Transcript
sound effect
Three gavel bangs.
jesse thorn
Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I’m bailiff Jesse Thorn. This week, Plea Cute! Jonathon brings the case against his wife, Kat. Jonathon believes their first date was a post-class lunch in their college cafeteria. Kat says that lunch did not count as a date. Who’s right? Who’s wrong? Only one can decide. [The squeak of chairs being pulled out followed by slow, heavy footsteps.] Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.
john hodgman
Podcasts? Don’t be so melodramatic. Look at all those podcasts down there. Tell me, would you really feel any pity if any one of those podcasts stopped moving forever? If I offered you ₤20,000 for every podcast that stopped, would you really, old man, tell me to keep my money? Or would you calculate how many podcasts you could afford to spare? Free of income tax, old man! Free of income tax. The only way you can save money nowadays. Bailiff Jesse Thorn, please swear them in.
jesse
Jonathon and Kat, please rise. [Chairs squeak.] And raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever?
kat
Yes.
jonathon
I do.
jesse
Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman’s ruling, despite the fact that—as a graduate of a major northeastern private university, he only ate—I don’t know, gold doubloons or something in his college cafeteria? [Snorts of laughter.]
jonathon
[Tickled.] Yeah.
kat
Yes. [Laughs.]
john
Munch, munch, munch, munch, munch.
jesse
His college cafeteria was Hurst Castle. [John laughs.] Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.
john
No hints, Bailiff Jesse Thorn! No hints, if you please! Jonathon and Kat, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgement in one of yours favors. [Chairs squeak.] Can you mention the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom? It was almost a complete quote. There were—obviously, the podcast was not part of the quote; I substituted “podcast” in for a telling noun. Uh, Kat, let’s start with you.
kat
There is a lot of money stuff. Uh, and I—
john
Money stuff. I’ll put that down as a guess. Money stuff.
kat
[Laughing.] Yeah. Um. I do not think that it’s A Christmas Carol, but that was what my brain went to? I’m very not confident there, but I feel like Jonathon was raising his eyebrows. So, we might as well just go on over to him.
john
Well, I’m putting down A Christmas Carol and money stuff.
kat
Money stuff!
john
Money Stuff sounds like a Wesley Snipes movie from the ’90s. Wesley Snipes and Woody from Cheers. What’s his name? Woody Harrelson. That’s one of those movies.
jesse
You’re close! It’s was Wesley Snipes and Coach from Cheers.
john
[Laughs.] Oh, what a film that would’ve been! Now, Jonathon. What is your guess?
jonathon
I thought I knew it. It sounded like something from the end of Squid Games on Netflix, but—
john
[Thoughtfully.] Sounded like something from the end of Squid Games. The End of Squid Games, which would be a great title for a Squid Games sequel. Alright. I’ll put in both Squid Games and The End of Squid Games: The Return. That’s the sequel title. And let’s see, money stuff. Money stuff meets ghosts. Squid Games, the end—nope! All guesses are wrong. Jonathon and Kat, what generation are you? I don’t wanna ask you your particular age. Are you in your 30s? Your 20s? Your what?
jonathon
We’re right on the cusp of Millennial/Gen Z-ish. I’m 27.
kat
I’m 26.
john
Oh, so you weren’t even born when this podcast started. [Jonathon chuckles.] Waaay back when, when I used to say my favorite movie was a certain movie that I tried to get the person I am married to—at that time, a person I was just starting to date—to watch. My wife, then girlfriend, who’s a whole human being in her own right then and now came over to my house. I had rented my favorite movie to show her. We had just started dating. This might have been kind of our first date. And I said, “Would you like to watch Carol Reed’s The Third Man, starring Joseph Cotten and Orson Welles?” And she said, “No, thank you. Let’s hug and kiss instead.” I’m like, “Oh! Dates! I understand. Okay. Good. Now I know.” [Chuckles.] That’s how I learned what a date is. This is a case about dates: what they are, when they happened, what counts as one, what doesn’t. But the answer, of course, was The Third Man. I was quoting from the famous Orson Welles monologue at the end of The Third Man. You ever see The Third Man, Jonathon or Kat?
jonathon
I have.
kat
I have not. I’ve actually never even heard the title of that movie until this moment.
john
Oooh, I wouldn’t leap into it. You need to see The First and Second Man first, otherwise you won’t be able to follow it. [They chuckle.]
jesse
Yeah, Man Trinity is the official title.
john
Orson Welles plays a black marketeer in Vienna, in post-World War II Vienna. And his old college chum meets him on a giant—what do you call it? Ferris wheel! And he’s saying, “Don’t you have any morals about the people that your bogus penicillin has been hurting?” And he does not gesture down at the ground to podcasts. He gestures down at the ground to people who look like ants to them. And said, “If I gave you ₤20,000 to stop one of those dots from moving, wouldn’t you do it?” That’s what I considered to be a romantic movie at the time. I’m glad we didn’t watch it. Now, onto the case. Who comes to seek justice in this fake court of non-law?
jonathon
I do.
john
Jonathon. What is the justice you seek?
jonathon
So, my remarkable wife, Kat, who’s a whole human being in her own right—
john
Very nice. You have listened to the podcast before. Alright, I understand.
jonathon
We’ve been together for close to eight very blissful years of marriage. I think it’s a very successful marriage. You know, fights and quarrels are squashed pretty quickly, but one disagreement that’s existed throughout our whole relationship has been over what a first date is and what our first date is. And I believe it is our cafeteria outing in October of 2013 at the community college we were both attending. I invited her to have lunch with me in the cafeteria. I walked her to the cafeteria. We had lunch. And I walked her back to her class. I count that as a date. She doesn’t. I’ll let her argue her points, but I think it hits all of the hallmarks of a date that I’m sure we’ll get into.
john
Okay. Before I ask for your testimony, Kat, let me just check with Jonathon on a couple of details, here. Are you at liberty to say the name of the community college where you had this cafeteria date?
jonathon
Yes. It is Meridian Community College, in Meridian, Mississippi.
john
Old Meridian Com. And in the cafeteria, did they just have trays and trays of grilled cheese sandwiches?
jonathon
Yes! [John chuckles with delight.] I would usually get like a grilled cheeseburger. Every day.
john
Okay. Okay. Oh, I love to eat in a cafeteria! I would go on a date with you there, Jonathon.
jonathon
Yeah. It was a pretty dingy cafeteria.
john
Before we go any further, may I ask: when you walked her to Meridian Community College caf, were you wearing a cape? And at any point, did you lay the cape down over a puddle for her to walk over?
jonathon
[Chuckles.] No, I left my cape in the apartment.
john
Yeah, see, that would’ve decided it pretty quickly, ‘cause when you put a cape down over a puddle, it’s definitely a date. Would you agree, Jesse Thorn?
jesse
Yeah. Did you know that at Yale, you’re not even allowed into the dining hall without a cape?
john
Oh, yeah, I learned the hard way.
jesse
They have some lost and discarded capes that you can put on if you show up gauche, capeless.
john
Apparently a cloak does not count. A hooded cloak does not count. [Jesse confirms.] I’m like, “I’m a member of a secret society over here!” They said, “Get out! Go get a cape. A gentleman’s cape to go with your Gentleman-C.” That’s Hi-C. They used to serve it in the cafeteria. Gentleman’s Hi-C. [They laugh.] It was like—
jesse
They never—they’d never deign to serve Low-C.
john
[Laughing.] No! It was regular Hi-C, but with absinthe. Okay, anyway! Jonathon, finally, before we go any further I will—legally, I will correct the spelling of your name. You’re welcome. [Jonathon chuckles.] Because you spell your name J-O-N-A-T-H-O-N.
jonathon
That’s correct.
john
This is the second Jon-a-thon that I’ve had to deal with today. I’m just—I just settled on a case for The New York Times Magazine, my little columnette, my Judge John Hodgman columnette in there, against—and this is a little preview, spoiler—against a Jon-a-thon.
jonathon
I’ve never met another Jon-a-thon. So.
john
You gotta get to know this person. He’s from Australia and he calls lunch dinner, which is fine, but he also calls breakfast dinner. He calls all meals dinner! I don’t know if that’s an Australian thing or what, but the point is, Kat, when you—are you—are you married now, the two of you? [Kat confirms.] That’s nice. You definitely had a date.
kat
At least one.
john
We’ll figure out which the first one was, yeah. But you knew what you were signing up for when you married a person named Jon-a-thon. It’s not a sprint. [Kat confirms.] This is gonna be a long road with this Jon-a-thon.
kat
Sure was. Sure is.
john
Gonna get a lot of Jon. I hope that it goes on forever. Now, how do you dispute the contention that Jon-a-thon has made about this date?
kat
Well, I say that this, not a first date. In fact, not a date at all. [John “oooh”s.] This is more of an acquaintance get together and if anything is a group friend outing, because it’s not a one-on-one, sit-down lunch, as Jonathon likes to paint it. This—so, Jonathon and I met in the Meridian Community College concert choir. Which is—it’s a small ensemble—25 to 30 students.
john
I’ll watch five seasons of this television show.
kat
[Giggles.] Yeah, 25 to 30 students at most. And we met there by Jonathon complimenting me via telephoning a compliment through someone else in the baritone section. So, I—
john
Wait, he called into—he called out of the—he called into the baritone? No, he called out of the baritone section.
jesse
[Singing lowly.] “You look nice.” [Kat cackles.]
crosstalk
John & Jesse: [Harmonizing and getting higher each time.] “You look nice. You look nice. You look nice.”
jesse
As it passed from section to section.
kat
Uh, no, he—you know, when you whisper into someone’s ear, and they whisper into someone else’s ear. That kind of a telephone.
john
Oooh, like a game of telephone. I gotcha.
kat
Yeah, like a game of telephone. He didn’t wanna tell me—
john
Oh, Jesse, you were right on. That’s exactly how it was passed down the line. It started as, [singing low] “You look nice.” And then, eventually, as it went through 30 different people, it was like, [singing high] “I need mice!” [They laugh.]
kat
So, this guy named Kalen tells me he likes my dress. And I’m like, “Oh, thank you, Kalen. Very nice.” And then, Jonathon is like, “No, that compliment’s from me.” [Laughs.] And I’m like, “Oh, cool.” And that’s how we met.
john
[Laughs.] That’s a pretty meet cute, I gotta say. Meet… I never knew what meet cute was until probably, oh, a decade ago. But that’s the situation in a rom com where a couple meets. It’s usually pretty cute. That was pretty—the cutest of the meet cutes that I’ve heard.
kat
I would think so.
john
Good job.
kat
And this choir met during the lunch period. They’d get started at 12:15. And so, it was a pretty common occurrence for the members of the choir to eat together, either directly before or directly after class, because we were always hungry right around the time choir met, because it was every single day of the week from 12:15 to 1:30.
john
And also, you were young people, and you were hungry [groaning] all the tiiiiime.
kat
Starving. Ravenous.
john
Yeah. Yeah, of course, and you could just like eat a dozen grilled cheese sandwiches and then go to choir and be like, [singing] “This is fiiiiine!” And then have like ten more after.
kat
100%. No cheese-throat problems.
john
No. Exactly not. Just gallons—drink a gallon of whole milk before you get up onstage. Why not? You could do it then. Your body was in perfect condition.
kat
Yeah, so what I’m getting at is that it was a pretty normal occurrence for groups of choir students to eat together at the cafeteria. And so, it was kind of always understood that any time before or after choir, at least five to ten choir kids would be eating in the cafeteria. And so, it’s kind of neither here nor there if, on a specific day, Jonathon was like, “Hey, do you want to get lunch in the cafeteria?” Because I was always gonna get lunch in the cafeteria that day. It’s not a special kind of ask. It’s not—it’s a very—there’s no risk involved. And it’s not any kind of expression of romantic intent, either.
john
Right. Right, okay. He was basically like, “Are you walking the same way I’m walking?”
kat
Yes. And also, I will say, when we got to the—we did walk to the cafeteria alone together on this day. However, we sat at a table with five to seven other choir students. There were multiple other MCC people there.
jesse
I love the idea that these choir students rolled 10 to 15 deep out to the cafeteria, and they’re all holding—and they just push some dweebs off of a—off of a bench. [They laugh.] Like, “Sorry, choir’s here.”
john
“You don’t know where the—you don’t know this is the choir table?!”
jonathon
Matching letterman jackets.
john
[Singing operatically.] “Step off, neeeeerds.” Did the choir group all have a regular table? Yes or no?
kat
Yeah.
john
[Chuckling.] Mm-hm, mm-hm. Where was it in the caf?
kat
When you walked in, it was on the right-hand side, kind of in the corner.
john
What was the nearest neighboring clique? The board gaming table?
kat
There was definitely a Magic the Gathering group, but they did not hang out in the cafeteria a lot. They hung out in the kind of social table area outside of the bookstore.
john
Alright. And what did you have for lunch on this non-date? Do you remember? Was it memorable at all to you?
kat
Salad? I always—every time I go in a cafeteria, I eat at the salad bar. I love a salad bar, but I hate the prep work to make a salad bar on my own.
john
You don’t have to make the whole salad bar. You can make—you can just make one salad. [They chuckle.]
kat
That’s true!
john
You live in Kentucky, now? Is that correct? [Kat confirms.] Yeah. So, you probably have a bit of a—a little bit more square footage in your home than an average New York apartment. But that doesn’t mean you have to get a whole salad bar.
jesse
“Honey, which do we put on the registry besides all these sneeze guards?”
john
So, [sighs] Jonathon, let’s talk about intention, here. Did you intend for this to lunch to be a date or were you just walking in the same way, and you asked on impulse?
jonathon
Yes. I think I would disagree with the idea that there was no romantic intention, 'cause it had been building up to this point. This wasn’t just the first day—like, the way she presented it, this was like the second thing I ever said to her was, “Let’s go get lunch.” But I think there was clear romantic buildup. Like, hanging out one-on-one that led up to this specific day where I invited her to walk with me to the cafeteria. And we had lunch. I remember it we had lunch together, and we were at the choir table alone, and then people joined us—however long it took for people to start gathering, that’s up for debate, but I think it started with an alone, one-on-one lunch.
jesse
As you remember it, there was a red checked tablecloth, the lights were low, there was a Chianti bottle with a single candle in it.
jonathon
Exactly.
jesse
You shared a plate of spaghetti.
john
Spaghetti.
jonathon
Exactly. And then, I walked her to her class following lunch. So. That’s—I think that there’s a lot of date hallmarks that are being met there. Like, you know, those nervous butterflies you get when you’re talking with someone you really like. I think it’s clear we both had that. You know, eating food is a common dating ritual. And I think by virtue of us being together all these years later, that means it has to have been a date.
jesse
Kat, did you like him? He’s describing that he liked you.
kat
I liked him, but I don’t know if romantic intent was expressed. And I also don’t think that we had hung out one-on-one before this, or even really in a group setting. And I also may have still been in a relationship with someone else at this time. So, I—
john
Woooooah!
jonathon
First I’m hearing of this.
john
Woooah! Wow!
kat
That’s not true!
john
I mean, quoth the Do-Boys, “Wooow.” If I rule in your favor, Jonathon, that means I by law must brandish your wife a cheater.
kat
[Playfully yelling.] Nooo!
john
If this was your first date, then she was cheating on you—intentionally or no.
jonathon
She was definitely in a relationship when we first met. But I am positive that that relationship was over at this point. I remember specifically waiting until that had ended to ask her on this official date.
kat
Here’s what I know: is that we started dating—officially became boyfriend/girlfriend—on November the 9th, 2013, which was exactly two weeks after I broke up with the person I was with previously.
john
Nice recovery, by the way, Kat. I’m glad you were able to move on. And happy anniversary! We’re recording this right now just a few days after your anniversary, your dating anniversary!
kat
Yeah! Hey, yeehaw!
john
Your ninth! I think. Your ninth dating anniversary, right? Yeah. Okay. Cool.
kat
Yes, nine years.
john
Yeehaw, indeed.
jesse
Let’s take a quick recess and hear about this week’s Judge John Hodgman sponsor. We’ll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.
sound effect
Three gavel bangs.
sound effect
Three gavel bangs.
john
Alright, let me get something straight. Obviously, there’s a little bit of Rashomon going on, because there’s some indistinct memories happening. It was your intention for this to be a date. Is that correct, Jon-a-thon? That’s what you’re saying? [Jonathon confirms.] But if Kat didn’t perceive it as a date, how could it be a date?
jonathon
I think in a lot of dating situations, it’s not—it doesn’t need to be clear for both people. [Kat and John make very concerned noises.] I think sometimes you want it to be like a more natural thing— [John continues groaning uncertainly.] —that just sort of turns into a date a lot of times. Like, I think it’s pretty common to go on first dates with friends because, you know, a lot of people wanna feel safe. They have the desire to feel safe, or if it turns out they don’t want it to be date, they might want an exit plan. So, I think that’s pretty common to be around mutuals for your first romantic outing.
john
Yeah, but Jon-a-thon, look. Even though—even though you spell your name in the atypical way, compared to the other Jonathans that I know, and the Johns—we’re still all part of the fellowship of Johns. And from one John to a Jon-a-thon, you don’t wanna be out there saying, “If I think in my mind it’s a date, it doesn’t matter what the other person thinks.”
jonathon
[Chuckles.] I’m not saying that at all.
john
That’s not a good—that’s not a good look for the Johns. You know what I’m saying? It’s not a good look. You almost sunk it there, but I’ll still hear all the evidence.
jonathon
I think both of us were hopeful it was a date, at the time.
john
Kat, were you hopeful at the time that this was a date? Or were you just having a salad with a choir friend? Yes or no, tell me the truth.
kat
I was hopeful it was a date, but I don’t think that means it was a date. I think that my standards are and were higher than just hoping that a scenario is a date makes it a date.
jesse
So, you were mad that he didn’t pay the five bucks to get the violinist to play ‘O Sole Mio’?
kat
Or that he didn’t swipe his meal ticket. You know?
john
[Gasps hugely.] Woooah!
kat
I had to use my own.
jonathon
Not allowed. Not allowed.
kat
It was.
jonathon
It wasn’t allowed.
kat
I did it for people.
john
But a big gesture, like breaking MCC cafeteria rules, that’s romance! Interesting. And you mentioned the thing about risk too, Kat. Can you say what that means to you? You said that Jonathan wasn’t really taking any emotional risk in going to the cafeteria lunch with you. I have a note here. You said it. Do we need to read it back to you, Kat? [Kat stammers “no, no, no, no, no” but John talks over her.] Why aren’t you—okay. I’m just teasing you.
kat
No, I understand where we are now. Um, yeah, he had not—I feel like at this point in our kind of situationship, I had been doing a lot more of the heavy lifting in terms of just initiating any kind of conversation, period. And his definition of beginning of budding relationship was kind of just following me around campus and conveniently showing up places that I happened to be.
john
Mm-hm, John Hodgman style. [Kat giggles.] That is the fellowship of John move, I have to say.
kat
And I kind of was left in a lot of ways wondering whether or not he was romantically interested in me. And so, how could I know if this was to be a date or not? You know, if he wouldn’t even compliment me directly.
john
Yeah, let me just clarify that the John Hodgman style of dating is to be around the person as much as possible for years without ever expressing any emotion whatsoever. [They chuckle.] But the difference between me and—between a John and a Jon-a-thon is that I never walked away from that going, “That was a great date!” [Laughs.] I walked away from that going, “That person thinks I’m garbage because I am. They probably don’t even think about me at all!” Anyway. Just a little—just a little—a little background information, there. And so, okay, so you were waiting for a risk of some kind. And by the risk, what do you mean? That’s what I’m trying to get at.
kat
Yeah, I guess I was hoping that he would’ve said something. Anything. Like, “Hey, I think that you are attractive. Why don’t we go on a date?” You know. Something to that nature. Or [haltingly] “What if you and I hang out alone?”
jesse
Did he talk like that at the time?
john
[Through a laugh.] Yeah.
kat
[Laughs.] Yes. No.
jesse
Because my friend, Jim, for the first three months of kindergarten [dropping his voice to a monotone] talked like a ro-bot until they had a pa-rent teach-er con-ference. [They laugh.]
john
“Why don’t you and I hang out alone?” Did he ever say that to you? Or not until—not until your vows? [Kat giggles.] Was that his vows at your wedding? “Hey! I like you a lot.”
kat
I thought he said that to me once, when I thought we were having our first date.
john
Tell me about what you thought was your first date.
kat
It wasn’t. On November the 7th? 2013. We agreed to go to the movies together and watch Thor: The Dark World. Terrible movie. But—
john
Uuuuuh, I don’t—I—that’s one I have never seen.
kat
I wouldn’t.
john
I feel bad, ‘cause Alan Taylor directed it, and he directed me in an episode of Bored to Death, and I liked him. Oh well.
kat
You can be a good person and the movie can be medium.
john
Yes, I suppose that’s true. [They chuckle.]
jesse
I don’t know! [Laughing.] I’m pretty sure—I’m pretty sure the reception of one’s artistic efforts is reflective of one’s intrinsic value.
kat
[Laughing.] 100%. [John agrees.]
jesse
I’m like 85% on that.
john
Pretty clearly. So, your first date was that you agreed to go see Thor: The Dark World. And as inauspicious a start as that was, that was your first date. But you say an agreement was reached—that’s some pretty diplomatic language. Who asked whom?
kat
So, he asked me to go to a movie. We agreed to meet at McAlister’s beforehand. Have a little din-din. [John “ooh”s.] However, when I—
jesse
[Laughing.] I’m just—I’m just—I’m sorry, I’m not laughing at you. I’m just excited about din-din at McAlister’s!
john
I’m telling you, five seasons—six seasons and movie of this whole thing!
jesse
Love it!
kat
Yeah, when I got to McAlister’s, there was not one Jonathon, but two Jonathons, because his roommate, also named Jonathan, but spelled with an A was there. [John and Jesse react with horror and Jonathon laughs.] And so, what I thought—
john
Oh nooo! Oooh no! What happened?!
kat
[Laughing.] What I thought was our first date—what I thought, “This is a risk! This is a expression of romantic interest. He’s asking me to hang out. Maybe he’ll do a stretch and flex in the darkness of the movie theater. Maybe we’ll share a kiss. Maybe we’ll share a baked potato and a cup of soup.” None of that—
john
At McAlister’s?! Their famous baked potato and cup of soup deal?!
kat
Yes! The choose two! We didn’t share any of that. Instead, I sat between him and his roommate, Jonathan.
john
You—but you still count this as your first date?!
kat
No, I do not. [John affirms.] I count it as what I had thought was our first date.
john
Was going to be your first date.
kat
Yes. Yeah. This was the kind of risk.
john
But it was sabotaged by the fellowship of Johns! [Kat laughs and agrees.]
jesse
Even after agreement had been reached at the summit of the two.
kat
Yeah. I think that there can be more of an argument for this than the cafeteria. I think that our actual first date was after we had already started dating. And that was a little soiree at Taco Bell and then sitting in the back of Books-A-Million and watching Man of Steel on Jonathon’s Kindle Fire.
jesse
I love the specifics.
jonathon
That was our third date.
john
Hey, specificity is the soul of Meridian. No, okay, so. Setting aside cafeteria love meet, then there is Thor: The Dark World with the fellowship of Jonathons.
jesse
Love Meat is my favorite kiss album, either way.
john
[Laughs.] M-E-E-T, in this case. There was so much specificity that I almost couldn’t handle it. Be as specific as possible with this third date again. You were watching something on a Fire Kindle in a Borders bookstore?
kat
Yes, we—we met at Taco Bell. And we ate bean burritos. And then, we rode together to the adjacent Books-A-Million, and we sat on the floor in the back, beside the magazines, and we watched Man of Steel on Jonathon’s Kindle Fire.
john
In the year 2013.
kat
That is correct.
john
So many things existed that do not exist anymore in that wonderful story. Like, it’s a real trip through time. Watching Man of Steel sitting by the magazines in the bookstore. All those things are gone like sand through the fingers of time. I just made that up. Sand through the fingers of time. It doesn’t make any sense. What day did that occur? You said November 7th for Thor: The Dark World.
kat
This was after we had officially become boyfriend and girlfriend. So, it was after November 9th. I think that it was the following weekend. So, somewhere mid-November.
john
So, how did you become boyfriend/girlfriend between this nondate of Thor: The Dark World—? [Kat “hmmm”s pointedly.] And your hangout at Books-A-Million.
kat
Hmmm. This—well, um, I was a—
john
You don’t have to be very specific here; I’m just saying—
kat
Yes. Um, I was at a Halloween party, and I was messaging Jonathon. And Jonathon was not at the Halloween party. He was at his apartment at the community college. And he—we were just—
john
With his roommates John, Jonathan, Jonathon, Jonjon, and Joe? [Kat confirms playfully.]
jonathon
He was present.
john
Short for Jonathan, right.
kat
And the Halloween party I was at, they put on a scary movie. And this was a Halloween party happening in November. It was a post-Halloween Halloween party. And I did not want to—
john
Yes. I’m tracking the dates very carefully, don’t worry.
kat
I did not want to watch the movie, ‘cause I was, uh, very scared.
john
Which movie, again?
kat
I believe it was maybe Sinister or one of the Insidious movies.
john
Uuuh, okay. Very good.
kat
Spooked me pretty good.
john
I hear those are scary.
kat
Yes. And so, Jonathon said, “Well, what if you came over and we watched Fox & the Hound together instead?” [John “aww”s.] And I said, “Sounds good to me.” And so, then I drove 25 minutes to his community college apartment that was no girls allowed. And I snuck into his community college apartment.
john
Holy cats.
jesse
2013 was wild in Mississippi. [They laugh and Kat agrees.] Community colleges with apartments where girls aren’t allowed, magazines, Books-A-Million!
kat
His roommate answered the door.
john
Was it John or Jonathan or Jonjon?
kat
It was—it was Jonathan number two. Answered the door.
john
Okay, already a great beginning to this real date. [They agree.] It’s already a throwback.
kat
I don’t know if Jonathan number two knew that I was coming. And then, I came in, I sat on the armchair with Jonathon number one, my Jonathon. And we watched The Aristocats instead of Fox & the Hound. [John laughs and Jonathon confirms.]
jesse
The classic bait and switch.
kat
[Laughs.] Yeah! And then, we just said, “Might as well make it official.” [Laughs.] And we did.
john
Nice!
jonathon
I gave her a bracelet. [Kat confirms.]
john
Is that true?!
kat
That is true! He did. He was wearing a bracelet. It was a leather bracelet that snapped together. [Through laughter.] And he took it off of himself and he put it on my wrist! And he said, “We’re dating now.” And he kissed my forehead.
john
Oooh. That—alright.
jesse
Traditionally, the dating relationship is consecrated with gifts purchased in the college quad. [Kat and Jonathon keep laughing.] So, it may be a leather snap bracelet. It may be a sterling silver ring with a yin-yang on it. Or it could be a Scarface poster.
john
Could be some devil sticks. You know what I mean? [Jonathon agrees with a laugh.] “Here, you take one of my devil stick batons. Forever we shall keep this stick in the air forever together.”
jesse
“Let us now hack the sack.” [They chuckle.]
john
Uuuuh, wooow. I mean, come ooon, Jon-a-thon! Why is that not your first date? That feels like a first date to me.
jonathon
That one, I’ve never considered that our first date, because I mean, firstly it took place after the cafeteria date. And secondly, ‘cause there wasn’t—that one definitely there was no intention or effort on my part. With the cafeteria, at least there was an invitation and a strolling, an escort to the cafeteria.
john
I must stop you. As important as a strolling escort to the cafeteria is to a potential date-ee’s heart, don’t sell yourself short here, Jonathon! You invited her over to watch a movie! You saved her from Insidious 2, which came out September 13, 2013. Couldn’t have been Insidious—couldn’t have been Insidious 1, because that came out in 2012. Insidious 2 didn’t come out until 15. Gotta be Insidious 2, just so you know, so you can add it to your calendar. [Kat thanks him.] Or your diary.
jonathon
Yeah, I considered that a romantic date that took place after those first two dates—the cafeteria and the Thor: Dark World one. But—
john
Woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, woah. Tell me what was romantic about Thor: The Dark World. [They laugh.]
jonathon
I put my head on her shoulder during the movie.
kat
In the credits. [Jonathon confirms with a laugh.]
john
Before or after the mid-credits’ scene?
jonathon
I think before the mid-credits’ scene, after other Jonathon had gone to the car and left us alone. Yeah.
john
Oh, finally he got the message?!
jonathon
[Chuckles.] Yeah, he was my ride, so. I had to—he had to be there most of the time.
jesse
How did it feel to be on this runaway love train? Moving from choir lunch to head on shoulder to exchange of leather bracelet and kiss on forehead? [Jonathon and Kat giggle.] Over the course of mere weeks!
kat
It was riveting.
john
Look. Kat. [She affirms.] What do you circle as your first date? Fox & the Hound turned to Aristocats? Yes or no?
kat
No. I believe our first date is Taco Bell followed by Man of Steel in Books-A-Million.
john
Alright, so that was after you became boyfriend and girlfriend. [Kat confirms.] Okay. That’s your first date. [Kat confirms.] And Jon-a-thon, you’re still on cafeteria lunch.
jonathon
Yeah, I consider Taco Bell our third or fourth date. But cafeteria, definitely the first date. ‘Cause it’s—I don’t wanna discount, that was a very magical day for me. I don’t wanna just lose it to obscure hangout territory.
john
And November 9th was Taco Bell and Man of Steel?
kat
No, November 9th was the day—that was Aristocats. I don’t have a specific date tied to Taco Bell Man of Steel.
jesse
November 9th was the date of the Fox & Hound lie. [Kat confirms.]
jonathon
But Taco Bell definitely occurred after official boyfriend and girlfriend.
john
Maybe I just don’t understand the terms here. Because I’ve been probably on two dates my entire life that I knew were dates. And I’m 51 years old, and I don’t know what kids do these days. Explain it to me like I’m a 51-year-old. First, Jonathon. What is a date?
jonathon
So, I think a date, it has to have a few hallmarks. There needs to be an agreed upon locale and time suggested or an invitation. It needs to have some of those first date hallmarks, like nervous butterflies or close, physical proximity. And there needs to be something building. It needs to be building into something more. If after that date, you don’t wanna hang out with that person anymore, then it was probably just a one-sided affair. So, I think a date can be a pretty relaxed, no-stakes hangout and still be a date.
john
Mm-hm. Like the cafeteria hang. [Jonathon confirms.] Gotcha.
jesse
Jonathon, do you think that it requires advanced planning?
jonathon
Not that advanced. Some kind of planning, even if it is “you wanna come hang out at my apartment?” Some kind of planning.
john
Did you wake up that morning and go, “This is it. I’m going to sort of walk closely to her as she is walking towards the cafeteria where I know she’s going and will be going anyway. And I will suggest, ‘Do you want to keep walking together and have lunch together?’” Did you at least think of it that morning?
jonathon
There was a lot of internal preparation. You know, if you’re like a shy boy who hasn’t been on a lot of dates, like I hadn’t at that point, then you want to have like—if she said “no” in that circumstance or she didn’t see it as a date, there’s that exit valve of, “Oh, we’re just going to the cafeteria.” It’s like, I don’t have to be embarrassed every time I see her now if she says no or rejects me. So, there’s sort of like—it’s sort of cheating, but it’s a way to like play both sides, not give away your whole hand.
john
Mm-hm. And Kat, you heard that checklist that Jonathon laid out when I asked what is a date. Do you have a checklist?
kat
Sure do!
john
What is it?
kat
I think that at the very top of the checklist is that both people have to know that it’s a date. I think that it has to be agreed upon by both parties and that romantic intent has to be expressed by both parties. I think those are the big three for me. The hallmarks of food or location don’t really matter to me, ‘cause I think that that’s very—you know, you could go hiking or whatever. [John affirms.] Yeah. So, my big three are both people have to know that it’s a date, romantic intent has to be expressed.
jesse
Kat, what constitutes an expression of romantic intent? How would you characterize that?
kat
“Hey! I’m interested in you romantically.”
john
She got you there, Jesse. She got you there. [They chuckle.] Simple and believable. But it does sound like the lunch was special to you. Even if Kat didn’t understand or agree that it was a date, how does it make you feel knowing that Kat doesn’t share your point of view on this?
jonathon
Yeah. I—when I remember that day, I remember that being the first official romantic kindling of the spark of our relationship. I think that was the first time I could tell even if there wasn’t this clear “I am romantically interested in you” robot statement, you know, you can just—not all the time, but a lot of times you can just tell when someone is vibing with you and you are reciprocating that. So, that date was the first time I felt like she does like me, she’s interested in me, and we can further this along, maybe go on more dates in the future and see where it goes.
john
Was there anything that she said or did, outwardly, that made you feel encouraged to invite her to go see Thor: The Dark World?
jonathon
Um, well the fact that she said yes in going to the cafeteria. That was a good sign for me. I think we had—
john
That was all you needed at that point?
jonathon
[Laughs.] I think that was the start. We had—I remember having like very good, deep conversations on the way to and following the cafeteria.
john
Well, heavens! Jon-a-thon, why didn’t you tell us about the deep conversations!
jonathon
I—‘cause I don’t remember—
john
All you were doing was talking about your cape! Oh no, that was me. Sorry.
jonathon
I don’t remember the specifics, and I don’t wanna cheat and say we had these super deep conversations.
john
Kat, did you have deep conversations on the way to and from the cafeteria? Yes or no?
kat
We’ve always had good conversations together. I also don’t remember a lot of specifics of our early conversations, except for a few standouts about academic integrity. So, we don’t have to really talk about that a ton.
john
I’m not going to go down that rabbit hole, thank you very much. But I will ask: you know, if you didn’t already before, that Jonathon feels a certain way about this cafeteria lunch. How does it make you feel to know that he thought he was on a date with you, and you didn’t?
kat
I think it’s really sweet. I think it’s nice. I think it’s—
john
But you wanna punish him all the same. [Inaudible].
kat
[Laughing.] I don’t wanna punish him! I think it’s—I think that he’s holding onto it. I think he’s being very stubborn about this. I think that—I don’t know. I’m not saying that he’s being disingenuous, but I think he really, really wants to win. And I think he—I think he wants to razz me, and he wants to rile me up. Like, this is something he pulls out whenever he wants to—not make me mad. Like, he doesn’t want to pull this out to make me mad, but if you—he wants to make me a little bit like frustrated, he’ll be like, “Ah! I don’t know what to talk about right now.”
john
I see. So, if I were to rule in your favor, Jonathon, you want me to rule that the first date was this cafeteria date and should be celebrated, right? By celebrated, what?
jonathon
I just want it—going forward, I want it to be recognized as our first official, unequivocal date, so when friends ask us about it, there’s not a bunch of caveats and a bunch of “this might be our first date, or this might”. It would be just a definitive “this is what constitutes a date and this why the cafeteria date fits in that category”. I don’t wanna lose that.
john
Why is this important to you?
jonathon
Because I don’t wanna lose that romantic spark that we had when we went to the cafeteria as—
john
Yeah, but you—you felt it. You certainly felt something, but you don’t—and you can’t even tell me now—when I said, “What did she show to you or say to you that suggested that this was the beginning of something?” You said, “Well, she didn’t say, ‘No, I won’t continue to walk down this same hallway with you, ‘cause I’m going to lunch anyway.’”
jonathon
And there were conversations.
john
And deep conversations. I forgot. Okay. [Jonathon confirms.] Hey Kat, I forgot to ask you something. [Kat affirms.] I was so flabbergasted by the fact that you went to see Thor: The Dark World with two Jonathons. And I think it’s a second Jonathan does kind of undo the date a little bit more even than the quality of Thor: The Dark World. Who asked whom on that?
kat
Jonathon did ask me on that.
john
Whatever we’re gonna call it. We’re not gonna call it a date right now. On that social occasion. [Kat confirms.] Jonathon, tell me about the day you decided to invite Kat to see Thor: The Dark World.
jonathon
Um, I think that I was building up courage. You know, over those first few weeks. And that was probably, following the cafeteria date, that was the first day I expressed—
john
I don’t wanna know—I don’t wanna know your inner life anymore. [They chuckle.] Sorry. I mean give me some of this sitting on the floor in Books-A-Million with a Kindle Fire detail. You decided one day, “I’m gonna call her up. I’m gonna text her.” Did you send her an email? Did you send her a baritone message? A secret choir relay? And why did you choose Thor: The Dark World? And what did you do and what did she say? And then I’ll get her side of it, and then I’ll go make my verdict.
jonathon
I believe it was a Facebook message. Thor: The Dark World because that was the movie that was playing. I think we both were sort of interested in Marvel movies at the time. And I saw that as the next step in our soon to be relationship is going on either a one-on-one date or a smaller social gathering until it just whittles down to just the two of us as it is now.
john
So, you sent her a Facebook message saying those words exactly? Right? “I think we’re both kind of into Marvel movies, and I’d like to see if this is going to go somewhere or deteriorate into mere friendship.” Is that what you said?
jonathon
Um… not that forwardly. But I— [John snorts.] I did not mention—
john
Kat, do you remember receiving the Facebook message inviting you to see Thor: The Dark World?
kat
I do remember that. And I think I actually have a screenshot of that message. I can maybe pull back up—okay, Jonathon: “What are you doing tomorrow?” Me: “I don’t know yet. Why?” Jonathon: “I’m going to see Thor, if you wanna come.” Me: “I do really want to see that. What time?” Jonathon: “7:30, 7:50, or 10:25.” Me: “7:30 or 7:50 would probably both work for me. I’m not 100% sure I can go, but I’ll let you know by tomorrow morning.” Jonathon: “Why don’t you just commit to it right now and make me super happy?” Me: [John and Jesse groan repeatedly. Kat giggles.] “I wish I could. I have to make sure my mom doesn’t need me to do anything?”
jonathon
[Meekly.] I’m so sorry.
john
What is the date on that one?
kat
That’s November—I don’t have the date on that, but that is—
john
It has to be November 7th.
kat
It’s like November 6th or 7th.
john
Yeah, I don’t wanna call you a liar ‘cause you said that you went to see Thor: The Dark World November 7th, but it opened on November 8th.
kat
Okay, so then we saw that—
john
I’m just gonna make that adjustment.
kat
I think we saw it on opening night.
john
Unless you went to like a midnight screening the night before.
kat
I could be wrong.
jesse
Or unless your mom needed something from you.
kat
[Chuckling.] She did not need something from me, ‘cause we did go the following day.
john
So—but—so, the message exchange ends with “I’ll see if my mom needs me” and that’s where you left it?
kat
Oh no, we kept messaging, but I think—Jonathon really cringes at the thought of like any messages past yesterday. So, I think he’ll die if I continue reading.
jonathon
That was a pretty bad exchange on my part.
john
Why do you think that was a bad exchange on your part, Jonathon?
jonathon
I did not like that little pressure of trying to get a yes. I would tell someone—I’d tell my younger self to not do that.
jesse
ABC, that’s what I’d tell your younger self. Always be closing.
john
Yeah! I mean, Jennifer Marmor, do you wanna weigh in on a—we all kind of gasped at that. I saw you on your teleconference screen. [Jennifer confirms.] What was your feeling there?
jennifer marmor
What was my feeling? It was surprising! I was very surprised that Jonathon went so hard.
john
Were you grossed out? Were you like, “Ugh, this guy.”
jennifer
No, but only because I’ve had a few conversations with him, and I know he’s not a gross guy.
john
Right, that’s what you need the cafeteria lunch for, to establish non-grossness?
jesse
John, the cafeteria meal establishes grossness. That’s where you dip your grilled cheese into ranch. [They laugh.]
john
By grossness, do you mean sublimity?
jesse
[Laughing.] Yeah. Both! Porque no los dos? [John laughs.] Jonathon, at what point in this text conversation did you invite Jonjon to the movie theater? Was it after Kat semi-rejected your relatively intense overture?
jonathon
That is a fault on my part. I did not—at no point did I make it clear to Kat that Second Jonathan would be coming on the date. The reason he did come was because my car at the time broke down every other day, and I needed a ride. And he was my ride. So, that was under the stipulation that he would see the movie with us [laughing] if he drove me to the movies.
john
Oooh, everyone wanted to see Thor: The Dark World, wow. 2013 was a very interesting time. We did not know what was coming for us in 2013. That’s on November 8th.
jesse
A time when there were no magazines, we had hope for democracy, and rideshare services were called Jonjon. [They chuckle.]
john
That’s right! Jonathon, I’m gonna go into my private screening room. I’m gonna watch Thor: The Dark World to get myself into the mood for this verdict. You have—let’s see here. Let’s see, running time, uhh, 112 minutes or so to wait for my verdict and to contemplate what it might be. Before that happens though, I would ask you to contemplate now if I were to rule against you, and say, “No, that was not the first date,” what would that mean to you? How would you feel and what would that mean to you?
jonathon
Um. I think I could find content with it either way. I just want it to be official what is considered a date. So, I’ll be a little sad if we can’t have that date, but I’ll still find some solace in the wonderful dates that we’ve had since.
john
Okay. Kat, what would it mean to you if I were to rule that that was your first date? How would you feel about that?
kat
I would be a little confused, but I would accept it, ultimately.
john
Kat, why do you think it’s so important for Jonathon to have this be the first date? If you had to guess? ‘Cause it seems to me like Jonathon has a little bit of difficulty talking about his innermost feelings. Every now and then, he’ll surprise you with something, but like I just asked him, “What would it mean to you if I just ditched your first date?” He’s like, “I’d find contentment somehow.” [Kat confirms.] If you had to guess and think—you’ve known him now for many years and shared a life with him. What do you think’s going on with him? Why do you think this is so important to him? What do you think it means if I were to take it away from him?
kat
I think ultimately Jonathon is very intentional. So, he probably—even though he’s not describing in a ton of detail, he probably did think about this a good bit and work himself up to it. I was also—I was and am his first romantic partner really in any way. So, it would—I’m not giving him a ton of credit on this but asking someone to eat at the cafeteria with him is the biggest romantic gesture he had ever made in his life up until this point. So, that in itself is pretty nice. That’s a big step for him, even if I don’t recognize it as a qualifier for a date. It still was a big step for him. And so, I will at least recognize that. So, I feel like those are probably some bigger reasons that he didn’t personally address.
john
If it weren’t a date, Jonathon—if I say that’s not a date, would it cheapen your feelings do you think?
jonathon
No! I still—I still value those feelings. If it’s not an official in terms of like the etymology of a date, if it doesn’t fit within that definition then I’m still fine.
john
Then what are we doing here, Jonathon? [Chuckles.]
jonathon
I just—I want it to be an official date, if I can have that.
john
Okay. You want it to be an official date. The only thing stopping it from being an official date is Kat. [Jonathon confirms.] So, when she says no, that wasn’t a date, how does that make you feel?
jonathon
Um… slightly like my intentions weren’t real.
john
Interesting. When you hear that, Kat, how do you feel about that?
kat
Well, it makes me feel a little sad for him. But I don’t think that makes his intentions not real, it just means maybe I was misunderstanding them at the time. I think I just needed some clear communication.
john
Yes, Kat, I can understand why you might expect some clearer communication. But this is the fellowship of Johns we’re talking about, here. We’re shy guys. Shy guys. Alright. I can’t wait to watch Thor: The Dark World any longer. [Chuckles.] I will go into my private IMAX, watch this thing, and I’ll be back in 112 minutes—no bathroom breaks—with my verdict.
jesse
Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. [The squeak of chairs followed by heavy footsteps and a closing door.] Kat, how are you feeling right now?
kat
A little hungry, but pretty confident.
jesse
[Laughs.] Well, it’s almost 12:15! We’ve booked you guys into a studio. Don’t worry, just outside that studio door is a giant stack of grilled cheese sandwiches. [They laugh.]
kat
Thank god!
jesse
Sincerely, how do you feel right now?
kat
I’m feeling pretty solid!
jesse
Why is that?
kat
I feel like there are a couple of viable first date options, and the cafeteria is not one of them. [They laugh.] I do not know if my first date, which is the Taco Bell Man of Steel combo, will be chosen, but I do not think that the cafeteria will be chosen.
jesse
Jonathon, how do you feel?
jonathon
Uh, less confident, since those bombshell texts and everything that’s transpired, but I feel good.
jesse
I mean, you did come in here guns blazing. [Jonathon chuckles.] We’ve never had a more cocksure litigant on Judge John Hodgman. Just came in here talking mess and taking names. [Jonathon agrees with a chuckle.] Jonathon, what do you think might change from this?
jonathon
Um, I think it’ll just be a squashed disagreement. Whichever way the ruling goes, we’ll accept it. And we’ll move on.
jesse
We’ll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment.
sound effect
Three gavel bangs.
sound effect
Three gavel bangs.
jesse
Judge Hodgman, we’re taking a break and we’re each going to be appearing live and in person on opposite coasts of this country in the upcoming days. You’ve got something going on in Massachusetts.
jesse
That’s right! On Saturday, December 17th, I am returning to reunite with our old friend Monte Belmonte on the beautiful stage of the Shea Theater in Turners Falls, western Massachusetts. That’s just about an hour and three quarters away from Boston. That’s a little bit north of Hartford, a little bit east of Albany. It’s the pioneer valley, everybody! I’m coming back for what we’re calling our Hodgmonte Holiday Spectacular. Monte and I—I’m the Hodge, he’s the Monte—are gonna be having some fun together and doing some chats and maybe singing some songs along with two very special guests: our friend Jonathan Coulton and our friend Jean Grae will also be up there. You can get your tickets and reserve your seats right now. Just go into whatever search engine you use and type in “Hodgmonte”. H-O-D-G-M-O-N-T-E. H-O-D-G-M-O-N-T-E. And I wanna give a little shoutout to the Prairie Lights bookstore in Iowa City. There was some chatter on the internet when we were talking about Aslan and his family reading Gareth Hinds’s graphic novel version of The Odyssey an episode ago or so. And Aslan said that he found it in the kid’s section of the—the young person’s section in the basement of what he said was City Lights bookstore in Des Moines. Some chatter on the internet like, “Did he mean Prairie Lights bookstore in Iowa City?” Wherever it is, whatever lights your independent bookstore light—be it Prairie Lights, City Lights, wherever it may be—go out and support your local independent bookstore. Especially now, as we are entering the holidays. Books make tremendous gifts. And I wanna thank Gareth Hinds, who illustrated that graphic novel edition of The Odyssey for writing. He listened to the episode, really appreciated it. I think we’re gonna put him in touch with Aslan to send some more age-appropriate work to that family. For, indeed, that interpretation of The Odyssey is for 11 years old and up. So, I guess we got it right for once. Jesse, what do you got going on?
jesse
I’m gonna be in person as well, back in south Pasadena, California, on Saturday, December 17th at the South Pasadena Vintage Flea Market. We had a great time, met some really nice Judge John Hodgman listeners last time around. Rob Huebel stopped by. Yes, that’s right! Rob Huebel from the upcoming new Goosebumps television show.
john
Oh, really? Is that true? Good for you, Rob. Hm!
jesse
Yeah, I know. I love it. God, Rob Huebel’s so handsome.
john
Well, I mean, it’s a very articulated H, but his last name does begin with Hhhuebel as in hhhandsome.
jesse
Yeah. I think there’s no doubt about that. But anyway, the afternoon of Saturday, December 17th, we’ll be out there right of Mission Street, in south Pasadena. And of course, no matter where you live, you can do your holiday shopping at PutThisOnShop.com or, John, on Instagram @Put.This.On. I would say our Instagram business may be even busier than our web business at this point. Basically, I’m sending stuff out on Instagram as quick as I can bring it home from estates and flea markets and so forth. So, get into the Put This On Instagram, and follow those stories to grab the latest cool stuff. Right now, it’s a lot of leather jackets going out the door right now. A lot of vintage pins going out the door right now. We’re working on all kinds of stuff. So, PutThisOnShop.com and @Put.This.On on Instagram. We’ll be back in just a second on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.
sound effect
Three gavel bangs.
jesse
Please rise as Judge John Hodgman reenters the courtroom and presents his verdict. [The squeak of chairs followed by heavy footsteps.]
john
My friend and bailiff, Jesse Thorn, made a little lighthearted tease about the runaway love affair of these weeks back in 2013. And you know, he’s right. You weren’t—you weren’t vespa-ing in Rome and then jetting off to Paris and dancing atop the Eiffel Tower as fireworks go off. But I’m gonna say this is the most romantic Judge John Hodgman ever. I wanna play this every Valentine’s Day. Jennifer Marmor, do you think you can slot that in for every Valentine’s Day? Clear it in the Judge John Hodgman calendar. Every February. Because look, here’s what happened. Kat didn’t see it as a big risk, but absolutely—and risk is a part of a date, right? When we talk about the dates, what is a date: planning, risk, romance. These all play in, to a certain degree. Incipient romance, though, is the hardest one to say. Like, once the romance has bloomed, is it even a date at that point? A date is a getting-to-know-you type of situation, where there’s a sense that something might be happening. And for Jonathon, that was definitely happening on cafeteria day. Cafeteria day, Jonathon felt it and he dealt it. And he smelt it! Those delicious grilled cheeses. He made a call to sidle up to Kat in the hallway. A call in the hall-way! Aaand make his play, which is to say, “Do you wanna go to the place you’re going to anyway with me?” And she said yes. And even though if she said no, she would’ve been a monster—which she obviously isn’t, and he knew that she wasn’t—even though this risk was profoundly minimal in any real-world capacity, it’s true that Jonathon felt nervous about it and Jonathon felt excited to be there. When asked what was the most important thing about this date, to Jonathon, the answer was, “She said yes.” That was before you even got to the cafeteria! That was a big day for Jonathon, romantically speaking. For Kat, it was nothing. And I don’t blame her. It was nothing. She went and had lunch with a guy. She was either still dating someone or just getting over someone, but it was enough for Jonathon. Then comes November the 8th. Thor: The Dark World weekend. Everyone was so excited about Thor: The Dark World. This is—this also speaks to planning, risk, and romance, ‘cause you asked someone to see Thor: The Dark World. We all knew it’s not like it was Batman Day in 1989. This was not like a sure thing, like going to lunch in the cafeteria after choir. Thor: The Dark World, that was probably the prime pick in a weekend of bad date movies. No offense to Johnny Knoxville. Jackass Presents: Bad Grandpa is not someone you wanna take on a first date to. Neither is Captain Phillips, I would say. No offense, Tom Hanks. I know you’re listening.
john
Thor: The Dark World, and you knew that she was into it. And you sent—here it comes, planning—you sent that Facebook message. She hems and haws. And finally—and this is the thing that I was really struck by, ‘cause you really took this as like, “Ooh, I put pressure on her.” And you know, I have to say—and heavens or whatever knows, the listeners may disagree with me; they often do. When you said, “It would make me really happy if you just said yes”, I felt a little pitter pat there myself! Nine years later! I’m like, “Ooh, maybe I wanna go on a date with Jonathon!” To me, that’s a risk. That’s—you’re really putting yourself out there. ‘Cause, ultimately, a date is really about like, “I’m interested in you. I don’t—I don’t want to just go to lunch with you and a bunch of singers. I want to see you and be with you.” Now, you blew it, obviously. ‘Cause you brought a second Jonathan. This does not eliminate the fact that you wanted this also to be a date, Jonathon. If it were not for Jonathan Two, it might have been. And you did put your head on her shoulder, which is pretty cute. And I hope you felt that that was okay with you, Kat. [Kat confirms.] It was. And then came November 9th, which is your anniversary. So, the first day was a big day for Jonathon. The second day was a big day for Thor. This third day was a big day for both of you. And then, what you want to be your official first date—on or about November 16th—going to Taco Bell, having bean burritos, sitting on the floor of Books-A-Million, watching Man of Steel on a Fire Kindle I would argue is probably the best day and maybe the only good day in the history of the Snyderverse. But as grand a gesture of risk and planning as Thor day—Thursday, as we call it in the English calendar—was… nothing is more romantic than the day Jonathon offered you an out on watching Insidious 2 to come see The Fox & the Hound. And yes, he misled you. He said The Fox & the Hound and switched it out for The Aristocats—a movie that I have not seen ever, I don’t think. But it’s gotta be more romantic than Fox & the Hound. Fox & the Hound is just about buddies. Oooh, the gesture and the kiss! This is—I mean, this is one of the most—this is a runaway love affair! With the icing on the cake of sitting on the floor next to magazines, which—you know—from a fellowship of John point of view, is the most romantic thing you can do on a date. I think it’s all wonderful and incredibly romantic, and I’m very glad for both of you. But you can see how each of these sort of falls into a category of a date and falls out of the category of a date. I think first and foremost, my ruling is going to be cafeteria date can’t count. I’m sorry. I’m sorry, Jonathon. I can’t let you have that as a date. You can’t have a secret, one-sided date. She didn’t know it was a date. I believe that she didn’t know it was a date. You can’t walk around and say, “That was a great date,” if it’s not mutual. That was an important day for you and in your relationship. Thor counts as a date, but I’m not gonna allow it, ‘cause Jonathan crashed it. It would’ve been a great first date. It was a semi-date. It was a preview date. And I’m not gonna count—I’m not gonna count Man of Steel on the floor either, because that’s an established couple hang. The date, to me the first date, the one that I can’t—I can’t—it’s just—you know, a date doesn’t have to be romantic. A date is specifically about getting to know one another. You know? But you’d already gotten to know each other through choir. Like, there doesn’t have to be a romantic expectation out of a date. You’re really just figuring each other out and wondering and seeing if there’s a spark there. And through all of these interactions that were non-dates, you did see and feel a spark. And it just so happens to be your first date was also the day you realized that you really cared about each other, and you were boyfriend and girlfriend. It just happened the same day. You’re already celebrating the anniversary of it. I’m gonna say that’s your first date. In part, because it makes no one happy except me. Because of course it is! Of course, it is! Ooh, when you texted, “Do you wanna come over to my house and watch—?” One of the most romantic things a person can do. Let me save you from that scary horror movie. That’s my ruling. November the 9th, 2013. Fox & Hound fake out day. First date, dating anniversary. Settled. Solid. This is the sound of a gavel.
crosstalk
Jesse & John: [Singing in harmony.] “You look nice. You look nice.]
john
Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all.
jesse
Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. [The squeak of chairs followed by heavy footsteps and a door closing.] Jonathon, how do you feel?
jonathon
I’m content. I’m happy with this. I love that. [They chuckle.] I love my wife, so. I’m happy with this ruling.
jesse
Jonathon is the freaking Buddha over here. [Laughing.] No wants, no needs, just sitting under that tree. Kat, how do you feel?
kat
Pretty ready for a grilled cheese. [They chuckle.] No, I’m—you know, I’m feeling good. I’m feeling as long as it wasn’t the cafeteria, I was happy.
jesse
Jonathon, this is my real question. If you’re gonna pull the Fox & Hound switch, why wouldn’t you show Robin Hood, the horniest of the 1970s Disney movies.
jonathon
I didn’t think we were at that stage yet.
jesse
[Laughing.] Fair enough! Fair enough! Jonathon and Kat, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.
crosstalk
Jonathon: Thank you. Kat: Thank you for having us.
sound effect
Three gavel bangs.
jesse
Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books. In just a moment, we’ll have Swift Justice. Our thanks to Ain’t No Rules for naming this week’s episode “Plea Cute”. If you wanna name a future episode, follow us on Twitter @JesseThorn and @Hodgman. Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, #JJHo. You can join the conversation about Judge John Hodgman at MaximumFun.Reddit.com. That’s MaximumFun.Reddit.com. Evidence and photos from the show are posted on our Instagram account, at Instagram.com/JudgeJohnHodgman. You can view them on the web, even if you are not an Instagram subscriber? Member? Userrr! Even without an Instagram account! If you do have an Instagram account, be sure to follow us. @JudgeJohnHodgman. This episode, recorded by Neil Kesterson at Dynamics Productions in Lexington, Kentucky. Our producer is Jennifer Marmor. Our editor is Valarie Moffatt. Now, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick judgement. Twitter user @LifeOnAPlate says, “My partner prefers to read books with the dust jacket on. But I believe the jacket should be preserved nicely. For mutually owned books, I would like a ruling that dust jackets should be removed and safely stored while reading.”
john
Well, the solution to this—I mean, well, first of all, congratulations on reading physical books. It’s a wonderful feeling. Not something I do very often, anymore. Books are beautiful objects. And when you hold them and read them, it’s a very personal experience. It’s a very intimate experience. And People curate libraries with a lot of care—both in terms of what they like to read and preserving those intimate objects that they love. And they have difference of opinion, but here’s my difference of opinion. There’s no such thing as a mutually owned book. There’s no such thing. I hope that you and your partner stay together forever, Life On a Plate—@LifeOnaPlate. But if you were to ever break up, you know which books you’d be taking, and you know which books you’d be leaving.
jesse
[Makes airhorn noises.]
john
Yeah. So, do what you want with your dust jackets on your books, in your library. Alright. Now, we also talked a lot about, oooh, good old Meridian Community College. Good old MCC. We’d love to hear more college and academic related disputes. Do you still have a beef with your old roommate from college? Or are you still best friends with your old roommate from college? Like Al Gore and Tommy Lee Jones. Can Al Gore and Tommy Lee Jones, who were Harvard roommates together, please write in with a dispute from college! Do you have a case against your dean that you’d like to submit? Are you in college now and you’re feuding with classmates over a group project? Is like—are you a member of Yale football team, and you don’t wanna study Indonesian? Just any dispute that you have having to do with community college, getting an Associate’s degree all the way to getting a PhD or anywhere in between or outside of that thinking. Aaaany—any college disputes. Let’s hear them. Boola, boola, rah-rah-rah, write ‘em into MaximumFun.org/JJHo.
jesse
And of course, no case is too big or too small. Send them to us on any subject at MaximumFun.org/JJHo. We’ll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.
sound effect
Three gavel bangs.
sound effect
Cheerful ukulele chord.
speaker 2
Comedy and culture.
speaker 3
Artist owned—
speaker 4
—audience supported.
About the show
Have your pressing issues decided by Famous Minor Television Personality John Hodgman, Certified Judge. If you’d like John Hodgman to solve your pressing issue, please contact us HERE.
Follow @judgejohnhodgman on Instagram to view evidence from the cases tried in court.
Get in touch with the show
@judgejohnhodgman
@judgejohnhodgman.bsky.socialPeople
How to listen
Stream or download episodes directly from our website, or listen via your favorite podcatcher!
