TRANSCRIPT Ep. 322: Instinct or Excuse with Dr. Carla Naumburg

Transcript

biz
									
This is Biz. I’m a part-time working mom with two full-blown kids.
theresa
									
And I’m Theresa. I have a family business, two young kids, and a toddler.
biz
									
This is a show about life after giving life. Don’t listen with your kids, ‘cause there will be swears. This is One Bad Mother.
music
									
“Summon the Rawk,” Kevin MacLeod. Electric guitar with driving drumbeat.
biz
									
This week on One Bad Mother: Is it instinct, or an excuse? Plus, Biz is trying to be “okay with it,” Theresa gets help, and we welcome back Dr. Carla Naumburg to help us stop losing our shit.
biz and theresa
									
[Simultaneous, cheering] Wooooooo!
biz
									
[Theresa responds affirmatively to Biz throughout.] [Singing] Wah-bop-bop-bop-ba-bah! Just put it right in the title. Just—it’s gonna be that show. Stop losin’ our shit. Speaking of losing our shit, how are you, Theresa?
crosstalk
									
Theresa: I am doing pretty well. Biz: Good! Theresa: I wanted to acknowledge something. Biz: Mm. Oh. Theresa: Yeah. Are you ready? Biz: I’m ready to be acknowledged! I mean, that sounded weird. Theresa: Okay. I’ll acknowledge you too. Biz, can we just start off the show by saying “Biz, I acknowledge you, you’re doing a good job”? Biz: Thanks. Say it. [Laughs wildly.] I am… present. [Both laugh.] Biz: Okay.
theresa
									
[Biz frequently agrees with Theresa throughout.] So, a couple of weeks ago, I hired a part-time babysitter to help with some driving with my kids, and some evening or late-afternoon stuff. And…I—I have a lot of mixed feelings about it. And about sharing it on the show. And I realized that, by not talking about it on the show, I was … kinda being dishonest about what was going on in my life. Because I feel like—due to our ability to have this person help with stuff—and some of it was, like, physically, two kids had to go to appointments and get picked up at the same time. There was no—like, I needed another person. But also, I’m—like, I’m looking for—like, up ahead towards November when Jesse’s gonna be on tour for three weeks, and I’m thinking, like, “How—how’s this all gonna go?” You know what I mean? And just…the—just the stuff! We’ve—we made a decision and we had the ability to do it, and so we hired this person and she’s part-time and it wasn’t our plan, but that’s what we’re doing, and guess what? It makes a huge fucking difference. Huge! I mean, really huge. Because it’s also, like, you know, if she gets there early or someone’s not there or whatever, she can, like, fold some laundry. Or clear the dishwasher. Or whatever. And it’s actually not even that much time, but such a huge impact on my life? That I just wanted—like, I just wanted to say it? I don’t feel like I’m…proud or special that I can do this and a lot—like, do you know what I’m saying? Like—it’s not a genius moment, but at the same—and I know lots of people can’t do it, but like, that’s kinda what has me riled up about it a little bit? Because I’m like, here I am, this person who, like, my husband and I have our own business, I have a pretty flexible schedule, I have a lot of things on my plate just at home. Just who my family is, I have a lotta things on my plate. But, I was drowning! You know? I was drowning! And so this is, like, something that is actually making my life pretty functional right now?
crosstalk
									
Biz: I think this is great. Theresa: It is great! Biz: And—I’m gonna say to you what I would say to anybody listening to the show if they called in with something like this. Theresa: Okay. Biz: You don’t need to qualify this. Theresa: Uh-huh. Biz: You needed this. Theresa: Yeah. Biz: You needed this. We have all been listening to your life. Theresa: [Through laughter] Oh, true. Biz: For six years! Theresa: Good point. I don’t need to justify it to you guys.
biz
									
[Theresa regularly interjects to agree with Biz.] You have three children that require a great deal. And…yeah! I mean, at the beginning of this, you know, school year when you started talking about all the different, like, appointments, as well as—they’re going to three different schools! That’s impossible! You—that’s, like, that involves—you’re either paying for after-school care, or you’re paying for somebody to help you pick up your kids! Right? And — I think it’s great, and I think—yeah. Yeah. We—I mean, it’s…great. And I’m so glad that it’s working. And I totally understand the mixed feeling thing, because, like, I—it touches on that nerve of, “I should be able to do it all. I should be able to do this all!” Or, “I should be living somewhere where I’ve got a million family members and we’re all, like, working together.”
theresa
									
[Biz emphatically agrees with Theresa throughout.] Yeah! Or if I can’t just, like, be a full-time mom and do everything myself, I should really be working full-time! Like, I should really be, like, doing something—I mean, it’s really—
biz
									
[Theresa agrees with Biz throughout.] I only deserve this if I’m suffering to the, like, utmost degree. As opposed to…Nope! All of this is hard. My circumstances require additional help, and I’m gonna get it. Because you know what? Guys? We don’t fucking have to be drowning all the time. So…you know. Get a lifeguard up in here!
theresa
									
How are you, Biz?
biz
									
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] I’m…fine. [Both laugh.] My children are just getting older. And…Katy Belle is really getting older. And, you know, I just…I love it, and I also—it also brings up a remarkable amount of old luggage for me. And that’s not something I necessarily need to get into right now, because I don’t wanna create even more anxiety—I mean, I already have my own anxiety, I don’t need to be, like, ‘Well this is what I’m thinking about all the time!” [Laughs.] But…you’re welcome! But she walks into the kitchen yesterday, and says, “Uh, when do you think you’re gonna, like, let me—or be okay with me—walking around the neighborhood by myself?” Now, I need to say that we don’t live in, like, a traditional neighborhood. Like, it’s not like a cul-de-sac or, like—I mean, like, we’ve—I mean, it’s—look. It’s a long street that we live on, and at one end it’s like a major street. Lot of business, a lot of traffic, you know, I mean, it is—it’s not like a neighborhood street, it’s like a real business, going-down-a-hill-driving street. The other way, it’s a normal street. I mean, you’ve got, like, a couple of layers of blocks of houses. Right? And I—I do like pretty much—I mean, it’s a nice street. I’m familiar with most of the people on it, and I said, “Mmmmmm…okay? Do you think you’re ready.” And she was like, “Yes.” And I said, “Where do you want to walk?”
theresa
									
[Laughing] This was my question immediately. What’s the—yeah. Yeah.
biz
									
[Theresa agrees with Biz throughout.] Yeah. Where is it that you want to go? And she said, “I would like to just go up and down our street.” It’s a long street, guys. I mean, you know, it’s a super long street. Um, and I said “Okay, up to the green house,” because then we actually have some businesses that kind of catty-corner on our street? I said, “Alright. Stefan, are you okay with Katy Belle doing a walk on her own?” He says, “Yeah!” Sweet. And I was like, “Okay, I am too. I would like you to stop at the house. Remember, that’s where so-and-so lives and they’ve got a child and blah blah blah, that’s where I’d like you to stop. It’s almost to the end of the street.” And she’s like, “I don’t even really wanna cross the street. I’m just gonna come back on the same street.” I said okay. And then I proceeded to do all the insane things that I—because I am who I am and I’m my mother’s daughter—“If somebody drives up with puppies, what do you do?” “Don’t see the puppies.” “Exactly! Do not go look at puppies, Katy Belle." Like, just reminded her—‘cause we don’t live in a neighborhood like I grew up in where you really interacted with your neighbors all the time? But we have enough that I’m like, “Don’t forget! Remember they’ve got kids at that house, they’ve got kids at that house, we know them from Halloween, blah blah blah.” And then I let her go, and then I pulled myself away from the window because at some point I can’t see her, and it was really hard. And she came home, uh, no tattoos or piercings, she just came home like herself. I said, “How was it?” She said, “It was great!” I said, “Okay.” And then, you know, passed out. The point of this story is I think it actually really does tie in nicely to what we’re gonna talk about today? Which is…instinct versus excuse? And…I’m gonna talk a little bit more about that for our topic.
theresa
									
[Banjo strums; cheerful banjo music continues through dialogue.] Please—take a moment to remember: If you’re friends of the hosts of One Bad Mother, you should assume that when we talk about other moms, we’re talking about you.
biz
									
If you are married to the host of One Bad Mother, we definitely are talking about you.
theresa
									
Nothing we say constitutes professional parenting advice.
biz
									
Biz and Theresa’s children are brilliant, lovely, and exceedingly extraordinary.
theresa
									
Nothing said on this podcast about them implies otherwise. [Banjo music fades out.]
biz
									
[Theresa affirms Biz throughout.] Theresa. Instinct…versus excuse. I wanna kind of set this up as what the—I was talking about with Katy Belle. My instinct as her mother is to never let her out of my sight. [Laughs.] Okay? “It’s not that I don’t trust you; I don’t trust the rest of the world.” Right? Like…my instinct is keep her safe at all costs, and—and never let her do anything, like develop into an actual person. [Deep breath.] But then my thought is, is that an excuse for not wanting to run the risk of my child getting hurt? ‘K?
crosstalk
									
Theresa: Right. Like is it—is it a good instinct? It might be your instinct, but, like— Biz: Is it a good instinct? Is that—am I using that in a bad way? Theresa: Is that, like, a—yeah. Yeah, yeah! Yeah.
biz
									
[Theresa interjects repeatedly to agree with Biz.] So…that’s kind of—and—and because maybe it’s just because of her age and where she is, at ten, and it’s just like, a lot of new things are coming—I find myself in this dilemma a great deal. And so I wanna—I—I don’t know if we should just start with, like, basically instinct in general? Or just let this all…interweave itself? What do you think? Or do you just have—
crosstalk
									
Theresa: I mean—I have something to share right off the bat. Biz: Okay. Then let’s do that.
theresa
									
Because I think—this is just hitting me right this second—but, like, I actually think the question is, “Instinct or fear?” Because—for example. I’m gonna give you an example. There is this billboard that somebody put up in my neighborhood, right near my house, like about … three weeks ago. And I’ve seen—I see it every day, and it makes me totally insane and the other day I was in the car with Jesse and we talked about how insane it makes both of us, and it’s basically a baby—it’s like a drawing of a baby drinking out of a bottle that has, like, the prescription label on it? Like, the idea of like a prescription? And then it says, on the billboard, “Your doctor says your baby needs this medicine. But what are your instincts telling you?” [Biz gasps at length.]
crosstalk
									
[Biz agrees with Theresa throughout.] Biz: Wow. Wow. Wow! Theresa: Okay? Yeah. And so—I know! And so…we’re like, is this, like, an anti-vaxxer thing? Biz: Yeah, what is this? You’re trying to figure out— Theresa: But why would they buy a billboard? We’re, like, “Is it Scientologists, maybe?” We’re trying—‘cause, you know, there’s a lot of—there’s a lot of Scientology in Southern California and, like, very anti-medicine, anti-, like, whatever. But—point being—we’re both—like, I’m so upset about this billboard because it just preys on people’s fears. People who—like, maybe you don’t—whatever your level of education, when you have a new baby, it’s fucking scary— Biz: All the time.
theresa
									
—and there’s lots of things that you go to the doctor for that you don’t necessarily understand that your doctor says your baby might need, and the idea that we should all trust our instincts is a really good one? But when is it your instinct versus when is it just your fear because it’s natural to have fear as a human? And like—and like, making decisions based on fear is not always a wise thing! So, like, sure! Maybe it—maybe you’re scared to give medicine to your baby. But, maybe your baby needs this medicine for their health, or to survive or to prevent spread of disease or whatever. And so maybe you just…you just say, “I know my instincts—fear—are telling me this feels bad. But I know better. I know that this is going—this is—I am going to take the risk and do this thing because I know better than my instincts in this situation.” Like, I—
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Biz: The billboard really should just be—in my opinion—all billboards—should be, “Ask questions, get opinions. Understand critical thinking.” [Theresa laughs.] Theresa: Seek out—Yeah. Seek out evidence-based information. Biz: Well, right! And so—ugh. Yeah! I know! Theresa: I know. I—and I know that’s, like, an agree—I just, like, I was excited to have a chance to talk about this billboard that’s been so upsetting to me for weeks? Biz: Yeah! [Laughs wildly.] Oh yeah.
theresa
									
[Biz interjects frequently to agree with Theresa.] But like, that’s—that’s one example. But, like, I think what’s so interesting about the Katy Belle thing is we had a similar thing in our family with, uh, Grace and Oscar wanting to walk, um, less far but still to a part of the road that we couldn’t see. And what I think—I really think it’s, like, almost like how I’ve heard therapists and stuff teach kids about, like, upstairs brain and downstairs brain or something? Where it’s kind of, like, there’s a part of our brain that is, like, really based in just, like, the fight-or-flight fear, like…no! I’m not gonna! No! No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no! Like, self-preservation at all costs; this is giving me a bad feeling, listen to your uh-oh feeling, all that. Listen to your instincts—and then there’s this other part of your brain that’s, like, when you’re calm, when everything is safe—when you feel safe, what information, like, can you use to make a reasonable decision? That is, like, based on reason? Based on reason and logic and information. You know what I mean? Like, when you’re calm. When your emotions are calm. So it’s, like…when I walked into the house and I found out that, like, Jesse was doing this thing with the kids where they got to, like, walk up the thing, there’s a part of me that’s just, like, “Oh my God!” Like, punch in the stomach. You know? Like, I hate this. I hate, hate, hate, hate, hate this. [Biz laughs.] But then I calm down, and I start thinking about this book I read a long time ago called “Blessing of a Skinned Knee”.
crosstalk
									
Theresa: I don’t think we’ve ever had her on the show; but it’s a great book. It’s a really great book! Biz: We’ve never had her on, but we—yeah. We’ve talked about this. Yeah.
theresa
									
And like, there’s a lotta things in this book about kind of like making these…reasoned—reasoned decisions just based on, “Yes! You want your kids to be safe!” If your neighborhood is not a neighborhood where people go out on the street, maybe that’s not a good thing to, like, send your six-year-old out. And let them be the first one to try that out.
biz
									
“Come on, everybody! Let’s all go for a walk!” Yeah.
theresa
									
Yeah! Like, you wanna find out what’s the norm where you live! Like, what are people doing where you live? Like, making these kind of decisions. And then, like, what is…teaching your kid to walk down to the end of the block and walk back gonna do for them as far as, like, independence? And, like you said, critical thinking and like—just like a lot of other skills that that’s building for them. And so like [laughs] then I’m like, yes. That is what I want. So I’m—I’m gonna like, not listen to my instinct. You know what I mean?
biz
									
Yeah! No, I know. And that’s what I did. I mean, I was like, I’m not gonna listen to my instinct…this time. This is such a tricky area. As I was listening to you, because…I think…I’m gonna do some generalizations. Enjoy. I think women are often taught to not listen to their instincts. And I think that men are. “Go with your gut! He went with his gut!” You know? Like—I mean, it’s like, all, you know, the movies are, like—like, I love Star Trek, the original Star Trek with Captain Kirk—there was a lotta “gut” action being—taking place that put a lot of people’s lives in danger, all the time. But everybody’s like, “You’re the best!” Women can’t possibly be a captain of anything because of—[unhinged noise] Woooooo!
theresa
									
Because of periods.
biz
									
[Theresa agrees with Biz throughout.] Periods. Don’t trust your instincts—you’re having your period! [Cackles wildly.] Anyhoo. And…I definitely want my kids to trust their instincts when they have them. That involves them going out and being put in situations in which they have to listen to their instincts. And yet…at the same time, there are times when we have to…not listen to our instincts! And I think it’s a—I think it’s like a really tricky place because I do think there are some instincts that…are very natural, that we always go, “I know; my instinct it that they’re tired. They’re hungry.” You know? Or…my instinct is that, you know, for several years my child never, you know, goes to bed at a certain time and if I take them out somewhere, at that time, and not let them sleep, it’s—it’s not gonna go well!
theresa
									
Or, like, with classes. Like, my instinct is…joining the basketball team is gonna be too much for my kid right now. Like, they’re not ready. [Theresa agrees emphatically with Biz several times as Biz speaks.]
biz
									
Well…yeah! My instinct is, “No! We’re not gonna sign up for a bunch of extracurricular stuff because you will get bored and stop!” Now! See, but that’s where it borders—to me—less fear, more excuse. Like, nothin’s gonna—bad’s gonna happen at, you know. Tennis. Right? But, like…I don’t wanna be, like, don’t know if I can do it! [Laughs.]
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Theresa: Or just, like—or just like how bad is it gonna be? Biz: How bad, yeah! Drive, and—what am I gonna do with my other child while that one’s doing it? Theresa: If, like, if it’s—if it just means, like, “Oh, I have to, like, talk to the coach and, like, work out a plan and encourage my kid to do it when they don’t want to, and”—yeah. Yeah.
biz
									
Yeah. See, now that I think is more of the, like, excuse. To go back to my point about the fact that I think we are trained not to listen to our instinct, and—that goes so strangely along with the fear-based culture that we live in in this country? We live in a culture that is scaring you from billboards to the news to, you know, magazines. I mean, everywhere you go it’s—“Somebody’s out to get you.” To think that there’s been so much—
crosstalk
									
Theresa: They’re just not safe anywhere. They’re not safe anywhere. Yeah. Yeah. Biz: They’re not safe anywhere.
biz
									
And that leads me back to the—will I let Katy Belle go walk down the street? And so much of it is not about her and the fact that she is 100% capable; she wasn’t capable a year ago. I wouldn’t have let her do it a year ago. But she has shown me things that make me think she’s ready for this. It’s all about me. And my—I—I need to start trusting the instinct that says, “She actually has this.” Right? Like, not all my instincts should be fear-based! Some of my instincts should be, “Can she handle this?” You know? And—I—I think those are also valid instincts but I don’t think we treat them the—to the same degree as “The world is out to get us.” Right?
theresa
									
[Biz agrees emphatically with Theresa throughout.] Right. Well, I mean—yeah! And I also think that when we’re setting our kids out in the world, like, obviously, where she’s at and—and what she can handle is a big part of, like, what you’re imagining—what you’re thinking about in your head when you’re making that decision. But it’s also, like—we know that there’s some risk involved in every single thing that we do, all the time? And so the question is: is the risk, like, so big—so great—that it makes sense never letting my kid walk [laughs] down the street? And you—like, you know what I mean? Like, we’re kind of, like, doing that in our minds, like, “I guess there’s a chance something could go horribly wrong;” but it’s also—our lives will also go horribly wrong for sure if we can’t ever go anywhere. Like—[breaks off, laughing.] [Biz cackles.] You know what I mean? Like—there’s a little of that, like, letting go.
biz
									
Yeah. [Sigh.] Which is what, I think, the whole thing about instinct and excuses and all of that is about. And I think, obviously it all depends on where you live, who your kids are, you know.
crosstalk
									
Theresa: Yeah! And all the situations are different. All the possible…yeah. Biz: And all the situations are 100% different. Me letting my kid out does not mean you should go let your kid out—I like that I’m saying that as if they’re all shut away. Theresa: They’re caged up. Biz: They’re caged up. Eh, don’t let ‘em out! [Laughs.] Theresa: Curtis has started referring to his crib as a cage, by the way. Biz: Oooooh! Theresa: He’s like, “It’s a cage!” I’m like, okay. [Laughs.] [Biz cackles.] Biz: Yup. And you’re all locked up for the night. G’night!
biz
									
But like, I—I really—because I feel like a pre-kid moment would easily be for me to be, like, “Let yo’ fuckin’ child go out of the house.” Right? Like, you know what I mean? Like—and suddenly having kids in your house I think ramps up that fear and it’s not just the fear-based society that we live in where they’re feeding us this fear all the time; it’s also the “I’m gonna be judged by the neighbors if they see my child by herself, walking down the street.” Or, uh, “I’m gonna be…” y’know, “I’m gonna get arrested for letting my kid walk through the library.” You know what I mean? Like…that’s—
theresa
									
Those are all real. Those are actually on top of what I thought you were gonna say, which is—just, when you have a kid, that’s a new feeling of physical…like, fear and need to be close to that person to keep them safe all the time? Which is something I think we don’t—we—we can imagine maybe before we have our own kids, or maybe some of us have felt that way about, like, pets or siblings or whatever? But, like, imagining, like, “Oh, I’m gonna let my kid do stuff” becomes really different once you know that kid and they are your kid and you’re feeling—I mean, it’s—I feel like it’s a real physical thing!
biz
									
I do, too! And—and you have to, like, this is the impossible-ness of it. That is, not allowing yourself to walk through the world at that heightened “worst case.” And…occasionally I do go there. And I get so, like, physically and mentally overwhelmed by that. That I don’t think I could live that way. Like, I—I have to go to therapy. I have to talk about it. I have to say “These are my experiences and when I see my children, all I can think about is it happening to them.” Right? And, like…I can’t live there. I mean, that—I—I—
crosstalk
									
Theresa: That’s just, like, debilitating anxiety. It really is. Biz: It’s—it’s debilitating anxiety. Yeah!
biz
									
And so…I don’t think we can’t not acknowledge that. Right? Like, no one is saying at you, [threatening voice] “You shouldn’t trust your instinct!” And like, you’re right? Like—
theresa
									
Yeah. I think that it’s—I think that you’re right. That listening to our instincts is, like—it’s a gift to have our instincts? And I think that…it’s also okay to be…like, a little…interested? In what—where our instinct—instinctual feelings are telling us and why we’re having those feelings? And sometimes we can’t do that in the moment; we just have to act, obviously. But, like, I think later it’s worth thinking it through. Like, I’m just thinking about—thinking back to when Gracie was a new baby, and I couldn’t physically imagine leaving her. With anyone. Ever. Not even for like an hour. There was a time where Jesse’s stepmom, like, took her out of the house for a little walk outside for seriously, like, they were maybe gone for ten minutes and I lost my mind. And I went looking for them. And this is, like, a woman who, like, a mother! Like, I mean, you know—like, I—it was completely fine. I physically couldn’t be apart from my baby. And looking back on that, I’m like, oh. I was having really severe anxiety! Like, really severe anxiety! At the time, I was just, like, “This is just what it is.” I wasn’t— [Biz laughs.] —-you know, I wasn’t able to make that, you know, connection! I just needed to physically be with my baby at all times. And I think that is fine, that I was doing that. But I also think, possibly, I could’ve benefitted from getting some help at that time with managing that. Because it is really hard to live in that place at all, like, all the time. Around the clock.
biz
									
Yeah! Well, I think… [laughs] I think that actually is kind of a reasonable place to wrap up and say, we’ve been talking about our instincts towards our children. But are we listening to the instincts for ourselves? Are we listening when our instincts says, “This might not be right.” Uh, or—“Yeah! Maybe you are drowning!” Or…you do need help.
theresa
									
Maybe I’m not okay. Yeah.
biz
									
Or maybe I’m not okay. And we just miss that little voice all the time. All the time! I can’t hear that voice! I’m too worried about… [panicked voice] aliens taking my children ‘cause I read that damn book! Right? [Theresa laughs quietly.] [Normal voice] Like it’s—maybe—maybe that’s also a voice we should be trusting even more and giving the same weight, uh, ‘cause it might help clarify all our instincts that come later. Ha! Weird! [Both laugh wildly.] I don’t trust any of it.
music
									
“Ones & Zeroes” by Awesome off the album Beehive Sessions begins playing. Steady, driving electric guitar with drum and woodwinds. [Music fades out.]
biz
									
[Chill acoustic guitar continues through dialogue.] One Bad Mother is supported in part by Michelin Tires. [Screeching noise, like slamming car brakes.] “Honk, honk!” [Laughs.]
theresa
									
Parents, we’ve all been there. You’re driving down the road, your kids are napping in the backseat, you’re thinking about what to make for dinner. When suddenly, another car swerves in front of you.
biz
									
“JACKASS!” [Giggles.]
theresa
									
You slam on your brakes, and for a split-second, you’re terrified whether you’ll stop in time. You want tires that perform well with every stop, and that’s where Michelin comes in. When worn Michelin Premier All-Season Tires come to a complete stop, some other worn tires are still traveling over 15 miles per hour.
biz
									
So next time, when you’re looking for new tires for the family tire, consider Michelin Premier All-Season Tires. Michelin: Performance Every Time. [Music fades out.]
theresa
									
Hey, you know what it’s time for: this week’s genius and fails! This is the part of the show where we share our genius moment of the week, as well as our failures, and feel better about ourselves by hearing yours. You can share some of your own by calling 206-350-9485. That’s 206-350-9485.
biz
									
Theresa—genius/fail time. Genius me!
biz
									
Wow. Oh my God! Oh my God! I saw what you did. Oh my God! I’m paying attention! Wow. You, mom, are a genius. Oh my God, that’s fucking genius.
theresa
									
[Biz affirms and admires Theresa throughout.] Okay. So. I’ve been eyeing the car line drop-off— [Biz laughs wildly.] —[through laughter] Since the beginning of the school year. And, you know, Oscar’s in kindergarten; I didn’t want to push it, but I can tell, that, like—he could—like we walk in and we talk about it. I’m like, “See the kids? Doing the thing?” And, like, when we walk to his classroom he leads the way; he knows where to, like, put his stuff away and all that. And so I did mention a couple times, like, “You could…you could do this.” And then the other day—it was last week, we were driving to school, and he asked if he could do it, and I said, “Yes!” And he was, like, “Great!” And he was excited, and it took a couple mornings to get smooth, but he’s now doing it and what’s so genius about this is not only that, like, I don’t have to get Curtis out of the car and the stroller and what—you know, find parking and walk all the way in and blah blah blah blah blah, but also…this saves me so much time that now I get Curtis to preschool in time for their car line drop-off, which they have at his preschool until 8:30! So dropping off Oscar with car line drop-off makes me on time by—I get him—I get Curtis to preschool by like, 8:20, and he does the—I just pull through the thing and they take him out of the car with his lunchbox and his water and they—I sign—they hand me the clipboard, I sign him in, and I’m not kidding. Not having to walk two kids in in the morning? I—that was, like, 45 minutes that I now have back to my life.
crosstalk
									
Biz: Oh, wow. Theresa: I know! Biz: The time! From not having to go to two— Theresa: The time! It’s so much time. Biz: It’s so—it’s like, an impactful on your brain time! Theresa: Yeah! Biz: Wow. Good job. Theresa: Yeah. Thank you. Biz: Livin’ the car line dream! [Theresa laughs.]
crosstalk
									
Biz: [Singing] IIIIIII—went on a date night! With my husband! Theresa: Aww. Biz: We really haven’t done that in…I cannot… remember? The last date night? And, plus, we went with some friends, our very good friends, and so we just got to have really a nice, fun, time out. As peoples. Theresa: Good. Oh good. Good job. Biz: It was! It was good.
caller
									
[Machine beeps.] Hi! I’m calling with a genius. I am walking home from the grocery store right now, and carrying a bunch of, like, two different kinds of milk and, like, the huge box of Cheerios and like, avocados and bananas and all this stuff. And, um, I also bought myself some oatmeal raisin cookies! Because I’m always saying that I’m not gonna eat sugar and then we have, like, this dark chocolate peppermint bark—I mean, pretzel bark—I would like peppermint. [Biz laughs throughout.] Pretzel bark that my kid eats as her, like, treats all the time, and I’m the one who’s in charge of hiding it because I don’t like chocolate and if my husband finds it he’ll eat all of it, so he tells me to hide it; and if she sees it she’ll start whining so I have to hide it—and then I end up eating it because…I don’t like chocolate, but I do like sugar, and it’s so often found in our house in chocolate form. And the cookies that I don’t eat for myself ends up just being this chocolate that I don’t want anyways. So I just bought myself some oatmeal raisin cookies. And I’m gonna eat one when I get home and then I’ll put the rest in the freezer and I’m not gonna eat any chocolate pretzel bark or chocolate anything. Um, thanks! You’re doing a great job! Okay. Bye. [Biz laughs delightedly.]
biz
									
[Theresa agrees with Biz throughout.] I…love this so much. There’s another genius, besides getting yourself a treat that you will actually like and you will eat? I really like that. But I also like that you found the ultimate hiding place for the chocolate from your family. You want this—I just like the idea that this woman is in a house where, like, her husband’s, like, [imitation of a desperate manly voice] “You gotta hide it!” I’m like, her kids, she knows—I’ve done that, the hiding ‘cause the kids see—if—it’ll just be a whole thing. Like [desperate manly voice again] “Nooo I’m just gonna eat it! Nom nom nom. All gone! All gone!” Like, I just imagine mothers and fathers everywhere, where like, kids are like [screeching whiny voice] “I want this! I want that!” [Regular voice] And then just, like, shoveling it in their mouth right in front of them. “All gone! Now nobody gets the donut!” Right? Like…anyway. I just…I just love this call. Because she just sounds like where my brain is all the time. [Cackles.]
crosstalk
									
Theresa: You mean, like, overthinking the strangest small things? Biz: Over—“where are we going? What’s—why is this a concern?” It is! Theresa: “I’m gonna figure this out somehow.” Biz: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. You are doing a great job. Theresa: Yeah, you are! Biz: Love it.
biz
									
Failures.
clip
									
[Dramatic music in background.] Theresa: Fail. Fail. Fail. FAIL! [Drum.] Biz: [Calmly] You suck!
biz
									
Fail me, Theresa!
theresa
									
[Biz agrees with Theresa throughout.] Okay. Well, so, I mentioned the car line thing in my genius and I also mentioned that it took a couple days to get the hang of it. So… on the [breaks off, laughing]— [Biz cracks up.] —one of those days, we were running late and he ended up having to go to the office and get a late slip to walk into kindergarten with? And I asked him about it later because I was a little concerned, like, “Oh, how was that? Was that, like, kind of, like, upsetting or hard or anything?” And he’s like, “No mommy, it was really fun!” And I was, like, “Oh.” And he’s like, “Can I get a late slip again tomorrow?” And I was like, “No. No. It’s not good to have a late slip. They—that—they want you to be on time.” And he’s like, “It’s like a ticket to get into class!” He was, like, way into being late. [Laughs.]
crosstalk
									
Biz: Great. Great. [Cackles.] Theresa: I know.
biz
									
Well…good luck with that.
theresa
									
Yeah, I don’t know.
biz
									
[Theresa agrees with Biz throughout.] I…went to the grocery store to pick up some things on a weekday. That’s nice. The next day, I was getting ready to take everybody to school and I picked up my purse and I thought, “This feels…light.” And I look in it, and my wallet is not there. And I’m like, “Where did I take my wallet out?” And then I can’t remember what I did the day before—like, I was getting the Monday and the Tuesday different errands I’d done very confused. And then I was, like, “Oh, I did go to the store ‘cause now there’s this fruit in the house that wasn’t there Monday”— [Theresa laughs.] —“so I must have gone to this store…did I? Leave this?” I call the store, and they have the wallet. So I go to get the wallet, and I’m thinking—I left it on the—like, the counter when I was checking out. The guy was like, “Oh yeah. I remember this. You left this yesterday!” As if—I’m so surprised that I wasn’t right back. I’m like, “I—I’m not spending 24 hours a day,” you know what I mean? And, uh, he goes, “Yeah. The woman who brought it back in was so nice.” And I said, “…Brought it in?” I had left it, like, in the grocery cart.
crosstalk
									
Theresa: Oh wow. Biz: I don’t even know how I would have done that? I mean, that’s like not— Theresa: Or maybe it fell off your car? No? Would you have set it on the roof of your car? Biz: No! I usually put everything in my gigantic bag. Theresa: Yeah. Maybe it just fell. Biz: Yeah. Maybe I’m just losing my mind. Theresa: That’s terrible. Biz: It was! Yeah. It is. Theresa: I’m so sorry. Very disorienting—like, that’s a double fail, ‘cause it’s the—losing—leaving your wallet but then also, like, not being able to figure out how it happened so you can avoid it in the future? Biz: It’s the only thing I did that day that involved my wallet. [Laughs.] Ugh. Theresa: Sorry. Biz: Eh, well.
caller
									
[Answering machine beeps.] Hi, Biz and Theresa! This is a fail. I want to preface this by saying I did everything in my power to make it a genius. [Biz giggles.] I’m a lawyer, and I knew that this morning I would have to be in court extra-early at a courthouse further away than normal, so I knew that the—getting my baby and toddler out the door to preschool was going to have to be planned with the precision of an expedition to the South Pole. It’s also Picture Day. So I laid out all of their outfits last night; I put their sheets in the car; the baby needed diapers and wipes for the second time in a row because I forgot yesterday; uh, I put those in my car. Today is swimming. Swimming means, in the evening, means that we usually have a Crockpot dinner but we wouldn’t have time this morning, so I made a pasta salad last night! I wake up this morning with my alarm at 5:15; I didn’t hit “Snooze,” I didn’t roll over, I got up, I got showered, I’m pumped, I had a breakfast that I only got to eat half of because my toddler wanted it— [Biz laughs quietly.] —and when you’re in a rush it’s not really fun to talk about “being a ‘self.’” Everything was going great. I had my baby’s homemade baby food with the apples and the mangoes and the blackberries uh, sitting there, all dressed for court, feeding my baby his delicious, healthy, homemade baby food with blackberries that is now dark purple, and he kicks the bowl. And the bowl falls. And I catch it with my knee, all over my pants. I had planned for everything, but I had not planned for that! So I had to go upstairs and change and remove blackberries, and—One Bad Mother, I have to admit, I fed my baby off some of the puree that landed on my knee, because that was a lot of work and he was very hungry. [Hosts laugh quietly.] So…despite my best efforts, like Icarus I flew too close to the sun— [Biz cackles.] —and…I failed. I’m doing a horrible job. [Laughs.] [Biz cackles louder.]
biz
									
[Singing] Somebody’s got the bar too high! If you—okay. Look. You are actually doing a remarkable job. You’ve got a lot of things done. Uh, I am—like, I am a person like that. I like to try and make sure I’ve got everything planned, especially on the—she’s, like, “Yeah! It’s like going out for an expedition.” Right? You’ve gotta, like, not just what you need walkin’ out the door but what you need at 3, what you need at 5, what you need when you get home. Like, sometimes—especially when you’re working, you gotta get that all laid out. And…then, you get covered in blackberry sauce. And that makes it feel like all the other work you’ve done is garbage? And—it doesn’t. The blackberries did not negate all the amazing work; it was just—like everything in life—one of those special moments that shows you nothing will ever go right. [Laughs wildly.]
music
									
“Mom Song” by Adira Amram off the album Hot Jams for Teens begins playing. Mellow piano music. You are the greatest mom I’ve ever known I love you, I love you When I have a problem, I call you on the phone I love you, I love you [Music fades out.]
theresa
									
[Jazzy piano music begins, continues through dialogue.] One Bad Mother is supported in part by Mathnasium.
biz
									
Surprise! Your kids are back in school, and there’s gonna be math! [Laughs wildly.] [Theresa giggles.] I…was very smug at the end of last year, because Katy Belle had been enjoying the math. I decided to try Mathnasium over the summer; we walked through the doors, she took their assessment—surprise! She had forgotten everything. [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.] I was like, “What?! What do you mean you don’t—really?! You don’t remember how to do that?”
theresa
									
Mathnasium’s expert instructors make learning about math fun, with customized learning plans and face-to-face instruction. And they can also help with homework. So start this schoolyear off right; schedule an assessment with Mathnasium today. It’s risk-free. We have a special URL and phone number just for our listeners. So go to Mathnasium.com/obm, or call 855-354-MATH. That’s Mathnasium.com/obm, or call 855-354-MATH. [Jazz piano fades out.]
biz
									
Hey, Theresa! Let’s call someone today!
music
									
[Up-tempo acoustic guitar with choral “ahhs” in background.]
biz
									
This week we are talking to Carla Naumburg, PhD, who is a writer, speaker, and clinical social worker. She is the author of three parenting books, the bestselling How to Stop Losing Your Shit with Your Kids; Ready, Set, Breathe: Practicing Mindfulness with Your Children for Fewer Meltdowns and a More Peaceful Family; and Parenting in the Present Moment: How to Stay Focused on What Really Matters. Carla has appeared in the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Huffington Post, CNN, and Mindful Magazine, among other places. She has also been on One Bad Mother previously, on Episode 181. We are so happy to have you back, Carla!
carla naumburg
									
Hello! I’m so glad to be here!
biz
									
I—okay. I—before we get in to all the things that I want to ask you, I’m gonna, just—start off with what we always ask, just in case it’s changed: Who lives in your house?
carla, with biz
									
Carla: My husband, and me, and our two daughters who are nine years old and almost eleven; and God help me if I call that kid ten years old ‘cause she’s “almost eleven.” Biz: I know! Yeah! Carla: Um, and two crazy cats.
biz
									
Okay. Nine and eleven? That’s… something. [Theresa laughs.]
crosstalk
									
Carla: Yeah. That’s, like, tween years. I’ve got a kid who stands in front of the mirror— [Biz sighs.] Carla: —and practices rolling her eyes. Biz: Yeah. There ya go. That’s it. That’s pretty good. [Theresa laughs.] Theresa: That…is amazing. That’s perfect. Carla: Yeah. Pretty advanced stuff right there. Mm-hm. Biz: Yeah, that’s some classic—I—would make me lose my shit! Which ties in nicely! So—here we go. [Carla and Theresa laugh.]
biz
									
What I like so much about having you back is that when you were here last, we talked about mindfulness. You spoke— [breaks off, laughing] you spoke about how to be mindful, using meditation, how to keep it together. And I really appreciate that your new book cuts directly to the chase, and just flat-out acknowledges that we’re all losing our shit all the time. [Through laughter] It’s like—"Fuck it! We are losing our shit.” How did you find yourself in this new, even-more direct place with this book? [Giggles.]
carla
									
[Biz and Theresa affirm Carla throughout.] You know, I really have to pay homage to all of the authors who came before me and had the bravery and the tenacity to use profanity in their books. [Biz cackles.] And then their books went on the New York Times Bestseller List and people—if you go out and buy mine, maybe mine will too!—but if you look, on the New York Times Bestseller List for “Advice; How-To; Miscellaneous,” there’s all these books with curse words in the title! And when I saw that, I was like, “Well, shit! I can do that!” [Biz laughs loudly.] And—literally like two days later, the title of this book came to me, interestingly enough when I was not with my children; my husband and I had left them with their grandparents for my birthday weekend. We were off hiking, just the adults, and all of a sudden I was like, “I know my next book. There it is.”
crosstalk
									
Biz: Yeah. Isn’t that weird that when we actually have, uh, some space to think and use our brain? Those little things rattle around in there and pop out? Carla: It’s amazing. Theresa: Oh, you had—you had ideas! ‘Cause there weren’t kids there needing things from you! [Biz laughs wildly.] Carla: That’s right. I could actually think about something other than “Why have you not freaking tied your shoelaces yet, child.” [Theresa giggles.] Biz: Yeah! Okay.
biz, with carla
									
I think this is actually really interesting, this idea of the—why people are responding to books that swear, versus the not-swearing books. And I do— [Theresa cracks up.] —wonder if it’s because—I mean, look. I—I think—and I’m sure you have come across this, given your writings, but, like, self-care and mindfulness are phrases that, as of right now, we hear a lot. I mean, these are what— Carla: Oh, yeah. —once was, kind of, a new way of talking about it; now, it—it’s everywhere. And, for some people [giggles disingenuously] not—not me; I have a friend? When they hear these things, like “Be more mindful,” you know, “Be more present,” and, “Where is your self-care?” it—it makes them—my friend—more anxious! And…[sighs] I’m wondering if—if that’s why, when somebody just lays it flat-out, like, “Stop losing your shit; how can we stop doing this?” if that is more relatable than—if it feels more forgiving than us feeling like we have to take on a—yet another responsibility to get through it. I guess I wanna…have you remind us how you understand “self-care.”
carla
									
[Biz and Theresa agree repeatedly with Carla throughout.] Oh, yeah. Look. I’m—I’m with you on everything you said. And my first two books had a very different tone; there was no profanity; you know, it was—they were written in the style of more traditional parenting books because I thought that was how we had to write! But for anybody who spends time with me, that’s not how I talk. Right? [Biz laughs appreciatively.] That’s not how I am in my daily life; I’m like, “Mm, hand me a Diet Coke; I’m gonna go watch NCIS and yell at my kids.” [Biz laughs louder.] And I was—you know, but I was like trying really hard not to. Right? So my goal—my—my attempts to not lose my shit with my kids are what led me to mindfulness. And I’m not gonna lie to you; like, the—some of the practices in this book, they’re actually based on mindfulness but I try not to use the “m” word, ‘cause I realize for some people, they kind of have a reaction to “mindfulness” like I feel about kale—like, every time I eat kale I guess this terrible taste in my mouth? [Biz chuckles.]
crosstalk
									
Theresa: It’s the kale. Biz: It’s the kale. [Laughs wildly.] Carla: I don’t wanna do it. Don’t talk to me about kale; don’t talk to me about vegetable stuff. Okay.
carla
									
[Theresa and Biz continue agreeing emphatically with Carla.] So. Here’s how I talked about self-care in the book, because I realize that’s a phrase that leaves a lot of us feeling kinda twitchy and pissed-off. Is—I call it “shit you have to do if you don’t wanna lose your shit with your kids.” So, like, I’m not saying you should train for a marathon or go to a salon and get a pedicure every week unless those activities legit work for you. I’m just saying—there are certain things that, sadly, the truth is, now that we’re adults we have to just sort of suck it up and acknowledge. There are some things we have to do if we want to be functional human beings who aren’t exploding every time our kids walk in the room, and—you know, this isn’t rocket science. It’s not like I came up with anything that nobody’s ever thought of before. [Biz giggles.] I’m talking about getting some sleep. And moving your body. And…like, spending time with people who are supportive and don’t make you feel like shit about yourself and your parenting.
crosstalk
									
Biz: Isn’t that—isn’t that a good one? That’s a good one. Theresa: Yeah. That’s a really good one. Carla: Yeah. Biz: I don’t think we—because—when you—and now I’m derailing us. But that’s such a good one because…we are surrounded in social media— Carla: Ugh. [Carla agrees with Biz as Biz speaks.]
biz
									
—with…people making us feel like shit, whether they’re doing it intentionally or not! But, you know, we talk on the show all the time about the idea that, like, there’s all this pressure when it comes to making the right choices for our specific family, and it can feel like other people are doing it at you, or that other people’s choices are at you, or saying that you’re wrong—I mean, like, it’s—wow. What could’ve been a really cool, [laughs] supportive tool in our lives, I think, you know, it’s easy to find ourselves in those positions! Where…people are making us feel bad! And—yeah! I think that goes—you’re right!—hand-in-hand with the overtired, y’know, overhungry, over-everything. [Biz agrees with Carla throughout.]
carla
									
Absolutely! And look, we all have days. You know. Right now, as I’m recording this, my two kids are downstairs staring at their iPads ‘cause we’re all home having a sick day. We all have these days where we are tired. We’re sick. We’re stressed about work. Like, that’s never going to end? So we just have to—the difference is, we have to recognize those days when we’re triggered. When our buttons are lit up, when they’re super-sensitive and pushable; and, you know, we acknowledge it, and then we make some changes. You know, there were things that I was like—I’m—there’s a bunch of shit I’m just not gonna get done today! The podcast? I will get that done. I will put my kids in front of their screens; but all these other things, I’m not gonna get it done. And, you know, so that’s—you know, those are some triggers. Being exhausted, being sick, having kids home when they’re supposed to be at school; but you mentioned social media, which is a huge trigger for many of us! Because we see advice that we feel like we should follow, but it doesn’t really work for our family or it’s not possible because we don’t have a full-time nanny or a parenting partner or whatever. Or, for me, you know, we all have our trigger pictures. For me, for some reason whenever I see a picture of a smiling mother at the end of a marathon— [Biz cackles gleefully.] —and she’s all sweaty and happy with the—like, medal around her neck and she’s got her arms around her two kids, I just fall apart. Like, I am so triggered. I am terrible; everything in my life is awful; everybody in the world is basically a Gwyneth Paltrow mother except me. Like, that’s where my brain goes. They’re all having fish delivered to their house.
crosstalk
									
Biz: Right. Thank God for fish delivery. [Facetiously] You don’t? [Laughs.] You don’t?! Carla: I know—don’t we all do that? Like—no. 
carla
									
And—and—so I—but I can’t tell you how many conversations I have with moms—either my friends or the clients I work with—where I’m like, “Why can’t you unfriend this person? Why can’t you unfollow them? Like, they won’t notice!” Especially with, like, some mega-celebrity. Psh. And yet, for so many people, it is hard to let go of that. For some reason it feels like this conversation, we need to be in, and I’m like, “No, no. If every time you show up for the conversation you end up feeling like shit, just don’t go there anymore. Please. Do not.”
crosstalk
									
[Carla agrees with Biz sporadically.] Biz: So…where you were talking about triggers, and [low laugh] for me? It’s the Pottery Barn Catalog. [Laughs.] I’m just like [dramatically] “Why doesn’t my house look like this?” Theresa: Mm-hm. Carla: Wait, you don’t have a white couch? I don’t understand. [Theresa chuckles quietly.] Biz: I know. I don’t understand. Everything’s not perfect. So…we are talking about triggers; now, how do we…get through them? I mean—‘cause—if—if we’re—if we allow ourself to be constantly triggered or if we accidentally walk into one—that happens a lot—oops! I just walked into that! How dare you deliver mail to my house! Theresa: But even sometimes when, I mean, know that something is gonna be triggering but it’s just something we have to do? Biz: Have to do. Like I have to go to the—yeah, how do we give our brains—right! Carla: Yeah. Theresa: How do we—how do we fix that? Like…yeah. Biz: Like, I don’t wanna go to that school meeting! It’s gonna trigger me like a crazy person! But I have to because of X, Y, and Z! So yeah! How do—yeah! How do we do that? Huh?! How do we fix that?! [Laughs.] Theresa: Have to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah! [Laughs.]
carla
									
[Biz and Theresa agree with Carla throughout.] So, that is—you guys pretty much just nailed, like, the best definition of adulting I’ve ever heard. [Biz and Theresa laugh wildly.] We have to do all this stuff but we don’t wanna do it. Um, look, just to be very clear, when I use the word “trigger” in the context of this book, I—I define it— I get super clinical and all psychologyzy on you guys. I define a “trigger” as anything that makes it more likely that you’re gonna lose your shit with your kids.
crosstalk
									
Biz: Right. That—I think that is fair, because there are lots of other triggers out there in the world. And so I—yeah. Theresa: Yep. Sounds good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
crosstalk
									
Carla: Yeah. I hope that wasn’t, you know, too fancy-pants for you. So… [Biz laughs.] Carla: And a lot of people out there might be, like, “Oh, well, easy! Biggest trigger, number one trigger: my actual children.” Right? [Biz laughs raucously; Theresa “Mmms” knowingly.] Biz: Right. Theresa: Damn. Carla: If I did not have them, I would not be losing my shit. [Biz laughs harder.] Biz: She’s reading my diary. Carla: Okay? Totally makes sense, but not super helpful, because the kids are still around. So unless you’re legit prepared to send them off to boarding school, we need a different way to think about this. So in the book, what I say is that triggers are these things that happen in our life; and it could be exhaustion or chronic pain or…you know, how are we going to pay the rent this month, or some snarky comment from another mom that it’s, like, [startled noise] did she mean that? Did she not? What the hell. Um…social media can be a huge trigger. So these triggers make our buttons all big and bright and red and sensitive, super pushable— [Biz cackles.] Carla: —and whenever a kid is around and sees a button, they’re gonna push the crap out of it! It’s just what they do!
biz
									
Ohmygod I love you. [Laughs.]
carla
									
Right? So I want you guys to think about your kids as little button-pushers. [Biz giggles.] And our job is to take care of ourselves so our buttons get smaller and dimmer and harder to push. So we can stay calm when they’re, like, “Hey, it’s 10:00 and my science project’s due tomorrow! Haha, didn’t tell you before!” Right? We’re not gonna lose it.
biz
									
Huh. How do I make my buttons smaller? [Laughs.] [Biz agrees emphatically as Carla speaks.]
carla
									
That’s right! So you guys asked this amazing question: what do we do when we know we have to go to a trigger situation? We’re gonna end up in one. Well, first of all, just…avoid the one you can, right? Which a lot of us don’t do—especially women. I will be honest, this is a boundary issue; and we women are not as good at saying no! So you know, you don’t have to say “yes” just because you can. Right? Just ‘cause you can do something doesn’t mean you have to. Um, but when you are going to a situation that you know you’re gonna be triggered, can you, like, acknowledge that and then prepare for it? So I’ll give you an example. Once a summer, at my kid’s summer camp, they have like this parent festival family night and it’s…hell. Right? [Biz laughs though next several seconds of dialogue.] It’s, like, all hot, and the kids are, like, nagging you for money to buy the stupid tickets so they can do dumb activities, and, like, I don’t know any of the parents ‘cause my husband had—couldn’t come ‘cause he had to go to, like, work so we earn money to pay the mortgage— —and, like, I’m tired after a long day.  I don’t wanna deal with this. The food is disgusting, it’s all over—whatever. So, I was like, “Okay, here’s the deal, girls. We can go, but I’m—I’m checking out. Like, I’m gonna show up, get—give you your tickets, get you your dinner, and then I’m gonna sit in the corner and read a book.” Like, I’m gonna be antisocial mom. I’m not walking around watching you throw, like, water balloons at each other or whatever. I don’t wanna socialize with parents I don’t know; I have my book, I’m gonna—and they were like, “Okay.” ‘Cause what do they care? They want to go off and do the dumb activities! So at first I felt like kind of a loser! I won’t lie, I was like, “Oh my gosh, all these other parents know people; they’re chatty-chatty,” but I was like, “Whatever. I’m out.” So I found a little place in the corner and I pull out my murder mystery and I sit down and you know what happened? Like, ten minutes later this other mother shows up and sits down next to me with her book.
carla
									
Now, don’t get me wrong. She was legitimately reading, like, the history of Shakespeare and I’m reading like a murder mystery and I was like, okay, whatever, we are not the same planet but you are still my people so sit on down, honeybunch. [Biz laughs appreciatively.] Um, and so, like, where in those situations can you find little ways to take care of yourself? Right? And I—like, it’s not like I had a super great time at this thing, but my kids had fun, I felt good for taking them, and at the end of the event I wasn’t all triggered and pissed off!
theresa
									
So our topic, before—before this today was—we called it “Instinct or Excuse?” But we ended up talking a lot about fear and anxiety around our kids?
carla
									
Ugh. Yes.
theresa
									
And I think this is such a big one for many of us, that we don’t necessarily always make the connection that it’s triggering us to lose our shit on our kids; but we’re running on this, like, basically like moderate level of anxiety all the time? Just because of our culture or the—just the way we’re wired or because we’re new parents, and we have fears about our kids! And our, like, big job in life is keeping them safe. And I’m interested to hear you talk about…how we can sometimes cope with those, like, I think very natural sometimes fears and anxious feelings that we’re having?
biz
									
I’m just gonna tag this on as well—I hope you’ve got a pen and you’re writing things down.
carla
									
Oh, I do.
biz
									
Uh…it—it’s the fact that when you sat down, and you let the kids go do their own thing, I mean, age has everything to do with everything. In terms of what your kids can do, what they can’t do, I mean, you know. But that said—and—and you—you addressed that. Uh, but I [sighs] there’s not just the fear element we sometimes have, but there is this, like, I’m—like, we currently are also living in a time when I am supposed to be out and talking with all the parents, and I should be following them around and Instagramming the entire thing, and I should be, y’know, “This means I’m an involved parent because I am there.”
crosstalk
									
Theresa: Yeah. Or if something does go wrong, it’s because I’m not the involved parent who’s like, hovering. You know. Yeah. Biz: Does happen—‘cause—[frustrated noise] Agggh. Right. So there you go.
carla
									
[Biz and Theresa regularly agree with Carla throughout.] Ah. Look— [Biz and Theresa both laugh.] You guys hit the nail on the head. You are 100% correct in everything you are saying, and I would say that anxiety is one of the biggest triggers that any parent—and especially mothers, but all the parents out there deal with. We are 100% parenting in an age of anxiety. We are anxious because…we are hearing the—you know, we are constantly getting the news! News updates 24/7; like when I see people and their phones flash with, like, the latest headlines? I’m like, dude, unless you’re the freaking president, like, or somebody who actually needs to know the news and— —it’s not like he pays attention, but whatever. Um—turn it off! Like, you don’t need the news headlines. Right? Unless it is literally your job to respond to that, turn it off. The constant, um, advice—and I know this is a bit rich, coming from someone who’s written parenting books—but the endless stream of advice and research— [Biz and Theresa both laugh through next several lines of dialogue.] —like, “Oh, feed your kids peanut butter! Don’t feed them peanut butter! Feed them this kind of peanut butter but only before age—” Like, what the hell am I supposed to do with the peanut butter? I don’t know! And then somehow, if my kid gets a peanut allergy it’s my freaking fault for reading the wrong study? Like, what?! That’s crazy-making. And then, we’re also supposed to be preparing our children for an unknown future. Like, my husband is a tech entrepreneur guy, and so he’s working, you know, in companies that rely on things like mobile technology and apps and artificial intelligence. These did not exist when we were kids. And his whole career is based on it. So now we’re supposed to prepare our kids for careers that literally don’t exist yet? That’s crazy! Right?
carla
									
So we parents have good reason to be anxious. So if you are an anxious parent, first of all, know you’re not alone. Second of all, know there’s nothing wrong with you; it’s not your fault. There—I don’t—I would argue it’s not possible to parent in today’s society and not be anxious. Having said that, what are we gonna do about it? ‘Cause anxiety is a huge trigger, and many parents don’t realize that irritability is actually a symptom of anxiety. So if you are losing it a lot with your kids, that irritability may be due to your anxiety. Um—
crosstalk
									
Biz: So…do we just jab pens in our ears and our eyes? Is that the— [Laughs wildly.] Carla: No! No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I have better than that for you! I promise! Because, like, a book where I’m like, “Just jab a pen in your eye”? Not a great seller. I tried. It did not work. Biz: Yeah. Ah! That’s why I’m not—I know. Yeah. You really gotta spread that one out. Theresa: That’s why you don’t say that for, like, a hundred pages.
carla
									
In the book, I discuss the whopping case of postpartum anxiety I had— [Biz laughs knowingly.] —that I had for, like, so many years that I think at some point it clinically is no longer postpartum anxiety because it’s, like, “Oh, it’s the baby weight!” but I had my baby ten years ago. [Laughs.] You know, it was like that kind of anxiety? So what were some of the things I had to do? Well, first of all, I had to get my sleep under control because when you are sleep-deprived, that’s, like, you know, adding gas to the flame of anxiety. Anxiety flourishes when we are exhausted. So if you’re not sleeping, you know, you’re fighting an uphill battle with anxiety. The second one was: I got my ass back into therapy! Right? You know, I needed help! I couldn’t solve this problem on my own! And I am a clinical social worker, right? And I still couldn’t do this on my own. For a while I was taking antidepressants; a low dose of an antidepressant that was prescribed for anxiety made a huge difference in helping me sort of get out of this cycle of terrifying thoughts! Because guess what? Every morning when I dropped my daughters off at kindergarten, preschool, I’d look out and if it was a sunny day I’d be, like, “Today’s the day somebody’s gonna come shoot up the school.” Right? How do you live like that? And so if you are a parent who’s having those thoughts, let me remind you again: it’s not your fault. We are parenting in a crazy age. The other thing I did was I was, like, “I have to move my body every day.” I was—I’m not—look, I’m not an athlete. I was never a huge exerciser; it’s always been a struggle for me. And what I have found is that when I get out for a walk, when I get on the elliptical in the basement, when I roll out my yoga mat at the end of my bed and do a little video I find on Youtube and my cat’s, like, walking around sticking her butt in my face while I’m trying to do this—like, I’m not a fancy-pants about any of this, but I have to move my body every day or my anxiety goes through the roof. The other thing I do is limit my social media and news intake, and I spend time with parents who don’t increase my anxiety. If I’m hanging out with other mothers who were talking about the latest study or how their kid’s doing this and my kid’s not doing that and why haven’t I signed my child up for, like, the afterschool coding class because they have to know how to—I’m like, you know what? You’re probably a lovely person, but we’re not the right match right now in our lives. [Biz laughs delightedly; Theresa chuckles.]
carla
									
You guys asked another important question here. You were, like, you know, how do we—or at least the question I heard was, “How do we not make decisions from a place of anxiety?” I spent a lot of time getting reality checks. I know the people in my life who are less anxious about things than I am and they are people who have parenting styles that I consider similar to mine. Look, there are many, many ways to be a good parent; but I’ve found a group of people that I’m, like, we’re all kind of in the same wavelength about how we parent. And I will call them up and say, “Am I being nuts?” So this is my therapist, my husband, my good friends? And I’ll be like, and they—I know that they will say to me either, “No, that’s how I do it, too. I think we’re cool,” in which case—hey! If we’re being batshit crazy, at least we’re being batshit crazy together! Like, that’s not nothing! [Biz and Theresa laugh.] And I also know that they’ll say, “Carla, you gotta go chill. This is, like, too much. You’re getting—you’re getting all ratcheted up. You need to calm down because that’s—that’s bananapants.” And when they say it, they say it in a way that I can hear it. [Carla agrees with Biz as Biz speaks.]
biz
									
Right. It’s not at you, they’re actually talking with you because you trust them. I mean, like, you know, Theresa and I, from the very beginning when we first met, we didn’t parent the same way. And—and we still don’t! You know? But…I can say something to her about a situation that I’m in or something that’s stressful, and I know when she gives me her perspective, it’s—it’s actually a really reasonable, good perspective. There’s not—
crosstalk
									
Theresa: Or at least it’s, like, respectful of where you’re coming from. Yeah. Biz: It’s respectful! It—yeah! It’s respectful. And I think…so I think you are right.
biz
									
Having—finding those people, even if it’s just one other person, is incredibly helpful. And I—you—you started to touch on something and I think, I wanna wrap up on this because I think it’s important for our listeners to know this about the book. A lot of books—and I think it’s why, when we hear things like [exaggeratedly calm voice] “Mindfulness! Meditation!” or “Have you done this?” or something. [Theresa laughs often throughout next several lines of dialogue.]
crosstalk
									
Biz: And I’m not—look. I am not mocking, because I am constantly on the hunt for those things. You know? Like… Carla: You have to say it in that voice, actually. You’re not allowed to not say those words if you’re not [inaudible]^ them. [Mimicking Biz] “Mindfulness.”
biz
									
”Put your shoulders down, Elizabeth. You can’t clean your ears with your shoulders! Put them down!” I think it feels like they’re being written for one person. And I—I don’t feel that, like, it—we aren’t one person? We are all walking around with very different experiences, very different things happening at any given moment, and your book acknowledges this. And I—I’d like to ask, I mean, besides just being a reasonable human being in the world and, uh, being empathetic? But that’s—the case? Why is—why were you being so thoughtful in your book? [Laughs wildly.]
carla
									
[Laughing at length.] Well, funny you should—um, look. I—I’m so grateful for that question. Thank you. I’m really touched. You know, a—a reviewer actually described my book as “incredibly inclusive,” and that was the—like, the best thing. I was—I don’t—I burst into tears. I’m also a crier. But, um—
biz
									
[Laughing.] That’s the anxiety. [Laughs.]
carla
									
[Laughing.] God! Um, look, I—I have been on the receiving end of so many books that I’m, like…well, great, but if I could’ve done that I would’ve done that. Like, okay. Or, there’s—you know, as a social worker, having worked with so many different people in so many different communities and situations and parents—like, this both—this is the double-edged sword of my crazy brain is I can always think of the exception. Like, the country music song comes on and it’s talking about these amazing people who were born in the world and it’s all because two people fell in love. I don’t know if you’ve heard that song. I’ve—it’s an oldie.
biz
									
Is that not every country song? Go ahead. [Laughs.] [Theresa laughs.]
crosstalk
									
Carla: Oh my God, I love it. And the—you know where my crazy brain went? It’s like, “Really? What about the people who were born because of accidental pregnancy or rape?” Like, that’s where my brain goes! And so I have this brain that’s always thinking about— Theresa: [Through laughter] This is why we get along on this show. [Biz and Theresa both laugh.] Carla: —the person who’s on the outside. The person who’s not part of the main narrative; the person who doesn’t have a parenting partner or is dealing with an addiction or doesn’t have enough money to go out and buy a perfect desk to—this is, like, every, you know every fall that Good Morning America shows are, like, “You need to set up a little workplace for your student!” And I’m like, what about the families that are homeless? Or live in one room? Really? Where are they gonna do that? And by the way, nobody uses those. They all work at the kitchen table anyway. So— Biz: That’s right! Or on the floor, or at the library. Right. Yeah, there’s no—yeah. Go ahead.
carla
									
So what I was really aiming for is to think about those parents. Like, everybody says “You need to put your child in high—the best-quality child care!” And I’m like, “Well…what if the only child care is the only one that has openings that you can afford between your house and your job?” You know? That’s reality for so many of us. So I tried as best I could in the book to write a book and to only make suggestions that I felt would be…relevant and feasible to as many families as possible. And I’m sure I missed the mark; I’m sure there were examples—like, I feel like every parenting book assumes that your child is neurotypical. Well—what if your kid isn’t? You know? Well then you have to go out and buy the special book for the parents of, like, kids who aren’t neurotypical? [Biz laughs.] No! Stop it! Well—first of all, this book is for parents; it’s not about your kids. But I tried to acknowledge that, like, we’re all in different family structures with different people and different styles and different cultural and religious beliefs; and different financial incomes and different access to support and money and other adults and…so hopefully the strategies in here will feel mostly relevant most of the time to most families.
biz
									
It’s a gift that you put that in the book. Carla, thank you so much. Not only for the book, and for your previous books, but this book is—is really, incredibly helpful and…again, for everybody who, um, has not heard me say the title just casually as a way of expressing myself [breaks off, laughing] again, it’s How to Stop Losing Your Shit With Your Kids. Thank you for writing the book, and thank you for coming on and talking to us and I—just, come on again. Not even for a book. Let’s just keep talking about things ‘cause you’re fun. [Theresa laughs.]
carla
									
I would be delighted. I love talking to you guys. Thank you for having such an amazing podcast that—that we parents really need.
biz
									
Well, it [breaks off, laughing]. As long as there are children in my life I will find things to come in here and talk about when it comes to my identity as a self. [Biz cracks up; Theresa laughs.] So—thank you so much for joining us; we’ll make sure we link everybody up to where they can get the book, as well as all of your other information. Thank you so much.
carla
									
Awesome. Thank you, too.
biz
									
Alright. Have a good day.
carla
									
You, too.
crosstalk
									
Biz: K, bye-bye. Theresa: Bye!
music
									
“Telephone” by Awesome from the album Beehive Sessions. Down-tempo guitar and falsetto singing. Brainwaves send a message: Pick up the phone (When you I call) Arm is moving now, no longer stone (When you I call) Hand reaches out with a will of its own (When you I call)…” [Music fades out.]
promo
									
[Very faint music playing in the background.] Travis: I’m Travis McElroy. Courtney: I’m Courtney Enlow. Brent: I’m Brent Black! And we’re the hosts of Trends Like These. Courtney: Trends Like These is an internet news show where we take the stories trending on social media and go beyond the headlines! Travis: We’ll give you the actual facts of the story and not just the knee-jerk reactions. Brent: Plus, we end every episode with a ray of hope that we call the “Wi-Five of the Week.” Travis: So join us every Friday on Maximum Fun. Courtney: Or wherever you get your podcasts! Brent: Trends Like These: real-life friends talking internet trends. [Music ends.]
promo
									
[Faint suspenseful violin music in background.] Justin McElroy: We’re the hosts of My Brother, My Brother and Me, and now—nearly ten years into our podcast—the secret can be revealed. All the clues are in place. And the world’s greatest treasure hunt can now begin. Griffin McElroy: Embedded in each episode of My Brother, My Brother and Me is a micro-clue that will lead you to 14 precious gemstones, all around this big, beautiful blue world of ours. Travis McElroy: So start combing through the episodes—eh, let’s say—starting at episode 101 on. Griffin: Yeah, the early episodes are pretty problematic, so there’s no clues in those episodes. Travis: No. No, not at all. Griffin: The better ones—the good ones? Clues ahoy. Justin McElroy: Listen to every episode repeatedly in sequence. Laugh if you must, but mainly, get all the great clues. My Brother, My Brother and Me: it’s an advice show, kind of, but a treasure hunt, mainly. Anywhere you find podcasts or treasure maps, My Brother, My Brother and Me—the hunt is on!
crosstalk
									
Biz: [Enthusiastically] Whew! Theresa: Yeah. Biz: I…love her. Theresa: Yeah. I love her. Biz: I don’t think we have to talk a lot about it. ‘Cause it— Theresa: Yeah. We could just have this conversation every week? Just as a good reminder? So many good reminders? Involved? Yeah. [Laughs.] Biz: Every week! Yeah! There were a lot of reminders in that. [Laughs.] That discussion. Oh, so good! Again, the book: How to Stop Losing Your Shit With Your Kids. [Kissing noise] Mwah! Beautiful!
biz
									
What’s also beautiful is listening to a mom have a breakdown! So…sit back.
caller
									
[Answering machine beeping.] This is, um, a breakdown, I guess. I am—[through tears] I’m just trying too hard to be a “self,” and I have a four-year-old and a ten-month-old, and I’ve been struggling, and I’ve been struggling with postpartum depression and anxiety, and I really want to get in shape and I want to feel better; I’m, like, not in a healthy place, so—I’ve tried to start trying to be a self!’ And I made an appointment with the doctor. I need to see a doctor. And then they cancelled my appointment on me before I go, and then—so I—whatever. It took me forever to reschedule and get the energy back up to reschedule, and I did, and I went, and I felt great, and we made a plan; I’m gonna go talk to this therapist, and…the therapist I called—when I called them, like, they didn’t—they said they can’t get me in for, like, two months. I was like, “Well, I can start being healthy. I can start working out.” And then I made—I bought some training session! Some personal training sessions at the gym I’m a member at. And the first one I scheduled, the—we had a miscommunication and the trainer didn’t show up. So I didn’t get to do it. So we emailed back and forth and I got rescheduled and I got here this morning and…the trainer is not here again! [Crying.] It’s like…oh, and last week, my follow-up appointment for my doctor, they sent me an email saying they had to reschedule me. So now I have to call them and reschedule that appointment, and I’m just [crying] like, why is everything so hard? Like, why can’t I just—I’m trying, and everything is happening to make it not happen! You know, I have to get childcare for these things; I have to miss [deep breath] it’s just…so hard. And I just want to be a self and I want to do these things; but it’s like the world keeps—which is ridiculous. The world is obviously not conspiring against me. These things happen. [Sighs.] And it’s fine, and then the [sniffs] trainer—I’m gonna message him, I’ll go ahead and work out. So she comes, she gets there before I leave and was, like, “Oh, you know. I’m so sorry, and”—and she’s just like explaining what’s going on, and like her kid has health stuff going on, and then I feel like a shit. I feel like a shit for being upset about my shit. Because she’s got stuff going on. And she’s obviously, like, fit and keeping it together and why can’t I— [Biz laughs quietly.]
caller
									
—keep it together, and why am I so upset over a stupid missed training session? [Deep breath.] Okay. I’m okay. You guys are doing a great job. I really…appreciate having your podcast to listen to. Thank you.
crosstalk
									
Biz: Okay. First of all, you are doing…a good job. Theresa: Yeah, you are. Biz: You are. The…I…I’m just gonna jump right in to the trainer. ‘Cause—I’m just gonna start with the— Theresa: Go. Do it. Yeah. I would start with the trainer. Yeah. Let’s—
biz
									
[Theresa interjects often to agree with Biz.] “I now feel bad for feeling bad about the trainer missing the appointment and it’s just a—a training session.” No, it’s not. It’s not! It’s your time. There are two separate things happening here. Whatever is happening in the trainer’s world—yes! Okay! That is—that is hard! Right? Like—I mean, this is what we are always talking about! Everybody is walking through the world with something. It is okay to be empathetic and respectful of those things. Simultaneously, it does not mean that your things are no less real! You have been working incredibly hard to try and give yourself some self-care. You’ve identified what you think might make you feel better; you have taken the steps to get that for you. It is hard. When you have to line up the childcare; work with other people’s schedules; get it set up. Yeah! Yeah! Pre-kids, I would’ve been, like, “What the fuck! Pick up the phone! Schedule it!” Right? Now I’m like, oh, it’s been easily—it could easily go a year without going to a doctor. Right? Like—[breaks off, laughing]. Like, it just like—
crosstalk
									
Theresa: Yeah! Or, like something fell through; I’m gonna have to call and schedule that again, and it’s weeks before I finally— Biz: Loop back around to do the thing that you know is important and you need to do it! Theresa: Yeah. Yeah. That’s a lot.
biz
									
And so—your time is also valuable. And…you’ve done all this work! So it’s okay to be sad and disappointed and frustrated and angry that you didn’t get the session that you really wanted!
crosstalk
									
Theresa: And that you worked really hard to set—I mean, it sounded like there was—it didn’t work the first time also; I mean, it’s just—you shouldn’t be—you are correct in your assessment that, “Why is it so hard?” It should not be this hard. Biz: No, it shouldn’t! And—go ahead.
theresa
									
No, no. Just the—that, on top of how difficult it’s been to get the medical help and the therapy started, none of that should be so hard. And you’re doing such a good job with it. It’s so hard to make those appointments and re-make those appointments, and it’s so hard to do it when you’re feeling bad, and to continue to have to re-set a boundary to the world that says, like, “This is important?” Like, this is—you—people are with their actions telling you over and over again that this is not that important? And you’re having to constantly re-assert, “Actually, this is so important. This is kind of an emergency right now.” And that’s so exhausting. Having to do that over and over and over again.
biz
									
This goes right back to that instinct: the instinct telling you that these are important things. And people are telling you not to listen. Right? And that’s…you know this is important. And I—yeah. Everything Theresa just said, I have nothing to add to that other than: you are doing a remarkable job. And we see you?
theresa
									
Yeah, we do.
biz
									
This is…hard. And we see you. And…you are doing a really good job.
theresa
									
Yeah, you are.
biz
									
Theresa, what did we learn today? We learned that my instinct is right: I should never let my children ever out of their bubble. [Singing] “Safe bubbbble. Safe bubbbble!” [Regular voice] “Hey, I’m just gonna put this food through the slot! Nope! Can’t go out! Don’t put your finger out; it’ll get chopped off. That’s how Johnny Willison’s mother lost her fingers! She stuck it out the window”—these are, like, I grew up with so many stories from my mother being, like—
crosstalk
									
Theresa: “Don’t do that! ‘Cause”—yeah. Biz: “Don’t put your—don’t put your head out the bus window! That’s how so-and-so’s mother lost her head!” Right? Like [breaks off, laughing]. Theresa: Oh my God. Biz: I’m alright. I’m alright, right? I don’t have anxiety! Theresa: Yeah, it didn’t affect you. I’m pretty sure. Yeah. Biz: So—didn’t affect me or my parenting.
biz
									
[Theresa agrees, often and emphatically, with Biz throughout] Actually—what I—what I really feel like, the thing that I took away from today’s conversation—maybe it all ties together, maybe it doesn’t—uh, it’s something you said at the very beginning of the show, and something our guest Carla said as well. And she was talking about needing the help and…you know, “I’m a social worker. I—and yet, I—I couldn’t do it.” I couldn’t fix it on my own. Yeah. You, at the beginning of the show, getting help, because—you, actually, Theresa, I—I know this might be hard to believe, but you cannot physically be in three different spaces at once!
crosstalk
									
Theresa: Yeah. I’m starting to believe that. [Laughs.] Biz: You actually—you actually cannot!

									
And as we just heard from our caller, fucking appointments—once you get that shit scheduled, yeah. That’s not changing. So something else has got to step in. This—strange sensation, that we are supposed to be able to do it all. And that any action we take to get ourselves help—and this is with kids or with jobs or with just how we are walking through life?—is incredibly detrimental. It—if we ask, we either need to justify it—I’m not sure to who—I’m—I’m really not sure who is, like, [scandalized voice] “Can you believe they got a sitter? Can you believe they have a night nanny? Can you believe that they went to therapy?” They’re a therapist! Get over it! Right? Like, “You had children. What do you mean, you can’t actually—you’re not enjoying yourself?” Right? Like [through laughter] like, I mean, as dumb as, like, “I got a lot of pair of jeans that don’t fit but I really wanted them to,” you know what I mean? Like, should I suffer in those jeans? No!
crosstalk
									
Theresa: Does that make it better? Biz: Does that make it better? No! Theresa: No.
biz
									
And so…whatever that is, how we have gotten here as a group, or what I—I really liked about talking with our guest was just this idea that…it’s normal we’re feeling this way, because of everything that’s happening around us. Because of the world we are currently living in. And…our instincts are good; I think…when we shut off a lot of that noise that’s causing a lot of our anxiety and fear we have a time to—it gives us a chance to ask those questions of, “Is this instinct spot-on? I’m glad I’m having an instinct; good job, instinct! Thank you for showing up!” However, is this the right thing for the situation. Right? Allowing ourselves to have the time to question. I mean, we need to be walking through the world with so much critical thinking and so much eyes open; why aren’t we turning that onto ourselves? Right? “Is this based on something real?” Or—you know—and I—and—and to be kind to ourselves with that. And to be kind with ourselves for getting fucking help! There’s no village. So, like, we need to fucking make it. However you make it, whether it’s only for a short period of time, if that’s all you’ve got, if that’s all your able to do is just get help for the month? Then just get fucking help for the month. Right?
theresa
									
Yeah. Or figure out what kind of help you can get.
biz
									
Yes! Yes. And that’s when we should be out asking each other the questions. That’s when social media should be a helpful thing. That’s when the group should be, like, “Here are some different ways that I—I did this!” You know? Or, “Have you thought about this or that?” There are—again, even if it’s just going to the fucking library. Right? It’s…so much. And I just think…everybody, you’re doing a remarkable job.
theresa
									
You are.
crosstalk
									
Biz: You’re really—you really are. Theresa? Theresa: Yes. Biz: You are doing a remarkable job. Theresa: Thanks, Biz. So are you. Biz: Thank you! And we will talk to you guys next week! Biz and Theresa: Byeee!
music
									
“Mama Blues” by Cornbread Ted and the Butterbeans. Strumming acoustic guitar with harmonica and lyrics. I got the lowdown momma blues Got the lowdown momma blues Gots the lowdown momma blues The lowdown momma blues Gots the lowdown momma blues Got the lowdown momma blues You know that’s right [Music fades somewhat, plays in background of dialogue.]
biz
									
We’d like to thank Max Fun; our producer, Hannah Smith; our husbands, Stefan Lawrence and Jesse Thorn; our perfect children, who provide us with inspiration to say all these horrible things; and of course you, our listeners. To find out more about the songs you heard on today’s podcast and more about the show, please go to MaximumFun.org/onebadmother. For information about live shows, our book and press, please check out OneBadMotherPodcast.com.
theresa
									
One Bad Mother is a member of the Maximum Fun family of podcasts. To support the show go to MaximumFun.org/donate. [Music continues for a while before fading out.]
speaker 1
									
MaximumFun.org.
speaker 2
									
Comedy and culture.
speaker 3
									
Artist owned—
speaker 4
									
—Audience supported.
About the show

One Bad Mother is a comedy podcast hosted by Biz Ellis about motherhood and how unnatural it sometimes is. We aren’t all magical vessels!
Join us every week as we deal with the thrills and embarrassments of motherhood and strive for less judging and more laughing.
Call in your geniuses and fails: 206-350-9485. For booking and guest ideas, please email onebadmother@maximumfun.org. To keep up with One Bad Mother on social media, follow @onebadmothers on Twitter and Instagram.
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People

Biz Ellis

Host
Gabe Mara

Producer
How to listen

Stream or download episodes directly from our website, or listen via your favorite podcatcher!