Transcript
biz ellis
This is Biz. I’m a part-time working mom with two full-blown kids.
theresa thorn
And I’m Theresa. I have a family business, two young kids, and a toddler.
biz
This is a show about life after giving life. Don’t listen with your kids, ‘cause there will be swears. This… is One Bad Mother.
music
“Summoning the Rawk” by Kevin MacLeod plays as Biz speaks. Driving electric guitar and heavy drums.
biz
This week on One Bad Mother, there is a limit to my power! Plus, nature comes to Biz; Theresa has too much on her brain; and we talk to clinical psychologist Dr. Darcy Lockman about the myth of equal partnership. [Music fades out.]
crosstalk
Biz and Theresa: [Cheering] Wooooo! [Biz begins giggling through cheer.]
biz
[Theresa interjects to agree with Biz throughout.] Ahhh. I’m both looking forward to our discussion with our guest about the myth of equal partnership as parents, and…terrified. I just sometimes want the curtain to stay up. On that note—how are you, Theresa? [Laughs wildly.]
theresa
[Laughs enthusiastically.] I am okay. I lost my voice a little bit over the weekend and it’s back more today? But hopefully [through laughter] it stays with us for the duration this morning. [Biz giggles.] I…had a moment yesterday. I was hanging out, uh, with some friends and a friend who I haven’t seen in a while said “How are you doing?” And I—didn’t start crying. Don’t worry.
biz
Hmmm! Okay.
theresa
But I was like—I honestly couldn’t think of what the answer was! [Biz makes intrigued noise.] I was—and it wasn’t like, I wasn’t like trying to be dramatic or anything. I was just like, “How am I? I don’t know!” [Biz laughs often through Theresa’s next several lines, and occasionally interjects affirmatively.] Like—I need, like, a more specific question. Like, “What’s going on with this?” Or “What’s happening with that?” Like, I don’t know overall! That’s too hard! There’s [breaks off, laughing]—there—[breaks off laughing].
biz
Ugh! That’s a hard one!
theresa
Yeah!
biz
Why don’t we just do some division? [Laughs.]
theresa
Yeah! Like, ask me about a thing. And…I think what’s—what is going on in retrospect is that…I’m not in a crisis right now. Which is great.
biz
That’s wonderful.
theresa
I need some time where I’m not in a crisis. But, because there isn’t a crisis—and we’ve talked about being in a crisis on this show, I think—
crosstalk
Biz: Multiple times. Yeah. Right. Theresa: We’ve had a—yeah, multiple times! But we had a whole show on it awhile back.
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa several times throughout.] But like, the appealing thing about being in a crisis is that…that’s all you have to think about. [Laughs.] [Biz cracks up.] That’s—that’s the thing that takes everything out of you. And yes, things fall to the wayside and things are a mess otherwise, but you’re dealing with a crisis! You’re dealing with one thing. Right now, there isn’t a crisis, but there are way too many things, which—some could argue—altogether could make a crisis when you put them all together. I can’t keep track of what’s going on. There’s too many things for me to keep track of; I feel a little to the point of, like, being disoriented? Like I probably need to get back into like meditation or something? To like…kinda try to focus a little bit? I feel really confused about what’s happening? I feel also [though light laughter] forgetful? Like, for the show I try to keep track of…uh, amazing/interesting things that happen in my parenting life? And like—for example I [through laughter] realized that the day before we recorded last week, I had this like crazy thing happen— [Biz begins laughing; laughs escalate as Theresa continues.] —with Grace at the park where she climbed a tree and got stuck in it and we like almost had to call the fire department and like a stranger ended up, like, climbing the tree and lifting her down?
biz
Wow.
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] It was like a whole thing. Really a whole thing. Like, really a thing? And I immediately forgot about it? [Biz cracks up again.] Like, we just went on with the playdate after that? And like, I immediately went on with my life. Like that was just a thing that happened. And there’s a lot of stuff like that right now, and it’s all happening way too fast and all at the same time, and—I mean, I feel like I’m gonna wake up in five years and be like, “Where am I?”
biz
Yeah. That’s a real, uh, thing that could happen! Yeah, I…I definitely have—have been/am in/constantly live in that place that—we’ve talked about that on the show, that it’s like, “I know I’m supposed to have something to talk about, but I can’t—I can’t tell you what happened last week.”
crosstalk
Biz: Like, at all. Theresa: Yeah, like, I know—I know, like, some stuff happened!
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] Stuff happened! I clearly got up, did stuff, and went back to bed and did it again! I just don’t know…what. And then, it’s almost like an interrupt—it’s like a walking dream. K? And then there’s moments of reality that click in where you’re like, “Oh! Gracie was stuck in a tree.” Right? Like, there’s glimpses of the stuff that actually is happening that you already have kind of like…faded away? [Laughs.] And then you go right by—“Oh, that is something that happened! We just did—What—” [breaks off, laughing] [Theresa laughs.] “What’s going on?” Well…that is…a place.
crosstalk
Theresa: Yeah! There—here I am! I think. Biz: Yeah. There you are. Maybe.
theresa
Where am I?
biz
[Mysterious voice] Where’s Theresa? [Laughs.] Where’s Theresa?
theresa
How are you, Biz?
biz
I’m alright. Before I tell you about all the exciting things happening at my house, I want to give a shout-out to my sister-in-law and brother-in-law and congratulate them on welcoming in their new baby, my newest nephew!
theresa
Awwww!
biz
Henrick Kai.
theresa
That is a beautiful name.
biz
Thank you.
theresa
Congratulations.
biz
It’s all me. [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.] Thank you, Theresa.
theresa
[Through laughter] You chose the name.
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] [Through laughter] I did it! I had that baby. [Laughs wildly.] So…I just wanted to share—you know—when it rains, it pours! This weekend, multiple discoveries. Okay. Um, one: there is a beehive in our tree.
theresa
Oh.
biz
Surprise! That’s…discovery one. Discovery—
theresa
Are any of you allergic?
biz
Not that I’m aware of!
theresa
Okay.
biz
[Theresa sympathizes with Biz throughout.] Uh, it’s way up high, too. It’s like—at the end of a branch, way up high. Two: we really…need to call somebody to find out if something’s living in our house. Under our house. ‘Cause there are multiple signs like the…poop everywhere. Uh, and like, holes dug out under fences and just…yeah. Maybe. Right? And then…while exploring—and all of these things were discovered by my children, by the way. While going back to, like, look at where there may or may not be an animal, the kids are like, “Hey mom! Mama! Come look at these bugs!” So then I go around to the side of the house and there are like, two bug things happening. One bug thing is there are just all these tiny black bugs, like, all along the side of my house? K? That’s—I mean—when I say a lot, I mean—
theresa
Like, termites, maybe?
biz
[Theresa affirms and sympathizes with Biz throughout.] They weren’t termites. They’re like little tiny beetle-y things. Okay? So that was interesting. And then we realized we’re standing—you know—have you ever seen like, you’re in the grass and—or the ground, and you look down, and like there’s something disorienting and it’s like ants or something? Just like, so many ants? Okay. They weren’t ants. They were something else. And…there were thousands. Like in the grass. And I was like, “What’s happening?” So…first, I’m on the hunt for a beekeeper, currently, because apparently beekeepers are the best person to come and remove the bees because they will then just introduce the bees into their own hives. So, on the hunt for a beekeeper. Called the, uh, animal exterminator—very pro—not exterminator, “remover;” let me be very clear.
theresa
“Pest Control”?
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] “Remover.” Is the guy who, like, specializes in things that may live under your house. He came out and said he didn’t think anything was under the house. He looked, couldn’t find anything, but we do have a flea infestation under the house! And I’m like…if there’s a flea infestation under the house—
crosstalk
Theresa: Something’s there. Yeah. Yeah. Biz: And the poop, and the digging, something at some point was definitely there.
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] He sealed it all off and put a trap in there, so we’ll see. Day one: nobody in the trap! Then I called our actual exterminator to say, “We have apparently a flea infestation under the house, and these weird small bugs. I’m gonna need you to come.” So he was there this morning— [Theresa laughs faintly] I just was like—
theresa
So many!
crosstalk
Biz: That was like, so many—it was almost like— Theresa: Things like that! All at once! Biz: —“Should I be worried that this is the sign of the apocalypse?” Theresa: Right, yeah.
biz
Like, you know?
crosstalk
Theresa: Or just like, nature is taking your house back! Biz: Yeah, it’s taking my house back! Theresa: Like, nature is like, “No, we’re gonna need this house.” Biz: Yeah.
biz
I am so surprised that the house we live in is sealed enough that I have not seen these things in the house. This is what’s amazing to me.
crosstalk
Theresa: Yeah. I know. It amazes me, too. Yeah. Biz: Of course, I’ve uttered these words out loud now, so— Theresa: Yeah. So now it’s over.
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] Yup. Because if you haven’t seen ‘em yet, that means they’re just, like, congregating somewhere in a corner. So by the time you see one, it’s too late! And I wish I had the power to just wave my fingers and send them all away. Which ties in nicely to what we’re gonna talk about today. And that is: there is a limit…to my power.
theresa
[Banjo strums; cheerful banjo music continues through dialogue.] Please—take a moment to remember: If you’re friends of the hosts of One Bad Mother, you should assume that when we talk about other moms, we’re talking about you.
biz
If you are married to the host of One Bad Mother, we definitely are talking about you.
theresa
Nothing we say constitutes professional parenting advice.
biz
Biz and Theresa’s children are brilliant, lovely, and exceedingly extraordinary.
theresa
Nothing said on this podcast about them implies otherwise. [Banjo music fades out.]
biz
Theresa.
theresa
Yes.
biz
We are parents. [Dramatic, mysterious voice] Weee possess the power to do anything! Is your—
crosstalk
Theresa: All-knowing! Biz: All-knowing. Theresa: All-seeing.
biz
All-fixing. All-providing!
theresa
Yes.
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] We have talked on this show in the past—again, one of my favorite conversations was the crafting conversation, which was also about, like, fixing and—and you had just said, “I don’t…fix things for my children.” Right? When it’s broken, it’s broken. I mean, I’m not saying that was, like, the be-all, end-all. I mean, obviously. Yes.
theresa
I do sometimes, yeah.
biz
[Theresa repeatedly interjects to agree with Biz.] Yeah, sometimes. But like—I, on the other hand, thrive fixing. There’s almost nothing that cannot be fixed. K? Pros and cons to both sides of that team. [Laughs.]
theresa
Yep.
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] [Through laughter] Most of them resulting in therapy. So…that sort of touched on when our children were very little, this, like…the power that our children think we have. Or don’t have. Right? I—I feel like, you know, they—they know we feed them. Right? We’ve been setting up this myth that we are all-powerful. “Hey, do you have food? Great!” “Are you—did—is there a toy in the house? Great!” Right?
crosstalk
Theresa: “Are you cold? Here’s a jacket.” Biz: “Are you cold?” The jacket!
theresa
Yeah. “Are your feet wet? Here’s some socks.”
biz
As they get a little older, I think…the bar that they have set for what we are capable of doing…may be…broken. [Laughs.]
theresa
Mm-hm.
biz
So I’m gonna—I’m gonna ask you: do you think your children have realistic expectations of what you can just do as their parent. [Theresa chuckles lightly.]
theresa
You know—I actually think Grace has a pretty good feel for what I’m capable of? [Biz giggles.] And by that I mean…she doesn’t expect all that much of me? [Laughs.] At this point? [Biz cackles; laughs intermittently as Theresa continues speaking.] Which—I appreciate. Like, I feel like…there’s…there have been times with here where I’m like, “Well…I can help you with that!” or “Would you like”—like, which is great. Oscar…Oscar…really, really is still in the developmental stage of “My mom is God. My mom runs the world.” Like, he really—like, I texted you—
biz
Please share this story.
theresa
—from the road, which—I was driving Oscar to school. And he was telling me how much he wants to go to Egypt. And he has told me this a bunch of times over the last year. He just really wants to go to Egypt.
biz
I do, too. [Laughs.]
theresa
[Biz agrees with Theresa throughout.] But he wants to go to ancient Egypt. Like—and I’ve said, “We can maybe go to Egypt at some point in your life. I don’t really wanna do that trip with you and your siblings when you guys are, like, your ages that you are now? ‘Cause it’s a big long trip; it’s really far away; it would be a lot of work and expensive and tiring and like, a whole thing! And it’s better when you’re older.” “Are the pyramids still there?” “Yes! They’re still there.” He really wants to go to ancient Egypt, though.
biz
Ancient—he wants to time travel.
theresa
So we’ve talked about how that’s not—and he says, “I know that. I know.” But you can just kinda tell that he still kind of thinks I can take him to ancient Egypt? And—what he told me the other day was specifically, he really wants to go inside a Sphinx—like—
crosstalk
Biz: The Sphinx. The Great Sphinx. Theresa: Yeah! I guess it’s the Great Sphinx. Biz: It is the Great Sphinx.
theresa
Yeah. But it’s modeled after—well, okay.
crosstalk
Biz: Okay. Look, there’s a lot of theories— Theresa: Let’s not. Let’s not get— Biz: —about what that is. [Suddenly serious, confiding tone] Ancient aliens. Theresa: Okay. Biz: Go ahead. [Laughs.]
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] So he wants to go in there and find many cats. Living there. I don’t know where he got that idea or if that’s anything. I don’t really know much about this—this is not my area! But this is a constantly the thing that I’m saying to my kids is, “This is not my area!” [Biz laughs delightedly.] “I—I can’t answer this for you! I don’t know!” The other thing he wants is not only for there to be lots of cats there, but he thinks he might be able to find some ancient honey there. I don’t—I don’t know.
biz
Doesn’t matter.
crosstalk
Theresa: But it’s like—it’s like— Biz: Doesn’t matter where the information has come from. [Laughs.]
theresa
Exactly! And it’s, like, once he gets going…he’s like, “Well I better be really specific about everything I want so that Mom can get it right.” You know what I mean?
biz
Oh, yeah
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] “‘Cause I wanna get it—I wanna lay it all out right now ‘cause I don’t wanna find out later that Mom takes me to Egypt, but we don’t get the ancient honey. Like, I’m gonna make sure—" And there’s so many things like that! And it’s like, when I—it was so funny to me, but then I was also like…“But I’m gonna have to, like, let him down! And explain to him that, like, none of this is in my power.” None of it!
biz
None of it...yet. [Laughs.] I’m just kidding! [Theresa bursts out laughing.] What? You guys can’t travel? I take my children back to ancient Egypt every day. [Hypnotic voice] “Lay down and close your eyes.” [Laughs.]
crosstalk
Theresa: But I don’t even think telling him that it’s not in my power means anything to him! Biz: No, I know.
biz
It doesn’t.
theresa
[Biz continues affirming Theresa through the rest of her musings on the subject.] Like, it’s—I’m still just letting him down. Like, he’s still hurt that I haven’t—and it’s the same as, like, when something is lost! Or something is broken! He’s upset at me. That I’m not able to solve—like—
biz
To solve it!
theresa
To make that be—to make the world be different for him. That is a really hard thing to deal with. Not only because it’s, like, a lot of pressure, but it really plays off of…like, my feelings that I should be doing more to fix his life to make things perfect for him all the time? And I also feel guilty, like, “Does he think this because I’ve set our lives up this way?” [Biz “oooh”s.] To where…he—like, I’ve made him think that I can do all the—do you know what I’m saying? Like, this is my fault?
biz
Double—get—root—whatever it is, it’s your fault. And you’ve ruined it.
theresa
Yes!
biz
That—it definitely plays into that. [Theresa laughs.]
theresa
Yes.
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] Yeah. Katy Belle, as well, has started to…venture out of that area. Uh, and I’ll get into a little bit of, like, what her expectations of what I can do are? But like…Ellis is the same—like, it—sadly, it’s not Egypt. That’s a great—I wanna go on that trip! But it’s things like—we’re gonna go to New York this year. And I’m like, what—Mm. One—one day. We’re gonna go to New York; he’s gonna get to go to the Natural History Museum; he’s gonna see all the dinosaurs; it’s gonna be—because there’s two things that are happening in these scenarios. One is: they have no sense of understanding that you can’t just go, and two—they’ve created some sort of expectation of an experience that…is…
crosstalk
Theresa: Not—come true the way they’re—yeah. Right. Yeah. Biz: Definitely probably isn’t going to happen. Right?
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] I mean, we see this on a mini scale all the time around the house. Of like, “Oh, I’m gonna go to the park and I’m definitely gonna—” Like, we just recently did a thing where I went to the little farm his school has, and I could tell—I mean, it kinda turned into a big frustrating event because his expectations of what it would be like to have me there? Weren’t met. Because he was so overwhelmed by, “I don’t know what to do with you now that we’re here, but I clearly had a vision that we’d be doing all these things.” And…I don’t know what those things are, and so there’s lots—I mean, so that’s already small. Like, that’s the multiple, every-day. But then—we know that that’s gonna happen in this fantasyland as well—
crosstalk
Theresa: Yes. When the stakes are way higher, ‘cause we’ve actually, like, put something into that. Biz: Of—when they stakes are way higher. Yeah.
theresa
Like, a lot into that.
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] And…I think these…sort of…incredible, out-there, sort of fantasy ones—expectations—that they have that we can meet—I think—I think it’s important to go back and definitely talk about how that makes us feel! Because…we’re supposed to…take care of everything! I’m gonna tell you this small scenario of this. So, Katy Belle—forever, multiple years—ever since she was little, you know, would be like, “Will you brush my hair and put it in a ponytail. Will you braind my hair. Will you put my hair up. Will you put my hair up.” Every time I did it, she would take it down. And…it was driving me crazy, and…y’know, she’s got, like, just that hair! That you can’t—ugh. Keep untangled and blah blah blah blah blah. And I just sort of made this decision ‘cause Ellis was young—I’m not gonna do this! I—this is something that she desires and thinks I can do, any time she asks, and I cannot. K? And I don’t really want to. It’s like—“Will you pick my clothes out?” Yeah, but you’re just gonna not wear whatever I pick out for you, and…that is time that I really need for something else. Okay? So…we’re on this trip with friends, and they’ve, y’know, it’s a couple and they’ve got kids just a little younger than our kids. And Katy Belle’s asking me—we’re, like, in the middle of an activity. It’s not like we’re at home sitting around; we’re like—we’d gone up to, you know, AirBnB, like a cabin with this other family to like hang out where there was snow.
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] So we’re like, tubing. Right? Like, a tubing—but it’s chaos! Everything’s happening. And Katy Belle suddenly, like, “Will you…put my hair up? Or braid my hair?” And I was like, “No. This is completely the wrong time for me to do this.” And then I hear my friend say, “I’ll do it!” And she does it, and it’s nice, and it’s lovely, and I felt like I just told my kid I couldn’t time travel her back to Egypt. I kept thinking…like, here’s the smaller version of that. “My mom can do anything; my parent can do anything,” and I began to question myself. Why am I not doing this? Why am I not meeting this need? Is—y’know. Have I neglected her? Am I setting up some sort of thing? Why does this other parent—why can she do it and I can’t do it?! Right? Like—and to me, that ties into this? This, like…I don’t have all the power, like—‘cause there’s the power they think you have, and then there’s the power that we think we’re supposed to have. And maybe I’m not that powerful. Maybe I don’t have that power. Because—I think when we talk about these big things, like, “No, I can’t fly. I can’t…make you wings. I can’t—” [laughs.] “—you know, do those things—” There’s other things, like, I can’t get her or him every outfit that they would like. I can’t get every toy. I can’t— take them on the trips they want to. I can’t sign them up for music. You know? Like, there is a limit to the power that I have as their parent because of the limits that I have! Right? Yeah.
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] Yeah. Right. Thinking about…the hair thing—that is a thing that’s like a perfect parent thing? It’s actually—it makes sense that it’s happening with Katy Belle and not Ellis; like, I think there’s [laughs] there’s levels to this. So like, the level that’s—that Oscar is at, it’s…it’s a complete delusion. Like, “I don’t understand the way life works, so—" [Biz laughs.] “—my parents are everything.” Like, “My parents are the universe,” basically. “My parents are the universe.” Then, at Katy Belle’s age, it’s like—she knows that you’re not the universe, but she wants something from you that you’re not sure you’re able to provide for her! Right?
biz
Right! Yeah!
theresa
And that one is actually—it’s not smaller! It’s actually the more painful one, right? Because that’s the one where we’re like—we’re—like—we know that our younger kids are wrong.
biz
Right! [Laughs loudly.]
theresa
We are not the universe. But there’s some part of us with the older kids that still wants to be…the perfect parent, which is just as unrealistic as us being equal to the universe.
crosstalk
Biz: Well, and it—it’s not possible. Theresa: It’s not possible.
theresa
We all have things we’re good at and not—like, I—I’ve had friends bake cupcakes and cakes for my kids’ birthdays, because I don’t wanna do that. [Laughs.]
biz
[Through laughter] Right! I don’t—I don’t want to do that! Right!
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] Yeah! Like I don’t—and I—but also, I—it feels overwhelming! Like, it feels like I don’t know if I could really do it. Like I don’t know if, like, the feel—like how you described, like, that scenario where like, “We’re on this trip and we’re tubing and like there—everything’s crazy! Like, I can’t be braiding hair right now!” Like, to me, that’s—I would—I would be like, “I can braid hair anywhere.” But I can’t cook for anyone in that scenario! [Laughs.] Which—you know what I mean? Like…it’s too crazy ‘cause it’s not—it’s—we just all have things that we’re—
crosstalk
Biz: That we are willing to do versus not willing to do. Theresa: Yeah! And that—and that feel easy to us, because we like them or something.
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] And I think when you add multiple children to the scenario, there becomes a little of the, like, “No, I can’t meet this expectation, yet I’m meeting this other’s expectation,” and sometimes that swaps, but I’ll admit it’s a little unfair for the oldest. And I’m witnessing that. Y’know, as I do it. And…that leads to yet another thing I’m up at night worrying about. Right? Like…am I…communicating the idea to one that I can do anything and not to the other? But, then there’s the—at a certain age, you can’t be! And you have to help your children understand…that you are not the center of the universe. And that you cannot do anything, and that they are capable of doing it. And…that’s a hard place to be, too, because it’s a big shift! Right? Like…like, it’s one thing to disappoint Oscar with not being able to go to ancient Egypt. Because like you said, it’s a little—like, in your own mind, you’re like “This is very silly.” And…it’s much easier for me to be like, “This just isn’t gonna happen whether you understand it or not.” And with the other stuff, yeah! I would like to think I could provide—I had the power to provide my kids with whatever education I thought would be best, y’know, if I could provide them with…y’know, the—every clothing item they wanted to do, or, y’know, haircuts or—like, whatever! Whatever.
crosstalk
Theresa: Like, actual things Biz: Actual things! Theresa: That—that are like, that could be attainable, but just aren’t right now. Yeah. [Laughs.] Biz: Yeah! But just aren’t attainable, right? Theresa: Ugh. Yes. Yeah. Biz: Like, and that’s a hard one to be like—y’know.
biz
That’s a—“Well, can we get this?” Yeah, no.
theresa
Or like—or like—can you go on the field trip.
crosstalk
Biz: Yeah! Can you go on the field trip? Nope. Theresa: Y’know? I really would like to. I cannot do it. That day. Yeah. Theresa: Yeah. Can’t do it. Yeah.
biz
And those begin to be, like…”Can’t we just go to ancient Egypt?” [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.]
music
“Ones and Zeroes” by “Awesome.” Steady, driving electric guitar with drum and woodwinds. [Music fades out.]
biz
[Chill acoustic guitar; continues through dialogue.] One Bad Mother is supported in part by Postmates. When you need red wine at 4 PM, sushi at 9 PM, a breakfast burrito at 8 AM, and ibuprofen at 10 AM, you’re a parent! [Laughs wildly.] Postmate it!
theresa
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biz
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theresa
Hey, you know what it’s time for! This week’s genius and fails. This is the part of the show where we share our genius moment of the week, as well as our failures, and feel better about ourselves by hearing yours. You can share some of your own by calling 206-350-9485. That’s 206-350-9485.
biz
Genius…fail time, Theresa. Genius me.
clip
Biz: Wow! Oh my God! Oh my God! I saw what you did! Oh my God! I’m paying attention! Wow! You, mom, are a genius. Oh my God, that’s fucking genius!
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] Okay. So, Oscar is taking soccer. Uh, it’s his first time taking a sport at all, and he doesn’t know how to play soccer. He’s five-and-a-half years old; he’s taking it because it’s what is offered at school on the day that school gets out an hour earlier than normal? [Biz laughs.] And so, like, it’s convenient for me for him to go and do that. But he did want to take the class! So I was like, great! This is great. Well, he goes to the first class; he says it was okay. After the second class, I go and he’s just sitting out. And…when I…take him home, he’s like, “I don’t like soccer.” Y’know, “I don’t—I don’t like it. It’s not fun.” Whatever. And…part of me was like, “Grrr!” I’m so annoyed ‘cause I kind of knew this was gonna happen; I’ve already paid for it and this is like a whole thing, and like I wish you could just stick it out and like, try to learn how to play so that it could be fun! But these are all thoughts in my head. But I’m like, thinking about it. And what I thought about was…okay. Oscar is—he has his own style, and I’ve watched him in group settings before and seen what his challenges are as far as, like, participating and following what’s going on? And I thought to myself, y’know what? It probably isn’t fun for him, because it’s probably moving too fast for him and he probably doesn’t understand what’s happening. I’m gonna call the coach!
biz
[Excitedly] Ooooh!
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] And—this is like one of those things where I’m so still dealing with my, like, school trauma with Grace from a year ago, two years ago? That like…talking with teachers and coaches and people is very…triggering for me. Like, for—triggering for my anxiety. Like, it just—I—brings up a lot of feelings. But I thought to myself, I might—this might be fine. I think I have some ideas for the coach that might make a difference for Oscar. Called the coach, introduced myself, he was very nice, he was receptive, this was not the first time he’d had a call like this— [Biz laughs.] —he thought that my ideas were great, he was looking forward to—and he said, “Let’s just keep talking; we’ll keep working at it.” Sure enough, the third class, I go and pick him up, and I come over and he’s standing with the coach and the coach says, “So what do you think, Oscar? How was it this week? Was it better?” And Oscar said, “Yeah, it was better.” Huge smile on his face.
biz
Oh, Theresa.
theresa
And it was like—okay. Like, and I know that this is not necessarily mean the rest of the thing is going to be great! But I was like, I did a thing that had enough—that, like, made a difference. This was in my power; I didn’t—y’know, I wasn’t—I wasn’t too scared to do it; I didn’t make a big thing out of it; I just…tried a thing, and it made a difference. And I—I’m really happy.
biz
I—I am so glad to hear that, and I, y’know. I really feel that the genius is that you pushed yourself to do it, given it’s not your comfort zone?
theresa
Yes!
biz
Because of your experience.
theresa
Exactly.
biz
It’s sort of like—y’know, you date a bunch of jerks—[laughs]—and then, like, you finally date somebody who’s really great? [Theresa laughs.] And you’re like, “Oh! This isn’t the person for me forever! But this person’s teaching me that I can actually not hang out with jerks!”
crosstalk
Theresa: Yes! Exactly. Biz: Right? Like—I’m so glad. Theresa: Thank you. Biz: Good job!
theresa
Thanks.
biz
It’s October. So it’s time to take out the Halloween decorations. Now, anyone who has listened to the show for a very long time knows that I might have some control issues and very specific ideas about where things should go. [Laughs.] And how they should go up. And I’ve tried to be cool. ‘K? Tried to be cool.
theresa
Theresa: Have you, though? I’m just kidding. Biz: Kind of? Yeah.
biz
Yeah, I know. For like, a minute. [Theresa laughs.] And then, uh, it’s not in my power to be cool. Katy Belle never—just never—just never worked, and…that’s—it’s okay.
theresa
Wait, what do you mean?
biz
Just like, she just—I just—did—I couldn’t let go when she wanted to put things up.
theresa
Okay. Right.
biz
[Theresa regularly agrees with Biz throughout.] ‘K? Like, I just was like…no, it’s horrible. [Laughs wildly.]
theresa
Let me show you how to do it. Yeah. Let me show you.
biz
I mean, there are so many strengths that Katy Belle has, and I have—I have honked that horn multiple times on the show. So yesterday was a crazy day; a little too much, too much was going on. And we pull out the decorations, and I’m just like, “I don’t have it in me to—to do this. Stefan, you and Ellis can do the inside of the house.” And Stefan’s like, “Really?” [Laughs wildly.] “Really?” [Theresa laughs faintly.] And I was like, “I guess. But you’re so good!” Were—I was like, “Ah-hah. I’ll just do the window thing, but other than that—let’s see what happens.” Katy Belle, y’know, who’s a teen—she’s not, she’s ten—uh, was like, “Great.” [Laughs.] [Through laughter] Just went to her room. She didn’t really want to do it! Ellis—five-and-a-half—was so into it, and did such a good job! Like, I literally, like, looked around at all the different places he wanted to hang things? And it was brilliant. He put things in places that I would never have done, and they look so great! And I just was like, “Stefan! Like, he did such a good job at this!”
theresa
That’s so cool!
biz
Like, he was so…good!
theresa
Wow!
biz
I know! And I—I know it’s so silly that I sound so excited about this, but like—
theresa
No! It’s really cool! Yeah!
biz
It was so cool, (A), that I could just be like, “I don’t—I’m gonna let it go.” And (2), that like, it wound up being something he was really good at! And that, like, he was really into and he was so excited about it! And I just don’t feel like I have enough of those stories about Ellis? And like, I just…it was like, overall I just was like, “This is a joy.”
theresa
That’s so great.
biz
Yes, thank you.
theresa
Good job.
biz
Thank you!
caller
[Answering machine beeps.] Hi, Biz and Theresa! I’m calling with a genius! With all of the back-to-school activity, my kids need pictures. Family pictures. Pictures of themselves for the “All About Me” posters; for the family tree projects; what have you. I never have pictures available. So what I’ve started doing is taking all of the extras from their school pictures, and putting them into a folder. And then, when I get family pictures, I print off a couple of extra! I put those in the folder, too. Then, whenever my kid says “I need a picture of me for a poster,” or “Mom, I need a family photo,” I have a bunch of them available! This just saves so much time running and getting pictures printed; scrambling to find them; or just saying “forget it” and avoiding the project altogether. Thanks, Biz and Theresa. You’re doing a great job!
biz
[Amazed tone] Ahhh!
theresa
I mean.
biz
My brain broke.
theresa
Yeah. This is…I’m—kind of mad at you— [Biz cracks up.] —because I’m like why have I not been doing—like, it’s—this is so annoying every year!
crosstalk
Biz: And I—I never see it coming. Theresa: I never see it coming! Biz: Every year— Theresa: And why? ‘Cause it’s every year!
biz
It’s every year! In—
theresa
In every class!
crosstalk
Biz: FYI, it goes on for a while! Theresa: At some point—it—yes!
biz
It’s not like, “Oh—”
theresa
It’s not like, this is the only year they want a family photo.
biz
Yeah! Or individual photos. They’re like—[quietly] this is so good.
theresa
It’s so good!
biz
It’s so good. Thank you for reminding us— [Theresa laughs.] —that we have brains. You’re so genius. Failures!
clip
[Dramatic orchestral music in the background.] Theresa: Fail. Fail. Fail. FAIL! [Drum.] Biz: [Calmly.] You suck!
biz
Fail me, Theresa.
theresa
Jesse and I—over the weekend—both got groceries on the same day without talking to each other about it.
biz
Wow.
theresa
Yeah.
biz
Wow.
theresa
Yeah.
biz
That’s…yeah.
theresa
Yeah!
biz
I—wow!
theresa
Yeah. We have a limited amount of space, so…
biz
Eat up!
theresa
Yup.
biz
Wow.
theresa
Yeah.
biz
That’s something.
theresa
Yeah.
biz
Yeah. [Both Biz and Theresa burst out laughing.] It speaks to multiple levels.
crosstalk
Theresa: It does! Biz: About how you’re failing. Theresa: Ayup. [Laughs.] Biz: Yeah. Wow.
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] Okay. I—and, y’know. I know. I get it. We’re all…self-care ebbs and flows. This is good as we can do. Right? But I was really excited at the end of last year that I had been working so hard to make, like, the yoga time for me to be something that was consistent. Even if “consistent” meant three times during the week. It was helping so much with my brain? And it was helping just physically, I felt really good. And y’know, I knew that summer it wasn’t gonna happen as much, but now that school’s back it was supposed to—and it just…it hasn’t! I mean, Stefan was traveling and to be fair, that happens. Y’know. I’ve tried different schedules—like, I’ll do it nighttime after Ellis has gone to bed. But then it seems to be the one day he constantly has meetings, right? Like—it’s—or I just have too much going on because it’s still feels like the first week of school, even though it’s not?
crosstalk
Theresa: The fall is really hard. Really hard. Biz: Fall is hard! And like—
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] I just really as a result now feel…the physical results of not doing it ‘cause—it’s like—it’s like a drug. You taste it, and you’re like, “This is so good! I wanna live and feel like this all the time!” This is important! And then…when you no longer are getting it? I feel it. Like I feel the mental drain and I feel the physical drain and I just…I don’t know how to get back into the rhythm of it, a little bit? Sort of like at the beginning of the show you’re like, “Oh, my brain, I don’t even know where I am.” I—like, I could tell somebody—
crosstalk
Theresa: How do you do it? Biz: How to get back into it— Theresa: Right. Biz: —if somebody was asking me. Theresa: Yeah. Yeah.
biz
But I’m like…how am I gonna do that? Anyway. So that’s where I am. I dunno.
theresa
I hear you.
biz
Ebb and flow.
theresa
Yep.
caller
[Answering machine beeps.] Hi, One Bad Mother. I’m calling with…um, what just turned into a double fail. Because it’s bath time at our house. I have a two-year-old and a baby and I was having the two-year-old sit on the potty to try to go pee-pee before the bath, and, um, some of the peeing actually shot out of the bowl. And while I was paying attention to that, my baby—who is in the pre-crawling stage and has a penchant for…uh, tasting hard surfaces when he’s on them? Put his face down in the—I’ll say—puddle area, and I’m pretty sure he consumed some of the pee. So it’s sterile, right? And uh…that’s okay. We’re in the bath now. We’re gonna clean him all up. [Laughs.] But, um…then, just as I was calling you, literally, I was at the washing machine, which is in the bathroom, and it is very clear that I have washed a diaper. [Biz laughs.] And there is that hydroscopic gel all over everywhere. So it’s gonna be a long night here. You guys are doing a great job; I am letting my baby consume human waste. Thank you for listening. Bye!
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] Hmm. Well. Yeah. This is…this is—yeah. It’s a fail. It’s a nightmare. Here’s the thing, is that, like, you have—this is how fails can work. [Theresa laughs lightly.] The fail—first the pee flying out of the bowl. For me, I have a very low bandwidth for like, being okay with that. That there feels like, “Ugh!” And then your baby—I really like the spin you put on this. By saying, “I have a baby who likes to taste hard surfaces. Has a penchant for tasting hard—” Yeah. Okay. We know that those exist, and of course—the baby is wandering over while you’re trying to clean up and probably has licked some essence of pee. Good news is, if your baby is constantly licking hard surfaces? Probably not the worst. [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.] Now…you think, “I am emotionally trying to get over this thing that’s just happened. It makes me feel like I’m failing.” And like, looking over your shoulder and finding a ghost, you see the laundry and that you’re washing a diaper. That’s…I think that’s worse than what just happened? [Laughs wildly.]
theresa
Yeah.
biz
And you’re like—“I don’t have time to like, I haven’t, like, ahhh!” And it’s just like spinning at you like a—some sort of, like, crazy, y’know, art project in high school, like, “Failure! Failure! Failure!” just going around and around at you.
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] But it’s also kind of—it’s a gift? [Biz laughs.] That you—[through laughter] discovered it when you did? Because I feel like…when you find that out after your baby licks pee off the ground, you’re just like, “Oh, and of course there’s a diaper in the wash. That’s—that’s gonna suck.” Whereas, like, uh, if you discovered it another you might—you might’ve, like, been really upset about it!
crosstalk
Biz: Well, yeah, but—[breaks off, laughing] Theresa: So this way—you’re kinda taking it in stride!
crosstalk
Theresa: I was impressed by how you took it. Biz: [Through heavy laughter] Yeah. Oh, no, she took that well!
biz
I was—[breaks off, laughing.] It is, like, if it happens that same night and you don’t discover it, and you’re like, [calm voice] “I’m finally over the pee incident. [Sighs.] So calm.”
crosstalk
Theresa: Now I’ll go switch the laundry. Yeah. [Laughs.] Biz: Just gonna open—do the laundry! [Screaming in horror] “Ahhhh!”
biz
Well, good. Here’s to all of our fails compounding upon one another as rapid as possible. You’re doing a horrible job. [Laughs.]
music
“Mom Song” by Adira Amram. Mellow piano music with lyrics. You are the greatest mom I’ve ever known _I love you, I love you._ When I have a problem, I call you on the phone _I love you, I love you. [Music fades out.]_
theresa
[Jazzy piano music begins, continues through dialogue.] One Bad Mother is supported in part by Michelin.
biz
Parents: we’ve all been there. You’re driving down the road. Your kids are napping in the backseat. Finally! [Giggles.] You’re thinking about what to make for dinner, when suddenly—another car swerves in front of you! It’s probably a parent trying to get something for dinner. Anyway—[laughs]—you slam on your brakes and for a split second, you’re terrified if you’re gonna stop in time! You want tires that perform well with every stop, and that’s where Michelin comes in!
theresa
Because stopping safely consistently matters. The average family will stop some 90,000 times throughout the life of a tire. Michelin builds their tires to perform across every diaper run, pickup, drop-off, and road trip. So next time, when you’re looking for new tires for the family car, consider Michelin Premier All-Season Tires. Michelin: Performance Every Time. [Music fades out.]
biz
Hey, Theresa! Let’s call someone today!
music
[Up-tempo acoustic guitar with choral “ahhs” in background.]
biz
Theresa, this week we are calling Dr. Darcy Lockman, who is a clinical psychologist and author of All The Rage: Mothers, Fathers, and the Myth of Equal Partnership. Her first book, Brooklyn Zoo, chronicled the year she spent working on a psychiatric unit at a city hospital. Her writing has appeared in the New York Times, the Washington Post, and The Atlantic. Welcome, Dr. Lockman!
dr. lockman
Thank you!
biz
Before we get into—I mean, we just said the title of the book. Uh…uh—just—while everybody is letting that soak in, I’m gonna ask you who lives in your house. [Laughs.]
dr. lockman
Okay. So in my house, um, in addition to me, is my husband, George, who’s also—like me—a psychologist; and our two daughters, Liv and Tess. Liv is ten; Tess is about to turn seven. And after I finish writing the book, it was our promise to our kids that we could get a puppy. So we now have a one-year-old dog in our house as well! Rita.
crosstalk
Theresa: Wooow. Biz: Whoaaa! [Laughs wildly.] [Dr. Lockman laughs.]
crosstalk
Biz: You get—oh. That’s a whole book in itself! The—the— Theresa: Yeah. Dr. Lockman: It is, yeah.
biz
The—the pet division of labor. Um—[laughs.]
dr. lockman
Oh, man.
biz
Wow.
theresa
Your mistake was not saying “When I finish promoting the finished book we’ll get—” [Biz laughs wildly and continues laughing for several seconds. Dr. Lockman laughs enthusiastically as well.]
dr. lockman
[Through laughter] I know! You’re right! I was not thinking ahead.
theresa
Yeah. [Laughs.]
biz
I…love it. Alright. All the Rage: Mothers, Fathers, and the Myth of Equal Partnership. I—I—almost want to just skip right to…tips? [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.]
crosstalk
Dr. Lockman: Yeah. Biz: Ya got any tips? But—but— Theresa: Can you… Biz: Yeah, can you just skip steps? Yeah, how do we fix this? Theresa: How do we fix this? So…how do we get around this? [Laughs.]
dr. lockman
Well, you know, it’s such a—it’s a great question, and it’s one that I am inevitably asked.
biz
Sure!
dr. lockman
[Biz agrees with Dr. Lockman throughout.] And the reason I wrote the book was, um, kind of reflective of the way I think as a human being and also as a therapist? Which is that there are simply no easy solutions? But the more understanding we have, and deep appreciation for a phenomenon, the better position we’re in to kind of…eke out something that works better for us. So the book, um, what I really wanted to do was unpack the problem.
biz
[Knowingly] Mm.
dr. lockman
You know, it’s sort of like in AA, the—right, the AA cliché, you have to, um, admit you have a problem in order for there to be any work on it. So the book really looks at this kind of like pervasive, um, societal problem in order to help people have a fuller understanding that will help them live in a way that’s more in line with what they want.
biz
Okay. Yes. That is probably one of the scariest things about opening this book! I fully agree that it is the way to start, y’know, the conversations and this process. But—y’know, in all seriousness, like, the book kinda sat next to my bed and I was like, “I—I—I already know some of what this is going to bring up for me. When I open this book.” And I think about, like, y’know, the pebble in the damn. Right? Like—or the—
dr. lockman
Yeah.
crosstalk
Dr. Lockman: The finger. Yeah. Yeah. Biz: Y’know, person behind the curtain where you’re like, some—sometimes the curtain is better.
biz
Theresa, you were saying at the start of the show—
theresa
[Both Biz and Dr. Lockman interject multiple times to agree with, affirm, or mirror Theresa.] Yeah, like, Biz and I—you know, we’re both in heterosexual married relationships with young kids, and…thinking about this topic is really, like, scary! Just genuinely scary because it feels really real. It feels like an actual problem, but because I don’t feel like I know how to fix it? I’m—I’m just sitting here going like, “Well…but I love my family!” [Biz cracks up.] “So…I just won’t—I—like, I don’t want to have bad feelings about this…life. That I’m—that I have. That I’ve worked so hard.”
crosstalk
Dr. Lockman: I understand. Theresa: You know? Biz: And so—let me just get— Dr. Lockman: Right.
biz
—right into the, like, the start of the book. It’s—your book is based on data and research, and you spoke to so many couples when you were writing the book, and in the book you write: “Division of labor in the home is one of the most important equity issues of our time. Yet at this rate, it will be another 75 years before men do half the work.” We’ve done enough setup now. [Laughs.] Tell us— [Theresa laughs.]
dr. lockman
[Laughs.] Right. Right.
biz
Tell us about your experience and what it was like to write this book!
dr. lockman
So, the book began as a question that I could not get out of my head, which was: why are we still living this way? [Biz laughs.] Um, though my husband and I are both professionals and we’re totally progressive and egalitarian and before we had kids we would’ve said of course we’re gonna share everything, that wasn’t how it went? Y’know, my husband’s a really loving dad, involved with his kids; but, um, those—the stuff about managing our house and the kids’ lives really all fell to me in a way that didn’t feel on purpose, and also didn’t feel changeable, and then of course it wasn’t just us but all the women I knew were having this experience. So—pretty much every day, I found myself thinking, “Why are we still living this way? Why are we still living this way?” And after a few years, I thought, oh, okay. Well, I used to be a reporter. [Biz laughs.] I’m gonna answer this question! I’m gonna— [through laughter] No, I really—I really—it was this burning question. So that’s the origin of the—of the book. Seeing, um, the, kind of, dual-career couples around me all living in this way that they wouldn’t’ve said they wanted.
dr. lockman
So I wanted to…to figure it out! And writing it was…let’s see. So that’s the origin. The writing of it was—was amazing, because I found out so much interesting stuff!
biz
Yeah!
dr. lockman
So I totally enjoyed doing the research. I mean, it made me really angry? [Biz laughs loudly; Theresa laughs quietly.] Because the more I dug into the research—the family studies research, sociology, gender studies, all of it—the more I saw this, like, systemic and pervasive undercutting of women and their ability to live, like, fuller, freer lives because of…the proportion of the, kind of, unpaid domestic labor that falls on them no matter their kind of… ethnic background, socioeconomic status, um, you name it. This is like, just a huge pervasive problem. In the West, where people actually consider it problematic, and then—in communities and countries where it’s not a problem. I mean, in India, women do, like, 90% of the unpaid domestic labor? Uh, US, it’s about, um, 65%. So we’re not the worst-off, um, but we’re in more of a position to kind of combat it because our society is at least, you know, always on the verge of—[laughs faintly]—moving toward more social justice. [Biz laughs.] I—I think.
biz
No, I—I agree. I—I—you can, despite how long it takes in many issues, we sometimes eventually get there—be it not perfect—in lots of areas of social justice. But I—you said something that hit so hard. I—like—I—it’s that—it’s the surprise. It’s the, we’re going into this with one expectation that we know is going to be how it’s going to be. And then…you wake up and you’re like, it’s not that way.
crosstalk
Biz: I’m really struggling. And— Dr. Lockman: Exactly. Yes.
biz
And—and—and—as Theresa said, it didn’t feel like anybody’s fault that it wound up that way; it just was, and you don’t also…hate your partner! I wanna get into…everything. But let’s first get into this notion that all women are put-upon and all men are complete morons. You actually did a thing where you encountered, over and over again while talking with heterosexual couples with kids, that there’s a difference in perception about how the equality of the workload is supposed to be at home.
dr. lockman
[Biz agrees with Dr. Lockman throughout.] Well, the difference is usually in the perception. I mean, women are…I can’t say “universally,” but many women are very angry about this setup in their homes. And their husbands tend to see—or partners tend to see things as more equal than they are. So this shows up both in the research and, you know, the kind of journalistic interviews I did. I heard the same thing over and over again from men, which was that they did quite a lot. And I think that…y’know, children add so much work? To one’s life? Um, that—that when they come along, everyone feels like they’re doing more? And everyone is? It’s just, um, sort of a matter of, like, the amount that each partner is taking on, both in terms of like physical labor like dropping off and picking up places, and then also, like, the mental labor of keeping track of who needs to go to the doctor and who needs a birthday present for the party they’re going to over the weekend, and what morning is—you know, early morning at school. All that stuff that kind of, um, mothers tend—both anecdotally and in the research—to keep in their heads much more than fathers.
biz
Yeah. So…you then get into biology and I wanna—I would love for you to talk to us about that. [In slightly facetious tone.] It’s—it’s because we’re just born that way, right? Women just naturally are able to do that, and…men aren’t! Men are—[breaks off, laughing.]
dr. lockman
Right. Right!
biz
[Through laughter] Y’know.
crosstalk
Dr. Lockman: It’s the brains. It’s just natural that women think about other people all the time and men tend to think about themselves. It’s just natural. Biz: Y’know. It’s just—and that—it’s evolution. [Laughs.] It’s just natural. [Laughs.]
dr. lockman
[Biz agrees with Dr. Lockman throughout.] So um—I—I love the language of—of the academy, right? So I’m reading all this stuff and there’s something called the “naturalistic fallacy.” Meaning, if we—if we see it all around us, we tend to assume it’s because it’s natural. [Laughs.] [Biz laughs.] Um, and that’s not true! I mean, clearly only females can gestate and birth babies? But that’s pretty much where the biological differences end, in terms of parenting? [Biz laughs.] Um, in fact, men who spend, um, intimate time in contact with pregnant women, close time? Their hormones—the same hormones that rise in the pregnant woman? Rise in her partner, um, to a different—same proportion, but different degrees. So there’s a lot of evidence in terms of evolutionary biology that men were actually biologically predestined to be involved parents as well. I mean, it only makes evolutionary sense, especially given that 150,000 years ago, women were much more likely to die in childbirth? There had to be another adult around who was ready to attach to a baby in order for, um, the species to survive and thrive. So—we—we, though, have all these misconceptions about biology! Um, we don’t—we don’t know that! I mean, I couldn’t believe I didn’t know that thing about hormones until I started doing research for the book. Like, why don’t—why don’t we kind of culturally know this?
dr. lockman
[Biz agrees with Dr. Lockman throughout.] And when they measure physiological responses to newborns, men and women look exactly the same! New parents look exactly the same. You cannot differentiate by gender. There’ve been, now, neuroimaging studies comparing different groups of parents: primary care mothers, secondary care fathers—so the fathers who aren’t, y’know, staying home with the babies—and then primary care dads. And in—in this one study they were looking at, um, gay fathers who’d adopted. So there was no maternal involvement. And what they found was that the, um, differences in the brain were not by gender, but rather by simply who was spending the most time with their babies. So brain activity looks different depending on what—how much you’ve learned about how to take care of your baby! Not on whether you’re a man or a woman. So there’s tons of biological evidence that men do this just as naturally as women. Though let me say parenting skills are learned and not innate. In primates. Including—including human primates.
biz
[Dr. Lockman interjects occasionally to agree with Biz.] Well, it’s the—learned. That’s what this all boils down, to, right? I mean, like, there are…we live with a constant bombardment of tropes? And…images? And…sitcoms? And…Pottery Barn Catalogs? And…y’know, of this…of the mom doing one thing, and of men doing a—I mean, we were even saying at the beginning, like, y’know, “Men’s work is hard work! It’s the haarrd work!” [Theresa laughs.] And, like, I mean, like, that is a trope that easily—I was raised—y’know, like—I mean I was—y’know, a kid of the 70s and 80s and so that was not necessarily the trope in our house? But it was around, y’know? I mean, we were coming off of that.
dr. lockman
Exactly. It was around. Right.
biz
It was around!
dr. lockman
[Biz agrees with Dr. Lockman throughout.] That’s—that’s why it’s so hard to change this household by household. I grew up, too, in the 70s and 80s with a father who was super involved. He had—my mom went back to school when I was eight; my dad had a pretty flexible job; he was—he was the only dad around. He was always around! Um, but it was around me what the “normal” way to live as a family was! And the normal way to live as a family was the mom was in charge of all the, like, the drudge work. Right? Women do the drudge work.
biz
Yeah. Well, it—we called it, we renamed it here, “The President of Everything.” Where— [Dr. Lockman laughs.] —you suddenly discover, like, that—yeah! You’re—
crosstalk
Theresa: Even if you’re not actually the person who has to set the table, you’re the one in charge of making sure the table gets set. Biz: Gets set! Yeah! [Laughs boisterously.]
dr. lockman
Exactly. Say, “I’m happy to do it if she asks!”
crosstalk
Theresa: Right. Yeah. “Just tell me what to do.” Yeah. Biz: Right! Dr. Lockman: Something that the women—that the women would say to me, “Well, he’s happy to do it if I ask.” Biz and Theresa: Yeah!
dr. lockman
Y’know, it’s sort of a way that women deny their own anger. Y’know, it says, you were saying, Theresa, at the beginning—you love your husband! You don’t wanna be angry at him! And look, if you’re not angry at him, that’s fine! [Biz and Theresa both make indifferent/unconvinced noises. Biz laughs.] But it’s different to say “I’m not angry at him” than it is to say “I don’t want to be angry at him.” Y’know? One is aspirational. [Laughs.] And one is actual. And I think, y’know, dealing with the actual is…probably pretty important.
biz
Well—because—I mean, to me, that is the thing that makes this feel like a really hard problem to solve. Because…you can tell your partner what it is that you need. Y’know? Let—we’re gonna be open and talk all the time. “Here’s what I need, and—great.” And then…there’s the work of reminding; there’s the work—because—and it’s not—
crosstalk
Theresa: You’re still the one saying, “Here’s what— Biz and Theresa: —I need!” Theresa: Why is it not, “This is what—we should be doing together? Because we both agree that this is what the kind of—” Yeah. Biz: Why—we—yeah! What—yeah, why aren’t we both— Dr. Lockman: ‘Cause what is the implication of that? Biz: Yeah! Theresa: Yeah.
dr. lockman
The implication is that it’s my job, unless I find someone else to take it over. [Biz laughs.] And that’s the position a lot of women find themselves in! The mother is in charge unless she’s made other arrangements.
biz
Right. Unless she’s made—we were—yeah. Yes. I— [Theresa bursts into laughter.] I’m…yes. I—hear you. I hear what you’re saying. ‘Cause I was thinking, like…alright. If—if I suddenly…[serious voice] something happened and I stepped out of the picture for some reason. Like, a truck. [Laughs raucously.]
theresa
Hit you?
biz
Yeah! Hit me!
crosstalk
Theresa: While you were crossing a street. Go on. Biz: While I was crossing the street.
biz
[Theresa agrees with Biz throughout.] Uh, and—happy scenario—I—I did have this, like, weird passing thought the other day of—I guess Stefan would probably…hire [laughs] people to do most of what I’m just…doing.
dr. lockman
For free. Yeah.
biz
Yeah. But—yeah, but I’m doing for free! Like, that would be the solution—
theresa
Theresa: Yeah! He would have to hire somebody. Yes. Biz: would be—he would have to hire somebody. And like— Dr. Lockman: Yeah.
biz
That brought up a—a whole bunch of feels. And like [breaks off, laughing]. [Theresa laughs.] And like—again…I…it’s so easy to fall back on the tropes in these situations. Like, I want you to talk to us about “maternal instinct.” [Laughs.]
dr. lockman
[Biz occasionally interjects to affirm Dr. Lockman.] Yes. Right. So we have this idea in our culture of “maternal instinct,” and I’d like you to note that there is no correspondent “paternal instinct,” right? No one has ever uttered the phrase “paternal instinct.” [Biz laughs lightly.] Maternal instinct has become kind of code-word for “moms know best,” which kind of, um, is a place of honor and it seems, supposedly, but what it really means is “mom has to do all the work.” Um, and—and—there is, actually, no such thing as the maternal instinct, at least insofar as biologists would use the term “instinct”! An instinct is a set of behaviors that happens automatically in response to a stimulus. And human beings don’t rely on instinct! We have, um, really developed frontal lobes which allow us to learn, uh, and live flexibly in whatever circumstances we find ourselves in. So this idea of the maternal instinct is both used to kind of elevate women—to kind of highlight their giving, self-sacrificing nature—but also, um, stands in to really let fathers off the hook for having to ever be in charge. Something that I—when I spoke to people about is, that men would say, “Well, if you don’t like it—if you don’t like the way I do it, you’re just gonna have to do it yourself”—
dr. lockman
[Biz continues occasionally interjecting to agree with Dr. Lockman.] Um, and—and one, um, gender studies guy named Michael Kimmel, a sociologist, said to me, “You know, if you’re at work and you’re in charge of writing a report for your team and your colleagues tell you it’s not to par, do you say to them, ‘Well, you’re just gonna have to do it yourself next time’?” Of course not, right? That’s no way to live in a relationship! So there’s this idea in the, kind of in the social science of “maternal gatekeeping”? Which is what you’re talking about, mothers criticizing fathers and then pushing them away from doing stuff? But there’s also a chicken and the egg question. Y’know, what comes first? The father kind of blowing off his responsibilities or the mother being pissed at him. [Biz laughs.] And it really does become this, kind of, self-perpetuating cycle that both members of the couple really need to take responsibility for. One of the—one of the interesting areas of research in—kind of gender studies and sociology—is this idea that women are really—girls are really raised to be communal? To think about other people and their feelings and their needs. Whereas boys kind of, without appearing conscious of it, or teachers being conscious of it, are raised to be agentic, to think about their own priorities and comforts. And, y’know, the end result of that in heterosexual marriage is you’ve got one person who’s been raised to think about others all the time, and one person who’s been raised to think a lot more about himself. So there is, y’know, there’s so much cultural stuff.
dr. lockman
[Biz agrees with Dr. Lockman throughout.] And I think, y’know, I know for me, when I would see my husband, like, what became his kind of like glaring incapacity to think about other people’s needs? [Biz laughs.] And I say this not as an insult to him; I think this is such a—kind of like, not inborn, but learned male trait—like, not to think about other people—like, and then I would think, it was so foreign to me ‘cause I was raised to think about other people all the time! Like, what was this person doing who was, like, putting his need for a cup of coffee first rather than think about the fact that the rest of us were standing out in the cold waiting for him. Like, how is it that—how could one be that way? And then it would kind of enrage me! And then he would be so pissed at me for suggesting that he shouldn’t be thinking about himself and his own needs. So I think there is this, kind of, y’know, real problem that we have to face of the different ways we’re raised to, like, take care and neglect ourselves and one another.
biz
So…any tips? [Laughs boisterously.] [Theresa cracks up.] I know.
dr. lockman
Oh my God. If I could, like, cancel one word from the English language, it would be “tips.”
crosstalk
[Theresa laughs.] Biz: Yeah I—I bet. I bet. Yeah, there’s— Dr. Lockman: No, no. I’m kidding.
dr. lockman
And—[inaudible], my tip is, um—
crosstalk
Biz: No, by the way—we are not actually—a joke. Because there are no tips for this. Theresa: It’s a—we’re saying it as a joke. Just saying it. [Laughs.] Dr. Lockman: Oh, okay.
crosstalk
Biz: This is…so deep-seated in our culture. Yeah. Dr. Lockman: I know. Well, look, I’m—so I’m a therapist? Right?
crosstalk
Dr. Lockman: I’m mostly a therapist, and so people always want tools, and I’m always like, “Go buy a hammer!” Biz: Of course. I know! Yeah! Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah! [Laughs wildly; continues laughing loudly for several seconds.]
dr. lockman
Um—so…look. I will—what I will say, though, is the kind of answer your question is. The couples who have the most success in establishing a division of labor that works for both of them are really aware of sexism in our society and how it is going to infiltrate their relationship if they do not totally stay on top of this dynamic. So, y’know, couples decide—together, as a team—that they wanna make living in like an equal and harmonious way a really important part of their relationship. And then they just stay on top of this shit. So it really does seem—oh, can I swear on your show? I’m sorry.
crosstalk
Biz: Yeah. [Laughs.] Biz and Theresa: Yes. [Both laugh.]
dr. lockman
Um, it—it really does seem to be a matter of…of a lot of attention. There’s a book called Equally Shared Parenting by Marc and Amy Vachon that was written about a decade ago. And they were a couple who decided they were gonna live in this way, and they realized how unusual it was, and they started looking for other couples who were doing it, and one of the couples they interviewed for their book said to them, um, “We decided that what we wanted most was to live as if we were equals. We didn’t care about money; we didn’t care about career success; we mostly just wanted to be equals.” And that quote from that book really stuck in my mind ‘cause I thought, “Oh my God! They had to want that most of all of everything in order to make it happen? How could that be?” And then doing all the research and seeing how I was living and everyone around me was living, I thought, "Yep. They—they nailed it. ‘We—we mostly just wanted to be equals.’” It really has to be a shared team priority.
biz
I mean, it’s hard!
dr. lockman
[Both Biz and Theresa agree with Dr. Lockman throughout.] Y’know, the best—one of the things that I’ve actually heard from couples who read the book together, that has been really, um, that’s given me a lot of hope? They—they say, like, once they—both of them—really understand how sort of societally-determined this is? It—it absolves them of feeling the responsibility and guilt and allows them to move forward with living differently in a way where they’re not feeling, like, a lot of self-reproach or anger at the other.
theresa
Theresa: Yeah. It’s not like a personality defect or somebody doesn’t care. Yeah. Biz: Well that’s—yeah! Dr. Lockman: Exactly. Yeah. Theresa: Yeah. Biz: Right, because— Dr. Lockman: Exactly.
biz
[Dr. Lockman occasionally interjects to agree with Biz.] Yeah, you just said, I—when I realized I thought it was just me and then I talked to all these people, and they—it was—I—I think that…definitely is a key. It’s not—it—it is the norm. [Laughs.] It is the norm that this is happening! And—I—yeah, I really like the idea of—of—everybody in a partnered relationship reading it together, as opposed to…me just going over and hiding it under Stefan’s pillow— [Theresa laughs.] —or passively-aggressively putting it in different places in the house. That—
dr. lockman
Or following him around the house reading passages aloud— [Biz bursts into laughter.] —which is what women emailed me they were doing. [Laughs.]
theresa
[Quietly] That’s amazing.
dr. lockman
[Through laughter] Which I thought was hilarious.
biz
Yep. Yep. That is—yeah.
theresa
[Biz repeatedly agrees with Theresa throughout.] And Biz, you—you said—and everybody in partnered relationships—and so…it’s interesting, I think, to also think about how these dynamics might play out in same-gender relationships.
crosstalk
Biz: Yeah! Did you— Dr. Lockman: Yeah!
dr. lockman
[Biz and Theresa both frequently agree with Dr. Lockman throughout.] Yeah, it is! You know—it—because the—the book is about sexism in heterosexual relationships? I didn’t talk to a ton of gay couples. But it was interesting, the couples that I did talk to, ‘cause, like, one—one—um, lesbian couple said to me, “Y’know, we really think about the other person and what she’s experienced during the day, and then, y’know, if she’s had a harder day than me I try to lessen the load when I get home.” And then a gay male couple said to me, “Well, y’know, we have the same problems as everybody else in terms of mutuality. And thinking about the other.” And I thought, that’s really interesting, ‘cause you’re describing what people in relationships with men more often have problems with, and them women are describing sort of the strengths. And—and actually, there’s research that shows that of all gendered configurations of couples, lesbians co-parent most harmoniously? And if you think about the idea of communality and agency and who is raised with emphasis on what—that it really—that really makes some sense in that context.
biz
Yes.
theresa
Yep.
biz
It does. Everybody, to the island! [Laughs.] [Dr. Lockman laughs.] To our—[breaks off, laughing wildly.]
crosstalk
Dr. Lockman: [Through laughter] Oh, I’m ready. I’m going. Biz: Themyscira! Oh no!
biz
Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much, Dr. Lockman, for—on all of our behalfs—subjecting yourself to [through laughter] this research.
dr. lockman
Oh, it was so fun! You’re welcome.
biz
And this—yeah. I—I really appreciate it, and I—I’m going to just say now, we really need to have you back to talk even more about this? With—‘cause like, we talk about it…in our own ways, on the show, but to talk to somebody who has the research and the background is probably more helpful. And…I—yeah. I just—this is a remarkable book, and…just to everybody out there—it’s worth pulling the pebble out. And letting the damn break. It—it absolutely is. [Dr. Lockman laughs.] So…um…thank you so much. Uh—
dr. lockman
Well thank you! I’ll come back any time. Just call me.
biz
Absolutely—[laughs] oh, we will. [Dr. Lockman and Theresa laugh, and continue laughing as Biz continues speaking.] I—I might just call you at—not about the show!
crosstalk
Biz: “Hi! I am in the middle—” Dr. Lockman: [Through laughter] I’d say that’s fine, too. Theresa: Do you have time for another client? Biz: Yeah. That’s right! How could you—how could he just step over that cat puke for a whole week? Dr. Lockman: Oh, my God. I know. Biz: Anyway, just—[breaks off, laughing.]
dr. lockman
The struggle is real.
biz
I know. Thank you so much. We’ll link everybody up to where they can get a copy of the book. Thank you.
dr. lockman
Thank you! Take care! Bye!
crosstalk
Biz: Okay. Bye-bye. Theresa: Bye.
music
“Telephone,” by “Awesome.” Down-tempo guitar and falsetto singing. Brainwaves send a message: Pick up the phone _(When you, I call_) Arm is moving now, no longer stone (When you, I call) Hand reaches out with a will of its own (When you, I call) [Music fades out.]
promo
[Ocean sounds in the background.] Speaker 1: [Piratey voice] Ahh. There’s nothing quite like sailing in the calm, international waters on my ship, the S.S. Biopic (bi-AH-pic). [Ship’s horn toots.] Speaker 2: [Piratey voice] Avast! It’s actually pronounced… “BI-oh-pic.” Speaker 1: No, ya dingus! It’s “Bi-AH-pic!” Speaker 2: Who the hell says that? It’s “BI-oh-pic!” It comes from the words “biology”— Speaker 1: It’s the words for “biography” and “picture!” [Car horn honks.] Speaker 2: If you— Dave Holmes: Alright, that is enough! Ahoy! I’m Dave Holmes; I’m the host of the newly-rebooted podcast formerly known as International Waters! Designed to resolve petty—but persistent—arguments like this! How? By pitting two teams of opinionated comedians against each other with trivia and improv games, of course! Winner takes home the right to be right. Speaker 1: What podcast be this? Dave: It’s called Troubled Waters! [Car engine revving, driving off.] Where we disagree to disagreeee! [Voice trails off into the distance.]
promo
[Mid-tempo, upbeat music.] Jo Firestone: Hi, I'm Jo Firestone. Manolo Moreno: And I'm Manolo Moreno. Jo: And we're the hosts of Dr. Gameshow, which is a podcast where we play games submitted by listeners, regardless of quality or content, with in-studio guests and callers from all over the world! Manolo: And you can win a custom magnet. Jo: A custom magnet! Manolo: Subscribe now to make sure you get our next episode. Jo: What's an example of a game, Manolo? Manolo: "Pokémon or Medication?" Jo: How do you play that? Manolo: You have to guess if something's a Pokémon name— [Next two lines overlapping] Jo: Or medication? Manolo: —or a medication. Manolo: First-time listener, if you want to listen to episode highlights and also know how to participate, follow Dr. Gameshow on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Jo: We'd love to hear from you! Manolo: Yeah, it's really fun! Jo: For the whole family! We'll be every other Wednesday starting March 13th, and we're coming to MAX FUN! Manolo: Snorlax. Jo: Pokémon? Manolo: Yes. Jo: Nice!
biz
[Quiet, wavering voice] Ahhhh!
theresa
Mm-hm.
biz
Yeah! Just gonna leave all that out there!
theresa
Mm-hm.
biz
We didn’t get into, like, half of what I would have loved to have talked about. Guys? I was terrified to open this book. Because it’s scary! And…to, like, really have to confront it? And it’s—it’s—it’s worth pulling the pebble out, guys. It’s—it’s a lot. But we’re all dealing with it and the only way to get past it is to constantly confront it. So. Yay! Again, the book is: All the Rage: Mothers, Fathers, and the Myth of Equal Partnership. Speaking of myths—myth! Myth? [Theresa laughs.] “Yeth?” [Biz laughs.] It’s my favorite Muppet joke, guys. Let’s listen to a mom have a breakdown!
caller
[Answering machine beeps.] [Through tears] Okay, so I was calling to leave a rant ‘cause—well—I—I was feeling okay and then I heard this, “Tell me I’m doing a great job,” and—I just don’t think I am. [Sobs.] This week is so hard. [Sighs.] My oldest son started kindergarten, and he’s excited and scared and—all the good things that he should be, and he’s getting on the bus all by himself and I’m not ready for this and then he gets anxiety and he’s not ready to go but he has to go. And—it just—I feel terrible that I’m, like, forcing him to go some days, ‘cause it’s only been four days now. And two of the days he’s been super excited and two of the days he’s basically begged to stay home with me. Which—I don’t stay home. I have to go to work. And work has been so overwhelmingly busy. And then I have an 18-month-old who goes to daycare but now he cries going to daycare because his big brother’s not there with him anymore [voice thickens] and he misses his brother. [Shuddering sob.] And I drop him off and he’s looking around and he’s saying, “Brother! Brother!” and he’s looking for his brother to be there with him. And he doesn’t want to be alone. And the teachers are nice and try and help. But…he wants to be with his family and I want to be with my family. But I have to go to work. And there’s just so much on my plate! Like, I can’t handle it.
caller
And I’ve been on antidepressants for…like, a year because of postpartum, and they’ve tried to take me off of it because it’s making my hands tremor so bad and they think it’s because of that. So now I’m weaning off of antidepressants and [sobbing laugh] this was a horrible week to choose to do that. And my emotions are just all over the place and I feel like I’m not a good mom. [Deep, sobbing breath.] Okay. That’s my rant. I’m on my lunch break and I have ten more minutes so I have to pull myself together to try and be a good employee so I can keep my job and then go home and try and be a good mom. And then my kids go to bed and I have to try to be a good wife but then…get up and do it all again tomorrow. Alright. Back to work. Thanks for listening.
crosstalk
Biz: Wow. Theresa: Yeah. Biz: You are doing such a good job. Theresa: You are.
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] I mean…first off, I’m just gonna knock the antidepressant thing out. Yeah! If my—when my medication, like, was too high? Alllll the tremors! [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs lightly.] So it was about adjusting. But—this is—the stuff you’re talking about, with your kids, and their, like, emotional responses to the change. Of the preschool and the kindergarten. I feel like that’s something we don’t ever, like—that’s not, like, the norm parenting thing to talk about? With that age group? And that’s like, such a part of that age? And like…
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] If it’s happening for your kids, it’s so—like, it happened with my kids at those ages. And it was so hard. I mean…
biz
Oh, it’s unbearable!
theresa
The worst.
biz
It’s unbearable!
theresa
Yeah. And it’s not—it—even though you’re—even though you know you’re not—like, you know in your mind that you’re not responsible for…the way they are feeling? Like, you can’t fix that necessarily? But…we feel—we take it on like we are responsible. For it.
biz
Right! Absolutely! I mean, yeah!
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] Like, as though we could fix—I mean, this does play into our topic today. Like…we take it on as though it’s in our power. And that’s why you’re feeling like a failure, ‘cause there’s some part of your brain that’s telling you: you should be able to fix this? Which is…not real!
crosstalk
Theresa: That’s not real. Biz: It also ties into our guest.
crosstalk
Theresa: Yes. That’s true, too. Yeah. Yeah. Biz: We—the emotional labor of worrying about the emotions of our children!
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] And like…you clearly are taking the lion’s share! Of that. And…you can’t turn it off, so. Sorry! [Laughs.] I mean, ‘cause we’ve all gone through this! Where it’s like, I wish I could accept all the things that I know to be true about what’s really happening here. And just be able to approach this completely rationally. But you have two very little children in your house, and that alone is enough to throw any sense of rationality right out the window. ‘K? Then you’re working full-time, so that’s—an—a—let’s add that to the cake of insanity. And…you also are in a partnered relationship in which we’ve talked about that dynamic of like, “Now I have to be a person too!” Right? Like—and that’s a huge weight. And…no one feels good seeing their children upset. And—it kicks us right in the emotional groin. [Theresa laughs quietly.] Okay? Like—it’s—that’s your toddler moment! “I wish I could be home too with my family! I don’t wanna—” you know, like, we don’t acknowledge that we have those exact same feelings at times of, “I don’t wanna have—"
theresa
I don’t like this!
biz
I don’t wanna go to school either!
crosstalk
Theresa: Yeah. This sucks! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Biz: I wanna be with my family all day! I love my little children. Right?
biz
[Theresa continues to agree with Biz throughout.] Some people out there really enjoy being with their three-and-five-year-olds all the time! And like…that—
crosstalk
Theresa: It’s okay! To feel that way! Yeah! Biz: It’s okay! Yeah!
biz
But we disregard that one right away. And I just…everything you’re experiencing is, like, a—a lot.
theresa
It is.
biz
And…you are not alone. And…you really are doing…a good job. You’re—you’re doing a good job.
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] I wanna add that…I think when your sweet little kindergartener is having some anxiety going off to school, that is one of those things that we don’t prepare ourselves for as a society? Like, we do ask a lot of our five-year-olds. [Biz laughs.] We really do! We ask a lot of our five-year-olds. And the—in some ways, the—the setup is setup for them? And it’s expected that they’re gonna have a hard time for the first few days, and the first few weeks, and sometimes the first few months. But…we don’t—in our minds, as parents, we’re prepared for, “Oh! And then when they’re in school!...” Dot dot dot. [Biz “Oooh”s] “Soon they’ll be in school!” dot dot dot. And it’s this idea that once they’re off to school, all better now!
crosstalk
Biz: All better! Our emotional—yes. Theresa: Yeah. Everyone goes to school.
theresa
[Biz affirms Theresa throughout.] I go to work, and they’ll go to school. We have school and daycare and work. And it’s like…the reality of that? Especially in the first week? [Biz vocally shudders.] And the first couple weeks when everybody’s just getting into the routine? Is so different. It’s really—it can—especially depending on who your kids are, it can be really, really hard. But also…like, the routine is your friend. Y’know? Like—it’s—the routine is your friend. And so I just wanna acknowledge that those early days are a real place to be, but also that that’s not…that is not forever. Like, that feeling of, like, everything being like, “Are they gonna go today? Are they gonna be okay today?” That is not forever.
biz
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] Yeah! I mean…I think…Theresa and I have sat in this room once a week and witnessed this with each other. And…yeah! I will say, sometimes it feels like it goes on forever! I mean, it does! And then, we’ll be talking and I’ll be like, “Hey, that thing changed! I’m not talking about that anymore!” [Theresa laughs.] “How’d that happen?” You are doing…a really good job.
theresa
Yeah, you are.
biz
And you just call back and listen to me tell you that every time you need to!
theresa
Yep.
biz
You’re—that’s—you are doing a good job.
theresa
Yes, you are!
biz
You really are! Theresa, what did we learn today? [Laughs wildly.] [Theresa laughs.] [Jokey voice.] “Ooooh. Is this still a comedy show about parenting?” [Theresa laughs again.] We…learned that we are a lot to our kids. And that there is some emotional repercussions when we realize we can’t be? And when we have to show our kids and tell our kids that we can’t be, and…the emotional, like…feelings of wanting to be? I would love to be able to put my kid on a plane and take him to New York to the Natural History Museum. I do. I would love to have that power. I don’t have that power! I would like to take Oscar— [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.] —to ancient Egypt! That is all I would like to do! And pet cats inside the Great Sphinx! This would be…the most amazing thing. I wish I could always braid Katy Belle’s hair with she wants it. Y’know? I wish—I—I do. But I—I can’t. And also, I don’t want to. And I don’t have to. Right? And like, there’s a lot in all of that. ‘K? That brings up a lot. And plays right into what we talked about with our guest, and the division of labor and just…how…I’m even spending most of my time concerned about that.
biz
Right? Like, that’s…one more thing I’m president of. Is, y’know, we’ve talked about this before and I—y’know, I’ve talked about this with Stefan, where I’ve said things like, I have these moments where I’m like, “Does Stefan think about Katy Belle’s hair the way I think about her hair and the fact that she hates it and the fact that we can’t find a product that is easy for her to use. To achieve what she wants.” Or—they—y’know, she’s struggling learning how to take care of it herself. Right? Like—I am! I’m thinking about those things! I don’t know how not to think about those things!
crosstalk
Theresa: Yeah! And it’s nice that you are! Biz: I’m not mad at him that he’s not thinking about those things!
biz
It’s just…is he? And why might he not be? And that ties into what we were talking about today, and so…I just…[sighs.] You know what, everybody? Here’s the takeaway. It’s a lot of work. And you’re doing a remarkable job.
theresa
Yeah, you are.
biz
And…we…have to keep talking about it. It’s a lot, but maybe it’ll take a little more off our plate in the long run? And…best case scenario, uh, if you’ve got kids in your house, you can help impact how they walk out in the world and are in relationships later. Or you could just move into their house and be like, “Is that the right thing to do? Are you being thoughtful?” [Theresa laughs.] “Who’s in charge of this? Oh, I’ll just do it.” [Laughs boisterously.] [Theresa bursts into laughter.] Everybody, you’re doing a good job. Theresa? You’re doing a great job.
theresa
Thanks, Biz. So are you!
biz
Thank you! We will talk to you guys…next week!
crosstalk
Biz and Theresa: Byeee!
music
“Mama Blues” by Cornbread Ted and the Butterbeans. Strumming acoustic guitar with harmonica and lyrics. I got the lowdown momma blues Got the lowdown momma blues Gots the lowdown momma blues The lowdown momma blues Gots the lowdown momma blues Got the lowdown momma blues You know that’s right [Music fades somewhat, plays in background of dialogue.]
biz
We’d like to thank Max Fun; our producer, Hannah Smith; our husbands, Stefan Lawrence and Jesse Thorn; our perfect children who provide us with inspiration to say all these horrible things; and of course, you, our listeners. To find out more about the songs you heard on today’s podcast and more about the show, please go to MaximumFun.org/onebadmother. For information about live shows, our book and press, please check out OneBadMotherPodcast.com.
theresa
One Bad Mother is a member of the Maximum Fun family of podcasts. To support the show go to MaximumFun.org/donate. [Music continues for a while before fading out.]
speaker 2
Comedy and culture.
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Artist owned—
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—Audience supported.
About the show
One Bad Mother is a comedy podcast hosted by Biz Ellis about motherhood and how unnatural it sometimes is. We aren’t all magical vessels!
Join us every week as we deal with the thrills and embarrassments of motherhood and strive for less judging and more laughing.
Call in your geniuses and fails: 206-350-9485. For booking and guest ideas, please email onebadmother@maximumfun.org. To keep up with One Bad Mother on social media, follow @onebadmothers on Twitter and Instagram.
Get in touch with the show
onebadmother@maximumfun.org
@OneBadMothers
@onebadmothers
How to listen
Stream or download episodes directly from our website, or listen via your favorite podcatcher!
