Transcript
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under The Stairs. Chill, grooving instrumentals.
oliver
Hello, I’m Oliver Wang.
morgan
And I’m Morgan Rhodes. You’re listening to Heat Rocks. Every episode we invite a guest to join us to talk about a heat rock. You know, fire, flammables, an album that bumps eternally. And today we will be deep-diving together into an album celebrating its 20th anniversary this year, Lovers Rock by the one and only Sade.
music
“By Your Side” off the album Lovers Rock by Sade. Tender, soft rock. You think I'd leave your side, baby You know me better than that Think I'd leave you down when you're down on your knees [Music fades as dialogue resumes, playing quietly for several more seconds and then ending]
morgan
Even as I say these words now, it’s hard to believe that Lovers Rock, the fifth album from Stuart Matthewman, Andrew Hale, Paul Spencer Denman, and Sade Adu, turns 20 next year. I know. Some of you guys are getting a lot older. By the time Epic Records rolled this one out, it had been a minute, 8 years since a mermaid sang to us about tattoos and kisses and cherished days and pearls. And while a hiatus that long might be concerning for most other artists, those of us who love Sade already knew. Well, you can’t hurry love. No, you just gotta wait. And Lovers Rock was worth its weight in gold. To be sure, Lovers Rock is certainly an album about love for lovers, and not just because of the three songs on the album with “love” in the title. No, this is about real love, shouts to Mary, love when it’s complicated, when it’s pretty, when it hurts, when it doesn’t end well, when it lingers, when you suffer for it. This is grown folks business, brought to us courtesy of the band well-known for their plush arrangements and the chanteuse well known for her interpretation of them. About Lovers Rock there is a heaviness, a melancholy, and a focus on other matters as well. “Immigrant” uses biblical allusion to talk racial tension. “Slave Song” is an awareness of the past, hope for the future, a prayer. All of this, all of the tracks carried to us by a sun-drenched, dubby, slow-wind, soulful blend of torch song and testimonies. Because somewhere between Love Deluxe and Soldiers of Love, we found this album and the voice of Sade reminding us again, that all things considered, love isn’t always ordinary, but love is stronger than pride.
music
“By Your Side” plays again. And if only you could see into me [Music fades as dialogue resumes.]
oliver
To talk about Lovers Rock on its 20th anniversary, we invited DJ, producer, and artist Trackademicks, an OG from Alameda, shout-out to Bay Area islands. Trackademicks has been holding down the left coast for 15 years and running, building his rep first through his deliciously soulful remixes, to the production work that he’s done for everyone from Mistah F.A.B. to J*Davey to my boy Lyrics Born to Teedra Moses and Kamaiyah. His most recent releases are from the early winter, including the five-track EP Sunset Saturdays, as well as a seven-song LP, New Game he did with long-time creative partner, 1-O.A.K., under the duo name 2 Player Co-Op. New Game notably includes a bonus cut that seems apropos to mention today, a remix of Sade’s breakout hit, “No Ordinary Love.”
music
“No Ordinary Love (Remix)” off the album New Game by 2 Player Co-Op. Mid-tempo, smooth singing over an electronic backing. Didn't I tell you What I believe? Did somebody say that A love like that won't last? Didn't I give you All that I've got to… [Music fades as dialogue resumes]
oliver
Trackademicks, welcome to Heat Rocks.
trackademicks
Wow. That’s the best intro I’ve ever had. [Morgan laughs.] Now, I know you’ve heard that before, but yes. Thank you. It’s great to be here.
oliver
What do you remember about Lovers Rock when it first came out in 2000?
trackademicks
Man, Lovers Rock. So when it came out, I remember I was in college, 2000, I was at USF. My dorm room actually had a poster up on the wall. I think the thing that rings the most when I think about Lovers Rock is that I had been a Sade fan. She’s one of those people whose music has always been in my blood, I feel like, just being a pure 80s baby. Um, you know, my mom playing the—the uh, Smooth Operator when it came out, and then you know, all the other albums that came subsequently. Uh, I feel like I had been enjoying Sade passively for years, and so in high school, after the Best Of, when that came out, I personally started to really get into Sade. And then Lovers Rock was important because that was a time where I could participate, like as an actual fan in real time, not always going back. So I think that was the biggest thing. There was a lot of things surrounding it. Me and my friend group, we all were into Sade, but I think that was the thing. It’s almost like very pent-up energy, like, “We love Sade, we love Sade,” and never had had an album since we’d been like, music kids.
oliver
Right, because this is the point in her career where she was putting out maybe an album a decade. [Morgan affirms.] And so there’d be long, long distances between them. So, how did Lovers Rock hit you compared to, let’s say the stuff that you had grown up listening to from her 80s career?
trackademicks
Right. So, you know, I actually forget how it laid out. I believe “By Your Side” came out.
oliver
I believe that was the first single, correct.
trackademicks
Yeah, and I was excited for that. And it was chill. It was like, one of those chill tracks. And then I think I was like, “Okay, let me see what else is gonna happen.” And when it dropped, there was definitely some heat on the album, right? [Morgan affirms.] And it was—it’s unlike—it was unlike all of the other albums that had come before. Everything from—yeah, all the albums to like, Remix Deluxe and the Best Of, you know, had a certain element of like, production. This one was noticeably stripped down to where—
oliver
Super minimalist.
trackademicks
Yeah, it was noticeably stripped down, like a lot more guitar. I loved it, but it’s definitely one of those albums that you had to like, listen to. It was—Sade’s music is all personal, but this is really like, a personal album. It felt more intimate to me.
music
“Every Word” off the album Lovers Rock by Sade. Chill, smooth, soft rock. And every word you said In there every word, oh, oh, oh, oh [Music fades as dialogue resumes.]
oliver
Morgan, how about you? What did you think of Lovers Rock when you first heard it?
morgan
You know what, and I’m glad that Trackademicks picked this one, because of course I’m gonna go back and listen to it. Um, you know, she had come out so strong for the first 8 years of her career. Promise, Diamond Life, Stronger Than Pride, Love Deluxe. And then it was like, 8 years of like, “Yo.” But thank god this happened in the time before social media, so no one was up on her, Tweeting her like, “Where’s it at, where’s it at?” [Oliver laughs.] You know what I mean? “What’s up with Sade, where you been?” Right? So—and she’s one of those artists that I discovered with Lovers Rock that it doesn’t matter how long she stays away, she’s gonna be fire. My first impressions were, “Well, this is different.” I mean, immediately I’m like, “Okay.” I felt like it was a concept album, not just because of the title of this rock, which suggested this is what they’re gonna be giving, but because it sounded different than everything, to me, connected with Sade. Voice the same, still husky, sexy, but it was the first time that I thought, “Okay, this is not—this is not a Sweetback production album.” Although it was the same people, it didn’t have that. You know what I’m saying, about the Sweetback sound? [Trackademicks and Oliver both affirm.] This one was—this album forced me to listen to everything else, every single instrument, in a way that I packaged everything together as Sweetback on all the aforementioned albums. And I was happily surprised with this. I don’t know if the critics were, but for me, it was love at first listen.
oliver
I was struck especially on songs like “By Your Side” to a certain extent, but I think the first one that really, really um, made an impression on this note was “Immigrant.”
music
“Immigrant” off the album Lovers Rock by Sade. Quiet, intense, soft rock/hip hop/soul. Coming from where he did He was turned away from every door like Joseph To even the toughest among us That would be too much [Music fades out as dialogue resumes.]
morgan
Yup. And this, to me, sounds a lot of 90s hip hop soul. Like, that could have been anybody, just the beat, that could have been anybody coming out the gate. That could’ve been Mary J. Blige, that could’ve been Jade. That’s a typical drum beat pattern that we hear, and actually “Immigrant” is one of my favorite songs on here.
trackademicks
Yeah, I do love that song.
oliver
This might be just a small sample size, because the only two places that I’ve lived over the last 30 years have either been Los Angeles or The Bay. But I feel like all the biggest fans of Sade I know are all from the Bay Area, and I never really thought about why that is until now, sitting here with a Bay Area native in the room. Um, you know, besides just the people I knew and other DJs, I was also thinking about how Droop-E, 40 Sign, put out a whole EP of just him rapping over Sade loops, called—
trackademicks
BLVCK Diamond Life?
oliver
Yeah, BLVCK Diamond Life, which was really cool. That was about 10 years ago.
music
“I’m Loaded” off the album BLVCK Diamond Life by Droop-E. Hip hop with smooth vocals. Get off my line ‘Cause I, ‘cause I, ‘cause I, ‘cause I I’m loaded Don’t know where point this thing [Music fades out as Oliver speaks]
oliver
So what is the Bay Area-Sade connection?
trackademicks
I’m—man. I feel like you know, the first time I ever went to London, which was ‘05, I felt at home there, too. And I think it’s the way that it’s a melting pot. Like, people always say a lot of cities are a melting pot of a lot of different people, but the way those different people interact with each other, it reminds me of—London reminded me of home a little bit. And I think culturally, that foundation like, um, everybody kind of interacting—’cause, you know, the Bay. People always talk about the Bay as being a specific place. Those who are from, we always talk about it. [Oliver affirms.] Just being super cross-cultural. It’s not just about color, it’s about economics, it’s about social. Everything about the Bay, it connects, right? And so from being in London, I could see that you know, with just the immigrant populations, whether it was you know, South Asian or West Indian, you know, there’s different make-ups there, but I feel like you—you have diverse populations with a—kind of like a backbone or I mean, an undercurrent of activism a little bit. [Morgan and Oliver both affirm multiple times.] And that—that right there is enough to make crazy art happen, and I feel like you know, Bay, protesting is a second job for a lot of folks, you know? You ever spent time in Berkeley or San Francisco, you know. And I feel like Sade um, they—they’re not in your face with it, but they’ve always taken a stand with their music. There’s always like a bigger—a bigger reason they’re doing music. It’s all—it’s very personal, but it’s also very worldly, you know?
morgan
And Sade sort of disarms you with her delivery and the production. ‘Cause you know, you’re vibing along, and then she hits you with “papa’s been laid up, mama’s been laid up,” and you’re like, “Okay. Okay.” Or “there was a woman in Somalia.” When they take it there, they always have been activists. I do think that Sade—Sade’s sound is a very West Coast sound, both Southern and Northern California. It’s very vibey and it’s very laid back.
oliver
Very laid back.
morgan
And I think it appeals to just the best coast lifestyle.
trackademicks
Yeah, well that—that in particular, I specifically like Sade because the chord progressions, but also like, the light jazz. They kind of—the soul jazz, R&B, but the basslines? The bass lines are actually fire. And you can hear like a lot of Bay Area rappers have sampled them over the years, rappers in general, um but like, the basslines are fire, and so there’s that mob in there. There’s always like a, you know, we like the mobs, so.
music
“Slave Song” off the album Lovers Rock by Sade. Mid-tempo contemporary soul. So many times I prayed So many times I´ve prayed for you Prayed for you [Music fades out as dialogue resumes.]
morgan
“Slave Song” is actually probably one of my favorites, if not my favorite off this album. I like it because it is so—just like the title track, it is like, “This is what the sound is, in case you were unclear. This is what we’re going for.” And to me, it says to me that this sound, this album, is a departure from the Sade that we’ve known. It’s no less intimate, right, but what we’re missing is the sensuality that came with Diamond Life, and Love Deluxe that I don’t imagine, although I see all the slow wine, all that stuff, but we’re missing the sensuality. Not that that’s a bad thing, but I think it brings another vibe, you know, another feel to this. And I love that, it’s very, to me, it’s just so dubby and reggae and a little bit of ska to me. That to me, I was like—I don’t know if I’m gonna come away from this conversation saying this is my favorite album, because that’s sacrilegious, but what I love is that I was surprised that she went this way, and went in this direction.
trackademicks
You know, retrospectively, looking at it, I don’t know if I am surprised. I think this is the reason I love Sade, is like rooted in sophisti-pop. A lot of people like, “What is that?” That’s actually my favorite genre.
oliver
That’s a good term.
trackademicks
So, sophisti-pop is really like, one of my favorite genres. British, mid-80s music, soul, jazz, funk, a lot of—you know, it was just popping out there with that. So you know, groups like the Style Council, um, there’s tons of groups. But they came from that, after punk, and then kind of like—they had this like, very sophisti-pop sound on first and second albums, then they started getting big in the states, R&B, and then t—I feel like the culmination is Love Deluxe, where it’s just—with the, um—the radio format, smooth jazz, you know what I mean? [Morgan affirms.] That helped catapult them out here in the states, to take over the way they did, um, but it also—I feel it helped inform fans. Like, “Oh, this is—this is this group that—they came from this,” and kind of helped mow them to the point where Love Deluxe is like, the most satin, sultry, smooth, S-word [Laughs] band, you know. To the point where my biggest memory of that album was when Indecent Proposal was always—was just everywhere, because they had the song in the soundtrack.
music
“No Ordinary Love” off the album Love Deluxe by Sade. Tender R&B. ...baby This is no ordinary love No ordinary love This is no ordinary love No ordinary love [Music fades out as dialogue resumes]
trackademicks
So you had—you go up to that, and then there’s a big break, and coming back the way she did. Looking back on it, and myself aging, not being too far from the age that she was when she dropped Lovers Rock now, and I think about how much I’ve changed in my career, and how many things I liked. And also culturally, you know, what has informed my music, them—they’re kind of going back to, I guess culturally what London is, whereas like, it’s a lot of West Indian and—but they never really explored it the way that the rest of the bands in their you know, city might have.
morgan
‘Cause it came—when Smooth Operator came out, I heard that on like, The Wave. I heard that on a like—it was accepted as like, a smooth jazz jam. And then that whole album had—had jazzy elements, and then I heard it on a lot of R&B stations. Lovers Rock was something that I didn’t think was gonna be a radio-friendly album, and I didn’t think I was gonna hear a lot. To your point about sort of the British sound, this album, to me, reminds me a lot of Massive Attack. [Oliver and Trackademicks both steadfastly agree.] One of the first things I thought about, I was like, “Oh my god, ding, ding, ding. Here it is.” So I think, to your point, that whole sound was coming out of Britain, that mix of Lovers Rock and reggae and dub is all present on here. And it was very sexy to me, and worth the wait.
oliver
Right. As we’ve been talking about, you know, this is 20 years on since Lovers Rock first came out, and I was trying to think about what it is I hear differently now than then. You know, and I don’t know how it is for the two of you. This is my favorite Sade album, and I think in large part because it has three of my all-time favorite Sade songs, which would be “By Your Side”, the title track, and especially “All About Our Love”, which is just A-1 in terms of, for my personal Sade discography. And what really strikes me, and I was thinking also back to our episode with Ernest Hardy from, I guess almost two years ago, where we were talking about Love Deluxe with Ernest, and it’s just—you know, you can’t talk about Sade without talking about—and I mean in this case, the singer, not the band—but you can’t talk about her without talking about affect. And of course, you could spend—we could spend hours and hours just talking about the qualities of her voice. Maybe we—
trackademicks
We should.
oliver
[Trackademicks and Morgan both affirm multiple times while Oliver speaks.] But this album, I think, because it is so stripped down, because it is so minimalistic, it really, to me, just helps you absorb what is, to me, like the essence of her voice and what she’s able to do with it. And Morgan, you were saying earlier about how this may not have been the critic’s favorite. Now, I don’t think is anybody’s number one Sade choice in terms of a consensus number one. And I think partly it’s because if you look at reviews from back then, people had a hard time figuring out what to say about this besides, “Oh, it’s a new Sade album. Sounds like the old Sade albums. It’s really good, and check for it.” But they seem to have had a hard time figuring what else to say, which—and I don’t—I did not review this album back then, so I don’t remember what I would have said, but it just strikes me as so strange that you can’t find anything beyond like, “She sounds really consistent.” [Morgan laughs.] And “there’s some strummed guitar on here.” You know? ‘Cause to me, this is such a beautiful, sublime LP.
morgan
Yeah, and I—and I heard, in prep for this chat, I heard an interview that she did on CNN, and she was saying—and this was around when Lovers Rock came out—and she said, “I have like, a deep, husky voice.” And she said, “I don’t do a lot of gymnastics.” And I think, being a Black woman, sort of with one foot in soul and one foot in jazz, I think there’s a tendency for us to want to describe your voice in a certain way. [Trackademicks affirms.] And there’s nobody that sounds like Sade, that’s one. And I think that’s why people were stuck. Who can you compare her to? Who could you compare it to in ‘88, ’89 that was huge?
oliver
I was gonna ask you, as the resident Anita Baker-ologist in this room, I feel like her and Anita get compared most often.
morgan
I think the difference is, one—and just go with me here, because these are probably like, Fisher-Price music analytical terms— [Trackademicks and Oliver laugh.] But I think that you hear a lot of the jazz-y, the true jazz standard singers that Anita Baker was influenced by. So I think she um, the way she phrases is very pure jazz, right?
oliver
A lot of inflection.
morgan
Right? Where I don’t hear that, I don’t hear that then in Sade. And I think that Sade is—she has her own sound and her own, unique—I don’t think she’s trying to inflect a certain way, it just is what it is. I think there’s a raspiness and a weariness in her voice. Not tired, but there’s a place where she doesn’t push herself out of this—out of this—out of this one area, and that’s what I like about her. I wouldn’t compare her and Anita Baker, because number one, you’re missing the rasp and the husk, and I know what Sade is saying. That’s why I love her pen game. We’ve talked about this before. [Oliver confirms.] There’s a few albums where I didn’t know what Anita Baker was saying, I just knew it was fire. [Oliver laughs uproariously.] I was like, “I don’t know what she’s saying right here, but you know what? This is fire right here, you know what I mean?” We had to listen to it over because how she—how she rides certain words, you’d be like, “I know this is deep. I don’t know what’s being said, but it’s deep.”
trackademicks
Yes. Literally, you—as you say that about Anita Baker, I’m thinking about um, what is it, uh—I hear this one line. [Sings a wavering note.] And that’s all I need from her.
crosstalk
Morgan: But do you know what she was saying? Trackademicks: No. Morgan: Exactly! Trackademicks: I don’t, and that’s— Morgan: That’s my point, babe. Trackademicks: —that’s what’s funny. Morgan: That’s my point.
trackademicks
The thing—well here’s—Sade, I mean—well, about the comparison, I don’t think they should be compared off top. Because they were—they were on the same formatted radio stations at the time, and have the same fans, but they’re doing different things. And uh, I know Anita Baker’s, you know, from Detroit, informed by like, Black American music. And I feel like the mix that the band Sade brings to the table, it’s a—it’s—like I say, the city that they’re from, there’s so many different elements, and they played differently. And if you put their voices together, that’s not where you’re getting the bulk of the jazz from Sade. You’re hearing Stuart in the bath—[Correcting] in the bathroom? You’re hearing Stuart in the background play a saxophone the way he does, and the chords that they play, and the way they play the electric piano and the bass. To the point, you’re hearing all their instrumental songs, uh, and like there’s so much jazz there? Like, it’s contemporary jazz music. Um, and so they’re in that category, but if you listen to Sade—um, Helen sing, it’s really prose. Her songs don’t even rhyme, you know. The majority of what she sings doesn’t rhyme. It’s very concise, it’s—like you say, she doesn’t really break out, um—her voice, she uses her voice as an instrument. It’s not doing a lot of backflips and cartwheels.
oliver
Right. Yeah, she’s not belting. She’s not a sanger.
trackademicks
Sanger, yeah.
morgan
Right. No flat-footed singing. No flat-footed singing. [Oliver affirms.] But she doesn’t need to.
trackademicks
At all.
morgan
She doesn’t need to, ‘cause we—we take her right that point. And that’s where Sweetback came in. They’re like, “Listen, this is the lane we’ve carved out for her, and we have built our sound around her voice.” Right? And I just love the lane that she's in, so I don’t think that she needs to be compared.
oliver
Sade, I think, as perhaps exemplified by this very conversation, I think she has just one of the biggest cult followings out there. [Trackademicks and Morgan both hum in agreement.] And this is for someone who, especially if we’re talking about the 2000s—she’s only put out two albums in 20 years! [Morgan laughs and affirms.] I think the last time—I was reading this up just to prep for today—I think in 2018, one of her bandmates said, “Oh yeah, we’re working on new material.” I’m like, “Well, it’s 2020. Like, where—where it’s at?” And it really strikes me, as someone who’s been spending a lot of time listening to Spotify and the so-called Spotify sound of pop and R&B. Like, wouldn’t Sade just be—I feel like, number one, she’s influenced half the people on the top of those charts on Spotify. And number two, assuming that her material is consistent with what has come before—and there’s no reason to think that they would ever change their formula that dramatically—in a lot of ways like, it really has predicted the current sound. That really laid back, a lot of like, acoustic guitar. You can trace some of that, maybe, to here. I mean, she seems really very much like, in the 2020, you know, even if we’re not actually hearing her, I feel like her presence is still here.
morgan
For sure. Because one of the things that I think about Sade’s sound all the time is, it is a vibe, but it’s not schticky. And it’s not in the way that people say a song is a vibe now. [Trackademicks affirms and laughs.] Um, and her songs are longer than two minutes. [Oliver laughs.] And you believe that there are four, five people in the studio, playing the instruments, where you don’t think that now. And her music is-it may be vibey, but it’s way more substantive than what most is on Spotify. And there's a whole generation of people making music now that were probably conceived— [Oliver laughs hysterically.] —to Diamond Life, or Promise, or um, or “Love Is Stronger Than Pride”. Um, and I do think she has influenced that sort of laid-back sound. And I do see a lot of—I do see a lot of similarity, even in some of the earlier house music. Like making music became in San Francisco. [Trackademicks affirms.] Very, very Lisa Shaw-esque, without the ooncha-ooncha, you know, of Naked Music. But that sort of really sexy you know, slow wind house music, I feel Sade is all over it with influence.
trackademicks
They’re very deep, um, yeah. I feel like the thing about Sade, ‘cause their catalogue, it actually is tangible. You can—you can touch all the music that they’ve put out. You know, some bands you’re like, “There’s these lost tapes, and then there’s all these—there’s not prints.” Where you just like, have that. There’s a finite amount of Sade music, but I think what’s telling about her music and cult fanbases is that you look at how people have interfaced with her music through like, remixes. One of the biggest things back when Lovers Rock came out that kind of pushed me and my friends like, really excited was when The Neptunes— [Morgan and Oliver respond emphatically.] —did the remix of “By Your Side.” And we were like—
morgan
We have that, too.
trackademicks
And we were like, “Yo.”
music
“By Your Side (Remix) by The Neptunes. Smooth, passionate R&B. When you're on my outside, baby, and you can't get in I will show you, you're so much better than you know When you're lost You're alone and you can't get back again I'll find you, darling... [Music fades out as dialogue resumes.]
oliver
It’s such a great pairing, because The Neptunes were so up on 80s sound anyways.
morgan
Absolutely. And I’m glad you brought that up, because “By Your Side” had three fire remixes. The Neptunes was one. There’s another one that uh, that Matthew did, that Stuart did, it’s the Cotton—
trackademicks
Cottonbelly remix? Yes.
morgan
Bought that, so if you can drop that, Christian.
trackademicks
Love that. Love that, too.
music
“By Your Side (Remix) by Cottonbelly Fola. Slow, intense vocals over a steady, multilayered beat. Oh, when you're cold I'll be there, hold you tight to me Oh, when you're low I'll be there by your side, baby [Music fades out as dialogue resumes.]
morgan
They really should’ve put this on the album, you know what I mean? [Trackademicks affirms.] Bonus tracks, because this is when bonus tracks were really like, essential to your taste.
trackademicks
Trackademicks: That was on Red Hot, right? Morgan: Red Hot, right. Trackademicks: Red Hot, yeah, yeah. Morgan: Which, that album’s just— Trackademicks: I have that. Yeah, we can get it. It’s too much D’Angelo. Morgan: I just—my god. Trackademicks: Yeah, let’s not even start. [Laughs.]
morgan
That’s so much fire on there, and then as I mentioned, Naked Music, which um, I mean I love house music. It is uh, I can go on and on— [Trackademicks agrees.] —about my deep love for it, but I really heavily into, of course we know where house music started, but when San Francisco really got into the game, and Naked Music really got in the game, they changed it into a little bit of that sophistication that you talked about. And Naked Music, to me, had the best “By Your Side” remix.
trackademicks
Yeah. There’s—I remember that one. One I also liked was by Ben Watt, Everything but the Girl. [Morgan affirms.] And that yeah, I used to—that was a little bit more turned up. It was very long form house remix. But uh, I think that—by the remixes that surfaced, it also showed me like, other people who—who I wouldn’t necessarily be—well, I wouldn’t say necessarily be listening to, but who I didn’t think like, I didn’t—back then, I was probably just learning about Everything But The Girl. And like, I’m a big fan of them too, but I didn’t know that, “Oh, they like Sade too?” And I mean, it just kind of touches everybody in a different way.
morgan
Everybody. Everybody likes Sade.
music
“By Your Side (Remix)” by Naked Music. Up-tempo, fast instrumentals under light, smooth vocals. I'll tell you you're right when you're wrong [Music fades out as dialogue resumes.]
oliver
This is giving me flashbacks to clubs in the Bay that would—I would hang out in circa 2000. I can even smell what it—it’s not necessarily a good smell. [Morgan and Trackademicks respond emphatically.] I’m having that sense memory right now.
trackademicks
I remember. I tried, yeah, I tried to intern for a label with that you know, I think it was like, Giant Step or something. And I was like, I was trying to be a college rep, and like, because I liked—I liked the house music, and I remember, yeah, going to—what was it, Mushroom Jazz? All these different parties. There were so many parties. Mark Furino—
morgan
Yeah, Sonar Collective. Uh, Naked Music. Yup.
trackademicks
Miguel Migs.
morgan
Yup, Miguel Migs. Sure, and that—when that 12 inch came out, it was just all white. The label was white, and it was just like, “Wait a minute, what is this?” And I remember you know, dropping it on the air. I was on the radio and dropped it, and you know, just phones lighting up. People were like, “Who’s remix was this?” and I was like, “Naked Music,” and that’s a testament to how everyone loved “By Your Side”. That’s not my favorite track from this album, but apparently it was a lot of people’s favorite.
oliver
And what struck me too about all these remixes is that there’s nothing on this album really that you would describe as a dance track, and in general I don’t think one associates Sade with like, dance tracks. The tempos are always way too slow to like, you’re not gonna drop this at the top of the evening. That said, and this goes back to what we were talking about a little bit earlier, is that DJs fucking love Sade. And so—and because partly I think the sparseness of the production, it lends itself to remixes, because there’s not a lot there to compete with in terms of—you don’t have to strip down a lot just to add stuff back in. And I think that that’s one of the charms about Sade is that you can give her a house remix and it sounds completely natural.
music
“By Your Side (Remix)” by Ben Watt. Fast-paced, rapid instrumentals under slower, smooth vocals I'll be there, I’ll be there When you're on my outside, baby, and you can't get in [Music fades and plays quietly behind dialogue.]
oliver
We will be back with more of our conversation with Trackademicks about Sade’s Lovers Rock after a brief word from our Max Fun sibling podcasts. Keep it locked. [Music plays for a few more seconds, then fades.]
promo
Music: Fun, upbeat music. Dave Hill: Hi! I'm Dave Hill. From before. And I'm very excited to bring Dave Hill's Podcasting Incident back to Maximum Fun, where it belongs! You can get brand new episodes every Friday on MaximumFun.org. Or, you know, wherever. And what my partner Chris Gersbeck and I might lack in specific subject matter on our podcast, we make up for in special effects! Chris, add something cool. Right here! [Gunshot or whip snap.] Also, we have explosions! [Explosion.] Animal noises. [A goat braying] And sometimes, even this! [Two comedic timpani "boings," a springier "sproing" sound, and what sounds like a human scream.] Dave Hill's Podcasting Incident! Every Friday on Maximum Fun. Chris, do another explosion right here. [Another explosion, right here.]
promo
Music: Upbeat rock plays in the background. Announcer: Dead Pilots Society brings you exclusive readings of comedy pilots that were never made, featuring actors like Patton Oswalt— Patton Oswalt: So the vampire from the future sleeps in the dude’s studio during the day, and they hunt monsters at night. It’s Blade meets The Odd Couple! [Audience laughs] Announcer: —Adam Scott and Jane Levy— Jane Levy: Come on, Cory. She’s too serious, too business-y. She doesn’t know the hokey-pokey. Adam Scott: Well, she’ll learn what it’s all about. [Audience laughs.] Announcer: —Busy Philipps and Dave Koechner. Dave Koechner: Maybe this is family. Busy Philipps: My Uncle Tal, who showed his wiener to Cinderella at Disneyland, is family. Do you want him staying with us? [Light audience laughter.] Dave: He did stay with us, for three months. Busy: And he was a delight! [Audience laughs harder.] Announcer: A new pilot every month, only on Dead Pilots Society from Maximum Fun.
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under The Stairs.
morgan
Yo, and we are back on Heat Rocks, talking Sade’s Lovers Rock with Trackademicks.
oliver
So Trackademicks, you have remixed a couple of Sade’s songs, and in fact, one of your early remixes—this is going back about 15 years—was a remix of “Give It Up”.
music
“Give It Up (Remix)” by Trackademicks. Mid-tempo, passionate R&B with multilayered vocals and complex instrumentals. I tell only the truth I give you my love I think I'd even die for you Surrender your love Surrender your love to me Surrender your love [Music fades out as Oliver speaks]
oliver
So if you remember winding your way a decade and a half ago, what was your approach? Like, how would—yeah, what is—we’ve been talking so much about remixing Sade, and we are sitting here with a Sade remixer.
trackademicks
[Laughs] Yeah, you know, it’s funny. Back then, when that tape dropped, that was during the hyphy movement, and a lot of people know me for my Bay Area rap that I do, like my E-40 remix, and working with folks out there. But I also had a very like, um, you know, like future, I guess—so back then, like, future soul. And uh, I was—I was really flexing that as well, and I feel like I was alw—I was looking for stuff to remix. My homie, Tap, would give me stuff. Uh, my homie, Wiz. And like, I think that—that one—I literally scoured. I was like, “Which Sade song can I do?” I was actually like, “What can I do?” But when I heard—when I heard “Give It Up”, I was like, “This is perfect, because it’s not one of the ones that everybody knows.” There’s no drums. Like, there’s just percussion in the background. It’s very v—like, you can um, what’s it, you can zone out to it. It’s pretty simple, and so, even when I made that—it’s funny, as you just played the clip, I listened to it and I was like, “Oh yeah, I actually played along with this whole song.” Instead of like, sequencing beats, like I make a loop here, I literally played the kick the whole time and then the snares the whole time. Because the music wasn’t played to a click track, like how it is now. And so yeah, that trips me out, and I wanted to—I wanted to like, bring kind of like, those Naked Music vibes, where it’s like—and like, I guess I always say, when it comes to organic music, you like, plug it in the socket, give it a little electric. That’s why, you know, all the synth lines and stuff like that.
music
“Give It Up (Remix)” plays again. Surrender your love Surrender your love to me [Music fades out as dialogue resumes.]
oliver
Well, bringing this back to Lovers Rock, Morgan, you’ve been saying that “By Your Side”, not your favorite.
morgan
Not my favorite.
oliver
So, what, to you, what’s the fire track off of here?
morgan
I have to say that I go back and forth, and I just have to thank you again for bringing this up, because it forced me to come back to it. Like I said, I was a little bit nervous about saying this might be my favorite album, because I didn’t say this when it came out. But you know, you have the benefit of hindsight, okay? So, I think my favorite would be a tie between the title track and “Slave Song”. I like “Slave Song”, and on its face, you don’t want to like anything that has slave in the name. [Trackademicks and Oliver respond affirmatively.] But I like it. Um, I like “Lovers Rock” because it is straight up, it is like, this is not only the title track, this is the vibe we were going for. It’s romantic to me, it’s sexy. Those are my two favorite tracks. I love everything about this album, but if I only had two of their—like, listen, we’re only releasing— [Oliver and Trackademicks laugh.] —two songs off this album for the rest of your life. I’m taking “Lovers Rock” and “Slave Song”.
music
“Lovers Rock” off the album Lovers Rock by Sade. Mid-tempo lovers rock with gently passionate vocals. When I need to be rescued And I need a place to swim I have a rock to cling to in the storm When no one can hear me calling [Music fades out as dialogue resumes.]
morgan
Oof. [Trackademicks chuckles.] Oof.
oliver
And “Slave Song”, please.
music
“Slave Song” off the album Lovers Rock by Sade Had I not had the strength and wisdom of a warrior I would have to give up But I´m thankful that I´m Strong as I am and I´ll Try to do the best I can [Music fades out as dialogue resumes.]
oliver
What strikes me, especially hearing these two songs back to back, is that there’s so much space in this album, and that works really well with Sade’s voice, because there’s so much space in her voice, too.
morgan
Yup, and patience. I feel like the musicians are patient.
trackademicks
That’s it. I think that is the thing that sets them apart, you know? They’re not—they’ll wait for it, you know. I actually watched Lovers Live, and um, just in preparation for this, and watching that, I’m like, even the live performance is so simple. It had to do with a lot of lights and warm tones and colors. And I was actually—I had gone to that tour twice. So they had two shows in the Bay. They had one in Shoreline Amphitheatre, in which I was in fifth row. [Oliver and Morgan laugh.] And—but the—
oliver
Flexing.
trackademicks
The row actually curved around to the stage, so I was at the end of the fifth row, which is in effect like, the first row. Watching that, you could see there was like, warm light and um, yeah, it was crazy. It was just simplicity, and watching it again, you could see just everything. They gave time. They didn’t feel like they had to fill every moment with a crazy, like her, you know?
morgan
We have—we bought a, um—adding to what we’re talking about, about the specificity of her production, I found a little clip from the Lovers Rock EP where she’s talking about production, more or less.
trackademicks
Oh, wow.
clip
[Soft, jazzy music plays in the background.] Sade: We call the album Lovers Rock. Traditionally me and Stuart have often started songs on just guitar and vocal, and when I was younger, I would listen to lovers rock music, which is a soft, sweet kind of reggae. Oftentimes he’ll put a little reggae beat in, just the guitar and uh, I’ll sing along in a lovers rock style. When I hear a beat like that, I feel lifted up and inspired. And also um, because I’m not a lovers rock singer, I can sort of go somewhere else. I can go and become someone for a few minutes that I’m not, and sing in a way that I wouldn’t necessarily actually sing.
oliver
I just like listening to her talk.
morgan
I was just about to say, like— [Oliver laughs.] —if she didn’t sing another note, I’d be like, “Just call me.”
oliver
I’m pretty sure Sade lives in LA, so Sade, if you hear this, like, come through. [Morgan responds emphatically.] We want—want to sit down with you in here.
morgan
Indeed. Indeed, and I think one of the points that should be made is, when you have time as a band to spend that much time with an artist, with a singer, you know them. And I think they just got her to an extent that, no matter what type of style, this album could have been anything, but everything and every decision, they knew how to wrap that production around her voice, and make the most out of a voice that I think is so beautiful and didn’t really need gymnastics to be perfection.
trackademicks
I mean, I feel she’s very—I’m a Capricorn, but I feel like she’s very, very Capricorn when you hear it. Like, it’s very solid, foundational, like serious, but um—
morgan
What’s your rising sign?
trackademicks
I am a Libra rising.
morgan
Alright. Okay. I’m into that stuff, so I had to ask.
trackademicks
No, it’s good. Yeah, I’m a Libra rising, but Capricorn, and it’s funny, just listening to Sade’s music, I really feel like I can relate on like, a core level. Like, of her—the way her music is deeply emotional but she always looks unphased. Even the video, like, if you look on this album, “King of Sorrow”, you’re like the king of sorrow, but I can see that you’re having a very hard time, but she’s still—if—you can’t tell. [Laughs.]
morgan
And she is a Capricorn.
trackademicks
Oh, there we go! Called it!
morgan
January 16th.
oliver
What’s your fire track off this album?
trackademicks
My fire track? Man, I—I’d have to say “Slave Song”, but re-listening to it, “Every Word”— [Morgan responds emphatically.] —is—it’s like a deep—I feel like it’s a deeper cut. No one ever brings it up. But I remember—I remember my relationship with the album when it came out. And um, so while “Slave Song” is like, the one that—it knocks the hardest, it’s like, “Okay, I like the production of this and the message and everything.” It’s actually, you know—it—actually listening to that, I thought of the 1619 project New York Times did, and it was very timely to like, this—20 years around to listen to this—this album, and it’s still relevant today. But um, yeah, I have to say, “Every Word” is like a slow burn. It came back and I was like, “Ooh, I feel this song. I really feel it to the core.” Like I feel the—kind of like the sorrow in it, but it’s like, it is what it is, like...
morgan
And that echo. That echo that goes through the song is just like, ooh.
trackademicks
Yeah. Love is what the world wants.
music
“Every Word” off the album Lovers Rock by Sade. Slow, passionate R&B with multilayered vocals. In there every word, oh, oh, oh, oh How could you have done that to us? [Music fades out as dialogue resumes.]
trackademicks
Yeah, there’s a resolution there. That’s what I hear.
morgan
You?
oliver
For me, it hasn’t changed in those 20 years. It’s still “All About Our Love”, and I think partly—I’m really into just, what do I hear, how am I hit by a song in just its first opening bars, and this song just has aged so well, because I’m still, still affected by it the same way.
music
“All About Our Love” off the album Lovers Rock by Sade. A relaxed yet complex instrumental opening, accompanied after several moments It’s all about our love [Music fades out as dialogue resumes.]
oliver
And I think back, you know, this was—we’re talking 2000, I would have been sort of at the tail end of one relationship, still kind of a year and change away from going out with the person who’s now my wife. And I think the kind of romanticism of Sade, especially as someone who then was still not even in my 30s yet, like in my late 20s, it was—maybe this is just a very kind of hassled way of talking about Sade—but her music is so romantic.
morgan
It is.
oliver
I think it really appealed to that sense. And of course, an album called Lovers Rock, you just expect that kind of balladry and those themes to it. Uh, and yeah, that song is still just utterly sublime to me. [Trackademicks and Morgan both affirm multiple times.] I was also thinking back, because oftentimes, we ask people about their favorite moment on the album. And this, the way the song opens is very close, but when I really went back and listened to the album again, I think my favorite moment actually comes on “King of Sorrow”. And it’s really when you hear her deliver that opening line.
music
“King of Sorrow” off the album Lovers Rock by Sade. Slow, impassioned vocals over guitar and drums. I'm crying everyone's tears And there inside our private war I died the night before [Music fades out as dialogue resumes.]
oliver
And you were saying earlier about her pen game, and just a line like that, “I’m crying everyone’s tears,” like...
morgan
Her pen game is sick. I mean, it is sick, and there’s so many just like, heaters on here, from all kinds of songs. But one of—one of my favorites is “Every Word”, where she's like, “You treated me like a stranger, and all the time I was loving you. All the slick words, all your slick moves.” I was like, “Get out of my mind, get out of my texts.” [Oliver laughs.] “Stop reading my Tumblr.” Um, but—but yeah, her pen game is fire, and it has been fire. I think one of my favorite moments is the last song, because I was surprised at the organ. I wasn’t expecting that, and it sounds very worship-y to me.
music
“It’s Only Love That Gets You Through” off the album Lovers Rock by Sade. Slow, ardent, keyed-down gospel. And you know tenderness comes from pain It's amazing how you love [Music fades out as dialogue resumes.]
morgan
Soundtrack ready, that’s end credits ready, all day. [Trackademicks and Oliver affirm.] All day long.
oliver
Do you have a favorite moment?
trackademicks
You know, it’s funny. Yours is what I was thinking of, because the line is so poignant.
oliver
Yeah, and just a way to open a song. That’s just, boom.
trackademicks
Yeah. There’s like, other musical moments, but that—that is like—that’s actually like the peak stance in the album. Like, “Oh snap.” Like, that’s what kind of this whole vibe is. But I also like “Somebody Already Broke My Heart”, but there was—there’s an actual hit in there, right after she says it. “Somebody already broke my heart”, bap.
music
“Somebody Already Broke My Heart” off the album Lovers Rock by Sade. Mid-tempo, grooving R&B. Somebody already broke my heart [Music fades out as dialogue resumes.]
trackademicks
There’s a hit in like, that happens that they play it out on stage with the lights. [Oliver and Morgan respond emphatically.] And I remember that because it sounds like—like if a synth could like, drop water or p—I think they dropped water. That’s actually what they did when that happened, and I remember it just having an effect on me when—being at the show, I’m like, “Oh, snap!” I remember hearing this in the record, but also seeing like, that they took—they took care to put that in the show, I was—yeah, I like that part.
oliver
See, they knew. They knew that was a moment. [Trackademicks affirms and Morgan laughs.] We were talking a little bit about sleeper jams, right, ‘cause you were saying, Trackademicks, about how “Every Word” would be that for you. And listening to this again, I realized a song that I think I kind of sped through 20 years back, mostly because it gave me too much g-funk vibes, was “Somebody Already Broke My Heart”, actually. Just because of the production style, but like, that song’s incredible!
music
“Somebody Already Broke My Heart” plays again. I can’t go there again [Music fades out as dialogue resumes.]
oliver
Yeah, that sneaky synthesizer, which back in 2000, like, eh, I’m good with this. [Trackademicks and Morgan laugh.] But no, this song is—this song is the jam.
trackademicks
I don’t think I even heard it, because I use it all the time still. [Oliver and Morgan laugh.] I’m still making every beat with that lead in there. That’s crazy.
morgan
I feel the same about “Flow”. I think “Flow” was a bit of a sleeper jam. [Oliver responds delightedly.] And I love the beat off “Flow”.
music
“Flow” off the album Lovers Rock by Sade. Mid-tempo lovers rock. You come down (I'm in the light) You cover (pull me to you) And the waves rush over me I feel a love light rush over me I feel the love turn to me [Music fades out as dialogue resumes.]
morgan
Lauryn Hill-ish.
trackademicks
That—I was listening to that and it reminded me of this Black Star song, and I could not—it doesn't really sound like, but it’s—with the drum, it’s definitely a hip hop song. Like, “Flow” has a hip hop beat, with like, an acoustic over it. But it reminded me of one of the songs on Black Star’s album. Um, I can’t quite remember which one it was, but yeah.
morgan
Was it just a little pinch of Wyclef?
trackademicks
Yeah.
morgan
Pinch of Wyclef.
oliver
We oftentimes ask if there’s a song off of here that you would like to hear covered or remixed, but given that we are in the studio with someone who has remixed Sade, albeit I don’t think you’ve remixed anything off of this album. So, if you had to choose a track to remix, which one and why?
trackademicks
Oh, that—that’s a very good question. Um, I—and you know what, I don’t think I’ve thought about it. If I remix or cover, ‘cause those are two different things.
oliver
Good point. Which would you rather hear?
trackademicks
If I was working—I would probably want to do a cover so just, from the ground up. Because there’s so much—there’s a lot here, but it’s very sparse. You can interpret it—I think, the way I like to cover things is by still kinda keeping true to the original, but like really, really turning a corner with how the production is. You know, I’m just trying to figure out a way to, like, bring in a whole new vibe. Because uh, you don’t wanna, uh, like I said, it’s sacrilegious, it feels like. But, on this album, if I was to cover something, probably “Lovers Rock”. Just because it’s so—it’s one of those songs that’s very much in the style. It’s actually the album track, you know, title track. It sounds like what they were going for, right? [Morgan affirms.] But, to bring that—but to kind of like switch that, and bring it into a different context, you know? That would be interesting to me. Because it’s a fully written song. It’s not—there’s a lot of words there to play with, there’s a lot of things to do with that song.
music
“Lovers Rock” off the album Lovers Rock by Sade. You are the lovers rock The rock that I cling to You're the one [Music fades out as dialogue resumes.]
morgan
So we ask our guests if they can describe the album in three words, what would they be?
trackademicks
Oh. It’s… hmm. I would have to say… sweet, simple, but substantial. [Morgan and Oliver hum appreciatively.] Yeah. Like alliteration.
morgan
Alliteration, yeah.
trackademicks
Yeah. Like alliteration. Yeah, I love alliteration. It’s one of my favorite things.
oliver
If listeners really enjoyed listening to Lovers Rock, what should be next in their rotation? And, Morgan, you wanna start us off?
morgan
You know what, I mentioned Massive Attack, so I’d have to go back to Massive Attack, and I’d say they’ve got a lot of albums, but you need to go to Protection. Um, jams like “Spying Glass”, the title track, “Better Things” will keep you right in the pocket.
music
“Better Things” off the album Protection by Massive Attack. Slow, quietly intense vocals over bare instrumentals. Don't drag me down just because you're down And just 'cause you're blue, don't make me too And though you've found... [Music fades out as dialogue resumes.]
morgan
And then also, if you’re really feeling the Lovers Rock thing, you need to go right to Horace. Horace Andy and In the Light. And also explore his song “Five Man Army”, Which is also with Massive Attack. If you put these two things together, then you’re in the pocket vibe-wise, and sonically.
music
“Five Man Army” off the album Blue Lines by Massive Attack. Mid-tempo hip hop with a deep, gruff voice. A turbo turbo and charge with a charge I be daddy g wild bunch crew at large Don't call a officer just call me a sarge Mashing up the country and also abroad Plan to go to America when I get a Visa card (But getting' a Visa card nowadays isn't hard) [Music fades out as dialogue resumes.]
oliver
I was thinking about Sade’s vocal affect. And, while I think Sade is incomparable in many, many ways, she certainly has, I think, predecessors in terms of signature voices that communicate that same kind of effortlessly cool, smoothness. And, who came to mind was the Brazilian bossanova singer Astrud Gilberto. I think for entire generations of Brazilian music fans, she was the sound of bossanova, thanks to that very light, lilting voice that always sounded—in the same way that Sade—you just never hear her sweat! I feel like Astrud was very similar to that. And you can do worse than, I think, starting with her self-titled debut from all the way back in 1965, which includes one of her greatest hits, “Agua de Beber”.
music
“Beber de Agua” off the album The Astrud Gilberto Album by Astrud Gilberto. Upbeat, quick-paced vocalizations over light instrumentals. [Music fades out as dialogue resumes.]
oliver
Trackademicks, what about you, what do you think people should listen to after Lovers Rock?
trackademicks
There’s so much in the universe that is kinda adjacent. Uh, I feel like, I mean, definitely Esthero. Like, the first and second album. It’s funny, I feel like their trajectory was kind of was similar.
morgan
You talking about Breath From Another, yeah.
trackademicks
Mm-hm. Breath From Another, but then how she went more acoustic and more—so, definitely that.
music
“Breath From Another” off the album Breath From Another by Esthero. Slow, intense vocals over a steady, heavy beat. Inside your daughter is not warm enough, and you're not woman enough, no [Music fades out as dialogue resumes.]
trackademicks
Just on a vibe level, modern day, definitely Alex Isley for sure.
music
“Into Orbit” off the album Love / Art Memoirs by Alex Isley. Slow, tender, ardent vocals over bare instrumentals. I wanna be with the stars Send me, send me Into orbit Ohh, send me, send me, into orbit [Music fades out as dialogue resumes.]
morgan
And while you mention that, um, if you’re new to Trackademicks and his discography, you really need to get into his remixes, especially one that he just did for Alex Isley that, you know, changed my whole life. One day on Bandcamp, I was like, “Oh my god. What is this?” And I was like, “Of course, it’s Trackademicks.”
trackademicks
That’s what’s up.
music
“Road To You (Trackademicks Remix)” by Alex Isley. Quick vocals with a somewhat electronic backing. None of them feel the same as home Take me back to the surroundings that I know It gets so lonely on the road I'll take the one that leads to you [Music fades out as dialogue resumes.]
oliver
Well, that will do it for this episode of Heat Rocks with our special guest, Trackademicks.
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under The Stairs
oliver
You have your own solo EP that just came out, Sunset Saturdays. You have your duo New Game with 1-O.A.K. What else you working on right now?
trackademicks
Um, so I’m slowly, steadily working on an album. Also, I have another EP dropping called Jacuzzi Dreams. [Oliver laughs.] Yes.
oliver
You’ve definitely been in LA now for a minute. [Oliver and Morgan laugh.]
trackademicks
Yes. Always. You know.
oliver
Where can people find you online?
trackademicks
Um, @Trackademicks everything. T-R-A-C-K-A-D-E-M-I-C-K-S, at all the socials.
oliver
Thank you for coming through.
morgan
Hey!
oliver
You’ve been listening to Heat Rocks with me, Oliver Wang, and Morgan Rhodes.
morgan
Our theme music is “Crown Ones” by Thes One of People Under The Stairs. Shoutout to Thes for the hookup.
oliver
Heat Rocks is produced by myself and Morgan, alongside Christian Dueñas, who also edits, engineers, and does the booking for our shows.
morgan
Our senior producer is Laura Swisher, and our executive producer is Jesse Thorn.
oliver
We are part of the Maximum Fun family, taping every week live in their studios in the West Lake neighborhood of Los Angeles.
speaker 2
Comedy and culture.
speaker 3
Artist owned—
speaker 4
—Audience supported.
About the show
Hosted by Oliver Wang and Morgan Rhodes, every episode of Heat Rocks invites a special guest to talk about a heat rock – a hot album, a scorching record. These are in-depth conversations about the albums that shape our lives.
Our guests include musicians, writers, and scholars and though we don’t exclusively focus on any one genre, expect to hear about albums from the worlds of soul, hip-hop, funk, jazz, Latin, and more.
New episodes every Thursday on Apple Podcasts or whatever you get your podcasts.
Subscribe to our website updates for exclusive bonus content (including extra interview segments, mini-episodes, etc.)
Meanwhile, you can email us at heatrockspod@gmail.com or follow us on social media:
People
How to listen
Stream or download episodes directly from our website, or listen via your favorite podcatcher!
