Transcript
biz ellis
This is Biz. I’m a part-time working mom with two full-blown kids.
theresa thorn
And I’m Theresa. I have a family business, two young kids, and a toddler.
biz
This is a show about life after giving life. Don’t listen with your kids, ‘cause there will be swears. This… is One Bad Mother.
music
“Summoning the Rawk” by Kevin MacLeod. Driving electric guitar and heavy drums. [Continues through dialogue.]
biz
This week on One Bad Mother—they can smell our fear! Plus, the lies come easy for Biz; Theresa is full of crisp mountain air; and we talk to Lauren Schneider about handling grief as parents.
crosstalk
Biz and Theresa: Wooooo! [Biz laughs.] [Biz and Theresa repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss their respective weeks.]
biz
I—
theresa
Yeah.
biz
I just forgot—
crosstalk
Theresa: Where’d you go? Where’d you go? Biz: —about—what—I just went—I was like—
biz
I did the opening. Job over! [Theresa laughs.] I gotta—I gotta get on with my life. Sorry about that! Wow, I did! I just like—Theresa’s eyes are looking at me like—
theresa
I was like—
crosstalk
Biz: Yeah! Where—where’d Biz go?! Theresa: What’s happening?!
theresa
What—am I wrong? Or like, is there not a “woooo” here? [Laughs.] [Biz laughs.] What’s happening?
biz
So…? How are you, Theresa?
theresa
Okay. Mm-hm. That’s correct.
crosstalk
Theresa: That is—the way it goes. Biz: That’s the right thing I’m supposed to say.
biz
Okay. Good. [Laughs.] It’s gonna be that kind of show. [Theresa laughs.]
theresa
I am doing well. I am no longer sick, by some miracle.
biz
Ah-choo!
crosstalk
Theresa: Uh—yeah. Thanks. Thank you so much. Biz: You’re welcome. [Laughs.]
theresa
Um—I… spent last weekend—the long weekend for President’s Day—up in the mountains with my family. And some friends of ours and their young children.
biz
Ohhhh!
theresa
Which can be a sack of bananas.
biz
Yes, it can!
theresa
As you all well know.
biz
Like a cabin of bananas!
theresa
A real— [Biz laughs.]
biz
Sack of bananas. [Laughs.]
theresa
—real hefty sack. But I just… had a nice time. Like, these friends are great. They like my children. And my children like them.
biz
Oh, that’s a plus!
theresa
I mean—
biz
That helps!
theresa
It’s huge!
biz
Yeah!
theresa
And people just got along and we had a nice… time! I mean, I don’t— [Biz laughs.] You know? I know! I know. Biz is looking at me, like, waiting for the other shoe to drop. But I do think, y’know, it’s partially kinda just me getting the hang of… going on these little trips. But also… my kids are getting older and they can do more stuff for themselves! And it actually affects my life a lot! Like, that stuff is real! Like, the sleep stuff is real. You know? And… my friend who was up there was saying to me at one point, like, it’s so—y’know, it’s so incredibly beautiful up here in the mountains. And I agreed and I said, y’know… we’ve been coming up here, y’know, for probably about four years now. And… like, only recently have I been able to… take in the surroundings. Like, a little bit. Like, really notice where I am? And like—enjoy it? Versus—looking and telling myself… I’m supposed to be enjoying it.
biz
This is a big thing.
theresa
Yeah!
biz
This is that shift… I don’t think we give enough weight to… like, these—the early years. When people say ‘early years,’ they think, like, til two. Right? And I’m like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no! It’s like—we really do live in like this weird place of… like… the shark place. You’re always going. You’re always moving. You’re always—
theresa
Hypervigilant.
biz
—hypervigilance. The whole nine—and even to, like, through sleep! You know you might have to get up. And then… when you crest—like, just when the age—doesn’t mean the problems are gone? Or like the concerns are gone? It’s that… with the age comes a little… less of—of that.
crosstalk
Biz: It’s a different state. But it—it’s a little space! And—yeah! Theresa: Yeah. It’s just a little space there. Yeah. Yeah.
biz
I—it—that’s real! And I’m glad you got to enjoy some of it!
theresa
Yeah, thanks!
biz
Yeah! That’s nice!
theresa
Thank you! How are you, Biz?
biz
I’m good. [Laughs.] I had this experience. I just—like—how fast, like, lies now can come out of my mouth to the children? And this was—this was a pretty good one. Like, it made me laugh at—I didn’t even—I wasn’t even aware I was doing it? Until after it was done and I was like—oh, phew! That was good. So… Katy Belle and Ellis were making valentines. For us.
theresa
Mm-hm.
biz
And Katy Belle comes out and she’s like—do we have paper? Yep. The paper’s in the art supply box. Do we have paintbrushes? Yep. They’re in the paintbrushes. Do we have glitter? No. [Long pause.] We have no glitter. We have no glitter? Yeah. We have none. She’s like, oh. Okay! I was like, you’ll figure something out. Okay! We do. We have—I still have a drawer full of glitter from before. Including that gold glitter that Katy Belle—I mean, that Ellis—whoever my children are—dumped all over themselves in the car. We still have glitter. I just… did not want them to use glitter.
theresa
Yeah.
biz
I—I may even be becoming anti-glitter… in the world.
theresa
Sure!
biz
But I just was so impressed… by like how fast I was just flat-out—no! We have no glitter. It’s all gone.
theresa
Yeah.
biz
And we have like five bottles of glitter.
theresa
That’s amazing.
biz
Yeah! So I felt… I felt good about that?
theresa
Yeah! [Biz laughs.]
crosstalk
Theresa: Feel good about that! You should! Biz: You know? I—I—thank you.
biz
And that was a win. It could’ve gone in a completely different direction because there was a time when glitter was my weakness. I loved the glitter. The children could play with the children all day. And Katy Belle knows that. Which I think ties in nicely to what we’re gonna talk about today—which is… our children knowing our weaknesses.
promo
Banjo strums; cheerful banjo music continues through dialogue.
theresa
Please—take a moment to remember: If you’re friends of the hosts of One Bad Mother, you should assume that when we talk about other moms, we’re talking about you.
biz
If you are married to the host of One Bad Mother, we definitely are talking about you.
theresa
Nothing we say constitutes professional parenting advice.
biz
Biz and Theresa’s children are brilliant, lovely, and exceedingly extraordinary.
theresa
Nothing said on this podcast about them implies otherwise. [Banjo music fades out.] [Biz and Theresa repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss the weekly topic.]
biz
Theresa. [Makes robot-y techno noises] Beep boop boop beep bop beep boop!
theresa
Ow! Ow! Stop pushing my buttons!
biz
Boop boop boop!
theresa
Stop!
biz
Your buttons! Is this the button for ice cream? Boop! Is this the button for playing one more game? Boop! [Theresa laughs.] Our children—precious, precious angels—may instinctively—I think we have spoken in the past about just… nature has programmed children to figure out how to get what they need. Vi—like, whining. We’ve talked about that. I want us to talk a little bit today about, like… do our kids—as they have gotten older—and it’s less about, like, primary needs of like… y’know, “I need food. I need sleep. I need,” y’know, “Wahhh! Wahhh! Wahhh!” Now—
theresa
Mm-hm. Change me!
biz
Change me! Now that they’re—yeah, I knew there was a third. [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.] Kids need something. Now that they’re older, have they caught on to the game? As it were. In… in figuring us out. Have your children… figured you out to their advantage?
theresa
In some ways, yes!
biz
Ooooh!
theresa
I—I have noticed that there are certain things that… my kids have figured out… they like and I like. And that if they suggest it…
biz
Ahhhh!
theresa
If there’s time for it I’m gonna have a really hard time saying no. So for example— [Biz laughs.] —for… a long time, if it was like a weekend morning and Jesse was working—the kids would suggest can we get donuts and go to the park. And… this—I pretty much could not say no to. Because—
biz
I agree!
theresa
I love donuts. And I want to get my kids out to the park and so, like— [Biz laughs.] —the promise of donuts helps everyone get out the door. And then we end up at the park and we’re having donuts and we’re playing at the park. [Biz laughs.] So like—
biz
[Through laughter] Wait. It’s the reverse bribe.
theresa
Yeah!
biz
Our bribes have come back to haunt us!
theresa
It is a reverse bribe.
crosstalk
Biz: It is the—they have figured out—yeah! Theresa: It’s my kids bribing me. Yeah.
biz
Wooo!
theresa
Yes. You’re exactly right.
biz
Surprise!
theresa
They’re bribing me. And it’s the same with—like—family movie night? Which—we odn’t really make it to the night because my kids go to bed pretty early? [Biz laughs.] Like, especially Curtis? But—but like—my kids will suggest on the weekend—can we have a family movie? And… I like watching movies! And I like making popcorn! [Biz laughs.] So… I have a really hard time saying no to that! Like, I’m pretty much always like—let’s figure out a way to do that! [Biz laughs.] Like, I’ll say yes to that! Y’know? Like, I—yeah. It’s interesting. And then there’s also, like, the other way that this comes around that I’ve noticed is… in asking for things. Which I think is sort of a more grey area because my kids have realized that sometimes when they ask me for something, I will say yes. And sometimes I will say no. This has the effect of… making them ask for every possible thing all the time. Just in case I might say yes. [Biz laughs.] And I’ve noticed that… this is one that, like, I don’t think any of us have exactly figured out the formula? But like I know a lot of parents share this thing where for some reason books are okay?
crosstalk
Biz: Yeah! Yeah, yeah, yeah! Theresa: Like, it’s—
theresa
Which is like so odd? [Biz laughs.] Like—
biz
Books are okay.
theresa
Books you can say yes to. They still fill up your house? They are still expensive if you’re buying them new. They’re—it’s still, like, a… consumer mentality? Of like… give me more, give me the next one? There’s amazing things about book. [Biz laughs.] I often say yes to books! But it’s—it’s interesting… that… like, that’s—and it’s the same with like, y’know, Curtis, he just turned three. He has a lot of diverse interests and he really loves, like, costumes and dressing up like his favorite characters. And… most of the favorite characters that he’s most into are like more male? But there’s like a few girls that he likes to dress up as. So I’ve noticed that whenever he wants like an Elsa—like, the day he asked for an Elsa dress? I literally bought him a dress that day.
biz
Yeah!
theresa
Like—there’s, like, very few things— [Biz laughs.] —where he can get it that easily? But I was like—oh my god. Like—yes! Of course you can have a dress! [Laughs.] Like— [Biz laughs.] And I think that is well-founded because I think in our society and in our culture, our kids are being given gendered gifts all the time? And nobody’s gonna buy him an Elsa dress unless he asks for it. So I think it’s kinda mess—it’s a messed-up scenario. Like, I feel okay that—that I did say yes and get it right away? But I also just think it’s funny? Like—what is—what does he think about that?
crosstalk
Theresa: Like, what does he think about— Biz: Well, yeah!
biz
Because that’s not so much about—‘cause that’s where I am. Like, every so—I have a lot of grey areas, too. Where it’s like—alright. Ellis is the same. If he asked for something completely… non-traditional, gender—play-toy wise, I’m like—
crosstalk
Theresa: You’re like—today. Yeah! Yeah! You can have all of them! Do you need a house for them? Do you need—books for them? Yeah. Yeah. [Laughs.] Biz: You can have all the fucking ponies. We are gonna play all the ponies! Do you need a house for the ponies? Do you need a dream car for them? Yeah. [Laughs.] Whatever you need!
biz
Right? Fingernail polish for the ponies. Whatever. That is way more about… me! He doesn’t—he’s not manipulating me. He’s not, like—he hasn’t figured that out! Right? So… and there’s like a couple of those where I’m like… alright. He hasn’t fig—or if it’s like—really small.
theresa
Yeah! Really small.
biz
It’s really small. And I’m gonna be a target anyway? It’s really small. Alright. Yeah, you get the—the really small one. Right? Like—that’s an—again, I don’t think he’s figured it out. When he tries to get something… that I’ve said no to—this is his attempt to persuade me. And I don’t know where it came from, but it’s pretty good. And it’s— [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.] First there’s several “pleases”—Pleeease? Pleeeease? I’ll give you a dollarrrr! And I’m like—
theresa
Grace tries to buy things off me, too, all the time.
biz
I’m like, make it ten and we have a deal! But a dollar’s not gonna get it for you. Alright, I’ll give you te—no. No.
theresa
That’s not—yeah.
crosstalk
Biz: Yeah! So like— Theresa: That’s so funny.
biz
That’s—he’s not very good yet. At like the button-pushing. Right? Katy Belle… has figured out one thing. And that is… if she’s had, like, a really bad day. Right? Like, something—‘cause we’re in the place now of like, y’know, everybody went. We all said we were gonna go to this, and then… they weren’t there. They had changed locations and no one had told me—like, at school. Like, for lunch.
crosstalk
Theresa: Mm-hm. Like social things. Yeah. Biz: For social stuff!
biz
Y’know, and I’m just like—that sucks. Y’know? I know it’s not life-ending but like… if it’s been a particularly, like, brought-to-tears kind of day… y’know, she knows that she can probably get a little something extra. Like—a little extra TV time or… a little ice cream, maybe. At a time that’s not dessert. Right? And I am kind of like, yeah. Alright. Like, yeah, y’know? You need a nice—a nice thing.
theresa
I’ll take care of you. Yeah.
biz
I will take care of you. And there are times where I can’t because like I know it’s not that bad and she’s just, like, trying to get something. And we—and I try and limit that. Right? There’s something that I think… she does… and she thinks she’s getting it for one reason. But I’m actually giving in for another reason. And that will be, like… playing a game at night. Before bed. Right? Like, so—let’s say—or any activity. Mama, can we play checkers tonight? Or, y’know, this card game. And I’ll be like—yeah, okay. We can do one. But then that’s it. ‘K? I have work to do tonight, so just the one. Okay. We do the one. Can we have—can we just do—maybe one more? Just, like, one more? Right? And I—[long pause.] I want to say no. But sometimes I say yes not because she’s made a good joke or she’s pleaded her case or it’s a—y’know—revenge!!! Or whatever. However we do in our house. But I’ll have this quick flash of—she goes to college tomorrow! And I’m like—what’s one fucking more game. Right? Like—and then she gets to stay up a little later and I don’t like the habits because I feel like—part of this button-pushing thing goes back to the thing that your kids do where they’re ask—and by “your kids,” every kid— [Laughs.] Like, I’m just gonna ask…for everything!
crosstalk
Theresa: All the time—sometimes it’ll hit it. Yeah. Biz: ‘Cause—sometimes it’ll—I’ll hit it.
biz
It’s gambling!
theresa
Yeah! Gambling! Yeah.
biz
And I think we’ve already admitted that we set that up.
theresa
Oh, yes.
biz
For our children. And… y’know… I guess the question is—is this good or bad? Like… is it bad that they push our buttons if it’s something that’s enjoyable? Like going to the park and getting donuts!
theresa
Yeah.
biz
Or playing an extra game with your child! Right? Like… where does this land in the grand scheme of… parenting concerns? Is it slippery slope? Is it [dramatic voice] spoiling? [Regular voice] Is— [Laughs.]
theresa
I mean, I think—I’m inclined to think that like… most of it is—is pretty innocent on all sides. And can lead to us having enjoyable experiences together. Even if it is buying your kid something from Target that they want, sometimes that makes [though laughter] everyone really happy! Like, sometimes that’s not… but I think the—I think the way that it goes—that things kind of… go wrong… in—in my family with this, is… when it isn’t totally clear what the expectations are on all sides? As far as like, why they’re getting something now and not another time? Or why I’m saying yes and I’m in a good mood now and later I’m like—[frustrated voice] stop asking for things! [Biz laughs.] Like—
biz
Yeah.
theresa
That’s a little bit of a tough one. Like, I think it’s—I think it’s real—like, I think our kids are working so hard. To try to understand… why—what our rules are. And what their boundaries are. And they are pushing boundaries ‘cause they’re trying to figure out what the actual boundaries are!
biz
Right.
theresa
And so if they don’t have a good solid sense of what those are? And they’re continuing to… kind of… try and fail over and over? That is gonna make me upset. I’m gonna get stressed out. And then they’re gonna see that I’m stressed out, but maybe not understand what went wrong and just feel bad about it. Which I think is… is a real reason to try to, like… get some clarity on some of this stuff? ‘Cause it just does—like, you’re right! I think if—if my kids know that most of the time on the weekend if they ask for these particular activities I’m gonna say yes? And that mostly is true? But like it might not be true that… y’know… we’re gonna… I don’t know. Like, something else that I would say no to is more iffy. Like, if they understand that framework and that’s the framework we’re working in most of the time, I think it’s okay. It’s more that other— [Biz laughs.]
crosstalk
Theresa: That other stuff. Biz: There’s just a lot of grey!
theresa
Yeah! Like, ‘cause I’m in a good mood I’m gonna say yes to something today. That’s… I almost think it—tell me what you think about this, but I almost think it’s okay to say, like… like, I feel like—and I don’t know if it works! But I feel like a lot of times I want to say, like—hey, this is a special… kind of like a special occasion. A special treat. You know. When we go for something like that. But then the effect that has is like—I’ve noticed—like, I was talking about, um, last week, Oscar with the dairy. Like, sometimes saying yes, sometimes saying no— [Biz laughs.] —he’s now gotten in the habit of—when he’s asking for it, he’ll say—mom, do you think just for this, like… special time that we could…
crosstalk
Theresa: And I’m like—it’s a tough one! Biz: Katy Belle and Ellis both use that one.
theresa
‘Cause I’m like—I—yes, I know I set you up with this language. But this isn’t really [though laughter] a special time!
crosstalk
Biz: It’s just Tuesday. Theresa: Like, there’s nothing—
theresa
This is just Tuesday. Yeah. [Biz laughs.] Like, I—y’know. And so I think that… it really is that, like, actions speak louder than words thing? Like, you can say all you want your reasoning behind something.
biz
Oh yeah!
theresa
But like, what they’re getting from it is…
crosstalk
Theresa: Sometimes they say yes. Biz: Complete—everything they want? [Laughs.]
theresa
Yes. Sometimes everything they want. Yeah. True.
music
“Ones and Zeroes” by “Awesome.” Steady, driving electric guitar with drum and woodwinds. [Music fades out.]
biz
Music: Laid-back acoustic guitar plays in the background. One Bad Mother is supported in part by Grove Collaborative. I have been trying to switch the products that I use in my house to more environmentally-friendly products with sustainability and… almost zero impact on our planet. And that is a rabbit hole that is very easy to fall down on most websites. And that is where Grove Collaborative comes in to solve that problem!
theresa
Yeah! So they say that 70% of people want to use natural products, but only 2% do. And that’s because shopping for natural products is hard. But with Grove Collaborative, they deliver all-natural home, beauty, and personal-care products directly to you. And… they make homes happier and healthier! And shipping is fast and free on your first order.
biz
For a limited time, when you go to Grove.co/mother, you will get a free five-piece cleaning set from Mrs. Meyers and Grove! That is a $30 value! Again, that’s Grove.co/mother. [Music fades out.]
theresa
Hey, you know what it’s time for! This week’s genius and fails! This is the part of the show where we share our genius moment of the week, as well as our failures, and feel better about ourselves by hearing yours. You can share some of your own by calling 206-350-9485. That’s 206-350-9485.
biz
Genius fail time, Theresa. Genius me!
clip
[Dramatic, swelling music in background.] Biz: Wow! Oh my God! Oh my God! I saw what you did! Oh my God! I’m paying attention! Wow! You, mom, are a genius. Oh my God, that’s fucking genius! [Biz and Theresa repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss their respective genius moments of the week.]
theresa
So… the crib is gone. And… [Laughs.] The room that Oscar and Curtis sleep in now? For the first time in several years, looks like a regular bedroom? [Biz laughs.] It has a bunk bed. It has a desk for Oscar to work aaaaat.
biz
[Excited, fawning, high-pitched voice.] Oh my god!
theresa
Which he loves! And then it has, like, a little space for each of them to like keep their clothes and their stuff and then it has a chair to sit in, like, a big chair for, like, reading with a parent or whatever.
biz
That’s so nice!
theresa
And it’s—it’s just—I—I did it. Y’know. I built the stuff. I put everything—y’know, I—or reorganized everything. And… I feel really good that they have, like—it—what is no longer just, like, sleeping quarters. It’s now, like, a room that they can use and enjoy.
biz
Good job!
theresa
Thank you.
biz
Good job.
theresa
Thanks.
biz
So, we did recently have a long, four-day weekend. And… I… made sure that I requested—during those days in which everyone was home, including Stefan—that I still went out and did a walk.
theresa
Mm.
biz
Right? I’ve been trying to get back into my walking the Rose Bowl. It’s very important that I do this, but usually on a long day weekends or weekends I don’t ask for that time! And this time I said hey, I’d like to go do the walk today and then later I was like, I’m gonna go do the walk today. And I got ‘em in! And it—y’know, really affects my mood. Surprise!
theresa
It’s huge. So huge.
crosstalk
Biz: But I asked! Theresa: Good job!
biz
Thank you!
caller
[Answering machine beeps.] Hi, Biz and Theresa! I have a genius! Um— [Laughs.] My amazing 14-month-old kid has an ear infection and he’s on amoxicillin, the liquid kind, which he hates and which gives him horrible, horrible diarrhea. And he does not want to take the probiotic gummies when I try to get him to eat them, but he likes to pick up and put anything in his mouth if he’s not supposed to. So I left [though laughter] probiotics gummy—I—I left three of them, uh, sitting on one of his, uh… like, a stacking block toys. As though it was not supposed to be there. [Biz and Theresa laugh.] And… sure enough? He immediately—upon entering the room—went over, picked them up, and ate them! So— [Biz and Theresa laugh louder.] —he has now had his probiotic gummies that he would not take voluntarily, but if they are found and not supposed to be eaten he will happily eat them. It’s the dumbest genius in the world, but hey—it felt pretty good. [Laughs.] Love you guys. You’re doing an amazing job and I’m generally fucking everything up— [Biz laughs.] —but this I did right and now I just realized I just said “fuck” in front of my child. Anyway. [Laughs.] Take care. Bye.
biz
This is…
theresa
It’s—
biz
So good!
theresa
So good!
biz
Way to—way to take your child’s— [Laughs.] Habits and use them to your advantage. I—I mean, there’s no way this can backfire one day. [Theresa laughs.] Which is what’s great. There’s no way.
theresa
Just start leaving broccoli out…
biz
Yeah! Just all kind of pills. [Both laugh.] Actually, I do like the idea of like, picky children—just being able to leave, like, some broccoli? Don’t put that in your mouth! [Faux chiding tone] Awww, you ate the broccoli! [Regular voice] You’re doing great. This is a win. And I think you should share it. Just with like… people at work or on the bus or just at the grocery—wherever you are? Just tap ‘em on the shoulder. [Theresa laughs.] Hey, I gotta tell you a little something that happened! You are doing an amazing job. Failures!
clip
[Dramatic orchestral music plays in the background.] Theresa: [In a voice akin to the Wicked Witch of the West] Fail. Fail. Fail. FAIL! [Timpani with foot pedal engaged for humorous effect.] Biz: [Calmly] You suck! [Biz and Theresa repeatedly affirm each other as they discuss their respective failures of the week.]
biz
Fail me, Theresa.
theresa
Okay. I’m gonna preface this by saying—everyone is safe. Everyone is okay. No one was harmed in this story. Don’t want people to be too freaked out. But over the weekend—this is a double fail—Jesse and I share the blame for this. We had gone for a hike with the family, and the dogs, and we returned from the hike and… we just didn’t bring the dogs in from the car? [Biz laughs.] For the longest—like, thankfully—it was neither hot enough nor—nor cold enough nor sunny enough that the car temperature was a problem. For the dogs. But… it really took way longer than it should have? For me to say… where are the dogs? Are the dogs still in the car? And Jesse looked at me and went— [long pause] “Maybe they are.”
biz
Wow.
theresa
And I went out and there they were and they were [though laughter] very happy to come back inside. I think it was over an hour. I think it was over an hour after we got home.
crosstalk
Theresa: ‘Cause we were giving the kids lunch! Everybody had to take off their snow gear. We had the other family was there. It was— Biz: I—yeah! You gotta get kids out. Everybody out of the car. Yeah! Bathrooms. Yeah!
theresa
Yeah.
biz
Wow!
theresa
Yeah.
biz
I—I am sorry ‘cause I bet that was scary.
theresa
It sucked!
crosstalk
Theresa: I’m glad it was—I’m glad it was okay. Yeah. Biz: Yeah. I—that—I am so glad it was like— [Laughs.]
biz
Wow. Well! Don’t ever go anywhere, Theresa.
theresa
Yeah, I know.
biz
Yeah. This morning… I lost my keys.
theresa
Mmm.
biz
At the kids’ school. [Theresa gasps loudly.]
theresa
Oh no!
biz
So I had… to take the kids to school today and then I stay until Ellis goes in to his classroom so… right about nine. And then I have to get to the studio to record! Eh, which takes, y’know, thirty minutes or blah, blah, blah. It’s important that I leave on time.
theresa
Mm-hm.
biz
I had my work computers with me, and my phone. And I’ve been doing this thing where I don’t bring my purse or my phone into the school with me. ‘Cause it’s just, like, one extra thing? And like I’m running with Ellis and all this stuff. I have—y’know, usually put it on my messy car floor. Lock the doors.
theresa
The school doesn’t need to reach you ‘cause you’re at the school.
biz
Right! ‘Cause I’m there. I always make sure I have my keys.
theresa
Uh-huh.
biz
I had my keys in my hand. Plus some materials that needed to go into the school. We lock the car and we go to school. We go by his classroom to return all the artwork of all the children that actually—that accidentally came home with us the week before? I was like, this isn’t Ellis’s artwork! [Laughs.] In fact, it’s 24 pages of not Ellis’s artwork. We then go to the school bulletin board that I am now in charge of and, uh, put up some new materials. And then Ellis and I do what we always do, which is—race each other around the school track. Four or five times. [Laughs.] Then it’s time to go, and I say goodbye to Ellis and… I no longer have those papers with me in my hand, but I also realize I no longer have my keys.
theresa
Mm.
biz
And… I go back to the classroom. They’re not there. I go back to the bulletin board. They’re not there. I go back outside and I start walking the racetrack to see if they’re there. They’re not there. And I am starting to think—I don’t even have my phone to, like, call Stefan—this is gonna—like, are they in my—what’s gonna happen? I’m not gonna be able to come to work. This—or do anything! For that matter. And then I was like—I guess I’ll go check the kids’ lost and found which is this box of just sweatshirts and water bottles that’s outside? And laying on top were my keys! Somebody had—
crosstalk
Biz: —picked them up and put them in the lost and found. Theresa: Somebody had found them and put them there. [Laughs.]
biz
So… yeah! I just… and like I really didn’t know… where they were.
theresa
Right! And you’ll never know where they were!
biz
I’ll never know where they were. Yeah.
theresa
You’ll probably do it again.
crosstalk
Theresa: Another day. [Laughs.] Biz: Oh, I’m gonna do it again, like, 18 more times, guys!
biz
But now I know to speed the process up by—
crosstalk
Biz: —checking out lost and found! Theresa: Just go to the lost and found. [Laughs.]
biz
Good training, school! [Theresa laughs.]
caller
[Answering machine beeps.] Hi, One Bad Mother! I am calling with a fail. Recently we had a last-minute custody change with my stepson—15-year-old stepson—and it was kinda out of the blue and… so it meant a lot more driving for us and just a lot more stuff and then I’m—I’m starting a lot more extra, like, I’m in a show in a civic theater so I’m in a bunch of rehearsals and my husband has things. Anyway. Our schedules have been crazy busy and we are running our 15-year-old all over the place. And… my five-year-old—wait. She’s six. That’s another fail. [Biz laughs.] I forgot how old my kid was! Anyway. My five-year-old has kind of suffered because she’s, like, the fourth kid and…we kinda sometimes forget about her. And stuff. Anyway. We were so busy with running the kid around and going to all of our extra things that we forgot to give our six-year-old a bath. For, like, the whole week. Um… so she never asked ‘cause she’s not really—she doesn’t really like taking a bath? So she obviously didn’t remind us, and we—my husband and I—are terrible parents because we just totally forgot! And I looked at her Friday after school and I was like—have you had a bath? Since last weekend? No! You haven’t. You are officially the stinky kid in class this week— [Biz laughs.] —and we’re terrible parents! So, uh, thanks! You guys are doing a great job. Thanks. Bye!
biz
“Where’s Kevin?! We’ve left Kevin at home!” [Both laugh.] This is a Home Alone! Except when it comes to a bath. I think this is a crazy—you’ve done something amazing. This is—amazing!
theresa
Yeah.
biz
Yeah! You… didn’t bathe a child. You have—let your child live out a fantasy that many children have. [Theresa laughs.] So—is it a—is it a fail? This is impressive!
theresa
Yeah!
biz
Yeah! Yeah! This is… it’s your fault. For having kids.
theresa
Mm-hm.
biz
In your house. And trying to get anything done. [Theresa laughs.] And… trying to be in charge and responsible of allll the needs that need to be met of your family.
theresa
I see it as sort of a gift.
biz
Ohhhh!
theresa
Like—your brain just did this for you. [Biz laughs.] Your brain realized—eh, this is not gonna be the end of the world? But you didn’t have to—the gift is you didn’t have to actually… make that decision? Or… go to the trouble of doing a bath. When you were exhausted and busy. So—
biz
Thank you, brain!
theresa
Yeah! Thanks, brain! [Biz laughs.]
music
“Mom Song” by Adira Amram. Mellow piano music with lyrics. You are the greatest mom I’ve ever known I love you, I love you When I have a problem, I call you on the phone I love you, I love you [Music fades out]
music
Mellow jazz piano music plays in background.
biz
One Bad Mother is supported in part by Care.com.
theresa
Care.com offers a platform for all kinds of family care services. From child and senior care to pet and house care. Biz and I both have premium memberships with Care.com. It’s the largest network of local caregivers. And it’s dedicated to making it easy to find, manage, and pay for care. They offer reviews and background checks to help guide families through the hiring process.
biz
Hey, Theresa! Let’s call someone today! [Short clip of upbeat guitar music with choral voices plays.] Theresa! This week we are calling Lauren Schneider, who is a nationally-recognized authority on children’s grief and is the author of Children Grieve, Too: A Handbook for Parents of Grieving Children. She is the clinical director of child and adolescent programs for Our House Grief Support Center. Welcome, Lauren!
lauren schneider
Thank you for having me!
biz
Oh, we’re so glad—I mean, it’s—this is always like a weird one to be, like, oh, we’re so glad to have you here to talk about [though laughter] something that’s really hard to talk about! But before we get into that, we’d like to ask you who lives in your house?
lauren
I live with just one other person—with my husband, Owen Hussney.
biz
Very nice. And—I—I wanna—I guess… I guess I wanna set up our talk today with, uh, something that we’ve experienced, uh, doing this show for a number of years. We have a hotline— [Laughs.] That listeners can call into and they can share, like… genius moments or failures as parents that are—that we just support them through and—and help everybody laugh at. But we also have a thing where people can leave rants. Where they’re just having a breakdown. Hard day. And the pattern that I have seen emerge over the years is when someone calls in with a rant— [Laughs.] They’ll start with, everything’s very stressful right now. Something about work. Something about… y’know, kids, family, travel, a wedding—and then—definitely burying the lede—they’ll say “and my father just died.” [Laughs.] And you’re like, whoa! Oh, whoa, whoa! That’s like, the—that should’ve been, like, first!
theresa
Yeah.
biz
Right? And—it’s—
lauren
Yeah.
biz
It’s led us to talk a little bit about… as parents… as people with kids in our—our house… when we experience grief—the loss of our—one of our own parents or a loved one—I feel like there’s this, like, image of… I’m gonna be strong for my children.
lauren
Mm-hm.
biz
And I’m gonna—y’know. Only—I don’t want to let them see me crying or upset. And—and we—we basically wind up… maybe even ignoring our own need to grieve. And I—I wanna start there. And… ask—is that normal? [Laughs.] And—and how do we—
lauren
I—I think that that’s normal to want to do that? But it’s a very hard thing to actually do that.
biz
I agree!
lauren
So— [Biz laughs.] Yeah. So what happens is—y’know—the grown-up—whoever they are—the caregiver for the child in the house—is trying really hard to… y’know, put up a brave front and be there for the child. And… hide their grief. But the children are more perceptive and they notice the cracks. Like, really early on. And… it’s also confusing for the children. Because the children are feeling their own sadness and they’re looking at these grownups who are putting on this false front, and it sends very mixed messages to the child. When the façade does start to crumble, the children see their parents as very fragile and feel the need to take care of their parent or guardian.
biz
Mm.
lauren
And that sets up this dynamic that… then continues throughout—sometimes—the entire first year of that mourning process.
biz
How would—how should we handle that situation differently? As the parent? Is it beneficial to just… let it all out? Incl—I mean, how—
lauren
Well, you wanna think of yourself as a role model?
biz
Mm.
lauren
Because… children look to their grown-ups for modeling how to act in new situations. So—say the first family member comes along who dies. Let’s say it’s a grand—grandma or great-grandparent. They are looking—they need to—information for how to be present in this new situation. And it is a wonderful opportunity for adults to role model for their child that it’s okay to… show your tears. And it’s also okay to tell stories of what you’ve loved about the person who died. To—to laugh about the funny moments you shared. And that those things are all compatible with each other. That sometimes you’re sad and other times you remember happy time. And—and you—you can laugh and that’s all part of the grieving process. That it—it’s—and it’s—and is normal.
biz
When we experience… a loss. There is usually a time period where we have a lot of people helping us. Right after the loss. And then… everyone goes back to their lives. But—but we’re— [Laughs.] Hello! We are still there in a state of grief. What are some ways that people can get support when they’re grieving outside of family and friends? And I—I think—again… as—people with kids in our house… or other adults in our house, if we’re maybe caregiving for our own parents—time is a real factor there. So—so—
lauren
That’s true.
biz
Yeah!
lauren
That gets in the way, um, sometimes of adults seeking out help for themselves. Because—and this is something that I see all the time at our house is—the adult will call first for support for their child. Because the adult cannot tolerate—number one—seeing their child in pain; and number two, can’t handle the thought that this death is gonna change their child. Um, and have a negative impact on their child’s development. Neither of which is really necessarily true. [Biz laughs.] So they call and they’re like—I need to get my child in a group or something like that. When in actuality, the child is not ready to be in a group. Um, the child probably is coping fine in the initial month or two after the death. ‘Cause they cope very differently. It’s the adult that needs support. They need somebody to go to… um—whether it’s to support their own grieving process or just to help them brainstorm how to be there for their child. You know. How to talk to their child. How to explain, y’know, what’s happening in the family.
biz
Who would I—I mean, like—I think, again, something that we’ve talked about a lot is when we need help ourselves—whether it be a doctor’s appointment or fixing the car or therapy or help—that can easily fall to the bottom of the list because it just—it’s too much! It’s—I don’t have time for that! This is really hard! Or I wouldn’t even know where to begin. So especially—I feel like—in this situation—in trying to find support for grief—where would I even begin?
lauren
Well— [Biz laughs.] Um—y’know, depending on where you live in the United States, there are grief support centers like Our House. Um, that offer programming for adults and for children. That are support groups. Um, not necessarily therapy. And that may be the thing that’s missing most for people is—somebody their own age who’s going through the same thing, that knows what it feels like, um, that they can share it with. ‘Cause if you’re in that parenting demographic? Y’know, which is like 25 to 49, let’s say? You probably don’t have a friend who’s had a spouse or partner who died. Or a child that died. And so you really need to have somebody your own age who understands that… y’know, that life cycle occurrence that you can share it with. And—now—your reactions to that—your grief response? Is a natural response. Not a mental illness. So most of the grief support centers are just support centers with volunteers leading support groups, not mental health centers. Um, on the other hand—some people don’t wanna be in a group. They want one-on-one support. And for them, they are going to want to find a therapist that they can go to if their support system—their natural support system, meaning their friends and family—are not providing them the kind of support they need. Um, my caveat for that is that most mental health clinicians—now this means psychologists, social workers, and marriage and family therapists—do not know anything about how to do grief counseling or grief therapy. They don’t know how to do it. And… so… it is—it really behooves the… griever to get a referral to somebody who’s experienced and has training in doing grief therapy. So the way you can find those people would be to call a hospice program? The hospital social worker can offer referrals hopefully. Um, in your area. Sometimes a clergy person has a list of referrals for grief therapists. You know. Or if you’re lucky enough to be in a community with a grief support center—like at Our House, we have a list of people we have vetted that we know have been through our training and are—are qualified grief therapists.
biz
Can you talk a little bit about why people might avoid grief counseling?
lauren
Well… they’re afraid of the pain. Afraid of the—let it out, that they’ll start crying and they’ll never stop crying. That it’ll hurt too much. That they won’t be able to handle the pain. So they choose to bury it instead, to numb it, y’know, with—with substances or work. But you can’t do that. You can’t—you can’t avoid the grief forever. And it—it is going to have to be acknowledged at some point.
biz
Can you talk about the stages of grief? I recently—we had someone from Our House come and talk to our school for a parent meeting. And she mentioned that—basically what we thought were the stages of grief [though laughter] is not—may not be what we think it is! Can you talk about the stages of grief?
lauren
Elisabeth Kübler-Ross’s stages of—five stages of death and dying… were—initially written to describe what—what human beings experience when they find out that they’re dying. ‘Cause she was working with patients in a hospital. She and David Kessler later applied their stage model to what grievers experience when they’ve had, um, experienced the death of someone close. And then they wrote about that in a—in a second book called On Grief and Grieving. So their original five stages—denial, anger, bargaining, blame, and acceptance—were then applied to the grief process as well. So… the problem with their model, according to most grief centers, is that it makes people think that everybody grieves the same way.
biz
[Through laughter] Oh!
lauren
And it—and—it puts people into boxes. And—and sets up unreal expectations. Like—and it makes people think that you do it in a linear fashion and in order and—when you’re done with one stage, you never go into that stage again. And that’s not—that’s not what Elizabeth intended or David. They didn’t intend it to be interpreted that way? But that’s how it has been interpreted.
biz
Uh—
lauren
That’s not what grief looks like! Grief is not done in a linear fashion. You can be angry but you’ll be angry again— [Biz laughs.] —at a later date! You can get retriggered as you get older or—let’s say you get married and then when you become a parent you re-grieve the death of your own parent that happened much earlier because they’re not there to see you have a child. So you maybe go through the anger phase again. You know. Or the blame phase again. Um, you’re gonna re-grieve for the rest of your life, basically. And there is no completion after that fifth stage. You’re not done grieving when you’re at—when you’ve done the fifth stage. Because grief is a lifelong process.
biz
Aw, darn! I was hoping I could just tie that up with a bow! [Biz and Theresa laugh.]
crosstalk
Lauren: Yeah. Yeah. Sorry! Biz: All done! Nooo! [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.]
biz
I think, though, that that’s really… great to hear, actually? Because I think… we can definitely get it in our minds that eventually it will just be over? If we do this process? Whatever process—one day—but to hear… no, grief—grief is with you forever and it’s gonna appear in different forms and different—yo’ure gonna—y’know, go up and down and back and forth with it. Actually… helps because the expectation is now gone. Like— [Laughs.] Of—of—
crosstalk
Biz: Winning at grief. Lauren: Right. Well you can be kinder to yourself!
biz
Yeah! Speaking of kindness— [Laughs.] How do we— [Lauren laughs.] —as friends—how can we be supportive of a friend who’s grieving? What are—what are things that we can say that’s helpful or do that’s helpful, and what should we just definitely avoid doing? [Biz and Theresa laugh.]
lauren
Uh, one thing you can’t expect a griever to do is tell you what they need.
biz
Mm.
lauren
What kinda—y’know, so you don’t call them up and just say, “What can I do to help?” Because they’re not gonna be able to answer that. But what you can offer concrete things, like, hi! I’m going to the market today! Um… can I pick up some, y’know, something for you for dinner? Or do you need, y’know, let’s—let’s put together a marketing list. Tell me what I can pick up for you. Um, or I’m—I’m gonna be doing my laundry today. Um, I can stop by and pick up, y’know, your laundry and do it at the same time! Y’know, concrete things. Can I get your—do the carpool this week? Instead of you doing it. You know. So the more concrete things you can do, the better. You know, on the other hand—um—can I take you out tonight, um, y’know— [Biz laughs.] —and just sit—be with you. Y’know, just sit with you. And if you feel like talking, I’ll listen. If you don’t feel like talking, we can just hang out. You know. And just—just be there. If they want to cry. You know, just sit with them. You can’t be expected to say anything to fix it for them. ‘Cause that—nobody can fix it for them. But just to be there, to listen, is like the greatest gift.
biz
And to—my guess is—stay there. I feel like it kind of goes—I always feel like there’s a play—there will be a time where I’m like—is there—did my—do I—should I still be? Is it—am I now imposing? Is it— [though laughter] do you want? You know? Like—
crosstalk
Biz: We’ve joked about this— Lauren: Yeah. Yeah, not run away.
biz
Yeah! Not run away, I think, it’s very—we’ve talked about this with—when you have—when there’s a brand-new baby in your house—however that brand-new baby got there, people are like, here! Let’s help! Here’s some food! And then they’re gone but you’re still like—wait. I—there’s all—possibly the rest of my life is with this child [though laughter] and I still need help!
lauren
Yeah.
biz
So I think—
lauren
Yeah.
biz
Yeah! Just remembering… again—remembering that grief is forever on some level. Y’know. We as friends can… be also there forever.
crosstalk
Biz: On some level. Lauren: Right! Like remembering—
lauren
—the person who died’s birthday. Remembering the date of the death. Um… y’know showing up on those days. Calling. Like, I know, like, call the day before—I know tomorrow would’ve been your mom’s birthday. Just wanted to check in with you and see how you’re doing today. Y’know. Do you have any plans for, uh, what you’re gonna do tomorrow for her birthday?
biz
Mm.
lauren
You know, so remembering important days. Or at the holidays, y’know, a lot of grievers, um, experience loneliness at holidays! You know they stop getting invited to things. Um… y’know. And—‘cause they’re not as fun! [Biz laughs.] As other—
crosstalk
Lauren: —others, y’know. And— Biz: Right. Yeah. No. Yeah. [Slurs.]
biz
No, I get it. I mean, that or you’re worried that, like…
theresa
Like, “they’re not up to it!”
biz
“They’re not up to it!” Or, y’know—
lauren
Right!
biz
Maybe they lost, y’know… a partner or something and it’s like—well if we invite them, that’s gonna be weird ‘cause we’re all standing around with partners. RIght? Like— [Laughs.] Like, I think there’s a—
lauren
You know, and you mean well! You mean well. But it—it ends up feel—being very isolating for the griever ‘cause they’re no longer part of that, y’know, that social group. And… so then they have to find, y’know, a new social group.
biz
Mm. Lauren? I just wanna say thank you so much for joining us. This was—
lauren
You’re welcome!
biz
Incredibly helpful and insightful and such a—a good… not even a reminder. For—for those of us who didn’t know how to help in the first place or what to expect in the first place. This was really good information and we really appreciate it and appreciate the work you do with Our House, the grief support center here in Pasadena, and—y’know—I—I thank you. So much. And we’ll make sure—
crosstalk
Biz: —we link people up— Lauren: Thanks for having me!
biz
Yeah! To your book as well as other resources. Have a wonderful day and thank you for the work you do!
lauren
Oh, you’re welcome. And thank you for—for calling. Bye-bye.
biz
Absolutely! Bye-bye!
music
“Telephone,” by “Awesome.” Down-tempo guitar and falsetto singing. Brainwaves send a message: Pick up the phone (When you, I call) Arm is moving now, no longer stone (When you, I call) Hand reaches out with a will of its own (When you, I call) [Music fades out.]
promo
Music: Upbeat, simple electronic music. Janet Varney: Hey! I'm Janet Varney, and like many of you—some more recent than others—I used to be a teenager. In fact, just about all of my friends were, too! Including wonderful women like Alison Brie. [Into interview.] Alison Brie: I'm dead center on the balance beam. And this is like, a big gym. All the kids' parents are there watching. I have to stop, like, you know when you have to pee so bad and you can't even move? [Janet makes a sympathetic sound.] And then I just go. I just pee right in the middle of the high balance beam. [Laughing] And— Janet: Ohhh nooo! [Laughs.] [Out of interview.] Janet: So join me every week on the JV Club podcast where I speak with complicated, funny, messy humans as we reminisce about our adolescences and how they led us to becoming who we are. Find it every Thursday on Maximum Fun. [Music fades.]
promo
Music: Fun, jaunty, upbeat music. Renee Colvert: Hi! I'm Renee Colvert. Alexis Preston: I'm Alexis Preston! Renee: And we're the hosts of the smash hit podcast Can I Pet Your Dog? Now, Alexis. Alexis: Yes. Renee: We got big news. Alexis: Uh-oh! Renee: Since last we did a promo, our dogs have become famous. Alexis: World-famous! Renee: World—like, stars on the Hollywood Walk of Fame! Second big news. Alexis: Mm-hm? Renee: The reviews are in. Alexis: Mm-hm? Renee: Take yourself to Apple Podcasts, you know what you're gonna hear? We're happy! Alexis: It's true! Renee: We're a delight! A great distraction from the world! Alexis: I like that part a lot. Renee: So if that's what you guys are looking for... Alexis: Mm-hm. Renee: You gotta check out our show! But what else can they expect? Alexis: We've got dog tech, dog news, celebrities with their dogs. All dog things! Renee: All the dog things. So if that interests you, well, get yourself on over to Maximum Fun every Tuesday! [Music ends.]
biz
That… helped.
theresa
Yeah!
biz
That helped.
theresa
It does help.
biz
Uh, y’know. It’s… hard. [Laughs.]
theresa
Mm-hm.
biz
Yeah. There are people in your house. And… that doesn’t prevent us from experiencing really difficult loss in our life.
theresa
Yep.
biz
And… I really appreciated all the insight that she gave us and… we will… link up in the show notes to her—to her book, called Children Grieve, Too: A Handbook for Parents of Grieving Children as well as some resources for finding grief support for yourself, as an adult. Speaking of support! Let’s listen to a mom have a breakdown!
caller
[Answering machine beeps.] This is not exactly a rant, but I just need to be reminded that I’m doing a good job. Um, yesterday my four-year-old was talking to me and she said something about seeing a—a dead bug at daycare. Um, and… I don’t remember exactly what she said next? But I know that my follow-up to what she said was, that, oh, y’know, that’s normal. Actually, you know, anything that’s alive will die at some point! To which she said—but people don’t die, right? And I had to tell her that, yes, people do die! She just kinda sat there, taking that in for a second, and then asked about—something about when that happens. Y’know. I told her that usually happens when people are very old. And she kinda wanted more clarification on that. [Biz laughs.] I was able to tell her, like, about a relative that was 90 or 91. Tell her that, um, we actually knew someone that lived to be 105 and I left it at that! And it’s just—y’know. It’s kinda hard! Like, you know you’re going to have to teach your kid about this sort of thing? But like… she woke up yesterday morning not knowing that people die. And then I had to tell her that. Um… which—I guess it’s good that she’s finding that out in the abstract first and not because I’m telling her someone’s dead! [Biz laughs.] But yeah. It’s just a hard thing. To, like, see them learning stuff like that. and I know there’ll be follow-up questions ‘cause I don’t even know what she thinks death means ‘cause all she’s seen of it is bugs. Laying on the ground or whatever. But… yeah. Just one of those parenting things that kinda sucks. Anyways. Thanks! You’re doing a good job and I think I did a pretty good job on that. Bye.
biz
Yes you did!
theresa
Yeah!
biz
You did a great job!
theresa
Yeah.
biz
You answered your child’s question? And you answered it honestly? Within parameters that work for a four-year-old? Right? Like… I think you did great and you are correct! I mean, we just spent—
theresa
Yeah!
biz
Half the show talking to a grief expert about how hard it is to talk to our kids about this stuff! It’s… how hard it is for ourselves to accept it! And that, y’know, the more… our kids know, the—we are equipping them to be able to handle things. Better. And healthier. In the future. ‘K? So… you are doing a good job! It is hard to talk about it! And you always wanna be like, the stork comes and takes—takes you? I don’t know. There was a stork involved! And a bee! I think, with death. I don’t know.
theresa
Yeah. I feel like it’s almost like one of those things, like… sex. And gender. And…
biz
Drugs and alcohol—just any—
theresa
And diff—and differences and—like… it’s one of those things that like is sometimes a taboo.
biz
Yep.
theresa
To talk about. And is sometimes uncomfortable to talk about. But for that reason, if we—we—we sort of tend to either not talk about it or talk about it like, once in a blue moon when it comes up. [Biz laughs.] And then—it is really awkward! But like if we talk about it all the time… it’s less awkward? Right? Like, I feel like… it’s easier when we kind of get the ball rolling with that. ‘Cause I’m just thinking about your daughter—like, how you said she woke up this morning not knowing that people die, but it’s like—I could also see her waking up six months from now not knowing that people die. [Biz laughs.] Just knowing how kids are? You know what I mean?
crosstalk
Biz: Yeah, it’s like your sister and the where babies came from! Right! Like—we’ve talked about it! Theresa: Like—it’s my sister and where babies come from. Yeah. It’s like—yeah!
theresa
It’s like, you need to talk about it like a lot!
biz
Yeah. Yeah. I—that’s a really good point.
theresa
And you’re—I also liked your point of like what death means. ‘Cause I think a lot of times, I’m talking about death with my kids and thinking like, what a great job I’m doing— [Biz laughs.] —making them aware that death happens. But then I—sometimes I’ll stop and think, like, yeah! But what do they actually think that means? Like, we’ve never—there isn’t—like, I—we assume that they have context for a lot of things that they do not have context for?
biz
No.
theresa
Like—
crosstalk
Biz: No. Yeah! To the body farm, guys! [Laughs.] Theresa: Do they think—yeah! [Laughs.]
biz
Let’s show you—show you death.
theresa
Death means getting squished, right?
biz
Yeah! It just means… [Theresa laughs.] Yeah! Getting squooshed. Uh, getting too much salt on you?
theresa
Yeah. [Laughs.]
biz
That’ll—that’ll do it. Yeah, no! It’s good. And I just wanna say—in six months, your daughter also may wake up and be like—I am so glad I know about death.
theresa
Totally. Yeah.
biz
And then she will go to school and educate— [Theresa laughs.] —all her friends. You are doing a really good job!
theresa
Yeah, you are!
biz
You really are!
theresa
You are.
biz
Good job! Yeah! Theresa, what did we learn today? We learned we can be easily manipulated by our children when they offer us things we want. [Theresa laughs.] Be that donuts, or a dollar! I’ll give you a dollar! I’ll never pass up a dollar. Alright, Ellis! Drive the car! I’ve got a dollar! [Both laugh.] I think we learned that, like, all of parenting—there’s a lotta grey. And there’s a lot of things that, like, feel like the right choice at the right time.
theresa
Mm-hm.
biz
That… isn’t the right choice at a different time. And while that’s perfectly logical to us, our children may not see the logic in it at all. Not because they’re… jerks! [Laughs.] But because they don’t’ have the context yet and oh! Somebody just remind me—they’re—they’re children!
theresa
Yep.
biz
Ahhhh!
theresa
They’re little.
biz
They little! They are little. Even when Katy Belle’s 43, she’ll be little. [Theresa laughs.] Little! Katy Belle, it’s time to tell you about death, drugs, sex, and… gender identities. Sit down! [Laughs.] Oh, and your period. [Theresa laughs.] So—those are reasonable lessons. And if you don’t like those lessons? Have a donut. [Both laugh.] Watch a little extra TV. You’ll be okay. Give yourself something nice. You deserve it. We also learned—once again!—difficult conversations are still important. And even more important—taking care of ourselves is important. Finding support for ourselves… after a loss… is incredibly important to us and to our families. So… take care of yourself! That is a thing that we—it’s—whoa! It’s so easy to push off! Whether it be depression or whether it just be needing help with blagch—anything! Or, uh, grief! It is okay to ask for help. And it is okay to give yourself the time… for that help. And as friends of people who are grieving, what a—I thought she gave us great ideas for how to help. Y’know, which could include—supporting somebody and finding that grief support and helping watch their kids or just be there so that they can go! Right? Like—I don’t know! Just… all boils down to being nice to each other? [Laughs.] Trying to remember we don’t know what the other person is going through. And to just try to listen and be kind. Everybody? We know that you’re out there trying to be nice. [Laughs.] You are doing… a really good job. This show is one of many that remind us—there is a lot going on. In our lives. Making it hard to do anything! And you’re doing it. You are getting up. You are doing it. You are going to bed. And you are doing it again the next day. And you are doing a very good job. Theresa? You are doing a good job.
theresa
Thank you, Biz. So are you.
biz
Thank you. And we will talk to you guys next week!
crosstalk
Biz and Theresa: Byeeee!
music
“Mama Blues” by Cornbread Ted and the Butterbeans. Strumming acoustic guitar with harmonica and lyrics. I got the lowdown momma blues Got the the lowdown momma blues Gots the lowdown momma blues The lowdown momma blues Gots the lowdown momma blues Got the lowdown momma blues You know that’s right [Music fades somewhat, plays in background of dialogue.]
biz
We’d like to thank MaxFun; our producer, Hannah Smith; our husbands, Stefan Lawrence and Jesse Thorn; our perfect children, who provide us with inspiration to say all these horrible things; and of course, you, our listeners. To find out more about the songs you heard on today’s podcast and more about the show, please go to MaximumFun.org/onebadmother. For information about live shows, our book and press, please check out OneBadMotherPodcast.com.
theresa
One Bad Mother is a member of the Maximum Fun family of podcasts. To support the show go to MaximumFun.org/donate. [Music continues for a while before fading out.]
speaker 2
Comedy and culture.
speaker 3
Artist owned—
speaker 4
—Audience supported.
About the show
One Bad Mother is a comedy podcast hosted by Biz Ellis about motherhood and how unnatural it sometimes is. We aren’t all magical vessels!
Join us every week as we deal with the thrills and embarrassments of motherhood and strive for less judging and more laughing.
Call in your geniuses and fails: 206-350-9485. For booking and guest ideas, please email onebadmother@maximumfun.org. To keep up with One Bad Mother on social media, follow @onebadmothers on Twitter and Instagram.
Get in touch with the show
onebadmother@maximumfun.org
@OneBadMothers
@onebadmothers
How to listen
Stream or download episodes directly from our website, or listen via your favorite podcatcher!
