TRANSCRIPT Judge John Hodgman Ep. 527: The Full Micky

00:00:00

Sound Effect

Transition

[Three gavel bangs.]

00:00:02

Jesse Thorn

Host

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorn. We're in chambers this week, clearing the docket. And with me, as always… is the Maine man—

00:00:14

John Hodgman

Host

Whuh—!

00:00:15

Jesse

Host

—with one N at the end.

00:00:16

John

Host

[Stifles laughter.] Ohhh.

00:00:17

Jesse

Host

Judge John Hodgman. [Laughs quietly.]

00:00:18

John

Host

I thought you were introducing Joel Mann! I thought you were just—

00:00:21

Jesse

Host

No, he's the Maine Mann with two Ns at the end!

00:00:24

John

Host

Maine Mann Double-N.

00:00:25

Jesse

Host

Yeah.

00:00:26

John

Host

[Singing] J-O-E-L M-A-Double-N! Joel Maaann!

[Speaking] On the air at WERU in East Orland, Maine. Listener supported, volunteer powered, a voice of many voices, broadcasting from our solar powered studios in East Orland. Thanks for leaving this pledge drive material on the table, Joel. How are you?

00:00:43

Joel Mann

Guest

Very good.

00:00:44

John

Host

Joel.

00:00:45

Joel

Guest

John.

00:00:46

John

Host

Jesse.

00:00:47

Jesse

Host

John.

00:00:48

John

Host

Jennifer.

00:00:49

Jennifer Marmor

Producer

John.

00:00:50

John

Host

I thought we had a real problem. I thought we had a real problem on the Judge John Hodgman podcast, Jesse. You know why?

00:00:55

Jesse

Host

Why?

00:00:56

John

Host

No disputes. No disputes were coming in.

00:00:57

Jesse

Host

Oh my gosh. I mean, this whole show runs on disputes, John!

00:01:01

John

Host

That's—[enunciating emphatically] it's the en-gine of-the show.

Look, there—

00:01:05

Jesse

Host

Yeah! Like, it's—it's like a car? It's like a—the engine of a car… is an engine. The engine of this show is disputes.

00:01:13

John

Host

Yeah! There are a lot of podcasts you go to, where four people whose names start with J might be talking to each other. About nothing.

00:01:20

Jesse

Host

Right.

00:01:21

John

Host

Rollicking through a chat. But if you want a docket, you need disputes!

00:01:25

Jesse

Host

Yeah.

00:01:26

John

Host

Those both start with D. And I was getting D-nothing over the wire, through the transom. Wherever the disputes come from. 'Cause you know what happens, Jesse? They come from a form! Maximumfun.org/jjho. They come from a form! And I was getting nothing! And I was concerned! And you—Jennifer, I wrote to you about this, right?

00:01:48

Jennifer

Producer

Yeah.

00:01:49

John

Host

I wrote to you and I said… "Maybe no one's having disputes anymore."

00:01:53

Jennifer

Producer

Yeah.

00:01:54

John

Host

"Maybe this is it. Francis Fukuyama, End of History. All disputes settled. What are we gonna do?!"

00:02:00

Jesse

Host

I—I, too, was concerned it was a Francis Fukuyama situation!

[John stifles laughter.]

00:02:05

Jennifer

Producer

Me, too!

00:02:07

John

Host

I know you were! What about you, Joel?

00:02:09

Joel

Guest

I have no idea what you're talking about.

00:02:10

John

Host

Right! But then… [stifles laughter] Jennifer Marmor spoke to some of the wizards there at Maximum Fun Headquarters. And we realized there was something wrong with the form! And all of a sudden—all of the sudden—I would say, what? About… 200?

[Jennifer laughs quietly.]

Submitted disputes that had been lost in the form limbo came through?

00:02:32

Jennifer

Producer

At least. At least.

00:02:34

John

Host

And you would think that would be a nightmare! But it was a beautiful dream for me. Because now I know the show can go on! The show must go on!

But while that form was hung up—I just gotta say… people could still reach me. The form for submitting your disputes—and we need disputes for this show to work. So, please. Look to your left. Look to your right. You got a beef with one of those people. Write in! MaximumFun.org/jjho.

You can write me at hodgman@maximumfun.org! I do get those emails. When the form is down, that's where I get those emails, but apparently that email address is primarily reserved now for… very, very long letters from guys commenting on episodes from five to six years ago. That's pretty much what that email address is for.

[Jesse cracks up, John laughs.]

Joel, remember that letter I got from Ray?

00:03:28

Joel

Guest

Yes, I do.

00:03:29

John

Host

I forwarded it to you.

00:03:30

Joel

Guest

I—you did.

00:03:31

Jesse

Host

John, this was a—

00:03:32

John

Host

Three thousand words long!

[Jesse laughs, Joel chuckles.]

00:03:34

Jesse

Host

This is why Ray didn't get in to the college of his choice.

[Multiple people stifle laughter.]

00:03:38

John

Host

Yeah! He over—he over-wrote a little bit.

00:03:39

Jesse

Host

Yeah. Five-hundred–word limit.

00:03:40

John

Host

He was taking you to task! Because of your love for Joe Byrd and The Field Hippies. Did you read it finally?

00:03:45

Joel

Guest

Uh, little bit of it.

[John laughs.]

I got the gist of it.

00:03:50

Jesse

Host

Yeah.

00:03:51

John

Host

The gist, if you didn't—if you didn't know, is "Ultimate Spinach is a better band than Joe Byrd and The Field Hippies."

00:03:55

Joel

Guest

Or Moby Grape. Or The Electric Prunes.

[Jesse laughs.]

00:03:57

John

Host

But The United States of America is the best of them all.

00:03:59

Joel

Guest

Yes.

00:04:01

Jennifer

Producer

Are you sure those aren't flavors of those, like, icy pops? [Laughs.]

00:04:03

Jesse

Host

[Laughing] Those—yeah!

00:04:04

Jennifer

Producer

[Stifling laughter] That come in the little plastic thing?

00:04:06

Jesse

Host

[Laughing] The kind they give you for free at the rec center.

00:04:08

Jennifer

Producer

[Laughing] Yeah!

00:04:11

John

Host

Ray also is mad at you, Joel, 'cause you recommended an Ultimate Spinach song to me. "Funky—"

00:04:16

Crosstalk

Crosstalk

Joel & John: "—Freak Parade."

00:04:17

Joel

Guest

Yeah.

00:04:18

John

Host

Yeah. It's "Funny Free Parade." "Funny Freak Parade"! Sorry.

00:04:20

Joel

Guest

I was—I was going through a lot back then.

00:04:22

John

Host

Oh, now Ray's writing another letter all of a sudden.

Ray, we've mentioned your letter quite a few times now on the podcast. It's truly… a monument. And I appreciate it. And… maybe someday—maybe at the next MaxFunDrive, as a premium… I will read the entire letter. It will take a long time. May—I'm not putting it at the end of the episode. But maybe down the road, we'll read it.

Meanwhile, Joel, speaking of keeping it short, you always keep it terse! You start—you told half of a story about Micky Dolenz recently, and then later you told me there was more to it. Save it! Save it. We'll do it later in the episode. We have justice to dispense now!

00:05:01

Jesse

Host

Three thousand words… Here's a case from Sss—

00:05:04

John

Host

Three thousand—three thousand and thirteen.

00:05:06

Jesse

Host

You know, I—I prefer to read—I'm a real, like, print nut. I don't like reading electronics stuff.

00:05:14

John

Host

Right.

00:05:15

Jesse

Host

So I took it down to, uh, Kinko's, to have them print it out—they said they didn't have enough pieces of paper.

00:05:19

John

Host

[Laughs.] They ran out of paper at Kinko's?

00:05:24

Jesse

Host

They didn't have enough paper at the Kinko's. The defunct… [laughing] print shop, Kinko's.

00:05:32

Jennifer

Producer

Probably why they're outta paper.

00:05:34

Jesse

Host

[Stifling laughter] Yeah.

00:05:35

John

Host

Yeah. Jesse, I just wanna—I just wanna say there are a lot of reasons that I love you.

00:05:40

Jesse

Host

Uh-huh.

00:05:41

John

Host

Personal reasons and professional.

00:05:42

Jesse

Host

Yeah.

00:05:43

John

Host

In terms of sheer comedy? Very few—very—I mean, it's not a competition. But you win.

[Beat.]

Because you said they ran out of pieces of paper.

[Jesse laughs.]

That's one of the greatest series of words I've ever heard in my life. Good job.

00:05:56

Jesse

Host

Thank you.

Here's a case from Sally. In Sequim, Washington:

"My wonderful, amazing mother worked a low-income job her whole life so that she could support and be there for me. When she retired, she moved into the garage that we converted to her retirement cottage. She is such a help, watches the kids, does laundry, supervises chores, and more.

But she insists on paying rent! We have tried to turn it down, but she just leaves it on my desk. Mom works a few hours a week doing in-home care and volunteering for hospice, because she's truly an angel on Earth. We want her to use her money to do things that are for her. Please help us convince her to let us support her the way she has always supported me."

00:06:49

John

Host

Wow. First of all, Sally? Good job. Everyone's doing the right thing in this dispute. This is like a zero-monster dispute.

00:06:57

Jesse

Host

Yeah. Love it.

00:06:58

John

Host

Mom's doing great. Sally, you're letting your mom… live in your garage. Good job on converting it into a retirement cottage, instead of just making up a cot for her.

00:07:10

Jesse

Host

Oh, John—

00:07:11

John

Host

[Stifling laughter] Arthur Fonzarelli–style.

00:07:12

Jesse

Host

John, you said it was a no-monster dispute, but I missed this line at the end. Uh, "Please help us convince her to let us support her the way she has always supported me.

PS,

Every month at the full moon—"

[Stifling laughter] And I can't read the last part, but I'm concerned.

[John cracks up.]

Getting worried about Wolfmans.

00:07:32

John

Host

Just—just to be clear, that's a reference to Wolfmans.

00:07:34

Jesse

Host

Yeah.

00:07:35

John

Host

No other monster.

00:07:36

Jesse

Host

No.

00:07:37

Crosstalk

Crosstalk

John & Jesse: Just Wolfmans.

00:07:38

John

Host

Alright. [Sighs.] Jesse—

00:07:39

Jesse

Host

Yeah.

00:07:40

John

Host

If you had a parent living in your garage, who was helping you out—

00:07:43

Jesse

Host

Mm-hm.

00:07:44

John

Host

—and they were slipping money on your desk.

00:07:45

Jesse

Host

Yeah.

00:07:46

John

Host

And you were like, "Ma! Pa!" Whoever it is. Uncle Joe.

00:07:49

Jesse

Host

Mm-hm.

00:07:50

John

Host

Legal guardian Joel Mann. Whoever it is.

00:07:52

Jesse

Host

Right.

00:07:53

John

Host

Who raised you and helped you. You take this money back, and they said no. What would you do?

00:07:58

Jesse

Host

Well… first of all, I don't have a garage. So I dispute the premise of your question.

00:08:03

John

Host

Right.

00:08:04

Jesse

Host

However. If we assume that I had a garage—

00:08:06

John

Host

What, you have your mom living in a carport?

00:08:09

Jesse

Host

My—

00:08:10

John

Host

No walls!

00:08:11

Jesse

Host

My mother-in-law, Beth, is a caretaker. She's a professional caretaker—

00:08:19

John

Host

Mm-hm.

00:08:20

Jesse

Host

She's an MFT, marriage and family therapist. And she is a family caretaker. She's the person that her family relies on. Both her brothers and sisters, her parents when they were with us, and her children. Everyone relies on Beth as a caretaker.

And Beth has given an extraordinary amount to my family. Myself and my wife and my children. Especially if things—as things have been very, very difficult for us over the past year and a half.

And I have to say that while I enjoy finding creative ways to thank her, and make her life better… um, if—if she were living in my garage, and contributing in the many ways that I'm sure she would if she did live in my garage, and she wanted to pay rent, I would allow her to do so. And the reason is that… it is a matter of great pride to her, and great comfort to her, and, um great joy to her to take care of others. And to be responsible for herself. And I wouldn't want to take that away from her.

00:09:51

John

Host

Right! You say Beth is involved in MFT, marriage and family therapy?

00:09:55

Jesse

Host

Yeah. That's correct.

00:09:56

John

Host

I'm gonna add a letter. MFTB. You know why?

00:09:59

Jesse

Host

Why's that?

00:10:00

John

Host

Beth is "mother-friending the best."

[Jesse cracks up, John laughs quietly.]

00:10:05

Jesse

Host

[Stifling laughter] There's no doubt about that with Beth. Beth rules.

00:10:09

John

Host

And it sounds like—it sounds like, uh, Sally's mom is pretty amazing! But Sally—but I get—and I understand, Sally, why… like, you feel like, "Mom, you're doing all this for us. You don't have to give us money!" But for… Sally's mom, it's a point of pride and dignity! People feel better when they can support themselves.

Just like it is a great gift for you, Sally. That first time you were able to take your mom out to dinner, and pay for it. And—boy, I—I hope you've done that.

[Jesse laughs.]

In your life so far. [Stifles laughter.] If not, you're a little behind. But you'll get there! It's a great—it's a great and wonderful gift. But equally, it is important to Sally's mom to be able to make this gesture of saying, "I am still a living, relevant person, who can support herself."

00:11:01

John

Host

Now, my mom is no longer living. But if she were living in our garage, and helping to take care of our kids… it would be weird 'cause our kids are basically grown. But let's just say for sake of argument.

00:11:12

Jesse

Host

Yeah.

00:11:13

John

Host

She were offering all the help Sally's mom was, and my mom was paying rent? I'd take that money! And you know what I'd do with it?

00:11:18

Jesse

Host

What would you do, John?

00:11:20

John

Host

I'd buy cigarettes and drugs.

00:11:21

Jesse

Host

Yeah.

00:11:22

John

Host

Illegal drugs.

00:11:23

Jesse

Host

Illegal drugs. [Stifling laughter] Just spend it on illegal drugs.

00:11:24

John

Host

And say, "Thanks, Mom!"

00:11:26

Jesse

Host

"Later for you, chump!"

00:11:27

John

Host

"I'm gonna go party!"

[John and/or Jesse laugh.]

00:11:29

Jesse

Host

"Thanks for the stacks."

00:11:30

John

Host

"This is where your rent is going, Mom!"

[Stifles laughter.]

No, of course not. I never did drugs when I was a kid; I don't do drugs now! Don't smoke cigarettes, either! Don't do drugs, everybody. Sally, don't do drugs! Don't take your mom's money and do drugs, Sally! What?! Suddenly you are a monster.

But if you wanna do something that honors your mom… you can take that money, you could put it in a little account, save it for your kids. You could donate it to the hospice. Or you could give it to your local freeform community radio station, WERU or whatever.

[Someone laughs quietly.]

Something that's meaningful to you. Pay that money forward, as the old movie says! You don't have to keep it. You don't have to keep it and spend it on yourself. But honor your mom! By taking her money.

You know, money is dehumanizing! And… the root of a lot evil. But there is something that is incredibly important about being generous. And the—one of the only things money is good for is an expression of generosity. To have enough resources in your life that you may be generous is a wonderful thing. So accept it when it's offered to you, and offer it when you are able to offer it yourself.

00:12:47

Sound Effect

Sound Effect

[Three gavel bangs.]

00:12:49

Jesse

Host

Here's something from Emery in Lewiston, Maine:

"Please help my girlfriend and I settle a bet. Are chocolate-covered pretzels a candy, or a snack? I say they're candy. Chocolate is indisputably a candy, and chocolate-covered pretzels are often sold in candy stores.

My girlfriend says they're a snack, because they're sold with other snacks, like chips and nuts, at grocery stores. She also argues that they sell ice cream at candy stores, and you wouldn't call ice cream a candy."

00:13:23

John

Host

Mm. Jesse, as you know, we no longer do… "Is X a Y?"–style food disputes.

00:13:30

Jesse

Host

Yeah, they're too popular.

00:13:31

John

Host

Oh, should we do them?!

00:13:33

Crosstalk

Crosstalk

Jennifer: No.

Jesse: I don't know, we oughta do something. [Laughs.]

00:13:36

John

Host

I mean, we still get a lot of 'em.

00:13:37

Jesse

Host

Yeah.

00:13:38

John

Host

We settled—we settled "Is X a Y?" food disputes—

[Someone laughs quietly.]

—a couple of years ago. When we worked through all the remaining ones in our docket, and then I explained exactly why a hotdog is not a sandwich. And you can listen to it at Bit.ly/JJHOTDOG. J-J-H-O-T-D-O-G. Think it's all capital letters.

I will allow this one. 'Cause I'm interested in it. But also, Emery is writing from Lewiston, Maine. Joel… what's the poop on Lewiston?

00:14:08

Joel

Guest

It's right next to Auburn.

00:14:09

John

Host

Right next to Auburn!

00:14:10

Joel

Guest

Yep.

00:14:11

John

Host

The Lewiston-Auburn Metropolitan District. And what do they call it for short?

00:14:16

Joel

Guest

…LA.

00:14:17

John

Host

LA.

[Jesse laughs.]

True story. [Laughs.] It's also the home—I've never been to Lewiston, which is sad for me, because it's actually kind of an ancestral home place for the Hodgman family. A bunch of Hodgmans left Townsend, Mass, went up to Lewiston for a while. Opened a store, said, "This… is terrible; let's go home," and they did. But some of them stuck around! There is famously—and I see this on Instagram every year—a Hodgman's Frozen Custard Stand. On the Lewiston Road in New Gloucester, Maine, which is just south of Lewis—you ever have that Hodgman's Frozen Custard, Joel?

00:14:53

Joel

Guest

No.

00:14:54

John

Host

No, me neither. I support them—I support them, but I don't want any frozen custard.

And it's the home of the Patrick Dempsey Challenge, and… it is traditionally one of the most Francophonic communities in the USA. A lot of French-speakers of Canadian ancestry are there.

And since the early 2000s, the home of the thriving Somali-American community! That despite being met with, uh, some predictable racism once, uh, a bunch of Somali families moved there—refugees from Somalia—particularly of the Bantu ethnic minority. The—and some of that racism was—was then re-stoked, shall we say, recently. By various people.

Nonetheless, that community has re-invigorated downtown Lewiston. Shout-out to Safiya Khalid, democratic organizer, co-chair of the 2020 Sanders campaign in Maine, and now 25-year-old first-time member of the Lewiston City Council, as of 2019.

It's a cool town! Just wanted to talk about Lewiston. For a sec. LA. I love LA!

Jesse, is a—is a chocolate-covered pretzel a snack or a candy?

00:15:55

Jesse

Host

I'm inclined to call it a snack.

00:15:57

John

Host

[Whispering] Yeah. It's a snack. It's a snack.

[Stops whispering.]

You know why, Emery? …Which side of this was Emery on? I don't even remember now. I'm so up in my Lewiston facts.

00:16:07

Jesse

Host

Emery says… they're candy.

00:16:10

John

Host

Yeah. No. Wrong. No part of it's candy. Pretzel's not candy. It's pretzel.

[Whispering] Chocolate is not candy.

[Stops whispering.]

Is it a integral part of a candy bar? Sure it is! But candy is cooked sugar. Chocolate is a different thing. Chocolate is chocolate. Caramel's candy. I'm even gonna say nougat is candy.

00:16:30

Jesse

Host

[Strained growl] Oh, nougat!

00:16:31

John

Host

[Chuckles.] You ever—you like a 3 Musketeers bar?

00:16:34

Jesse

Host

Yeah. But I—you know what I just ate? A Take 5 bar. That's my top bar.

00:16:38

John

Host

That's your top one? You like—

00:16:39

Jesse

Host

Yeah, my colleague Christian has some on his desk, [laughing] so I steal one whenever I come into the office.

[John gasps.]

00:16:47

Jennifer

Producer

I should say that Christian consents to that; Jesse's not just a monster boss.

[Jesse laughs, Jennifer stifles laughter.]

00:16:52

John

Host

I was just gonna say! Jesse Thorn! Gentleman bully!

[Jesse laughs.]

I'm sure Christian consents to it. But when you—when you grab that Take 5 bar off his desk, do you just… start humming Dave Brubeck's "Take Five" to yourself?

[Jesse and John briefly word-hum a bit of the song.]

But chocolate is not. Chocolate is its own thing. And is chocolate a snack? …Yes. And here I am, talking as someone who dislikes sweets! For the reason I've said a million times; I'm not gonna say it again. Because one time I had the greatest snack in the world, and it was chocolate.

When I was 19 years old, and I visited Buenos Aires, Argentina, and I met another American there named Meredith. And we were taking a walk. Long, long walk through one of the beautifulest cities in the world, full of incredible food and chocolate, and she had some of the, like, darkest, bitterest chocolate I've ever seen. She said, "This is my snack," and I said, "I want some," and it was the greatest snack I've ever had. That's why they put it into, uh, trail mixes! Right, Jesse?

00:17:53

Jesse

Host

Yeah. Just like banana chips.

00:17:56

John

Host

Oh. Ugh.

[Jesse laughs quietly.]

Stale bananas there.

[Jesse laughs harder.]

Anyway. Chocolate-covered pretzels are a good snack! You can even get some chocolate-covered gluten-free pretzels! And—and I don't care for the gluten-free imitation products that much, but those taste very good.

00:18:19

Jesse

Host

I like a yogurt-covered pretzel.

00:18:21

John

Host

A yogurt-cov—that's a snack!

00:18:23

Sound Effect

Sound Effect

[Three gavel bangs.]

00:18:25

John

Host

Joel Mann? You're a snack.

00:18:27

Jesse

Host

[Laughs.] We're gonna take a quick break to hear from this week's partner. We'll be back with the full Micky Dolenz story from Joel, plus more cases to clear from the docket, on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

00:18:40

Sound Effect

Transition

[Three gavel bangs.]

00:18:43

Jesse

Promo

It's the Judge John Hodgman podcast. And as always, our show is brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org. We salute you, individually and collectively, for going to MaximumFun.org/join and keeping the lights on here at MaxFun.

We are also grateful this week to have the support of Made In. John, I just actually cooked some, uh, eggs on my Made In carbon steel skillet!

00:19:12

John

Promo

You know what, Jesse? I just did the same thing.

[Jesse laughs.]

'Cause it's perfect for making eggs!

00:19:17

Jesse

Promo

Yes!

00:19:18

John

Promo

And do you know what I ate it off of?

00:19:20

Jesse

Promo

What's that?

00:19:21

John

Promo

A plate! Bought for me for my birthday, by my wife and-a-whole-human-being-in-her-own-right, from Made In as well. They also—not only do they do incredibly high-quality, perfectly crafted cookware—pans. Uh, casseroles. All kinds of cooking equipment that are professional-grade at a highly reduced price, but they also make tableware that's incredible!

And I love it. I've always wanted a carbon steel pan. And I've always—I'll—I'll say it: I quailed at the price. I quailed at the price, Jesse.

00:19:55

Jesse

Promo

Yeah.

00:19:56

John

Promo

But if quality and craftsmanship is important to you, check out Made In. Because this is a brand that works with renowned chefs and artisans to produce some of the world's best pots, pans, knives, wineglasses, plates—and they do it in a way that makes it affordable to you.

00:20:10

Jesse

Promo

Yeah. It's an incredible service. I was watching America's Test Kitchen. Uh, not to brag, but—

00:20:14

John

Promo

ATK. ATK.

00:20:15

Jesse

Promo

Yeah. I got that PBS Living service.

00:20:19

John

Promo

Shout-out to Afton Cyrus.

00:20:21

Jesse

Promo

I was watching, uh, America's Test Kitchen, watching a thing about how to make the perfect fried egg. My daughter wanted to make fried eggs. So you know what I said? I—I got this Made In carbon steel pan. This thing's non-stick; it came seasoned! I didn't have to season it! I'm not—look.

[John exhales sharply.]

I'm not some professional restaurant chef, but I can use professional restaurant chefs' equipment at an affordable price! You know why? 'Cause they cut out the dang middleman.

I made those eggs. You gotta keep the cover on to steam them, apparently, so that the—so that the whites cook while—both sides of the whites cook while the yolk, uh, remains at your preferred consistency.

00:21:00

John

Promo

I've seen—I've seen that episode of ATK as well. It's life-changing.

00:21:03

Jesse

Promo

Yeah. Anyway—

00:21:04

John

Promo

Made In has 28,000 five-star reviews, and their products are used by some of the world's best chefs, and [brief French accent] Michelin-starred restaurants around the world. That's a tire company that rates restaurants. [Brief French accent] Michelin. They know what they're talking about.

00:21:14

Jesse

Promo

Yeah. Yeah.

00:21:15

John

Promo

And right now, Made In is offering our listeners—you—15% off your first order with promo code "JJHO." This is the best discount available anywhere online for Made In products.

00:21:29

Jesse

Promo

Go to MadeInCookware.com/jjho, and use promo code "JJHO" for 15% off your first order. That's MadeInCookware.com/jjho, and use the promo code "JJHO."

And John, speaking of food…!

00:21:51

John

Promo

Yes.

00:21:52

Jesse

Promo

We're supported this week, also, by Imperfect Foods.

00:21:57

John

Promo

Every year, Jesse, billions of pounds of food go to waste. Often because it doesn't live up to the—well, frankly, the beauty standards of grocery stores.

00:22:06

Jesse

Promo

Yeah.

00:22:08

John

Promo

A bruised apple. Uh, a slightly imperfect pear. It all gets tossed away, and that's… a crime, frankly!

00:22:15

Jesse

Promo

But there's something you can do about it! Imperfect Foods is on a mission to eliminate food waste, and build a better food system for everybody!

So you get a delivery of sustainable, affordable groceries. We're talking produce, protein, eggs and dairy, pantry staples, straight to your door. They're always adding fun and tasty new discoveries for you to try each week, as well as exclusive items you can only get from Imperfect.

John, you know, I grew up eating imperfect foods. Not from Imperfect Foods; they're new. But I grew up—my stepmother worked in a grocery store.

00:22:54

John

Promo

Sure.

00:22:55

Jesse

Promo

And she thought it was unconscionable, the food that was thrown away because… there was a little spot on it, or whatever.

00:23:02

John

Promo

Right.

00:23:04

Jesse

Promo

I grew up eating that wonderful food! And I am thrilled about Imperfect Foods' efforts to save that food from the trash pile of history, because it is good food that is ready to be eaten.

00:23:18

John

Promo

You grew up eating that imperfect food, Jesse. And let me remind the listeners… You are nine feet tall.

00:23:26

Jesse

Promo

I'm now nine feet tall. You know what I should've done? I should've put that imperfect food in an envelope and mailed it to myself, so that I would have a copyright on that idea, but apparently Imperfect Foods beat me to it, and, you know… God-or-whatever bless them for having done so.

00:23:41

John

Promo

Look. It's—it's a really wonderful service, and all you have to do is sign up, create your own flexible, personalized grocery plan… and then shop online each week, and get affordable and sustainable groceries delivered directly to your door.

And right now, Imperfect Foods is offering our listeners 20% off… your first four orders! When you go to ImperfectFoods.com, and make sure to use promo code "Hodgman".

00:24:08

Jesse

Promo

Try Imperfect Foods now, and for a limited time get 20% off your first four orders. Go to ImperfectFoods.com, and use "Hodgman" to sign up. That's 20% off your first four orders at ImperfectFoods.com, offer code "Hodgman".

00:24:26

John

Promo

Imperfect Foods does not guarantee that you will grow up to be nine feet tall.

00:24:30

Sound Effect

Transition

[Three gavel bangs.]

00:24:32

Jesse

Host

Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. We're clearing the docket this week.

00:24:38

John

Host

Jesse, you remember when we were talking about Tom Scharpling auditioning for the Monkees?

00:24:42

Jesse

Host

Yeah. The New Monkees, yeah.

00:24:44

John

Host

Yeah, the New Monkees. Part of his great new book It Never Ends.

00:24:46

Jesse

Host

Wonderful book. Guest on Bullseye! Very, very moving interview with Tom Scharpling on Bullseye. Moving and funny.

00:24:53

John

Host

I confess that I have not listened to it, and I must.

00:24:55

Jesse

Host

Coming up. Coming up. Uh, we talk a lot about some important feelings, and then at the end, uh, because I'm worried it's too intense and sad, uh, I just ask him to talk about why he thinks C-3PO is the worst character in all fiction.

[John and Jesse laugh.]

00:25:12

John

Host

Tune in to Bullseye! NPR.

00:25:13

Jesse

Host

Yeah. [Laughs quietly.]

00:25:15

John

Host

Scharpling has his own Micky Dolenz story. But Joel, you mentioned—we were talking about how much I love the Monkees, and you mentioned you had met Micky Dolenz, correct?

00:25:25

Joel

Guest

That's correct.

00:25:26

John

Host

What part of the story—how much of the story did you tell? All of it, or some of it?

00:25:30

Joel

Guest

Just some of it.

00:25:31

John

Host

Tell me the "some of it" again.

00:25:33

Joel

Guest

Well, I was on, uh, 495 down Massachusetts, and pulled into a rest area—

00:25:36

John

Host

Right. Right.

00:25:37

Joel

Guest

—and there's the big Monkees bus.

00:25:39

John

Host

Right.

00:25:40

Joel

Guest

So I—you know. When you go to a rest area, you usually go for a reason. So I went into the men's room, and—

00:25:48

John

Host

Wait, wait. Tell me the version you told before. Where you just walk in with him.

00:25:51

Joel

Guest

Yeah, we walk in together, into the restroom. Micky Dolenz and I.

00:25:55

John

Host

Right. And that's where the story ended.

00:25:57

Joel

Guest

Right. But it didn't—

00:25:58

John

Host

Last time. But it didn't end there, did it?

00:25:59

Joel

Guest

Right. No. No. So we both go into the men's room, and we're standing where guys stand when they go into the men's room.

00:26:07

John

Host

Right. Urinals.

00:26:08

Joel

Guest

Yes.

00:26:08

John

Host

Yeah, it's a—it's not a—it's not a child's podcast.

[Joel laughs.]

Also, children know what urinals are. They know what pee-pee and poo-poo is.

00:26:14

Jesse

Host

Yeah. They often use urinals.

00:26:15

John

Host

Yeah. Yeah! They can handle this.

00:26:18

Joel

Guest

I'm a conservative guy; what can I say?

00:26:20

John

Host

Right. You're a snack.

00:26:21

Joel

Guest

So anyway, I look over at this guy, and I go, "Hey! You're Micky Dolenz, aren't you?"

And he goes, "Yeah, I am!"

00:26:26

Jesse

Host

Hm.

00:26:27

John

Host

Side by side at the urinal!

00:26:28

Joel

Guest

Right!

00:26:29

John

Host

End of story!

00:26:30

Joel

Guest

Yep!

00:26:31

John

Host

It's a great story.

[Joel laughs, John stifles laughter.]

00:26:32

Jesse

Host

Yeah.

00:26:33

John

Host

Once when I was in college, I—I was at a urinal next to the, uh, famed Shakespeare literary theorist Harold Bloom. And I couldn't go.

[Jesse laughs.]

I was so intimidated.

00:26:44

Jesse

Host

You were worried about whether or not you would be included in the Western canon?

00:26:48

John

Host

Yeah.

[John and Jesse laugh.]

Didn't wanna ruin my chances. That The Areas of my Expertise wouldn't be added to his list.

[Jesse laughs, John stifles laughter.]

Of formative Western works.

Joel, I just wanted—I just wanted to tell that story, 'cause we de—the listeners deserve the fully Micky. They got the full Micky. I love the fact that Micky Dolenz was more friendly at you at a rest area, standing next to someone at a urinal, being asked, "Are you Micky Dolenz?" Which by the way, Joel, you shouldn't have done. More friendly to you than he was to Tom Scharpling at the US Open; read the book.

00:27:19

John

Host

But I also love that you withheld that—the pee-pee part of the story, 'cause you are so respectful of our listeners. I think they can handle it.

00:27:25

Joel

Guest

Well, I think it's a family show, is what I thought it was.

00:27:27

John

Host

No.

00:27:28

Joel

Guest

No?

00:27:29

John

Host

It's a family-tolerant show.

00:27:30

Joel

Guest

Okay, I won't hold back anymore.

00:27:31

John

Host

No, no, you can—well, wait a minute.

[Joel and Jesse laugh.]

00:27:34

Jesse

Host

At least go to the urinal, Joel.

00:27:36

John

Host

Yeah. [Laughs.] Thank you, Joel.

So what's going on back in the docket there, Jesse?

00:27:41

Jesse

Host

Here's a case from Rick in Fortville, Indiana:

"I'm a film fanatic. My wife and I tend—"

00:27:47

John

Host

Okay, throw this awa—throw—throw it away. Throw it away; I don't want it.

00:27:50

Jesse

Host

[Laughs.] At least Rick didn't say he's a cineaste. Uh—

"My wife and I tend to watch TV shows when we're together, and I'll typically watch films from the Golden Age on my own. However, lately my wife has been willfully selecting great films to watch. But only when I'm not there, or too busy to watch them with her.

I think there's malicious intent involved. It started when I was about to start working overtime, so she put Charade on to watch by herself. She knows I'm a classic film buff. Cary Grant and Audrey Hepburn? Of course I'd wanna watch! I've also walked in on her attempting to watch films from Martin Scorsese, Gus Van Sant, Alfred Hitchcock… All without me.

She denies it's intentional, but I don't believe her. If I'm around, she'll throw on something like Bio-Dome, or In the Army Now."

[John cackles.]

Pauly Shore vehicles.

00:28:50

John

Host

I think Bio-Dome is too, isn't it?

00:28:52

Jesse

Host

Bi—yeah, they're both Pauly Shore—well, Bio-Dome arguably is an early Tenacious D vehicle.

00:28:58

John

Host

Oh, okay.

00:28:59

Jesse

Host

First on-screen appearance of Tenacious D in the film Bio-Dome.

"I want restitution for crimes against cinema!" [Stifles laughter.]

00:29:06

John

Host

Whoa.

00:29:08

Jesse

Host

Wow.

00:29:10

John

Host

[Stifling laughter] Listen, you… film fanatic!

00:29:11

Jesse

Host

[Chuckles.] This guy is—his fanaticism is showing!

00:29:16

John

Host

Rick. I feel—[laughs]—I feel you. I feel you! Because if I were trying to watch classic movies with my partner… and then they were sneaking in Charade, I'd be a little annoyed. But then when she turned around and made you watch Bio-Dome? I don't know—this is some kind of love language. I think we may need to hear this one in person, Jennifer.

00:29:36

Jesse

Host

I kinda just wanna know which Ernest movies are involved in this.

[John and Jesse laugh.]

Like, is it just Ernest Goes to Jail, or is it full-on Ernest Scared Stupid?

00:29:48

John

Host

Allll the way.

00:29:49

Jesse

Host

Yeah.

00:29:50

John

Host

All the way to the end of the Ernest quantum universe.

00:29:52

Jesse

Host

[Stifling laughter] When she puts on Dorf on Golf, that's when you know it's serious.

00:29:56

John

Host

If Rick is representing this accurately, then Rick's wife, and whole-human-being-in-her-own-right, is playing some incredible mind games here. 'Cause what I was gonna say was…

Hey, you know, you're a film fanatic. You lead with it! And that puts a certain pressure on someone who's watching a movie with you. 'Cause if you're just a person who just wants to enjoy a movie or a TV show, and you're sitting there with a film fanatic? Who maybe is pointing out things about the movie to you, or is trying to educate you on what a movie is like… And you're just like, "I just wanna watch the thing…"

Then, yeah, I could see—I could see your partner sneaking away to get a little… Stanley Donen's Charade on their own.

I later found out Rick has never see Charade. And that's fine! Charade's not that good. Walter Matthau, amazing. Audrey Hepburn, terrific. Is the script by Peter Stone? Yes. Did he write Taking of Pelham One Two Three? Of course he did. But it's not that great a movie; you're not missing that much, Rick.

00:30:50

Jesse

Host

Just watch Hopscotch. Watch Hopscotch.

00:30:53

John

Host

Hopscotch! There you go! And there are some classic movies—and I would argue most Hitchcocks—that you just wanna watch by yourself… when you're 12 years old, staying at your uncle's house over the holidays, in Philadelphia, with double ear infection.

[Jesse laughs quietly, John stifles laughter.]

And you can't do anything except lie on the couch… and let your ears drain out.

[Jesse laughs, John stifles laughter.]

Merry Christmas. One of the greatest holidays I've ever had! Going down to Philadelphia, getting that double ear infection. I got out of every family event. Just rented all of the Hitchcocks, and just lay on the couch, with the full body horror of my ear infection draining out of my bursted eardrums, and just soaking up all that classic cinema by myself! Sometimes there are movies you just wanna watch by yourself, without your film fanatic husband

00:31:41

John

Host

But I'll tell you. Rick, your—your partner in life… If what you're saying is true and she's throwing that Bio-Dome at you? And sneaking Charade behind your back? I wanna hear from them. Put 'em on the, uh, schedule for a live hearing. See if we can get them live, Jennifer Marmor.

00:31:55

Jennifer

Producer

Alright, I'll see what I can do.

00:31:57

John

Host

I'm gonna do a provisional—a provisional ruling in favor of Rick. That she should not force Bio-Dome on him when she's hoarding the good stuff to herself. But I wanna hear what's going on.

00:32:08

Sound Effect

Sound Effect

[Three gavel bangs.]

00:32:10

Jesse

Host

My wife and I have been watching Hacks.

00:32:12

John

Host

Sure, starring Jean Smart. Everyone loves it.

00:32:15

Jesse

Host

Yeah. Jean Smart's so good in it! [Chuckles.] Oh man, is she good in it. It's a good show, but Jean Smart is next-level good in the—in the program.

But, uh, it's what my wife and I have been watching together. Um, but, you know, sometimes my wife will, uh, be making the children's lunches for the next day, I'll just be kinda waiting to hang out with my wife, I'll watch a movie. I've been watching, uh, McCabe & Mrs. Miller.

00:32:39

John

Host

Oh, wow!

00:32:40

Jesse

Host

A Robert Altman, uh, Western. I—I don't get it.

00:32:44

John

Host

[Laughs.] I don't think I ever saw it.

00:32:45

Jesse

Host

Yeah, I don't—I don't know. Why is Warren Beatty muttering so much?

00:32:48

John

Host

Well, it's a Altman movie.

00:32:49

Jesse

Host

Yeah. Ca—why didn't Altman make any Walter Matthau movies? That's a mutter I wanna watch!

00:32:54

John

Host

Yeah, Altman was like, "Too—that guy mutters too much."

00:32:57

Jesse

Host

He's the perfect mutterer.

00:32:59

John

Host

"I'll definitely make a—a movie—[stifles laughter]—a movie version of the childhood favorite Popeye… in which none of the dialogue is audible."

[Jesse laughs.]

"And Harry Nilsson basically whispers the songs. But Walter Matthau? [Stifles laughter.] That's a bridge too far."

Would've been a great Pappy! Although I don't wanna take away from Ray Walston. Pappy—Popeye's pappy, Pappy. That was an incredible performance, but…

00:33:23

Jesse

Host

I mean, you can probably guess my favorite Altman movie. A Prairie Home Companion. [Laughs.]

00:33:29

John

Host

[Whisper-laughing] Oh, boy…

00:33:30

Jesse

Host

[Laughing] No it's not.

[Instantly stops laughing.]

It's MASH.

Here's something from Rafa in New York:

"My wife Hannah thinks it's okay to text people starting at seven AM if they're close friends, and starting at eight AM in all other cases. I think it's rude to text anyone before nine AM unless you've discussed it previously… with some exceptions. Say you're both known early risers, or you're both on the night shift.

This came to a head recently when Hannah hired someone to help us with a task… via a text at 8:15 AM.

Who's right? Who's wrong?"

00:34:11

John

Host

Hm. Hey! Some people live on the West Coast. You do, Jesse. You do, Jennifer. And I'm gonna tell you something. I probably texted you guys too early many, many times over the years. Because there's a three-hour time difference! I might be up, raring to go at nine AM—I'm just kidding. Ten AM, 10:30 AM, raring to go.

Honestly, I don't start raring until about 11:30.

[Jesse bursts out laughing.]

That's when I ha—that's when I start hating myself for not getting going. [Stifles laughter.] But able to go. Let's say able to go, ten AM. That's still seven AM your time! And if I texted you at ten AM my time, seven AM your time? I apologize! And I—it's—and you know why I did that? Because I never read Rafa's letter.

Rafa—I'm gonna tell you something, Rafa, in New York City, New York! Hannah—you really opened my eyes! You made me much more conscious of the time that I am texting people. And I agree with you! Hannah's texting too early!

Jesse, how often do you get a text too early in the morning from someone on the East Coast?

00:35:13

Jesse

Host

Not an issue for me.

00:35:14

John

Host

Hm.

00:35:15

Jesse

Host

Don't have very many friends.

00:35:16

John

Host

Oh. Also, you never sleep.

00:35:17

Jesse

Host

That's true. Sleep is the cousin of death.

00:35:19

John

Host

Wide awake, raring to go. At all time.

00:35:21

Jesse

Host

[Laughs quietly.] All rare all the time.

00:35:23

John

Host

Do you agree with me, or disagree with me, re: Rafa?

00:35:26

Jesse

Host

I think it's a very reasonable expectation that unless there are special circumstances, you not text early or very late. Unless you have a clear understanding of whether or not that person is awake.

Now, of course, there are many people who set the "do not disturb" on their phone when they go to sleep. There are others—

00:35:51

John

Host

Mm-hm.

00:35:52

Jesse

Host

—uh, who have their phone in another room when they go to sleep.

00:35:56

John

Host

Good sleep hygiene there.

00:35:58

Jesse

Host

Good sleep hygiene.

00:35:59

John

Host

Mm-hm.

00:36:00

Jesse

Host

For whom it would not be a concern. But simply because for some people it is not a concern—because they are doing those things—does not make it… polite to presume that someone would be one of those people.

This was covered… by my middle school! Which sent out a student roster with telephone numbers, but had a strict rule you weren't allowed to call anyone after nine.

00:36:21

John

Host

Oh! Good going, middle school. What your middle school understood—and that we've had difficulty keeping up with as a society—is that we're not meant to be on all the time. We are not meant to be available all the time. And I think that a lot of what we went through—except for the parts that were terrifying, and—and tragic, and awful, and sad… Lot of what we went through over the past year and change is a re-evaluating of what's okay and what's not okay.

A lot of dumb stuff was revealed to not be okay. Such as… minimum wage. [Stifles laughter.] Such as inequality of wealth, and inequality of access to social services.

00:37:05

Jesse

Host

And inequality of access to going to space on a rocket.

00:37:09

John

Host

Yeah. That's right. I'm sorry that you got, uh, snaked out of that opportunity to hit that Blue Origin flight this morning, Jesse.

00:37:15

Jesse

Host

That would've been the best 75 seconds of my life.

[Jesse and John laugh.]

[Still laughing] As I briefly met the dictionary definition of being in space.

00:37:26

John

Host

Yeah. And there's also pros and cons to driving… 30 minutes to two hours to be in a place with each other, in order to do work. There are pros… but there are cons! And there are alternatives! And similarly, you don't. need. to be. available. all. the. time. You're not built that way; you're not supposed to be that way.

There is still an expectation—right or wrong!—that a text message requires a quick reply. Even in Maine! Right, Joel?

[Long pause.]

00:37:58

Joel

Guest

Yes.

00:37:59

John

Host

Okay.

[Someone laughs quietly.]

You could be a little faster next time. When I ask you a question. See, Joel? Joel knows… the way life oughta be. Take your time. Respond when you're ready.

So, yeah. Don't text in the middle of the night, don't text too early, and also—hey. Uh, it goes both ways, West Coast. I'm sorry if I've been texting you too early. How about you not set phone meetings at… five PM West Coast time? That's eight PM my time! You know that! You know that. My day is done then! What are you doing, West Coast people? Stop it!

00:38:30

Jesse

Host

Yeah!

00:38:31

John

Host

You know better.

00:38:32

Jesse

Host

You're trying to watch Veronica's Closet!

00:38:33

John

Host

Yeah, that's my Veronica's Closet time!

00:38:36

Sound Effect

Sound Effect

[Three gavel bangs.]

00:38:38

Jesse

Host

Let's take a quick break. When we come back, a case about hotdogs?!

00:38:42

Sound Effect

Transition

[Three gavel bangs.]

00:38:45

Promo

Clip

[A thundering explosion sound, followed by the ongoing roar of an excited crowd.]

Music: Electric guitar.

Hal Lublin: [In a dramatic, guttural Randy Savage impersonation.] Prepare yourself for the greatest pro wrestling podcast spectacular known as [echoing] Tights and Fights! A backdropping audio showcase that helps you understand the world of pro wrestling, with a lot of love and no toxic masculinityyyyy! Featuring hosts: Danielle Radford.

Danielle Radford: Time to kick butt and chew gum! And I’m all out of butts!

Hal: Lindsey Kelk.

Lindsey Kelk: I’m a brutal brit and my fists were made to punch and HIT!

Hal: And Hal Lublin! [Switching to his normal voice.] I was doing the voiceover this whole time! 

Danielle: Hear us talk about pro wrestling’s greatest triumphs and failures!

Lindsey: And make fun of its weekly absurdities!

Hal: On the perfect wrestling podcast: [gutturally] Tights and Fights! Every Saturday, Saturday, SATURDAY, on Maximum Fun.

[Music stops.]

00:39:33

Sound Effect

Transition

[Three gavel bangs.]

00:39:35

Jesse

Promo

Judge Hodgman, we're taking a break from clearing the docket. We have something very, very, VERY exciting coming up: A worldwide… Judge John Hodgman extravaganza!

00:39:50

John

Promo

That's right, Jesse! As you may recall—if you are listening in the United Kingdom—for a couple of years, we got to travel to London to be part of the London Podcast Festival, an incredible podcast festival—guess where it is—in London.

00:40:04

Jesse

Promo

Yeah.

00:40:05

John

Promo

I wish I could tell you—

00:40:06

Jesse

Promo

[Stifling laughter] London, Ontario, Canada.

00:40:07

John

Promo

No, no! London, England! And I wish I could tell you—I wish I could tell you that this September, we were going personally to London again. But I can't. 'Caaause we're not there yet. But I am excited to tell you that the London Podcast Festival is happening! It's happening at Kings Place, both in person and virtually, and virtually, we will be joining you once again.

That's right, the Judge John Hodgman podcast will virtually join the London Podcast Festival on Thursday, September 9th. And boy, oh boy, are there a lot of timezones involved, Jesse. We're talking about on the West Coast, 12:30 PM. On the East Coast, 3:30 PM. Which simultaneously—[stifles laughter]—in—in, uh, the UK, which is British Summer Time, 8:30 PM.

Tickets are on sale now. And you can get more info and those tickets at KingsPlace.co.uk/londonpodfest. What a fest that is! Right, Jesse?

00:41:03

Jesse

Promo

Oh, it's a joy. KingsPlace.co.uk/londonpodfest. We're so glad to be part of the festival. Uh, not only because it's always a joy to go there to London, but because it's a joy this year to support a festival, make sure it keeps running for next year, the next time we can travel! So we're glad to be part of this—this great thing. By the way, John—

00:41:25

John

Promo

Yes.

00:41:26

Jesse

Promo

If anyone out there is confused about timezones for this show. You mentioned Thursday, September 9th—

00:41:31

John

Promo

Right.

00:41:32

Jesse

Promo

—12:30 PM Pacific, 3:30 Eastern, 8:30 PM British Summer Time. If people don't know already about British Summer Time. Um—

[Someone very quietly stifles laughter.]

It runs, uh, from September 8th to September 10th.

00:41:48

John

Promo

Right.

00:41:49

Jesse

Promo

British Summer Time.

00:41:50

John

Promo

That's the official British summer. We're getting right there.

00:41:52

Jesse

Promo

Yeah.

00:41:53

John

Promo

Hoo, it's gonna be a scorcher, right there in the middle.

00:41:54

Jesse

Promo

Mm-hm.

00:41:55

John

Promo

September 9th, right in high mid-summer.

00:41:58

Jesse

Promo

Yeah.

00:41:59

John

Promo

8:30 PM British Summer Time.

00:42:00

Jesse

Promo

KingsPlace.co.uk/londonpodfest.

00:42:04

John

Promo

What else is going on, Jesse?

00:42:06

Jesse

Promo

Well, you know that I host NPR's… legendary, least successful program, Bullseye with Jesse Thorn.

[John snorts.]

Uh, you know—

00:42:13

John

Promo

Well, we're gonna change that. We're gonna change that today.

00:42:15

Jesse

Promo

Thank you. You know our friend Tom Scharpling, from The Best Show? Author of the wonderful memoir It Never Ends?

00:42:21

John

Promo

I absolutely do know. I was just listening to "Rock, Rot & Rule" in the car with my son.

[Jesse and John both sigh.]

What a—what a—what a grand fella. What an incredible personality. What a deep person, too, especially as revealed in this new… highly revealing and personal memoir, It Never Ends, by Tom Scharpling.

00:42:37

Jesse

Promo

Yeah.

00:42:38

John

Promo

What about him, Jesse? I have established I know him. Tell me something new.

00:42:42

Jesse

Promo

I had a really deep, and moving, and beautiful, and very funny conversation with him for Bullseye with Jesse Thorn, and it is out this week in your podcast app, so go search for Bullseye. Subscribe to Bullseye. Um, listen to that interview with Tom.

You can also listen to—you know, we lost one of my favorite rappers of all time, Gift of Gab, just recently. From the great underground rap group Blackalicious, and we went back and played an excerpt of an interview I did with Blackalicious in 2005, and I—I wrote a sort of remembrance of Gab, and what he meant to me. He was actually the first person—he and Chief Xcel of Blackalicious, the first people I ever interviewed on microphone.

00:43:22

John

Promo

Wow! I didn't know that.

00:43:23

Jesse

Promo

Yeah. Back at my college radio station, KZSC, with my friend Abel Arias.

00:43:29

John

Promo

Everyone within the sound of my voice knows that I met Jesse because he interviewed me for my first book, The Areas of My Expertise. And right then, at that very moment, did I hear the voice of this—I believe nine-year-old at the time.

00:43:41

Jesse

Promo

Mm-hm.

00:43:42

John

Promo

And I was like, "This nine-year-old is one of the… smartest, most best-prepared, thoughtful, most listen-y of interviewers that I have ever had the pleasure to speak on the phone with."

And that's why I got to know Jesse, and got to make this podcast. If you are missing out on Bullseye on NPR, or in your podcasts, or wherever you get Bullseye with Jesse Thorn, you're missing out on some of the best conversations around.

So please. If you've listened before, listen again. If you've never listened before, go do it. And while you're listening… why don't you rate it? Why don't you give it five stars? Why don't you review it? Why don't you tell about five or fifteen friends about it? There's no reason in the world you don't wanna share these incredible conversations that are happening each and every week on NPR's Bullseye with Jesse Thorn.

00:44:27

Jesse

Promo

Let's get back to the docket!

00:44:28

Sound Effect

Transition

[Three gavel bangs.]

00:44:31

Jesse

Host

Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. We have a case here from Athena in Tampa Bay, Florida:

"I maintain that hotdogs are sausages! And as such—"

00:44:41

John

Host

Oh, boy…

00:44:43

Jesse

Host

[Stifles laughter.]

"—I should be able to use them interchangeably in any meal in which you would otherwise use any other sausage. My husband Mark laughs at me, and argues they are not interchangeable.

Hotdogs are salty tubes of processed meat. Just like every other sausage. Except hotdogs are blander!"

[John snorts.]

"Use case: Our kid hates every sausage—"

By the way. I—this truly—like, the transition to the phrase "use case"? I can only imagine Athena giving a PowerPoint presentation.

[John and Jesse laugh.]

"Use case: Our kid hates every sausage except hotdogs, so I've been known to give him hotdogs at breakfast when he refuses any other type of protein. Or the other day, I put a hotdog on a waffle to make a breakfast sandwich on my way out of the house.

I don't force Mark to use hotdogs in this way! And they aren't my first choice of quality sausage. But I would like an injunction on the ribbing I receive for using hotdogs and sausages interchangeably."

00:45:54

John

Host

First of all, I would just like to say that one of the nice things—and indeed, similarities—between hotdogs and breakfast sausages is that there are vegetarian equivalents of both. And maybe even vegan. I would have to double-check that. But certainly vegetarian equivalents of both that are essentially indistinguishable from the non-vegetarian version.

Like, I've been amazed at the vegetarian hotdogs that I've had. And I have been amazed at the vege—the Gimme Lean brand? A soy-based, uh, breakfast sausage? Mm, mm, mm, terrific.

And there's a reason for that! Because as you point out, hotdogs are salty tubes of processed… meat, traditionally, but it can also be meat substitute. As are, uh, breakfast links! They are salty tubes of protein that are seasoned in a specific way. You can really emulate those things in a vegetarian option very easily. Because the sausage itself is a—is essentially a vehicle for the spice and the flavoring that is used.

And in this case, Athena? The spice and the flavorings are very different! Hotdog is smoked. It's got a smoky flavor to it! A breakfast link—sagey. Smoky on one hand, sagey on the other. Very different. They are intrinsically different. A hotdog is not a sandwich, nor is it a breakfast sausage.

00:47:24

John

Host

Now! If you got nothing else at hand, and your kids wanna eat a hotdog of some kind in the morning for breakfast, that's fine. But they are not interchangeable ingredients.

If your kid hates every sausage except hotdogs, I hope that that will change in your kid's life. But for now, go ahead. Feed him a hotdog in the morning.

But accept your ribbing; they're not the same.

00:47:43

Sound Effect

Sound Effect

[Three gavel bangs.]

00:47:45

Jesse

Host

Yeah, as someone with children with, uh… [stifling laughter] opposing picky food habits—[chuckles]—uh, who doesn't wanna cook four dinners every night, um, I agree with you entirely that, uh, you feed your children what they're willing to eat. Uh, and do your best to expand their palates over time.

That said, I think it would be inhumane to ask Mark not to at least gently rib Athena for putting a hotdog in a waffle. [Laughs.]

00:48:15

John

Host

I actually—

00:48:16

Jesse

Host

[Laughing] I mean, I'm not against her doing it! I just think it's a funny idea!

00:48:21

John

Host

I think it's kind of amazing.

00:48:24

Jesse

Host

[Laughing] It's great!

00:48:25

John

Host

I was just re-reading that part of the letter, [stifles laughter] because I was double-checking my—my hotdog and sausage lore on Wikipedia as you were reading. I was like, "Oh, I forgot about the fact that Athena put a hotdog on a waffle!"

I—I order no ribbing. That's—

[Jesse laughs.]

You've invented something incredible.

00:48:42

Jesse

Host

I'm picturing Athena—[stifles laughter]—as a middle manager in a serious business. And she walks into a big meeting in front of a bunch of people who work under her. And the big boss is—is sitting next to her. And, uh, the big boss says, uh, "What do you got there?"

And she says, "Oh, a hotdog in a waffle."

[Jesse and John laugh.]

00:49:05

John

Host

I think—I think right now, a menu development person for some big fast food chain is hearing, "hotdog on a waffle," and it's gonna be announced on Twitter in about five seconds—

[Jesse laughs.]

—and then it's gonna be covered on Doughboys—

00:49:18

Jesse

Host

Yeah.

00:49:19

John

Host

—and everyone's gonna make money but us.

00:49:20

Jesse

Host

You know what? I'm—I'm making an amendment to my scenario. Everything in the scenario's the same; she sits down, she's got the employees, the big boss is sitting behind her.

[John snorts.]

The big boss says to her, "What do you got there?"

And she says, "Breakfast sandwich."

[Jesse and maybe John laugh.]

00:49:38

John

Host

Jennifer Marmor, remind me. Did I reveal the secret of my new burger concept? I never will. I never will; I'm not gonna let it get out there like hotdog in a waffle! But Jesse Thorn?

00:49:48

Jesse

Host

Yeah.

00:49:49

John

Host

I'll tell you off-mic. I've got a new burger concept—and this can be a vegetarian burger!

00:49:52

Jesse

Host

Mm-hm.

00:49:54

John

Host

Doesn't have to be a—doesn't have to be a—a, you know…

[Exhales sharply.]

It's gonna change everything. Joel, did I tell you my new burger concept?

00:50:00

Joel

Guest

No, but I like the name "waffle dog."

00:50:03

John

Host

Waffle dog!

00:50:04

Joel

Guest

Mm-hm.

00:50:05

Jesse

Host

I like that as a name for a dog!

00:50:08

John

Host

Write that down—write that down, Athena, and mail it to yourself immediately. Retain the trademark on the waffle dog both as a breakfast sandwich and a dog. Name.

00:50:15

Jesse

Host

Yeah.

00:50:16

John

Host

But I'll tell you—I'll—but I—I won't tell you the secret of my new burger concept, 'cause I really believe in it. But I will say that just as there was a part of the Micky Dolenz story that Joel didn't tell initially, I just realized there's a big part of my Harold Bloom urinal story that I didn't tell.

00:50:32

Jesse

Host

Mm-hm?

00:50:33

John

Host

I'll save that for someday down the road.

00:50:35

Jesse

Host

Great.

00:50:36

Joel

Guest

"Tales from the Urinal."

[Some combination of John, Jesse, and/or Joel laugh quietly.]

00:50:39

Jesse

Host

By the way, you don't have to—you don't have to tell me about your burger concept; I already know it's, "Put some Worcestershire sauce in there." [Laughs.]

00:50:46

John

Host

This burger concept—it's not for everyone—

00:50:47

Jesse

Host

All burger concepts are just, "Put some Worcestershire sauce in there."

00:50:50

John

Host

No, Jesse. Do you wanna hear what it is?

00:50:53

Jesse

Host

Yeah, I do.

00:50:54

John

Host

Alright. Jennifer Marmor, bleep this out. It's not just that. You put a—

[Beeep.]

—on, and—

[Beeep.]

—and a slice of—

[Beeeep.]

00:51:02

Jesse

Host

Holy cow.

00:51:04

John

Host

Yeah.

00:51:05

Jesse

Host

So you put Worcestershire sauce in the burger?

00:51:07

John

Host

NO! No, there's no Worcestershire sauce at all, Jesse, you—!

00:51:10

Jesse

Host

[Cackles.]

Do we have any letters this week, John?

00:51:15

John

Host

Yes, of course we do. [Stifles laughter.] That's all I got this week; I got no disputes, only letters. And they were always a delight to read. Especially when they're maybe 1 or 200 words long. Like this letter from Rick:

"Dear Judge John Hodgman,

Just listened to the 'Deep Cuts' docket-clearing episode."

That's the one where we cleared the docket from about a decade ago. Stuff lingering in my mailbox.

"And you mentioned the nostalgia of going to the Clam Box on Wollaston Beach in Quincy, Massachusetts."

[Someone laughs quietly.]

"I lived in Concord, Mass for a couple of years in my youth, and I would go mackerel-fishing off Plum Island with my father and brother."

Boy, this is turning into a whole short story.

00:51:53

John

Host

"I had vivid food memories of fried clams from the Clam Box being a life-changing part of that experience. My daughter and her family now live in Brookline, Massachusetts."

That's one letter short of Brooklinen. My hometown. Brookline, Massachusetts.

"Just a block and a half from my old stomping grounds of Redacted Elementary School. On a visit to them, and to finish this longish story—"

Don't worry, Rick. You're no Ray. You're doing great.

"—I made my adult children make the trek to the Clam Box. …Which we couldn't find, initially. And then we had to stand in a long line to order, and we got way too many fried clams, only to have all of us moderately disappointed in the experience.

My entire family was annoyed at me for making them participate in the nostalgia that was my love of these fried clams. And we now refer to food memories as one of two options: 'Clam Box good'… or 'actually good'."

[Jesse and John laugh.]

00:52:51

John

Host

"I've learned my lesson, and rightly now recall your caution that nostalgia is a toxic impulse.

Signed,

Rick."

Good job, Rick! Clam Box good… or actually good. It's an important thing!

Jesse, you ever take someone to a—a restaurant that you care a lot about, that meant something to you in your past, and you realize as you're eating with them, "It's not that great"?

00:53:11

Jesse

Host

I'm terrified—absolutely terrified—that one day I'll walk into El Farolito in the Outer Mission, and I'll sit down with somebody who's not from San Francisco, and we'll eat a burrito. And they'll say, "This is not that great."

00:53:26

John

Host

[Whispering] Yeah. I know how you feel.

00:53:28

Jesse

Host

You know, one time our colleague Ben Partridge—

00:53:30

John

Host

Yeah.

00:53:31

Jesse

Host

—from Beef And Dairy Network?

00:53:32

John

Host

Beef And Dairy Network, of course.

00:53:34

Jesse

Host

This guy… is an ice cream fanatic.

00:53:37

John

Host

Right!

00:53:38

Jesse

Host

He loves—he loves Magnum bars.

00:53:40

John

Host

That's a—that's a very heavy ice cream bar.

00:53:43

Jesse

Host

Yeah. Everyone should listen to Beef And Dairy Network. Amazing, brilliant show. Anyway—

00:53:47

John

Host

I just realized something! Ice cream is dairy! He's an expert in it!

00:53:51

Jesse

Host

I know.

He comes to visit in Los Angeles. He and I go to LACMA together. Just a couple of buds hanging out. And I tell him—

00:53:59

John

Host

Los Angeles County Museum of Art.

00:54:01

Jesse

Host

Yeah. So I tell—I tell Ben Partridge, "You and me, buddy. We're going to the Food 4 Less… and we're gonna get some It's-Its. Because you are an—"

00:54:11

John

Host

Oh, no. Oh, no.

00:54:12

Jesse

Host

"You're an ice cream nut!" This guy's an ice cream fanatic; he loves Magnum bars.

00:54:17

John

Host

Yeah! He's about ice cream the way that other Rick is about film.

00:54:20

Jesse

Host

Yeah. So we—we get these ice cream bars, we're sitting in my station wagon in the underground garage of this Food 4 Less.

00:54:28

John

Host

Perfect ice cream–eating context.

00:54:30

Jesse

Host

You know what Ben Partridge says?

00:54:32

John

Host

I don't even wanna know.

00:54:34

Jesse

Host

"The ice cream's not that good." Is what he says.

00:54:37

John

Host

[Exhales sharply; whispers] Wow.

00:54:38

Jesse

Host

It's about the total experience, Ben Partridge!

[Exaggerated, geographically broad British accent] "Oh, right! I'm Ben Partridge!"

[John stifles laughter.]

"I'm from England! I love Magnum bars! I'm actually Welsh!"

[Impression stops.]

00:54:47

John

Host

Uncanny impersonation.

00:54:48

Jesse

Host

Go suck a lemon, Ben Partridge of the Beef And Dairy Network, possibly the best show on all of Maximum Fun!

00:54:55

John

Host

Yeah, his ancestry is Welsh, he lives in England, they make ice cream with lard!

00:55:00

Jesse

Host

[Ben impression returns.]

"I'm a right good Magnum eater!"

[John stifles laughter.]

[Ben impression stops.]

This guy. Ben Partridge…

00:55:07

John

Host

You know, the other week I went back to New York from Maine, 'cause I had to work with David Rees on the secret project. And before I went, I was so excited, I had everybody I knew in town over to try this new burger concept, and I was really nervous, 'cause what if they didn't like it? What if they were like, "Yeahh, it's fine!"?

Do you know what they all said?

00:55:25

Jesse

Host

What?

00:55:26

John

Host

"Yeahh, it's fine!"

00:55:27

Jesse

Host

Oh no!

00:55:29

John

Host

Yeah. They said—no, they also said, "No! It's good!" Which is—ugh—the worst.

00:55:34

Jesse

Host

Yeah. Even worse.

00:55:35

John

Host

But I still believe in it!

00:55:37

Jesse

Host

Every great artist, misunderstood in their time.

00:55:38

John

Host

I believe in this burger concept.

00:55:40

Jesse

Host

[Ben impression returns.]

"I'm Ben Partridge! I'm from Worcestershire! Which is why we all put Worcestershire in our burgers!"

[Beat.]

00:55:50

John

Host

Jesse, is the docket—

00:55:51

Jesse

Host

[Australian now] "G'day, mate!"

00:55:52

John

Host

[Stifling laughter] Is the docket clear?

00:55:53

Jesse

Host

[Impressions have stopped.]

The docket's clear; that's it for another episode of Judge John Hodgman. This episode, edited by Val Moffat, and our producer is Jennifer Marmor. Our engineer in Maine is Joel Mann, Program and Operations Manager at WERU Community Radio in Orland, Maine.

You can listen to WERU at WERU.org, and you can follow Joel on Instagram! At @themainemann, M-A-I-N-E-M-A-N-N.

You can follow John and me on Twitter at @JesseThorn, @hodgman. We're on Instagram at @judgejohnhodgman. Make sure to hashtag your Judge John Hodgman Tweets #JJHo, and check out the Maximum Fun subreddit to discuss this episode.

Submit your cases at MaximumFun.org/jjho, or email hodgman@maximumfun.org. We will talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

00:56:50

Sound Effect

Transition

[Three gavel bangs.]

00:56:53

John

Host

Oh, hey, surprise, it's me!

[Briefly singing] Judge John Hodgmaaan post-credits sequeeence!

[Stops singing.]

Are you surprised? You shouldn't be! I'm doing it pretty much all the time! Well, remember that whole story I told you about standing at a urinal next to the famous literary critic Harold Blume when I was an undergraduate at Yale University, a four-year accredited college in Southern Connecticut? And about how I only told half the story?

Well, the rest of the story… will wait! 'Cause I'm—it's actually so embarrassing I'm not sure that I'm gonna be able to tell it. So… stay tuned to a future Judge John Hodgman and, uh, maybe I'll let this one go.

But in the meantime… thank you very much for listening.

It's like when you saw Howard the Duck at the end of Guardians of the Galaxy. Like, "That's great! But that's really all we get?"

That's all you get. Howard the Duck. Goodbye.

00:57:35

Music

Transition

A cheerful ukulele chord.

00:57:36

Speaker 1

Guest

MaximumFun.org.

00:57:38

Speaker 2

Guest

Comedy and culture.

00:57:39

Speaker 3

Guest

Artist owned—

00:57:40

Speaker 4

Guest

—audience supported.