Transcript
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under The Stairs. A fun, funky instrumental.
morgan rhodes
Hello, I’m Morgan Rhodes. My co-host Oliver Wang is away, but will be back next week. So today it’s just me; and you are listening to Heat Rocks. Every episode we invite a guest to join us to talk about a heat rock, you know, incendiary material, an album that feels like fire shut up in your bones; and today, we will be taking it back together to revisit a compilation record released by ABKCO Records called Sam Cooke: Portrait of a Legend.
music
“Nothing Can Change This Love” off the album Portrait of a Legend by Sam Cooke. A slow, tender song. If I go, a million miles away I'd write a letter, each and everyday Cause honey nothing, nothing can ever change this love I have for you
morgan
What a beautiful challenge that had to have been, taking a voice like Sam Cooke’s, a career like Sam Cooke’s, a discography like Sam Cooke’s, and a life like Sam Cooke’s, and compiling 30 gems on a project. ABKCO Records did just this, releasing a Portrait of a Legend on June 17th, 2003. The compilation, bookended by two gospel tracks, “Touch The Hem Of His Garment”, and “Nearer to Thee”, covers the years 1951-1964, from Sam’s humble beginnings as one of the stars of an all-star gospel group, the Soul Stirrers, to pop sensationalism, chief crooner, to fallen star, to legend. A journey chronicled across the liner notes of Peter Guralnick. It’s been said that Sam Cooke invented soul. Sure, and surely he invented the phrase “an old soul”. He always looked and sounded grown, confident, worldly, and wise. Blessed with one of the greatest voices music history has known, he wrote and arranged most of what’s on this album. Evidence of his many gifts, his many moments of sonic excellence, and his many hits. It seems really inappropriate to call Sam Cooke just a great singer. This was a man in possession of one of the greatest, purest instruments in contemporary music history. It charmed us like he did. He and his instrument were swoonworthy, elegant, classic, feel free to insert your own adjective here. “Cupid”, “Only Sixteen”, “Chain Gang”, “Bring It On Home To Me”, “Summertime.” Tons and tons of hits. ABKCO and Sam Cooke gave us the ultimate thirty for thirty, a curated look into the heart of a man born by the river in a little tent, who through his work on a mic and in a booth, sent us.
music
“Nothing Can Change This Love” off the album Portrait of a Legend by Sam Cooke. Wo-oh-oh, you're the apple of my eye, you're cherry pie And oh you're, you're cake and ice cream
morgan
Portrait of a Legend was the album pick of our guest today, Lee Fields. I came to know the music of Lee Fields through a song I fell in love with, called “Honey Dove”.
music
“Honey Dove” off the album My World by Lee Fields & The Expressions Don’t leave me like this Can't go on So my love for you, girl, is so going strong And if you leave me, baby No, I won't, I won't last for long [Music fades out as Morgan speaks.]
morgan
The album, 2009’s My World, was a collaboration with The Expressions, and it stayed on heavy repeat as I bounced back and forth between that song, “Money is King”, “My World”, and “Love Comes and Goes.” With fifty years in the business as a songwriter and artist, he’s a statesman, what we call an O.G., a pioneer, a journeyman, and an institution of soul. While we have classic revivalist soul record labels, like Truth & Soul Records, Big Crown, Daptone, and even Ace to thank for immortalizing his music on wax, we have him to thank for the wisdom, the vulnerability, and the honesty that graces each song. He is a testament to longevity, and one of the reasons that real soul music remains cool, and relevant. When you mention the music and talent of Lee Fields, the words timeless and classic should be included. I was thrilled to feature his song, “I’m The Man” in Dear White People for Netflix, and I am even more thrilled to have him in studio to join us today. Lee Fields, welcome to Heat Rocks.
lee fields
Thank you for having me.
morgan
So glad to have you, and I want to start our conversation with reading you a quote from Aretha Franklin about Sam Cooke. She said, “Sam Cooke had a huge influence on me. He left the gospel field at one point and went into the secular field, and he had this huge hit, ‘You Send Me’. Irma, my older sister, and I heard ‘You Send Me’ on the radio while we were driving through the south one night. We had to stop the car. We got out and danced around the car out on the highway.” So I guess my first question is, what was the first Sam Cooke song you remember hearing, and what was your reaction to it the first time you heard it?
lee
The first Sam Cooke song that I remember hearing was “Touch The Hem of His Garment.”
music
“Touch The Hem of His Garment” off the album Portrait of a Legend by Sam Cooke. A gentle soul song. Oh, she spent her money here and there Until she had no, had no more to spare, The doctors, they'd done all they could But their medicine would do no good [Music continues quietly as Lee speaks.]
lee
When I heard “The Hem of His Garment”, I guess I was about, probably six, and everybody was playing. They were talking about this group called the Soul Stirrers, and I wondered who this group was that was causing such an interest in—all the older people that were around, they were talking about the Soul Stirrers and this guy named Sam Cooke.
music
[Music swells louder.] She stood there crying: “Oh Lord, Oh Lord and Oh Lord, Oh Lord' Said: “If I could just touch the hem of His garment, I know I'll made whole right now” [Music ends.]
lee
The next thing I know, I remember he was singing another kind of music, “Darling, You Send Me.”
music
“You Send Me” off the album Portrait of a Legend by Sam Cooke. Gentle, crooning soul with tender backing vocals. Darling, you send me I know you send me Darling, you send me Honest you do, honest you do Honest you do, whoa [Song fades out as Lee speaks.]
lee
So it was like Sam Cooke was in my face from early childhood.
morgan
This is a compilation album that you chose, Portrait of a Legend, and it covers his work from 1951-1964. As you know, he had well over seven studio albums. What drew you to this particular album, or why did you choose this one to talk about?
lee
Because it seemed like it embodied all of his really great hits, and each and every one of these songs seems, to me, as if it couldn’t get any better. Every time you listen to another one, it gets better, until you come back around to the first one. Every time you listen to Sam it gets better and better.
morgan
I want to get into more of the discussion about this very stacked album, but I want to start at the end of the album. The last track on the compilation is a hidden one. It’s a portion of Sam Cooke’s interview with a DJ named Montague the Magnificent, and for those people listening that are from L.A., he was a prolific DJ, spent a lot of time pushing soul music on a radio station here called KGFJ. Earlier in the interview, he asks Sam about one of his favorite songs.
clip
[excerpt of the hidden track on the album Portrait of a Legend containing an interview conducted by DJ Magnificent Montague with Sam Cooke] Magnificent Montague: Sam, I’ll tell you what I could do. I’d like for you to pick one of your tunes, one of your favorite tunes out, and you recite the first line. Sam: That’s fine. Magnificent Montague: What is your favorite record that you made? Sam: One of my favorite records is called “You Were Made For Me.” Magnificent Montague: What does the first line say? Sam: _[speaking gently] “_A fish was made to swim in the ocean, a boat was made to sail on the sea. But sure as there are stars above, you were made for me.”
music
“You Were Made For Me” off the album Portrait of a Legend by Sam Cooke. Tender, gentle, romantic music. You were made for me A grape was made to grow on a vine An apple was made to grow on a tree As sure as there are stars above I know, I know you were made for me [Song fades out.]
morgan
Now, that’s one of his favorite songs on this compilation, featured as well. And I know there are tons of songs on here, so it even seems wrong to ask; but can we start by talking about one of your favorites?
lee
“Only Sixteen.”
morgan
[Makes a noise of agreement.]
lee
When I first heard that record, it seemed like it was so innocent. I don’t think no one would ever be able to recapture the emotion that he put in that song, because it was so simple.
music
“Only Sixteen” off the album Portrait of a Legend by Sam Cooke. A gentle, upbeat R&B tune. We'd laugh and we'd sing And do the little things That made my heart glow But she was too young to fall in love And I was too young to know [Music fades out as Morgan speaks.]
morgan
So one of the stories behind this song was that the inspiration for the song was the sixteenth birthday of Lou Rawls’ stepsister, and the song was supposed to be originally recorded for someone else, written by Sam but recorded by someone else, and the person that was supposed to record it didn’t like the song at all, and so Sam was pretty heartbroken about it, so decided to sing it himself. So, thank God he decided to sing it himself.
lee
Yeah, I would agree.
morgan
It’s really innocent and sweet and one of my favorites on the album as well. Later on in the interview, and on this same track, this DJ Montague asked Sam Cooke to define soul music.
clip
_[_clip of the hidden track on the album Portrait of a Legend containing an interview conducted by DJ Magnificent Montague with Sam Cooke] Magnificent Montague: Every day I try to describe soul. Maybe you could hum eight bars of what soul represents. Sam: [Hums several gentle, melodic, soulful notes.]
morgan
How would you describe soul music if I posed the question to you, and also, on top of that, what makes Sam Cooke’s voice so soulful?
lee
Soul music is of the spirit. The soul is the part of humans that determines what is right and what is wrong. Soul is akin to gospel, it’s like gospel’s first cousin. Gospel is about the when and the then. Soul music is about the here and the now, but hoping that it will be pleasing to God. That’s my interpretation of soul music.
morgan
What do you think it was that made Sam Cooke’s voice so soulful, even in that little clip that we heard that he was asked to improvise?
lee
I really don’t know that much about his life other than his music, but it seemed to me, he was a person who was really, really—had belief that God was actually real. I think he was at war, probably with the spiritual side of himself, and the worldly side of himself. He was walking a line between worldly things and spiritual things, but he truly believed that God is real and he knew God was watching.
morgan
The compilation starts with gospel, and it ends with gospel. It starts with “Touch The Hem of His Garment” and it ends with “Jesus Gave Me Water,” and in the middle you have all of his hits, and I love “Touch The Hem of His Garment” and “Jesus Gave Me Water”. When I was working on the music for Selma was when I came to know the music of the Soul Stirrers. We actually used the song “Last Mile of the Way.”
music
“The Last Mile of the Way” off the album The Last Mile of the Way by Sam Cooke and the Soul Stirrers. Gentle, soulful gospel. If I were, for Christ to proclaim the glad story, oh Lord If I see for his sheep who gone astray, oh Lord I am sure… [Music fades out as Morgan speaks.]
morgan
We know that a lot of artists have struggled with church—worldly music versus Christian music. Marvin Gaye is one example. There’s a very good scene in the documentary about Aretha Franklin, Amazing Grace, where her father comes to the pulpit and he says—
clip
[excerpt from the documentary Amazing Grace] C.L. Franklin: I went in the cleaners one day in Detroit to pick up some clothes, and Aretha had appeared on a recent television show, and she told me, “I saw your daughter Aretha last night.” I said, “Yes, how did you like it?” She said, “It was alright, but I’ll be glad when she comes back to the church.” I said, “Listen, baby. Let me tell you something.” [crowd laughs] “If you wanna know the truth, she has never left the church.” [crowd applauds and cheers]
morgan
Would you say, or in your opinion, when we think about Sam Cooke’s voice: is he a gospel artist with a side of soul, or is he a soul artist influenced by gospel?
lee
His whole reign of his success was a gospel singer. There was singing—I wouldn’t call it secular music—but singing of things that people feel in the world. His songs wasn’t like, luring people to do the wrong. He sang about people, feelings at the time. How you really, actually feel.
morgan
I’ve heard that Sam Cooke was a fan of the blues. So, it was nice to hear his song on here, “Little Red Rooster”, which is one of my favorites. It’s a song originally recorded by Willie Dixon and covered by a lot of other people, but it is one of the songs, when it comes on this album, I’m so excited to hear it.
music
“Little Red Rooster” off the album Portrait of a Legend by Sam Cooke. A crooning blues song. The dogs begin to bark The hounds begin to howl Watch out, all you kinfolk My little red rooster's on the prowl! [Song fades out.]
morgan
I bring this song up because, as much as people think there’s such a difference between—a separation between—blues and gospel, this song, although it’s a blues song, sounds really gospel-y to me. What do you think about it?
lee
I think Sam sang about the when and the then and the beginning, the gospel, and then he sang about the way people actually felt, and I think, you know, it’s up to different opinions. Nobody knows but God.
morgan
Right.
lee
But I truly believe that the stuff that he sang that weren’t gospel were giving people a positive feeling about themselves, because he sang about how people love each other. You know, like Frankie and Johnny.
music
“Frankie and Johnny” off the album Sam Cooke at the Copa by Sam Cooke. Mid-tempo, crooning soul. Frankie and Johnny was sweethearts At least that's the way the story goes Frankie bought everything for Johnny From his sports car to his Ivy League clothes Aw, he was a man alright Oh, but he was doing her wrong [Song fades out.]
lee
He sang about reality, to people who did those things, and are still doing those things, still hurting each other. And he sang about “Little Red Rooster”. That’s a metaphor of like, a rooster keeping all of his, uh… that’s a pimp. That’s a pimp out there, keeping all of the chicks in place. But, by the same token, the stories are told.
morgan
Right.
lee
I could play it in front of my child, without having to close the door.
morgan
Sure.
lee
Because he said it in a fashion that where, we knew as adults what he was talking about, but children that were underage, you could play it for them, they wouldn’t even know what the story is about. They would think it’s a bunch of chickens, you know?
morgan
Listen, I’m grown, [laughing] and I didn’t know what it was about!
lee
[Laughs.]
morgan
This is news to me. I had no clue, but uh.
lee
So, that being said, I think if we followed his framework of how to do things, I think it would be inspirational, actually, for the youth, because if the song is great enough, and the adults are around laughing and enjoying himself about the song, then the children will become curious to actually wanna know what are they saying in the record, singing about a rooster. Then they are sort of being more inquisitive, and they will become smarter. So, Sam—if we followed Sam’s pattern, and his way of doing things, I think the radio waves today would be a lot cleaner, we’d be a lot more, uh— show a lot more courtesy, and I think there’d be a lot more love in the world today. Every song that Sam Cooke made, I could play in front of my children, and feel good about it.
morgan
What’s one that comes to mind, as we’re talking about sort of the wholesomeness and the stuff that you could play?
lee
Any of the songs. “Chain Gang” for instance. Now, we’re talking about a prison system here.
morgan
[Laughs.]
lee
We’re talking about a prison system, but Sam Cooke sang about the rough things, the chain gang, and you didn’t hear any vulgarity, and you really could feel the pain of those men under duress and the pain that they were going through, just the emotion in his voice.
music
“Chain Gang” off the album Portrait of a Legend by Sam Cooke. An R&B song with an almost-upbeat tune accompanied by soulful, nearly-sorrowful singing. That's the sound of the men Working on the chain, gang Can't you hear them singing, mmm hoh ah I'm going home one of these days I'm going home, see my woman Whom I love so dear But meanwhile, I gotta work right here Well don't you know That's the sound of the men… [Song fades out.]
lee
When you heard that song, “Chain Gang”, you could almost feel the stress and the pain that those men were enduring. Sam’s format, to me, is still the musical format that I choose to take my music.
music
[“Chain Gang” fades back in.] … on the chain, gang All day long they're singing, mm (hoh ah) My, my, my, my, my, my, my, my work is so hard Give me water, I'm thirsty, my, my work is so hard Woah-oh My, my, my, my, my, my, my, my work is so hard [Song fades back out.]
morgan
This compilation has 30 songs, and quite a few of them are his big hits. And so although I’m familiar with a lot of the songs on this album, the ones that I remember hearing a lot, or hearing people sing a lot, were some of the hits, and one of my favorites is “Cupid.”
lee
Yeah, it was a beautiful song. Is a beautiful song.
music
“Cupid” off the album Portrait of a Legend by Sam Cooke. Romantic, longing soul music with tender, pleading vocals. Cupid! Draw back your bow And let your arrow go Straight to my lover's heart for me, nobody but me Cupid! Please hear my cry! And let your arrow fly… [Song fades out as Morgan speaks.]
morgan
I love how he talks about love in almost a way that a child could understand. He makes Cupid a figure, “Cupid, hold back your bow”, and I just remember hearing people sing that, or hearing people hum that, hearing that on the radio. This was one of the things that I knew that would be able to be played amongst generations.
music
[“Cupid” fades back in.] Now, Cupid! Don't you hear me Calling you? I need you Cupid! Help me I need you Cupid! Don't fail me! [Song fades out again as Morgan resumes speaking.]
morgan
And it isn’t that he’s not talking about sensuality, relationships, but he’s talking about it in a way that’s so innocent and sweet, and the way his voice goes around these chords, and these instruments, it receives to me as very innocent. One of the things that is the most refreshing about this compilation is, there are so many songs on here, you really get to see all sides of Sam, and his range. You get to see he goes—he does the up-tempo stuff, he does “Twistin’ the Night Away”, he does “Shake”. He does Gershwin, he does “Summertime”. He does the gospel hits. He does ballads; “You Send Me.” I guess if I had a favorite, “You Send Me” is one of them, because it’s so soft.
lee
Yeah, but I also like—I like “You Send Me”. I also like “Bring It on Home to Me.”
morgan
Oh, sure.
music
“Bring It on Home to Me” off the album Portrait of a Legend by Sam Cooke. A tender, romantic, soulful track. Baby if you (oh), bring it to me Bring your sweet loving Bring it on home to me Yeah (yeah) yeah (yeah) yeah (yeah) You know… [Music fades out as Morgan speaks.]
morgan
With Lou Rawls singing. Very call and response, and tender. I think what makes these songs timeless and last forever is they harken back to a time, and sometimes I try to tell my niece and nephew, like, “I may not be around, but I just want to see if any of the stuff that you’re listening to, you’ll be able to listen to in a Walgreens or a drug store later.”
lee
I don’t think so.
morgan
Because—[laughs]—because it’ll be hard walking in there with your children hearing some of the stuff that you’re listening to today. Will it make you feel good? Will it last? Will they be playing it then? And so to the point that you’re making, which I think is an excellent one, the way Sam was able to talk about love and relationships, as we both know is adult content, he did it in a way that wasn’t offensive, it wasn’t explicit, and I think it’s one of the reasons why it’s stood the test of time. We will be back on Heat Rocks talking about this gorgeous album, Portrait of a Legend: Sam Cooke, with our guest on Heat Rocks today, Lee Fields. Don’t go anywhere.
promo
[Wolf howls. Dramatic piano and organ music. Throughout, the wolf howls again, and a crow caws.] April Wolfe: Hello there, ghouls and gals. It is I, April Wolfe. I'm here to take you through the twisty, scary, heart-pounding world of genre cinema on the exhilarating program known as Switchblade Sisters. [Sinister echo on the title.] The concept is simple: I invite a female filmmaker on each week, and we discuss their favorite genre film. Listen in closely to hear past guests, like The Babadook director Jennifer Kent, Winter's Bone director Debra Granik, and so many others every Thursday on MaximumFun.org. Tune in! If you dare... [Thunder booms, something growls over April as she cackles evilly, and then all sound abruptly cuts.] April: [Rapidly] It's actually a very thought-provoking show that deeply explores the craft and philosophy behind the filmmaking process while also examining film through the lens of the female gaze. So, like, you should listen. [Same sinister echo effect] Switchblade Sisters!
promo
[music: “Money Won’t Pay” off the album Pale Machine by Bo En (feat. Augustus).] Rachel: Hi, this is Rachel McElroy. Griffin: Hello, this is Griffin McElroy. Rachel: And this is Wonderful! Griffin: It’s a podcast that we do as—we mar—we are married, and—how’s the ad going so far? Because I think it’s going very good. Rachel: [Laughs] We talk about things we like every week on Wednesdays. Griffin: One time Rachel talked about pumpernickel bread. It was so tight. You cannot afford to miss her talking about this sweet brown bread. Rachel: We also talk about music, and poems, and, you know, weather. Griffin: There was one—weather? Rachel: [Laughs.[ Griffin: One time Rachel talked about “Baby Beluga”, the song, for like, fourteen minutes; and it just really blew my hair back. Rachel: [Laughs] So check us out on maximumfun.org. Griffin: It’s a cool podcast with chill vibes. Amber is the color of our energy, is what all the iTunes reviews say. Rachel: They will now.
morgan
Alright, and we are back on Heat Rocks talking Sam Cooke’s Portrait of a Legend, the compilation album that covers 13 years of his career, 1951-1964, with our special guest, Lee Fields. Of the 30 songs on this album that you’ve chosen, Sam Cooke wrote 24 of them. Either he wrote, or co-wrote.
lee
It was amazing.
morgan
Incredible songs. So, over his career he’s written over 150 songs, he’s had 27 number one hits, and he was inducted into the Songwriters Hall of Fame. One of my favorites, lyrically, is a song called “Nothing Can Change This Love.”
lee
Yeah, I love that song as well.
music
“Nothing Can Change This Love” off the album Portrait of a Legend by Sam Cooke. A slow, tender song. But if you wanted to leave me and roam When you got back, I'd just say, “Welcome home!” Cause honey nothing, nothing, nothing Can ever change this love I have for you Whoa-oh… [Song fades out as Morgan talks.]
morgan
Simple, sweet, pretty. One of the songs that I was going to mention is not an original song of his. I first came to know it through Nat King Cole, and that’s “(I Love You) For Sentimental Reasons.”
lee
Yeah, oh that was a beautiful song.
morgan
Um, I love Nat King Cole’s version. I love Sam Cooke’s version of it.
music
“(I Love You) For Sentimental Reasons” off the album Portrait of a Legend by Sam Cooke. Tender, romantic music. Whenever you are in sight I know, I know, I know I love, love, love, love you And you alone were meant for me Please give your loving, loving, loving Loving, loving, loving heart to me And tell we will never part [Music fades out as Morgan speaks.]
morgan
A different arrangement. Obviously, Nat King Cole, more of a crooner. But this one I love because it’s more approachable, I would say. It feels more down home, and to me almost like a little bit of a country twang, and of course that’s something that was covered and made famous by Nat King Cole, but one of my favorites on this album.
lee
Yeah, the songs that Sam made were songs that, actually when you hear the lyrics, it’s almost like you can see. You see these characters. You can see the characters. Its stories not only were sounds, but its story became almost like a living vision.
morgan
What’s the song—even if it’s not on here—but what’s the Sam Cooke song you frequently find yourself humming? What’s the song, when you’re humming Sam Cooke, are the first song that comes to mind when you think of him. Most often.
lee
Two songs. Uh, “Summertime.” Love “Summertime.”
music
“Summertime” off the album Portrait of a Legend by Sam Cooke. Soft, gentle, melodic soul. You spread your wings and take to the sky But until that morning, there is nothing can harm you [Music fades out as Lee speaks.]
lee
And, we’re going back to the, um—”You Send Me.” I sing that a lot.
music
“You Send Me” off the album Portrait of a Legend by Sam Cooke. Gentle, crooning soul with tender backing vocals. At first I thought it was infatuation But, whoo, it's lasted so long Now I find myself wanting To marry you and take you home I know, I know, I know… [Song fades out as Morgan speaks.]
morgan
What is it about those two?
lee
Well, “Summertime”, I can actually see… see this farm in my head, this cotton farm. It’s just like the story comes to life, the way he sang it. Because I remember back in the days where it used to be, when people in the region that I came from in North Carolina, the only thing basically was to do was to put in tobacco and pick cotton. Rustic work. And that was how, basically, the people of color, uh… survived, back in those days. So when I hear “Summertime”, I can see a guy in Atlanta on a porch, man, you know, chilling. You know, he just finished a hard days’ work, you know? I can feel the heat. The heat of the summer.
morgan
I’m glad you’re mentioning that, ‘cause I was gonna—I was gonna ask you that question. Because I’m not a singer, so I don’t know, you know, all the things that go into singing, vocal arrangements; but what is it that makes Sam Cooke, the way he embodies a song, what is the lesson that he could teach other songwriters? Or what is that special thing that he does as a songwriter, as a singer, that resonates with you?
lee
The way he sings his songs… you can visually see it. Because, um, I know what inspires me when I sing! Uh, when I come—the songs I sing… for the time I’m singing those songs, I’m actually living that song. Because—how can I say it in a realistic way? I have to imagine myself actually being the character that I’m singing about. And Sam Cooke, when I hear Sam Cooke songs, I can see the character; so I would assume that he became those characters. So he was a great storyteller.
crosstalk
Morgan: Sure. Lee: I think that’s what makes Sam Cooke the… the great vocalist he was, was he was a great, great storyteller, and he knew how to express. You know, when you’re a kid, you have someone to read you a story, your momma or your daddy come into the bedroom to read you a story;, and they might say, “and then he had a real biiiig—” you know—[chuckles]. Morgan: Yeah. Lee: “—he had a real big sword in his hand! He couldn’t! Even! Move! He was petrified.”
lee
When you hear people like, uh, put drama in the way they talk—
morgan
Sure.
lee
— that makes the story more. “And what’d he do, dad? What’d he do?” “Well, he just went to sleep, son.” [Laughs.]
morgan
Yeah. Yeah. Some of these songs are—do—do feel like stories, like “Sugar Dumpling.”
music
“Sugar Dumpling” off the album Portrait of a Legend by Sam Cooke. And upbeat and romantic song. Listen while I tell you a story A story about my girl Now, I call her Sugar Dumpling Because she's the sweetest things in this world! [Music fades out as Morgan speaks.]
morgan
Must be said about Sam Cooke that one of the things that made him really unique and interesting, especially in this time of music, was that not only was he in control of a lot of his own songs and the publishing on them, but he was opening doors and producing for other artists. Um, he said on many, many interviews that the next phase of his career was he really wanted to open the door for younger artists, and he certainly did that. Billy Preston was one of them, Lou Rawls was another. That was his goal, that he wanted to produce for others; and I’m sure it’s hard to speculate, because we have lost Sam, but where do you see his career having gone had he lived? What do you think was the next logical step for him?
lee
Well, Sam, uh… he was very intellectual. I see Sam, if he would have lived… probably would have been some sort of, uh, politician. [Morgan makes a thoughtful noise.] Not only could he sing, he could speak. He could speak well, and back at that time, seeing a man of color on TV speaking as well as he did was very rare.
morgan
There’s a great interview, to that point, with him and Dick Clark. Dick Clarke is asking him, what are his plans? What’s he going to be doing?
clip
_[_Excerpt of an interview between Dick Clark and Sam Cooke.] Dick: What do you hope to do in the future? You’re doing different things now, aren’t you? Sam: Yeah, well, now, Dick, I’m working mostly with other young singers, you know, I— Dick: Wait a minute, wait a minute. Young singers? Cassius Clay is a young singer? Sam: [Laughs.] Dick: Did you do that record? Sam: Yes I did. You know, not the, uh, the “Stand By Me.” I did the one called, “Hey, Hey, The Gang’s All Here.” Dick: Was it fun? Sam: It’s a lot of fun, because Cassius is a fun guy.
music
“The Gang’s All Here” by Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali. An upbeat, fun song with steady backing vocals that builds in tempo over the first verse. Are you ready! (Yeah!) Am I the greatest! (Yeah!) Hey, hey The gang’s all here! Join in the fun Hey, hey The gang’s all here! We gonna swing as one One more time! Hey, hey The gang’s all here… [Song fades out as the interview resumes.]
clip
[Continuation of excerpt of an interview between Dick Clark and Sam Cooke.] Dick: Are you traveling like you used to? Sam: No, no, Dick. I’m mostly staying home now. Dick: Will you produce and write some more? Sam: I’m producing and writing, as I said, for other people. Dick: What could be the greatest thing in the world that would happen to you, if you had your choice? Sam: The greatest thing to happen to me, if all the singers I’m connected with had hits. Dick: [Laughs.] I will knock on wood and hope the whole thing goes— [Interview fades out.]
morgan
—and he famously said, um, “talk the song,” and that a song should be a conversation between people; but it should also tap into the themes of the day, and no song does that more than “Change Gonna Come.” Of course, we know that was released by RCA Victor in 1964, first as part of the album, Ain’t That Good News, and then they did it as a single. “Change Gonna Come” is precious to me, but also precious to my father. And every time I call my father, this is what I hear:
clip
[Sound of phone ringing.] Metallic, Tinny Voice: Please enjoy this Verizon ringback tone while your party is reached. [A metallic clip of the song begins that fades into a clearer studio recording.]
music
“A Change Is Gonna Come” off the album Ain’t That Good News by Sam Cooke. Grand, inspiring soul with soaring vocals. I was born by the river in a little tent Oh, and just like the river I've been running ever since It's been a long… [Music fades out as Morgan talks.]
morgan
Every time I call him, this is his ring tone, and it has been his ring tone for, I think, ten years. This song is precious to him, precious to everyone. Rolling Stone considers the song one of their 500 greatest songs of all time. It was selected for inclusion in the National Recording Registry, and of course, Barack Obama quoted this song at his inaugural speech.
clip
[Excerpt of Former President Barack Obama’s inaugural speech.] Barack: It’s been a long time coming. Crowd: [Scattered cheers.] Barack: But tonight, because of what we did on this day, in this election, at this defining moment, change has come to America! Crowd: [Breaks into wild cheers.]
morgan
For me, the song is all-encompassing, and it grabs me even before Sam starts singing. You know that it’s going to be big when the chords start—
lee
Yeah.
morgan
—even before he opens his mouth to say something as simple as, “I was born by the river.” I love his version of the song. Obviously, it’s the classic, it’s the first; and there’s a feeling that I feel every time I hear it, because of what I mentioned to you, that sweeping beginning. That I ha—that when you hear the beginning of the song, you have no idea where it’s going. But I also like two versions—two cover versions of the album—by two artists that he profoundly influenced.
music
“A Change Is Gonna Come” off the album I Never Loved a Man The Way I Love You by Aretha Franklin. Similar to the first clip played above; but with more gospel influences and clear, soaring vocals. It's been a long, a long time coming But I know my change has got come Oh, yeah [Music fades to a lower volume, then continues to play quietly as Morgan and Lee speak.]
morgan
Church song. Straight gospel. That’s what that sounds like to me.
lee
Yeah, it was.
morgan
Straight gospel.
lee
It was right out of the church.
morgan
Yup.
music
[Music increases in volume again.] I went to my brother And I asked him, "Brother Could you help me, please?” [Music crossfades into the Otis Redding cover below.]
morgan
And then Otis Redding’s.
music
“A Change Is Gonna Come” off the album Otis Redding Sings Soul by Otis Redding. A slower, impassioned cover of the song. He turned me down and then I ask my dear mother, oh I said "Mother!" I said "Mother! I'm down on my knees!" It's been a time that I thought... [Music fades out as Lee speaks.]
lee
I think, Otis—if I would have to describe the two, each one of these artists, their emotions, were… beyond what ordinary artists could—could ever project.
morgan
Right.
lee
But I think what—Otis was a little bit… was a little bit raw, rawer than Sam. Otis went for the natural emotions. The natural, um, emotions. Sam… went for the emotion, but he did it in more of a smoother pattern.
morgan
Smooooth, yeah.
lee
A smoother pattern.
morgan
Yeah. [Morgan repeats “yeah” emphatically several times through Lee’s next several sentences.]
lee
But Otis was smooth as well; but Otis had raw emotions that he just let loose, and he would get you, um, uh… emotionally. The same way Sam would get you; but Sam had a way of just… melodically connecting all the things, going around the chords, and in and out of the chords, to a degree where he would just charm you! To a point where, you’re at the same place that Otis took youand Otis with raw emotions took you; but Sam did it in more of a—it was just, all of a sudden, you’re there. Yeah, and he did it with such ease.
morgan
Ease, and class, and smoothness, and smoothness. I always felt like Otis was like a man possessed; but I loved how he took over a song, and sometimes you see those performances on video. He’s sweating! He’s got a handkerchief and he’s sweating! Sam Cooke was debonair, smooth.
lee
Yeah, although you would get to the same place, but Sam just had a way of, all of a sudden, you go— when you begin the ride, you wonder where you’re going; and all of a sudden, you’re there.
morgan
[Chuckling] Yeah. Yeah.
lee
Otis—Oti was, like, luring you in with his raw emotions. It was two great artists. Two great artists. Really, both of those two guys, man, I love both of them. Dearly.
music
Otis Redding’s cover of “A Change Is Gonna Come” fades in again over Lee’s last sentence. ... it's been so long It's been so long A little too long But a change has gotta come [Trumpets flourish, and the song picks up in tempo as Otis’ voice grows even more impassioned] I'm so tired! So tired of suffering And standing by myself! And standing up alone! But a change has gotta come [Trumpets flourish again] You know and I know! You know that I know! [Music fades out as Morgan speaks.]
morgan
Is there a song from this album that you would cover? That you would record for an album of your own?
lee
Of course. I would, uh… I probably would cover, “Bring It On Home To Me.”
morgan
Why that one?
lee
I believe I could really get into that song.
morgan
[Laughs.]
lee
Um. Then, I would probably cover, “Touch The Hem Of His Garment.”
morgan
Oh, yeah.
lee
Those two. I’m not, like, one of those holier-than-thou guys. But it’s just something that just, all my life has been about the spirit, and it’s been about the music that I sing, and it always comes back to God. I talk about God all the time, always have. And I don’t know why. I guess because I—what I see, what I witness every day, and I’m wondering… if there’s a, um, entity or power? Or… is it just letting things just run rampant? Because the world could do so many good things, cleaning up the oceans and stuff like that, and the atmosphere, and... So it’s very depressing—and then, it’s always the God, it comes back to the God thing. And with Sam Cooke, for instance, um… I would do, definitely, a gospel that he did.
morgan
Sure.
lee
Because those are the kinds of songs I sing, I sing about what people do. Some—not in the way that Sam did. No one could do it that way. Sam was the, uh, the master of that.
music
“Touch The Hem Of His Garment” off the album Portrait of a Legend by Sam Cooke. A gentle soul song. ... but she heard about Jesus was passing by, So she joined the gathering throng And while she was pushing her way through, Someone ask her: "What are you trying to do?" She said, "If I..." [Music fades, continues quietly under Morgan’s next sentence, and then fades out entirely.]
morgan
If you had to describe this album in three words, what would they be?
lee
Absolutely. Magnificent. Incredible! Those would be the three words. And if I could find something to even be more descriptive, [chuckles] I’d be looking for another one! [Morgan chuckles.]
music
“You Were Made For Me” begins quietly playing. The lyrics are sung softly under Lee’s next sentence. And I'll never, never, never, never Never leave you
lee
Because the album is just… truly greatness.
music
[Music swells louder.] As sure as there’s a heaven up above me From you I know I'll never be free, no, no As sure as there are stars above I know, I know you were made for me… [Music fades out as Morgan speaks.]
morgan
Thank you so much, um, for picking this album, for picking this artist. We haven’t had anyone come to talk to us about Sam Cooke; so thank you so much for giving us— [“Crown Ones” begins playing quietly.] —both the benefit of your experience with the song, um, and your wisdom as a singer-songwriter yourself. Can you let everybody know, uh, what you’re working on now?
lee
We just released an album, it is called It Rains Love, which is doing very well. And, at the moment, I’m touring. Uh, we just got back from Mexico City, and, uh… So it’s been… tour dates after tour dates. And—which I’m not complaining! Because that’s what I’m in the business for— [Morgan chuckles.] —to stay busy! Because I enjoy performing, uh, for people. I’m really having the time of my life, and I also want to thank you for having me here today. Taking your time out and having me here today, I really, really appreciate it.
morgan
I’m honored. You’ve been listening to Heat Rocks with me, Morgan Rhodes. Oliver Wang will be back next week. Our theme music is “Crown Ones” by Thes One of People Under The Stairs. Shout-out to Thes for the hookup. Heat Rocks is produced by myself and Oliver Wang, alongside Christian Duenas, who also books, edits, and engineers our shows. Shout-out to Christian! Our senior producer is Laura Swisher, and our executive producer is Jesse Thorn. We are part of the Maximum Fun family, taping every week live in the Westlake neighborhood of Los Angeles, where we are twisting the night away. We also want to thank our social media fans and family, including the following: @channelsubtext, who really enjoyed, um, Jimetta Rose’s episode on Rufus & Chaka Khan. We also want to thank Karine L-J @topstitchgirl for posting her Heat Rocks pins. I still need my pin, what’s up, Jesse Thorn? We also want to shout-out @HariAlluri, who enjoyed the TLC’s CrazySexyCool episode. Want to thank, um, Frosty for giving us a shoutout. Also want to thank @GlennAstro. Also want to thank Gregory The A’ight @driven2drink. Peter McClennon. We also want to thank Kevin Smokler, as always. Rob Milton. Patrick Miller. We also want to thank, um, Harold Little, Jason Woodburys also, and Daniel Harmon. We do so appreciate the tweezies, and the re-teweezies, and before I get out of here, here is a teaser for next week’s episode. It’s writer Jeff Chang talking about the soundtrack to the 1983 cult classic, Wild Style.
oliver wang
As you wrote, “Wild Style remains the only hip-hop film and soundtrack that adequately conveys the communal thrill of merging with the tide, riding the lightning.” I’m wondering about—
crosstalk
Jeff: I wrote that? Oliver: You did. Jeff: Damn! Wow. Oliver: It’s a good line, man. Morgan: Fire. Jeff: It’s pretty good. Oliver: You had some heaters back then. Jeff: Yeah, yeah, it’s alright. Morgan: Fire. Jeff: Yeah, it’s okay. Oliver: You got some talent with the words, there— Morgan: [Laughs.] Oliver: —with the bards. Jeff: Might want to do something with that someday.
oliver
Yeah, um. I mean, fifteen years later, do you still think it’s true? What else comes close, if anything?
jeff chang
Absolutely. I mean—you know, I think it was this thing of, like, finally feeling like, “oh man, I’m not the only kid in the world that—” There’s only three of us in this theater that are under the age of seventeen. Uh, the other ones are probably three, four times that. [Laughs.]
morgan
Sure.
jeff
And at the same time, we felt connected suddenly to this big thing. We’re not just this little pond, we’re actually in this huge ocean.
oliver
Yeah.
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About the show
Hosted by Oliver Wang and Morgan Rhodes, every episode of Heat Rocks invites a special guest to talk about a heat rock – a hot album, a scorching record. These are in-depth conversations about the albums that shape our lives.
Our guests include musicians, writers, and scholars and though we don’t exclusively focus on any one genre, expect to hear about albums from the worlds of soul, hip-hop, funk, jazz, Latin, and more.
New episodes every Thursday on Apple Podcasts or whatever you get your podcasts.
Subscribe to our website updates for exclusive bonus content (including extra interview segments, mini-episodes, etc.)
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