Transcript
biz ellis
This is Biz. I’m a part-time working mom with two full-blown kids.
theresa thorn
And I’m Theresa. I have a family business, two young kids, and a toddler.
biz
This is a show about life after giving life. Don’t listen with your kids, ‘cause there will be swears. This… is One Bad Mother.
music
“Summoning the Rawk” by Kevin MacLeod. Driving electric guitar and heavy drums. [Continues through dialogue.]
biz
This week on One Bad Mother: Corrections! Plus, Biz changed parenting styles; Theresa is not in mint condition; and we talk to Catherine D’Ignazio and Jenn Roberts about the continuing work of making the breast pump not suck.
crosstalk
Biz and Theresa: [Cheering] Wooooaaaaa! Biz: Out of time. Theresa: That was—that was—barely a “woo” from you. Biz: That was—that—I—you— Theresa: I gave it 65%, at least.
biz
I was a strong 30.
theresa
Yeah. [Laughs.]
biz
[Laughs.] Theresa? How are you? [Biz affirms Theresa throughout.]
theresa
I am not great. Yeah. I… [Biz laughs.] I think, like, I do that thing where I overdo it because I have a good day and I think I can do more than I should actually do? So if you guys remember, last week I was fresh off of a trip that I took with Oscar. Then this past weekend was Oscar’s sixth birthday. I really love him and I feel bad because I threw him a birthday party and it was a nice birthday party, and it was so…exhausting for me. That I still don’t feel recovered from it. And that makes me feel bad. Because I feel like I should be able to do that once in a while and be okay. Everything was fine, y’know. We did it. He was happy. But I’m deeply depleted from that. Like, still! So that sucks. And then I’m just…I have a lot this week. Like, we have—you guys know that Curtis has been in speech therapy and because he’s approaching his third birthday this is a time where, like, his services get switched from, like, regional center to school district and so they’re doing new assessment for him? I have two this week for him. It just happens to be the same week that I’m getting assessment results back for Oscar—this week on Wednesday—and then the sa—for some reason this week, I also have an IEP—Grace’s annual IEP meeting.
biz
Oh my Lord. [Biz affirms Theresa throughout.]
theresa
And it’s Oscar’s, like, first teacher conference on Friday ‘cause it’s conference time. So I don’t know how—I think it’s because—just the timing of a lot of things, but also—and just fall is like this? But also Jesse is going on tour the week after and so we kind of had to do stuff before he leaves. And I really just real—like, I knew all of these things were coming up, but I just realized today—oh! All of those things are this week. Like, I have two things a day, every day this week, and they’re all emotional for me? Like, I’m not all better—I’m not, like, fully, like, oh this is fine, this is my life. Like, I’m still processing a lot of these things about my kids? And…it’ll be okay, but I…don’t feel—like, I don’t feel good today. Do you know what I mean? ‘Cause I’m, like, coming off the birthday thing and then I just have all this stuff going on this week and I feel—I don’t feel…strong. [Laughs.] You know? Like I don’t feel resilient today. I feel, like, kind of beaten down. Y’know what I mean? Like, that’s really what is getting to me.
biz
So let me ask you this. What are you gonna be for Halloween? [Laughs raucously.] [Theresa laughs.] I was like, mm, how about witch-cowboy? [Laughs.]
theresa
‘Cause—‘cause we can’t just be a witch anymore. Right? [Theresa affirms Biz throughout.]
biz
Well….we’ve really been a mom-witch a lot. And we’ve—I’ve been a mom-cowboy a lot.
theresa
Did you do mom-cowboy?
biz
I’ve been a mom-cowboy.
crosstalk
Theresa: Yeah, because that’s like one of the other really easy ones. Yeah. Yeah. Biz: So easy. ‘Cause everybody’s got a cowboy hat laying around somewhere.
biz
Yeah. And mom-witch. Man. I’m…sorry.
theresa
Yeah. Thanks. Yeah.
biz
Yeah. Let’s just cry through the episode.
crosstalk
Theresa: Okay. Biz: Mkay.
theresa
How are you? [Theresa affirms Biz throughout.]
biz
I’m…super tired as well. But what I—[laughs.] What I just wanted to share was I had this moment this morning of, like, words coming out of my mouth. And I thought, boy! Those aren’t the same words I used to use. Like, so it’s—it’s kind of a cool morning in Southern California today. And by “cool” I mean, y’know, in the, like, upper 50s and the kids—y’know. This is freezing for us. Right? For most of Katy Belle’s young life, I would be like, you need to go put pants on. You need to put a jacket on. You need to dress appropriately. It—she never wore what was appropriate for the weather. If it was 100 degrees, she’d be like in a blazer. If it’s 50 degrees, she’s in shorts and a t-shirt. It just never was correct. And I would spend all my morning—you need to go back and get the jacket. Right? This morning she walks out and it’s—she’s in shorts and like a sweater and a t-shirt. And…y’know, I hadn’t made any—I mean, outside of saying, “Yeah, it’s gonna be cold this morning,” I didn’t say much. But she steps out and she says, “It’s so cold.” And while I would have, in the past, said “Go back in and get your jacket,” I instead said, “You’re gonna be fine. Go get in the car.” [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.]
theresa
Yeah. It’s time to go. [Theresa affirms Biz throughout.]
biz
Yeah! Like my—my, like, yeah! Like, my care about their, like, physical well-being? Is like no longer there, really? I mean it is, but I know it’s gonna be fine in like 15 minutes when they get to school? And also, just get in the damn car! Right? No one—once you cross the threshold, you’re not allowed to go back in. You’re outside now! And whatever you’ve got with you is what you’ve got for the day. Get in the car! Y’know. Like, I just realized I am beyond correcting my children as to what they should or should not be wearing for the right weather? Which I think ties in nicely to our topic today, which is: correcting!
music
Banjo strums; cheerful banjo music continues through dialogue.
theresa
Please—take a moment to remember: If you’re friends of the hosts of One Bad Mother, you should assume that when we talk about other moms, we’re talking about you.
biz
If you are married to the host of One Bad Mother, we definitely are talking about you.
theresa
Nothing we say constitutes professional parenting advice.
biz
Biz and Theresa’s children are brilliant, lovely, and exceedingly extraordinary.
theresa
Nothing said on this podcast about them implies otherwise. [Banjo music fades out.] [Theresa affirms Biz throughout.]
biz
Theresa. Corrections. This idea for a topic came to me the other night. Ellis—for a very long time—his entire speaking life—has referred to Starbucks as “Starblocks.” And Stefan thinks this is adorable, and he’s second child. I don’t give two shits. He’ll figure it out one day. So we’ve never corrected him. And the other day, Stefan came in—he had just gotten through finishing up Ellis’s nighttime routine, bedtime routine, tucking him in, and he comes in and he says, “Well, it’s over. Ellis knows to call it ‘Starbucks’ now.” [Theresa sighs.] And I was like, I’m really sorry, Stefan. ‘Cause it—he loved this. And I thought, huh. See? The theory that it’s just gonna sort itself out—and it’s not like Ellis was, like—“What do you mean it’s—[breaks off, laughing.]—‘Starbucks’? I’ve always called it ‘Starblocks’! How could you ruin my life like this?!” He just changed the way he said it. That’s all.
crosstalk
Biz: That’s all this was. Theresa: He just picked up on it at some point. And got it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Biz: He just—yeah. Eventually came out the right way.
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] And it made me start thinking about, like, the times when I choose to correct and the times when I choose not to correct. And…really, how much it matters or how much time I should be staying up until two in the morning concerned about it. So that’s where I am for this soup of a topic. I guess I’ll just start with the simple one. The cute one. Correcting your kids when they mispronounce stuff or think something is true that is not. Because I want to say that Katy Belle was really adamant of correcting Ellis. And this was when she was, like, seven and eight. She could not, like, let it go. Every time he’d say—“It’s Starbucks”—and he’d be like, “What?” Y’know, like, I just—and she would be getting frustrated and I would have to step in and say, “Katy Belle, you need to understand. That’s just not where his brain is working right now?” And thanks to therapy, I learned that developmentally, she was at a place where being correct was very important. ‘Cause for her, she had this feeling that he was gonna go out and say Starblocks and it was going to be embarrassing and ruin his life and, like…maybe we were lying to him. I don’t know. So yeah! What are—where are you on the corrections? [Biz affirms Theresa throughout.]
theresa
Well, I’ll always remem—and Jesse and I will always talk about Oscar saying, instead of saying ‘octopus,’ for the longest time he says ‘octo-fluss.’
biz
Oooh! Octo-fluss! [Biz affirms Theresa throughout.]
theresa
And it was the best thing ever. So we treasured that for as long as it would last and then for a while it was octo-plus, which was also great. It was fantastic.
biz
I like octoplus.
theresa
Now he just says it pretty much correctly. And [through laughter]—
biz
What a jerk. [Laughs.]
theresa
And—and Gracie, she used to always say ‘corrector’ instead of ‘character.’ And that one…was also adorable until she, like, continued to say it for so long even though—even after she kind of knew? And it was—she was saying that pre-reading. So it was like, she…just said it that way. I don’t know why. And as she got older it was like, we had talked about it and she kind of like heard us and knew but that was just how she said it? And so after a while we were a little bit, like, should we…
biz
Step in? [Laughs.]
theresa
Should we like, really start working on this with her?
biz
Should we “character” her? [Laughs.]
theresa
[Laughs.] I mean, it was just a weird thing. But right now we are in that moment that you went through with Katy Belle and Ellis before, with Curtis and Oscar. So now it’s Curtis being two-and-a-half—and I’m constantly finding myself saying, “He’s two. Yeah. He’s doing his best. He’s learning to talk. Yeah, he can’t—he’s trying. That’s what it sounds like to him. I know it’s—I know it’s—” [Biz laughs.] Like, there’s all these things—I’m just like, and I try to say it—‘cause—I—I agree. Oscar’s trying to help. He’s—he’s like, no, that’s not—‘cause I—‘cause also, I think it’s not just him trying to help his sibling? I think it’s also…he just figured it out and so somebody else doing it quote-unquote “wrong” sort of challenges this new grasp on reality that he barely has? And he’s like, “No, I’m pretty sure—” like this, having learned it, that feels important. Now. That I—I figured this out. So therefore, like, don’t mess with what I think I now have a handle on. Right?
crosstalk
Theresa: ‘Cause that’s confusing. Yes. Exactly. Biz: Sky? Blue! Right. Right.
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] You know what I think it is about the kids no longer saying things like—[laughs]—"Starblocks” or “octoplus,” is that—is that it signifies, like, almost a rite of passage? Like, it signifies a leveling up. And, like, so when Stefan came in, it was like [glumly] “Oh. Starblocks is gone.” Right? It’s a little like—"House at Pooh Corner.” Right? Like—I feel— [Biz affirms Theresa throughout.]
theresa
It is! You don’t turn back. Like, you’re excited that they can do it, but there’s no—
crosstalk
Biz: There’s no going the other way. Theresa: —going the other direction. Yeah. [Theresa affirms Biz throughout.]
biz
And, like, even the thing about, like Katy Belle and Oscar wanting to correct their siblings—also was a sign of not going back. It’s also a leveling up. Of, like…I understand this is important to you to want to correct this ‘cause now your reality is different. Like, now you know. You took the red pill. [Theresa laughs.] You understand, right? Like that’s frustrating—and it’s frustrating for everybody! Which, I think, actually is kind of amazing ‘cause I think it sort of ties into this idea of…correcting how our kids correct?
theresa
Oh, yeah.
biz
Right? To—like, and I almost feel like—
theresa
There’s an art to it. [Theresa affirms Biz throughout.]
biz
There’s an art to it, but I also feel like I’m almost leaving something out about the Star—like, I feel like with Katy Belle, there was some stuff she said that was super cute and it was wrong. [Laughs.] Like, in what she called things. And they were fine. That we probably did more correcting with her? And…with Ellis, I think whether it was conscious or not? We let a lot more go? Because maybe we were feeling that, like…oh. Once that’s gone, once they’re saying it right, they’re older. They’re older! They’re—like, they’re older! They’re people! That’s what we want them to be? But like, there’s an art to how, I think, we correct, and I think there is an art to teaching them how to correct. [Theresa laughs.]
crosstalk
Theresa: Correcting how our kids correct is very… Yes. Biz: —kids correct! Very important. [Theresa affirms Biz throughout.]
biz
Sometimes I am very good at it? And sometimes I am the worst at it. Like…I will give—I am not leading well by example. The other area I wonder should I correct or not correct is memories. When my kids start spouting out memories of things that have happened that are not remotely true, okay, like, no, I didn’t say that. No, it wasn’t when you were four; it was when you were eight. No—right, like those kind of things? Sometimes I’m just like, “No, that’s wrong.” [Laughs at length.] And I’m like, oh. That’s not a good way to correct this. “Why are you telling your brother he’s wrong?” Right? Oh. Right? So…how do you correct correcting? [Laughs.] [Biz affirms Theresa throughout.]
theresa
Yeah. I—I mean, I definitely set a bad example for it sometimes ‘cause I’ll do the same thing. Like, for example, I will…if somebody’s correcting somebody rudely, I will then be rude. Sometimes. Like, I will be like—“E—e—excuse me! [Stuttering.]” [Biz laughs wildly.] Y’know, like it’s just like, I’m just really—‘cause I’m—I’m feeling defensive for the person who’s being corrected? Um… [Biz continues laughing.] And then other times, like, uh, because Gracie—she’s—she’s really starting to get a handle on the art of correcting, but— [Biz laughs.] —um, a lot of times she will correct me and my initial reaction is just to be like, [not in a grateful tone of voice] “Wow. Thanks.” Because it—to me, it feels like peripheral? Like, she’s kind of being, like, nitpicky about something that’s not actually relevant to what I’m doing? And I’m doing something for her? And so I’m like…wow. Cool. Thanks—thanks for pointing that out. [Biz laughs.] But then I’m like, oh. You meant no harm! Like, you’re just pointing out, like, what you know! Like, you’re just telling me what you know and so like then I’ll have to backtrack and I’ll say, like, actually—okay.
theresa
[Biz continues affirming Theresa throughout.] You’re right. Yes. Like, thank you for saying that. The reason that upset me—and I’ll have to, like, walk her through and like explain, like, this is how it kind of—‘cause it’s true. Like, even on Twitter as adults, there are—there are ways that we, like, on our show? Get corrected? And we’re like—y’know what? Wow. You’re right. Thank you for correcting us about that. Like, some kind of language that we used or some—some, like, whole concept that we missed. And like, that—it—somebody can correct us out there in the world in a really polite, but like, firm way that’s fair. And then there’s another way that we can be corrected where it does feel like we’re being picked on—
crosstalk
Theresa: —for no reason. [Theresa laughs.] Biz: Where—where they don’t identify us as people?
biz
It’s more like that thing did this wrong?
crosstalk
Biz: But—right—yeah. Theresa: Or it’s like, just still wanting to show, even as an adult—
theresa
—still wanting to show “I know this. And I know what’s right”? Where it’s a little bit like… [Theresa affirms Biz throughout.]
biz
Well, but it goes into, like…Katy Belle’s getting better at the correcting thing, too. It was a long road. But a lot of times it just boiled down to—I’m like, why do you feel you need to say that? Y’know? And for her it was—she needed to feel right. She—it felt like power? To be right. And being wrong was completely unacceptable. So sorry, Katy Belle. [Laughs.] That you have my genes all in you. But—I think there is also something annoying about being the parent who’s being corrected? And again—I get—they’re not doing it to be mean. But when all you’re doing is spending most of your time— [Theresa laughs.] —and energy and doing things for them, that is where—maybe I’m not good—I become the, like, y’know, sometimes my kids have been like, “This is my special way of doing it.” Right? And I’m like, that doesn’t matter. But I do the same thing! I’m like, well, this is how it’s happening because of my time schedule! Right? Because I’ve already been doing this. Right? And I’m like—okay.
crosstalk
Theresa: Like, explaining why you’re doing the incorrect thing? Yeah, it’s being defensive! Biz: And it’s defensive. It’s being defensive. Right.
theresa
And like, as you’re saying it you sometimes kind of know, like, how they’re really kind of right but I just…
biz
I’m too…tired.
theresa
I don’t—but—
crosstalk
Biz: Yeah. Yeah! I just feel—uh, yeah! Theresa: I’m in charge of the errors I’m making right now. [Theresa affirms Biz throughout.]
biz
Because I said so! And then you’re like, God. Why don’t I afford my children that same luxury of being able to do that, right? Like—woooo! No one likes to be corrected. At all! [Biz affirms Theresa throughout.]
theresa
Okay— [Biz laughs.] So this is actually really good, I think. Because I think we’re also getting back around to the fact that sometimes, it is okay to even, like, set an example of when our kids say something, thinking about, like, well that’s how they’re perceiving something! I might not see it that way but that really might be how they’re perceiving it! And so rather than actually making a correction, just saying, like, wow! I usually think of it as blah-blah-blah-blah-blah— [Biz makes impressed sound.] —but it seems like you see it another way! Or something like that! Like that’s—
biz
I’m so impressed that for as tired and broken as you are— [Theresa laughs.]
crosstalk
Theresa: I’m so tired and broken. Biz: You still have great language.
biz
Like, you still have a great way of putting that beautiful Theresa, like, spin and language on it? Where I’m just like, that’s so good! Because—yeah! That’s it. I mean—I—I think that kind of falls into the category of the, like, Starblocks correcting, where it’s like, y’know what? I know…my kid’s either going to figure out this is how they wanna approach—[laughs]—this thing they’re approaching? And I know it’s…just a different version of the Starblocks. Right? And…through experience and exposure, they’re going to decide if that’s still how it needs to be done. Right? Like…and my telling them is…y’know, not the best use of my energy when I could save that energy and respond better when they come at me! [Laughs.] Y’know?
theresa
Totally.
music
“Ones and Zeroes” by “Awesome.” Steady, driving electric guitar with drum and woodwinds. [Music fades out.]
theresa
[Chill acoustic guitar plays in background.] One Bad Mother is supported in part by NatGeo.
biz
Did you know that feral hounds blush when they’re excited? Or that the Norse goddess Freja drove a chariot pulled by two giant cats?! NatGeo Kids has the perfect books for your pet lover: National Geographic Dog Breed Guide and National Geographic Cat Breed Guide. Plus, it’s really fun looking at the dogs and cats!
crosstalk
Theresa: They’re so cute! Biz: They are so cute!
biz
Inside each book, you’ll find hundreds of info-packed breed profiles, tips for finding the perfect pet, tons of facts, and—of course—adorable animal photography! [Laughs.] Remember, adopt—don’t shop! But—do your research.
theresa
One Bad Mother listeners can get 15% off when they use the promo code “BadMother” on shop.nationalgeographic.com. That’s shop.nationalgeographic.com, promo code “BadMother.” One word. [Music fades out.]
theresa
Hey, you know what it’s time for! This week’s genius and fails! This is the part of the show where we share our genius moment of the week, as well as our failures, and feel better about ourselves by hearing yours. You can share some of your own by calling 206-350-9485. That’s 206-350-9485.
biz
Genius fail time, Theresa. Genius me!
biz
[Dramatic, swelling music in background.] Biz: Wow! Oh my God! Oh my God! I saw what you did! Oh my God! I’m paying attention! Wow! You, mom, are a genius. Oh my God, that’s fucking genius!
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] Okay. [Biz laughs.] Um, tell me if I’ve already said this, because I’ve been thinking about saying it for a while. Pretty sure I haven’t. But Gracie got her ears pierced a few months ago, and…I got inspired because I had been helping her with, like, the ear care. After she got her ears pierced. Which is like, y’know, a few times a day you have to, like, spray it with the saline wash and then there’s like a moisturizer put on and you just, like, wanna keep them clean. And you wanna keep good jewelry in them. At all times. And I kind of—it kind of occurred to me, like, my—my own ear piercings have been, like, kind of a wreck. [Biz laughs.] I’ve had them since I was nine years old. But I just have never taken really very good care of them, and like, I just put on, y’know, whatever crappy earrings on the day I decide to wear earrings. My ears get kind of irritated, and then I, like, clean ‘em, and then I don’t use them again, but then it like takes a while to kind of heal? I mean, they’re just, like, not in that good of shape! [Biz laughs.] But after—after, like, helping Grace with her ears, I was like, I could just have good jewelry in my ears all the time? And like, clean them regularly? And then I—my ears would be happy. [Biz laughs.] And I could wear earrings more and have it not hurt! So I’ve been caring for my own ear piercings the same way that I’ve been caring for Gracie’s ear piercings. And it’s been very nice.
biz
Good. Job.
theresa
Thank you.
biz
This past weekend was the school Halloween— [Theresa gasps.] —Haunted House—
theresa
You did it!
biz
—event.
theresa
You did it. [Theresa affirms Biz throughout.]
biz
In which I was not only a co-chair of the event, I was also—with Stefan—in charge of three separate areas of the Haunted House. Because we did not have enough people to be in charge of the different areas. For two days straight, I was at the school from, like, y’know, nine o’clock until 9:30, 10:30. Like, never leaving the school except to go and get, like, whatever was close by to eat. I never sat. I mean, we—I was like, my body, like, so many things. And my parents were in town. [Theresa laughs. Biz joins in.] I’ll just—put that. Here’s the thing. It was great. Everything looked and went great. And people had a great time. My father got to be in one of the scenes at the last minute and he was great. People kept coming by, being like, “He’s like in character!” And I feel like—I feel like—that—
crosstalk
Theresa: “I actually feel scared.” Biz: —was really—
biz
I know, it was so good!
crosstalk
Theresa: Like, thinking back to your stories from childhood. I feel like he would be really real. Biz: It was—yeah! Right? Like—Really good, right?
biz
So that was good. And it all just went off great.
theresa
Good job.
biz
And I did it.
crosstalk
Theresa: That’s amazing. Biz: I did it!
theresa
You’re amazing.
biz
Thank you!
theresa
Good job.
caller
[Answering machine beeps.] Hi, Biz and Theresa! I am calling with a genius! And it’s a genius that makes me happy and my relationship better! Um, so…my love language is gifts, which always kind of makes me feel slightly bad to say? But it is what it is. I also love to give them. It’s part of the fun. So my love language is gifts, which my lovely husband does try to show me love in that way. But it usually means he’s buying me, like, sweets and…things. That I can eat. And I’m trying to be healthier. And he also respects that I don’t like to have lots of stuff in my house. And so he was like, “Um, I need help. And ideas.” And so I said, should I put some little gift ideas on my Amazon Wishlist? And he’s like, “Yes! Please! Do that.” And so today, a gift appeared at my house! He’s doing a good job and I’m doing a good job. Thanks! Have a great day.
biz
This is so good.
theresa
It’s so good! [Theresa affirms Biz throughout.]
biz
I—we’ve talked about this in the past. This like, y’know, the people in your lives cannot read your thoughts to know what it is that you need. And you’ve been so good at identifying how…y’know, your partner can show you? That he appreciates you and loves you and those kind of—[breathes out]. That’s so good. And, he’s doing a good job of identify that—
theresa
I need help!
biz
—I need help, because, y’know—‘cause no one wants to get in the cycle where, like—if you’re not communicating and somebody’s thinking they’re giving you the stuff that you want, and it’s not making you feel good but you both don’t want to hurt each other’s feelings? The fact that you guys were, like, able to, like, both say what you needed? And now you get to just get the thing that you want? I just—I love this.
theresa
And feel loved at the same time.
biz
And feel—and your partner can feel love, that he’s like doing a good job. I just think…you are doing…such a good job.
theresa
Yes. You are.
biz
Failures.
clip
[Dramatic orchestral music plays in the background.] Theresa: [In a voice akin to the Wicked Witch of the West] Fail. Fail. Fail. FAIL! [Timpani with foot pedal engaged for humorous effect.] Biz: [Calmly] You suck!
biz
Fail me, Theresa. [Biz affirms Theresa throughout.]
theresa
[Laughs.] Um, okay. So—[breaks off, laughing.] We’ve been having this—Grace has been doing great at school this year, but one problem that has been ongoing is, like, she keeps taking her shoes off at school. Like— [Biz laughs.] —in—in class, and like, at different times throughout the day. And her teacher’s been great about it and like trying to come up with like deals to make with her? Like, well, if you just keep your shoes on for PE and you have your socks on in class—like, he’s been, like, really working with her. And I’m like, thinking to myself, like, does she need different shoes? Like, does she need, like, more comfort—like, I go out of my way to have, like, good, supportive shoes for her! Well, I went—her shoes were just, like, getting pretty trashed? And so I was like, it’s probably time to buy new shoes. Let’s see, y’know, if we should get a bigger size or whatever. Oh! Her shoes that she’s been wearing to school that keep coming off at school? They are a size-and-a-half too small! For her. [Laughs.]
biz
Oooooh!
theresa
So…do you think that might’ve had something to do with why she kept taking them off?
crosstalk
Theresa: All day long? It could have! Maybe. Who knows. We’ll never know. Biz: Y’know what, it might. It might. It could have. I dunno. I don’t pay attention to my children’s feet either.
biz
So…yeah. That’s…wow.
crosstalk
Theresa: They were way—way too small. Yeah. Biz: Wow—that’s—I mean, that’s way too small.
biz
I—I don’t wanna say anything to make you feel like, weird, but I think those were too small?
theresa
Oh, you do?
biz
I do!
theresa
Do you think they might’ve been?
biz
I—they might have been.
crosstalk
Theresa: I mean, we’ll never really know for sure. Biz: Uh-uh.
biz
You know what? We should go on a message board—[laughs]—and find out. [Theresa laughs.] Get some opinions. Source—source some opinions. Well, you suck.
theresa
Yup. [Theresa affirms Biz throughout.]
biz
My fail this weekend is that I did not take enough Tylenol. [Laughs.] My—guys? I am 45 years old. And that’s okay. I love being 45 years old. [Theresa laughs.] Over the last few years, as I’ve done these various events at school, that are incredibly physically demanding, I realize that my body is different than the body I once had a while ago.
theresa
Huh. [Theresa continues affirming Biz throughout.]
biz
Yeah. I didn’t think my body would ever change. I didn’t think that, like—[laughs]—the way I conduct my life would affect how a sudden burst of, like, crossfit-level activity might make me feel. What I’ve learned is that it doesn’t make me feel good. And I was so physically hurt that I just—and like, tired—that I couldn’t even, like, get to—y’know you’re like, “I really need some Tylenol.” [Laughs.]
theresa
But then I’d have to get up!
biz
But then I’d have to like—I just—ugh. [Theresa groans.] Or, like, you only take, like, the one dose? And you really should’ve been taking it, like, every four-to-six hours? [Laughs.] [Singsong voice.] Older bodies! [Theresa laughs.]
caller
[Answering machine beeps.] Hi, One Bad Mother. I’m calling with a fail. So I was at a restaurant with my husband and my two kids and—there’s one-and-a-half-year-old and a three-and-a-half-year-old. And I really have a hard time with restaurant cups and the kid cups and straws— [Biz giggles.] —and the lids and the kids are always pulling the straws out of the cups. And my—my three-and-a-half-year-old can definitely use a cup without a lid. So I said, “Y’know what? Just please bring us a cup without a lid and straw, with milk in it, and she’ll be fine.” So we got our cups with the milk and of course within five minutes of getting the milk, the milk has been spilled all over the table. So the waiter comes back and says, “Do you want a lid for your cup?” [Biz and Theresa laugh.] And I feel like a complete idiot. And I say, “Y’know what? We’re done with the milk.” But, y’know, you just can’t win. Thanks. Have a great day. Everyone’s doing a great job. [Biz laughs.]
crosstalk
Biz: “Would you care for a lid now?” Theresa: Yeah. So—now would you like a—yeah. [Biz laughs wildly.]
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] I’ve—my favorite part of this call is at the beginning, where she says “I really have a hard time with the lids.” Like, as though this is just something particular to her? [Biz laughs.] Like, she just has this quirk about her personality where she’s annoyed with—
biz
Quirky. [Biz affirms Theresa throughout.]
theresa
Yeah! The straw—you really can’t win. It’s true. Like, the straw and the lid are their own set of issues. And having one—having a small cup with no lid and straw is—
crosstalk
Biz: Is an issue. Theresa: Is—is—but that’s also—
theresa
I feel like, given the options? It’s still a reasonable option. [Theresa affirms Biz throughout.]
biz
You know what? For me, it’s when—okay. The cup is either too big and they start to tilt it even though there’s a lid and a straw—it’s going to burst the dam.
theresa
It’s gonna spill. Yeah.
biz
It’s gonna burst the dam. Or they—
crosstalk
Biz: Now regardless—yeah! They still—drink and they’re like, why can’t I get anything to drink? Yeah, or it’s spilling! Theresa: Yeah. Or they—or they lift it up. If they’re a little kid, they start lifting it! To drink. Yeah. Or it’s spilling on them. Yeah.
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] Or they, like, the lid hasn’t been put on properly. Or—my favorite—they’re holding it and they squeeze it just enough to force the lid off. Yeah. Or—
theresa
Oh, yeah. That happens.
biz
Or to erupt liquid straight up the straw.
theresa
Or—as she mentioned—the pulling the straws out.
biz
In and out. [Biz affirms Theresa throughout.]
theresa
The other one is—because it’s a straw and it’s milk, my kids will just drink the whole thing. Right away. Because it’s a straw. Like if there’s no straw, they’ll take little sips. They won’t chug the whole thing. But if there’s a straw, they’ll just drink the entire eight—ten-ounce cup before the food even gets there. [Theresa affirms Biz throughout.]
biz
I am of the “no seconds refills” generations? That is like, you go to a restaurant—I can remember my father being, like, “This is all you’re getting. For your drink.” Right? It’s like [making slurping noise] suck it all down. Also, the in-out straw? Eventually the straw gets broken? And eventually gets, like, bent and then it doesn’t work or liquid comes out of the side. I smell an entire—[breaks off laughing.] [Theresa laughs.] —show topic. That is: eating out. And cups. Well, you’re doing a horrible job just being out in the world.
theresa
Yep.
biz
Everybody else is fine with cups. It’s just you.
theresa
Something wrong with your family. [Theresa affirms Biz throughout.]
biz
There’s—yeah! Your whole family. Yeah. Oh well! [Theresa laughs.] You suck.
music
“Mom Song” by Adira Amram. Mellow piano music with lyrics You are the greatest mom I’ve ever known I love you, I love you When I have a problem, I call you on the phone I love you, I love you [Music fades out.]
biz
[Jazzy piano music begins, continues through dialogue.] One Bad Mother is supported in part by Canvas On Demand.
theresa
At Canvas On Demand, you can transform your photos into stunning canvas wall art displays for your home or to give as a gift! Always affordable and only using the highest-quality materials and inks. Ordering takes only a couple of minutes, and you can upload your photo directly from your phone. So you can capture every moment that demands a canvas.
biz
Try today and create your own 16-by-20 canvas print for just $19.99! Today! At CanvasOnDemand.com/badmother. [Music fades out.]
biz
Hey, Theresa! Let’s call someone today.
music
[Up-tempo acoustic guitar with choral “ahhs” in background.]
biz
Theresa! This week we are talking to two people! [Laughs.] We are gonna be talking to Catherine D’Ignazio, who’s an Assistant Professor of Urban Science and Planning in the Department of Urban Studies and Planning at MIT, and Director of the Data + Feminism Lab. Jenn Roberts is an educator, facilitator, and mother who brings over 15 years of experience and passion in race and equity work. She is also the founder and CEO of Versed Education Group, which helps organizations begin conversations about race and equity that lead to action and lasting change. Catherine and Jenn are Co-Directors of the Make The Breast Pump Not Suck Project. Welcome to One Bad Mother’s! [Laughs.]
jenn roberts
Thank you! [Laughs.]
catherine d’ignazio
Thank you so much. Very slight correction—that I am the former—this is Catherine—the former Co-Director. But Jenn is now actually Co-Director with another one of our colleagues who is Kate Krontiris, and that—they represent the future of Make The Breast Pump Not Suck. [Laughs.]
biz
Excellent! Excellent. Thank you for that correction; that is wonderful. Just hang up, Catherine. [Theresa bursts into laughter.] I’m just kidding! [Laughs.] [Catherine and Jenn laugh heartily.]
theresa
Uh, Biz, did you notice how politely she corrected you?
biz
She did!
theresa
And how polite you were in accepting her correction?
biz
I was almost polite. [Theresa laughs.] Until I made that joke. Our topic today was—[laughs]—correcting. Uh, like, do you correct your kids when they pronounce, like, something wrong or it is too adorable. And then we discovered that the real conversation was—how do you correct how your kid corrects people? [Theresa laughs.] Um…so, anyway. [Catherine and Jenn laugh.]
catherine
That’s great. [Catherine laughs.]
biz
You did a lovely job. But let’s—I’m gonna start—before we get into—[laughs]—making the breast pump not suck—which I could make a lot of jokes about. Right this minute. [Catherine laughs.] Catherine, I wanna start with you. Who lives in your house?
catherine
So in my house you have me, my husband and partner for a long time, and, uh, we have three lovely children ages six, eight, and eleven. And one grumpy cat and one lovely cat. [Biz laughs. Theresa chuckles. Catherine and Jenn join in.]
biz
That is a perfect-sounding household. That sounds just about right. And you always have one grumpy and one nice cat, as a person who has three cats.
catherine
Yes.
biz
With three cats, I have one nice, one grumpy, and one who’s just kinda dumb. [Laughs.]
catherine
Yeah. [Laughs.] Yeah.
theresa
Which one is the dumb one? Is it Steve?
crosstalk
Biz: Steve’s—Steve’s a little— Catherine: But you love him anyway.
biz
Yeah. Steve’s not too bright. He’s a very voluptuous boy—
theresa
He is beautiful.
biz
—who constantly doesn’t understand what edges are. So— [Guests laugh.] —Anyhoo.
catherine
Poor guy. [Laughs.]
biz
I know. Poor baby. Alright, Jenn? Who lives in your house?
jenn
So mine is much simpler than Catherine’s. [Biz laughs.] It is me and my seven-year-old daughter, Nia. Who probably has the energy of three kids, but—[laughs.] [Biz laughs appreciatively.] Um—she is a delight and a dancer and so we get to vibe very much creatively in our space. So that’s who is in my house.
biz
Oh, yeah. Yeah. We are big believers in the, like, distilling the myth that it’s not about the number of kids in your house. [Laughs.] It’s about— [Jenn laughs.] —your kids. In general. Three is—three is something, and one is something. [Laughs.] [Jenn, Catherine, and Theresa join in laughing.] Uh—
jenn
The only child stuff is real.
biz
Oh, yeah. I can 100%—yes. My—my father is an only child and he’s very real. [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs. Jenn and Catherine join in.]
biz
Alright. Let’s get into making the breast pump not suck. So—in 2014, on Episode 82 of this very show—uh, in November! So almost five years ago, we spoke to Alexandra Metral about the very first Hackathon that MIT had. And that was a great conversation. It was such a genius idea. Let’s start, Catherine, with you—can you tell us a little bit about the history of the Hackathons over the last couple of years, and how you came to be involved with the project?
catherine
The—the first time I came on with it—and—and the second time—we’re at the MIT Media Lab, which is kind of like an epicenter of technology and innovation. And at the time—in—in 2014, hackathons are be—I mean, pretty big? Around MIT, um, at tech companies, in open-source software communities. Um, and so, y’know, they’re becoming big for a variety of reasons, but basically they were these things of people coming together for a short period of time, like a weekend, to try to either make progress on something, like open-source software communities often come together to try to, like, really hack on their projects. Like, making good progress on their projects while they’re together. Or in the case of, like, corporate-sponsored hackathons, y’know, they’re trying to, like, the corporation poses a problem and people come in and solve them. Um, and they’re usually young and most of them are white. [Laughs.] [Biz laughs raucously.] Um—[breaks off, laughing.]
biz
Yes. [Biz affirms Catherine throughout.]
catherine
So—there’s nothing gonna—y’know, so they—so we’re kind of like—well, actually, let me back up a little bit. So, before we started this idea, I was a graduate student at the MIT Media Lab, and kind of in this, like, high-tech innovation milieu. And I also had my third baby, my daughter. Nancy Jo. And so she was just a tiny little thing and, like, I was trying to kind of, like, balance. I had her sometimes with a nanny, sometimes I was bringing her, just, to classes and stuff with me. And then when I wasn’t with her I was pumping— [Biz laughs.] And I don’t know if you all have spent at the MIT Media Lab, but it’s this award-winning, prize-winning building, but it’s literally all transparent glass? [Biz laughs wildly.] And there’s no privacy anywhere. [Laughs.] And…I also like to call it the theater of innovation? [Laughs.] ‘Cause you just look at everybody doing innovation? [Laughs.] But if you are a breastfeeding mom, then like there’s nowhere to nurse privately; there’s nowhere to pump privately. So where I planted it was the bathroom, and, um, they’re nice bathrooms, but they’re bathrooms. Y’know? And so I’m sitting—and there’s no chairs, there’s no diaper changing tables, just like sitting on the floor, spilling breastmilk all over the bathroom floor of the MIT Media Lab. And I came out of the bathroom and I complained, basically it was just like, bitching to my colleagues. It’s like, why do I have to do this?! You know? Where it’s freaking MIT Media Labs! [Biz laughs.]
catherine
[Biz continues affirming Catherine throughout.] I’m like, why am I sitting on a bathroom floor? And she was Alexis Hope, who is still involved with the project, and she was like, let’s do something about this. Like, here we are at the Media Lab. Let’s do something about it. And so that’s really how the first Hackathon came about, and our conversations were like, okay, we’re hacking everything else! We’re making all these futuristic things like, lab actually does have the technology that thousands—hundreds of thousands of women in this country are using, um, and, uh, make it better. And so that’s really how the—the Make The Breast Pump Not Suck Hackathon was born. Um, and it went viral—that first time around when y’all talked with Alexandra, um, people were just, like, like—what?! Like, MIT is hacking the breast pump? What?! You know, and so through that process we had over 1,000 people wrote to us with their ideas for how to improve the breast pump, and that’s when we knew we were really—we had really, like, tapped into something that was meaningful and important and, um, you know, it’s always been about much more than the pump? Like, great, like, we can say, like, yeah, let’s make the breast pump not suck and that’s great because [laughs] it does suck. In like, literal and figurative ways. Like—[breaks off, laughing]. It’s like, um, but it’s always been a lot more than that. Like, make, you know, breastfeeding possible and achievable for as many people as possible. So. [Catherine affirms Biz throughout.]
biz
I—I—I just wanna add it’s also about recognizing that women are people? And [laughs] part of society? And that anything related to…uh, children being in your house? Right? Like, that—that has value? I mean, it’s…it—there—it’s not just, “Oh yeah, let’s make this, y’know, instrument, y’know, better,” it—the question is, why haven’t we? Well it—probably because it—well, it’s doing—[breaks off, laughing]. I always feel that with a lot of, like, female-related things. It is about—it’s about, like, we fix the problem once; all done.
theresa
It’s done. Yeah.
biz
We didn’t actually do a great deal of research—[laughs]—but—
crosstalk
Theresa: You’ve got something. Yeah. Biz: You guys got it.
biz
This is—it’s good enough. Jenn, I want to ask you—how did you get involved with this project, and, given your—your background, especially working in, y’know, race and equity work—there’s been a lot in the news lately about breastfeeding and people of color and—[sighs.] Breastfeeding is such like, a up-and-down—[laughs]—it can make you have all the feelings in all the different ways. But I’d like to talk about—hear about how you got involved and how you see this project working with that side of—of breastfeeding.
jenn
So…you know, after the 2014 Hackathon, Catherine and the crew got a lot of responses from different women about the things that were working for them and the things that were not working. And I think that they then realized, you know, there was a whole lot more than just hacking the pump, like, there was more to it. And that a lot of the things that came out of the 2014 Hackathon were at price points that really weren’t going to help, um, marginalized groups. Um, they were things that they could not afford or would not have access to, and so, like, it solved a problem for a group of people? [Biz laughs.] But it didn’t solve it for the folks that really need the most help? And so—they called on me to come on and help the group share a vision for what an equity-focused hackathon could look like. What would it look like to do this again, but to, you know, create a space where, um, we were designing solutions with marginalized groups in mind. And as we did that work I think what we also were learning and trying to discover together is the fact that because this type of work has been predominantly male and predominantly white in the past, that we were going to have to do quite a bit of work, um, to make the room for the 2018 Hackathon look like the people we wanted to serve. Um— [Biz laughs.]
crosstalk
Jenn: And so—we were very intent— Biz: Sorry. I do not mean to laugh.
biz
I am not laughing. I’m just like—
jenn
No, no, no.
biz
—it’s so stunning to me, yeah. Of course white men created all this stuff and were like, it’s done. And like—[breaks off, laughing.] They— [Jenn laughs.] —we have to actually work to make the room look like the people who would use it, which would be, again—a room full of people with children. Mothers—women! [Laughs.] Like that’s—it’s just like— [Chorus of “yes.”] —it’s not shocking, but it’s also just like, I’ve just reached this point where everything just comes out of me like a cynical laugh? So, uh— [Jenn laughs.] —I apologize for laughing.
jenn
[Biz affirms Jenn throughout.] I—I am that way sometimes as well, because some of these problems seem so ridiculous? It’s like, how come we have not solved this by now? Like, are we serious? So like, I have those moments as well. [Laughs.] [Biz laughs.] Um, and I think it was—you know, for us it was more than just, like, getting women in the room, because I think we could’ve easily got a bunch of women in the room— [Biz laughs wildly.] —but it was about making that room—the majority—people of color as well. Which in the tech world can be difficult. It’s not that we don’t exist; it’s just that…um, a lot of folks don’t take the time to find us. And so it was very important for us to make sure that room was majority women and people of color, that those folks represented, you know, lots of different backgrounds in terms of socioeconomic status. That we had Native women in the room that were speaking for themselves and the things that they needed. That we had trans folks in the room speaking up for what they needed. And so the—the real intention here was not to put people in a room to design for other people, but to put people in a room to design for themselves. And that’s not what we usually do, um, in our world. And it’s what we should be doing more of. And so we really wanted to try that—I don’t think we thought it would turn out like this—[laughs]—when we started it?
jenn
[Biz continues affirming Jenn throughout.] But I think at this point the way we’re thinking about things is that this is an opportunity to really help show folks what’s cap—what we’re capable of when you create the space and the time for people of color and marginalized groups and give them the resources that they need to—can solve their own problems. They don’t really need us to solve problems for them. Um, they just need the space and the time and the opportunity and the resources to do it for themselves. And so that’s really what we were trying to do; what we’ve been trying to do; what our—what our collective is really focused on. In terms of that, too. So that’s kind of the difference of the two and, like, how I got a part of this wonderful crew.
biz
So Jenn, I’m gonna follow up with the question of: what, y’know—and Catherine, you can jump in—what came out of the 2018 one? I mean, what were the really big takeaways that you guys were, like—that when you put this group together, y’know, produced? [Biz affirms Jenn throughout.]
jenn
There were a couple things. Like, one, I think the fact that we added policy hacking to this one was something different. And I think, y’know, like folks looking at places other than the tech world to quote-unquote “hack”— [Biz laughs shortly.] —was something that was different for people. But I think that once they got in the room and they were like, oh, we absolutely could be breaking down these policies and trying to figure out, like, how do we work together. Um, some of the folks that were in the room were doing this thing, working different states, but had never met each other. And so, like, the ability to then bring those people together to have a bigger impact when they left? Um, was something that I knew—that I thought was excellent and great about the experience. But some of the things that came out of the breast pump hacking that I thought were interesting—my favorite winner was the group from New Orleans, from the New Orleans Breastfeeding Center, um, and what they created, which was a pack to use for breastfeeding in emergency situations, and the two people were a part of that group were—they lived through Hurricane Katrina.
jenn
[Biz continues affirming Jenn throughout.] They knew the things that they—that they had issues with in terms of trying to feed their children, in watching other people try to feed that children during that process. And so for them, this was personal. This was, like, there is a better way for us to do this. We’re going to have disasters in this city forever. Like, we’re always gonna have hurricanes. So like, how do we create a space that people feel like, at least if I have to evacuate my home I can still feed my child? And I think that this is the thing that, like, made me do one of those cynical laughs, because I’m like, how have we not done this already?! Like—it seems so simple! But when you don’t have people in the room who’ve had these experiences, you overlook those problems. And so, um, I know for me that was one of my favorites. But I know Catherine probably has some.
biz
[Theresa, Jenn, and Catherine interject regularly to agree with Biz.] I once again have to do my cynical laugh, uh, with you Jenn. Of the, like— [Jenn laughs.] —I’m trying to think. We live in Southern California, so earthquakes, you know, preparedness is a big thing. And I think about, like, all the, like, lists that we get on the radio or at, like, school fairs or whatever. It’s all tennis shoes, medications, and water. But it’s never, like, make sure you have tampons, diapers, and breast pumps! You know? Like it’s—like—I—
theresa
Some lists will go so far as to name formula.
crosstalk
Theresa: I’ve seen formula—like, pre—premixed formula? Biz: Formula! That’s true. I’ve seen formula.
theresa
But like, that doesn’t take into account the person who’s lactating? And their needs? Like, if you have formula, great. But…like—
biz
You still—[laughs.]
theresa
—if you’re—if you’re pump—like, if you’re pumping and feeding your baby that way? You can have—use the formula, but then what do you do—like—
theresa
Jenn: Do with your milk? Theresa: —you’re manually expressing or something? Biz: Yeah! [Laughs wildly.]
theresa
I mean, that’s…yeah.
biz
It just—
theresa
Yes.
biz
It’s—
jenn
It’s absurd. It’s like—it’s crazy! Right? It’s like—it’s impossible, like, to think that of all the things that this is something that no one has thought of before. And it took two women in 2018 who had been through a really hard experience to be given the opportunity, the space to think, the space to walk away from the jobs they have every day and say, like, we’ve been given this opportunity. We have two days to just think. And like, most of the time marginalized people do not have that time. We don’t have time to sit and think. And so if we had time to sit and think, if we had resources, if those things were made available to us, imagine the number of problems that could be solved, um, by the people who experience them themselves. So, I know that’s—that’s really our goal with this. Um, I don’t know if Catherine has other, like—
crosstalk
Biz: Yeah, Catherine? Jenn: —examples than this.
jenn
I feel like that’s what we saw through the whole thing. It’s just like, oh my goodness! How come we had not figured this out before? [Biz laughs.]
catherine
Yeah. Uh, totally right. And I would love to share one of my other favorites was the group, um, Indigenous Women Rising from New Mexico, but they’re a group of Native women. And, um, they do breastfeeding advocacy and I love their innovation because it was an—they did modifications to their traditional Native regalia that they wear for ceremonies? It’s like, incredibly beautiful but very—very complicated to put it on, like, sometimes they can take, like, a couple hours to actually get all the stuff on. And then it often—it’s like, not breastfeeding-friendly, like, at all. [Biz laughs.] ‘Cause there’s all these different pieces and parts and, like, the—so if you’re gonna like, step away from your ceremony and nurse your baby, you have to, like, completely disrobe and then re-robe—you like, it’d be like, taking hours away, like, and you’d be sitting out of the ceremony. And so they worked with Native seamstresses to do this very smart, uh, and discreet modifications? To the traditional regalia. And sort of, like, demoed some of those. They’re like, a couple different designs that they demoed and piloted at the Hackathon. And then they’ve actually gone on to continue to use that and it’s actually become, like, a little bit of like, a mob, but like a little bit of an academic development thing. ‘Cause like the word has gotten out in their communities that there’s this, um, source of breastfeeding-friendly regalia, and so people are hiring these seamstresses— [Biz chuckles.]
catherine
—through the Indigenous Women Rising, and so it’s really kind of lovely? And again, teaches us that…it’s like a bunch of, like, white guys in a R&D lab would not have come up with [through laughter] this, you know? So—um— [Biz laughs.] This idea of like, okay, how do we get the right people at the table who—to actually do the innovations that we need.
biz
Oh, I’m just gonna heavy sigh. Do you mean listen to people? And, like— [Catherine, Jenn, and Theresa laugh.] —ask questions? Or, it’s much easier—okay. I’m just gonna lose my mind. Alright! I’ve gotta move on. You talked about regionals, regional areas. Uh, which leads me to my next question, which is: you guys started community innovation programs in four different cities—Boston, Detroit, New Mexico, and Tupelo—can you tell us about those programs?
catherine
Yes! So that—that came out at a early stage. And so—[laughs.] We would back up a little bit, like, prior to the Hackathon we started planning this 2018 Hackathon, you know, like 18 months before it happened. And, um, people are always like, why are you guys taking so long to plan a Hackathon? [Biz laughs.] Like, normally a Hackathon is something you like, just throw together with some pizza, you know, the day before or something. And the reason was, you know, as we first started setting out on this journey of thinking about, like, how do we incorporate, like, racial equity and socioeconomic equity as a kind of lens into this, um, we became more and more aware of just how much work in a way that, like, we had to do in thinking about how to get those right people in the room. [Biz laughs quietly.] Um, and like it doesn’t sound like it should be a hard problem, but it actually is kind of a hard problem. And I wanted to tell one anecdote ‘cause it’s really meaningful for the project and for the, um, beginning of the community innovations program. We were talking to a woman named Kiddada Green, is uh, the executive director of the Black Mother’s Breastfeeding Association in Detroit. And we were sort of telling her about the project, about some of the research that we wanted to do, to bring kind of useful personas to the Hackathon for—for people to work with so they could know, like, relevant use cases and things like that. And she’s a national leader in breastfeeding equity and it’s, like, well, you all, the event really sounds like the main value is attending. And so how many black designers are you all gonna have in attendance at the event?
catherine
And we’re like, oh. Y’know, we didn’t—we hadn’t even really been, like, thinking about like that. And this is, again, like, 18 months prior to the event actually happening. [Biz laughs.] We’re like, duh! You know? Like, we—we need to, like, really think about this. It’s like, how do we bring folks here rather than having—I don’t know—some MIT people, like, making stuff for the rest of the world or something. And so that’s where, like, our thinking really shifted and that’s how the community innovation program really began. Is we said, okay, well, like, how do we actually help scaffold folks who are already innovators in their communities? And so that was a—it’s like, really amazing and I gotta say transformative process where we all ended up, like, crying together multiple times. [Laughs.] [Biz laughs. Theresa and Jenn join in.] And it’s like—because—it was.
jenn
I think the biggest thing was that, you know, we were helping them, like, you know learn some of the technical aspects of design? Uh, but I think that they helped us quite a bit, too, in shaping what the…Hackathon really ended up being? Um, and where we ended up focusing our resources and our attention after our first meeting with these groups. Um, and I think it goes back to what we were saying before, that, you know, once you get folks in the room who’ve had different experience, that you’re going to hear different information. So having—even thinking that we had talked to quite a few people, having them come to the room and hear what we were—were sharing, like, it was them that said, like, “Hey! Like, I’m glad you invited us here, but like, this place is intimidating. And you’re going to have to figure out a way to help people get real comfortable real quick, or they’re not going to trust you to do this work.” Or, like, “Hey, like, you know, it’s really great that you brought us here to teach us all this stuff, but this is a very linear process and most—you know, people of color do not think that way.” So, like, how are you going to, like, accommodate what is a very white way of thinking, technical way of thinking, like…high academia, ivory tower way of thinking, and, like, translate it for people who have never had these experiences before. So, you know, like, it—it was really helpful to have them in the space trying out things, um, and telling us, like, hey, like all of your technical experience is great. But, like, we need you to take it and put it in a way that we will be able to digest and understand. And I think, um, that that challenge and them feeling like they could come to us and share? Is the reason why we’re probably still so close with them now.
jenn
I’m like, wow. Why we’re so encouraging. And I think it’s also why, um, the Hackathon we did in Detroit this summer, I think that’s the reason why that one ended up being so successful. Is because we had all of this feedback from the folks in the community who were, like, hey, this is what I think would make this work. And they were right. And we listened. And—[breaks off, laughing.] [Catherine laughs.] Um, and I think it made a huge difference! [Laughs.]
biz
Ahhhh. You listened! That’s so odd!
crosstalk
Biz: I don’t understand! Jenn: That’s a novel idea, right? [Laughs.] [Laughter from Theresa.]
biz
I know. Oh my gosh. I feel like what—uh, talking to you ladies, that I also would like to stand in a hallway with you and cry. Um… [Everyone laughs.]
catherine
There was a lot of crying at the Hackathon.
crosstalk
Jenn: There was! There was a lot of crying! Catherine: And we—it’s kind of, like—
catherine
That we—I mean, it was—there was happy crying, there was sad crying, there was, like, recounting birth trauma crying, there was recounting breastfeeding trauma crying, there was absurd breastmilk, like, slime? [Laughs.] I don’t know. One woman stood on stage and, like, poured breastmilk into the audience like there was, like, hilarious crying? [All laughs.]
biz
Oh…my God. I just—
jenn
It was an experience.
biz
Really wanna be invited to this event. Um, okay! We actually have to wrap up, be—and—this—very clear we could continue talking. In fact, we might need to have you guys back on soon to continue—
crosstalk
Jenn: Oh, we’d love to. Biz: —to talk about—
biz
Some of the stuff you guys are working on, because we haven’t even gotten into a lot of the things, including the book, uh, Speaking the Truth. So what I’m gonna do is make sure that everybody’s linked up, all our listeners are able to find out more about the Make The Breast Pump Not Suck Project, as well as, uh, the other projects you guys are working on. I just—let me say, thank you so much for listening. To people.
catherine
Thank you!
crosstalk
Jenn: Thank you. For listening to us! Catherine: Thank you. Thanks for having us on.
catherine
And—yeah. We’re happy to come back any time.
biz
Yeah. We’ll have you back—
crosstalk
Jenn: Yeah. Absolutely. Biz: What is—yeah.
biz
And not just have you back soon, but we’re gonna have to continue to check in [through laughter] on this project.
jenn
Yes, please!
biz
Every couple years. To see what’s developing. I love it.
jenn
We are constantly doing things. So yes, please, please, please.
biz
Absolutely. Uh, thank you so much! And have a wonderful day!
crosstalk
Jenn: Thank you! You, too! Catherine: Thanks! You all too! Bye-bye! Bye!
crosstalk
Biz: Okay. Buh-bye! Theresa: Bye!
music
“Telephone,” by “Awesome.” Down-tempo guitar and falsetto singing. Brainwaves send a message: Pick up the phone (When you, I call) Arm is moving now, no longer stone (When you, I call) Hand reaches out with a will of its own (When you, I call) [Music fades out.]
promo
Music: Quiet rock. Aimee Mann: Hello, this is Aimee Mann. Ted Leo: And I'm Ted Leo. Aimee: And we have a podcast called The Art of Process. Ted: We've been lucky enough over the past year to talk to some of our friends and acquaintances from across the creative spectrum to find out how they actually work. Speaker 1: And so I have to write material that makes sense and makes people laugh. I also have to think about what I'm saying to people. Speaker 2: If I kick your ass, I'll make you famous. Speaker 3: The fight to get LGBTQ representation in the show. Ted & Aimee: Mm-hm. Speaker 4: We weirdly don't know as many musicians as you would expect. Speaker 5: I really just became a political speech writer by accident. Speaker 6: I'm realizing that I have accidentally, uhhh, pulled my pants down. [Someone starts to laugh.] Ted: Listen and subscribe at MaximumFun.org or wherever you get your podcasts. Speaker 7: It's like if the guinea pig was complicit in helping the scientist. [Music ends.]
promo
[Music.] Paula Poundstone: Hi, it's me, Paula Poundstone! Adam Felber: And it's me, Adam Felber! Paula: We have a podcast called Nobody Listens to Paula Poundstone. It's a comedy podcast where we bring on experts to teach us stuff we need to know. Adam: Aaand by the way, the guy who came to tell us what to do when you encounter a bear never showed up. Paula: Anyway! It's fun. You are guaranteed laughs in every episode. Adam: You can't really guarantee laughs. What if somebody doesn't laugh? We'll get sued. Paula: Join us for our next episode, when we have an expert in consumer law explain to us how to defend ourselves against one humorless litigious shut-in with enough time on their hands to sue us over our unfulfilled claim of guaranteed laughs in every episode! Here at MaximumFun.org. [Long pause as the music plays.] Adam: The cat of the week is Mabel from Green Bank, West Virginia. [Music stops.]
biz
Wooo! I…love…speaking and listening to smart women. [Laughs.]
theresa
Me, too.
biz
In fact, if you wanna continue basking in the glory—[laughs]—of these two smart women, Catherine D’Ignazio as well as Jenn Roberts, you guys can head over to the Make The Breast Pump Not Suck Project and you can see, like, all the different innovations and stories and experiences that have come out of the Hackathons. Uh, it’s just amazing. You know what’s also amazing? Listening to a mom have a breakdown.
caller
[Answering machine beeps.] Hello, Biz and Theresa. Um, this is…Hm. This is a, um, uh—it’s a fail or a rant. I don’t know. It’s not that rant-y. Um, it’s like a life situation bullshit. That’s what it is. So I, um, I’m folding everyone’s fucking laundry right now and, um— [Biz laughs.] —I was folding a pair of my pants and I started folding them and I was sort of, like, half in my closet and half out of my closet and my pants were kind of out of the closet ‘cause I was folding them there for whatever reason? I dunno. It sounds like I was all twisty-turny, but that’s how I feel. And, um, all of a sudden I hear a sound that I didn’t know what it was, and I’m so tightly-wound because so much shit is going on and I am— [Biz laughs.] —so stressed, and so many things are changing in my life, that I truly, like, could see myself in a panic, saw myself freeze, like, “What the fuck is that?!” [Biz laughs.]
caller
And, uhhhh…then…with that awareness of that that’s what my body was doing, I had the presence of mind to realize that a nickel—a very scary nickel— [Biz and Theresa laugh.] —fell out of my pants while I was folding my pants. So that’s where I’m at, that I’m—I’ve got so much going on, and I’m…I’m so freaked out to the—uh, attunement of all the sounds around me that a nickel is terrifying. So. Yeah. I got to see that I did that and laugh. Okay. Well. Hopefully—hopefully that gets better. [Biz laughs.] Um, you are doing a great job. Thanks for the show! Bye.
biz
Yeah.
theresa
“Hopefully that gets better.”
biz
Yeah. Hope—
crosstalk
Theresa: Let’s say that to ourselves every day. Biz: All the time! [Laughs wildly.]
theresa
About everything. Well, hopefully that gets better. [Laughs.]
biz
Yeah! [Laughs wildly and at length.] Oh. I could apply that to everything.
theresa
I really could, too.
biz
I mean, it’s just like, turn off the news!
crosstalk
Biz: Hopefully that gets better. [Laughs.] Theresa: Yeah. [Through laughter] Hopefully that gets better. [Laughs.] [Both laugh for several seconds.]
biz
[Theresa agrees with Biz throughout, while also laughing.] Wow. [Laughs.] Your—your kid waking up for, like, the twentieth time in the middle of the night, climbing into your bed? Hopefully that gets better. [Theresa laughs.] That is—yeah! You’re wound tight.
theresa
Yeah you are.
crosstalk
Biz: You are—I—oh—I have no idea. I have never— Theresa: What’s that like? I have no idea. I’ve never.
biz
Never been scared by—[breaks off, laughing.] Just the breathing of my children behind me without knowing it. [Theresa laughs.] Did you scream? Because I always scream.
theresa
Yeah.
crosstalk
Biz: Sometimes they’re—they’re—it’s more of a shriek. And not as cathartic as I want it to be. Theresa: It’s a shriek. More than a scream. Right?
crosstalk
Theresa: No. Cause it’s—‘cause immediately you know that it’s—not called for? But— Biz: It wasn’t anything.
biz
Hmmm. So it’s more like—[laughs]—it’s more, [sinister voice] “There’s something wrong with me.” [Laughs wildly.] [Biz affirms Theresa throughout.]
theresa
Yeah. Yeah. You can always tell in my house ‘cause I’ll think everything’s going fine but then a dog will bark unexpectedly and I’ll shriek. A full shriek! And you guys, my dogs bark throughout the day. Like, it’s not—it’s not, like, my dogs are not bark-y dogs. Like, they’ll bark and I’ll literally shriek. Like, it’s not like [gasps], it’s—it’s a full, vocal, loud, terrible noise. And that’s how I know you’re not okay, Theresa. [Biz laughs wildly.] Well, hopefully that gets better.
biz
Hopefully that gets [through laughter] better. [Laughs.] I just love you? And, uh, we see you.
theresa
Yeah, we do. We do. [Theresa affirms Biz throughout.]
biz
And I think the real takeaway is to stop doing laundry? Just ever. Just…be dirty.
theresa
Stop putting nickels in your pockets.
crosstalk
Biz: Oh, yeah. Stefan calls me— Theresa: You’ve gotta avoid putting change in your pockets.
biz
Stefan calls me Sonic the Hedgehog since ever since he has known me, if you pick up a pair of my jeans, just nickels and pennies, like it’s change just all, like, [makes jingling noises] and it’s, like, roll everywhere?
theresa
That’s amazing.
biz
Yeah. It is. You’re doing a very good job.
theresa
Yeah, you are.
biz
Yeah.
theresa
You have a lot of self-awareness!
crosstalk
Biz: That’s a plus. Theresa: I’m impressed by all your self-awareness.
biz
I agree.
theresa
Yeah.
biz
Theresa? What have we learned today? Well…we learned that our children are going to continue to get older? And…uh, it’s going to hit us in the most of unusual ways. Goodbye, Starblocks. [Theresa makes sad whimpering noise.]
theresa
We should open a business called Starblocks.
biz
Let’s do it.
theresa
Starblocks and Octoflusses. [Biz laughs.]
crosstalk
Theresa: It’s a toy store. I guess. Oh. Biz: It’s a—it’s a—I was gonna say a sex toy store. [Laughs.] Theresa: Oh, there ya go! Even better. Biz: That’s just, like, a shop for you to get your mom porn. Theresa: Yeah. There we go.
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] Um…that’s it. I mean, I, you know, almost all of our conversations that we have here somehow probably tie back to the idea that we start out with these very young beings in our house. They’re a lot of work. And then they keep getting older and we keep getting tired? And those things don’t always go well—tired and emotions? Not good friends. And things like Starblocks can really make you feel sad. Uh, when—before you had kids, you would’ve thought it was dumb. [Bursts out laughing.] [Theresa laughs.] What’s wrong with you? That’s—what’s wrong with your [through laughter] that’s dumb. It’s “Starbucks!”
theresa
“Star…bucks.” [Theresa affirms Biz throughout.]
biz
“—Bucks.” Now go get your mother a latte. [Theresa laughs.] Anyway. We also learned that listening is important, guys. God. Dammit. I mean—this is dumb. Everybody needs to be invited to the table. If you feel like something, uh, related to your health or well-being doesn’t seem to fit quite right? It’s probably because it was designed a long time ago? By a very small group of people? And no one really gave a shit how it might affect you. [Laughs.] Surprise! So…let’s continue to listen to each other. And…invite as many voices to the listening party as possible? And…again, what I always learn, uh, from doing this show, is that…those voices might be—and probably will be—different from mine? Same with experiences. And no one’s having those experiences at me. And…it’s good to listen. It’s good to listen! Learning is a good thing. Everybody—you’re all doing a really good job. We see you. You’re tired. We’re tired. It’s a lot. And…doesn’t help when the things around you probably weren’t really made for you? [Laughs wildly.] [Theresa laughs.]
biz
Yet, it’s what we’ve got. That doesn’t help. But you’re doing great! Theresa? You’re doing a really good job.
theresa
Thanks, Biz. So are you.
biz
Thank you. We are gonna talk to you guys next week!
crosstalk
Biz and Theresa: Byeee!
music
“Mama Blues” by Cornbread Ted and the Butterbeans. Strumming acoustic guitar with harmonica and lyrics. I got the lowdown momma blues Got the the lowdown momma blues Gots the lowdown momma blues The lowdown momma blues Gots the lowdown momma blues Got the lowdown momma blues You know that’s right [Music fades somewhat, plays in background of dialogue.]
biz
We’d like to thank Max Fun, our producer, Hannah Smith; our husbands, Stefan Lawrence and Jesse Thorn; our perfect children, who provide us with inspiration to say all these horrible things; and of course, you, our listeners. To find out more about the songs you heard on today’s podcast and more about the show, please go to MaximumFun.org/onebadmother. For information about live shows, our book and press, please check out OneBadMotherPodcast.com.
theresa
One Bad Mother is a member of the Maximum Fun family of podcasts. To support the show go to MaximumFun.org/donate. [Music continues for a while before fading out.]
speaker 2
Comedy and culture.
speaker 3
Artist owned—
speaker 4
—Audience supported.
About the show
One Bad Mother is a comedy podcast hosted by Biz Ellis about motherhood and how unnatural it sometimes is. We aren’t all magical vessels!
Join us every week as we deal with the thrills and embarrassments of motherhood and strive for less judging and more laughing.
Call in your geniuses and fails: 206-350-9485. For booking and guest ideas, please email onebadmother@maximumfun.org. To keep up with One Bad Mother on social media, follow @onebadmothers on Twitter and Instagram.
Get in touch with the show
onebadmother@maximumfun.org
@OneBadMothers
@onebadmothers
How to listen
Stream or download episodes directly from our website, or listen via your favorite podcatcher!
