Transcript
biz
This is Biz. I’m a part-time working mom with two full-blown kids.
theresa
And I’m Theresa. I have a family business, two young kids, and a toddler.
biz
This is a show about life after giving life. Don’t listen with your kids, because there will be swears. This is One Bad Mother.
music
“Summon the Rawk” by Kevin MacLeod. An intense rock-and-roll song.
biz
This week on One Bad Mother: “If only I could be in a minor accident”. Plus, Biz fakes social media; Theresa discovers that at the end of the tunnel, there’s more tunnel; and we talk to Nidhi Chanani about her debut graphic novel, Pashmina.
biz & theresa
[Enthusiastically, together] WOOOOO!
biz
[Singing] Ahhhhh! Hello, Theresa!
theresa
[Laughs] Hello. [Theresa says “Mm-hm” and “yeah” emphatically over Biz’s next sentences.]
biz
[Cracks up.] Before we get going, quick thing: at the end—like, tomorrow basically, two—uh—two days from the day this show airs—so this comes out on Thursday— September 12th is when this show will be out; and two days later, we will be in Boston. September 14th. With the lovely Liz Sower of “Ghost in the Burbs.” I cannot wait. [Through laughter.] I can’t wait. [Theresa laughs boisterously.] I can’t wait to come. I want to be there now. For like a week.
theresa
7 p.m. at City Space on Saturday, September 14th. You can get your tickets at OneBadMotherPodcast.com. Click on the “Live Shows” link. It will take you to your tickets.
biz
[Singsong] To paradise!!! [Theresa laughs.] That’s where I will take you. Theresa?
theresa
Yes.
biz
How are you?
crosstalk
Theresa: Oh. I’ve… [Biz laughs quietly.] Theresa: [Noncommital noises] Veh… bleh… Biz: [more forcefully] Bleh! Theresa: Neh. Biz: [Nonsense sounds] Mlalmlalt!
theresa
Yeah. [Biz laughs] Um… Yeah. I’m—I’m fine. I—things are fine. I am just… [sighs] [Biz laughs again. Biz agrees with Theresa emphatically several times over Theresa’s next sentences.] Catching—like my brain needs to catch up to school year mornings? It’s tough. Like I—because my family is so, like, my kids kinda need that structured schedule anyway, I was sort of lulled into feeling like things weren’t that different in the summer— [Biz guffaws.] Theresa: —because, like, we still kind of have the same morning routine as far as, like, who gets—you know— Like, getting ready and all that. But… it’s really different. I mean… Grace—Grace gets picked up at 6:55—
biz
Sss… ai-yi-yi!
theresa
—on school mornings. So… I know. And then… you know, and then as Oscar we have to leave by, like, 7:… 25? To get Oscar to school, and then Curtis is after that. It’s just—it’s—it’s going fine, it—uh—actually, amazingly. And you know what? I should have prefaced this by saying: I’m amazing!
biz
Yeah! You’re great!
theresa
I’m doing great!
biz
Yeah, you are! [Biz continues agreeing with Theresa as Theresa continues talking.]
theresa
You know? We’re a couple weeks into the school year and, like… we’re doing it, you know? And it’s so hard! But like what—[breaks off, laughing]. What I’m—I guess grappling with— [Biz laughs.] —is the idea that this is, like, every day for the next nine months?
biz
Yeah.
theresa
You know? Like… just the…after, like—I can do it for, like, a morning. Like Monday morning, I’m like, ready—
biz
We’re ready to go!
theresa
We get everything ready the night before. [Biz laughs.] We’re ready to go. It’s like this big thing, this big hustle, and then the next day we have to do it again. And by, like, three days in, I’m tired. I mean, I’m tired generally; but, like, that…like, crunch of getting everybody where they need to be, and then getting everyone back and all that stuff and all the different things they need with them and blah blah blah. And like none of it is routine yet, like eventually it will be, but it’s not yet? It’s so much. It’s so much!
biz
And it’s—
theresa
I’m so tired.
biz
And it’s not like it’s relaxing.
theresa
No! [Theresa agrees emphatically with Biz over Biz’s next sentences.]
biz
It’s, like, a crisis every morning. It’s like—it’s like level crisis energy every morning. Because it’s… you’ve got to be like, up and ready to go, and get them going—
crosstalk
Theresa: Just like, very alert. Biz: Yeah, you have to be— Theresa: Like, even if I’m not freaking out. Like, even if I’m doing good, I just have to be on it. Biz: Sure! Right! No, it’s like— Theresa: Like, on it. Biz: —getting to the airport with all your kids. Theresa: Yes! It is exactly like that. [Theresa agrees with Biz multiple times over Biz’s next sentence.]
biz
It is—that’s what I—that’s—[ through laughter] that’s the level of crisis.
crosstalk
Biz: We’re like, Code Yellow at this point in time. Theresa: Yeah. Code Yellow. [Theresa continues agreeing with Biz as Biz speaks.]
biz
It’s like trying to get to the airport where you have to kind of stay positive; you know what I mean, it’s just a lot of energy you’re pulling? And you have to do that every day. Yes. That’s…yeah, it is. Let’s all—
theresa
It feels like—
biz
—think about our mornings together. [Both burst into laughter.] Thanks for shining—is that the light that’s at the end of the tunnel, the one that shines on the monotony of parenting? God.
theresa
Yeah.
biz
Thanks.
theresa
How… are you?
biz
[Laughs.] So… I am alright. [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.] [Dismissively] I don’t… whatever. Everything’s—
crosstalk
Theresa: Uh, I beg to differ. You do matter. Biz: Okay. Theresa: How you’re doing matters. Biz: It matters. Theresa: I’m asking how you are. [Theresa says “yeah” and “mm-hm” multiple times as Biz speaks.]
biz
Tired. Uh… constantly trying to figure out my new purpose in life as my children get older; trying to find a balance between… jobs and duties at home and with the family. The family role, and the Biz role. So that’s always going on in the background. So I go—I was doing the check-in, on the phone, and you know how on Facebook it’s like, [goofy voice] “Do you remember this? Do you remember this from five years ago?” [Breaks off, laughing.] [Stifling laughter.] “Six years ago?” And… it is definitely before Ellis was born, so Katy Belle—I—we had clearly just moved out here. We’d maybe been here a couple of months, and we are doing a hike, and we’re stomping around this hiking area, and she goes, “What…is…that?” And, clearly, some teens or somebody— [breaks off, laughing] The night before—it was like a full pentagram. Like— [breaks off laughing]. Like, you know, made out of like, spray paint? Like, white spray paint; clearly there’d been some fun teen “Summoning the Devil” ritual or whatever happening that night. And [laughs] so Katy Belle goes towards it and I’m like, “Oh God. Don’t break the lines.” You know, that could possibly release something. But it— [Theresa laughs.]
biz
—apparently, what I said to her when she asked what it was— [laughs] was—“Oop! Somebody did some camping!”— [Theresa cracks up.] “And that—[breaks off, laughing wildly]—campsite, we shouldn’t mess with somebody’s campsite, in case they’re planning to come back—"
theresa
Amazing.
biz
“—or a hellmouth opens.” Yeah, so that… was really… Thanks, social media, for—‘cause I don’t think I ever printed that picture out! [Laughs.] I’m like, I gotta go back, see if I can find that bad boy.
crosstalk
Theresa: Yeah. Biz: Save that for the thank-you page of the back of the yearbooks, you know, like— Theresa: You could compile a whole journal. [Theresa responds affirmatively several times through Biz’s next sentences.]
biz
Biz: I should—you know how, like, people get yearbooks and there’s, like, the year they’re graduating parents can buy a page or—or an ad, and it’s got pictures, and it’s like— “We love you”, “Good job”. I clearly think… pentagram picture. I now have a goal [stifling laughter] throughout the rest of Katy Belle’s high school—school career. To save! Pictures like that! To put in there! [Theresa laughs as Biz cracks up.] It sounds like we both need a break, though.
theresa
Yeah, I think so.
biz
I think so. Which ties in nicely to what we’re going to talk about today, which is—if only I could be in a minor accident! [Cackles.]
music
[Banjo music strums cheerfully in background.]
theresa
Please…take a moment to remember—if you’re friends of the hosts of the One Bad Mother, you should assume that when we talk about other moms, we’re talking about you.
biz
If you are married to the hosts of One Bad Mother, we definitely are talking about you.
theresa
Nothing we say constitutes professional parenting advice.
biz
Biz and Theresa’s children are brilliant, lovely, and exceedingly extraordinary.
theresa
Nothing said on this podcast about them implies otherwise. [Banjo fades out.]
biz
Theresa?
theresa
Yes. [Theresa says “mm-hm” several times as Biz speaks.]
biz
Today we’re going to tackle something that…I… honestly think has gone through the mind of every parent. At some point. And that is…you are so tired. You are so done. The light is never at the end of the tunnel. And you think, “I just need a break.” And like, a real, everything-gets-shut-off break. The only way I’m gonna get that…is to maybe get hit by a car. [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.] Or a truck. Or like, some—maybe—some way to get injured—not severely, but enough where maybe you have to be in the hospital for a week. [Guffaws.] And…this is… so. Fucked. Up.
theresa
It is. [She continues to say “mm-hm” and “yeah” several times as Biz continues.]
biz
And I don’t even think I thought it was that fucked up in the early days of having this thought. With real littles. But as we have worked on this show to really identify the fact that we are a Self and we deserve breaks? The fact that I would still even, like, have this thought is screwed up. I mean, you’ve had this moment, right? Am I crazy?
crosstalk
Theresa: I’ve had a version of this—of this moment. Biz: It doesn’t have to be—yeah. There are many versions. [Biz responds encouragingly several times as Theresa continues to speak.]
theresa
But—I—I wanna acknowledge, like, a slight difference, which is… that for me… I have been, as a parent, throughout most of parenthood— [Biz chuckles.] —so deluded into thinking that I am the only person who can care for my kids? That the idea of something happening to me, even for a couple of days, that would make me unable to care for them? Is really terrifying. Like the idea that I would even get, like, a stomach illness? Which I—has happened? The—I—when that happens, or when I’m really out of commission, it… truly scares me and makes me think, like, well, there’s no— like, nobody—how will we ever get through this? Like, I—I’m—and it’s—that—it’s—it’s a similar thing, but it’s all—it’s the same kind of fucked-up thing, which is this idea that… there’s no village. It’s just me, and I’m the only one who can do this. My partner can’t do it, my parents can’t do it, my friends can’t step in, my siblings can’t step in; there’s really just me, and it has to be me.
biz
Wow. This is…good stuff. There is—you’re—you’ve got a—we’re just ripping the onion right open! [Theresa laughs, then responds affirmatively several times as Biz continues to speak.] Right away! And I—which is great! Because I think that…I think that’s the unsaid… sort of, narrative behind the “I wish I could.” You know—and—like—I mean—it’s not just “get hit by a truck.” I think when our darkest moments—we’re like [in confiding tone] “if I could just break a leg”. You know, it’s “break a leg.” Break an arm.
crosstalk
Theresa: Yeah. Or if I did, there’d be—I would have to take a break. And then I wouldn’t have to decide. Biz: Have to—yeah! And, you know, getting really sick. Getting really— Theresa: Yeah! [Theresa responds affirmatively as Biz speaks.]
biz
Because all of this is…I think there are two main things going on here. One is that, which I had not acknowledged or thought about. But that ties in, this notion of “if anything happens, no one can do this but me.” And I think, tied into that is—that is why I can’t ask for a break. Because, the whole point of this, the whole reason this is so fucked up is that we feel we cannot ask for the break that we really need which, it sounds like, is one to three days, completely free of the parenting responsibilities.
theresa
Right. [She continues to respond affirmatively several times as Biz speaks.]
biz
Right? A real reset. We can’t ask for that. So…we’re too scared to ask for that or feel we aren’t worth asking for that, or that no one will give it to us; so we have to eliminate the choices of others by… getting hurt or getting sick. And what’s really fucked up about that is—Theresa and I both have had situations in which we were out for, like, minor surgeries, or… you know. Anything. And it wasn’t a break! It’s never a break!
crosstalk
Thersea: It’s not a break! You’re—the reason—yeah! Biz: Yeah! You’re— Theresa: The reason you’re out of commission is ‘cause you’re out of commission! Biz: Yeah! Because you’re— Theresa: You’re healing! Biz: Yeah! [Theresa responds affirmatively as Biz speaks.]
biz
You’re in pain. And when I was recovering from a couple of surgeries over the last couple years, my kids always still come in. They always still come in. There’s always, like, I’m doped out on different, you know, pain medications, you know. You can’t eat. You can’t enjoy anything; and… for lots of us, when Monday rolls around… that’s it! We still have to figure things out! We’re still in charge of figuring out how people are getting to school. We are—
crosstalk
Theresa: Even if we’re not driving, we have to figure it out. Biz: Even if we’re not driving—yeah. We have to— Theresa: Yeah. [Theresa continues to agree emphatically several times as Biz speaks.]
biz
—figure out, ‘cause, you know, maybe it’s us who knows the friends who can maybe do the carpooling or the pickup. Right? Like— [breaks off, laughing.] Yeah! We—I mean, like, that’s still a lot of work. You still have to, like—are there groceries in the house? It—it still ties back to the—well, then only person who can do this is me. Right? And… those are two really fucked up things happening there! Like, narratives. I can’t ask for help or a break, and that is because no one can do it but me.
theresa
Yeah.
biz
Huh. [Biz responds affirmatively and sympathetically as Theresa speaks.]
theresa
So… I think there are, for me, there are two… evil— _[breaks off, laughing]—things that go hand-in-hand that create this dynamic. One is, still—if I’m being honest, struggling with that I have worth as a human outside of serving others. [Laughs.]_ That I, like, that all my self-worth comes from being a wife and a mother. And other things to other people, but, like, that all my worth is tied to other people and the things I do for other people. Not just who I am or what I do for myself. And then, the other piece of it is, this idea that things have to be perfect for my kids all the time? And…I…don’t say that with… judgment or contempt because…I think there are…actual reasons that I try to make things perfect for my kids all the time! And when I say I try to make things perfect for my kids all the time, that doesn’t mean that…I don’t ever… allow them to be bored or unhappy; but I try to control the times that they are bored or unhappy.
theresa
Like—I try to, like, make their life what I need it to be. And…so—and also, as part of that, like, because my kids have varying levels of needs, if something isn’t perfect in my definition of perfect for one of my kids and things go crazy, that is very stressful to me whether I’m there or not. Again, probably because of my worth being tied to my children and, like, their happiness and what I do—you know—the kind of life that I help provide for them. Or whatever. I mean, no wonder we have anxiety? Because we’re trying to control everything all the time, you know what I mean?
theresa
And, so, if I were to…choose to step away, it’s like…choosing to not have things be perfect on my terms of, like, what is perfect. You know, it’s like, when I am, like, giving instructions to somebody who’s taking care of my kids, there’s this part of me that’s, like, “You could just not say all this stuff?” [Biz cracks up.] “And this person will just do whatever they would do in that situation”? And the kids would figure, like—figure it out. [Biz laughs again.] But, like, that—so then, that’s a decision I have to make! Because I’m, like, well I know that this isn’t gonna go well. Like, I wanna help them succeed. I wanna help this go well. But then I’m also, like, really though? Like—that—that takes a toll! Like, being in charge of all of that when you’re not even there and you’re not even the person—like—
biz
Yup—well it goes to that question of “Who is this list for”, right?
theresa
Right! [Theresa continues responding affirmatively as Biz continues.]
biz
Is it so that you can go out and enjoy yourself because you feel like you’ve given all the things that you would do? And this person has said, “Yes, I’m gonna do all these things”; and you’re, like, “Ahh. I can now go out and relax!” Right? Like—
crosstalk
Theresa: Is that actually better, though? Biz: No! Theresa: Than like— Biz: I don’t think—I—who knows. Theresa: Yeah. Biz: I mean—I don’t know. Theresa: Yeah. Yeah. [Theresa agrees emphatically several times as Biz speaks.]
biz
You know, I’m a big proponent of… whatever helps you get out, or whatever helps you sleep, or whatever—whatever it is that you need to do. That is…fascinating. And again, it’s the narrative that we don’t look at. Because we’re so expected to just naturally absorb it. Right? Like, we’re so naturally supposed to be, obviously, our—who we are is caregiver. Right? And I think that goes hand-in-hand with the “I have to make things perfect.” Because if they’re perfect and no one’s yelling and no one’s screaming, that means I’ve done a good job—that’s validation that I am a good caregiver. And—if things are going crazy, I’m gonna get fired. But then I can finally write that novel— [Theresa laughs.] [Through laughter] —and go on a backpacking trip through, you know, The Himalayas. But…yeah. That is so interesting. Because I—for me, my mind goes to the “I want to get hit,” you know stopped, or, you know, put outta [through laughter] put outta commission so that I don’t have to think about…all those details. Like, it needs to be so strong that—
crosstalk
Theresa: Yeah. You need to be taken out of the picture. Biz: Taken out of the picture! Theresa: Yeah. You—like—it’s—‘cause it’s the emotional labor, right? Biz: Like, yeah! Right! It’s definitely— [Biz cuts herself off, then says “yeah” affirmatively several times as Theresa speaks.]
theresa
Like, the—the planning and the being present and everything—you have to be so gone that you can’t…
biz
Allow yourself to go there.
crosstalk
Theresa: Yeah! And— Biz: Like— Theresa: You can’t be—and nobody would bother to be, like, “Well do you think we should—” Biz: Yeah! Yeah! Theresa: Yeah. Biz: [Deep voice] “Don’t bother your mother.” Theresa: Yeah! Biz: Right? Like— [laughs] Theresa: Yeah! Biz: Yeah! Theresa: Yeah. [Theresa continues to respond affirmatively as Biz talks.]
biz
It is so… and so much of this talk—like, I’m listening to you talk about that… feeling, and I think…it always goes back to the, you know, I…[laughs]. I spent the first three-to-five years of their lives doing stuff for them! Because they were uncape—like—incapable of doing! And…so that’s a—that makes you feel really important! Whether you want to be doing the work or not, you—
theresa
You’re needed. [Theresa says “yeah” and “mm-hm” several times as Biz speaks.]
biz
You are needed. And…that, I think, feeds into the “What is my worth if I’m not taking care of them?” And…it’s—I mean, it’s the same thing that, like, you know when I go through with like, Katy Belle, she’s really…you know, ten—not eight—that’s my new thing I have to remember. She’s ten! Not eight. And she’s starting to push boundaries and explore and do things—I wanna still micromanage all the things. You know? Like—why aren’t you looking at these clothes as we go out, right? [Laughs.] “You can go and look at anything you want, find something you like.” Five minutes in, I’m like, “What about this? What about that?” And it’s because…like, I try to forgive myself, and I tell her, “Hey, look, I—for a really long time, I was in charge of some of this stuff. And I—is a hard habit to break. But—
theresa
And by the way, the fact that you’re doing that now, is like, really great— [Biz laughs.] —considering, I think, like, a lot— [breaks off, laughing] [Biz giggles.]
crosstalk
Theresa: —a lot of parents still feel the need to dress their kids into their teens. Biz: I do still feel the need! I still feel it. I just— Theresa: I know, I’m just saying, like, not everybody would be self-aware about trying to step back from that. Biz: Guys, my magical gift is horrible, paralyzing self-awareness. Theresa: Okay. [Biz laughs wildly.] Theresa: Me, too. [Theresa agrees emphatically several times as Biz speaks.]
biz
So, like, even though my big struggle is… not wanting my worth to be Mother/Wife, right, like, I’m like constantly searching for a different worth out there? That like, identifies me? That doesn’t eliminate that same thing of “no one can do this but me”. It’s just an excuse to not go out and pursue the worth. Right? When can I take the break. You know? And so… [Pause.] Oh, what?
theresa
No, I just—
biz
[Accusatorily] She just had a look of self-discovery! [Biz agrees emphatically with Theresa several times as she speaks.]
theresa
I—did! I did! Because… okay. Think about it this way: if we go away for a trip. All of the, like, deciding that we’re gonna do that—like—as—like, if we want an actual break and we wanna leave our family for the weekend or something, just us.
crosstalk
[Overlapping] Theresa: Like—like we’re about to do this weekend— Biz: —like we’re about to do this weekend. [Biz continues agreeing emphatically as Theresa continues.]
theresa
—okay. But say, like we’re—we’re not hurt, we’re just deciding, “I need a break.” It’s not for work, it’s not for anything. It’s just—I need a break, I’m gonna take some time to myself. Number one, we have to get to that point. We have to ask for that, and we have to do all of the planning around ourselves being gone. To make sure everything is covered, all the stuff we’re missing, blah blah blah blah blah. So…it doesn’t really change anything about our… like, what’s on our plate? And it doesn’t change anything about our self-worth being tied to… making sure everybody is cared for. It’s just—we’re not the ones actually there physically with them. Versus, like, when you’re hurt, like… it’s different from saying, like, “I wish I didn’t have kids for a week because you still get the love? Like, you still get to be yourself, be a person, have your kids love you, be a mom to—like, you’re still the mom. You still have this family that loves you; you just can’t think about any of the, like, stuff you’re normally supposed to be thinking about! So it’s like—it’s—it’s not even, just—‘cause, I think when we originally first started talking about this topic, in my mind it was mostly, like, the idea that we can’t bring ourselves to take—
biz
Take a break. [She continues agreeing as Theresa speaks.]
theresa
—to decide to take a break. We somehow don’t think we deserve a break; and that’s why we’re not doing it. But I actually think it’s this other thing more, which is that—a break doesn’t always feel like a break if you’re in charge of arranging everything in order to take the break. But, if you’re hurt— [breaks off, laughing]
crosstalk
Biz: Yeah, but if— [breaks off, laughing] Theresa: —and you’re gone—and you’re just suddenly gone— Biz: Yeah! Theresa: You can’t—you—you get the break without— Biz: Yeah. Everybody else— Theresa: —you get an actual break. You get a—a “President of Everything” break. Biz: Yeah, because everybody has to jump into Emergency Mode to make it work. Theresa: Right. Right. Biz: And that is, if you have a partner. [Laughs.] Or family nearby, or a friend, right. Theresa: Or just another person who’s—who’s— [Theresa cuts off, then begins agreeing emphatically as Biz speaks.]
biz
Because, see, for me, even…in the recovery phase—like, even, like, when it’s like the day after a surgery and I’m out. There’s no… I still—by, like, day two? I’m like [drugged voice] “Thank you. I’m so sorry that I can’t—” You know? And “you’re doing so good and [nonsense sounds]—" You know? I can’t even enjoy resting—I mean, it’s taken me multiple surgeries on my mouth over the years. So, like, why did it take me the last—you know, the last few to be, like, “You’re good! I’m not gonna think about it!’ “I’m really gonna sit here, I’m gonna take the extra day that I always usually get up, and then feel like shit—I’m gonna really take it and stay in it. You know? I—‘cause again, it ties back to that guilt of… [Self-sacrificing voice] ”You shouldn’t have to do all this horrible shitty work that I just do for free every day—” [breaks off, laughing]. [Theresa guffaws, continues laughing through next several lines.]
biz
Alright. I just want to end on this. Let’s pretend we don’t have all these other issues— [breaks off, cackling]. And we are in the moment of the, “Okay, I—I need a break.” Like, what are thoughts? On, like, what would be a good scenario that would give you the break time— [Theresa chuckles.] —as well as the mental freedom, right? Like I—I will say—I don’t want to break anything. Okay? I don’t want anything broken.
crosstalk
Theresa: Yeah. I need my feet for running. Biz: I don’t really wanna—Yeah. Theresa: Like, I don’t want anything to come back and— Biz: Yeah. I don’t wanna be, like, in a hospital. [Laughs.] That’s not— Theresa: Oh, you don’t wanna be in a hospital? Biz: That’s not fun! Theresa: ‘Cause I was gonna say, like— Biz: A hospital? Theresa: —appendicitis? Biz: Oh! Interesting!
crosstalk
Theresa: But I—I already had my appendix taken out. But like— Biz: Yeah. Can’t do it now! Theresa: That was like—I can’t do it again. [Laughs] [Biz laughs through next several lines] Theresa: Unless I try to trick someone into— Biz: Oh no! Theresa: “I think it must be, so maybe you should check.” Biz: Check it! Theresa: Maybe there’s a piece of it still in there. Biz: It’s just floatin’ around in there.
crosstalk
Theresa: Like I feel like that was pretty good. But I guess it’s probably pretty dangerous to have any surgery? Biz: Yeah. Yeah. I know, because, like, I am sure— [Theresa laughs through next several lines] Biz: ‘Cause again—as a person who’s had multiple surgeries—it’s not fun— Theresa: No! Biz: You know? Like— Theresa: But none of these things are fun! Biz: None of these things are fun. Theresa: Like, you could break an arm; but if you break an arm, you know you’re back in the kitchen the next day— Biz: —next day, just figuring out how to cook with one arm.
theresa
Yeah!
biz
“I can still hug you with this arm!”
theresa
Yeah!
biz
Oh, that’s why this is so fucked up!
theresa
It’s really fucked up. [Theresa says “yeah” several times over Biz’s next sentence.]
biz
‘Cause there’s no good way to take yourself out of the game other than asking, and that’s [voice drops]…terrifying.
theresa
Yeah. Or telling.
crosstalk
Biz: Or telling. Asking or telling. What’s better? Getting hit by a truck— Theresa: I guess— Biz: Asking for a break, or telling somebody you are going to take a break? We’ll find out! [Both laugh loudly.]
music
Electric guitar + drum with a steady beat. After a moment the music fades out and is replaced by folksy acoustic guitar music that continues through dialogue.
biz
One Bad Mother is brought to you in part by Casper. Casper’s new hybrid mattresses combine the pressure relief of their award-winning foam with durable, yet gentle, [trills] sprrrrings!
theresa
[Sighs delightedly] This new innovation offers the best of both worlds: luxurious comfort and resilient support! You guys…I sleep on a Casper mattress. It is extremely comfortable. This is a very nice mattress. It comes to your house in a giant box. You open the box, and [through laughter] the mattress sort of… just, like… expands— [Biz laughs.] —around you! Uh, make sure you’re in the room you want the mattress to be in— [Biz screeches with laughter.] —when you [through laughter] open that box! [Both laugh.]
biz
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theresa
Hey, you know what it’s time for! This week’s genius and fails! This is the part of the show where we share our genius moment of the week, as well as our failures, and feel better about ourselves by hearing yours! You can share some of your own by calling 206-350-9485. That’s 206-350-9485.
biz
Genius/fail time, Theresa. Genius me.
clip
[Dramatic music swells as pre-recorded lines from Biz and Theresa play. Their voices overlap as they read the following dialogue.] Theresa: Wow! Biz: Oh, my god! Theresa: Oh, my god! Biz: I saw what you did— Theresa: Oh, my god! Biz: —I’m paying attention! Theresa: Wow! Biz: You, mom, are a genius. Oh, my god, that’s fucking genius!
theresa
So…Gracie, my third-grader, normally takes school transportation home from school; but she had an appointment coming up that I needed to pick her up for, and I had forgotten to remind her that morning? [Biz begins responding emphatically and continues several more times as Theresa speaks.] And I was like, this is going to be terrible. Because she’s not going to go to the right place for me to meet her after school, and she’s going to be all disoriented that I’m there to pick her up and she’s not gonna want to go to the appointment and blah blah blah blah blah. And…so…it—I’m like—how do I, like tell her about this? It’s not, like, so important that I should, like, call the school and have her like—have them like send a message to her, just, like, reminding her that I’m, like, picking her up from school? It’s like—so I was like, what should I do? And then I remembered— [breaks off, laughing] [Biz laughs.] —that we have a shared Google Photos folder? And so I—I wrote a post-it note saying “Gracie! Hi! Remember that I’m picking you up at three to go to blah-blah-blah!”; and then I took a picture of it, and then I shared it to our shared Google Photos, and she saw it at school! It sent her an alert and she saw it while she was at school—at her school they’re allowed to bring tablets. So she saw it and she got the message— [Biz gives an impressed gasp.] —and she “hearted” it so that I knew that she had—
crosstalk
Biz: —she’d gotten it? Theresa: —seen it, and…it was just a little genius moment! Biz: Wow! Good job! Theresa: Yeah. Biz: That is an excellent job. Theresa: Thank you. [Theresa responds emphatically as Biz speaks.]
biz
My kids like to trade things and usually…it works out horribly. Definitely one of those things I’ve been, like, hands-off about. I’m like, “You sure? You sure you wanna trade that?” [Laughs.] You know. And sometimes—
crosstalk
Theresa: Between the two of them, or—yeah. Biz: —Yeah! Between the two of them. Theresa: Okay. [Theresa says “yeah” emphatically multiple times as Biz continues.]
biz
So like, all of these beautiful polished rocks for, you know, the sticky pad. Like, somebody’s always not getting a good deal? Sometimes they are; but recently, they were trying to trade two things that I thought, “[disgusted noise] Ugh. There is no way that by the end of the day, they’re going to be happy with this trade. There’s just no way.” So I said—they’re like [high voice] “We’re gonna trade this! We’re both happy!” [Laughs.] You know what—[high voice] “Yeah, we are! We’re both so happy!” [Normal voice] And I said, “Alright. I’m just gonna lay out a new trade rule, and that is… any trades that are done have a 24-hour rule.” So if by 6:00—like, if it was, y’know, in the afternoon—so by six PM tomorrow night, you guys have to check in and see if you still are okay with the trade. And if either of you are not, you have to trade back. Even if you are happy with your trade, but the other isn’t? You’ve gotta trade back. Do you under—without complaining! Do we all agree? Yes!
crosstalk
Biz: And it’s actually worked out really well! Theresa: That’s genius! That’s so genius. I’m totally gonna use that. Biz: It’s so—I’m so happy, ‘cause it’s 24 hours when somebody suddenly realizes they’re missing that stuffed animal or that toy. Theresa: Yeah! Yeah, it’s fair! Yeah, it’s great! Biz: Yeah! Whoo! Theresa: Yeah. Biz: Hot dog! Theresa: Especially for kids with impulse control issues? Biz: Yeah! [Laughs.] Exactly! Theresa: That are, like, always up for making a trade, and then—like, they’re gonna have buyer’s remorse moments later? Biz: Yeah. Yup. Oh, yeah. Theresa: So good! Biz: I know. I love it.
caller
[Machine beeping.] Hi, One Bad Mother. This is a genius. So…tonight is Friday, and that means that my leftie is at work on his overnight shift. And I didn’t want to stay home with my ten-month-old baby by myself! So, we went on a walkabout at our local shopping area and decided that we wanted tacos. So I took her to the little tiny taco spot that’s super hipster by myself, and they had no high chairs; but we sat and we ate tacos and I had a margarita [Someone laughs gently.] And she did great, and I did great, and I’m so proud of us! So…sometimes, it’s good to just try it! And see what happens! Because I wasn’t sure how it was gonna go. But it was fine. And we had a wonderful time. You’re doing a great job! And so am I. Bye!
biz
I love this?
theresa
Yeah. I love it, too. [Theresa agrees emphatically several times as Biz talks.]
biz
Because I—when I—when Katy Belle was like, you know, able to sit in a high chair or whatever? You know, we were still trapped inside so much—and—I—there—we had a, you know, we had a [through laughter] Mexican place around the corner as well! And I took her out one afternoon! I was like, we can do this. You know. I can go have food. I don’t have to eat, you know, this same shit in the house. This granola bar or whatever. And I had a margarita and she ate an avocado, and I was just, like, yeah! It was nice! I felt like… a person. And I—so…good job! You can mix it up!
theresa
You can.
biz
Yeah! [Biz agrees emphatically several times as Theresa speaks.]
theresa
It’s okay. And like, it’s nice to remember that like… the worst that can happen is—you’re like, okay, this isn’t going that great. We’ll—we’ll go. Like, you can just… put money down and leave. It’s like—you know—like—
crosstalk
Biz: Take the margarita with you. Theresa: Yeah! [Laughs.] Right. Biz: Yeah. Just slowly [laughs] back out of the restaurant with the margarita. You’re doing a great job. Theresa: Yeah. [Laughs.] Good job.
biz
Failures.
clip
[Tense, dramatic music plays as pre-recorded words play.] Theresa: Fail! Fail! Fail! Fail! Fail! [The music cuts out with a twang.] Biz: You suck!
biz
Fail me, Theresa. [Biz responds affirmatively several times as Theresa speaks, including repeating what she says a few times.]
theresa
So…I…found, in my car, an invitation to a birthday party for one of Curtis’s friends from preschool. And it was last weekend. Like, I’d never saw it come into my car. I don’t know how it got in my car? Maybe somebody used my car to—maybe Jesse used my car to pick Curtis up one day and left it in the car? Or maybe the teachers just handed it to me with some other stuff and I was like, I’ll look at this later? And…so I never RSVP’d, I never—nothing. Just nothing. And we—we missed the birthday party.
biz
Wow.
theresa
Yeah!
biz
The universe fucking hates you.
theresa
I know! [Biz laughs.] So sad.
crosstalk
Biz: Uh—that’s awful. Theresa: Yeah. Biz: I’m sorry. Theresa: I know. Biz: Especially given your birthday history. Theresa: I know! Biz: I know. This is [exasperated noise]. Theresa: I really suck at birthdays [Theresa responds affirmatively as Biz speaks.]
biz
I—we really—[breaks off laughing]. Okay. So…Ellis has started kindergarten, and something that his kindergarten class does is—do this weekly outing. And it’s really nice and they all walk to a, you know, place down the road for more school stuff. But it’s all fun. Very nice. And I have been telling him all about it all summer and how exciting it is, and how I can definitely come with him on this weekly walkabout trip thing that they do. And he’s excited. I’m excited. And the first day of school comes and they announce when their timeslot is to do this every week? And it’s Monday at 10:15. Which is when, uh, we’re normally getting ready to record here—
crosstalk
Theresa: Yeah! Biz: —very far away from— Theresa: Like, half an hour away— Biz: Yeah! Half an hour away! Theresa: —really, at this time of day— Biz: There’s no, like— Theresa: —it’s like half an hour. Yeah, there’s no— Biz: —I can sneak in a little here or there— Theresa: —there’s literally no way. Biz: —there’s no way! Theresa: Yeah. [Theresa responds affirmatively with “yeah” and “that sucks” repeatedly as Biz speaks.]
biz
And I was like—wow! Wow. I now have to be, like, I’m almost never coming with you [breaks off, laughing]—on this walkabout thing! Sorry! It really sucks! It really… [laughs]. It’s like [laughs exaggeratedly].
theresa
[Through laughter] So sorry.
biz
I know. [Frustrated noise.]
caller
[Machine beeping.] Hi! I’m calling with a fail. This is my kid’s first week of preschool and he seemed really tired so I thought I would put him to bed 15 minutes early tonight? And it is now 45 minutes after his bedtime and he’s still awake! So…that’s a first. Anyway [sighs] wish me luck. Bye.
biz
Good luck!
theresa
Yeah. Good luck. [Theresa responds affirmatively and emphatically as Biz speaks, including repeating her words at a few points.]
biz
Yeah—it just falls into, like, all the insanity around bedtimes. And I get the theory. I get the idea. This comes from all the people who are constantly giving sleeping advice, and it just filters into our brain so we think oh! A little early. It’ll be great. Or a little later—it’ll be great. Nope! Our children—
crosstalk
Theresa: Or maybe it’ll be great one day and not the next. Biz: Yeah! Yeah. And not the next! Theresa: Or maybe it’ll be not great today, but if you did it tomorrow— Biz: That’s right. Theresa: —or two days from now it would work.
biz
Yeah! Yeah! Which way is the egg gonna roll off the counter?
music
“Mom Song” by Adira Amram starts playing softly in the background. Mellow, wistful piano music.
biz
This way, or this way? Well, you’re doing a horrible job for sure! The kid’s never graduating high school now. [Theresa laughs.] [Biz cackles.] Sorry!
music
[“Mom Song” increases in volume] You are the greatest mom I’ve ever known I love you, I love you When I have a problem, I call you on the phone I love you, I love you… [Music fades out.] Light jazz piano music fades in, continues through dialogue.
theresa
One Bad Mother is supported in part by Michelin Tires.
biz
Vroom Vroom! Let’s talk about tires! It’s back-to-school time, guys. Who’s ready for car line? Or maybe it’s not back-to-school time. Who’s ready for daycare? Or maybe it’s not that either. Who’s ready to have to just go to doctor’s appointments and grocery stores? [Theresa laughs.] In a never-ending cycle. With all that driving, we’ve all had the experience of having to slam. On. Our. Brakes. And stop fast. And we wanna do that safe. Because we actually love all the people in our car. [Laughs.]
theresa
[Through laughter] When worn Michelin Premier All-Season Tires come to a complete stop, some other worn tires are still traveling at over 15 miles per hour. So next time, when you’re looking for new tires for the family car, consider Michelin Premier All-Season Tires. Michelin: Performance Every Time. [Jazz piano fades out.]
biz
Hey, Theresa! Let’s call someone today!
music
Cheerful acoustic guitar with choral “aah”s. Music plays for a few seconds, then fades out.
biz
This week, we are talking to Nidhi Chanani, who is a freelance illustrator, cartoonist, and writer. Her debut graphic novel, Pashmina, was released by First Second Books in the fall of 2017. It received starred reviewed in the School Library Journal, Publisher’s Weekly, and was reviewed in the New York Times. In March of 2019, the film adaptation of Pashmina with Netflix was announced! [Excitedly] Whaaa! [Laughs.] I love it so much. She’s currently working on her second original graphic novel, Jukebox, with her husband Nick Giordano, which is slated for 2021 release. She is an instructor in the Master of Fine Arts, Comics program at the California College of Arts. Welcome, Nidhi!
nidhi
Thank you! Thanks for having me!
biz
We—we are so happy to have you! Before we get into the graphic novel, I want to ask you what we ask all our guests, which is—who lives in your house?
nidhi
So it’s me; my husband, Nick Giordano; and my four-year-old daughter!
biz
OoOoh! How’s it going? [Laughs uproariously.]
nidhi
Umm…, well, we’re on week two of back to school, and we’re still crying.
biz
Yeah!
theresa
[Sympathetically] Ughh.
nidhi
It’s rough.
biz
[Sympathetically] Uhh.
nidhi
It’s—it’s not. It’s not easy—
theresa
Pre-K? [Both Theresa and Biz interject “yeah” periodically while Nidhi speaks.]
nidhi
Transition is—Yeah. Yeah. Second year pre-k, so we thought, you know, second year would be easier! Totally—I think part of what’s hard for it? Hard for me—is that I assumed it would be easier. [Laughs.] And so now everything is breaking that assumption and I didn’t want it to go—I want my assumption to be true? [Biz laughs uproariously.] [Through laughter] I just want it—I really just want it to be easier. But it’s not gonna be. Yeah.
biz
Huh, maybe! Maybe.
crosstalk
Theresa: At some point. Biz: At some point. Theresa: Probably. Biz: Sure. [Nidhi laughs.] Biz: Yeah.
nidhi
The husband is—the husband is confident that by the end of this week it’ll be easier, and I’m like—I don’t think so.
biz
That sounds like a…something you should put money on.
theresa
Yeah! Yeah! [Biz and Theresa burst into laughter.]
crosstalk
Nidhi: Yeah. [Laughs.] You know—I think that’s a really great idea. Biz: Yeah! Theresa: It’s actually a good idea. Nidhi: Gotta bring some fun into it. Biz: Yeah! Theresa: Yeah.
biz
I was—[through laughter] I’ve been joking recently with my husband Stefan—that I wanted to start an Instagram feed that’s just a picture of me, posing in some way that say—and underneath it it would say—“I was right”— [Theresa and Nidhi laugh.] —and you’d have to guess—you’d have to guess, like, what I was right about this time. That, yeah—actually, we are Terminal B. Not Terminal A at the airport. [Theresa bursts out laughing. Nidhi chuckles, continues for several seconds.] Actually, the drop-off is at 8:15, not 8:30. Like—it’s dumb stuff. Like, nope, the milk is expired. Like—you have to just guess— [breaks off, laughing] [Biz and Nidhi respond affirmatively and emphatically as Theresa speaks.]
theresa
I also—I really like this with respect to kids going to school? Because it’s such an unknown. Like, we have—I—I have a kindergartener this year who’s two weeks into—or two-and-a-half weeks into Kindergarten, and it was almost like the opposite thing. Like, we were, like— [Biz cracks up.] —we were, like, “Oh, this is gonna be so hard” and he was happy to go, like, the first, like, seven days or something? And my sister, who used to be a kindergarten teacher, was like, “Well, just keep in mind that like, one of these mornings he’s not gonna want to go. Like—be ready for that.” [Through laughter] And it’s like, the same—I’m like, which day is it gonna be? [Nidhi laughs as Biz laughs wildly.] Like, when are we gonna have the day where he’s like, crying into someone? ‘Cause I know that’s coming. Like, this morning, he said he didn’t want to go for the first time and I’m like, okay, is this gonna be it? [Biz laughs.] But then it was like—it’s like—
biz
I like the idea of just being, like, nope! That day is never going to come! [Theresa and Nidhi laughs. Biz cackles.] [Theresa and Biz respond emphatically and affirmatively as Nidhi speaks.]
nidhi
Let’s manifest that. Just, like, putting it out there, even though it’s inevitable that they’re gonna—I think it’s that—it’s that tipping point of “Oh, I have to go here every day.”
crosstalk
Biz: Oh my gosh, this is what we were talking about at the very top of the show. Nidhi: Right? Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Theresa: Yeah. Yes. Yes. Biz and Theresa: Every day— Biz: —requires the energy that you have to put out for the prep and the setup and the getting and the loving and the whatever you have to do. And—yeah. It’s just never-ending. Nidhi: Yay. [Theresa bursts out laughing.]
biz
Yay! On that note [breaks off, laughing]. [Through laughter] Let’s— [Nidhi laughs.] —let’s talk about something more fun! [Laughs.] Your debut graphic novel, Pashmina. First, what I wanted—I want to have you start by just giving us, like, the quick narrative breakdown so people can all be on the same page with us as we get going. [Biz responds emphatically as Nidhi speaks.]
nidhi
Yeah! I can give you the elevator pitch. [Through laughter] Pashmina is—is, I have this kind of like, down pat. Although it’s been—it’s been a little bit. You know when you’re in, like, the process of creating something new, your mind is shifted from that thing? I mean it—I spent four years making Pashmina, so… it’s not like I forgot it. But— [Biz laughs.] —Pashmina is a story about Priyanka Das, um, who’s a teenager in South California who finds a magical pashmina, and when she puts it on she’s transported to a fantasy version of India, and learn—and it allows her to learn more about who she is and where she came from.
crosstalk
Biz: Good job. Ding! I’m gonna go— Nidhi: Thanks! Biz: —to the next floor with you. [Everyone laughs.]
biz
Very good. Alright. Let’s start by talking more about this main character, Priyanka. So she’s growing up in the US, she’s raised by a single mom who emigrated from India—
nidhi
Mm-hm.
biz
Can you talk to us about how you developed this character and, you know, is she based on any of your own personal experiences, or the experiences of people you know?
nidhi
So, how I see, at least most of my characters, is the characters are based off people I know and then I do, you know, what I think is—the important character work to make them unique to the story. And so…Priyanka is based off of me, although I didn’t grow up with a single mom. My parents split when I was in high school, and I mean, it was heading that way for a number of years, and so—to a certain extent, there is some of that similarity of, you know, kind of a—one absent parent? Um, and the pressure that the parent that is around feels.
biz
Yeah.
nidhi
And—and so the mom is based off my mom, but also, you know, she didn’t have that situation. She, in fact, had it—very opposite situation than being a single parent, and so—some—you know, and those things are based off of, um, our relationship, too. The relationship between the mother and the daughter. And then the uncle is, like, kind of an amalgamation of all of the uncles in my life? [Laughs.] [Biz laughs.] I had a lot of uncles growing up. We grew up in a really big Indian community in Southern California, so it was just like kind of this, like, revolving door of uncles and aunties, you know, around in our lives. So there was a lot of different people I could draw from. And then her aunt in India who’s based off of my mom’s younger sister. So.
biz, with nidhi
Biz: Yeah. I want to get into color next— Nidhi: Mm-hm. Biz: So, you use color in the graphic novel in a really interesting way. It—it starts off in black and white, and then, once Priyanka finds this magical pashmina? Uh— Nidhi: Mm-hm. Biz: —or silk scarf—you know, anybody who doesn’t know—she wears it, the experiences, her experience is transformed. And there’s—there’s all this color. And so, can you talk to us about the significance of color for you? [Biz interjects emphatically as Nidhi speaks.]
nidhi
So…anybody who’s familiar with my other works—and I—before I did Pashmina, um, been an illustrator for going—over ten years. I lost count at ten. I think I’m just gonna—just keep referring to ten— [Biz laughs.] —even though it’s gonna go into [through laughter] twelve and thirteen. [Laughs.] Uh, there’s only so many numbers I can keep track of. But—so—I had been doing illustrations for a number of years, and everything kind of… pushed me towards wanting to do this in full color. But as I got more and more into reading graphic novels, I started to think about how color can be utilized in a way to layer up the narrative? Things you can’t do with prose alone? And so I really wanted to have that pashmina have that power, and to communicate that power in a way that can really only be done through comics. And so, having the black and white transition to color because of the pashmina, I thought was a really powerful way to communicate, um, how her life felt very average and…simple, and the pashmina brought all this—literally brought all this color. But I think, also, it’s my relationship to—to India? And to my culture? And it—I mean—it—it’s something that I talk about a lot, is that, you know, kind of—a lot of American aesthetic is this love of beige? [Laughs lightly.] You know? And—and this fear! This fear of color! And to have that color really—it—uh—touch her life, had many different, I think meanings. [Nidhi responds in agreement multiple times as Biz speaks.]
biz
So, there are…a couple of threads going throughout this graphic novel. A lot of it, I mean, I hate to use the like, [cheesy voice] “Coming of age” line—because— [Nidhi laughs.] —I think that softens it. ‘Cause—I mean—I really think—you’ve got, you know, this main character, Priyanka. You know, she’s teen-ish. And we’ve got, you know, her relationship with her mom and her desire to know more about India and her mom’s, uh, hesitancy to let her know anything about India. You also have the uncle who, sort of, is her—it’s her special uncle. Right? And—and—he’s about to have a baby! And, you know, there’s this really powerful scene where, you know, she’s praying and… she’s, like, “Don’t take my uncle away from me”. Right? Like—and the whole idea of, “I hope they don’t have this baby.” Right? And—which is a big deal, as well as—later, when she actually gets to go to India, discovering that everything that she thought it was gonna be, it wasn’t. You know? I mean, it’s a lot of the sort of, selfishness—and I don’t mean that in a bad way, and sort of…narratives that I think we tell ourselves when we’re young, and having to face those and realize we were—we were maybe wrong about them. And I—you swim through those threads really—really well. And I—I guess I wanted to talk about…how you chose to—to tackle those. Where—you know, what was the journey you wanted her going on here? [Biz responds emphatically as Nidhi speaks.]
nidhi
I mean, it—basically, you always want your—your character to start off with these, kind of, I guess—not assumptions, but these things that—that are true about them. And then there are situations that present themselves within the story that change them. They come out—hopefully—by the end of the story—most stories have this trajectory of change, right? And development. And I think that, you know, being in a—teens or preteens—that time is specifically a time of getting out of that narcissism. You know, we really—really starting—I mean, we’re hopefully putting [breaks off, laughing]—
biz
Hopefully! [Laughs, continues laughing for several seconds.]
nidhi
—[through laughter] who knows—those seeds into our young kids now, um, of like a stepping out of yourself and seeing what, uh, somebody else’s perspective is. But, I do think that—that time, that kind of, early adolescence, is, is the time where that’s really taking hold? And…it—I think that—I had to set up a certain amount of challenges and—and, um, realizations for Priyanka, for her to take that step and say “I’m gonna go to India on my own—"
biz
Yeah.
nidhi
“—I’m gonna see what this is all about. I’m gonna push for this, I’m gonna advocate for myself, and I’m gonna find the answers to my questions. Even though that might just give me more questions?” But—but through that questioning, what’s happening is really that she’s not just understanding herself, she’s understanding all of the people around her. You know?
biz
Yeah! No, it’s so good; and what I really like about it is that even though this is her specific story, you know, in terms of India and in terms of … wanting to do this trip on her own, and the relationship with the uncle—this overall theme of having to step outside yourself is so incredibly relatable. I was very happy to put this in my daughter’s hands. [Laughs uproariously.] [Nidhi laughs appreciatively.]
crosstalk
Nidhi: That’s great! Biz: I was like, like, well—because I watch her starting to struggle with these things. You know? And— Nidhi: Mm-hm. Biz: —it’s… such a… you know, I’ve always thought that, like, books, graphic novels, all of it is such a great way to learn about empathy and learn about—that you’re not alone in so many of the thoughts that you’re having? You know… it—it— Nidhi: Right! Biz: Yeah! It—it’s so nice. You also incorporate Hindi words in the graphic novel. And you have a glossary at the end, though…I—it was pretty easy to get the meaning [through laughter] of almost anything. Nidhi: Good! I’m glad! Biz: Yeah. But— Nidhi: [Through laughter] I took some classes.
biz
[Laughs.] You know, can you talk about the choice of—of making sure that that was part of it—outside of it clearly going with [laughs] the family. And—but yeah. [Biz and Theresa respond affirmatively and emphatically as Nidhi speaks.]
nidhi
So it’s interesting because… in the initial manuscript and development, I never—I had never wanted to asterisk my words, and I never had a conversation with my editor. He never asked me to clarify them. But! Right before publication, they suggested that I put together a glossary. Just for people who… maybe wouldn’t look it up on the internet, and didn’t want to—and I think, now, kind of, you know, um, fast-forwarding through my career and understanding what they were saying—initially I kind of pushed back? And that glossary is not comprehensive? I just—I put—I picked out the words that I felt like really would potentially take you out of the narrative? And so I realized, too, that they were asking me to do some things in order to keep people in the book. Right? Because it’s true—people could google anything. Right? And it comes up through the book in terms of Hindi word and find the translation. But really, do I want somebody to be doing that in tandem reading the book? Not really. And so…I left, um, some of the words I didn’t translate because I felt like there was enough material there for—to get figured out. But the words I felt like, were, uh, maybe needed a little more clarification, I did include in the glossary. And so, I do think that that was a really good choice, um, to bring more people in, and instead of just assuming—and also, I think—I think my initial feeling was that only Indian-American people would read this book. [Through laughter] Which was also, at the beginning of my career, and like being super-scared of putting something like this out there and wondering, “Who will read this? Oh well, my community will read this. Nobody else will read this.” [Laughs.] [Biz laughs.] [Through laughter] And it was my publisher, having the confidence to know that that was not true. [Laughs.] [Biz laughs loudly through next few seconds of dialogue.] [Through laughter] Um, and so—you know, those kinds of—those are kinds of this—the thoughts that go through your head, “Well, I’m—I’m writing to my community,” in a way? But also, if I want to invite other people in, this is something that’s important to do.
biz
I would like to wrap up on talking about the pashmina.
nidhi
Mm-hm!
biz
Which you use as this, just, amazing device to… not only empower her, but really, women—I mean, the history of it is…this empowerment for women. Can you…talk a little bit about the pashmina? And how you use it in the story?
nidhi
Yeah, so the pashmina—I mean, without giving anything away—
biz
Yeah! Without giving away too much stuff. [Laughs.] [Biz says “yeah!” emphatically several times as Nidhi speaks.]
nidhi
Um, [laughs] yeah. I mean, the pashmina is basically—the—it’s—I would say it’s the symbol. You know? Of the symbol…um…it’s something that is a vehicle for women to understand that they have choice and they have power in their own lives. It’s also kind of a… a doorway. Into having those conversations. Having those conversations with younger, a younger audience which is, you know, the—the—um, market for the book. And to really open that door, to say, you know, is the idea of women’s choice something that’s the same? In every place? And—how do we talk about that? How do we not only empower each other, but find that within ourselves. And so…the pashmina is really just this—this opening. Of having that conversation. And that conversation leading to you questioning your—your own agency. Within your world and your life. And how, in order to free ourselves, and to feel free, um, and—and to embrace feminism, you know? At—at—it starts with understanding that we can choose those things. You know? We have a voice, we have a choice. And that’s not necessarily true for every situation. I know that I come from a very Western perspective, having grown up here. But there’s a certain amount of…even within less powerful positions, there is a choice. There is a way, hopefully, that you can see that within your life’s path. That you can choose to maybe leave behind some of the things that are holding you back. [Nidhi responds affirmatively several times as Biz speaks with “mm-hm” and “yep”.]
biz
Yeah, I—I will have to say, when she goes to India and she’s staying with her aunt, um, the—her mother’s sister—I—there are a couple of moments there where I was like, you—you really got to see a different dynamic of the role of…women, and the children that she has to care for, and her, you know, husband, who’s like, “You can’t go there.” [Laughs.] She—and yet she goes! And I’m like [nervous voice] “Wuuh! What’s gonna happen?!” Like [breaks off, laughing] look, you can feel the shift, and the significance that it isn’t the same everywhere, which I thought was—but you know, it just—it—exactly like you just said, it’s a great opening to that discussion, you know, with the reader. Thank you so much for joining us, and for this lovely, impactful graphic novel. I—I just…I could not like it more. [Nidhi laughs lightly.] And Katy Belle—my daughter, and I, both were like, tossing it back and forth from our beside, you know? Beside reading piles. Um—
nidhi
[Laughs.] That’s wonderful.
biz
Yeah! Oh, and it’s in my library. My local library. I’m like, “There is it!” [Laughs excitedly.]
nidhi
Yay, that’s awesome!
biz
I do—
nidhi
That’s wonderful.
biz
I do love it. Thank you so much, Nidhi, for joining us and coming on. We’re gonna link everybody up to all the ways they can follow you and see more of your illustrations; and we’re really looking forward to Jukebox when that comes out. And! The Netflix—
nidhi
Yes!
biz
—movie of Pashmina! Thank you so much.
nidhi
Yeah, me too.
music
“Telephone” by Beehive Sessions begins to fade in, playing quietly under the dialogue. Mellow, up-tempo, electric instruments. When you, I call…
nidhi
Yes, definitely! Thank you so much!
biz
Yeah. Bye-bye!
theresa
Bye!
nidhi
Bye!
music
[The song swells louder as the vocals begin.] Brain waves send a message: “Pick up the phone” (When you, I call) Arm is moving now, no longer stone (When you, I call) Hand reaches out with a will of its own (When you, I call)… [Song fades out.]
promo
[Wolf howls. Dramatic piano and organ music. Throughout, the wolf howls again, and a crow caws.] April Wolfe: Hello there, ghouls and gals. It is I, April Wolfe. I'm here to take you through the twisty, scary, heart-pounding world of genre cinema on the exhilarating program known as Switchblade Sisters. [Sinister echo on the title.] The concept is simple: I invite a female filmmaker on each week, and we discuss their favorite genre film. Listen in closely to hear past guests, like The Babadook director Jennifer Kent, Winter's Bone director Debra Granik, and so many others every Thursday on MaximumFun.org. Tune in! If you dare... [Thunder booms, something growls over April as she cackles evilly, and then all sound abruptly cuts.] April: [Rapidly] It's actually a very thought-provoking show that deeply explores the craft and philosophy behind the filmmaking process while also examining film through the lens of the female gaze. So, like, you should listen. [Same sinister echo effect] Switchblade Sisters!
music
[Straightforward, thump-y electric bass guitar beat with light drums.] Laurie: Hi. I am Laurie Kilmartin. Jackie: And I’m Jackie Kashian. Laurie: Together we host a podcast called: Jackie: The Jackie and Laurie Show. Jackie: Uh, we’re both stand-up comics. We recently met each other because women weren’t allowed to work together, uh—uh, on the road or in gigs for a long, long time, and so…our friendship has been unfolding on this podcast for a couple years. Laurie: Jackie constantly works the road; I write for Conan and then I work the road in-between. Jackie: We do a lot of stand-up comedy, and so we celebrate stand-up— Laurie: Yes. Jackie: —and we also…bitch about it. Laurie: We keep it to an hour; we don’t have any guests. Jackie: We somehow find enough to—to talk about every single week. So find us—-you can subscribe to the Jackie and Laurie show at MaximumFun.org, or wherever you get your podcasts. Laurie: [nonplussed] K, bye. [Music ends.]
crosstalk
Biz: Yayyy! Theresa: Yayyy! Biz: [Singing] Graphic novels, empowering kids!— Theresa: I was like— Biz: [Still singing] —and adults! [Laughs.] Theresa: I—sorry to interrupt you. I was sneakily ordering— Biz: [Speaking] The book? Theresa: —the book. Biz: Yeah. Good. Theresa: While you were talking. [Laughs.] Biz: Good! It’s great! Theresa: [Stifling laughter] Yeah.
biz
Guys, it’s a really great graphic novel, it tells this beautiful story, it is so—it like, so touches on so many of those, like, [quiet, self-mockingly mawkish] sort of sensitive places we will all wind up one day with our children as they get older. [Regular voice.] And I really related to the adults as well in the book. I—just, like, the struggles that they were having on how to navigate this preteen/teen daughter. It was wonderful. Again, Pashmina. You know what’s also wonderful and often touches [breaks off, laughing] on the very important things we’re all going through? That would be a mom having a breakdown. Let’s listen to a mom have a breakdown.
caller
[Answering machine beeping.] Hi, this is a rant. [Through frustrated tears] I’m just so fucking tired of caring what my kids eat, and if they pee in the fucking potty instead of a damn diaper. I work really, really hard trying to get my three-year-old to eat anything other than fucking chicken nuggets and French fries, or yogurt—which is great, but—I just—any—anything I try to spend time on cooking, and even, like, hiding vegetables or whatever, he just takes one look at it and runs away and tells me— [Someone laughs quietly in the background.] —he’s not going to even try it. It’s just so fucking frustrating! [Biz giggles.] My husband doesn’t give a shit that I do anything like this; he just thinks I’m wasting my time, but how else am I supposed to try to get my kid— [Biz laughs unabashedly.] —to eat something that’s not from—a processed freezer bag? And I know he’ll eat eventually, but— [Biz cracks up anew.] —I can’t let him starve! So it ends up happen—you know, he eats the same freakin’ thing every morning, but I’m just so tired of being tired. [Through sobs] Not—not getting any appreciation from anyone. And I know it’s silly, and everyone has this problem, but I knew y’all were the people to call— [Both hosts laugh.] —so, thank you. I’m just having a rough morning. [Biz laughs uproariously. Theresa laughs quietly.] Thanks! You’re doing a great job. And, sometimes, so am I.
crosstalk
Biz: [Stifling laughter] Okay. You’re doing a great job all the time— Theresa: Yeah, you are. Biz: Also, yeah, tough morning! Theresa: Yeah! Biz: Yeah! Tough all the time! Theresa: Yes. Biz: I…I love you. Theresa: I love you so much. Biz: I…understand and relate to everything you just said. Theresa: Mm-hm. Yep. [Sighs heavily.]
crosstalk
Biz: And we can fill “food” in with fucking anything. Theresa: Yeah. Lots of other things. Biz: Looots of other things. Theresa: You mentioned the pee in the potty versus the diaper. That’s a whole other area that we could’ve explored. Biz: Yeah! Yeah! Oh! We could’ve explored that deeply! We could go into, like, making sure that they’re doing the homework every day! [Theresa says “yeah”, “mm-hm”, and “uh-huh” emphatically as Biz speaks.]
biz
Or about the fucking fingernails, guys! No one cares that you’re cutting your child’s fingernails until your child accidentally mars the face of another child when they were trying to high-five them. Up until that point, no one cares. And it—it is— [Laughs.] She’s like, “My husband doesn’t give a shit.” Not about that, probably. I know that feeling. That feeling of, like, I—because it’s really not about if your partner gives a shit or not? It’s about…us, in our role of feeling like…we are the only one who’s managing this? That, like, this is—
crosstalk
Theresa: And nobody sees the importance of the work that you’re doing and how hard you’re working, everything you’re doing. Yeah. Biz: Yeah. Yeah! And it is important. I mean— Theresa: It’s so important and you’re doing such a good job. Biz: Yeah, you really are. Food is sooo fucked up. Theresa: It is. Biz: And—FYI—every morning, Ellis eats an Eggo waffle. Theresa: Yeah. Biz: ‘Kay? It—every morning right now. Every morning. And for dinner— [Biz cuts off, then says “yeah” a few times as Theresa speaks.]
theresa
Grace eats sugar cereal as a bribe to get her ready for school. Every morning—every school morning, she gets very sugary cereal. Because it’s a bribe. To get her ready for school. [Theresa says “yeah” several times as Biz speaks.]
biz
Almost every night at dinner, when I know Ellis isn’t gonna eat anything that I’m making, and I’ve gave up on that a long time ago, sometimes he gets dinosaur oatmeal. And I don’t mean…”sometimes” like “once a month,” I mean—we’re lookin’ at three times a week. Three times a week easily, dinosaur oatmeal. [Biz responds emphatically several times as Theresa speaks.]
theresa
And…all of this—is not to say this doesn’t—so it doesn’t matter that you’re having a hard time; we’re saying: this is a constant struggle, and we’re with you.
crosstalk
Biz: We are with you. You are doing an amazing job. Theresa: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you are! Biz: And I see you! Theresa: Yeah. So do I. Biz: I see you. And it’s important. You’re important. Theresa: Yes. Mm-hm. [Theresa responds emphatically multiple times as Biz speaks.]
biz
Theresa, what did we learn today? We learned that… [sighs] becoming a parent is so, like, insanely fucked. Up. [Theresa bursts out laughing.] Like, I mean it. Like—it’s not like, I feel like I’ve gotten better clarity in the sense of, like, relaxing as a parent? I feel like I’m just getting better clarify on how fucked up it is. And, like, how messed up I have—and like, the part that I’ve played in that? And the part that I continue to play in that? That I let be? Like, it is…insane! I mean, the fact that any of us would ever be like, [foolish voice] “I wish I could be the sick one in the house,” I mean, like, as simple as, like, I wish I had the stomach bug. And I’ve honestly thought about that before because then no-one would wanna be even remotely near me.
biz
Right? Like, they’d—they wouldn’t come near me. But in reality, would anybody disinfect the house so it didn’t spread on? I don’t know. If— [Biz breaks off, laughing quietly.] [Theresa laughs.] —if I throw up in the woods, does anybody hear? [Laughs.] So—again—it’s—it’s screwed up that we honestly feel that the only way to get a break is to take all circumstances out of our control. As opposed to just asking. Or telling, you know, the people in our lives we need the break. And that part of that break is not being in charge of all the planning while we’re gone on the break. And, to be aware of what’s feeding that. Where the world will not keep spinning without me. Right? I am the only one who can do this. And the…other sensation of, you know, I’ve—my—I’m—I’m getting something out of doing it, you know? And I—these are a lot of layers! And there’s nothing wrong with getting something out of doing it, and there’s nothing wrong with being so good at it that it does seem like no one else could do it; and it’s okay to feel like you don’t want your kids to, like, struggle or feel down or—you know, like, I was thinking about you and the whole “perfect.”
biz
You know? I—I want stuff for my kids to be perfect, and it—it’s an easy thing to hear, and to say, and to dismiss as a person saying you know, “well, you’re a total psycho.” Right? You know what I mean? Because… it’s not about the perfect, part of it’s about the—wanting to avoid what I call the “landmines.” Right? Like that, and that’s for you! You know what I mean? And, like, obviously we want our children to be well-adjusted and learn how to, like, handle things; but—we—we shouldn’t dismiss that real feeling of, [laughs] “I just want this to be okay. And I’m gonna put the effort in to trying to make it okay.” [Biz responds emphatically several times as Theresa speaks.]
theresa
Yeah! But I think, also, it is healthy for us to remember that…like, in avoiding having things fall apart, it’s important to remember that—sometimes when things fall apart, we can remember that that’s not something we did wrong. Like, things might fall apart and that might be okay, or just part of life. Like…I have gotten better at letting things fall apart when I’ve [stifling laughter] planned for them to fall apart! And that’s—that’s a step! But it’s not the same as saying, “If things fall apart unexpectedly, it’s my fault.” Or like, internalizing that somehow. Like— [Theresa cuts off, then responds in agreement multiple times as Biz speaks.]
biz
It’s—it’s—it’s why we do the fails. It’s why—because…I think it is really easy for us to all feel like any failure, like any breakdown in the day, is us. It’s the old—
theresa
A reflection of you. [She continues responding affirmatively as Biz speaks.]
biz
—no one’s looking at you when you’re working hard. They’re only looking at you when your kid is screaming, right? Or something’s happening, and—I wish we didn’t feel that way all the time. I mean, you know? I just—wouldn’t that be nice? I don’t know how to fix it; and I don’t know how to not have that feeling, just given the responsibility of taking care of children. And a lot of times it easier—it is easier and… less work, almost, to step into that role of, “I’m the ultimate caregiver.”
theresa
Yeah! “I’ll take care of all of this.” [She continues to respond affirmatively.]
biz
Yeah! While other times it’s easier to step back and be, like, “Enjoy the fall!” Right? Like both—both have value if they’re, like, helping you. I think our main point today was, try to be aware of when it’s not helping. Right? Like, when—when you are actually…limiting yourself from some self-care. From some time that you need…because none of us can run at this pace all the time. It’s…it’s impossible. Well, maybe that’s it. I’ll just keep running at this pace until I break down, and then I can have a break. [Theresa bursts out laughing. Biz joins in.] New math, everybody! Everybody, you’re doing… a really good job. Once again, a topic that I thought was just gonna be a “Ha ha” throw-off reminded me that…we are all walking around with a lot going on under the surface? And to be really mindful of that with each other, and to not dismiss it, or judge it, or think that somebody’s doing it at you. Everybody’s carrying this stuff around and what, to one of us, may seem like not a big deal, like—[critical voice] “Well, obviously, Theresa, you’re not in charge of everything! People could absolutely do that!” That’s not helpful. Because that’s not the feeling experience that you’re having. Right?
biz
And…and if I’m honest, I’m having the exact same feeling experience. And so… [Singsong voice] Be nice…I guess? [Regular voice.] I dunno. Smile and look pretty for me. [Theresa laughs.] [Through laughter] Um…you’re all doing a fucking great job. Theresa?
theresa
Yes.
biz
You are doing such a good job and I am so excited about going to Boston with you and Hannah.
theresa
Oh my gosh. Biz?
biz
Yes.
theresa
Thank you.
biz
Mm-hm.
theresa
You are also doing such a great job, and this weekend is going to be [through laughter] super fun.
biz
I know. I can’t wait. We will talk to you guys next week; and for some of you—that means in Boston! [Laughs.]
biz & theresa
[Together] Byyyyyye!
music
“Mama Blues” by Cornbread Ted and the Butterbeans. Strumming acoustic guitar music with harmonica. I got the lowdown momma blues I got the lowdown momma blues Gots the lowdown momma blues The lowdown momma blues Gots the lowdown momma blues Got the lowdown momma blues You know that’s right.” [Music continues through dialogue.]
biz
We’d like to thank Max Fun; our producer, Hanna Smith; our husbands, Stefan Lawrence and Jesse Thorn; our perfect children who provide us with inspiration to say all these horrible things; and of course you, our listeners. To find out more about the songs you heard on today’s podcast and more about the show, please go to MaximumFun.org/onebadmother. For information about live shows, our book, and press, please check out OneBadMotherPodcast.com.
theresa
One Bad Mother is a member of the Maximum Fun family of podcasts. To support the show, go to MaximumFun.org/donate. [Music continues; fades out.]
music
A cheerful guitar chord.
speaker 1
MaximumFun.org.
speaker 2
Comedy and culture.
speaker 3
Artist owned—
speaker 4
—audience supported.
About the show
One Bad Mother is a comedy podcast hosted by Biz Ellis about motherhood and how unnatural it sometimes is. We aren’t all magical vessels!
Join us every week as we deal with the thrills and embarrassments of motherhood and strive for less judging and more laughing.
Call in your geniuses and fails: 206-350-9485. For booking and guest ideas, please email onebadmother@maximumfun.org. To keep up with One Bad Mother on social media, follow @onebadmothers on Twitter and Instagram.
Get in touch with the show
onebadmother@maximumfun.org
@OneBadMothers
@onebadmothers
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