Transcript
biz ellis
This is Biz. I’m a part-time working mom with two full-blown kids.
theresa thorn
And I’m Theresa. I have a family business, two young kids, and a toddler.
biz
This is a show about life after giving life. Don’t listen with your kids, ‘cause there will be swears. This… is One Bad Mother.
music
“Summoning the Rawk” by Kevin MacLeod. Driving electric guitar and heavy drums. [Continues through dialogue.]
biz
This week on One Bad Mother: is the internet my village? Plus, Biz is all abuzz, Theresa looks back, and we talk to Katherine Goldstein about working mothers.
crosstalk
Biz and Theresa: [cheering] Wooooo!
biz
[High-pitched singing] Ba da ba ba, ba baa! Ting! [Regular voice] How are you, Theresa?
theresa
My back hurts. [Biz makes disappointed noise.] Um, outside of— [Biz laughs.] [Through laughter] —outside of the back pain, I’m doing okay! I am in the midst of trying to sort out an interesting phenomenon. [Biz makes intrigued noise.]
biz
Is it… spooky? [Theresa and Biz both laugh.]
theresa
Yes.
biz
Sure. [Biz and Theresa continue laughing. Biz occasionally interjects to agree with Theresa as Theresa speaks.]
theresa
So…many of you who have been listening to the show for a while may remember that a few years ago I had a genius moment where I got myself—at the recommendation of a friend—a five-year diary. Which is basically, like, a—a diary that has, like, space for a little bit—like, a few words, like a sentence, for each day, on top of the year before, on top of the year before, on top of the year before. So you can kind of, like, see the past year all the way up to five years. [Biz giggles.] As you’re filling out this diary! And you just write down, like, a memory or something from each day. And my friend had recommended—do this, because when your kids get older, it’ll be so hard to remember back, like, what it was like! And, like, what kinds of stuff they did and said! And it’s so great for just, like, remembering funny quotes or just like little things they said. So this was a genius moment, and I…I’m up to—I’m almost done with my five-year diary! It was that long ago! Like, I’m on the last year now. I started the last lap, uh, in May! And…I’ve been religious about it! I write in it every night! There’s some—some days where something happens and I go over to it and I fill it out during the day, ‘cause I wanna not forget it? But I’ve—yeah! I’ve been keeping it all along! But something happened, like…I wanna say about two weeks ago, I just didn’t write in it. One night. And I was like, I just don’t wanna do that right now. Like, that was my—in my head. I was just like, I just don’t wanna do that. I don’t want to look at it, I don’t want to write in it.
theresa
[Biz continues affirming Theresa throughout.] And…this has been like building for a while? And, like…so I haven’t written it for the last two weeks. And like, basically…what’s been—what was happening before that was that even though I was writing in it each night, I was not engaging in it in the way that you kind of are like supposed to? Like the idea of it is, you can see—as you’re writing today’s memory, you can see what your kids were doing a year—a year ago! And enjoy that memory. Or a year before that, like two years ago, and think about that memory, and kind of, like, see how much things have changed and how much they’ve grown and blah blah blah. [Deep breath.] This is not the experience that I am having with this diary, you guys! [Biz cracks up.] Like, this is not—and I don’t have that much more to say about—like, I don’t—this is—I’m still in, like, the processing phase with this? Like, I don’t…know why it’s, like, pissing me off so much? [Laughs.] [Biz redoubles her laughter.] [Stifling laughter, badly.] But basically…the—I think—I think it must have something to do with the expectations that I had? When I set out with this diary? Of, like, what it would be like five years in the future to look back on these sweet moments? Whereas, like, my life just looks so different from what I had expected? Five years ago? And I’m still dealing with that? And then, like—[breaks off, laughing, but not with hilarity.] [Biz laughs again.]
theresa
And then, like, the fact that a year ago I was going through something that I will say was traumatic for me? I’m not trying to exaggerate or be dramatic. I experienced trauma in my, like, experience dealing with Grace having so much trouble at school a year ago. And I’m still trying to get over that. And when I look back at the notes that I wrote, it’s like…[Through slight laughter] I was like, going back—I was like, “Oh, Theresa.” [Laughs.] [Biz erupts into laughter.] [Through laughter.] Like, looking back on myself, like, “Oh, Theresa.” Like, I—like, ‘cause some days would be, like, “Today was really hard.” Period. Or like, “I’m really sad.” Period. But then other—but—but looking back on that is not necessarily—
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] [Through wild laughter] ‘Cause—all I can think of is like, mine would look like, “Sad.” “Sad.” [Theresa laughs.] “Frustrated.” “Yelled at the washing machine.” Right?! Like, that’s—but that seems like a more authentic like—I appreciate looking back and it’s not, like, yeah! That’s not what you expected. [Laughs enthusiastically.]
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] But like—right! That’s not what I expected to look back on and be, like, “Wow. Great. I’m glad I get to, like, relive that,” or, like, think about that again. But also, the ones that—yes! Are worse! Are the ones where I wrote, like, “So-and-so said this and they did such a good job!” or the “This was so good!” or “They tried!” or “They—” y’know, this cute quote. And I’m like, reading it, and I’m like, I remember exactly how I was feeling when I wrote that. And like, it was not a happy time. Like, even though I was, like, trying to find the good? I was, like, suffering.
crosstalk
Biz: Book of lies! [Laughs.] Theresa: I really was.
theresa
I was a mess.
biz
I know!
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] So—but—it’s not all that, either? It’s not—all of it is just fucked up. And I wish I, like, didn’t have a record of it. You know what I mean? Like—[breaks off, laughing.] [Biz cackles wildly.] But then, because it goes back five years, there’s also like, four years ago when like Grace was using a different name! And like—I’m referring to my “boys” and, like, there’s just weird—it’s just, there’s so much in this thing? And I’m just done with it! Like, I don’t even—I think I just won’t finish it?
biz
You should throw it away! [Laughs.]
theresa
I don’t know if I wanna do that? But…
crosstalk
Biz: Yeah. It’s there! Theresa: Like, it’s—yeah! It’s tough.
biz
[Sighs.] That’s hard.
theresa
Yeah!
biz
Yeah. That—[breaks off, laughing.] [Theresa bursts into laughter.]
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] I’m almost done! That’s what’s mystifying about it to me. I think it’s that now that I’m almost done, I’m seeing that it hasn’t become the thing that I wanted it to become? And like, somehow, I really stuck it out because I really thought eventually this will become the thing that I want it to be? And now I’m at this point where I’m like, I can see that that’s never going to happen.
biz
See? Parenting! [Biz and Theresa both laugh wildly.] Whooo!
theresa
How are you, Biz?
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] Ach. I’m alright. I’m just gonna—I’m tired. And…I feel overwhelmed. And…like, the to-do list is never going to be to-do’d. And…so I just thought I will—y’know how you were talking, uh, the other week. And we’ve talked about this before. Big things happen, and then they just go away, because your brain is dead. And you are very tired. I was gonna come in here and talk about—like, this morning I’m like [exhausted voice] “What the fuck happened to this week?” and I was like, eh, I guess I’ll come in and talk about—we showed the kids The Addams Family, the original one, movie. The movie original one. And they liked it, and then they watched 2, and I was like…great. Good story. But then I remembered that we had the bees removed—for the swarm of bees that I mentioned last week. Found somebody to come and he mainly removed the bees and the guy was really nice and very casual and was like, “Oh, yeah.” That—y’know, described what the bees were and what they were doing and blah blah blah. And…he goes up the ladder and he’s trying to remove the—you could tell that it’s not going as smoothly. Basically, when all was said and done, and he comes to my door, and his truck is just being, like, swarmed by bees trying to get back to the queen! He’s like, “Yeah, they were—they were aggressive. And, in fact, I’m glad you called, ‘cause they were Africanized bees.” Those are the, like, bees that—
theresa
That’s like, the—
crosstalk
Biz and Theresa: Killer bees. Theresa: Right. Yeah.
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] They’re the ones that, like, they don’t sting you once, they like—aggressively sting over and over and over? And the only reason they hadn’t been a problem is ‘cause they were so high up? And we weren’t disturbing them? But the moment that—he was like, “You could—you can go back out of the house later.” And Katy Belle and Ellis and I were all looking out the window all night, going “We are not going out there. There are still bees looking for that swarm.”
crosstalk
Theresa: Let’s wait this out. Yeah. Biz: They are not happy.
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] And you can’t wear shoes outside? I mean, you have to wear shoes outside [through laughter] ‘cause all the bees have, like—bees that have died naturally. Are just…everywhere.
theresa
Oh, wow.
biz
So that! That was in my house. Or, outside of my house. So…
theresa
I’m holding a lot of tension in my body.
crosstalk
Biz: Yeah! I—this was like, are you—yeah! And just like— Theresa: As the result of that story? [Laughs.] So—are you okay?
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] I’m all—I could just, like…alright. Might as well! Might as well be killer bees. Might as well be killer bees. Which of course— [Theresa laughs.] —sent me down, like, a total rabbit hole on the internet about what kind of bees we had. Which I think ties in nicely to what we’re gonna talk about today, which is: is the internet my village?
music
Banjo strums; cheerful banjo music continues through dialogue.
theresa
Please—take a moment to remember: If you’re friends of the hosts of One Bad Mother, you should assume that when we talk about other moms, we’re talking about you.
biz
If you are married to the host of One Bad Mother, we definitely are talking about you.
theresa
Nothing we say constitutes professional parenting advice.
biz
Biz and Theresa’s children are brilliant, lovely, and exceedingly extraordinary.
theresa
Nothing said on this podcast about them implies otherwise. [Banjo music fades out.]
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] Theresa. The internet. A place to turn; a shoulder— [Theresa giggles; continues giggling through Biz’s dialogue.] —to cry on. [Laughs lightly.] When the great questions of life arise—who is that hand that plays Thing in the movie The Addams Family? Right? Like—and I think with parenting, it’s a unique relationship. With the internet. And I guess I wanted to see how we’re using the internet now, this far into parenting. Has it—has it changed? Is it good? Is it bad? Where are we in using the internet and I—I did a quick thing where I was like, look. If you were to look at your history right now, your recent search history, what—
crosstalk
Theresa: Porn. Porn. No, I’m just kidding. Biz: Would—what—porn? Yeah. A lot of porn. [Laughs.]
biz
Porn? “Where the farthest away I can go to get milk.” [Laughs wildly.] [Theresa laughs enthusiastically; continues laughing for a few seconds.] “Milk stores in Iowa.” Um—“Milk stores—” [breaks off, laughing.] Just stores that sell milk. Only.
theresa
“Milk for moms.”
crosstalk
Biz: Uh-huh, milk for moms. Theresa: Who need a vacation.
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] That’s right. It’s an eight-hour drive. Meet you there. I did a quick—actually, I did! I just pulled up and I was like, what’s my history? What’ve I been looking at over the last few weeks? A lot of school stuff. Like, think—like, after-school care. School…volunteer things. Forms that need to be filled out. Going to check on homework stuff that’s online. Y’know. Meals. What can I put in the house now that my children may eat? Can I solve the food problem by looking up recipes, snacks.
crosstalk
Theresa: Recently. You’re looking up—do you—and—okay. Biz: Yeah! I’m still—I am still trying to find food that will give my children protein and calcium because they don’t eat anything like that.
theresa
Right. I understand that.
biz
Yeah.
theresa
But, like—uh, so—are you—is it just the like, “I’m still looking! Someday I might find it!” Or do you—are you regularly, like, trying stuff?
crosstalk
Theresa: That you—that you read on there. Okay. Biz: I’m regularly trying stuff. Yeah.
theresa
So you read—
biz
They come—well, they come from different places.
crosstalk
Theresa: Right! Right. Of course. Yeah. Biz: I wouldn’t say…I read anything useful. I’m like— Theresa: Okay. You’re looking for, like, lists. Of like, high-protein kid foods or high—yeah. Okay. Biz: Yeah. I like—I like a list. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
biz
So that would be, like, what do you—can you—think what yours might look like right now?
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] Yeah. I mean…I think, definitely, the school stuff. I feel like I…as far as just looking stuff up online? I’ve sort of stopped just looking stuff up. Unless it’s, like, medicine dosage or, like, medicine…like, can this conflict with something else. And like, since I’m still—still breastfeeding, guys! [Laughs.] [Biz laughs wildly.]
biz
Woo-hoo!
theresa
Yeah! I’m gonna see how long we can— [breaks off, laughing.]
biz
[Laughs.] Are you researching that too? [Laughs wildly.]
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] [Through laughter] No! No! I don’t need to. I don’t—I don’t…yeah. Like, there are a lot of things I just—well—but like—but like with medicine, sometimes if I’m taking, like, cold medicine or something, I’m like, “Is this something that, like, could maybe dry”—like, it’s not, could it like dry up my supply; I’m not really worried about that at this point? [Biz laughs.] But I—[laughs]—but I am, like, would this, like, poison my child if—you know.
biz
That’s a good one to look up.
theresa
_[_Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] So like, I’ll look up medicines; I’ll look up…like, yeah. Like camps and school stuff. But I think, primarily, I am leaning on…podcasts. Which I still consider the internet. So, I mean, I…and—and also, like, books? But I’m listening online? Like, I’m listening on Audible or whatever. So I feel like it’s all…kind of connected. Like, that’s where I’m getting my information? But it’s less—but it is more—for me, I feel like it is more support. I’m looking—I’m leaning towards the internet for support more. ‘Cause I’m more apt to, like, email a doctor or call our doctor now at this point? ‘Cause I—I don’t like—
biz
Well at this point, yeah.
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] And I don’t like looking stuff up like that online, because I don’t wanna see a picture of it? Like, even if it’s on my own kid and I’m looking at that, I don’t wanna look it up. I just don’t wanna see pictures of stuff.
crosstalk
Theresa: Like skin things, or—yeah! Yeah! Like, I just—[breaks off, laughing.] Biz: Typing in “rash” is never good.
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] Typing in “spider bite”—never good. I can honestly say that I probably have a few worse things I could possibly look up on the internet. And they are almost all medical, with horrific pictures. And I—
theresa
And you can’t really avoid it. Like, even if you don’t do an image search, and if you’re just—
crosstalk
Biz: They pop up! Theresa: It’ll still pop up! Biz: It still pops up! Theresa: You can’t make it stop! Biz: And you’re like, “Augggh!” [Laughs.]
biz
[Screaming] “Aaaah! That’s not what mine has! Aaaah!” [Regular voice] Yeah, okay. Support. So you’re—
crosstalk
Theresa: Yeah, so like, the Facebook groups, y’know— Biz: You tend to go—yeah.
theresa
—and—and like, certain podcasts. I feel like I regularly lean on…for support—and I guess for information, too?
biz
Do you find that it helps?
theresa
Yes.
biz
Does it?
crosstalk
Theresa: Yeah! Otherwise I wouldn’t be doing it! Biz: I mean, yeah! Well—y’know, I don’t know—I mean, you may be, personally, might not be doing it, but like…
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] I think—I definitely, and I’ve talked about it here on the show—that I’ve used the internet—like, I’ve gone on for “support”—going on to groups and stuff and…it’s not actually helping, ‘cause I’m—it’s filling my time in a way that…is…like, more—like, I’ll either read something that’s upsetting, right? Like, or that somebody’s really struggling and then that—I’ll think about that too much. Or I’ll get involved in something and it’s—it’s taking me away from actual activities that might make—bring me a different type of comfort? That I might actually need? Or I’ll go on, like, random search—y’know, like I am a searcher for ideas. With babies and toddlers, I did a lot of “how the hell are we getting through the next three hours?” Like, what are some reasonable activities I can do with, like, paper clips in the—y’know, like, what can I do that will not make me feel like I’m losing my mind. And I still look those things up! That has not changed! Every once in a while, I’m like, y’know. What can Ellis do with Legos that’s—and I—I’m not sure that it’s as beneficial anymore because it’s—I’m really…it reminds me that I’m struggling with “they can actually figure this out on their own now,” or “my kids aren’t those kids.” [Laughs.] Right? Who would enjoy that. Or—lessons learned—that activity will be over in five minutes and it will require the rest of the day to clean it up. Y’know? Like, so…I’m not sure the things that I used to use it for that I still use it for, possibly out of habit? Are still helpful.
theresa
Yeah, I see what you mean.
biz
Right? While—
crosstalk
Theresa: Yeah, it’s, like, part of your routine, but it’s not—yeah. Biz: Yeah, part of my routine, but it’s not helpful.
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] Versus, y’know, I think Facebook group stuff is actually—can actually be really helpful at times, if I’m good at…narrowing down what I’m going on there to ask for or to find.
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] So that’s really interesting, because I think the more I hear you talking about it, the more I think—I should be more clear about how I’m using those groups. Because I think—I don’t almost ever post in the groups? I—I’m part of a couple of groups for parents of trans kids, and a—and a few other groups that apply to my life as a parent? That apply to things my kids are going through or whatever? And I think the part that I find most helpful is just, like, knowing that people are there? I know that seems…really…but it really means a lot to me? Like, I go there and I kind of browse posts or I like posts or just offer, like, support, or I’m—or nothing! Sometimes I’m just quiet? But like…reading what others are going through is very, like, when it’s something that I’m going through something similar? It’s just really validating and comforting, and I just feel like that’s—
biz
It’s like comfort porn. [Laughs wildly.]
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] It’s totally comfort porn! Yeah! It’s just—yeah. It’s like, it’s—it’s like, okay, I’m not alone, and just knowing those people are there if I did have something to ask about.
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] Yeah! You could ask. There’s a safe place for you to do it. Y’know, I—in that same vein, there are lots—y’know, I—I’ve gotten added, requested to be added to lots of groups that may not necessarily apply to me, but I’ve used within the One Bad Mother community to look for guests; to, y’know, find out information for topics so that we can be respectful and inclusive and—y’know, go down the right path. [Deep breath.] So occasionally things will pop up that I’m not necessarily looking for, but they’ll pop up and what I actually really like—not just the feeling of not feeling alone—people are going through it—I also really find joy in seeing people do something hard and incredible. Right? Like…where you’re like, “Oh my God, have you been going through that this last year?!” [Theresa laughs lightly.] “And you’ve come out like this?! And you’re okay?! GOD, that’s great!” Y’know, or I’m like, oh, that gets me such hope! Y’know, for all things that—just seeing people be nice to each other. I like that?
theresa
That’s nice, too. Yes.
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] Right? Because a lot of times the internet’s a place to not be very nice. Which I think takes me into, like, another area that…the good side of the internet is that you can find support, and you can find places to feel not alone, and sometimes even…actually good ideas for how to kill five hours in your house with your children, or how to survive your first plane trip with kids. The downside is…there’s this invasiveness to the internet that, like…I now know that there’s a good chance I’m gonna open the New York Times to read something or I’m gonna open up Facebook, and a parenting-related story is going to pop up. And…you guys know if you’ve listened to the show for a long time, you know how I feel about a lot of parenting articles that lead with what I feel is an accusation of my failures as a person. Or—suggests there is no hope! [Laughs wildly.] For my happiness; for my health; for my children—right? For my relationship. And so… if we consider the internet to be a village, I don’t want those people in my village! [Laughs wildly.] So I don’t—
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] But don’t villages always have people who are unhelpful? That you avoid? Even in a village? [Laughs.]
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] So—how you use the internet, how has that changed? Has it changed? Like, for me—again, like I said—a lot of it hasn’t changed. My habits still tend to be the same when it comes to—I am not looking for as much medical. Lessons repeatedly not learned, and then learned again. Yeah! I—has it changed for you, or has it…?
theresa
Yeah, I mean, I think, like, as far as parenting stuff on the internet, like, when I first—when Gracie was a baby, there was just, like, one listserv for my, like, neighborhood kind of thing? That, like, mommas would post to about whatever? And I didn’t—and/or I think I was also using BabyCenter for advice? And there’s forums on there. And I think that…ughhh…I think I just did not—I was not aware yet of the extent of the judging. And the misinformation. And just people flying off the handle about whatever? And grant—like, no blame to anyone, ‘cause every one of us was there feeding the flames of that thing!
biz
Yeah! Oh, enjoyable! [Laughs wildly.]
theresa
Um—yeah. And like, I just—
biz
I love kickball! And I love dodgeball! Right? Like—[breaks off, laughing.]
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] But I think that that must have taken the place in some sense of a real village that could have been better for me? Like my mom. My aunts. My cousins. My sister. Like…and I don’t—I shouldn’t even name just all the female members of my family, but like—y’know, extended family and immediate family members who could have offered support if we were more, like, physically and geographically close and/or just, like, seeing each other every day. But I was resorting to the internet for stuff because everybody was at work and they live far away and I was alone with my baby so I went online. So that—I mean, in that sense, that was my village. Um—
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] Yeah. Well, I think that’s a good point, that like…the notion of the internet being a new form of village makes plenty of sense, given the isolation of parents now. Right? Like, the isolation of parenting and…all the different forms that comes in. And the fact that many aren’t living near family that could offer support. Right? [Laughs.] Some of—some people live near family and that family offers zero support. Y’know what I mean? Like, just ‘cause—so, that’s not the fix-all of all things. But, y’know, or…you have, like for me, I didn’t have any friends who had kids. So, y’know, the internet became that source for me as well. So I don’t know! Is it a good thing? Is it a bad thing? Is it a thing?
theresa
I mean, I’m grateful that it’s there! Because if it—like, I don’t know if it’s like the chicken and the egg thing. Like, if it wasn’t there, would we have found people in life that could’ve maybe done a better job of supporting us? Or, y’know, without the internet, would we have really felt truly alone at times where we really needed to not feel alone. So…
biz
Yeah. Hey, Siri? Is the internet my village? [Siri sound effect plays.] Hey, Siri. Is the internet my village? [Siri sound effect plays.] [Yelling] Siri! Why aren’t you talking to me! [Theresa laughs.] [Still yelling] Answer me, Siri! That—is the internet my village or not?! Also—[breaks off, laughing.] I need directions to the store!
music
“Ones and Zeroes” by “Awesome.” Steady, driving electric guitar with drum and woodwinds. [Music fades out.]
biz
[Chill acoustic guitar plays in background.] One Bad Mother is supported in part by Michelin.
theresa
Fellow parents, that has happened to all of us at some point. You’re driving in the car and the kids are arguing in the backseat. You turn around for a split second to break it up, but when you look back at the road, there’s a car inches away from your front bumper. You slam on the brakes, but it’s scary! You wanna know that your tires will help you stop in time! And that’s where Michelin comes in.
biz
Because stopping safely—consistently—matters. When worn, Michelin Premier All-Season Tires come to a complete stop. Some other worn tires are still traveling over 15 miles per hour. Y’know, really—don’t forget to look at your tires! [Laughs.]
theresa
[Through light laughter] So next time when you’re looking for new tires for the family car, consider Michelin Premier All-Season Tires. Michelin: Performance Every Time. [Guitar music fades out.]
theresa
Hey, you know what it’s time for! This week’s genius and fails! This is the part of the show where we share our genius moment of the week, as well as our failures, and feel better about ourselves by hearing yours. You can share some of your own by calling 206-350-9485. That’s 206-350-9485.
biz
Genius fail time, Theresa. Genius me!
clip
[Dramatic, swelling music in background.] Biz: Wow! Oh my God! Oh my God! I saw what you did! Oh my God! I’m paying attention! Wow! You, mom, are a genius. Oh my God, that’s fucking genius!
theresa
Are you aware of water beads?
crosstalk
Biz: Yeah. I am. Theresa: Okay. Okay.
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] So—somebody recommended these to us, and my kids actually do really enjoy them? Um, and they’re—they’re pretty cool the way they’re reusable? Like, they never go away as long as you kind of take care of them? So we’ve been using them on and off, and then they had been put away for a while. And then last weekend, I was eyeing the old big water table that we’ve had in the backyard for years. I mean, since Gracie was a toddler. And I’ve gone through several phases with this thing of thinking I might get rid of it? Because it just gets really disgusting from sitting outside for a long time? But then every time I go to get rid of it, I’m like, but we could really still use this if I cleaned it. Like, really what I need to do is clean it, and then we could do something with it again, y’know? But then I’m like, well, it’s not—summer’s kind of over. My kids aren’t just gonna, like—they’re old enough that they’re not gonna just, like, splash around with water in the water table anymore? [Biz laughs.] Like, that’s not that exciting anymore? But then I thought of the water beads! And I cleaned the table really quick and then I just filled it with so many water beads. Like, more water beads than—
crosstalk
Biz: You should’ve filled it with—[Laughs.] Theresa: I’ve—we’ve ever done it before.
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] And—so the water beads, for those of you who haven’t used them, they’re just like these teeny tiny little multicolored plastic balls, and they soak up water over a period of, like, four hours and they’re just—it’s like a fun sensory activity. You just—
crosstalk
Biz: Yeah, they bounce; they’re squishy— Theresa: You play with them, they’re squishy—
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] They feel really good to, like, pick up and squeeze? So we just did it in the—in the water table outside in the backyard, and it was like a new thing, ‘cause it was like a new use of the water table; it was a new use of the water beads, and I was able to, like, cover it and leave it there overnight? So we used it kind of all week? ‘Cause we could go visit them and see how they were doing? And they were like, hiding toys in the water beads ‘cause there were so—it was so deep? So it was super fun!
biz
Good job! Very good job.
theresa
Thanks. Thanks.
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] So, Halloween. School haunted house. I have been working on building a very scary tree that will be in our area of the haunted house. And Stefan and I found some different ways to approach the building of the tree. It tends to fall to me to make the tree, because…I have more time during the day. Quote-unquote. [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.] To make a tree. Uh, “You’re home! Make a tree.” So anyway, I started building the tree. The base of the tree. And was figuring out all this really—I was like, oh, look at my brain working! This is a great way to attach this, this is gonna be—solve this problem, this is how I can make it in three parts so that we don’t have to try and figure out how to drag an eight-foot tree to the, y’know, school. All this stuff. Now—fast-forward to…therapy. [Theresa laughs.] And we’re talking— [breaks off, laughing]. We’re talking about some intrusive thoughts. Things aren’t, y’know, great in the world and that can be triggering for some of us who have had previous experiences that are not happy! And…
theresa
Sorry for laughing.
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] I know! But it’s like, “Ugggh.” Of course. Of course! Of course! So—anyway, she says to me, y’know. “Those thoughts you’re having, those are intrusive. They’re concerning something I want us to think about talking about—” I do like my therapist, and a little seed! Do wanna go there. “—is when you feel you have power.” And so she says, “When have you felt like you’ve had power?” Now, I am sure her question was geared towards some other…type of experience? But the first thing that came to my mind was—building that tree. Because I had music; I wasn’t doing anything else. I was only focused on this tree. I was killing it. And—
crosstalk
Theresa: And you knew you would! Like, you knew you would—yeah. Yeah. Biz: I knew I would! Like, I was getting to problem-solve, like—
biz
I do better without instructions when it comes to things like this? Just like, “Oh, do I have that in the garage? Yes I do! Now I’m gonna do this! And that’s gonna work!” And, y’know—wow! This is, like, I feel…
theresa
Capable.
biz
Capable! And powerful! And I like doing this! And so, there you go!
crosstalk
Theresa: That’s great! Biz: I—it’s kind of a weird genius, but there you go. Theresa: No, I love it! I love it. Biz: Yeah, sure.
biz
Yeah! My therapist was like, “…that’s so interesting!” [Theresa laughs.] I was like, “Umm…surprise.”
caller
[Answering machine noise.] Hello One Bad Mother! This is a genius. So I—[breaks off, laughing stiltedly.] [Biz laughs, and continues laughing periodically through the caller’s dialogue.] It’s a very simple and stupid genius, but it is a genius nonetheless. Um, I try to eat healthy. I try to be good. I try to feed my family healthy, and have everyone, I dunno, eat as well as they possibly can. And everybody eats yogurt. And so, with this like, “Oh, we’re healthy people!” In my brain, I—buy plain yogurt, because it’s unsweetened. And my genius is: fuck that shit! It’s gross. Nobody wants to eat fucking plain yogurt! [Biz and Theresa laughing wildly.] It’s just not good! It doesn’t taste good! So I’m—[breaks off, laughing.] I might also be a little bit delusional, or—[sighs.] Not delusional. What’s the word I’m looking for? I don’t—tired. I dunno. Um, yeah. I’m buying sweetened yogurt, and it tastes so much better. And this last time I went to the store and I got maple yogurt and it was delicious and everyone ate a shitload and…that means everyone got protein and that’s great. And I’m happy, and I’m calling it a win. [Stifling laughter] Sweetened yogurt: give it a try! [Giggles.] [Through laughter] Thanks so much; you’re doing a great job, and so am I. Bye!
crosstalk
Biz: Ooooh. Theresa: Wow. Biz: I know!
crosstalk
Theresa: She kind of reminded me of you sometimes? Like— Biz: Yeah! Where I’m just like— Theresa: Like, when you’re just like, yeah! Yes! Biz: Delirious? Theresa: Yes! Yes. Biz: Yeah.
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] Where I am delir—she was looking for the word “delirious,” not “delusional.” Though they go hand-in-hand at times to the average person walking past you, when you’re having a yogurt moment. [Theresa laughs.] But…I—[breaks off, laughing enthusiastically.] I—I love you?
theresa
Yeah.
biz
I love the joy you have found in this…yogurt freedom? You are doing such a good job.
theresa
You are. [Biz giggles.]
biz
Failures.
clip
[Dramatic orchestral music plays in the background.] Theresa: Fail. Fail. Fail. FAIL! [Drum.] Biz: [Calmly] You suck!
biz
Fail me, Theresa!
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] Okay. So…we had one of our dogs, Cocoa, went in for some dental work last week. She’s fine. She made it through okay. But when—on Thursday morning, Jesse was gonna take her in, ‘cause I was taking kids to school, and I said: “Please make sure they call my number. Give them—make sure—I’ve given them my number a lot of times, but for some reason they always call your number,” and Jesse has, like, a Google voice number that sometimes rings the office and sometimes just goes to voice—and he’s not as good about, like, answering? And so…I just said, like, I’m gonna be the one picking her up; I want the updates; I want them to call me. Make sure they have my number and they call me. And he’s like, “Okay. Whatever.” Y’know? Great. [Biz laughs.]
biz
“Calm down.” [Laughs; continues laughing raucously as Theresa continues.]
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] I gave—yeah! It was like, this whole thing. Like, please just tell them again and again. Like…and he’s like, “Okay.” So he takes—he takes Cocoa to the vet; I take the kids to school; blah blah blah. The day is just going on and stretching on and I’m like, how long is this thing gonna—‘cause they had to put her under anesthesia and do a whole thing. And I’m, like, nervous for her and I’m worried about her and she has, like, a heart condition and she’s probably going to be fine, but, like, it’s just nerve-wracking! And I just wanna hear, and so—I’m literally like, carrying my phone around looking at it. Like, waiting for them to call me! And I even check a couple times, like—did I somehow miss it? Whatever. Nothing, nothing, nothing. Then, we’re at a class that Oscar takes, and it’s like, 4:15. And that’s when they call. And I miss the call, because I’m getting him set up in his class. But even when I see that I’ve missed the call, like, two minutes later, I can’t leave because it’s a short class and if Oscar sees me leave, he’s not gonna participate in the class. Like, he’ll just get up and leave or something. Like, I have to stay in there. And so I’m like, “Oh. Wow! Of course they call while I can’t, like, get this message! Whatever.” So she leaves a—the vet leaves this, like, detailed message, thankfully. So I listen to the message and it’s basically like an update and the surgery is still going.
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] And so they’re—they hadn’t, like, started, probably, until later, y’know? And so, I’m like, okay, fine. Well…amazingly, the next time she calls, I also miss the call. And it’s because I’m at home, and I’m doing dinner, and I’m going downstairs to switch laundry. And I’m like, could it possibly—I’m just gonna switch laundry really quick. I didn’t carry my phone with me. Whatever. Miss her call again, and then later Jesse comes home, and I’ve, like, tried calling her back? And I’ve like, missed her—y’know, like, she didn’t—they didn’t bring her to the phone. So Jesse comes home later and he’s like, “Oh, the vet called.” And he, like, gives me the update. And I’m like, “I’ve been try—” and he’s like, “Yeah, she said that she tried you twice and she couldn’t reach you all day.” And I was like— [Biz laughs loudly.] —he said it in a neutral tone, but those were his words. Like, “She tried twice and she couldn’t reach you all day.” And I was just like, I…I—I was so mad. I was, like, really bent out of shape about it. Like—
biz
I would be, too!
theresa
Really. Because, also, Cocoa wasn’t home yet. So I was still, like, feeling anxiety about her being at the vet? And like, not being done—like, not having—not having her home was like, nerve—. So, I was agitated from that, and then I—it was—it was that, like, “bad mom” feeling?
crosstalk
Biz: Yeah! Somehow you’ve done something wrong. Theresa: Like, I was like, I went out of my way to like make sure I was the one that called and then I just never answered.
theresa
She never could reach me. All day.
biz
You were getting your nails done.
theresa
Right! It—it was just so—ughhh! It just made me so—it took me, like, hours to recover from that.
crosstalk
Biz: It would take me a lot longer than that. Theresa: So stupid!
biz
No. Nope. We’re all just carrying that lump of coal around inside of us all the time, ready to catch a fire. [Theresa laughs.] Oooh! I’m so sorry.
theresa
Thanks.
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] So… this week? Been a lot going on, what with the bees and the nature— [Theresa laughs.] —and a school holiday in the middle of the week, and Halloween haunted house-y things, and all sorts of things. So…Friday, I had a number of things I needed to get done. Within a certain timeframe. So I’m out at my first errand, and when I come back to my car, I go to my purse to pull out my keys, and I cannot find them. I don’t have a lot in my giant purse, but I’m like, oh, maybe it’s—maybe it—is it in my pocket? Is it, like…where are my keys? And then I slow-turn to the car, and I look in the window, and there are my keys. Just, like, in the middle of, like, the change thing. The change—and this is the time that I have actually locked my doors! I don’t know why; I don’t usually do it. Now I am locked out of my car; we don’t have a spare key. [Theresa sighs.] Like, my day is now—
theresa
This is your day.
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] This is my day now. It is also yet another unexpected cost for this month. Ain’t cheap. No matter who ya use. And…yeah! This is my…this is my day now! And…I hated it. It was awful. And now I’m on constant, like, “Where are my keys?” alert. There’s picture on Instagram. You may go and enjoy that. Bask in my fails. But I just…
theresa
I’m so sorry.
crosstalk
Biz: It just—sucked! Theresa: It’s so frustrating.
biz
Yeah!
caller
[Answering machine beeps.] Hey, One Bad Mother. I am calling with a fail. Today I brought my baby into the bathroom with me so that I could go to the bathroom, and our toilet is just behind the shower, so there’s just a slight obstruction of view, and she was sitting there playing quietly. She’s eight months, by the way. And then I peek around the corner and she’s got—there’s a kid’s shampoo bottle in her mouth. And now her face is covered in shampoo and I’m pretty sure it’s all in her mouth. So…I’m doing a great job. And so are you. Thanks.
biz
Your child is clean. [Theresa laughs.]
theresa
Inside and out.
biz
Inside and out! You are…outrageous. For— [Theresa laughs.] —going in to use the bathroom. You’ve got a small child in your house.
crosstalk
Theresa: Yeah. You’re not allowed to use the bathroom! Biz: I’m pretty sure—yeah.
theresa
Yeah. Just hold it.
crosstalk
Biz: You gotta hold it— Theresa: For, like, the few years. Biz: Yeah. Few years.
theresa
Until it’s safer.
biz
Yeah. Until it’s safer for you to use the bathroom. I’m sorry. That sucks. Y’know, the good thing about baby shampoo is…it’s…usually nontoxic.
theresa
Yeah. [Biz and Theresa both burst out laughing.]
biz
We’re laughing ‘cause we’ve all done something similar to this!
theresa
Yes.
biz
Well…you’re doing a horrible job. Trying to be a person. In the world. Who…has a body. That needs to…go to the bathroom and expel waste every once in a while. Ugh! Awful. I’m gonna send you some parenting books.
music
“Mom Song” by Adira Amram. Mellow piano music with lyrics You are the greatest mom I’ve ever known. I love you, I love you. When I have a problem, I call you on the phone. I love you, I love you. [Music fades out.]
theresa
[Jazzy piano music begins, continues through dialogue.] One Bad Mother is supported in part by Mathnasium. The way each child learns is unique, especially in subjects like math. With face-to-face instruction, Mathnasium is great for kids who need to get caught up in math—or to help kids who are already advanced, stay ahead.
biz
[Lightly cheering] Woooo! Math! That’s a thing that I’m unable to teach or help my child with. [Theresa chuckles.] Ever. [Laughs.] Katy Belle came home the other day and was like, “We’re doing, uh, fractions and area and—and measurement” and I was like, “Oh. Good!”
theresa
Yeah.
biz
So we had Katy Belle involved in Mathnasium, and it has been…so incredibly helpful. With over a thousand franchise locations worldwide, Mathnasium is the authority on math education for grades 2 through 12.
theresa
More than half a million parents trust Mathnasium to help their kids get caught up or ahead in math. Now it’s your turn. Go to Mathnasium.com/obm today to learn more about their programs. Or call 855-354-MATH. That’s Mathasium.com/obm, or call 855-354-MATH. [Music fades out.]
biz
Hey, Theresa! Let’s call someone today!
music
[Up-tempo acoustic guitar with choral “ahhs” in background.]
biz
Theresa. This week we are calling Katherine Goldstein, who is an award-winning journalist and media entrepreneur. She has been extensively quoted as an expert in issues facing working mothers in The New York Times, Washington Post, The Atlantic, and on WNYC and NPR. She is the creator and host of The Double Shift podcast, which is a reported, narrative podcast about a new generation of working mothers. She runs Double Shift Productions as an independent journalism company out of Durham, North Carolina. Season two of The Double Shift is currently in production and is coming out next month, November 11. Welcome, Katherine! [Laughs.]
katherine goldstein
Thanks so much for having me.
biz
Thank you so much for joining us! Before we get in to, uh, working mothers, I would like to ask, uh, what we ask all our guests, which is: who lives in your house?
katherine
So…I live with my husband, Travis. I have a four-year-old son, Asher, and I have two babies on the way in February.
crosstalk
Biz: Holy guacamole! [Laughs.] Theresa: Oh. [Laughs.]
crosstalk
Katherine: Yep. [Laughs.] Biz: Sorry, we don’t mean to laugh at you. We’re laughing with you. Theresa: We’re laughing with you. Biz: We’re laughing right next to you. Theresa: We’re laughing at the glory of life. Katherine: Good. Biz: Yeah. Life is fun. [Laughs.] Katherine: Good, because if I wasn’t laughing I’d be crying. [Laughs; continues laughing through next several lines of dialogue.] Biz: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Theresa: Yeah. Yeah.
biz
I am sure. You’re also welcome to cry on this podcast! Wouldn’t be the first! We do it all the time. [Laughs wildly.] [Theresa and Katherine both laugh.] Oh, wow! That is very exciting.
crosstalk
Theresa: Congratulations. Yeah. Biz: Congratulations. Yes.
katherine
Thank you.
biz
Alright. Let’s get in to The Double Shift. So in season one of the podcast The Double Shift, you tell a range of stories of working mothers: from mothers running for public office to the 24-hour daycare in Las Vegas to the discrimination that mothers face in the workplace and soooo much more. [Laughs.] I guess I wanna start with…what—what was your goal for this podcast? Besides bashing people over the head, reminding them that, y’know, women are people? [Laughs wildly.] [Theresa laughs quietly.]
katherine
[Biz and Theresa occasionally interject to agree with Katherine.] Yes! Reminding—reminding people that mothers are people was [laughs] was a big impetus for the podcast. Um…well, um, basically, y’know, so I’ve been a journalist for over a decade and I started getting into writing about and covering working mothers, and I really found that so much of the media out there, um, did not treat the experience of being a working mother with any kind of, like, journalistic seriousness or rigor. [Biz laughs.] Um, basically, most of the media aimed at mothers is really, sort of, tips and tricks and sort of aimed at telling us that we need to change? [Laughs.] That—that somehow, like, we need to do things differently? And—and I just felt like, um, y’know, being a working mother in America touches so many important issues, from public policy to economics to gender roles to how we think about the, y’know, the future of our families. It’s actually a—quite a rich topic, and yet very few people were devoting any kind of real journalistic resources. And I wanted to tell really different stories. And I think, unfortunately, there’s a lot that—a lot of the media about working mothers also really centers, um, y’know, a lot of upper-middle-class professional white women, basically. As, like, the default story and experience of working mothers. So part of the first season was telling a really wide range of stories from, y’know, single mothers who go to a 24-hour daycare in Las Vegas to sex workers, to just people that you don’t always think about when we talk about working mothers. And really try to expand the conversation to make it much more exclusive and really share a lot of new ideas and thinking.
biz
Do you have, after, y’know, the—the years of doing this sort of research and—and the podcast, do you have like a theory—[breaks off, laughing.] I’m gonna laugh ‘cause I have a theory. A theory on why we haven’t, like, the media and journalism hasn’t treated this topic with more seriousness?
katherine
[Biz continues to affirm Katherine throughout.] The story of working mothers in America is ultimately a story about power and who doesn’t have power. In America. So I’ve also done a lot of research on media organizations and who rises to the top of media organizations and how media organizations are just now really starting to grapple with having new generations of parents and mothers who want to continue to rise in the ranks. And, y’know, journalism stayed very flat in terms of women’s leadership for many decades. And a lot of that, I think, is attributable to motherhood. So, who has decision-making power does determine who, um, gets, y’know, resources to tell stories and who thinks what stories are important. And I had a—I’ve had a lot of very interesting and—frankly—pretty sexist experiences—
biz
[Biz laughs quietly.] Sorry.
katherine
—in getting The Double Shift made! [Laughs.]
biz
Yeah. Well, I actually want to get there. I wanna actually talk about that specific episode—there’s this moment in the episode where you’re talking. You’re describing a meeting with a big broadcast network in New York. That passed on funding the show. Can—will you—tell us about that!
katherine
Yeah. So, um, most of the first season are reported stories from, uh, working mothers across the country, um, but there’s one episode in the first season that is very personal, that it’s about…me. That’s basically based on a series of audio diaries that I made. And one part of the—the—that episode is—it’s a really about a conflict between work and family and sort of thinking about your future and everything that you want in—in your life, to happen. And, y’know, I talk about, sort of, this—this really—pretty intense series of events, um, in my life, including—The Double Shift was piloted by a big New York podcast company, and…I was really happy with how the pilots went. But the feedback I got, um, from the network was basically that they didn’t think there was enough that was interesting about being a working mother to make a whole podcast about it. And…it’s really hard for me to imagine any other group of people that—I mean, there’s been—there’s obviously podcasts such as the one we’re on right now that touch on motherhood and center the idea of motherhood, but there really until The Double Shift wasn’t a podcast that was really dedicated to the ideas around working motherhood. And so the idea that there’s not enough material for a whole podcast is like—there are a hundred thousand shows about technology and gadgets. There’s like—there’s like, 50,000 shows about NBA basketball and—
biz
Right! [Laughs wildly; continues laughing as Katherine continues speaking.] [Theresa laughs quietly; continues as Katherine continues.]
katherine
—like, what I think is, like—[stifling laughter] y’know? [Laughs.]
biz
Right! Yeah! That’s a “What?!” No, we could come at that with so many different angles. What are you talking about, Katherine?
katherine
I know. [Biz continues to laugh raucously. Theresa laughs.] I know, and—and—sort of, like, and again, uh, over and over I feel like I’m still experiencing this. I mean, The Double Shift has found success and audience and I think people in the podcast industry respect that, but…basically, the—the podcast world, and so much of the media thinks, anything that men are interested in is general interest, and anything women are interested in is niche. [Biz laughs.]
biz
Great. [Laughs wildly.] Yeah! That’s…true! [Makes noises indicated she’s at a loss for words.]
katherine
Yeah.
biz
So…what were the effects of that, for you personally, as you were trying to develop this?
katherine
I really did not want to give up on making The Double Shift, and I knew that I had a great idea, and I knew I was the right person to do it. And I basically just didn’t want to live in a world where, like, The Double Shift could not exist. [Laughs.] And so, I was just, like— [Biz laughs.] —I don’t want, y’know, I just, like, don’t wanna do this! I don’t wanna, like… I don’t wanna give up on this dream. And so, y’know, I was—y’know, a real champion of this honestly, was my husband, who really believed that I should do this, even when it’s—[through laughter] it seemed like basically he was the only person. [Biz and Theresa laugh.] But um…but, y’know. I—I kept at it! And I, uh, y’know, eventually was able to get a number of partners on board, and I was able to get some foundation funding because people in the foundation world actually saw the transformative power of the show more than people in media. Did. So we’re—we were primarily funded, um, by grants. And so—
biz
That’s amazing.
katherine
[Biz and Theresa occasionally interject to affirm Katherine.] —that has been really important and helpful, because real journalism is expensive and costs money, and, y’know, that’s a—that’s a—that’s a problem that I’m—not just I’m facing. A lot of media companies are facing that—that issue. But, um…so yeah! I’m very—I’m very happy that I didn’t give up, and it’s interesting because…I think that people are…sort of taking what The Double Shift is more seriously, but I still have conversations where I was talking to like, um, a kind of a big-time agent and she was like, “Oh. I totally get what you’re—this whole thing, it’s so interesting, and I really get what you’re doing, but nobody, like, else at the company seems to really understand—understand it or get it, which is kind of the whole point of your show.” [Laughs.] Which is really ironic, y’know? [Laughs.] So— [Biz laughs.] But it—who—yeah. It goes back to who has power and who has influence in various industries.
theresa
[Biz and occasionally Katherine interject throughout to affirm Theresa.] Just that dynamic reminds me of—um, in the final episode of your first season where you’re covering parental leave and the story of the mothers who worked together at The New York Times to get their policy change, and how…like, at some point during the show, you kind of…remind listeners, like, they’re doing this while they’re working full-time with either new babies or toddlers, or they’re pregnant. Like—the—the concept that we are struggling to get these policies in place, because the only people who seem to care about it are the people who really are working—I mean, it’s like more than a double shift! It’s like—it’s like—we’re just working all the time! We’re just always working! [Laughs.] Like—
biz
Never stop working! [Laughs.]
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] So like—but like—the idea that it’s, like, on us, then, to also change the policy—it’s like, well no wonder this is so hard! And no wonder this hasn’t, y’know, this—there’s still so far to go, because if the only people who can do it are the people who are already doing way too much—
biz
And those people are not the people who are in power.
theresa
Right!
katherine
Yeah, I—I totally agree. And I think that in some ways, that’s why things—progress has been so slow in our workplaces, because, y’know, the idea of someone who’s coming back to work from a parental—a too-short parental leave, is then responsible for advocating to change the whole company. Like, those people have the fewest resources. To—they’re trying to get through their day. And they—they are just trying to survive. And so the idea that we put it on them to—to make suggestions and plan the lactation room and come up with the new policies is ridiculous! And so that’s why I’m a really big advocate that I really feel that mothers should—and other parents—need—whatever—once they’re past that, sort of, initial stage, like, they need to bring other people along with them and make their workplaces better than where it—y’know, how they found them, basically? And that we’re obligated to do that. And not just get a special deal for ourselves, but make it better for everyone.
biz
Whew! Since, like, the first season of The Double Shift has been out, I guess…[sighs.] Given everything that you were met with making it, in terms of being told that no one’s interested in this probably, or they don’t get it, and…the obvious unequal treatment of mothers in the workplace—what—what’s been the response?
katherine
So…the response from listeners is, like— [Biz laughs.] —completely motivating. And keeping me going. I mean—and that, to me, is so validating, and it’s so much more validating, y’know—every—every email that I get about how much The Double Shift has spoken to someone, y’know, is worth, like, ten media executives rolling their eyes at me. Honestly. Because I know that this work is meaning something to people? And…y’know, it’s also very fun, because, y’know, we—we’re a show—we’ve only—we’ve only launched this year. So people are still very much finding us. And I love it when all of a sudden I’ll see, like, one person has, like, followed us on every social channel. [Biz laughs.]
katherine
And then they sign up for the newsletter. And then they send me a really long email about, like— [Biz laughs harder.] —all of their experiences and how they’re so excited they found the show. And, like…that means so much to me! Y’know? Because I know that…we’re doing something powerful, and that—and also, we’ve, um—started—we’ve done some live events? And that has been amazing. Um, and I think people are really hungry to come together in community. And, y’know, listening to a podcast can be a solitary experience? And…people—we do, um—we’ve done a tour, uh, I call it the “’Fuck Mom Guilt’ World Tour.” [Laughs.]
biz
Yesss. Yesss!
katherine
Katherine: And— Biz: I’ve wanted to ask ya about that! [Laughs.] Katherine: And people are—
katherine
Yeah. And people are really excited to come to an event called “Fuck Mom Guilt.” And anyone who wants to come to an event called “Fuck Mom Guilt” is, like, a totally—a great Double Shift listener. So.
biz
Yeah, right! [Laughs.] Yeah, it’s a—it’s—one of— [Chanting] One of us! One of us! Right! [Theresa and Katherine chuckle.]
katherine
Yes. Yes.
biz
Well I guess I—let me just end on…y’know…what did you personally take away from the first season in terms of, did you discover that you had biases maybe you didn’t realize, or…just had your eyes opened to things that, y’know, hadn’t been on, y’know, your radar? And…what do you want to take into season two?
katherine
[Biz affirms Katherine throughout.] I learned so much. I mean, I’ve been a journalist for over a decade, but this was my first experience hosting a podcast? And also running a media business. So—[laughs.] I—I’ve learned, I mean, the amount I’ve learned in the last year is—is—I almost can’t believe how little I knew when I started? [Biz giggles quietly in the background.] It took, like, just total, like, blind arrogance or something [through laughter] to even try to, like, go forward with how little I knew! But I know a lot more now. [Biz laughs.] So that is really, really great. I’ve learned so much, both in my subject and also, like, how to…how to run this as a company. I actually, like, now have, like, a projected budget for the year. [Laughs.] So, like, that, y’know, like—details, details.
katherine
But I think—y’know, what we’re—so we focused on…a really wide range of people and a lot of different kinds of professions in season one? And so for season two we’re actually focusing a lot on—we’re actually have a theme this season and the—and the—it is, “The Revolution Begins at Home.” And so, we’re talking a lot about how we can rethink our family structures, or gender dynamics, and try to open our minds to very different ways of thinking to support working mothers, um, outside of the nuclear family. And so…I—I really am interested in talking—not just about, like, workplace policies or interesting professions, but every aspect that really goes into what makes us…what makes us successful as working mothers in all aspects of our identity. And I—the reason I am calling it “The Revolution Begins at Home” is because I believe, like, the revolution at work cannot start until there’s a revolution in our homes.
biz
Yeah. No. It’s…a really good thought on how that can happen. I mean, again, it goes in line with things that we’ve been talking about on the show quite recently. Of…oh wait! Maybe we should be looking at how these dynamics are set up at home, even in the best of situations; y’know…how many pebbles do we need to pull out—[laughs]—of the dam before…y’know, we can really reconfigure it to work better for us? And for our family?
katherine
[Biz enthusiastically agrees throughout.] Totally. And honestly, it’s—it’s inspired by my own experience, ‘cause I’m trying to figure out, like, how the fuck my life is gonna work [through laughter] when I have two— [Biz laughs wildly.] —twin infants. [Laughs.]
biz
Ha! I know. It’s coming! [Laughs.]
katherine
So—I can just float around asking everybody questions. [Laughs.]
biz
Oh! Oh! I was gonna say—is the theme of Double Shift this year—[breaks off, laughing.] [Katherine laughs.] Gonna be about twins? [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.]
katherine
[Through laughter.] It’s not gonna be about twins. I’m just hoping to learn from our amazing guests. Uh—we’re not talking about any, like, tips or tricks or, like, twin life or anything. [Biz laughs.] But I’m just hoping to figure something out. [Laughs.]
biz
Well Katherine, thank you so much for joining us. The Double Shift is absolutely amazing, and, uh…I can wholeheartedly say, uh…very dynamic? And has mmmmulti-sides! [Theresa laughs.] It’s multifaceted! There are, y’know—women like things, too, and people can like things that women like! Surprise! [Katherine laughs.] Um, so—thank you so much for—for creating the podcast, and pushing through, and—and making it. And we’ll link everybody up to where they can, uh, download the episodes, um, and become new followers of—of you! So thank you so much!
katherine
Thank you so much for having me. Bye-bye.
crosstalk
Theresa: Bye-bye. Biz: Bye.
music
“Telephone,” by “Awesome.” Down-tempo guitar and falsetto singing. Brainwaves send a message: Pick up the phone (When you, I call) Arm is moving now, no longer stone (When you, I call) Hand reaches out with a will of its own (When you, I call) [Music fades out.]
promo
Music: "Money Won't Pay," by bo en, feat. Augustus. Upbeat, cheerful music. Rachel McElroy: Hi, this is Rachel McElroy! Griffin McElroy: Hello, this is Griffin McElroy! Rachel: And this is Wonderful! Griffin: It's a podcast that we do as—uh, we ma—we are married— [Rachel laughs.] And... How's the ad going so far? 'Cause I think it's going very good. Rachel: [Laughs.] We talk about things we like every week on Wednesdays! Griffin: One time Rachel talked about pumpernickel bread. It was so tight; you cannot afford to miss her talking about this sweet brown bread. Rachel: We also talk about music, and poems, and... you know, weather! Griffin: There was one—weather? [Rachel laughs.] One time Rachel talked about "Baby Beluga," the song, for like 14 minutes, and it b—ooh, just really blew my hair back. [Rachel laughs.] Rachel: So check us out on MaximumFun.org. Griffin: It's a cool podcast with chill vibes. Amber is the color of our energy! Is what all the iTunes reviews say. Rachel: [Chuckles.] They will now! Music: [Fading out] You could end up on the street...
promo
[Science fiction-y beeps and whirls reminiscent of a tricorder. Music heavy on synth instruments enters, plays quietly in background.] Adam Pranica: This is mirror universe Adam Pranica here to tell you— [Ben laughs.] Adam: —not to listen to The Greatest Discovery on MaximumFun.org. Ben Harrison: This is mirror universe Ben Harrison, uncharacteristically agreeing with you, despite the fact that you are my enemy! Adam: The one thing that you must never do is enjoy our bit of off-season Star Trek: Discovery programming where we talk about the first season of Star Trek: Discovery while, at the same time, unpacking news and information about the upcoming season two. So do not tune in and download The Greatest Discovery on MaximumFun.org or wherever you get your podcasts. Ben: And rate it one star on Apple podcasts! [Beeps out.]
biz
Woooo! That was nice.
theresa
It really was.
biz
The podcast, guys—it is amazing. It’s The Double Shift. Go download it wherever you get your podcasts. It is…so great.
theresa
It’s really great.
biz
Yeah. Y’know what’s also great? And fun? Listening to a mom have a breakdown.
caller
[Answering machine beeps.] Hi! I’m calling with a rant. Which I know means I’m having a breakdown. Ugh. My…kid, he’s 16 months old, and my husband is the stay-at-home dad, primary caregiver during the day. And then he goes to work when I come home. And…two days ago, my husband left as soon as I got home. I had our kid for, like, an hour, and then it was bedtime, and he screamed for over an hour at bedtime, which means that my kid was crying with me longer than we were happy. And then the next morning, I had to leave for work. Literally as my kid was waking up, my husband said, “Wait! He’s awake!” So I decided to be late for work and it was the big district meeting, and…I shouldn’t have been late, but I had to see my kid. And I got to see him for about five minutes and then I left for the day and then I came home and my husband and kid were gone and they were at the store so then I didn’t get to see him, and by the time they got back it was basically dinnertime and bedtime and then my kid cried for two and a half hours at bedtime. We couldn’t figure out why, and…then finally, my husband was like, “Well, how about you just leave and I’ll see if I can get him.” And my husband could tell I was getting frustrated. And…so I left the room and within minutes my kid was asleep, which—y’know, is not good for the mama ego. And then just, y’know…ugh. This whole working mom thing? Just...unfair. And I know that stay-at-home parents [sighs] it’s not fair to them either. And it’s just—this whole thing sucks. And the schedule sucks, and why do kids sleep so much— [Biz laughs quietly.]
caller
‘Cause I want to see him! But then, if he doesn’t sleep, he’s grumpy! And…so then it’s not fair either! Either I don’t get to see him when he’s happy, or I get to see him when he’s grumpy. And it’s just…[sighs]. It’s not fair, and it’s stupid and…now my husband and I are fighting ‘cause I’m mad ‘cause my kid’s mad. And then he feels like he’s not doing enough, but of course he is! Just grumpy! And it’s unfair. Ugh. Anyway. Thanks for listening.
biz
Aww. You’re doing a good job.
theresa
Yeah, you are.
biz
It’s an impossible place to be.
theresa
Yeah!
biz
Y’know? I mean—
crosstalk
Theresa: It’s really unfair. And really stupid. Like, you’re really right about that. Biz: Yeah! You’re right! Yeah!
biz
[Theresa agrees emphatically with Biz throughout.] [Laughs.] There is just…that scenario of the baby crying and then the other partner going in and the baby going down. Which…in my brain, would tell me the story that I am the one who was causing this unhappiness in the child. And it’s because of all of these things that I do. That’s not what’s happening. The baby just finally fuckin’ went to sleep. Yeah. Right? Like it’s—[breaks off, laughing.] It’s all that happened! Our sane brain knows that, but…we just aren’t that sane anymore. And like, it’s such an easy trigger for parent shame and parent guilt and I’m…God. I’m so sorry.
theresa
Yeah. I am too.
biz
It really sucks.
theresa
[Biz agrees with Theresa throughout.] You’re just doing such a good job in a situation that you don’t have an answer to right now? And so…y’know. I think, like, Biz, you’re totally right with that being a story. And just remembering that those things are stories and…it’s just a thing that happened in reality? [Laughs.]
biz
Yeah.
theresa
And…that your child is so lucky to have two loving parents and…that you’re doing such a good job.
biz
[Theresa emphatically agrees with Biz throughout.] I think it’s—something that you said reminded me of…parenting. [Laughs.] And that was the, like, we find ourselves lots of times in situations that we don’t have solutions for yet? Solutions may come? But I don’t think we give enough credit to the stress of the moment? When we’re in it?
theresa
The before the solution.
biz
The before the solution. Yeah!
crosstalk
Theresa: Yeah. That time. Biz: Yeah.
biz
Yeah! And that is a real time. And I—yeah. You’re…you’re doing such a good job.
theresa
Yeah, you are.
biz
Theresa, what did we learn today? Well…I think we learned that…y’know, the internet can be a place of community. And support. And…sort of emotional porn. Uh, when we need to looky-loo. And I think what—at least, it sounds like for us has changed in how we use the internet? Since we first had kids and now? Is just that…we are better at figuring out where we should not go; what is not providing us a sense of community; what is not providing us a feeling of a helpful village; and that’s actually a good thing to be able to recognize. Y’know? So the internet is our village now on some levels. Great. Soon it will be our overlord. So that’s okay! But it’s really great when, actually…we can find people that we connect with? Because lots of times we can usually take that offline? And—ta-daaa! [Singing in a showtune style] Person by person, our commune begins! [Theresa giggles.] We also learned that women are, in fact, interesting. Mothers are, in fact, interesting. Their stories are interesting. And can actually carry the same weight as…non-mom, non-female stories. Surprise! And that working parents are juggling and shuffling a lot? And I think what—a takeaway that’s so interesting is, once again, this idea that the story we’re being fed is that it’s one type of working mom out there. [Laughs.] Right? And they’ve got some help and they’ve got, y’know, they’re still able to get home for dinners and we listen—
crosstalk
Theresa: And it’s hard! But it’s—it’s tough! And you miss your baby! But…you, yeah. Biz: And it’s hard! [In a slurred, high-pitched singsong voice] It’s hard! Yeah, but, it’s okay. [Theresa laughs.]
biz
[Laughs.] And that is not—that’s not always the story!
crosstalk
Theresa: I don’t think I know anyone who’s had—who feels that way about it. Biz: Anyone like that. I don’t either. No. I don’t—I don’t either. [Theresa laughs.]
biz
Uh, but it’s a better story to tell, isn’t it? The “keep you coming back for that sitcom.” [Deep breath.] Everybody…[sighs.] It’s really just boils down to “You’re doing a really good job.”
theresa
Yeah you are.
biz
It’s…hard. And…it’s a lot. And everybody’s got different stuff going on, and…we’re all tired. And…we all might have bees in a tree. [Theresa giggles.] Uh…we all might have…been writing in a five-year parenting book, only to discover we don’t actually want to remember? And that’s okay, too. [Theresa continues giggling.] You’re all doing…a remarkable job. Theresa?
theresa
Yes.
biz
You are doing a good job.
theresa
Thanks, Biz. So are you.
biz
Thank you. And we will talk to you guys next week!
crosstalk
Biz and Theresa: Byeee!
music
“Mama Blues” by Cornbread Ted and the Butterbeans. Strumming acoustic guitar with harmonica and lyrics. I got the lowdown momma blues Got the the lowdown momma blues. Gots the lowdown momma blues The lowdown momma blues. Gots the lowdown momma blues Got the lowdown momma blues You know that’s right [Music fades somewhat, plays in background of dialogue.]
biz
We’d like to thank Max Fun; our producer, Hannah Smith; our husbands, Stefan Lawrence and Jesse Thorn; our perfect children, who provide us with inspiration to say all these horrible things; and of course, you, our listeners. To find out more about the songs you heard on today’s podcast and more about the show, please go to MaximumFun.org/onebadmother. For information about live shows, our book and press, please check out OneBadMotherPodcast.com.
theresa
One Bad Mother is a member of the Maximum Fun family of podcasts. To support the show go to MaximumFun.org/donate. [Music continues for a while before fading out.]
speaker 2
Comedy and culture.
speaker 3
Artist owned—
speaker 4
—Audience supported.
About the show
One Bad Mother is a comedy podcast hosted by Biz Ellis about motherhood and how unnatural it sometimes is. We aren’t all magical vessels!
Join us every week as we deal with the thrills and embarrassments of motherhood and strive for less judging and more laughing.
Call in your geniuses and fails: 206-350-9485. For booking and guest ideas, please email onebadmother@maximumfun.org. To keep up with One Bad Mother on social media, follow @onebadmothers on Twitter and Instagram.
Get in touch with the show
onebadmother@maximumfun.org
@OneBadMothers
@onebadmothers
How to listen
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