. To even think about… the fact that ya can’t possibly be the only person who is dealing with this. Because when do you have the time to have that thought? And… I’m just gonna tell you that you’re doing a remarkable job. Because you need to hear it. ‘K? You are doing… such a good job. And I see you? I really see you. Okay?
biz
What did we learn today, guys? [Singing] Lesbians are just like us! [Regular] Except they’re lesbians. [Laughs.] And by “us” I mean… me? I don’t know. [Laughs.] ‘Cause there’s a diverse group of people who listen to this show. [Laughs.] So saying “just like us” is not accurate. Oh my gosh. Robin and Jaimie are a delight. And their book is so insightful and helpful and… it just makes you feel not alone. Even if you are not a member of the LGBT community, I guarantee you, you will find moments in this book that your relate to and that you can share. Especially if you have had to go non-traditional routes in getting a kid in your house. Everybody? You’re doing such an amazing job. I appreciate you going with me today as I got all riled up about things that make me crazy that we have to cover sometimes. [Laughs.] So thank you. You’re all doing great.
biz
I was saying to Stefan the other day—like, it just kind of hit me and it’s always dumb when something hits me that’s so obvious. We went from spring of last year—all of us—we went from the pandemic beginning. All of us having to make these huge changes in our lives. In how we work; how we live; who we see; where our—what our kids are doing; how we balance this? And then it was summer! Without camps! Without daycare! Without babysitters! And now we are rolling back into school. And—with no break! [Makes flabbergasted noise.] You’re just supposed to like—are you supposed to be used to it now? Well, I’m not used to it. And so… it is the right feeling— [Laughs.] If you are feeling like you’re not sure what you’re supposed to be doing. No one knows what they’re supposed to be doing right now. If you do know what you’re supposed to be doing right now, for the love of god, please call the Hotline and tell us. Because I need serious direction. And I am not being facetious here. Okay? [Laughs.] I know you wouldn’t be doing it at me. I am all out of ideas. And we all are finding that we have to push our comfort zones in ways we do not want to to make it work in the areas that we live in. And… I see you. And… let’s go see each other. Let’s help where we can help. And let’s take space where we can take space. You’re doing a remarkable job. And I will talk to you guys… next week. Bye!
music
“Mama Blues” by Cornbread Ted and the Butterbeans. Strumming acoustic guitar with harmonica and lyrics. _I got the lowdown momma blues_ Got the lowdown momma blues Gots the lowdown momma blues The lowdown momma blues Gots the lowdown momma blues Got the lowdown momma blues You know that’s right [Music fades somewhat, plays in background of dialogue.]
biz
We’d like to thank MaxFun; our producer, Hannah Smith; our husbands, Stefan Lawrence and Jesse Thorn; our perfect children, who provide us with inspiration to say all these horrible things; and of course, you, our listeners. To find out more about the songs you heard on today’s podcast and more about the show, please go to MaximumFun.org/onebadmother. For information about live shows, our book and press, please check out OneBadMotherPodcast.com.
theresa
One Bad Mother is a member of the Maximum Fun family of podcasts. To support the show go to MaximumFun.org/donate. [Music continues for a while before fading out.]
speaker 2
Comedy and culture.
speaker 3
Artist owned—
speaker 4
—Audience supported.
About the show
One Bad Mother is a comedy podcast hosted by Biz Ellis about motherhood and how unnatural it sometimes is. We aren’t all magical vessels!
Join us every week as we deal with the thrills and embarrassments of motherhood and strive for less judging and more laughing.
Call in your geniuses and fails: 206-350-9485. For booking and guest ideas, please email onebadmother@maximumfun.org. To keep up with One Bad Mother on social media, follow @onebadmothers on Twitter and Instagram.
Get in touch with the show
onebadmother@maximumfun.org
@OneBadMothers
@onebadmothers
How to listen
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