TRANSCRIPT Judge John Hodgman Ep. 528: Hubble Jeopardy

00:00:00

Sound Effect

Transition

[Three gavel bangs.]

00:00:02

Jesse Thorn

Host

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorn. This week: "Hubble Jeopardy"!

Kathryn files suit against her friend Jerome. Jerome commissioned Kathryn to paint large-scale panels inspired by the Hubble Telescope photos. She did, and he's thrilled! Except for one thing: She didn't sign her work. She says that's not her thing, but even still, Jerome thinks she should sign the panels.

Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one can decide.

00:00:33

Sound Effect

Sound Effect

[As Jesse speaks below: Door opens, chairs scrape on the floor, footsteps.]

00:00:34

Jesse

Host

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

00:00:39

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Sound Effect

[Door shuts.]

00:00:41

John Hodgman

Host

"A straight line can be readily drawn among each of the two series of points corresponding to the maxima and minima, thus showing that there is a simple relation between the brightness of the Cepheid variables and their periods."

00:00:53

Jesse

Host

Kathryn and Jerome, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever?

00:01:02

Jerome

Guest

Whatever.

00:01:03

Kathryn

Guest

We do!

00:01:04

Jesse

Host

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that… he's a rocket man, and I think it's gonna be a long, long time?

00:01:11

Kathryn

Guest

Yes we do.

00:01:12

Jerome

Guest

Yes.

00:01:13

Jesse

Host

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

00:01:15

John

Host

Kathryn and Jerome, you may be seated.

00:01:16

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[Chairs scrape.]

00:01:17

John

Host

For an immediate summary judgment in one of yours' favors, could one of you please—or both of you!—perhaps name the piece of obscure culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom. Uh, Kathryn, why don't you guess first.

00:01:31

Kathryn

Guest

Um, I'm gonna guess, uh, Star Trek: The Original Series, the "Mirror, Mirror" episode, and Evil Spock says it.

00:01:40

John

Host

Hoo! That is a solid guess!

00:01:42

Kathryn

Guest

Thank you.

00:01:43

John

Host

"A straight line can be readily drawn among each of the two series of points corresponding to the maxima and minima…"

The "Mirror, Mirror" episode from the original series—TOS—of Star Trek; I'm putting it into the guess book. Jerome…

00:01:54

Jesse

Host

John—sorry, I don't mean to interrupt here, but, um… I think it's a bad guess. Uh, because—

[The litigants and John laugh.]

00:02:02

John

Host

How dare you?

00:02:03

Jesse

Host

Because, John? John?

00:02:04

John

Host

Yeah.

00:02:05

Jesse

Host

Spock—Spock is a good guy.

00:02:06

Kathryn

Guest

Oh—oh, I'm sorry, Jesse, but when he has a goatee, he's—he's all evil. All the time.

00:02:11

John

Host

Right.

00:02:12

Jesse

Host

He has pointy ears. You're thinking of a different character.

[Kathryn laughs.]

Go ahead, John.

00:02:15

John

Host

You don't—uh, I'm sorry, Kathryn. You don't, uh—you may not know this, but… I think it's been—how long, Jesse, that you've had a beard and a mustache? Six years? Seven years?

00:02:25

Jesse

Host

Oh, uhh, I—yeah, seven years, let's say.

00:02:28

John

Host

That's when Evil Jesse came in. We're—we're dealing with Mirror Universe Jesse.

[Jesse and Kathryn laugh.]

I don't know what—I don't know what you did with my—with my lovely… uh, bald-faced, bald-headed, pure baby-face man child friend that I used to know. But guess what? In 2014 or 15 or so, I grew a beard, too, so it's—we're both Mirror Universe.

00:02:53

Jesse

Jesse

Yeah. We're evil. Watch out, punk rock guys on buses!

00:02:56

John

Host

[Stifling laughter] That's right.

00:02:57

Jesse

Host

We're gonna give you the death grip.

[Kathryn chuckles.]

00:02:59

John

Host

That's right. And we know that Jennifer Marmor is Mirror Universe Jennifer Marmor, because she's wearing a golden sash, and she's carrying a cutlass.

But Joel Mann here at WERU in Maine… Well, you have always rocked that goatee, right?

00:03:10

Joel Mann

Guest

That's right.

00:03:11

John

Host

Okay.

00:03:12

Jesse

Host

Joel Mann is chaotic neutral.

[Kathryn chuckles.]

00:03:13

John

Host

That's right. Joel Mann is Uatu the Watcher; he is not paying attention to—he's not a moral arbiter of this universe, he just sits behind the glass.

Anyway, Jerome, what was your guess?

00:03:24

Jerome

Guest

My guess is, uh, Euclid, The Elements.

00:03:27

John

Host

Euclid, The Elements! Jesse, is that a rapper?

00:03:32

Jesse

Host

No, that's the, uh—[laughing] that's the third baseman from Moneyball.

00:03:36

John

Host

[Stifling laughter] Got it.

00:03:38

Jesse

Host

Kevin Euclid.

[Kathryn laughs quietly.]

00:03:39

John

Host

Alll guesses are wrong. I am… sorry to say. Uh, I was hoping that one of you could say, "Well, I guess you're probably, uh, quoting Edwin Hubble! For whom the Hubble Telescope is named."

And then I could say, "No, you're wrong again!"

[Kathryn laughs quietly.]

Double wrong on you! Because the person I was actually quoting… was Henrietta Swan Leavitt. Now, Henrietta Swan Leavitt was an astronomer. She lived from 1868 to 1921. She died young at the age of 53. She was a graduate of Radcliffe. She eventually became a person without hearing. She was a non-hearing astronomer for much of her career, which was spent at the Harvard College Observatory, where she worked as a, quote, "computer." Which was the—[stifles laughter] the name that men scientists gave to women scientists before they would admit they were scientists. They were "computers of data," specifically tasked with examining photographic plates and measuring and cataloguing the brightness of stars.

She prepared a study in 1912 that I quoted from. That study was called "The Periods of 25 Variable Stars in the Small Magellanic Cloud." Which everyone now knows as the Po25 Mixtape. In which she outlined the period-luminosity relationship of… Cepheid (see-feed) stars. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that correctly; don't send me letters. C-E-P-H-E-I-D, maybe sef-aid?

The point is, these stars pulse in temperature and light. And the constant relationship between their period and their luminosity would become known as Leavitt's Law, and would allow astronomers to—for once and finally—be able to calculate not only galactic distances, but intergalactic distances, which they couldn't do before then because they only had tape measures.

00:05:32

John

Host

Leavitt's Law allowed astronomers to establish that the universe is much larger than we thought. Also established [briefly furtive] we're not at the center of it. And also, would be used by Edwin Hubble to demonstrate that the universe is expanding; it's getting bigger! That was Edwin Hubble's big discovery that got his name on a telescope, even though his discovery was based on a piece of research done by Henrietta Swan Leavitt, who died in Cambridge, Massachusetts, our fair city, at the age of 53, and she only got an asteroid out of it. Uh, Asteroid 5383 Leavitt. And a hole in the moon called Crater Leavitt, on the dark side of the moon.

She also got a telescope somewhere else.

So there you go. History lesson for you astronomy buffs.

00:06:20

Kathryn

Guest

Wow! Good for them! Very good.

00:06:23

John

Host

Yeah. Good for them.

00:06:25

Jesse

Host

Don't put down the dark side of the moon, John. That's the cool side of the moon!

[Someone snorts.]

Literally and figuratively! [Stifles laughter.]

00:06:29

Kathryn

Guest

Mm-hm!

00:06:32

John

Host

[Stifles laughter.] Ughhh. I don't have a Pink Floyd joke for you. Do you have one for me?

[Kathryn laughs quietly.]

00:06:36

Jesse

Host

Okay. I don't know, I'm—[laughing] I'm kinda comfortably numb over here.

[Kaythryn laughs.]

00:06:41

Joel

Guest

We're all just bricks in the wall.

00:06:43

John

Host

Oh, boy, Joel.

00:06:44

Jesse

Host

Yeah.

[Kathryn and someone else laugh.]

00:06:47

Jesse

Host

Yeah.

00:06:48

John

Host

Uatu, you're just supposed to be watching. You can't affect this reality.

[Kathryn chuckles.]

Anyway, let's hear this case. Kathryn—

00:06:55

Kathryn

Guest

Hi.

00:06:56

John

Host

You come to this court seeking justice. What is the justice that you seek?

00:07:00

Kathryn

Guest

Oh, um, Jerome wants me to sign—uh, sign these humongous drops that I've painted. And—and I just don't wanna do it. I'm not gonna do it. Not—I don't wanna do it.

00:07:12

John

Host

You've created art for—for Jerome's home?

00:07:15

Kathryn

Guest

I did! Jerome has this amazing—

00:07:18

John

Host

What I like to call the Jer-home?

[Kathryn and Jesse laugh.]

00:07:22

Kathryn

Guest

Yeah! Um, it's—it's actually an outbuilding. It's, like, separate from the home. It's its own… special realm. Um—

00:07:32

John

Host

It's a poop shack. It's a poop shack.

[Someone laughs.]

00:07:35

Kathryn

Guest

Sure!

00:07:37

John

Host

You drew—you drew a starscape for Jerome's poop shack out back?

00:07:39

Kathryn

Guest

I did!

00:07:40

John

Host

Composting toilet?

00:07:41

Kathryn

Guest

Mm-hm.

00:07:43

Jesse

Host

Please do not insult the Jer-home, John. The Jer-home is known the world over for its Jer-majesty!

[Kathryn laughs.]

00:07:50

John

Host

And you don't wanna sign your art, because you would prefer to go down in relative anonymity much like Henrietta Swan Leavitt?

00:07:56

Kathryn

Guest

Well—yes! Truly. Honestly, yes. Um, because I have a theatre background, and I've learned sort of—I've learned to do work in service of—of greater good. Usually in theatre it's in service of the show.

00:08:12

John

Host

Yes.

00:08:13

Kathryn

Guest

And I feel like this was exactly in the service of Jerome's vision. It wasn't really my personal artwork. Also, they're huge! They're, like, theatre drops.

00:08:22

John

Host

Right.

00:08:23

Kathryn

Guest

Nine-foot by twelve-foot canvases.

00:08:27

John

Host

Right.

00:08:28

Kathryn

Guest

That, um—like, you wouldn't make a drop for a theatre show and put your name on it. Like, you would just do it, and walk away. You would, like—

00:08:35

John

Host

I completely understand where you're coming from.

00:08:37

Kathryn

Guest

Yeah.

00:08:38

John

Host

Yeah.

00:08:39

Kathryn

Guest

You would just moonwalk outta there, knowing that you did a great job.

00:08:42

John

Host

I completely understand where you're coming from, Kathryn. Jesse Thorn, you know, I—I have not spent a lot of time treading the boards of live theatre. But I certainly have done my fair share of my imitation acting on screen, and I have spent some time in the entertainment world, and I can confirm with Kathryn: It is a completely egoless pursuit.

[One of the litigants laughs.]

The one thing that matters the least when putting on any kind of show… is no one gets credit.

[Kathryn laughs, John stifles laughter.]

00:09:10

Jesse

Host

Yeah.

00:09:11

John

Host

No one—no one gets credit at all, whatsoever. That's—no one cares! As long as the show goes on, no one cares where they appear in the credits.

00:09:20

Jesse

Host

We're all just a face in the crowd, John.

00:09:22

John

Host

Another brick in the wall!

00:09:23

Jesse

Host

That's why one goes into the entertainment industry.

[Kathryn chuckles.]

00:09:26

John

Host

That's right. Become faceless. Kathryn, do you have a—you have a background in theatre, and you refer to these things as "drops." And just for those of our listeners who are not down with the theatre lingo, a drop would be what?

00:09:37

Kathryn

Guest

Um, I call 'em a "drop" because they're made from drop cloths. Like, painters' drop cloths.

00:09:42

John

Host

Mm-hm.

00:09:43

Kathryn

Guest

And they're—so they're soft. They're not stretched on a canvas. And Jerome has sort of hung them in his place. Some of them kind of drape, or—

00:09:52

Jerome

Guest

Mounted! They're all mounted.

00:09:56

Kathryn

Guest

They're all mounted.

00:09:57

Jerome

Guest

Let's be respectful!

00:09:58

Kathryn

Guest

Okay!

00:09:59

Jerome

Guest

Of your art!

00:10:00

Kathryn

Guest

[Laughs.] Okay.

00:10:01

John

Host

Jerome, may I—may I congratulate you, in this astronomy-adjacent conversation, for taking that beautiful, Carl Sagan cadence?

[Multiple people laugh.]

And, uh, bringing some of that Sagan energy to the—yeah! You—let the record show that I can see Jerome visibly on the teleconference, [stifles laughter] using his hands to literally bring down the energy. They're mounted!

[Kathryn laughs.]

00:10:26

Jesse

Host

Yeah. I mean, if listeners at home could see Jerome's enormous necktie right now, they would know how Carl Sagan-y he is.

[Kathryn laughs.]

00:10:34

John

Host

Well, it's a—it's a virtual necktie. Jerome—

00:10:37

Jerome

Guest

Well, I would call it a cravat, myself.

[Multiple people laugh.]

00:10:43

John

Host

Wow.

00:10:44

Jesse

Host

Who has the theatre background now?! [Laughs.]

00:10:47

John

Host

You have out-mensweared the menswear-y!

00:10:50

Kathryn

Guest

The—and should we talk about the footprints? So, Jerome also has—

00:10:54

John

Host

I don't—I don't know, I seem to recall that, uh—that I'm the judge. And I lead the conversation.

[Jesse laughs.]

00:11:00

Kathryn

Guest

Oh!

00:11:01

John

Host

But I'll allow it. Let's talk about "the footprint," whatever that may be. I can see I'm going to have no control over this situation.

00:11:09

Kathryn

Guest

[Laughs.] The—uh, Jerome, do you wanna talk about it?

00:11:13

John

Host

Yeah, we haven't heard from you, Jerome.

00:11:15

Jerome

Guest

Well, there are three footprints in one of the panels. I call them "panels" rather than "drops". To me it's more respectful. And, um—uh, on one of the panels, there are three footprints. Two—uh, when I say "footprints", they're shoe prints. And two are in black, and one is in white. They're kind of toward the center of the piece. And, uh, one of the things—along with asking Kathryn sign each of the panels—I wanted her to correct that one panel to remove the—the shoe prints. The three shoe prints.

00:12:07

John

Host

These are shoe prints—wait a minute. I thought that these were images of galactic majesty, inspired by photographs of the vast universe, as captured by the Hubble Telescope. Kathryn, are you saying you caught footprints in these photographs?

[Someone laughs quietly.]

Have you proved the existence of interstellar travelers?

00:12:26

Kathryn

Guest

They are space footprints. Um… yeah! Truly, I—I work on them on the ground. Um, I paint with a paintbrush on a stick.

00:12:36

John

Host

[Stifling laughter] Oh, okay.

00:12:37

Kathryn

Guest

Or—and spray paint. I lay them all out. And, um, walk all over the canvas! And—

00:12:43

John

Host

Oh, I see!

00:12:46

Kathryn

Guest

So my—a few of my special little size-eight—[laughs]—shoe prints made it onto the, uh, nebula. So I, um, happened to just leave them there, because I'm used to a very forgiving medium. Uh, in theatre, things are seen from very far away, and a shoe print is… It just disappears. And I thought there were gonna be—

00:13:10

John

Host

These are actual—actual shoe prints.

00:13:15

Kathryn

Guest

I stepped in the paint, and then I stepped on a nebula.

00:13:17

John

Host

Got it. Yep.

[Jesse bursts out laughing.]

00:13:18

Kathryn

Guest

And… I just missed it! You know—

00:13:21

Jesse

Host

[Laughing] The classic problem!

00:13:25

Kathryn

Guest

I missed it. I didn't, uh, fix it when I did it.

00:13:28

John

Host

Okay! So Jerome is not merely—is not merely seeking that you sign your work, but is also seeking damages for stepping all over your own work.

00:13:36

Kathryn

Guest

My argument is that the shoe prints are my signature. And that's where I would like to leave it.

00:13:43

John

Host

Wellll, I wish you would have left for me to come to that, uh, in my verdict, 'cause that is exactly what I was going to order.

[Quiet laughter from multiple people.]

But I think we have more to hear from Jerome, because my—my position may change!

00:13:56

Jesse

Host

Let's take a quick recess. We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

00:14:01

Sound Effect

Transition

[Three gavel bangs.]

00:14:03

Jesse

Promo

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00:14:29

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Promo

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00:16:05

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00:18:30

Sound Effect

Transition

[Three gavel bangs.]

00:18:33

John

Host

Jerome, you commissioned these, uh—these panels, these drops, these paintings of the heavens.

00:18:37

Jerome

Guest

Right.

00:18:38

John

Host

Which we're gonna take a look at. I believe we have evidence, and folks can go over to the Judge John Hodgman page at MaximumFun.org, and to our Instagram, @judgejohnhodgman to see the evidence. But before we look at the images, let's talk about what your desire was for them, and, uh—and the meaning behind the commission.

00:18:56

Jerome

Guest

Well, um, I have this metal building. It's 18 feet wide, 30 feet long. And the—the—

00:19:05

John

Host

Wow! You need all of that just to take an outdoors poop?

00:19:07

Jerome

Guest

Hey, let's not get personal.

[Multiple people laugh.]

00:19:11

Jesse

Host

Joel, what's that? About 540 square feet?

00:19:14

Joel

Guest

Exactly.

00:19:15

Jerome

Guest

540 is my number for it. And, uh, the peak of the roof is 12 foot high. So it's kinda one—

00:19:23

Jesse

Host

Thank you.

00:19:25

Jerome

Guest

—cathedral-ceiling, um, building that I insulated myself, and have it set up as my TARDIS. Not a physical TARDIS, but a TARDIS of the mind.

[Jesse laughs.]

00:19:42

John

Host

Okay.

00:19:44

Crosstalk

Crosstalk

John: Let's pause.

Jerome: And that's—

Jesse: [Laughing] The metaphors flying—flying thick and fast right now.

00:19:47

Jerome

Guest

That's my idea with—with these panels. The Hubble Telescope picture–inspired galaxies, nebula, um—and it's—when I walk in, and when I have guests in, it's to take you to—to new dimensions in mental space and, um—

00:20:15

John

Host

Mm-hm.

00:20:16

Jerome

Guest

—multi-dimensions.

00:20:19

John

Host

Got it. I'm gonna—let's just hold on "TARDIS of the mind" for a second. Because… I'm getting a very different mental picture.

[John stifles laughter, Kathryn giggles.]

When—when Kathryn described this as an outbuilding, obviously I—my—my mind immediately went to the toilet, specifically the outdoor composting toilet.

[Kathryn laughs.]

This is a major structure that you have. It is not a shed; it is a—it is a Meow Wolf–style experience, it sounds like.

00:20:45

Jerome

Guest

Yes. And—

00:20:46

Jesse

Host

John, just—just to be clear, your head is still in the toilet. My head is way back, like, five minutes ago in the mall food court with, uh, "paintbrush on a stick."

[John and Kathryn crack up.]

00:21:01

John

Host

Well, let's take a look at the evidence in this TARDIS of the mind. Uh, once again, all the evidence will be available on our Judge John Hodgman Instagram account, and our show page at MaximumFun.org.

Exhibit A. Jerome's Exhibit A. "This is my entry door to my TARDIS." So what—what I'm seeing here is a—a door that is painted black. Thank you, by the way. I was tired of that red one.

[Jesse or Jerome laughs.]

And it is surrounded by—[laughs]—it is surrounded by a corona of painted light.

00:21:31

Jerome

Guest

Well, it—it is a—you know, the opening of Doctor Who. Each episode is this spiraling… space.

00:21:41

John

Host

Yes.

00:21:42

Jerome

Guest

That draws you in. That's—that's what I was capturing.

00:21:46

John

Host

Oh, I see! Okay.

00:21:47

Jerome

Guest

With that entrance.

00:21:48

John

Host

Okay. So then you open this door, and you enter—

00:21:50

Jesse

Host

Wait, hold on, John! You're leaving out—you're leaving out a key piece about this door, [stifles laughter] which is: It appears to have been textured with, uh—with that kind of expanding foam insulation that comes out of a spray can.

00:22:03

John

Host

Wha—okay, good point!

00:22:05

Jerome

Guest

Yes. It is. And then that foam is then covered with an exterior caulk, and then painted on top of that.

00:22:17

Jesse

Host

Yeah. So he also caulked it up.

[One or both litigants laughs, John stifles laughter.]

00:22:19

John

Host

And is this your work, or Kathryn's work?

00:22:22

Jerome

Guest

[Stifling laughter] This is my work. My caulk.

00:22:25

John

Host

What planet are you on? Are you on Earth with us?

00:22:28

Jerome

Guest

I come and go.

[Jesse bursts out laughing.]

00:22:31

John

Host

[Laughing] Okay! What region—

00:22:32

Jesse

Host

[Laughing] Fair enough!

00:22:33

John

Host

What region of Earth do you—[stifles laughter]—do you live on currently? And where—and—and what—if this is indeed in our dimension, what region of Earth is this, uh, TARDIS of the mind dimensionally situated?

00:22:48

Jerome

Guest

New Albany, Indiana.

00:22:50

John

Host

New Albany, Indiana. Okay.

00:22:54

Jerome

Guest

One of the great remaining gems of small-town America.

00:23:00

John

Host

What do you mean?

00:23:01

Jerome

Guest

Well, population 36,000. And it's gorgeous. It's beautiful.

00:23:08

Crosstalk

Crosstalk

John: Oh—I'm—I'm sorry. I—I heard—

Jerome: It's, you know, executed so wonderfully.

00:23:11

John

Host

I heard "gym" as in G-Y-M; I didn't hear "gem."

[John stifles laughter, others laugh.]

I apologize. I was like—I thought there was some special YMCA there. I apologize.

00:23:20

Jerome

Guest

[Chuckling] Well, they do have a great YMCA, but not what I meant.

00:23:23

John

Host

Oh, okay! Well, then, let's leave it in! Shout-out—shout-out to the New Albany Y.

[Jerome laughs, John stifles laughter.]

Alright.

00:23:30

Jesse

Host

This is—this is, John, one of those small towns in America that I learned about from American Pickers, where everyone just has unlimited outbuildings.

00:23:39

John

Host

I guess so!

00:23:40

Jesse

Host

Just so many outbuildings. Yeah.

00:23:42

John

Host

And Jerome and Kathryn, just to be clear, you are friends, correct?

00:23:47

Kathryn

Guest

Yes. We—we met at a meditation group.

00:23:51

John

Host

Oh, okay! Um—and, uh, what kind of meditation did you do? David Lynch–style? Transcendental with cigarettes?

[Someone laughs.]

00:23:59

Kathryn

Guest

It's a Zen—Zen meditation group.

00:24:03

John

Host

Wonderful.

00:24:06

Kathryn

Guest

We sit for an hour, and then we chant, and then we read a kōan.

00:24:11

John

Host

Lovely! And do you—are you also a resident of New Albany, uh, Indiana, the gem of Indiana?

00:24:17

Kathryn

Guest

Jerome and I live about 15 minutes apart, but we live in different states. I'm right across the river—

00:24:23

John

Host

Yeah.

00:24:24

Kathryn

Guest

—in Louisville, Kentucky.

00:24:25

John

Host

Got it. Why—why make it simple? You obviously inhabit multiple planes of existence. I get it.

00:24:31

Kathryn

Guest

Mm-hm!

00:24:32

John

Host

Sometimes you're in Kentucky, sometimes you're in Indiana, it's impossible to tell!

[Kathryn laughs.]

Exhibit B. I quote, "In the back yard leading to the TARDIS is a—" We're not even in the TARDIS yet, Jerome?!

00:24:45

Jerome

Guest

No, we're still getting there! We're getting there.

00:24:48

John

Host

How many—how many exhibits are—?! C, Exhibit C, D… E, [laughs] F—

[Jerome chuckles.]

—G, H, I?!

[Jerome laughs.]

00:24:58

Kathryn

Guest

We brought a lot of evidence.

00:24:59

John

Host

J?! K?! L?! M?!

[Jerome laughs harder.]

And M—M—Exhibit M alone has five photos in it! This is an audio podcast!

[The litigants laugh.]

00:25:11

Jesse

Host

[Singing] One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve…

[Singing stops.]

00:25:17

John

Host

Alright. I'm gonna ask every—[stifles laughter]—everyone to pause the podcast for a moment. And, um, do whatever you need to do to open your third eye. So that as I can describe these things to you, you can travel with me into the world of… the—of Jerome, and the many universes that are contained within his outbuilding. I'm gonna do my best to get through as much of this as I can.

Alright. Did you all pause? Are you ready now? Is your third eye opened? Joel Mann? Third eye open?

00:25:47

Joel

Guest

Open.

00:25:48

John

Host

Good. Joel, you are gonna represent the listener to me, 'cause I know you can't see what I'm seeing.

00:25:53

Joel

Guest

Got it.

00:25:54

John

Host

"In the back yard leading to the TARDIS is a driftwood sculpture with a colony of Frolics. The Frolics share a common ancestor with Daleks."

They're villains from Doctor Who, Joel.

00:26:04

Joel

Guest

Who?

00:26:05

John

Host

Right. The Frolics, however, are "generous, fun-loving, free-spirited." Not like the Daleks at all. And these are—and did you make these? Are these all your work? These little driftwood—?

00:26:16

Jerome

Guest

These are all my work, yes.

00:26:17

John

Host

And the Frolics are your own invention, right?

00:26:20

Jerome

Guest

Oh! Well… I—I would say I discovered them.

00:26:25

John

Host

Right.

00:26:26

Jesse

Host

[Bursts out laughing.] Yeah.

00:26:27

John

Host

I look forward to hearing you mount that defense when the BBC sues you out of existence. Jerome, Exhibit C—

[Someone laughs.]

"This is the man cave on your right as you step in. The front divider panel is the first thing you see as you walk into the TARDIS." Here is a room full of… beautiful galactic imagery on the walls. As well as quite a few fairy lights, and, uh, also a wood stove! Uh, and a—and a nice, uh, flat-panel TV and some armchairs.

Is this your work, Kathryn? These, um—these starry nights?

00:26:58

Kathryn

Guest

Yes, yes. Yes it is. Indeed.

00:26:59

John

Host

Beautiful.

00:27:00

Kathryn

Guest

Thank you!

00:27:01

Jesse

Host

Yeah, they're really lovely.

00:27:02

Kathryn

Guest

Oh, thank you!

00:27:03

John

Host

I honestly did not imagine we would get to something relevant to our case as soon as Exhibit C.

[The litigants laugh.]

I am grateful for that. Uh, this is the one you may wanna look at, Joel, when you're going to Judge John Hodgman on Instagram. Exhibit C.

00:27:19

Joel

Guest

Okay.

00:27:20

John

Host

These are the paintings of the stars that Kathryn made. Kathryn, did you—

[Jesse laughs.]

—freehand these, or free-foot these? Or did you—are these based on actual Hubble photographs?

00:27:29

Kathryn

Guest

I did—uh, Jerome let me borrow a book of Hubble images, and so each one kind of has a source image. But, um, mostly I, uh—almost, like, tie-dyed. Like, dipped the fabric first, and sort of used the shape that emerged. It was, um, pretty, uh, give-and-take, emotionally, with, uh, seeing what presented—

00:27:56

John

Host

So "inspired by." "Inspired by."

00:27:59

Kathryn

Guest

It was—yes. Mm-hm. Inspired by images.

00:28:01

John

Host

As opposed to a—as opposed to a one-to-one imitation.

00:28:05

Kathryn

Guest

Sure.

00:28:06

John

Host

Yeah! That's what art is! Good for you.

00:28:08

Kathryn

Guest

Mm-hm!

00:28:09

John

Host

It's beautiful!

00:28:10

Kathryn

Guest

Thank you!

00:28:11

John

Host

Jerome let you borrow this book of Hubble Telescope photographs?

00:28:14

Kathryn

Guest

Yes, I got it—I got paint all over it.

[Laughing] I'm sorry.

00:28:17

John

Host

Oh, really? Interesting.

00:28:18

Jerome

Guest

Yeah, I don't mind those shoe prints.

[Kathryn laughs.]

00:28:22

John

Host

Bec—oh, because you—because—oh, this is a book that you own, Jerome. Is that right?

00:28:27

Jerome

Guest

Yes.

00:28:28

John

Host

I see. So you believe in ownership of material things.

00:28:31

Jerome

Guest

Oh, yeah.

00:28:32

John

Host

Huh! Funny. Interesting. Not very Zen. Whatever. Eh, Exhibit D—

[Someone laughs quietly.]

Uhhh, "You step into the TARDIS. To your left is the art corner, um, with the following elements."

[Jesse is cracking up.]

00:28:45

Jerome

Guest

W—on that point, I just would invite you to go to any Zen center, and at the end of the sitting, try and walk out with one of the cushions. See how non-possessive they are.

00:29:00

Jesse

Host

[Laughing] I just—

00:29:01

John

Host

You mean I can get a free cushion if I want outta this place?!

00:29:04

Jerome

Guest

If you can run fast enough, yes.

00:29:06

John

Host

[Laughing] Oh—

00:29:08

Jesse

Host

I just—John, before we get into what's depicted here in Exhibit D, I just wanna clarify for the at-home listener. Uh, who's not looking at the notes here. That with the exception of "art corner," all the proper nouns you're about to hear have their first letters capitalized. These are all official titles. They're not just descriptions.

00:29:31

John

Host

No, they're areas of the TARDIS!

00:29:33

Jesse

Host

Yeah. They're official titles. They could be commemorated with a plaque, for all we know.

00:29:37

John

Host

"As you step into the TARDIS, the first installation you see is," capital C, "Confronting Art Challenge."

00:29:46

Jesse

Host

[Laughing] The Confronting Art Challenge! Next on Survivor.

00:29:53

John

Host

Let me just set the stage here, for everyone who's listening. "To the left is the Tunnel of Lights." Capital T, capital L. "Together with various bolo ties." I think we're gonna get to those later.

00:30:04

Jesse

Host

[Laughing] Yeah!

00:30:05

John

Host

To the right is the, quote, capital L, "Literal Sacrifice sculpture, and the Sculpture of Pots, along with various bolo ties."

[Jesse bursts out laughing.]

And then, "Launching off from the art corner is the Vacuum of Space Bot." There's a lot to take in here, Jerome. And by the way—

00:30:21

Jesse

Host

[Stifling laughter] What does the—what does the Space Bot have against bolo ties?! That's what I wanna know!

00:30:26

Jerome

Guest

Well, the Vacuum of Space Bot started out as three defunct vacuum cleaners.

00:30:34

John

Host

Ah!

00:30:35

Jerome

Guest

And got transformed into a bot.

00:30:37

Kathryn

Guest

Isn't it a rocket ship?

00:30:39

Jerome

Guest

Well, it's launching itself into space.

00:30:42

John

Host

Now, let me give credit where credit is due here, Jerome. Because this is an amazing physical space that you have created. This is all your work, correct, Jerome?

00:30:52

Jerome

Guest

Correct.

00:30:53

John

Host

Yeah. And it is a—it is a multimedia found object collage… full of light, and color, and bolo ties… that is very, very difficult to explain with words. It is not, shall I say, grokkable, simply using linear language. Especially since you described four photos here, and you provided only three.

[Kathryn cracks up.]

That, I believe, is called the—the Challenge of Confronting Art.

00:31:26

Jesse

Host

Mm-hm.

00:31:27

Jerome

Guest

Well, I think if you scroll down a little, you'll see the bot.

00:31:30

John

Host

Ohhh, believe me, I'm scrolling, Jerome. I am scrolling.

[Jerome laughs.]

00:31:36

Jesse

Host

I—I wanna say here that while these installations have ridiculous names, and a homemade quality to them, they really are pretty remarkable. Like, they're really something to see.

00:31:47

John

Host

Obviously, we're in challenging times when it comes to being together in shared spaces and breathing on each other. But in better times in past, and we hope future, is this a place that you would share with members of the New Albany community? Or is this just a place for yourself to… unwind, uh, reconnect, and—and visit the stars?

00:32:06

Jerome

Guest

Well, it's also for, you know, people in my immediate circles. So, like, people from my online book club, and people from, uh, my Zen meditation group, and people from my men's group have joined me in this. But I'm not thinking in terms of opening it to the general public, no. Well, I think—I assume that after my death, it will be one of those, "Uh, we don't know what we found…"

[John and Kathryn crack up.]

"…but you gotta come see this" kind of things.

00:32:44

John

Host

Which is an incredible—you know, honestly, as someone who ponders death quite a bit myself, that's not—I never thought about a legacy as inspiring as that! As just a truly confounding thing you leave behind. For—for future generations to ponder and worry about.

I think it's a beautiful space, Jerome. I think it's fantastic.

00:33:06

Jesse

Host

Jerome, have you ever seen the Throne of the Third Heaven of the Nations' Millennium General Assembly? At, uh, the Smithsonian in Washington, DC?

00:33:16

Jerome

Guest

No, I've only seen it when it's in recess. In my own mind.

[Jesse and Kathryn laugh.]

00:33:24

John

Host

I think you just got got, Jesse.

[Jesse laughs.]

00:33:25

Jerome

Guest

I think in terms of… of the legacy, I'm thinking of this kind of as a Stonehenge of the mind.

00:33:36

John

Host

Right.

00:33:37

Jerome

Guest

Is my art corner.

00:33:38

Jesse

Host

I mention the Throne of the Third Heaven of the Nations' Millennium General Assembly because it is this amazing… installation. I mean, it is a throne, made of silver and gold tinfoil. That this man James Hampton built in—I think it's a two-car garage in Washington, DC, secretly, over the course of… like, 15 years in the fifties and sixties, that was only found upon his death. And was then moved to the Smithsonian. It's just one of the most breathtaking things I've ever seen in my life, and your space—you know. It's a little bit of that, [laughing] and maybe a little bit Pee-wee's Playhouse.

00:34:19

Jerome

Guest

But yes, you're right. It's that kind of outsider assembly art that inspires me. Yes.

00:34:27

John

Host

Yeah! I—I sense a little Gary Panter in there as well, Jesse Thorn. See, I know some things about art.

00:34:34

Jesse

Host

Mm-hm.

00:34:35

John

Host

Who are your—who are your inspirations, Jerome?

00:34:39

Jerome

Guest

Well, I don't know particular names. Just looking through books of outsider art.

00:34:44

John

Host

Mm. And your own mind.

00:34:47

Jerome

Guest

Oh—well, let's never leave that.

[Jesse and Kathryn laugh.]

00:34:50

John

Host

No, I agree. Let's never leave Jerome's mind.

[Kathryn laughs harder.]

I am ready to live in Jerome's mind forever and ever.

00:35:00

Jesse

Host

I think Jerome pretty much only leaves Jerome's mind to maybe cop a few new bolos.

[Jesse and Kathryn laugh.]

00:35:07

John

Host

Yeah. Let's talk about Exhibit H, Jerome. I'm skipping ahead a bit. "Starting in the"—and this—and I quote, "Starting in the art corner and spilling out into the workspace area… are my 280 bolo ties. My plan is for these to eventually be transmogrified into wall bolos," parentheses—[stifles laughter]—"(a brand new category I will be pioneering)," end parentheses. Okay.

[Stifles laughter.]

00:35:33

Jesse

Host

[Laughing] Yeah.

00:35:34

John

Host

Uh, before we move into wall bolos, congratulations. Two hundred and eighty bolo ties is a lot. I think that's… slightly more bolo ties than I had in my wardrobe in 1988, and I had quite a few.

00:35:46

Jesse

Host

Yeah. That's what they call a Lyle Lovett of bolo ties.

[John and Kathryn laugh.]

00:35:51

John

Host

And, uh—and you have these beautiful bolo ties, some of which also seem to be… constructed by you, perhaps? Jerome?

00:36:00

Jerome

Guest

Oh, they're all constructed by me.

00:36:02

John

Host

Ohhh, wow! Okay! They're gorgeous!

00:36:05

Jerome

Guest

I—I brought them to some art fairs, having in my mind to sell these. But everyone who came and liked them also said, "Well, if you caught me in the seventies…"

[Kathryn laughs, John snorts.]

"…I—I might buy it." But no one—I don't wear bolo ties anymore, no one I know.

00:36:28

John

Host

Yeah.

00:36:29

Jerome

Guest

My parents don't. And so that's my idea for wall bolos, to turn these into something that someone who liked the look could mount on a wall, rather than wearing.

00:36:42

John

Host

Sure. Well, look. They're absolutely lovely, Jerome. And I'll tell you what. If this were 1988—

[Kathryn laughs.]

—I definitely would buy a wall full of bolo ties.

00:36:53

Jesse

Host

Yeah.

00:36:54

John

Host

But they're too special to buy! I think they look good arranged here, in your TARDIS. They're very special, though!

00:37:01

Jesse

Host

Yeah, we're gonna have to wait 'til you die, and transfer 'em to the Smithsonian.

[Kathryn laughs.]

00:37:04

Jerome

Guest

Yeah, I think that might be the case, yes.

00:37:07

John

Host

I mean, what are—what are some of the materials you're using? I'm looking at this array here in Exhibit H. 'Cause Exhibit I—[stifles laughter]—is, uh—is spill-over bolo ties, that work—that go into the workspace. So I don't think we need an ex—separate exhibit moment for that.

00:37:22

Jerome

Guest

Well, the materials are, um… stones, uh, usually as the base. Some kind of flat stone. And then a more colorful, rounded stone. Um, a stone made out of beads. And then wire work. And the weights at the end of the cords, I made out of copper or aluminum pipe that I, you know, shaped and decorated.

00:38:01

John

Host

Gorgeous.

00:38:02

Jesse

Host

Yeah. If the—if our listener is imagining a more traditional bolo tie, like, think of them as being a kind of—the aesthetic is closer to, like, a late eighties, 1990, uh, post-modern jewelry kind of thing. Although I'm—I'm sure—[laughs]—I—I say that only for the convenience of our listeners to imagine them, not—not to describe, uh, what is in our litigant's mind. [Laughing] I think that's indescribable.

[Kathryn chuckles.]

00:38:32

John

Host

I mean, you know… Did you really want to sell these Or—or no?

00:38:38

Jerome

Guest

I—I did want to sell them. But that was just on my side. Um, the world was not ready or willing to buy them.

00:38:49

John

Host

Mm-hm. Kay. You're still open to some offers.

00:38:53

Jerome

Guest

I am! Sure.

00:38:55

John

Host

Alright. Gotcha.

00:38:56

Jesse

Host

If Lyle Lovett rolled through right now, what would it take to take these bolo ties home? One, and all. I want two prices. One price for just one, and a price for all of them. Lyle Lovett's here. He's got all that Lovett money. What are we talking about?

00:39:10

Jerome

Guest

He—he could have 'em all for $5,000.

[John laughs.]

00:39:13

Jesse

Host

Five thousand. That's a very fair price. That strikes me as very fair.

00:39:17

John

Host

Whew. And there are 280 of 'em?

00:39:20

Jerome

Guest

Two hundred and eighty.

00:39:22

John

Host

Can you do that math, [stifling laughter] anybody?

[Jerome chuckles.]

00:39:24

Crosstalk

Crosstalk

John: What's that per bolo?

Jesse: I mean, you know, fifteen, twenty dollars.

00:39:26

John

Host

Fifteen, twenty dollars?

00:39:27

Jesse

Host

And that's a bargain for Lovett!

00:39:29

John

Host

What about this one with the blue, in the lower righthand corner? This blue… semi-precious gemstone or whatever it is? What kind of stone is that? This polished, bright blue stone?

00:39:39

Jerome

Guest

It is polished, yeah. It's polished and… I—I think that might be, um, a lapis lazuli, polished.

00:39:49

John

Host

Yeah. Yeah.

00:39:50

Jerome

Guest

And you know, if they're going individually, I'd say more like, um… uh, that would be, like, $80.

[Beat.]

00:40:02

John

Host

What?

[Beat.]

Okay. Alright!

00:40:05

Jesse

Host

Yeah!

00:40:07

John

Host

Joel M—Joel Mann—Joel Mann, I just sent a picture of this one to you. I was thinking about getting it for you as a gift. But now that's 80  bucks… That's money that I could be donating to WERU.org.

00:40:17

Joel

Guest

Wow, that's nice!

00:40:18

John

Host

Yeah. Alright.

00:40:19

Joel

Guest

Beautiful.

00:40:20

Jerome

Guest

Well, you know, if you get the whole package, it's more like $20 apiece!

00:40:25

John

Host

You're right. [Stifling laughter] The bargain, really, here, is buying $5,000 worth of bolo ties.

[Kathryn laughs.]

Ah—hey. Look. Jerome? I'm—I'm not an American Picker. I'm not one of these guys who's gonna roll into town and try to take you for a ride on all the stuff you have in your outbuilding. Get it for cheap, 'cause I'm gonna resell it at my antique store or whatever. I'll—

00:40:47

Jesse

Host

[Laughing] So dudes can hang it in their man cave. Next to their oil and gas collectible!

00:40:55

John

Host

Put a circle around that lapis lazuli one. I'm thinking about it as a gift for Joel Mann here in Maine. Would you do… Would you do $75?

00:41:04

Jerome

Guest

I—I'm gonna stick with 80. It's 80.

[Jesse cracks up.]

00:41:07

John

Host

[Stifling laughter] Whoa.

[Someone claps.]

Alright. You know what, I'll think it over and—

00:41:10

Jesse

Host

You know John doesn't have Lovett money!

[Kathryn laughs.]

00:41:14

John

Host

Alright—

00:41:15

Jerome

Guest

Yeah, but he's only going for one!

00:41:17

John

Host

Okay. Uh, I think—I think I've got a lot to think about. I think I'm almost ready to go into my TARDIS and make my verdict. But let's try to—try to land this, uh, Time And, uh, And Relative Dimensions In Space vehicle back on Earth for a moment, and get back to the case.

Jerome, Kathryn has said she does not feel like she wants to sign her work. She feels that her footprints on the stars is essentially her mark upon the universe that is contained within your outbuilding. You do not accept this. Why is it important to you that she sign her beautiful work?

00:41:51

Jerome

Guest

Well… she only came up with the idea that the shoe print would be her signature after I asked her to correct the shoe prints. And also asked her to sign each panel. This is only one panel, and this—the shoe prints are kinda in the middle, not on a corner.

00:42:13

John

Host

And you don't like the shoe prints. You want her to fix them, right?

00:42:17

Jerome

Guest

Well, I would like it fixed.

00:42:19

John

Host

Mm-hm.

00:42:20

Jerome

Guest

And also, you know, if she had, from the outset, said, "The way I'm going to sign these panels is with a shoe print in each corner," you know, on one corner of each of the panels, I would've gone with that! But that's not how it went. This was something she thought of only after I said, "Correct the shoe prints."

00:42:46

John

Host

Mm-hm.

00:42:47

Jerome

Guest

And as far as that being an okay signature, you know, when I go to—I go to the bank. I'm gonna deposit a check in my account. And they say, "Well, you need to sign the back," and I say, "Hold on," take off one of my shoes, ink it up, and stamp the back… They're not gonna accept that!

00:43:09

John

Host

I don't know; that feels like a pretty Jerome thing to do, honestly.

00:43:12

Jerome

Guest

Yeah, but the bank wouldn't go for it, it what I'm saying.

[Jesse laughs.]

And you know, it's one thing, she doesn't sign her theatre art. I understand that. But this is a private commission I made to her, for my private space.

00:43:29

John

Host

Couple of quick questions. Did you pay her?

00:43:31

Jerome

Guest

Yes.

00:43:32

John

Host

Okay. Uh, you paid her… Earth money? Regular old Earth money?

00:43:37

Jerome

Guest

Yes. Earth—Earth money, yeah.

00:43:39

John

Host

Okay. Alright.

00:43:40

Jerome

Guest

I'll leave it to her to say how much if she wants.

00:43:42

John

Host

No, it's not—it's not important. I hope you didn't pay her in bolo ties.

[Multiple people laugh or stifle laughter.]

00:43:47

Jerome

Guest

I—she wouldn't go for that!

00:43:48

Crosstalk

Crosstalk

John: [Stifling laughter] I know.

Jerome: [Inaudible.] I tried, and she wouldn't—

Jesse: Those are worth 80 bucks apiece! That's as good as cash!

John: I—I know—I know. I know.

00:43:54

Jerome

Guest

She wouldn't go for it.

00:43:55

Jesse

Host

Take those to the bank; they'll cash 'em right away!

00:43:57

John

Host

Hottest new cryptocurrency around. Jerome's bolo ties.

00:44:02

Jesse

Host

[Stifling laughter] Bring your bolos down to the bureau de change!

00:44:06

Kathryn

Guest

Can I ask a question?

00:44:08

John

Host

Yeah, sure!

00:44:09

Kathryn

Guest

To Jerome? Do you sign your work?

[Pause.]

00:44:12

Jerome

Guest

Um, my bigger work, yes. My—the Frolics are signed, yes.

00:44:18

Kathryn

Guest

Is the Vacuum of Space Bot signed?

[Someone snorts.]

00:44:21

Jerome

Guest

Um, no. But if someone wanted to buy it from me, I would sign it.

00:44:27

John

Host

How much are you charging for the Vacuum of Space Bot?

00:44:29

Jerome

Guest

Oh, that is, um, 350.

00:44:33

Jesse

Host

That's nothing—that's nothing to Lyle Lovett. This guy passes out three—he's got that old country money!

[Kathryn cracks up.]

00:44:41

John

Host

Alright. Do you want her to sign it because she's your friend, and you want her to acknowledge her participation in this huge art project you have going on? Or do you want her to sign it because you think it might be valuable someday, and you might—some American Picker might come through and be like, "Sorry, I don't know the provenance of this, uh, Hubble—Hubble painting. I'm—I can only give you $7 for it." But if it were signed, "Kathryn," he would be like, "Oh, okay. Yeah. I'll take this for $5,000." What's going on here?

00:45:10

Jerome

Guest

Well, I want 'em signed because she is my friend. She's a wonderful artist. And these are wonderful pieces of art. They're not a theatre set.

00:45:24

John

Host

Mm-hm.

00:45:25

Jerome

Guest

They are pieces of art I commissioned, she executed.

00:45:29

John

Host

Got it. Okay. I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision. I'm gonna go into my personal favorite TARDIS control room, the wood-paneled one that Tom Baker, the Fourth Doctor, traveled around in for a while. Uh, and I will mull on this for a moment, and then I will come back to your reality and render my decision.

00:45:45

Sound Effect

Sound Effect

[As Jesse speaks below: Door opens, chairs scrape on the floor, footsteps.]

00:45:46

Jesse

Host

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

00:45:51

Sound Effect

Sound Effect

[Door shuts.]

00:45:52

Jesse

Host

Jerome, how are you feeling about your chances in this case?

00:45:54

Jerome

Guest

Oh, I'm loving it, I'm loving it!

[Jesse and Kathryn laugh.]

00:45:58

Crosstalk

Crosstalk

Jesse: [Laughing] Yeah, well, now you got that Lovett dough, you're not sweating it anymore!

[Kathryn laughs.]

Jerome: Yeah, it's—it's cl—it—it's clear in my mind! How it's gonna go.

00:46:05

Jesse

Host

[Laughs.] Jerome, let's say Lovett walks up to you right now; he wants to buy those panels. What are you charging him for 'em?

00:46:12

Jerome

Guest

Oh, they're not going. That's—that's not a sell item.

00:46:14

Jesse

Host

Yeah. Yeah. Those—[chuckling] awww.

00:46:18

Jerome

Guest

He can talk to my estate once I'm gone.

00:46:21

Jesse

Host

[Laughs.] Kathryn made the, "Oh, my—oh, my dear heart" gesture. As he said that.

[Kathryn laughs.]

Kathryn, how are you feeling about your chances?

00:46:30

Kathryn

Guest

Uh, I think, um… that I'm definitely gonna win this case! I mean, of course. That—nobody can make me do anything I don't wanna do. [Laughs.] I'm the artist.

[She and Jesse laugh.]

I don't even—honestly, I don't even sign—I'm not even that great about signing my personal work. Like—[sighs]. I just don't—I don't know. But I guess if—if it's ordered that I—I have to, then I certainly will. But, um… You know. It's, uh—it's… I don't—I don't know that there're gonna be any collectors out there that are gonna be searching for my… super valuable work. It's not my aspiration to be that guy, anyway.

00:47:16

Jesse

Host

Well, this—we'll see what happens when Jerome dies and they find that garage, you know?

00:47:20

Kathryn

Guest

Oh, yeah.

00:47:21

Jesse

Host

Once it's headed to the Smithsonian, anything goes.

00:47:24

Kathryn

Guest

Sure. I'm honestly just proud to be a collaborator in this—in this amazing… work of art that Jerome did, really.

00:47:32

Jesse

Host

Kathryn, if it weren't such a wonderful opportunity for… sophistry, and an opportunity for you to claim that it's your signature, would you repair the footprints?

00:47:46

Kathryn

Guest

I would. Um, if forced. But I would—[laughs]—ah, you've seen the space. Do you really think anybody's gonna be looking at a shoe print in there? Honestly! Oh—[laughs]—Jerome is pointing to himself.

[Jesse laughs.]

It's—it's, uh—it's bothering Jerome. If he really wants me to fix it, I will, but, um… only if the judge orders it.

00:48:08

Jesse

Host

Jerome, what are you watching on this television in here, anyway? [Laughs.] You just hanging out watching This Is Us or whatever?

[Kathryn and Jesse laugh.]

00:48:12

Jerome

Guest

Well, you know, I have a—a set of Rodgers and Hammerstein musicals. I have, you know—

00:48:21

Jesse

Host

Yeah.

00:48:22

Jerome

Guest

—the, um, Wooster and Jeeves BBC series. You know.

00:48:27

Jesse

Host

Yeah. Those are really good. Do you find that the quality of the guest actors on that really varies wildly? Like, sometimes you'll be like, "This person's fantastic." And sometimes you're like, "That's supposed to be an American accent?"

00:48:40

Jerome

Guest

No, I don't notice that!

00:48:41

Jesse

Host

Oh, okay. That's kinda how I felt. Obviously—

00:48:43

Jerome

Guest

I'm—I'm just always focused on Wooster and Jeeves, that's it.

00:48:47

Crosstalk

Crosstalk

Jesse: They're—they're perfect. No complaints there.

Jerome: That's my—that's my world.

00:48:49

Jesse

Host

They're perfect. As good as it gets. Well, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

00:48:58

Sound Effect

Transition

[Three gavel bangs.]

00:49:00

Promo

Clip

Music: Upbeat, brassy music.

Annabelle Gurwitch: Hi! I’m Annabelle Gurwitch

Laura House: And I’m Laura House.

Annabelle: And we’re the hosts of Tiny Victories.

Caller 1: My tiny victory is that I sewed that button back on the day after it broke.

Annabelle: We talk about that little thing that you did that’s a big deal to you but nobody else cares. Did you get that Guggenheim Genius Award?

Laura: We don’t wanna hear from you! 

Annabelle: We want little, bitty, tiny victories!

Caller 2: My tiny victory is a tattoo that I added onto this past weekend.

Laura: Let’s talk about it!

Caller 3: My victory is that I’m one year cancer free. But my tiny victory is that I took all of the cushions off the couch, pounded them out, put them back, and it looks so great.

Laura: So, if you’re like us and you wanna celebrate the tiny achievements of ordinary people, listen to Tiny Victories.

Annabelle: It’s on every Monday on Maximum Fun.

[Music fades out.]

00:49:49

Sound Effect

Transition

[Three gavel bangs.]

00:49:49

Jesse

Promo

Judge Hodgman, we're taking a quick break from "Hubble Jeopardy," and we've got something very big of interest to Judge John Hodgman listeners. Something ENORMOUS! Something monumental.

00:50:03

John

Promo

That's right. Jesse Thorn, the London Podcast Festival is returning both virtually and in person in London. We will be joining virtually. And we'll have a live Judge John Hodgman online streaming event this Thursday, September 9th.

Now, listen. This is an international affair. So you can't just give one time! This is happening at 12:30 Pacific, 3:30 PM Eastern, and 8:30 PM British Summer Time, and that's all the same time!

Tickets and more info are at KingsPlace.co.uk/londonpodfest. And check out the London Podcast Festival in general! It—you know, we had the great pleasure of going there a couple years in a row in person. Hope to return in person sometime in the not-too-distant future. Thrilled to be taking part virtually at this point.

But there's so much—there are so many incredibly talented, funny, interesting podcast people in the UK, who meet up at Kings Place in person and virtually, every year. And so thrilled to have been introduced to so many of them, and to be a part of this great festival. So check it out. That's KingsPlace.co.uk/londonpodfest.

00:51:15

Jesse

Promo

Lot of Maximum Fun shows there this year! FANTI is gonna be there, Beef And Dairy Network making a return appearance.

00:51:17

John

Promo

Yes. Yes.

00:51:19

Jesse

Promo

I will say—when we saw the live Beef And Dairy show at the London Podcast Festival—

00:51:25

John

Promo

[Raspberry exhale.] Yeah.

00:51:28

Jesse

Promo

I have never seen a more extraordinary live podcast performance than Ben Partridge, host of Beef And Dairy, in a tuxedo—

00:51:36

John

Promo

Yeah.

00:51:37

Jesse

Promo

[Laughing]—with—with live music and song—

00:51:40

John

Promo

Yeah.

00:51:41

Jesse

Promo

[Laughing] And—and a—and a—

[Stifles laughter.]

—I'm gonna say eight-minute segment where he just went through the audience, pointing a microphone at them, and every single person—not one exception; no one tried to be cute; no one ruined the show—every single person in whose face he put a microphone said, "Rich beef sausages."

[John and Jesse laugh.]

So, yeah! Check out the London Podcast Festival. You don't have to live in London, England! It's available all over the world! Live streaming. And of course places like the London Podcast Festival have been really hurt by the past year and a half, so, uh, it makes a big impact to check in and buy a ticket, and watch something online. And, uh, there may even be in-person attendance in London!

So! Go to KingsPlace.co.uk/londonpodfest, and, uh, grab some tickets for some virtual shows, no matter where you live!

00:52:40

John

Promo

And Jesse Thorn, what's going on with you?

00:52:42

Jesse

Promo

Well, I continue to host two other great podcasts. Well, podcasts that I think are great. Uh, Bullseye—

00:52:47

John

Promo

Hey. Hey, hey! Hey, buddy. Wait a minute. I know they're great. And I know the world knows they're great, except for the few people who haven't checked 'em out yet. So this message is going out to you. Bullseye and Jordan, Jesse, Go! Tell me about 'em!

00:53:03

Jesse

Promo

Okay. On Bullseye this week, Kamasi Washington, the, uh… amazing jazz saxophonist, and the coolest guy ever, uh… yeah. Just one of the great—one of the great dudes who's ever been on Bullseye.

And of course, the legendary chef, uh, and food… evangelist, Alice Waters! Um—

00:53:26

John

Promo

Wow.

00:53:27

Jesse

Promo

Two episodes of Bullseye this week. So, uh, go subscribe to Bullseye in your favorite podcast app. And then, um, over on Jordan, Jesse, Go!, my comedy show, there's, uh—a lot of swearing, mostly about Wario! That's the evil Mario.

00:53:42

John

Promo

Sure.

00:53:43

Jesse

Promo

Uh, from Super Mario Brothers. Wario.

00:53:45

John

Promo

Just like you and I are the evil Judge John Hodgman and evil Jesse Thorn, who took over this podcast when we grew our beards.

00:53:51

Jesse

Promo

Yeah. Yeah. Talking about evil—evil Mario.

00:53:54

John

Promo

Evil Wario.

00:53:55

Jesse

Promo

Wario.

00:53:56

John

Promo

Turn the M upside-down. What do you get? Wario. …I'll check it out.

00:54:00

Jesse

Promo

Yeah. Wario.

00:54:01

John

Promo

I love Wario. I love saxophonists. I'll check out both Bullseye and Jordan, Jesse, Go! this week. And I challenge each and every one of you to do the same!

00:54:08

Jesse

Promo

Let's get back to the case.

00:54:09

Sound Effect

Transition

[Three gavel bangs.]

00:54:11

Sound Effect

Sound Effect

[As Jesse speaks below: Door opens, chairs scrape, footsteps.]

00:54:12

Jesse

Host

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

00:54:20

Sound Effect

Sound Effect

[Door shuts.]

00:54:21

John

Host

Look, I've been a Whovian for a long time. I love Doctor Who. Anybody references the TARDIS is gonna be a friend of mine. It is very, very rare that I have encountered… a Time Lord. Don't think I've met many of them. And by "Time Lord," I mean, I'm talking about a Gallifreyan. A time-traveling agent of chaos that… slips—slips between dimensions, and disrupts everybody's sense of what is real and what is not real. Much like all of the various Doctors Who.

But I'm gonna—I'm feeling—like, I know that you are a—you are a—a human of Earth, Jerome. I know that you're not a space-traveling, time-traveling alien. I know this building is—is an outbuilding in New Albany, Indiana. And it is not a portal through time and space, despite the beautiful—uh, the beautiful and evocative portraits of space that Kathryn has provided for you. But there is something very destabilizing about talking to you.

[Someone laughs very quietly.]

Because just listening to you say—[stifles laughter]—I just thought to myself when Jesse—when I heard Jesse ask you, "What—what do you watch on TV?" and you're like, "Rodgers and Hammerstein musicals. Oh, and Wooster and Jeeves," I'm just like…

[Kathryn laughs.]

Everything that Jerome says is a complete 180-degree surprise… that automatically just becomes the most unsurprising thing about him.

[Kathryn and Jesse and/or Jerome laugh, John stifles laughter.]

00:55:47

John

Host

Like, it's just—like, "Oh, right, of cour—!" Like, "What?! Oh, yeah, of course. Of course." This guy makes driftwood—driftwood alternate universe Daleks that are fun… and signs them, even though they're not his IP. And also—

[Jesse and Kathryn laugh.]

—is rocking musicals. He's a—he is a—he is a—a Zen, uh, meditator, uh, who—[stifling laughter]—who nonetheless puts a tremendous amount of material value on these bolo ties.

[Kathryn and Jesse laugh.]

And—[stifles laughter]—and unlike my very, very, very—you know. I won't even say ninth grade. Like, seventh-and-a-half grade understanding of both, uh, large and small vehicles and Buddhism, there's a lot of rigidity! [Stifles laughter.] In—in Jerome's point of view regarding these… tapestries, these drops, these paintings! That Kathryn made. They are interpretations of the cosmos! That now bear not the fingerprints but the footprints of their creator.

This is what religions are based on! Total inconsequential mistakes in the landscape that we ascribe special meaning to. The special authorship of some unknown creator. Those footprints… are the best signature you could ever have! And I remain angry at you, Kathryn, for stealing that from me.

[Kathryn laughs, John stifles laughter.]

00:57:17

John

Host

Stealing that idea from me, even though you obviously had it before I did. Long before I could ever reach this verdict. That is—[stifles laughter]—the idea that this is something that Kathryn needs to repair in the painting that she made for you—I mean, hh—you live in a TARDIS, dude! Can you go with the flow a little bit?

[Kathryn cracks up.]

Just, like, bend like a reed in the wind for a second here? You are creating an installation of wild, beautiful chaos! And you're, like, looking at the footprints of your friend, going, "She needs to come in here and fix it. And by the way, why don't you sign your darn artwork? Case I need to sell it someday!"

Kathryn is right. I can't make her do that! She's the artist! Tough. You don't buy a signature when you buy—when you commission artwork; you buy the artwork. And she has signed it in her own way. And let the record of this podcast show any future American Pickers… that this is a certificate of authenticity. I have photos that I am looking at right now. Of Kathryn not only painting these drop cloths, but stepping all over them!

[Stifles laughter.]

I'm sure a forensic photography expert could probably match these footprints to the ones that are on Jerome's wall. And while I am not an expert in the field of cosmic drop cloths, we here at the roadshow say these are absolutely authentic. And don't let anyone take them off you, Jerome, for anything less than their appraised value of $5,000. Roughly the value of 280 bolo ties.

[Kathryn laughs.]

00:58:58

John

Host

Now. Before I go… what if we do the lapis lazuli bolo tie, and there's one to its left that kinda looks like a tiger's eye bolo tie? What if we do the pair of 'em for 150 bucks. Would you do that for me?

00:59:14

Jerome

Guest

A hundred and sixty.

[Kathryn laughs quietly.]

00:59:15

John

Host

No, you're not giving me anything here. You have to understand, I'm looking at my profit margin.

00:59:20

Jesse

Host

That's not how negotiating works. Yeah.

[Kathryn laughs harder.]

00:59:22

John

Host

You wanted 80 for—80 for one. Five thousand for—[stifles laughter]—for 280. $80 for one. You wouldn't take—you wouldn't take 75 for one. I'm offering you—I'm offering you 155 for the both. That's five dollars off for me.

00:59:39

Jerome

Guest

Okay! Alright.

00:59:40

John

Host

Okay, we—? We have a deal with that?

00:59:41

Jerome

Guest

Okay.

00:59:42

John

Host

Fantastic.

00:59:43

Jerome

Guest

Yeah!

00:59:44

John

Host

Guess what, Joel?

[Beat.]

00:59:45

Joel

Guest

I'm getting a bolo tie.

00:59:46

John

Host

You're getting a bolo tie!

[Kathryn laughs.]

And guess what, Lyle Lovett?

[Jesse laughs.]

Lyle Lovett, if you're listening, you're getting a bolo tie!

[Joel or Jerome chuckles.]

You came to my event in Austin—

00:59:57

Jesse

Host

"If you're listening"?

00:59:58

John

Host

Yeah, he came to my—

00:59:59

Jesse

Host

Given that you're listening!

[Kathryn chuckles.]

01:00:01

John

Host

One of the sweet—have you—have you interviewed Lyle Lovett on Bullseye, Jesse Thorn?

01:00:06

Jesse

Host

No, I'd love to interview Lyle Lovett. And we wouldn't just talk about bolo—a lot of people think that if Lyle Lovett came on my NPR show Bullseye, we'd just talk bolos, but we'd probably talk about music and stuff, too!

01:00:16

John

Host

Lyle Lovett, as—as you may know from my book, uh, Medallion Status: True Stories from Secret Rooms, is the human locus of one of the most intense cosmic coincidences I've ever experienced, and I am sending him that bolo tie. I'm sending you a bolo tie—[stifles laughter]—you get a bolo tie, you get a bolo tie, no one else gets a bolo tie.

[Someone laughs quietly.]

This is the sound of a gavel.

01:00:35

Clip

Clip

Dalek (Doctor Who): EX-TER-MIN-ATE!

01:00:38

John

Host

Judge John Hodgman rules; that is all.

01:00:40

Sound Effect

Sound Effect

[As Jesse speaks below: Door opens, chairs scrape, footsteps.]

01:00:41

Jesse

Host

[Stifles laughter.] Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

01:00:49

Sound Effect

Sound Effect

[Door shuts.]

01:00:50

Jesse

Host

Jerome, you leave this case… uh, a poorer but richer man. How are you feeling?

01:00:56

Jerome

Guest

[Laughs.] Uh, yeah, kinda poorly!

[Kathryn and Jesse laugh.]

01:01:03

Jesse

Host

Wow, somebody really stole some cushions from your Zen center, huh?

[Kathryn laughs.]

01:01:06

Jerome

Guest

They did, man! They came in, and they left footprints, and—and just got off with the goods!

[Kathryn laughs.]

01:01:14

Jesse

Host

Kathryn, how are you feeling?

01:01:15

Kathryn

Guest

Uh, I'm ecstatic.

01:01:18

Jesse

Host

Mm-hm.

01:01:19

Kathryn

Guest

[Laughs.] I love Jerome so much. Um, I'm—I'm happy to be right, though. In this case. [Laughs.]

01:01:28

Jesse

Host

You know what it's—you know what it says in the, uh, Throne of the Third Heaven of the Nations' Millennium General Assembly? It's this huge, spectacular tableau. An altar surrounded by—um, surrounded by kind of tables and things like that. And in—in big letters, it says, "Fear not."

And I think you guys have created a space that is similar in its awesomeness. And by that I mean its ability to create awe. So congratulations to both of you. It's a—it's an amazing thing that you—the two of you have created as artistic collaborators.

01:02:07

John

Host

May I echo that as well, and then just very quickly, a—a quick question for Jerome before we go. Joe Byrd & The Field Hippies or Ultimate Spinach?

01:02:16

Jerome

Guest

Only in E minor.

01:02:20

Jesse

Host

Thanks, Jerome.

01:02:21

John

Host

I gotta go take a walk. I don't know what's happening.

[Jesse and multiple others laugh.]

I gotta go. Just finish the rest without me, Jesse.

[Kathryn laughs.]

Do Swift Justice without me—

01:02:21

Jesse

Host

Kathryn—

01:02:32

John

Host

—I'm walking around the radio station for a while.

[Kathryn laughs.]

01:02:35

Jesse

Host

Kathryn, uh, Jerome, uh, [laughing] have fun on your journey through the many dimensions.

[Stifles laughter.]

And thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

01:02:45

Sound Effect

Transition

[Three gavel bangs.]

01:02:48

Jesse

Host

Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books. In just a second we'll dispense some Swift Justice. First, our thanks to Elyse O’Neill for naming this week's episode, "Hubble Jeopardy." You can name a future episode! Like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We put out calls for submissions there.

You can follow us on Twitter at @JesseThorn and @hodgman. Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman Tweets #JJHo, and check out the Maximum Fun subreddit to discuss this episode. We're on Instagram at @judgejohnhodgman. Make sure to follow us there for evidence and other fun stuff.

Our engineer in Maine is Joel Mann, Program and Operations Manager at WERU Community Radio in Orland, Maine. You can listen to WERU at WERU.org. Joel is also on Instagram. His handle is @themainemann, M-A-I-N-E-M-A-N-N.

This week's episode also recorded by Kathryn's husband Joel. This episode edited by Valerie Moffat, and our producer is Jennifer Marmor.

01:03:56

Jesse

Host

Now, let's get to Swift Justice! Where we answer your small disputes with a quick judgment. Benjamin asks:

"My partner calls the remote control 'the machine.' I contend it's not a machine. What say you, Judge Hodgman?"

01:04:12

John

Host

[Sighs deeply.] Only in E minor.

01:04:15

Sound Effect

Sound Effect

[Three gavel bangs.]

01:04:17

Jesse

Host

[Cracks up.]

That's it for this week's episode. Submit your cases at MaximumFun.org/jjho, or email hodgman@maximumfun.org.

That's serious business, folks! We need your cases! MaximumFun.org/jjho, or email hodgman@maximumfun.org. Put your phone number in there so, uh, Jen can give you a call if we—if we wanna talk to you about your case. Uh, tell us if you've got home recording equipment of any kind, a mic on your computer, that kind of thing.

Uh, no case is too small—

01:04:54

John

Host

Clearly. Clearly. Obviously no case is too sm—obviously.

01:04:58

Jesse

Host

Yeah. We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

01:05:01

Sound Effect

Transition

[Three gavel bangs.]

01:05:03

Music

Transition

A cheerful ukulele chord.

01:05:04

Speaker 1

Guest

MaximumFun.org.

01:05:06

Speaker 2

Guest

Comedy and culture.

01:05:07

Speaker 3

Guest

Artist owned—

01:05:08

Speaker 4

Guest

—audience supported.