Transcript
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under The Stairs.
oliver wang
Hello, I’m Oliver Wang.
morgan rhodes
And I’m Morgan Rhodes. You’re listening to Heat Rocks.
oliver
Every episode we invite a guest to join us to talk about a heat rock, hot lava. And today we are going to be joining hands to take it back to 1994 and Two—or maybe it’s just II, I don’t know—the second album by the R&B mega smash group, Boyz II Men.
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“Thank You” off the album II by Boyz II Men. Smooth, funky R&B. (I like this, I like this, I like...) I was young And didn't have nowhere to run I needed to wake up and see (and see) What's in front of me (na-na-na) There has to be a better way Sing it again a better way To show...
morgan
Boyz II Men going off, not too hard, not too soft— [Oliver says “ooo” appreciatively.] —could easily be considered a bit of a mantra for Shawn, Wanya, Nathan, and Michael, two tenors, a baritone, and a bass singer from Philly, after their debut album. The one that introduced us to their steez, and their melodies. This one went hella platinum. The follow-up, II. This album had hits that can be divided into three sections. Section one, couple’s therapy. [Oliver laughs.] Section two, “I’ve got vocal summer camp”. And three, “can we go a little faster?” Four-part harmony and earnestness made this, without question, a 90’s album. A double Grammy winning album. Somehow, we’ve gone from this—
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“I’ll Make Love To You” off the Album II by Boyz II Men. Slow, tender, impassioned R&B. I'll make love to you Like you want me to And I'll hold you tight Baby, all through the night I'll make… [Music fades out]
morgan
—to this.
music
“No Protection” off the album Unfaithful by Damar Jackson. Slow R&B with a heavy drums. I'm talking no protection with you, no protection with you A connection with you when I'm sexing you Won't regret this with you 'Cause damn, you the truth, baby [Music fades out as Morgan speaks]
morgan
Because Boyz II Men came to prominence when men could be boyish. They could have crushes, be awkward, write poetry, serenade, and cry. Because in the summer of 1994, we preferred ballads to beef— [Oliver hums in agreement.] —and four dudes from Philly who didn’t mind letting their sensitivity get in the way. Shout-out to Luther Vandross. This album was a heat rock.
music
“Thank You” off the album II by Boyz II Men. 'Cause even though when times got rough You never turned away You were right there And I thank you (And I thank you) When I felt I had enough You never turned away You were right there And I thank you (And I thank you) [Music fades out as Oliver speaks]
oliver
To talk about Boyz II Men, we’ve invited Phil Yu. You may know him better as Angry Asian Man, the titular website that he created back in 2001 to report on Asian-American culture, politics, and related issues. I started reading Angry Asian Man back in those early days, and it’s crazy to realize that there is now an entire generation of Asian-American youth about to start college who may have grown up with Angry Asian Man as their definitive, formative source for news related to our merry little community. Phil is also one half of the podcast They Call Us Bruce, where he and co-host Jeff Yang have a, quote “unfiltered conversation about what’s happening in Asian America,” unquote. Phil, welcome to Heat Rocks.
phil yu
Thank you for having me. Uh, I’m a fan of the show, um. I’m just, like, I’m here! I’m here. [Morgan and Oliver laugh.]
morgan
Mama, we made it!
oliver
So, Phil, I had no idea what you would choose. I did joke with you offline that I figured maybe you’d pick New Order, just because we’re both Asian Americans of a certain generation. But you decided you wanna go with the second, the sophomore Boyz II Men album. Why was this one a heat rock for you?
phil
I think Boyz II Men is definitely the first group I ever sort of proclaimed, “This is my favorite group,” at the time, you know? I was in my teens. It was super formative of my ideas of like, romance, uh, wooing girls, and liking a girl, pining after, you know, girls, and Boyz II Men provided the soundtrack for that. In addition to just, you know, forming my musical tastes, and listening to—just kind of digesting everything that was coming out at me on the radio. I kind of settled on, like, “I like these guys, and their aesthetic, and their sound. This is what, like, I think I’m about this.” And so, when this album came out, it was coming off of Cooleyhigh, which was like, you know—
oliver
Huge! It was huge! Massive! [Morgan says “yeah” a few times in agreement.]
phil
[Morgan responds affirmatively as Phil speaks.] —massive, you know. Between albums they came out with the uh, monster single “End of the Road”, right, off the Boomerang soundtrack. That was like, hot summer jam.
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“End of the Road” off the album Cooleyhighharmony by Boyz II Men. Slow, yearning R&B. Although we've come to the end of the road Still I can't let go It's unnatural, you belong to me… [Music fades out as Phil speaks]
phil
And then when this album finally dropped, I was hyped. I was so hyped. And I remember it was one of the first albums I ever was like, anticipating the release date for. And, like, we were taking the bus after school to go to the mall to pick up this album.
morgan
Where’d you pick it up from? If you remember.
phil
I think I got it at Musicland? Which is a Sam Goodie—
oliver
I think so, yeah.
phil
Yeah, part of the Sam Goodie chain.
oliver
This was up in the Bay Area.
phil
Up in the Bay Area. Cupertino, California. I went to—I took the bus after school to what was then called “Vallco Fashion Park”— [Morgan and Oliver laugh.] —and I uh, picked up II.
oliver
What format?
phil
It was—and it was one of the first CD’s I ever got. [Oliver hums affirmatively.] Yeah, I remember getting my first CD player the year previous, and so, yeah, one of the first CD’s.
oliver
You did say a moment ago that this was an album that you were—and along with millions of others, I’m sure—heavily anticipating. How were you first introduced to Boyz II Men? How did you first start listening to them?
phil
It was definitely first, uh, the first single off CooleyHigh, “Motownphilly”. You know, when that song dropped, it was like, “I’ve never heard anything like this before,” you know.
oliver
Was this on the radio, was this in your house?
phil
Oh yeah, radio, um. I didn’t have MTV back in the day, and so it was all radio. All radio. Shout-out to KMEL and The Bear
oliver
Yes! 90s classic. One of the—just the best era for radio, period, not just in the bay. But KMEL in the 90s was game changing.
phil
Yeah, I mean, it was very formative for me. And, so when “Motownphilly” dropped, that video, I did catch glimpses of that video, you know, despite not having MTV. And I remember being so, like, being impressed with their style, because they had a different kind of style.
morgan
They did. They did.
phil
And then, as somebody who didn’t have a lot of style I think back then—but I was like—they were so like—they were really preppy, all “gapped” out, you know, and I was like, “That is my natural state!” [Oliver laughs.] I was like, “They are making this cool!” You know, and so that to me was like, I could get with this, you know. And so visually they made an impression on me, you know, in addition to being just like, a really hot single.
morgan
[Phil responds affirmatively several times while Morgan speaks.] They were preppy. They had the glasses. They had the varsity jackets that had the little letters on them. They had the bowties. At least one of the brothers had a cane. And uh. It was just a cool look. You know, it was a cool look. And then they had the harmonies. And they had the acapellas. And at the time, the only other acapella group that I knew that had gone to prominence was Take Six. [Oliver says “Take Six” in unison.] And they weren’t, like, cool.
oliver
Right. They were not running the MTV charts.
morgan
They really, really weren’t. So this was fresh.
oliver
So Morgan, I need to know from you, how was your introduction—what was your introduction to Boyz II Men? [Oliver agrees, saying “mm-hm” and “yeah” while Morgan speaks.]
morgan
“Motownphilly.” And I heard it, um. I dunno where I was going. I had a car then, and I was rolling. I think I heard it on the radio, and I was like, “This is sorta dope,” you know? Um, the way the song starts. 1994, I had choices. I mean, I was also into dance music then, so that was a thing. But I was into—I mean I can’t take anything away from 90s R&B. I was into all of it. I was into High Five, I was into Portrait, I was into Shai. Um, I didn’t want people to know, but I was into Jodeci. [Oliver laughs] But I just didn’t wanna claim that. You know what I’m saying?
oliver
Wait, hold up, hold up, why? Because Jodeci was…
morgan
You know...
oliver
A little too… A little too extra?
morgan
[Stammering.] It might have been.
oliver
Okay.
morgan
Might have been, might have been. But uh, you know, like I always say on the show, confession is good for the soul. It’s just, someone’s going to hear this and be like, “Poser”. [Oliver laughs.] But yeah, I was into—I was into that style. I liked Boyz II Men because I thought their sound was just like, a real talent flex. Like, these dudes could sing. I mean, you know what I’m saying? These are four dudes that could really sing, and could really harmonize. And as I was sort of saying in the intro, it was just a time where their sound and their style wasn’t considered corny yet, right? [Oliver and Phil both respond affirmatively.] And so, um, it was cool to serenade girls! And I thought that was all cool, and then the Cooley High association was just cool. That’s just iconic to Black culture, so they won for me from the very beginning.
oliver
Yeah. Phil, how much R&B were you listening to in general? I mean, was that like your main genre? Like, what else was a 15 year old Phil Yu getting into back then?
phil
You know, it was pretty much top 40. Anything that was kind of playing on the radio that was popular then. So I switched dials between the rock stations, and then KMEL. Kinda like everything, anything that was just playing on heavy rotation on the radio back then, I was kinda consuming it all. So, you know, it was everything from Boyz II Men, and definitely, like, High Five, all those, like Shai, um. But also, I had a big REM phase, uh. Toad the Wet Sprocket, I had multiple albums from Toad the Wet Sprocket.
morgan
Sure. These were the Cranberry years...
phi
Yeah, the Cranberry years. I mean, I kinda listened to all that. So basically anything that was on the radio, you know, I kind of just digested all of it.
oliver
Phil, you brought up just the look of Boyz II Men, and how it synced well with how you already dressed. I’m wondering, were you—whether in explicit, or maybe more subtle ways—did you begin changing your look in terms of how you dressed for school, to make it a little bit more… Boyz II Men-y?
phil
I’m not gonna lie. I mean, I didn’t have— [Morgan laughs.] I didn’t have like, three other guys to rock it with, but like, I definitely, like. When you saw—because I saw that other people were also adapting to that style, right, and it’s like, also like making the GAP cool, and like, you know. So, yeah, I mean, I think I started to sort of, uh—
oliver
Weld it in. Suspenders, maybe.
phil
I was proud of being able to be like, “Yo, I’m kind of a square. These guys feel like they’re kind of cool squares,” you know? And like, I’m a square, too. So, I’m okay with that. People were sagging, people were wearing baggy—and I was like, “I’m not, I don’t feel like I have the guts to do that.” But, Boyz II Men is making it cool to be like— [Phil and Oliver break off into laughter.]
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“I Sit Away” off the album II by Boyz II Men. Sad, plaintive R&B/pop. If you could feel the pain that I'm feeling Then you would know why So I sit away lonely (Sit away lonely) And I get away only in my mind [Music fades out as Phil speaks]
phil
I think that what became really apparent in the relisten of this album, was to me, that, like, I really love this group, and I realize, I had kind of been duped into being a huge fan of, essentially, a boy band. You know? [Morgan says “yeah” and chuckles.]
oliver
Wait, why do you say that like it’s a bad thing?
phil
You know, because I would recoil at someone suggesting—what would be—are prototypical examples of a boy band.
oliver
Your NSYNCs or your Backstreet Boys.
phil
Right, right. I would have recoiled, and said, “Hell no.” But, looking back, I’m like, “Oh. These guys were a boy band.” You know? They had their distinct, you know, each member had their personality, carefully crafted image. The group had an image, and a certain level of squeaky-cleanness to them. [Morgan responds affirmatively.] It was top 40 radio friendly that you could play on adult contemporary, you know? And then, they just had this sincerity to them that was like—that played to, like we’ve been saying, to girls. To girls, you know. Uh, definitely, I look back and like, “Oh, yeah, Boyz II Men. It’s in the name. They were a boy band.”
morgan
That’s it. And I just didn’t—I believed them. I struggled with Color Me Badd, and it’s not just because one of those dudes looked like George Michael— [Oliver and Phil laugh.] —and that freaked me out. That was part of it, but I just thought they threw a bunch of dudes together. It was sort of a Benetton ad on music. [Oliver responds affirmatively.] And it just didn’t gel for me.
oliver
It didn’t feel authentic.
morgan
They didn’t! You know what I’m talking about? [Oliver affirms emphatically.] There was just something weird about them. This, to your point, everybody had their distinct—I mean, I think everyone loved Wanya, but I think people slept on Shawn. Shawn had vocals.
phil
Oh, he was the slickest. I mean, that falsetto?
morgan
For sure! Come on, now. He didn’t really come to prominence until they got to “Hey Lover”. When they did that song with LL Cool J, “Hey Lover”, Shawn stepped out of the shadows.
music
“Hey Lover” by LL Cool J feat. Boyz II Men. Smooth R&B with several voices harmonizing together. Hey lover, hey lover, this is more than a crush Hey lover, hey lover, this is more than a crush Lover, hey lover, this is more than a crush Hey lover, hey lover, this is... [Music fades out as Morgan speaks]
morgan
You know, I wanted to get into the specific tracks, and so I wanted to sort of circle back on some of the stuff that I said in the intro. So when I talked about couple’s therapy, that being one section of the album, I’m talking about songs like “Trying Times”, “I’ll Make Love to You”, “On Bended Knee”, and “Water Runs Dry”. Those are relationship songs. And Boyz II Men was not too proud to beg. A lot of those songs, Wanya is singing hard. [Phil responds affirmatively while Oliver laughs in the background.] In the church, we call that flat-footed singing. He is singing hard, like it is, for that brother, it is important to be earnest, right? He is really singing from his soul. Those are directed specifically at women, and very sensitive and vulnerable. Which I think was—early 90s R&B is about that, but the whole album doesn’t really sound like that. I think on other songs, they show off a little bit some of their vocals. “Khalil” is one of them.
music
“Khalil (Interlude)” off the album II by Boyz II Men. Slow, aching vocals over a piano track. I need shelter from the rain, to ease the pain Of changing from Boys II Men [Music fades out as Morgan speaks]
morgan
“Yesterday” is another one.
music
“Yesterday” off the album II by Boyz II Men. Slow acapella vocals. Suddenly I'm not half the man I used to be There's a shadow hanging over me Oh, yesterday came suddenly… [Music fades out as Morgan speaks]
morgan
“Yesterday”, that’s ambitious, like—
oliver
Taking on The Beatles.
morgan
How did you feel about that? Were you there for it?
oliver
That is one of those songs that I did remember from then, and I think they do a really good job with it. And it’s ballsy not simply just to cover The Beatles, but to make it the last track in your album, which is just giving it that, you know, that key position and that weight in the sequence. And this comes back to the point both of you have made here, is that one of the things this group could do is that they pull off really good vocals. They didn’t need to cover it up with the production. They could just let their harmonies roll, and I think that’s what makes their cover here work. Also, I’m not really wed to some idea that The Beatles are untouchable. I mean, there are some artists that I think are really hard to cover, and we’ve talked about this in the past. Covering Prince, you’re asking for some challenges. But I think The Beatles, what made them great was a lot of their songwriting, but it’s not because necessarily that John and Paul and George and Ringo had these world-beater voices that could never be duplicated. That wasn’t what they were about. I think Beatles’ stuff lends itself to be covered.
morgan
Sure. It’s just how people consider them, and that they put them in a category where it’s almost like, “Is it sacrilegious to cover them?” And I think if you’re gonna cover them, you gotta do it differently like Boyz II Men did it, which was rife with harmonies. And so it took it from something is a classic, or would be considered so classic that you can’t touch it, into something that they made their own. I don’t know how everybody felt about that, but I just like the arrangement of it.
phil
I think, if you looked at it, you know, cynically, it appears to have some calculation. I mean, one of the big hits off of Cooleyhighharmony was “It's So Hard to Say Goodbye to Yesterday”. Also an acapella song, also a cover, and, you know. And then so, you know, someone in the studio might have been like, “You know, we should do another acapella joint.”
oliver
With the name “Yesterday”.
phil
[Oliver and Morgan laugh.] Yesterday! I mean, the most famous song with yesterday in it, right? And then close out the album. But it, you know, the arrangement is gorgeous. And it really is the most show-offy song that they have on the album, where like, “This is what we do!” You know? So, it really does just show off all their colors, you know.
oliver
They should have done some kind of maxi-EP that was just songs of Boyz II Men doing songs called “Yesterday”— [Everyone laughs.] —with six variations on that. That would have been, just, multi-platinum, out the box.
music
[“Yesterday” fades back in] ... so far away Oh, yesterday was far away And I know I can't turn back 'Cause yesterday is gone [Music comes to an end as Morgan speaks]
morgan
Of the songs that I mentioned that are very relationship and sort of, you know, love-focused on this album, what’s your favorite? Out of like, “On Bended Knee”, “Water Runs Dry”, “I’ll Make Love to You”, which one is your jam on here?
phil
This is—okay, this is hard. Of the three, I think the one that I really love the most, and I think is somewhat timeless is “Water Runs Dry”. I think it’s a gorgeous song. It’s not—it doesn’t so much have the production of the era, so that it feels a little more timeless, right? And it’s Babyface all over that. [Morgan and Oliver respond emphatically.] All over that. But with the strings and the guitar, it’s like, I don’t know. There’s something really, really gorgeous about, and poetic about that song.
music
“Water Runs Dry” off the album II by Boyz II Men. Soulful, poppy R&B with yearning vocals. But we deny the pain that lies deep in our hearts Well, maybe that's a pain we can't hide Cause everybody knows that we're both torn apart Why do we hurt each other? [Music fades out as Phil speaks]
phil
But I do have a special—a soft spot for “On Bended Knee”. I think that it—of all the songs that Boyz II Men has ever done, it is the peak Boyz II Men song, right? Not just because there’s this, you know, it has this feeling of supplication and actually invokes God, but it does feel like a church worship song in a lot of ways. The way it builds and the way it really, you know—and then at the end they’re just kind of like—what you said was, I had never heard of that term, what? The flat-footed—
morgan
Flat-footed singing!
phil
But it is perfect, right, and then there’s always this moment in every Boyz II Men song where they just give Wanya the green light, right? [Morgan responds affirmatively. Oliver laughs.] It’s like, “Go! Go!” and his voice has this physicality to it that is just, you know, it is using his whole body, you know? And so that song, I think, when he goes off, it’s like, “It’s Wanya time. It’s Boyz II Men time.” And so, yeah, I mean, they’re going to church on that one.
music
“On Bended Knee” off the album II by Boyz II Men. Yearning, aching, pleading R&B. [Spoken] I'm sorry I let you down Please forgive me [Sung] I'm gonna swallow my pride Say I'm sorry Stop pointing fingers, the blame is on me I want a new life And I want it with you If you feel the same Don't ever… [Song fades out as Morgan speaks]
morgan
I mean, I agree with everything that you’ve said, but I think that there were probably songs where Wanya gave himself the green light. [Phil and Oliver laugh uproariously and agree while Morgan speaks.] And he was like, “Um, listen, yo, I’m going for—Shawn? I’m going for it.” ‘Cause a few of those jams, I was like, “You might have—could have let Shawn, you know what I’m saying, go to higher heights on this thing.” But I think Wanya—that’s just every group. There’s that one dude.
oliver
MJ with The Rock. “Cartwright, you gotta get out of the way, Curt, I got this, I’m just going, I’m going to the hoop on this one.”
morgan
That’s it! That’s it! And I think he just, you know, he took it up there. I like “I’ll Make Love to You”. I just think that’s—it’s just so sweet. Um, as explicit as I think Boyz II Men could have been for that time, it’s just something that, you know, it just stays with you.
music
“I’ll Make Love To You” off the album II by Boyz II Men. ... let's go slow I ain't got nowhere to go I'm just gonna concentrate on you Girl, are you ready? It's gonna be a long night Throw your clothes (Throw your clothes) On the floor (On the floor) [Music fades out as Oliver speaks]
oliver
We have to talk about the video for this song. [Phil laughs.]
morgan
I knew you were gonna—I knew you were gonna go there.
oliver
This blew my mind. Phil was telling me before we taped, he had never seen it until this past week. Which, I dunno how that is humanly possible, that you had not seen one of the definitive videos. But, this opens up a great question: What did you think of it? As a Boyz II Men fan for 20+ years, never having seen that video, what did you think of it? [Oliver agrees with “Yeah,” “Totally,” and “100%” while Phil speaks.]
phil
What was funny was that, this video, and sort of the template it writes, has been so parodied now over the past 20 years. You know what I mean? It’s—everything about this is so—
oliver
Let’s run the list, right? Narrow sunglasses that you’re kind of peering—your eyes are just peering above them, right? [Phil starts laughing.] People can’t see Morgan’s face, but she’s basically—it’s like she’s got a sinus headache right now. She’s just gripping—she’s gripping her eyes and nose bridge really heavy right now. Matching outfits. I mean, satin jammies for all four of them. Satin jammies in a candlelit room. The sort of madras striped shirts being worn over white t-shirts and white shorts, belted, tucked in white shorts.
morgan
[In a haunted tone.] Those were horrible. [Phil bursts into laughter.] Horrible, yo!
oliver
But my favorite part of the video is just the story behind it. And if you’ve never seen the video… I mean, Morgan, you are familiar with this video.
morgan
[Holding back laughter.] Yes, I am.
oliver
Do you wanna explain the story in the video?
morgan
[Trying to keep her composure.] No. I want you to explain this. [Everyone laughs.]
oliver
So the video opens with Duane Martin, who was on All Of Us. He was also in White Men Can’t Jump, so he was just getting his foot through the door in Hollywood at that time, and he plays a security expert who’s installed an alarm system for a very attractive woman, who clearly, is clearly trying to get it on with him. Like, he cannot seem to catch a hint here. And then throughout the song, we go interspersed between Boyz II Men in various matching outfits looking incredible, and then it comes back to them, these two people, right? The security installer and this woman whose house that has this alarm system. And she’s getting undressed and she’s settling into this nice bath, and he’s trying to figure out how to write a love letter to her. And he gets out the Boyz II Men single of this CD and cribs the notes from the CD to write the love letter, and then drops it off. And because he’s installed the alarm system, like she knows the alarm’s gone off so she goes and she gets the note and she reads it. And in comparison, if you’ve ever watched the video for “On Bended Knee”, it tried to tell three or four different stories, and it’s really hard to follow. “I’ll Make Love To You”, it is beginning middle end. It is super clean. I kind of love it. This video has stayed with me for 20+ years.
morgan
I wanna know who directed that video.
phil
It really—they really do go there with, like, “Oh, how do I get with this girl? How do I tell her how I feel? I’m gonna look up the Boyz II Men lyrics.”
morgan
Because those are perfect!
phil
“I’m gonna crib the—” and I, you know. It’s a modern day Cyrano, right?
oliver
I’m nitpicking here. It’d be one thing if he was trying to woo her. Someone—a reluctant lover, right? And you need to write the perfect letter in order to melt her heart. But she was just straight up trying to give it to him when he was at the house installing this, and it’s not like— My dude, you don’t need to try that hard. Like, she wants you. It’s very clear that she wants you. Everyone watching this video understands this. So I don’t know why you need to write, and also at some very dimly lit desk, these lyrics from a CD in order to be able to pitch woo her. Because she is—she is ready for you.
morgan
I think one thing that we didn’t say is the uniforms that they have on, especially white, are considered… Remember Fredara was here, and she was talking about auntie music?
oliver
Yeah.
morgan
Uncle music and uncle outfits is that white. [Phil and Oliver start laughing.] If you see somebody with that white on today, they’re going to the Playboy Jazz Festival, and they got a Bluetooth headset. They drinking Henney. That’s it. You know, it’s so sad that what happened to that sound, that it just became not cool. Because at the time, Boyz II Men had swag. I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say, sort of always hated the eyewear. So thank you for bringing that up in the video, because it wasn’t just that video where their glasses were all—
oliver
Yes, they did a lot of that narrow sunglasses and peering over—
morgan
It just wasn’t cool. It wasn’t cool. I let the finger thing make it—
oliver
The finger thing was incredible, though. I mean, Wanya basically doing that sexy wag, with the head— [Morgan laughs.] —and the shoulder shake, iconic. I mean, I dunno if he invented it, but he mastered that. That is some shaolin monk level mastery of the finger wag.
phil
I distinctly remember Shawn doing a lot of that too, he—yeah, that was him.
morgan
He did! He did that! And he had the long finger. That’s a whole other show. “Finger Wags in the 90s”.
oliver
I’m embarrassed that I don’t have each of these people memorized. Shawn was the skinny one?
morgan
Shawn was the skinny one.
phil
Slim! His nickname’s Slim.
oliver
Okay. That dude was skinny.
morgan
He was— [She breaks off into snickering.]
oliver
Kevin Durant is slim, like, Shawn was skinny as hell.
morgan
Really skinny, and TV adds 15 pounds to you. Shawn was skinny. ‘Cause he looked skinny in the videos, and he was like, yo, get that boy a pork chop or something. But I thought that they all had their own—what made them separate was their voices. Of course Wanya, but Shawn’s pitch was real high. And whenever they had to go to those real high levels and be soft, that was all him. I think Wanya put the power in power ballad. He was big. And then of course you had Mike, who was just like, he’d come in and he’d be like, “Yo.”
phil
I forgot to mention that, though. On—
morgan
Don’t mention—don’t forget that, Phil!
phil
“On Bended Knee”, right, even has, in addition to all of the stuff I said, it even has Michael McCary coming in there and being like, “Girl—” [Morgan stifles laughter.] “—Baby. Baby, I’m sorry.” You know? And doing his little, soliloquy, right?
morgan
That’s it! That’s it!
music
“On Bended Knee” off the album II, by Boyz II Men. [Spoken] Baby, I'm sorry Please forgive me for all the wrong I've done Please come back home, girl I know you put all your trust in me I'm sorry I let you down Please… [Music fades out as Oliver speaks]
oliver
We will be back with more of our conversation with Phil Yu about Boyz II Men’s II after a brief word from a couple of our other fantastic Maxfun siblings! Keep it locked.
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under The Stairs
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Jesse Thorn: This week on Bullseye, Lin Manuel Miranda on His Dark Materials, hip hop, and life after Hamilton. Lin Manuel Miranda: I know it’s the first line of my obituary. So if that line is handled, then what else can I do with my time here? Jesse: It’s Bullseye from MaximumFun.org and NPR.
promo
Jesse Thorn: Hey, it’s Jesse Thorn. We’re very happy to announce that tickets for MaxFunCon 2020 will go on sale Friday, November 29th, at 11am Pacific. I also want to let you know, this coming year MaxFunCon 2020 will be our last MaxFunCon for the foreseeable future. For 2020 and beyond, we’re going ot be looking for ways to connect with more of you in person and spread the spirit of MaxFun farther than it’s ever gone before. In the meantime, if you want to join us at the last MaxFunCon in Lake Arrowhead, June 12th-14th, you can find details at MaxFunCon.com.
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under The Stairs
morgan
Yo, we are back on Heat Rocks talking Boyz II Men’s II with Phil Yu. You know, I wanted to bring up Evolution, which came after, and the change that happened in just three years. In just three years the whole game changed. You got Evolution, ‘97. Certainly the pressure was on them, because you had two albums that—
oliver
Multi-Multi-Platinum.
morgan
Yeah. And, Evolution only sold two million. Which in today’s economy, would be like, you made it, but then it was like—
oliver
That’s considered a disappointment.
morgan
A huge disappointment. And I’m wondering if, just, their style went out, if the style of R&B went out, or if it just became harder in ‘97, because of hip-hop, to do things that were strictly R&B.
phil
I think it was all that, you know. And I really—I’m gonna go with the pattern of my fandom, of seeking out that album, going to the mall, taking the damn bus to the mall to find the album. When Evolution came out, I was like, “Oh, did they release a new—” [Morgan laughs.] You know, it’d been out for weeks and I didn’t know. And I think I had moved on as a fan, I’m sorry to say. It was like, I don’t know. I think I had lost interest in that style. Definitely, there’s definitely like, I had grown to just become a bigger hip hop fan. Everything that was going out. I was in college at the time. So, yeah. I distinctly remember being like, “Oh, I used to really love Boyz II—they had an album come out? Aw, man.” You know?
morgan
I think that flew under the radar for a lot of people. And I think, just R&B really changed, and it became—I mean, the boy band thing was done. Like, we really didn’t have it in the ways that Boyz II Men gave it to us. If it was four dudes singing together, everyone was rugged, everyone was hard. And they were not that, and had they tried to be that, I don’t think anyone would have bought that at all.
oliver
But wouldn’t this have been the same era in which, and I can’t remember the exact timeline that NSYNC and Backstreet Boys were beginning to blow up. Because that very clean cut, you know, stuff that you can play if you’re like a teenage girl in particular, your parents are not gonna be upset or concerned about it. I mean, we haven’t really talked about this, but I was thinking about this when Phil was mentioning that Boyz II Men was a boy band but you don’t think about them as being a boy band. I think partly because the term I think tends to get reserved for white groups. [Morgan and Phil respond affirmatively.] And that Black groups don’t get that. And NSYNC and Backstreet Boys can be boy bands and they can have their teenage followings. But if you’re a group of Black musicians, you can’t tap into that, because, you know, racism, and all these other things.
morgan
Exactly, and Boyz II Men didn’t have to dance. NSYNC and New Kids On The Block and all that, they were doing all those synchronized moves, you know? I think they were certainly borrowing a lot from some of these Black groups, but it was just a different pitch. They were sold as really innocent, and by the time they came out, you know, guy groups were not—hip hop and R&B had been totally married, and so you were selling hard. You were, you know, and you weren’t singing—you weren’t on bended knee then. You were standing up. You know, when this came out, this time of R&B, hook-ups lasted a weekend and you might get breakfast, you know what I’m saying? [Oliver and Phil laugh.] By the time we got to the rest of it, it was like, “Yo.” That time is over, and I feel bad for Boyz II Men, because I think the style passed on. I think they might have aged out of this sort of R&B and that’s unfortunate.
phil
That’s really interesting because, you know, it’s not like there weren’t Black boy bands, and Boyz II Men were clearly set up as successors to New Edition, right? [Morgan affirms multiple times.] It’s not like there wasn’t a tradition of this, so something in the industry changed. Something about the game changed for—what’s sort of true of all boy bands: people get older.
morgan
They do. They do, and I think when we talk about production, I think Babyface became about the artist and less about groups and stuff, and he had options then. You had all of LaFace, and so you could—you had Usher and then you had Toni Braxton and then—so I think the focus wasn’t really on groups anymore. And that’s unfortunate, because Boyz II Men is one of the best out there. Their songs get played still everywhere. Every top ten radio station, you know, it is—they’re iconic to Black culture. I mean, you’re gonna hear “Mama” at anyone—anyone’s mother passes, you are gonna hear “Mama”, even in a church setting.
music
“A Song For Mama” off the album Soul Food by Boyz II Men. Emotional, soulful, poppy R&B. Your love is like tears from the stars Mama, I just want you to know Loving you is like food to my soul (Yes it is, yes it is) (Oh, yes it is) [Music fades out as Morgan speaks]
morgan
Oh, ”End of the Road” is still always played. Just iconic stuff. So I feel bad that, um. That they didn’t get the love.
oliver
This raises a good question. I was reading something by Panama Jack—who’s one of the writers with Very Smart Brothas, the website—and he wrote that, “When you hear people rave about the groups from the 90s, Boyz II Men rarely gets mentioned.” And, again, not as someone who didn’t follow R&B, that struck me as surprising, because I can’t imagine how a group that big would’ve been left by the wayside in our memory. But that’s his argument. Do we buy this, that Boyz II Men have been somehow underrated in a way when we think back to the 90s?
morgan
I agree with that, because remember in one of our earlier episodes we had Phonte on here, and we name checked a bunch of bands, and Boyz II Men didn’t come— [Phil says “whaaaat!”] It didn’t come up. Damn. I feel bad about myself now.
phil
I think there’s something about their ubiquity in the 90s that made them, at this point everyone is a little—maybe a little bit tired of like, it’s a—I remember that. That was cool, but like, it’s a little bit cooler to mention the ones that got a little less play back then. That, people appreciate, you know? [Morgan responds affirmatively.]
oliver
But I think, if you were to talk about the female equivalent, no one would say that Mariah wasn’t the biggest act in the 90s, and that she would be at the top of that list. But maybe it’s because she was making hit after hit, and back to your point, Morgan, with Boyz II Men, they had two incredible albums, and then kind of like, eh. Didn’t really survive the rest of the decade. Not financially, hopefully they did fine. But, rather, within the kind of public imagination, and therefore the public memory, I guess. When you were re-listening to this, was there a song that really stood out to you this time around that maybe you didn’t give enough appreciation to when you, you know, had first brought the CD home from the mall that day?
phil
You know, I’ll give some love to “Jezzebel”, I think. Just because of the vocal gymnastics they’re doing in that song, you know. They’re showing off in that one, too. [Morgan responds affirmatively several times.] Uh, as a whole, it’s an okay song, but like, their performance in that song. There’s a breakdown that they do that goes acapella, sort of, where they’re really just, like, “We’re going four-part, we’re gonna do it.” They’re showing off. You know.
music
“Jezzebel” off the album II by Boyz II Men. Acapella with four distinct voices. Wanna get to know you Don't know your nationality Can we converse and see? When's a good time to get together? Baby, am I being a little fast? No, I don't know! [Music fades out as Oliver speaks]
oliver
Is there a song on this album that you would like to hear a contemporary artist try to take on?
phil
As a challenge, I’d love to see someone cover “I’ll Make Love To You.” Flip it, do something different. Like, a female artist, a female group. Do something, just, I dunno. As a challenge. Because it feels like it’s so of its time, but I actually really appreciate the sentiment behind it. A lot of it, you know, it’s sort of—it’s so sincere, it’s so concerned with this girl’s—the pleasure. It’s so accommodating, and it deals with consent, you know? And it’s so—it’s, you know, we’ve said it before. We don’t hear songs like this anymore and I’d like to see an artist try this, just as a challenge. It could work, you know?
oliver
Do you have anyone in mind, though?
phil
I so don’t know, like, I haven’t—I do not follow, like—
oliver
Current music.
phil
Current music! So it’s really hard to, I don’t know.
oliver
I think we need to go to the music supervisor. Do you think there’s someone out there who can take on, especially a female group that can take on “I’ll Make Love to You”?
morgan
[Sighs.] Tough crowd. Um, you know, when you started saying this, I thought it would be great to have one person take on this song. And I’m a Jazmine Sullivan fan. So, I would love to hear her arrangement of it, and maybe a little bit more jazzy and slowed down. I was listening to her cover “‘Round Midnight” and it sounded nothing like what I would have expected. It sounded very jazzy gospel, almost to the point where it was like, I didn’t even realize that that’s what she was covering.
music
“‘Round Midnight” by Jazmine Sullivan. Slow, soulful jazz. But it really gets bad 'Round midnight Memories always start ‘Round midnight [Music fades out as Morgan speaks]
morgan
So I’d like to hear Jazmin Sullivan do this. I wouldn’t wanna give this to a group, necessarily.
oliver
I feel bad, but the first—when you said sort of the jazzy arrangement, I just went back to thinking about Fergie. And we just talked about—
morgan
Oh my god. [She laughs.]
oliver
—about Fergie doing the National Anthem— [Phil coughs out laughter.] —on our July 4th episode, and just imagining Fergie using that particular take, and trying to take this song on. [Oliver dissolves into laughter with Phil.]
morgan
Fergie, listen. Fergie, if you’re listening to this, don’t redo this jam right here. Leave Boyz II Men alone.
oliver
But Phil, to your point though, I think it would be very interesting to hear a woman or a group of women take it on. It would change the meaning of the song. Because the fact that this is a group of men, and the sentiments that you were just talking about. [Phil responds “that’s true”.] I think that it would flip it. And maybe that’s what would make it interesting, is to have that flipped. But, a group of women singing that same song, the same lyrics, I mean, however they do the vocal arrangement differently. By no means could it really be the same song. Like, it would be fundamentally different, I think, in changing gender. [Morgan and Phil both agree, saying “True, true.”] Which is maybe all the more reason to do it, just because to hear it, be like, “Oh.” Yeah. For you, thinking back on II, was this album right on time, ahead of its time, or timeless?
phil
You know, I’m gonna say right on time, and in the best possible way, you know. It’s of its era, it sounds like it’s of its era. It’s totally listenable now, but like, it does capture that moment in time, you know, very perfectly and succinctly, and I would say it’s right on time.
morgan
Totally agree. Totally agree.
oliver
We’re all just peering over our narrow sunglasses right now. [Morgan and Phil laugh.] Wagging our fingers at one another. Thinking about this. I’m gonna go out and get a Nautica shirt right now.
morgan
Nautica was—yo, Nautica was in!
oliver
They were. They were repping for Nautica in that.
phil
Yeah. Hard.
morgan
In. Did y’all have any Nautica?
phil
I had a Nautica knock-off. It looked like it, and even the logo looked like it, but it wasn’t.
oliver
I’m pretty sure I had a long sleeve Nautica, uh, polo shirt. And, it wasn’t from Boyz II Men, but it was definitely—
morgan
You so sporty!
oliver
It was definitely some—I’m watching a lot of 90s hip-hop videos, and I’m seeing some of these brands. I never got with Tommy Hilfiger, for whatever reason. But Nautica I could roll with. And that was sort of my inner preppiness, that I think, with a lot of ways I grew up kinda similar to Phil, and there was prep I could roll with. I had Cross Colors gear, I could not pull off Cross Colors.
morgan
Yeah. No, I feel you.
oliver
But like. Some mall brand? Like, you know, nautical themed stuff? Yeah, I could kinda maybe work with that.
morgan
[Oliver says “right,” and “yeah,” while Morgan speaks.] Nautica was clean, too. And the dudes that I knew wore Nautica were like, real preppy, clean dudes. I saw it a lot on college campuses. All East Coast dudes. I never saw any West Coasters with Nautica on. But it looked cool, though.
oliver
We were all just white tees and khakis. [Morgan laughs.] And that was the West Coast thing right?
morgan
Corduroy house shoes and such.
oliver
We weren’t rocking, what, Holly Henson and all that stuff. That was some east coast stuff.
morgan
What about Girbaud, though. Did you ever do—
crosstalk
Oliver & Morgan: _[In unison] —_Girbaud?
morgan
Yeah. Girbaud. [Laughs softly.]
oliver
[Laughs.] No. No, sadly.
morgan
[Shocked] You didn’t do Girbaud?
oliver
No, I think the in—and Phil, I’d be curious for you, like, what were the big pants of that era? Because, you know, I’m about five years older than you, so, Zeke Cavaricci’s. [Morgan and Phil “Ooooh!” in recognition.] If you were a young Asian man in California, back in the 80s at least, Cavaricci was the way to go.
morgan
That was you.
oliver
I did not. I could not afford, or pull off the Zeke Cavaricci, but that was the brand. That was the name that was flown out there as the ring to right retail.
morgan
I know that brand!
phil
See, I was never cool enough. That’s the name I always heard, but I was never cool enough to rock that, right?
oliver
We had to wear jeans our parents bought us from Asia. And shame. Yeah.
phil
Yup! Yup!
morgan
Meanwhile, my brother was over-sagging. Like, overly sagging. Like his jarbos were just super— [Phil and Oliver laugh.] It was like a sagging menace. I remember one morning my mother was like, “Son, you can’t sag in your suits.” We were getting ready to go to church. But he and his friends were very—they had come out of that Oak Tree era, with the colorful suits and the shoulder pads, and they had gone right into sagging. Me, I was a Cross Colors girl, I have to be honest. That was me. So, this album, Boyz II Men’s hella platinum selling album, II. If you had to describe it in three words, what would they be?
phil
[Oliver responds emphatically several times as Phil speaks.] I’ll go with smooth. I’ll go with sincere. Um, and I’ll go with harmony. Harmony.
music
“Water Runs Dry” off the album II by Boyz II Men. We'll make the biggest mistake of our lives Don't do it, baby (Don't do it, baby) [Music fades out as Oliver speaks.]
oliver
That will do it for this episode of Heat Rocks with our special guest, Phil Yu, AKA the Angry Asian Man.
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under The Stairs.
oliver
Phil, what are you working on, now?
phil
Uh, pretty much just working on my blog. Find it at AngryAsianMan.com. Kind of just an everyday thing.
oliver
Your podcast that you do with Jeff Yang, They Call Us Bruce, that’s a weekly?
phil
Uh, it’s a, “whenever we get around to recording the latest episode.” [Morgan and Oliver laugh.] So, uh, yeah, They Call Us Bruce.
oliver
And where else can people find you on the socials?
phil
Uh, they can find me @AngryAsianMan on most platforms.
oliver
You got—you took care of that early on, like no one else can compete with you on that moniker?
phil
Not early enough for some, but uh, for the ones that matter, for the ones that matter.
oliver
You’ve been listening to Heat Rocks with me, Oliver Wang, and Morgan Rhodes.
morgan
Our theme music is “Crown Ones” by Thes One of People Under The Stairs. Shoutout to Thes for the hookup.
oliver
Heat Rocks is produced by myself and Morgan, alongside Christian Dueñas, who also edits, engineers, and does the booking for our shows.
morgan
Our senior producer is Laura Swisher, and our executive producer is Jesse Thorn.
oliver
We are part of the Maximum Fun family, taping every week live in their studio in the west lake neighborhood of Los Angeles, where Morgan and I may or may not be wearing matching satin jammies. [Morgan laughs.] We want to thank all of our five-star iTunes reviewers. Some of the folks who have been in the mix of late saying very nice things about us include Blessaid, who describes our show as taking “your minds on a musical journey beyond boundaries and hopscotch through genres and cover the topics you need to bless your ears with!” Oh, I do feel blessed by that. We also had MuryChris, who has thoroughly enjoyed the show and specifically our “report and intellectual banter on bangers.” That could have been our alternative name, Banter on Bangers.
morgan
Could have been!
oliver
That is a—that’s a heat rock of a comment, right there.
morgan
That’s a spin-off.
oliver
Thank to everyone out there who has left us reviews. If you have not had a chance yet, just remember it is a key way that listeners can find their way—new listeners can find their way to us. So, if you don’t mind just taking out a couple of seconds to do that, that would be wonderful, and we might read parts of our review on air.
morgan
We also want to shout-out our social media fans and family, including the following. We want to shout-out Andre Doudy, his Twitter handle is @NeverADoubt. Thank you so much for shouting us out. We want to shout-out Shimmering Trashpile. [Both laugh.] Shout-out to Shimmering Trashpile. I love our Twitter followers. We want to shout-out Ashley Dior-Thomas, who loved Gerrick Kennedy’s Whitney Houston episode. We want to shout-out Fuzzt0ne. He said, “Shout-out to my new favorite podcast Heat Rocks for showing me a side of music and cultural history I never experienced before. I’m currently on my way through the backlog of episodes and loving every bit of it.” We want to shout-out Frederick Smith as always for holding us down. We want to shout-out Daniel Ben-Zvi, want to shout-out Nandy Bushnell. We also want to shout-out Miss Narine, who pointed Jermaine Dupri to our episode about CrazySexyCool with Frannie Kelley. We also want to shout-out Brigam Fisher, Dylan, Brian Woods, Ginger Slim, shout-out to Ginger Slim. Shout-out to Cee-loo and others. We do so appreciate the tweezies and the retweezies. Good to see you, Oliver.
oliver
Good to see you too, Morgan. One last thing, here is a teaser for next week’s episode, which features veteran R&B singer and songwriter Van Hunt talking about the 1972 gospel album by The Sensational Nightingales, It’s Gonna Rain Again.
van hunt
I can relate to Morgan in that we both came in the AUC area. Atlanta University College area. And through that teaching, I learned about a guy named, uh, John Henrik Clarke, and he talks about how the Greeks and Romans came into Africa, into Egypt specifically, and he said, you know, they found these people treating each other very nicely. And he said they would ask the Egyptians like, what do you call this thing you guys have, and it’s like, nothing, this is just how we treat each other. He said they didn’t even have a name for jail or punishment or anything like that. And he said a very entrepreneurial Roman was like, “Man, we could take this and turn it into something.” He said, suddenly they had a name. They started calling it Christianity. And he said, but that’s not about—you know, that’s a business. He said that how you treat people is what the reality is. And that’s what I hear in that music, and particularly with Charles Johnson, when he sings there’s a very earnestness in his voice. And in fact, I know some of the stories with him and Julius Cheeks were, they were both, you know, very serious about the word and their music, and would actually fall out with the members within their own group. Because they weren’t living by, you know, the words in the songs.
speaker 2
Comedy and culture.
speaker 3
Artist owned—
speaker 4
—Audience supported.
About the show
Hosted by Oliver Wang and Morgan Rhodes, every episode of Heat Rocks invites a special guest to talk about a heat rock – a hot album, a scorching record. These are in-depth conversations about the albums that shape our lives.
Our guests include musicians, writers, and scholars and though we don’t exclusively focus on any one genre, expect to hear about albums from the worlds of soul, hip-hop, funk, jazz, Latin, and more.
New episodes every Thursday on Apple Podcasts or whatever you get your podcasts.
Subscribe to our website updates for exclusive bonus content (including extra interview segments, mini-episodes, etc.)
Meanwhile, you can email us at heatrockspod@gmail.com or follow us on social media:
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