Transcript
biz ellis
Hi. I’m Biz.
theresa thorn
And I’m Theresa.
biz
Due to the pandemic, we bring you One Bad Mother straight from our homes—including such interruptions as: children! Animal noises! And more! So let’s all get a little closer while we have to be so far apart. And remember—we are doing a good job.
music
“Summoning the Rawk” by Kevin MacLeod. Driving electric guitar and heavy drums. [Continues through dialogue.]
biz
This week on One Bad Mother—a band-aid ain’t gonna fix this! We talk about parents being the front line against racism. Plus, Biz takes a tone and we welcome James Arthur, the host of the podcast Minority Korner. [Biz and James repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss their respective weeks.]
crosstalk
Biz and James Arthur: Wooooo! [Both laugh.]
james arthur
We hit all the octaves! [Laughs.]
biz
We did! That’s—I’m not sure I’ve ever woo’d with a man.
crosstalk
James: Oh! Okay! Ahh. Gotcha. Biz: Besides my husband! Besides my husband. [Laughs.]
james
Well I definitely have woo’d with a man. Um, not your husband, so we’ve got that out—
crosstalk
James: —from the gate. [Laughs.] Yes— Biz: Alright. Fair enough. James—
biz
I—we are so excited to have you here. And just so everybody knows who James is—besides delightful—
james
Thank you.
biz
—uh, he’s an actor; a comedian; a Marvel correspondent; and host, writer, director, dancer, and choreographer. He is also [through laughter] the host of Maximum Fun’s Minority Korner, which is a podcast that takes an introspective look at the world through an intersectional lens. James? Thank you so much for joining us and I hope you’ve got some dance moves that’ll help us—
crosstalk
James: Yeah! A five, six— Biz: —dance our way to success! [Laughs.]
james
A-five, six, seven eight! Let’s get into formation, as Beyoncé told us to do. [Biz laughs.] I— [Laughs.]
biz
Love it!
james
But it’s--y’know, dance can actually be very, uh, therapeutic, you know? To channel the pain and the energy. I actually—to plug something else—I teach Zoom dance classes on Saturdays. Uh—
biz
Oh, no.
crosstalk
James: Yeah! It’s—it’s true! Let’s do it! [Laughs.] Yeah! Biz: One Bad Mother listeners? Get ready! We are going to a Zoom class! [Laughs.] I love it!
james
It’s, uh, in honor of Pride Month we’re doing Lady Gaga and Rihanna’s new jam. I—just because we can’t Pride physically together, we can Pride together in our homes. And, y’know, just channel a lot of the, uh… pain that we’re experiencing and just sort of, uh, have an outlet for that and dance together.
biz
Well, now I’m in love. [James laughs.] Before I ask you how you’re doing, James, I just wanna take a moment to do something we’ve been doing since the pandemic? And feels—every week—more and more important to do. First? We wanna say thank you to all of the, uh, front line… essential workers. All the people who are out there helping to not only keep us safe during this pandemic, but to help work on and find ways to… uh, end this pandemic or at least slow it down ‘cause my children need to be back at school, people! [James laughs.] Uh— [Laughs.] Selfish! Thank you guys so much for that.
james
110%! I’m just gonna give some snaps to that! [Snaps.]
biz
I will take the snaps! [James laughs.] I also wanna say that… we are recording this on a Friday. We are coming to the end of—what is it now? Two weeks—ten days—of peaceful protests in our country. Supporting Black Lives Matters? Uh—and I—again—want to thank all of those who are able to be on the front lines? Of this? Who are protesting. Who are… using peaceful demonstration means. Who are looking out for each other. I think—again—when I say the things that like make me like people again? And like them? Is when I see… people… really… relating and connecting and… picking each other up!
james
Yeah.
biz
I know that it can feel like… does this matter? Is this helping? Is this gonna be the time that we take another step forward? And I just—I don’t know. I’m just here to say thank you to everybody who’s stepping. [Laughs.]
james
Yeah.
biz
Let’s just keep stepping!
james
Keep stepping! Keep on stepping! That’s, uh, it’s—it’s what—it’s not that—it’s what we have to do. There is no other option. Like, there’s no… you don’t just get to sit back and eat bon-bons and, y’know, watch Netflix. Like— [Laughs.] You can use that as a tool? To catch your breath? But that can’t be—it can’t just be escapism. It can’t just be being comfortable because that’s how we got ourselves in this situation in the first place.
biz
Woo! I can’t wait for us to talk. [James laughs.] In the topic. So everybody, we—we see you. And—as always—along with seeing, let’s make sure we’re really listening. We’re really listening. Finally, I just wanna give a shoutout to Theresa? Who is… still taking time off and I hope she takes all the time that she needs to be with her family. We love you, Theresa. And you’re doing—you’re doing a remarkable job. With that said—James? Here’s a loaded question!
james
Okay!
biz
How are you? [Laughs.]
james
Oooh! Yeah. I—you know, oh, man, that’s a lot. How much time do we have? Um, we— [Laughs.]
biz
Forever, if you want! Whatever! [Laughs.]
james
I’ll answer in this moment. Because it’s honestly—it’s—it’s—it’s sort of moment-to-moment. And, um… there’s a—a heaviness that I—I feel? I feel—it feels, uh, like there’s just this heaviness. But at the same time I guess I feel cautiously optimistic in this moment? Because of the—what I’m seeing, um, specifically non-black people get in formation—to quote Beyoncé, if I can. Y’know? Um, and doing it from—I think—an authentic place? And I feel… seen? For the first time? I—I feel like last time when this happened, it felt like… there was so much time that was wasted with like arguing the merits of like Black Lives Matter. And I feel like… I’m not having to have those conversations. And I feel seen. And… um, in some ways it’s kind of a vulnerable feeling?
biz
Ooh! Okay.
james
Um, because it’s like you—you see my struggle. My journey. That I’m not making this up. Y’know? That it’s—it’s—it’s sort of this—this background radiation that every black person has always walked with? Um, it’s interesting that George Floyd was—y’know—killed with this knee—we’ve all sort of felt that pressure of that knee our entire life and existence—
biz
Oof.
james
—and now everyone, um, can see it. So… I’m sad. Um, it’s Breonna Taylor’s—it would’ve been her 27th birthday. Y’know. She was also shot and killed by police just sitting in her own home. An essential worker? One of the ones that we’re just praising about. We’re in the middle of a pandemic? So… yeah. I—I’m—and I’m trying to just give myself grace because it’s like—I’m—we’re in a—take the worst parts of the last, like, hundred years. We’re experiencing them all at once. It’s the 1918 pandemic; the Great Depression; the Civil Rights movement; all happening at once?
biz
Oh, wait. We sent men into space in America.
crosstalk
James: Oh yeah! That happened too! Yeah! Biz: Don’t forget that one! I thought that was like—
biz
—such a, like— [James laughs.] —little historic cherry on the top of like history coming back! I was like, I’m not—I’m not missing this! Oh—oh, are we gonna send a rocket into space? All of these other things [through laughter] must be happening! [Laughs.]
james
It’s all there! So it’s the, uh, I don’t wanna say the greatest hits, but there’s certainly the hits that happen. And so I’m just trying to give myself as much, uh, grace as I possibly can? While still… uh… being active and engaged. But, um, thank you for asking. It, um… it’s—it almost feels like a funeral hopping? ‘Cause I’m getting a lot of, like, white folks coming to me? And they’re asking me like—how are you doing? And I—I can take that on? Not every black person can. So you have to sort of learn how to dance with each person because they’re each experiencing it differently? Um, but I—I have appreciated it because it’s an attempt to try to be active. So. Thank you. Um, how are you doing? Huh? There’s a lot going on!
biz
First I’m gonna say—that’s very generous of you. [Laughs.] [James laughs.] To be—to be, uh, willing to do that dance. Uh—
james
A lot of therapy and a lot of, like, self-help and meditation have gotten me to this space? So. [Laughs.]
biz
Yessss. I did—love the therapy. It is helpful. Um, I’m all—I mean, I’m alright? Let’s get real. I’m healthy and I’m white. [Laughs.]
crosstalk
James: Fair. Fair. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Biz: I think—y’know, like—
biz
I’m a woman. That’s not as good. But—y’know. There ya go. I am looking forward to us having a chance to—to talk about this. But… that said, it is deeply—it’s—it’s—I think every day… over the last… couple of weeks specifically—and we’ve—look. We’ve been dealing as best we can… and as mindfully as we can on this show… since we’ve started.
james
Mm-hm.
biz
With… inclusion and learning and—and trying to figure out, like… where our voices can be helpful, y’know. And—uh, and when they can’t. [Laughs.] [James laughs.] Just have to—to shut up! Which I—
james
It’s a healthy place to also be! Like, know when to lead and know when to follow. Like, you get—some—I think the best thing I’ve ever heard, sometimes being an ally—and I had to do this, too, as, y’know, I—y’know, may be a queer black man, but I also at—do have male privilege. And so… I… being an ally is like being the intern. You’re there to listen, support, and get the coffee. So. [Laughs.]
biz
That’s right! That’s right. But that’s exactly right. But I thought that that actually would be a really great place? To segue into? What we are gonna talk about today. Which is… parents being the front line against… uh, racism.
music
Banjo strums; cheerful banjo music continues through dialogue.
theresa
Please—take a moment to remember: If you’re friends of the hosts of One Bad Mother, you should assume that when we talk about other moms, we’re talking about you.
biz
If you are married to the host of One Bad Mother, we definitely are talking about you.
theresa
Nothing we say constitutes professional parenting advice.
biz
Biz and Theresa’s children are brilliant, lovely, and exceedingly extraordinary.
theresa
Nothing said on this podcast about them implies otherwise. [Banjo music fades out.] [Biz and James repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss the weekly topic.]
biz
James.
james
Yes.
biz
I would like to start… with… talking a little bit about Minority Korner. Tell us a little bit about the history of the show. And—and why you started it and what’s come out of it.
james
Yeah! Thanks! Um, so it started with, uh, Nnekay FitzClarke, who’s been on this show before.
biz
Yesssss! [James laughs.]
james
She’s literally—she’s, like, my best friend. My sister. We’ve—went to college together. I’ve known her for, y’know, ages at this point. Y’know? Honestly, it actually really started around the time—I’d say about six years ago—this show’s been running since 2015 in June. And it was mainly because we were listening to a lot of, y’know, podcasts but there wasn’t any podcasts that were talking about intersectional sort of issues. You know? We love talking about news and history and pop culture, but Ferguson was happening and some of our favorite shows weren’t addressing it. And it was like, this is affecting me! Ferguson was the first time—with Michael Brown—I realized I was a second-class citizen in this country. And that is—what an awakening to finally sort of come to ‘cause I was spoon-fed these ideas of, well, y’know, Martin Luther King happened. Waved a wand. Racism was over and then Obama! We did it! [Biz laughs.] And, um— [Laughs.] Y’know? That was the finish line. Woo! That was—and that wasn’t the case. And so we were just always having these conversations and we’re like, oh, we should be recording this! And then we did. And, y’know, we talk about… y’know, pop culture. News. History. Just whatever’s going on in our lives but it comes from a voice that isn’t hard—or at least it really wasn’t hard—too much back then. Now there are other podcasts with, y’know, kind of a similar matchup as us? And I’m grateful for that? There should be as many of those voices as possible. And I think that’s the other side and somewhat heartbreaking thing is that we started this podcast five or six years ago in response to, like, the awareness. Because this was always happening. Y’know? Since the really incep—y’know, since, y’know, 1619. Since, y’know, even the history of the police that black folks have been disproportionately affected and—and—and treated and killed and murdered and lynched in this country. And that’s always been happening. But, y’know, here it is. We started this podcast in response to… everybody coming on the same page and being aware of what was happening? And here it is happening again. And it just breaks my heart so much that George Floyd’s last words were “I can’t breathe” and we heard those already. And… y’know, with Christian Cooper! Who, y’know, it could’ve turned out differently. He was just out there birdwatching. And that was the first time I saw—I think every black person sees themselves in these instances? But I saw myself in Christian Cooper. He’s black, gay, activist, worked at Marvel, and I’m like—that could’ve been me. So, um… that’s kind of the inception of Minority Korner? It’s still going strong. Uh, Nnekay has—she’s—she pops in and out. She has, y’know, joined the troupe of mothers. She’s on the front lines so she’s got a lot of—a lot of focus taking care of her, y’know, little baby girl!
biz
Yes. So… on this show, we have talked—we talk a lot about how parenting… unites us. There is a shared… parenting experience. Nobody is free from their kid taking a shit in the tub. Okay? [James laughs.] This is gonna happen to you one day? No one’s gonna tell you this. This is… this is a—an equalizer! That—that said! [Laughs.] That doesn’t mean we share the same parenting experiences.
james
Mm. Mm-hm.
biz
Parenting being a shared experience. Sharing the same parenting experiences. So… when I—I hear us say that we’re on the front lines? I still think there are different lines that we are… we are hitting. And so… and again, this goes back to what you said at the beginning about all of your white friends coming up and being like—are you okay?
james
Yeah. [Biz laughs.] Yes. Sure.
crosstalk
Biz: Are you—are you okay? And can I—how are you? James: How are you doing? What can I do? [Laughs.]
biz
What can I do? And I—I’ve already told you—I said it before, hopefully on the show—I don’t think that is your job to answer, per se.
crosstalk
James: Thank you. Thank you. [Laughs.] Appreciate. There’s a thing called Google that, uh… that’s at your fingertips! [Laughs.] Biz: I think—yeah! I just—wow, what the fuck! I know! Google it! Google that shit! [Laughs.]
biz
Yeah! Being like, pick up a book! Um— [James laughs.] Just—but you have said that you were very willing to come on. And chat with us.
james
I am willing to be your Dangerous Minds teacher. Y’know? I will be—like, imagine—‘cause they always flip it the inverse, that it’s, y’know, these POC kids who need a teacher? No. I’ma be y’all’s black teacher— [Biz laughs.]
crosstalk
James: Turning my chair around and being like—let’s get real. Y’know? I’ma do that to you. Yeah. You are the inner-city kids and we need to have a conversation. [Laughs.] I’m willing. Biz: That’s right! Woo! Mr.! Mr.! That’s right! [Laughs.] I am the inner-city— [Laughs.] You have to teach me—
biz
Oh my god. They call me Mr. Arthur! [James laughs.] Okay. Um— [Laughs.]
james
Yes. Yeah.
biz
Alright. So… I find… in the first steps… towards… helping parents navigate this… probably very specifically white parents— [Laughs.] Navigate this. We spend a lot of time trying to convince you that we’re not racist. Which I think is a real waste of time.
james
Yes.
biz
So… can we just move on to…
james
Great.
biz
To what’s next? Yeah.
james
Yeah. And I think—I think it starts with making a commitment—I think this is for everybody—um, you know, I’m also—I am also looking at this from an angle, too, I’m a—I am a One Bad Guncle. Uh, that’s a gay uncle.
crosstalk
Biz: Oh, I love it! [Laughs.] James: Uh, keep that pure, people. [Laughs.] Um—0
james
So I’m also thinking about the children in my life that I have. And I think, uh, regardless of race—and I think you put this so well—everybody has a collective responsibility. Right? I think that at the end of the day we all want equity and equality in this country. But we all have different degrees of responsibility. I wanna live in—in—into what that means in raising our children and also our own personal responsibility. Right? And so I think—um—what has to be different this go-around is making a commitment to this. Right? So starting off with yourself that, like, every day? You’re waking up with some sort of mantra of—what will I do to help end systemic racism in this country? And it’s not just enough to be like, oh, I’m not racist, but it’s anti-racism. Right? It’s like—
crosstalk
Biz: Yes! I love—yeah! James: —taking down racism.
james
And, y’know, dismantling anti-blackness because that’s what we’re seeing here in the country. So I think it’s like—starting with yourself? And then educating yourself. Um, I think taking in… sources of… of… of black media? Whether that’s books—like, even, y’know, if you’re, like, oh, I don’t think this is for me—no! Watch a show or a TV show or a movie that has an all-black cast. Like, we have to… broaden our horizons following black bloggers. Documentaries. Books. There’s so many resources, um, so starting with yourself and then, y’know, when you move into, y’know, the children—like, all of the parents—I—I love all the parents. The parents? Like, I literally—they are our front lines because that’s the future. And I think that we really can make a commitment… that… we’re going to end police violence within our generation. In the same way that, y’know, if we look at this as like a pandemic, uh, the folks that came before us ended polio! They strived to end it and they did it. And we can do the same thing, but it’s a daily commitment and practice to it? And… I think first and foremost is checking in with yourself and you’re going to have these conversations with your children and—and there’s not a one-size fits all? All of your kids are different. I—I encour—think parents should be vulnerable about their feelings? If you’re feeling angry or you’re feeling sad, whatever that is? But just kind of organizing your feelings in a way that you can present that to your child? Because, um… whatever you model is how they’re going to also pick that up as well. And that’s why I think it’s okay to be vulnerable. If, y’know, they see dad crying over… what’s happening… whewf! What an image. Y’know?
biz
I think that’s a—such a wonderful approach. Tell me what your thoughts are on this. We’re raised with a narrative… that I think what’s different about then and now… is our narrative didn’t necessarily have the history behind it. Didn’t have—right? Like, it’s not enough—now I—I was raised in, like, the buckle of the Bible belt. I mean, Alabama. [James laughs.] Okay?
james
Yeah!
biz
The ‘70s and ‘80s.
james
Wow. [Laughs.]
biz
So, y’know, it—oh, yes!
crosstalk
James: What a time! [Laughs.] Biz: I lived—lotta stories!
biz
Uh, and there’s—it definitely shaped who I am. And I was lucky to have my parents. But, y’know, their parents were racists. I mean, full-on!
james
Right. But—but look at the key thing that you said that I wanna focus on? Is your parents. Right? Your parents moved the needle in you that much forward! And you’re doing that same thing.
biz
And with that needle movement, I think… when you hear people saying how is this gonna be different—as parents… what we can do to make it different is to not just say—everybody’s equal. [Laughs.] Y’know? Like—and we’re—we’re all the same. It’s okay. That we need to like… tie in… the… the history with it. Why we even have to say this. Right? And so… I wonder, like, how… how do we begin with that? In—like, I guess it’s like, how do we navigate this with kids?
james
Yeah! Well, I think what you can—I think what’s great is like I’m a huge advocate of like books. [Laughs.] Y’know? And—or even media. Because sometimes like I maybe don’t have the words but this can? And so you find what’s appropriate for like—there are literally, like, books for ages 3-5 with dealing with, y’know, racism or even privilege. Like, I think privilege is, y’know, very key? And you can find sort of ways I think to talk about it with your children of—y’know, if you wanna talk about like injustice. Of like, y’know, you can start talking to your child about like, uh, when—talk to me about when you had an experience that you felt was unfair. And then you can kind of bring that to… y’know… what’s going on to, y’know, how it happens to—pertains to—y’know, black people. Or, y’know, um, calling out, y’know, what these police cops did and why that was wrong. And that they did it because of the melanin of these people’s skin. Right? And then children can sort of ask questions. And it’s at different levels and different, y’know, sort of—kids’ levels. But, y’know, I think, um… tapping into the history of it is so key. Y’know, I love Black History Month? I think it’s great? And I think it should also spill into the rest of the year!
biz
Of every month? [Laughs.]
james
Because—yeah! Exactly! Because black history is American history! Like—slavery is so tied to the foundations of this country. To, um, the economic, like, success of this country and our still-dependency on cheap and sort of free labor. And then you have the treatment of just what emanated from that. Laws and segregation and there’s, y’know, just so much—you don’t have to like— [Laughs.] Sit little Johnny down and put all of this on him— [Biz laughs.] —but I think that’s what the key is that—it’s that—remember I said in the beginning, it’s a commitment?
biz
Buckle up, little Johnny!
james
Here we go! It’s gonna be a—
biz
Here we go!
james
—you’re doing summer school at home—
crosstalk
James: And this is what we’re doing! Biz: This is what summer’s gonna be! [Laughs.]
james
But not a bad, y’know, little summer school program! Of like, um, and I—understanding that it’s a process. That is, you’re not gonna have one conversation and be, phewf! That was tough. Done with that. But this is literally sort of a commitment and you kind of look at, like, what are your—every family has its values and its mission statement. And however it is— [Biz laughs.] —that you approach that like understanding that in our family, we work towards being kind to other people. Uh, we look towards, uh, y’know, justice for other people. And dismantling systems of racism! It’s part of your family’s mission. And if we know that then we know and it leaves that space for this conversation to continuously, uh, be open and finding new media and sources and navigating the conversation. It’s gonna be awkward and clunky! You know what else is awkward and clunky? Talking to kids about sex. Right? Like, it’s— [Laughs.]
biz
Yeah! Exactly! Yes! Yes. Exactly right. And that is a conversation that has to happen more than once!
crosstalk
James: Yes! Totally! Yeah. Biz: You don’t just say—
biz
Y’know. And it—I think what’s also similar to it—we were talking about the—you were talking about, um, the bon-bons and the Netflixing and… moments like this… are… especially when they’re layered? Like what we’re going through right now? There’s a lot of layers. And I think it’s fair… y’know… I’m a big believer in—you could have multiple things going on and they can all carry equal weight. Okay? They’re—they all—right? So you have all this going on and it is, in fact, overwhelming. And… and if you’ve got kids, you’re already fucking tired. And so— [Laughs.] So— [James laughs.] —you’ve been home with them for many months! Uh, and so the idea of… Netflixing and just wanting to not be part of it. When the Me Too movement was at its peak, that was a very easy place for me to feel very connected as a victim of assault and as a woman. And so it was… easy for me to know when I needed to step out and let somebody else speak for me because I couldn’t do it anymore. And then… to step up when somebody else needed me to step up so they could take a step back. ‘K? And I feel like in… this situation… which I am a step away from—you wanna speak up. And you wanna teach… your kids to speak up.
james
Mm-hm.
biz
I do not also want to look like a complete asshole—
james
Mm-hm!
biz
Who’s like—Dear Black People, I don’t understand, but I understand. Right? Like— [Laughs.]
crosstalk
James: Yeah! Totally! Yeah! Well— Biz: Like—I don’t—like—
biz
I feel like that makes me look… like, not helpful?
james
But—but actually you know what? I kind of want to challenge something that I don’t—and again, like, this is just me.
crosstalk
James: Um, and my opinion. Biz: And this is just me!
james
This is just me and my opinion and my idea. Um, I’m okay with, y’know, I think—uh—don’t be afraid of looking like an asshole. Because if that prevents you from doing anything, I—I think—once—someone will let you know that you’ve stepped out of line. Right? [Biz laughs.] And, oop! Okay. Sorry. And now I know where that boundary is. Right? And then if you don’t have someone in your life—what I’m talking about—a black person to let you know that you’ve stepped out of line? [Biz laughs.] Then there’s your first [through laughter] thing to do! [Biz laughs.] You need to go do some outreach so you have those people in your life that can help you, um, ‘cause everybody benefits from diversity. Just having—it helps you in that sort of situation. So I—I think, like, um, and that’s why I just say it—grace has been my theme and motto for this—since the pandemic started. Because I think—and just in general, as human beings, it’s gotta be messy. You’re gonna step on toes. It’s kind of like—a dance. And we have to learn how to do this dance with each other and that every person that you’re dancing with, too, and you’re working with someone on an issue or talking with someone or engaging with them, they’re all gonna be different. So you just have to check in with them about—oop! Oop! Where am I dancing with you on this one, too? And I think, too, y’know… I think everyone has to find their activism. I think we all have to… be activists. In the same way that everybody needs to be a feminist. Like, being a feminist is about believing in—that women are equal! And working and striving towards that! And making mistakes and getting back up and, y’know, moving where the movement sort of goes. And I think activism has to be—and it can take so many different forms. It can, um, y’know—being with your children and talking to them! That’s activism! If it’s taking to the streets; if it’s donating; if it’s, y’know, being involved in social media. Having conversations with people in your circle is one of the most important ones? And I think it’s okay to be—I think sometimes we—we’re—we love being so comfortable. I mean, we have—Netflix and chill, right? We love being comfortable and we have—
biz
Yes! James! I love being comfortable! [Laughs.]
james
It’s—of course! It’s cozy! Let’s be in our cave and hibernate. Let me put on the onesie and let’s hang out.
biz
Yes! Just… yes! [Laughs.]
james
But being comfortable is how we got here and if we, y’know, I guess my biggest fear and why I say I’m cautiously optimistic—is that we have all this—the anger and the sadness and this frustration and the minute the news cycle changes to something else and we’re not seeing these images and we’re not, uh, we have very short attention spans. And so—hold onto this feeling. You know? Put it away. Journal it or something. And that’s why I say it has to be a daily commitment. And pushing yourself to your uncomfortable limits. It’s okay to be uncomfortable. It’s okay to have these uncomfortable conversations, because it’s like—I’ve [through laughter] not experienced this, but giving birth. I imagine it’s one of the most painful things that you— [Biz laughs.] —people have ever done. Or like, when you go through like—we’re going through major surgery right now. And painful. And it’s—we can’t shy away from that pain. We have to dig even deeper. ‘Cause you know what? I—it’s gotta get worse. It will. But—for the better. Right? Digging deep and—and—yeah.
biz
Well I think the surgery… comparison… is an interesting one because when you’ve had major surgery, uh, in theory there should be a recovery time. Something Americans are not very good at is recovering anymore. We will get you right out—oh, did you just have a baby? Goodbye! Go back to work! Right?
james
Yeah! Oh my gosh, yeah!
biz
Like, or did you just have open-heart surgery? Well you get to be here for three days. Now get out! So I—I think… I think you’re convincing me that parenting is going to be helpful. [Laughs.]
james
So helpful! Oh my gosh!
biz
Because I think when the news cycle switches… and our focus goes somewhere else… if we are still—as parents—having the conversations. Making sure that our… y’know… the books we have in our house reflect diversity. Have, y’know, that the kid shows we’re choosing to watch, activities we sign up for. And I—and I understand that for… I have always grown up in very diverse communities. Okay? I mean, hello. I’m from Alabama. Um—and— [Laughs.] [James laughs.] That is… diverse! It freaks me out when I go to cities. I remember the first time I ever went to like some city in Maine and like I’m walking around and I kept thinking—I cannot put my finger on what is weird about this. Something is really weird. And then like ten minutes later I was like, oh my god, there’s [through laughter] no black people here! And—
james
It’s startling! [Laughs.]
biz
It is startling!
james
[Through laughter] And it should be startling for people!
biz
But it should—well, it should be. And I think—but I think, though, that it’s very… it is a comfortable place—speaking of comfort!—for me here in California or when I was home in Alabama or when I lived in New York or Atlanta or any of these places that I am very used to seeing diversity around me all the time.
james
Right.
biz
That has afforded me a sensation of… not being scared of—of people.
james
Yeah! Yeah! Right!
biz
I am not— [Laughs.] Like, I’m not! That’s never crossed my mind! Right? And so… then I realized that that is not the case for people… all over our country. Where they do not live in diverse communities. And so… while it’s very easy for me to say—go find a diverse Girl Scout troop in your neighborhood— [James laughs.] When that’s not an option, I think what you were saying about the TV shows; uh, making sure you’re listening to programming—whether it be podcasts or radio or music—music is something that I—we love music in our house? And I—it really is one of the easiest ways to start talking about it? Like, oh! Do you—do you like this, uh, singer? We were listening to like Miles Davis and I was like, oh, do you—do you like this? This is great! Fun fact— [Laughs.] [James laughs.] When he was recording this, he wasn’t allowed into a building through the same door. Right?
james
I love it!
biz
And it was like—
crosstalk
Biz: It was really simple! Yeah! James: But just that history!
james
And that’s what I was gonna say is that you can dive—music is such a great, y’know, not just the surface-level things but diving even deeper to the history of it? I love that you do that? Because it’s also like—y’know, we can’t just look at the… uh, the symptoms of the things that are happening. We have to look at the cause. Right? If I’m bleeding, we don’t just go, like, oh, you’re bleeding! We, like, oh, what happened! Oh, someone punched me in the face. Like, that’s—now we’re looking at— [Biz laughs.] —well, why did this happen? Y’know? Oh, ‘cause they’re racists. Oh. Why are they racists? Because they’re afraid. Now we start unpacking, right? You just kinda keep… digging until it’s literally the roots are rotten. We have rotten roots in this country. Y’know? They—talking of going to the police; they talk about one bad apple. Well that apple orchard—it’s—it’s full of rotten roots so we need to, y’know, get at the root of things—
crosstalk
James: —and—and—and clear that out. Biz: Yeah. It’s hard to be a healthy—
biz
—apple if the tree itself is infected. Right? Like, if we are gonna do… an apple— [Laughs.] Metaphor. [Laughs.]
james
Yeah! I—let’s go with it.
biz
You’re right! If the tree itself is—y’know—is—is bad, then—then we gotta—y’know. Johnny Appleseed that shit, like, in different ways. Right?
james
Yeah.
biz
I do think we should come up with some examples. Like, what are these smaller ways? Because it’s easy to say—
crosstalk
Biz: Y’know. James: In the big, abstract… yeah.
biz
Right! It is abstract! So I—let’s—let’s kind of… delve into some ways that can be… helpful through our—maybe our own experiences. I mean, like, if you— what were some things that like your folks, uh, or that friends of yours or you’ve seen other parents doing that you’re like, oh! That’s not a bad idea! That—that works!
james
Or even, like, my fantasy wish list for when I like have a—my children? It’s like, I’m gonna, um, I’m going to adopt two and have one. I have this theory— [Biz laughs.] —for every—‘cause like there’s all these—‘cause I’m gay, I don’t have to biologically have children, y’know? But I want one. Just to see—like, I wanna create something and see what it would look like, y’know? [Biz laughs.] There’s just that? But I have to go adopt some children. And what if I need a bone marrow transplant? So. Y’know. [Laughs.]
biz
Yeah. I know. Selfish, selfish.
crosstalk
Biz: Anyway. Now you— James: Gotta think about it!
biz
Now you know why we are all having children! [Laughs.] [James laughs.]
james
You just have—they’re just walking donors.
crosstalk
James: Just walking donors. Biz: Yeah. Donors everywhere. [Laughs.]
james
Keep a liver good, little child! Alright. Um… yeah! So I think—again—I think one of the first things—I think what we were just talk—trying to itemize, uh, these things, y’know. First, checking in with yourself. Um, and—and broadening your resources. Like you said, or just going towards, y’know, uh… uh… non-white media of all different facets and sources. And sometimes that doesn’t even have to be, like, when we get to, like, books for your kids? Sometimes—like, it doesn’t all have to be, like, oooh! The struggle!
crosstalk
James: Sometimes it can be just— Biz: Well right! Yeah! [Laughs.]
james
—a protagonist that happens to be a non-white dude! Like, that’s also helpful! [Laughs.]
biz
One of our favorite—‘cause I do like to do shoutouts to people who are doing good work—uh, OurShelves? We’ve had them on a couple of times? They’re a book club for kids and they just send books featuring diverse people! In them.
james
Yeah. And I think when we’re looking at—what I love about that is that like, y’know, I—we—like—our children aren’t gonna be exposed to this no matter what? And so it’s sort of like getting… y’know… we’re just—I… I don’t wanna open up this can of worms.
biz
Ooooh!
james
I was gonna say—it’s sort of like, y’know, you get your shots when you go to the doctor! Y’know? [Laughs.] Um—
biz
We like shots. [Laughs.] On this—
james
[Through laughter] Okay!
biz
This show—this show, we’ve been pretty clear on this show about a lot of things. Alright? And one of those things is—the shots.
james
But yeah! You want your children to be, y’know, strong and immune—like, get their immunity to, uh, what’s going on so you give them a little bit of these dosages of—of reality, essentially, and it equips them. And, um, so I think like that. Like, continue doing, like, having conversations—then having conversations with your children and remember it’s an ongoing conversation? And then also, too? Expanding that then towards your community? Um, having conversations with the people in your, uh, social network? Like, sometimes you gotta put out fires on social media. We gotta, like, let this, y’know… we gotta nip it in the bud. And it doesn’t mean that you—at least challenge it—you don’t have to spend all of your day on social media? But use your platform for good! It doesn’t have to be—people vote with your—their dollars, too. And when I see people who, y’know, I follow on social media who are standing up and saying something? It makes me want to continue following them. When I see that they’re not? I’m like, girl, bye. I don’t have time. Y’know? Um, and something, too, like, I—I just—this is a bit of a tangent or a derail, as we say here—
biz
I like it!
james
Uh, let’s go off the rails! But like when—hashtag #BlackoutTuesday—once everybody figured out what the fuck we were supposed to be doing with it— [Biz laughs.] —there’s a lot of confusion! We’ve learned about how algorithms work and why we use hashtags? It was a learning lesson for all of us? [Laughs.]
biz
I was like, ohhh!
james
What—I’m doing it wrong!
crosstalk
Biz: What is happening?! James: And here’s—
james
Here’s what I love about it? Is we adjusted. We made a mistake—like, let’s be okay with we’re gonna make mistakes and we adjust. But we don’t take it personally. And like, oh, my feelings are hurt or I did it wrong; I give up. It’s like, whoops! Sorry. Made a mistake. Let’s recalibrate. Right? And by the end of that day, I—my feed was filled with either a black square so then all I saw was black excellence? Like, stories about uplifting black people? Black history, um, things—action items I could be doing, that people could be doing. It was just—wow. And so to continue doing those, um, doing those things? Your workplace—I want to give snaps to my part-time, uh, job—I work in the tech industry and it’s not a shitshow? Um— [Biz laughs.] My CEO is a black woman, which is like—and it makes—
biz
What?!
james
I know!
crosstalk
James: In the tech industry! Biz: Is this Narnia?
biz
Are we in Narnia? [Laughs.]
james
Am I in the upside-down world?
crosstalk
James: Like, what’s going on?! Biz: Where are we?! [Laughs.]
james
Um, but they—like, we’ve created these town halls where we’re speaking about these issues. And especially for those of us who are—a lot of people are—like, 25% of the country’s working from home. So, like… our home lives and our real lives are blurring so much. And when I saw I feel seen, now I know that my colleagues know that when I’m coming into a meeting I’m coming in with all of my black queerness experience.
biz
All of this.
james
And just ‘cause I’m able to sometimes, y’know, smile or I’m able to… um… y’know… any success I have isn’t because there’s not an unjust system; it’s because I’ve pushed through [through laughter] this unjust system. Y’know? And so I think, um… I think gone are the days where talking about like race and sexism and homophobia as taboo subjects at work? No! We are humans, right? Like… there’s no such thing as identity politics! My identity informs my politics. It informs— [Biz laughs.] —my life! So I think it’s okay for creating—like we do with our children, making it so that it’s not taboo and that we can have these conversations. ‘Cause when we shine a light on these things they’re not done in the dark, right? And we—people are then able to make, y’know, mistakes and we can say, op, nope, we don’t say that. Or we’re not doing that. Um, and also, too, there are groups for white people specifically to talk about racism. And—
biz
Yes! That’s why we don’t actually have to…
crosstalk
James: Come to us? [Laughs.] Biz: Ask every person—
biz
—that we see on the street. But—but, y’know. Let’s all be careful that we— [Laughs.]
james
Go to the right group.
crosstalk
James: ‘Cause there’s some groups where it’s a bunch of— Biz: Go to the right group. Yeah. [Laughs.]
james
—white people getting around and they’re talking about race and so, just be careful which group you’re in. When they start putting on a hood you know you’re in the wrong place. Right? [Laughs.]
biz
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s—yeah. Make sure—whoa! Yeah. Do your research, guys! [James laughs.] That could be really tricky! Yeah.
james
Yes. And I think just knowing that it is a… a—a process and again I think it just goes back to making that commitment that I really do believe that we can—before, y’know, we take our last breath, which will be like 150 years from now? I’m wishing that for us ‘cause we’re gonna have that? We’re taking care of ourselves. Um, that we’re gonna look back and be like, man, wasn’t that crazy? That, like, police used to kill people! Like, they don’t have to! There’s a—signs of it in other countries where that just doesn’t happen. And so, um, y’know—and—and even taking your children—you could—taking them to a protest, depending on what, y’know, their ages? And y’know, doing it during the day. Like, we don’t need to shield them from this ‘cause who do we want our children to be? We want them to be leaders in this world! We want them to be making the world a better place and if they’re silent; if they’re passive; if they’re, um, complacent; if they’re participating in any of this, y’know, systemic racism then that’s—I know that no parent wants that. Um, and so I think on the flip—on the end of this, it’s always sort of giving your children that sense of hope. That yes, there are these bad things that are happening and this is what they are; um, I’m gonna protect—I’m going to, uh, make you—make sure that you’re gonna be living in a safe environment. But um, we in this family make a commitment to—to ending this. And—and we’re going to. Because we believe in love and equality and equity for all.
biz
Growing up where I grew up? In my time? I can remember having those thoughts as like a, y’know, teen. That this is gonna be done. By the time I have kids? This will be done. And it’s not. And… it… it’s—and—y’know, there are a million reasons as to why it’s not. And it would be very easy for me to say on the pessimistic side of—how the fuck is this supposed to happen? But—that said—I see, y’know, what’s different is that the crowds that are marching and that are protesting, it is filled with… the kids of—I mean, I had my kids late. So I mean— [James laughs.] —like, the kids of my generation, like, they—that I grew up with—those kids are out marching. And speaking. Because to them… it does make total sense.
james
Yeah.
biz
That this is wrong.
james
Yeah! Yeah. And I think—I mean, we—like—change can be… incremental? And I think tons of people get frustrated with it and, y’know, sometimes I believe, y’know, I’m fighting for a future I will never see? Just because the folks that came before me did that? And I think that, um, everyone has their role to play. Like, even to our listeners that—your listeners out there who, y’know, are—are… um… who are black! Um, I know how exhausted and tired and frustrated you are. And so I say—and—and to know, for people who are not black? Like, know that they’re tired and frustrated and exhausted. And so to allow—give that space? And so to give yourself that space, too. And… take your breather. But also, like… we also have the work to do as well. And in—what I—and what I mean by that is that something that’s been helpful for me is finding someone in history that has—can be my guiding light. My spirit guide. And for me it’s been Harriet Tubman. Because—
biz
Ooh! Yeah.
james
—she—if you haven’t seen that movie, Harriet? It’s so phenomenal. Please watch it. It is amazing. I mean, this woman, like, freed herself and then came back and freed hundreds of people. Never lost a soul. And then was a spy for the Union Army! And so then, even for myself as like, oh, man, it’s so challenging, y’know, being black in this, y’know, racist country—but then I’m like— [Biz laughs.] —well, I have Netflix. Right? Like, I have an air conditioning house. Like, she did so much for me. So again, like, I—I encourage like—especially ‘cause of the generational trauma is real for black folks and then the trauma that you’re experiencing now? So I wanna be aware of that, but just to—I also, y’know… find that strength to—to—to find your inner Harriet Tubman. [Laughs.] Is what I’m saying. [Laughs.]
biz
Oh, god, yes. Yes! No, I think that’s very fair. And I—I think—yeah. I—yes. Yes! Yes. Watch me say yes.
james
Yasssss! [Laughs.]
biz
It sounds like something that you keep hitting on in the steps that we can take is… forgiveness and patience.
james
Mm-hm.
biz
And so I—I just wanna wrap up in saying… thank you for… bringing your grace? [Laughs.] That you are giving yourself? Onto the show. And for all of us… if you are afraid to step forward to speak up because you’re scared you’re going to step in it? As the queen of stepping in it on this show? Very often? The thing that we can continue to do besides all of that work—when we are taking a look at ourselves—is looking at the beauty of learning?
james
Mm.
biz
And… apologizing when—even if your intent was not to harm? I don’t mean, like, just running around—sorry! [James laughs.] [Through laughter] I mean, like—like, we all have kids. We all know when we’ve said to our kids—that is not a real apology. Right? Like—you’ve gotta make eye contact when you do it. But… really taking an opportunity if we step in it, um, to say… oooh. That—that was not my intention.
james
But keep on stepping, right?
crosstalk
James: Like, you said that in the very beginning of this show! Biz: But keep on stepping! Yes!
james
And like—I love that you said—I know you’re trying to wrap it up here, but you just get me talking. But like the—I love the forgiveness and patience and activation. Like, it’s just, y’know, staying active and—I think you said it just so wonderfully in the beginning of this show, like, we just have to keep on stepping even if it’s small steps or big steps. We just keep on… trip-tropping along. Keep going.
biz
I know. Trip-trap-trip-trap—it’s like my mother, who always said—two steps forward. One step back. Two steps forward. One step back. And those backsteps fucking suck.
james
Yeah.
biz
But! The new steps… are—hopefully are going to be wonderful. I just—I just hate that we are still here, James. But I am glad that you are here with me. And I’m glad to have you here.
james
Yay!
biz
And I will continue to ask questions. And… try and take the right steps and I appreciate you being lovely enough to speak with us here. Everybody? Keep stepping!
james
Yeah! [Laughs.]
music
“Ones and Zeroes” by “Awesome.” Steady, driving electric guitar with drum and woodwinds. [Music fades out.]
biz
Laid-back acoustic guitar plays in background.
biz
One Bad Mother is brought to you in part by StoryWorth. Finding the perfect present for Dad is tough—especially if you cannot go anywhere, like, to… the drugstore to get him some soap-on-a-rope! This year— [Laughs.] Get Dad a meaningful gift—a chance to connect with loved ones through StoryWorth. StoryWorth is a fun and meaningful way to engage with family, especially with relatives you might not get to see often. Every week, StoryWorth emails your family member different story prompts. Questions you’ve never thought to ask—like—what have been some of your life’s greatest surprises? And what’s one of the riskiest things you’ve ever done? Give your dad the most meaningful gift this year with StoryWorth. Get started right away without the need for shipping by going to StoryWorth.com/badmother. You’ll get $10 off of your first purchase. That’s StoryWorth.com/badmother for $10 off. [Music fades out.]
theresa
Hey, you know what it’s time for! This week’s genius and fails! This is the part of the show where we share our genius moment of the week, as well as our failures, and feel better about ourselves by hearing yours. You can share some of your own by calling 206-350-9485. That’s 206-350-9485.
biz
Genius fail time, James. Genius me!
clip
[Dramatic, swelling music in background.] Biz: Wow! Oh my God! Oh my God! I saw what you did! Oh my God! I’m paying attention! Wow! You, mom, are a genius. Oh my God, that’s fucking genius! [Biz and Theresa repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss their respective genius moments of the week.]
james
My genius was… that… I… volunteered at work to facilitate a discussion around racism! And what’s going on! I— [Biz laughs.] Yeah. I—I stepped up and volunteered and I helped to lead a discussion. I was grateful that it happened. And that I… um, sometimes have been wanting to withdraw ‘cause I am sad and I’m heavy and I’m hurt? And I’m finding my ways to… uh… push forward and stay active and engaged in my—in—in the way that I—the way that I can!
biz
That is, in fact, genius! [James laughs.] I—I had backup peanut butter on hand. I’m just kidding! [Laughs.] [James laughs.]
crosstalk
Biz: [Through laughter] I’m sorry! James: Hey, we all—
james
You know, we all have our geniuses in our own way.
crosstalk
James: My—don’t compete. Be unique. Um— [Laughs.] Biz: No, no. No, no. I— [Laughs.]
james
Gonna try to self-help you!
biz
I know you’re not being amazing at me, James. [Laughs.] [James laughs.]
james
Oh my god, I love that! [Laughs.]
biz
Oh, alright. So, yes. You are, in fact, doing an amazing job and once again—thank you!
james
Yay!
biz
For doing that! Just because I wanna continue to be a really great person, I am having these discussions with my kids. Uh, right now. Very specifically, I would love to keep my kids from having to know about any of this. I—y’know—it—it is… they are hard discussion. And they’re different. Katy Belle’s ten; Ellis is six. However, Ellis’s whole kindergarten class was about being, uh, citizens of the world. And they were already talk—I mean, sometimes— [Laughs.]
james
Oh my god!
biz
Ellis would, like, Ellis would like bust out on me sometimes where he’s like— [Laughs.] Like, Katy Belle will be like—you can’t do that. You’re too young. [James laughs.] “Age is not a limitation. To what I can or can’t do.” And I’m like, what the fuck [voice becomes high-pitched] is happening?
crosstalk
James: Yes! I love that! That gives me such hope! That’s insane! Oh, I love it. Biz: So, y’know. My—oh, I know. I know. I know. They’re—
biz
They are good kids. But like… it’s a hard work and I am doing it and… it—I have to do it and we all have to do it and so I hope that’s really everybody’s genius this week. And every week going forward. There ya go.
james
Yeah!
caller
[Answering machine beeps.] Hi! I’m calling in with a genius. I… have been running out of pandemic activities to keep my four-and-a-half-year-old occupied. Um, she loves being in water. She loves playing in water. We live in a small apartment. We do not have a backyard. We do not have [through laughter] a pool. Um… there’s only so long she can stay in the bathtub. Um, because she has eczema! So… I realized that I could put out a little tub of water and all of those—we do have, like, a tiny little, um, balcony so if I just—all of those toys that were sitting out there getting dirty that she’s been asking me to clean— [Biz laughs.] —that I haven’t had time to clean? I realized I could just squirt some dish soap into the tub and pour some water in and throw all those dirty toys in there for her to clean herself! Gave her a scrub brush and she went at it happily! Playing in the water and cleaning her own toys. Now, she is… inside. Happily scrubbing away at the dirty dishes. In the sink. And having a grand ol’ time at it. And I… am sitting down— [Biz laughs.] —having a cup of tea. Calling you. Feeling like I’ve just unlocked some secret parenting badge. I don’t know how long this is gonna last for? But… I’m going to enjoy it [through laughter] while it’s happening. Thank you so much for everything that you—Biz and Theresa—you do for us. Um, you’re both doing an amazing job. Thanks again! Bye.
biz
Alright. You are doing… a very good job. Sadly? Children cleaning dishes will not last past— [James laughs.] —into the tween years. Sadly. They’ll start asking for money. But what you’ve done right now is you have really turned that—I like to call it, the, like, Cinderella/Sleeping Beauty knob? Where it’s like, [singing] Work is fuuunnn! Work is fun! [Laughs.]
james
Yeah!
crosstalk
James: That’s so—that’s brilliant! Biz: [Through laughter] I get to do work! [Laughs.]
james
I’m taking notes. For when I get my adopt—my two adopted children and the one that I have. Like, that’s exactly what they’re doing. And then they’ll just be conditioned to the work and it’s not total—
biz
Yes! Conditioned!
james
Later we’ll have to spin this somehow… um… yeah.
biz
James? [James laughs.] So much is about spinning and bribery. So much. And—yeah. I also just really love the idea of whoever’s in the balcony below in the apartment?
crosstalk
James: Yes. Yes. It’s just a great image! [Laughs.] Biz: Just getting that water?
biz
Just getting that water. You are doing a very good job. And we are all trapped inside. You are doing wonderful! Good job! Failures!
clip
[Dramatic orchestral music plays in the background.] Theresa: [In a voice akin to the Wicked Witch of the West] Fail. Fail. Fail. FAIL! [Timpani with foot pedal engaged for humorous effect.] Biz: [Calmly] You suck! [Biz and Theresa repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss their respective failures of the week.]
biz
Fail me, James. [Laughs.]
james
Okay. Yeah. This is great. ‘Cause I don’t want everybody—everyone’s like, oh, James, he’s, y’know, so perfect. I’m not! Um—
biz
Yes, we are. Dreamy James is perfect.
james
At first I was gonna give—I don’t—was gonna give, um—at first my failure was gonna be, like, oh, I—y’know, I’ve not been going out to the protests and I feel like I’m not doing enough. But then I went with my—going back to my genius I did with what I—I could. So then my actual failure has just been, like, it’s not—it’s just something that I’m not doing in general? Listen. I said I’m a One Bad Guncle and that—I mean that. Um, I have… I don’t really know how many nephews and nieces? One of—my stepbrother just keeps having kids. I can’t keep track. [Biz laughs.] I couldn’t pick them out of a lineup. I—I know some of—that there’s—some names and I can maybe put them to? Um, I have one nephew that I adore—little Theo—uh, he’s just the world. But I have all these other ones that I just like— [Biz laughs.] —I have one that’s like 18. I think—he’s not gonna listen to this. He’s a little shit. Um—
biz
Yeah. No.
james
And you know what? This is where my failure is—I don’t like him. And— [Biz laughs.] —my failure is—I’m putting this out on blast? I just don’t! He’s just ungrateful. Um, all I can do is just, y’know, hope for the best for him that he finds his way, but he’s a little ungrateful shit. So I’m—
biz
18-year-olds sometimes are. [Laughs.]
james
I’ve—I’m not a good uncle. Because I think he’s— [Biz laughs.] I’m—I wanna just tell people, I don’t like him! [Laughs.]
biz
Yeah. Yeah. No, you’re doing a horrible, horrible job. Of being a Gruncle! Wow! Wow!
crosstalk
James: And listen—his birthday’s coming up? I’m not gonna wish him a happy birthday! Nothing! No! Biz: Not gonna send—shit! [Laughs.]
james
Nuh-uh! Not gonna—nothing! And I’m gonna—I’m gonna know it’s his birthday and know I’m not doing a damn thing. You know what I’m gonna do? Do something for myself. So.
crosstalk
Biz: Oh, good! Good! Spend that money on yourself! James: Yeah! [Laughs.]
biz
That’s right! I… once was a person who was on top of things. Uh, I… was very good at many, many things. Including—I thought reading an email! In fact, I am one of those smug people who were like, I know you’re not gonna read this but I’m gonna put information in it. [James laughs.] Right? Like, I’m like a smug email writer. And the kids are signed up to do online art camp.
james
Yeah.
biz
See how that works, guys.
james
Okay. Yeah.
biz
And I’m supposed to pick up some art supplies. And… I have read the email. Multiple times. So Wednesday I went by the school to pick them up. No one knew what the hell I was talking about. So I said, oh, no. No, no. It says—it says I’m supposed to pick it up! So I reopen the email and I say—oh! Tomorrow. Today’s not Thursday. It’s Wednesday. It’s-that’s me! Haha! And I leave. [James laughs.] And then today… yesterday I couldn’t go back to pick them up so I was like, oh, Friday. I gotta go pick—so I go. And… they’re—they’re still not there. And I look at the email and—and—I’m not even supposed to pick them up at that school! It’s definitely—it’s some other location.
james
Oh!
biz
And I don’t… like… like, with such confidence! I thought this was supposed to be what I was doing. And I don’t wanna go to that other location! That other location is not near me. [Laughs.] It’s not— [James laughs.] It’s not close. Y’know? Like, being out in the world is very stressful.
crosstalk
James: Yes! Oh my gosh! Biz: Uh, y’know. And so—
biz
It is—I’m gonna still—I’m gonna make a third trip tomorrow. To go pick up… these dumb art supplies.
james
Wow.
biz
And they better be worth it! They—there better be some things that I don’t have laying around this house. In those bags. That’s—yeah.
james
If it’s just some crayons and some chalk—
biz
If it is? [Laughs.]
james
—heads are gonna roll, school system!
biz
I’m just gonna—that is right! Unaffiliated summer camp!
caller
[Answering machine beeps.] Hey, One Bad Mother! I’m calling with a fail. I’m actually driving home from my fail as we speak. Uh… so this is an outdoor mishap. We were… going out for a walk. It’s the first walk that I’ve managed to convince my two-and-a-half-year-old to take with me, like, for five days. Uh, I was just really itching to get out. I was like, you know it’s finally nice outside. So I took her out for a walk to this place with a pond. We’re walking around the pond. She wants to throw rocks in the pond. She’s done this before. It’s been fine. I give her rocks to throw. Um, she walks up to the edge of the pond and just falls right in. And this was like… the dirtiest, scuzziest, nastiest pond? [Biz laughs.] Like, you can see all the algae and guck and grossness just all over it? [Laughs.] [Biz laughs.] So she’s just immediately covered. Her hair is covered. She’s screaming. She’s pissed off. And… I pull her out. Now I’m covered. [James laughs.] And this is basically my kid’s worst nightmare because she’s like one of those “don’t get dirt on me ever” kids. [Biz laughs.] And so I have to race her back to the stroller, which is now also covered in pond water. And, uh, take her back to the car seat, which is also now covered in pond water. [Biz laughs.] And now we’re going to spend the rest of the morning getting a bath and changing clothes and not going on the walk that I wanted to go on. [James laughs.] And hopefully she’ll go on it again with me sometime, but we’ll see. She tends to hold on to negative memories about a place, so. Hooray! [Laughs.] Yeah. That’s my fail. I hope you guys are all doing better than me today. [James laughs.] Thank you. Bye.
biz
Yeah. No. That’s—that’s—that’s horrible. You’ve done a horrible job. You’re—you’re—A—why would you even go outside? That’s such—that—
crosstalk
Biz: How grandiose! Grandi— [Laughs.] Yeah. That’s right. That’s right! James: Also, a bad start from the get-go. It’s a pandemic. [Laughs.]
biz
That’s right. You—we are teaching our children to be scared inside as much as possible. And—and I guess—so I guess on some levels you’ve taught them that the outside world is a dangerous, horrible place.
james
Scary place. [Laughs.]
biz
Yeah! And… yeah! Just… I… yeah! Why would you try and do anything nice like that? That’s… crazy. On the plus side—your child will never throw stones! Ohhh!
james
There ya go! Ooooh!
crosstalk
Biz: Thanks! Thank you! James: Love—well done!
biz
You’re actually doing a really wonderful job. But at the same time, don’t ever leave your house again.
music
“Mom Song” by Adira Amram. Mellow piano music with lyrics. You are the greatest mom I’ve ever known. I love you, I love you. When I have a problem, I call you on the phone. I love you, I love you. [Music fades out.]
music
Light, upbeat, inspirational-style piano and synth.
biz
One Bad Mother is supported in part by KiwiCo. KiwiCo is a subscription science and art box dedicated to making it easier for your kids to get creative and engaged. Both Katy Belle and Ellis have been getting KiwiCo crates for… ever! [Laughs.] For Katy Belle, who’s older, they are these really amazing and intensive art projects like—this most recent box was a weaving… baskets? Like, with rope baskets? Uh, which I thought was really awesome. And interesting and I was a little jealous. KiwiCo is redefining play with hands-on projects that build confidence, creativity, and critical thinking skills. There’s something for every kid or kid-at-heart. Do you mean I could’ve been doing these boxes? At KiwiCo. Get your first month free on select crates at KiwiCo.com/badmother. That’s K-I-W-I-C-O.com/badmother. [Music fades out.]
promo
Music: Faint, suspenseful violin music in background. Justin McElroy: We’re the hosts of My Brother, My Brother and Me, and now—nearly ten years into our podcast—the secret can be revealed. All the clues are in place. And the world’s greatest treasure hunt can now begin. Griffin McElroy: Embedded in each episode of My Brother, My Brother and Me is a micro-clue that will lead you to 14 precious gemstones, all around this big, beautiful blue world of ours. Travis McElroy: So start combing through the episodes—eh, let’s say—starting at episode 101 on. Griffin: Yeah, the early episodes are pretty problematic, so there’s no clues in those episodes. Travis: No. No, not at all. Griffin: The better ones—the good ones? Clues ahoy. Justin McElroy: Listen to every episode repeatedly in sequence. Laugh if you must, but mainly, get all the great clues. My Brother, My Brother and Me: it’s an advice show, kind of, but a treasure hunt, mainly. Anywhere you find podcasts or treasure maps, My Brother, My Brother and Me—the hunt is on!
promo
Music: Light, swinging jazz band music. John Hodgman: Hey, everyone! It's I, John Hodgman of the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Elliott Kalan: And I, Elliott Kalan of the Flop House podcast. John: And we've made a whole new podcast! A 12-episode special miniseries called I, Podius. In which we recap, discuss, and explore the very famous 1976 BBC miniseries about Ancient Rome called I, Claudius! We've got incredible guests such as Gillian Jacobs, Paul F. Tompkins, as well as star of I, Claudius Sir Patrick Stewart! And his son! Non-Sir Daniel Stewart. Elliott: Don't worry, Dan, you'll get there someday. John: I, Podius is the name of the show! Every week from MaximumFun.org for only 12 weeks. Get 'em at MaximumFun.org, or wherever you get your podcasts. [Music fades out.]
biz
So guys… seems like the new format of the show for a little while is going to be me having the, uh… delightful honor of speaking to great people. More of a… guest weekend than just a guest moment like we usually do. And normally at this time, I would say that we always have somebody special on every week and that’s, uh, a mom having a breakdown. But… as I have given this week, uh, a great deal of thought—usually, guys, we record on Mondays. And it’s like the start of the week. And now I am recording on Fridays and… that really—I have found—puts quite a different lens on the show and where I am when I come into the show. And I just feel like… the entire country is having a collective breakdown. At the moment. And… so… instead of… listening to a call this week, I’m just gonna go straight to how we wrap it up on this show. Because I think we all need to hear that this week. What did we learn this week, James? This week… well… there’s the blatantly obvious things we have learned.
james
[Laughs.] Yeah. We learned that—
biz
Racism? Bad! [Laughs.]
james
Racism—bad.
crosstalk
James: It’s still here. Biz: Racism, bad. Yeah. Still here!
james
Still here! And that like I think we learned like what we all now need to do. Like, there’s an awakening in that, y’know, being anti-racist and being an activist are necessary commitments that we have to commit to!
biz
Yeah. If you—I mean, it is… no different than any of the other difficult conversations that we will have to have with our children. We cannot avoid talking about death with our children. We cannot avoid talking about sex with our children. We cannot avoid… talking about… inequality in our country with our children. Because it’s there.
james
Yeah.
biz
Guys? It is incredibly hard right now. We always say on this show—we never know what’s going on in somebody else’s life. And as parents we have usually honed in on that when it comes to the mom having the breakdown at Target. The kid screaming on the bus. The woman crossing the street with all the groceries and five kids. Before we assume the worst, we should assume the best because… we don’t know what’s going on at home. We do not know if—I think about that—as silly as that call was with that—the genius with the mom and the water and the tub, how easy it is when people… come out and say—I’m struggling with something. My kid likes—how do I pass the time? Well, aren’t I helpful! Let me give you all the things that are totally fine without taking into account that your child might have eczema. There might be a fear of water. There might be, y’know, not the space available to do the things that I have the space available to do. This is exactly… like… this larger… context that we find ourselves in now. We cannot continue to make assumptions about people. We need to check our assumptions before we pass judgment.
james
Mm.
biz
What we should be walking out there with is the idea that we are all trying our best and we all want the best for our children? And we all want our children to be… safe. Okay? That said? We are not experiencing this world the same. And… that is something we need to—to say to ourselves and to say to each other.
james
Mm-hm.
biz
Okay? Many things can be happening at the same time. I can completely acknowledge that, uh, people of color are walking through this world differently than me.
james
Mm-hm.
biz
I am—I am concerned every time my child goes outside of the house but god, it is not the same. My kid can wear a hoodie. ‘K? My kid can go birdwatching. My kid can do fucking anything that they want on some level because of the color of their skin and I think that is unbearable that someone else doesn’t have that same privilege. You are all… doing this under a pandemic? And you’re all doing this with kids in your house. And like, under normal circumstances, James, I can sit here and tell, like, our listeners—god! You’re tired. [Laughs.]
james
Mm-hm.
biz
God! Somebody is touching you all fucking day and it’s too much. [James laughs.] Somebody’s talking to you all day and it is too much. You are trying to do all of your jobs and your work and there are children there. And they don’t care.
james
Right.
biz
And, y’know, there’s guilt. And there’s stress. And there’s tired. And there’s worry. And there’s fear and there’s no sleep and there are babies screaming all night long and there is poop in the bathtub and no one cares that you got your kid to sleep last night. All of this—all of this is a big old soup that we are living in right now? And I encourage us to go out and continue to… not be a jerk.
james
Mm-hm.
biz
Don’t assume anybody is—I know that James is not being a better person at me. He just is. [James laughs.] ‘K? Um… those people who are able to protest and are able to be out there and are able to speak up are not doing it at you? And we really have an opportunity when we feel like there’s nothing for us to do. When the times are dark and scary. I—I… think that James has helped remind us that we do have something we can do. We can teach our children to go out… and be better. James? Thank you so much. For joining us. A good place that everyone can start is going and listening to Minority Korner.
james
Yesss!
biz
Because they are having these discussions— [James laughs.] —they’ve been having these discussions!
james
For years! [Laughs.]
biz
Um—yeah! I mean… y’know. So go and check that out. That will be a good resource for where to go next.
james
Yeah!
biz
Okay?
james
Thank you for having me! This has been such a delight. I’ve enjoyed this conversation so much and I just also want to—I encourage—like, thank you for the work that you’re doing. And the other parents. The other listeners. I know you’ve got a—there’s a great community here at MaxFun. And so I—like, everybody just keep going. Keep going. Keep going. We can do this. We will do this. Uh, your children are gong to also do this. Um, and just to keep going! Keep going. Keep going. Breathe. Dance. Keep going. So thank you!
biz
That’s right. Theresa? Wherever you are and I’m pretty sure it’s the sixth level of Hell, I know that you are doing a very good job. Uh, we see you. Uh… and… I’ve got your back. As long as you need it. Um… James? You are doing a very good job. You are… doing more than you have to do and I—I really appreciate it.
james
Mm.
biz
Everybody? We are going to continue to be here. We will talk to you next week. Byeee!
james
Bye, y’all!
music
“Mama Blues” by Cornbread Ted and the Butterbeans. Strumming acoustic guitar with harmonica and lyrics. _I got the lowdown momma blues_ Got the lowdown momma blues Gots the lowdown momma blues The lowdown momma blues Gots the lowdown momma blues Got the lowdown momma blues You know that’s right [Music fades somewhat, plays in background of dialogue.]
biz
We’d like to thank MaxFun; our producer, Hannah Smith; our husbands, Stefan Lawrence and Jesse Thorn; our perfect children, who provide us with inspiration to say all these horrible things; and of course, you, our listeners. To find out more about the songs you heard on today’s podcast and more about the show, please go to MaximumFun.org/onebadmother. For information about live shows, our book and press, please check out OneBadMotherPodcast.com.
james
One Bad Mother is a member of the Maximum Fun family of podcasts. To support the show go to MaximumFun.org/donate. [Music continues for a while before fading out.]
speaker 2
Comedy and culture.
speaker 3
Artist owned—
speaker 4
—Audience supported.
About the show
One Bad Mother is a comedy podcast hosted by Biz Ellis about motherhood and how unnatural it sometimes is. We aren’t all magical vessels!
Join us every week as we deal with the thrills and embarrassments of motherhood and strive for less judging and more laughing.
Call in your geniuses and fails: 206-350-9485. For booking and guest ideas, please email onebadmother@maximumfun.org. To keep up with One Bad Mother on social media, follow @onebadmothers on Twitter and Instagram.
Get in touch with the show
onebadmother@maximumfun.org
@OneBadMothers
@onebadmothers
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