TRANSCRIPT Judge John Hodgman Ep. 721: Objection D’Art

[00:00:00]

Sound Effect: Three gavel bangs.

Jesse Thorn: Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I’m Bailiff Jesse Thorn. This week, “Objection D’Art”. Susan brings the case against her husband, David. David is an art history professor. For the last year, he’s been researching an early 20th century American impressionist named Agnes Millen Richmond. He started buying her paintings, and they’re expensive! Susan says they have too many already. She says her husband is obsessed. Who’s right? Who’s wrong? Only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

(Chairs squeak, followed by heavy footsteps and a door closing.)

John Hodgman: “Can I pose a somewhat abstract, purely hypothetical question?”

Jason Sims: “Sure.”

John Hodgman: “If you knew you were gonna die, possibly soon, what would you do?”

Jason Sims: “Am I the richest man on earth?”

John Hodgman: “No. You’re you.”

Jason Sims: “Do I have a superpower?”

John Hodgman: “No, you’re—you’re you.”

Jason Sims: “I know I’m me, but do I have a superpower?”

John Hodgman: “O-okay. You’re invisible, and you know you’re going to die. What would you do?”

Jason Sims: “Okay. That’s easy. I’d go to Space Camp.”

John Hodgman: “Space Camp?”

Jason Sims: “Yeah. It’s in Alabama. It’s where kids go to learn to become astronauts. Always wanted to go since I was nine.”

John Hodgman: “You’re invisible, and you would go to Space Camp?”

Jason Sims: “I didn’t pick invisible. You picked invisible.”

John Hodgman: “Aren’t you too old to go to Space Camp?”

Jason Sims: “You’re never too old to go to Space Camp, dude.

John Hodgman:  “You’re never too old to go to Space Camp, dude!”

Bailiff Jesse Thorn. Please swear the litigants in.

Jesse Thorn: Susan and David, please rise and raise your right hands.

(Chairs squeak.)

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God-or-Whatever?

(They swear.)

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman’s ruling, despite the fact that the primary decorative element in his home office is an Indian movie poster that Ken Plume put there without even asking permission?

(They swear.)

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

John Hodgman: It’s Turkish, Jesse!

Jesse Thorn: Okay, my apologies.

(The litigants laugh.)

John Hodgman: It’s the Turkish science fiction film called Badi—B-A-D-I—and I love it! Just like I love Ken Plume, just like I love Bailiff Jesse and Jennifer Marmor and the whole J Squad. And so far, I like our litigants. We’ll see if I love them.

(Susan chuckles.)

David and Susan, you may be seated.

(Chairs squeak.)

For an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors, can either of you name the piece of culture that I obscurely referenced? Dare I say, performed dramatically with an unknown party, as I entered this fake courtroom. Oh, I don’t know what we say about… Susan, you go first.

Susan: Well, I know there have been a lot of movies that Space Camp stars in. And there was—

John Hodgman: Name one. I dare you.

Susan: (Laughs.) I think it—was it called Space… Balls?

John Hodgman: Space Camp?!

Susan: Space Camp! Yeah. Space Camp, yeah. (Laughs.) And there was—

John Hodgman: Yeah, I don’t know about Space Balls, but definitely Space Camp. Yeah.

Susan: Eeh, I don’t know.

John Hodgman: That’s a good guess.

Susan: And to tell you the truth, I haven’t watched any of them. But I do remember that there was one in which people accidentally end up in outer space, and there were adults involved. So, maybe it’s from the movie where—I don’t know. (Chuckles.)

John Hodgman: I think—I haven’t seen it, but I do think that is the plot of Space Camp.

(Susan agrees with a laugh.)

Jesse Thorn: I think I would’ve liked Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? better if, when they were talking through what the answer to the question is, they then just sort of lost track of what the words were in the sentence, and then just said, “I don’t—I don’t—uh, I don’t know.”

(They laugh.)

Susan: Yeah. I’m afraid I can’t name the movie, but I’ll say Space Camp.

John Hodgman: Space Camp. I’m putting down for you Space Camp, Space Balls—the Mel Brooks Film.

Jesse Thorn: John, for me, put down Space Buddies. That’s where Airbud’s children go to space. I think.

John Hodgman: Sure. Okay. I’ll put down Space Buddies. I’ll put down Space Camp. I’ll put down Space Balls by Mel Brooks. And then I’ll put down also the movie in which the kids go to Space Camp, but end up going to space—which I think is Space Camp. Do you have any other guesses that you want to add, David?

David: No, I’m fine.

John Hodgman: Well, no. But you have to, you see.

David: Oh, Space Jam, obviously.

John Hodgman: Space Jam! Space Jam and Space Jam 2: The New Batch, or whatever? I don’t know. They’re all good. They’re all good space guesses. But all guesses are wrong! That is a bit of dialogue from a movie called Stranger Than Fiction. A Will Ferrell—

Susan: Which I have seen, twice.

John Hodgman: Oh, you’ve seen it twice?! Why didn’t you guess it?! When was the last time you saw it? 2006, when it came out?

Susan: Mmm, roughly. Yeah.

John Hodgman: Back-to-back showings on the same day? Like, “I gotta see this again. I’m not leaving.”

Susan: Actually, no. I watched it when it had come to video already, so probably closer to 2010 or so.

[00:05:00]

John Hodgman: Well, that bit of amusing dialogue was written by Zach Helm. It was performed between Will Ferrell and Tony Hale in the movie, but in this dramatic reenactment, it was performed by me in the Will Ferrell role and our friend Jason Sims in the Tony Hale role. Now, Jason Sims—you may or may not know, David and Susan—is a resident of the same town where we find you! Huntsville, Alabama. Which is, indeed, where the Space Camp is!

David: Exactly.

John Hodgman: And Jason Sims has been our correspondent from Huntsville going aaaall the way back to episode six of this podcast, “To Tree or Not To Tree”. Jason Sims is the one who, for many years, gave us a report on his Sadvent Tree—the sadness tree that he would put up in his shed.

(They laugh.)

He still lives in Huntsville, although he’s traveled the world many times since. And he—you can find him at his wonderful Instagram page, which is @InstaSims I-N-S-T-A-S-I-M-S. And he frequently appears at the Shenanigans Comedy Theater in Huntsville, Alabama. And indeed, recently performed improv comedy at the Saturn in Birmingham, which has inherited the legacy of the late, great Bottle Tree Cafe in Birmingham.

I have not been to Alabama in many years, David and Susan. So—and I don’t think I met you the last time I was there, but I like the area a lot, and it’s really nice to visit with you today. But all guesses are wrong, so we gotta hear this case. So, let’s take it to Huntsville, as they say. Who brings this case before me, seeking justice?

Susan: I do.

John Hodgman: Susan. Alright, Susan, before we get into your complaint—just to give some background to our audience, let’s turn to David for a moment. David, you’re a retired art historian.

(David confirms.)

No one ever retires though.

David: True. Absolutely true.

John Hodgman: In fact, many retired people become art historians.

(David cackles.)

Jesse Thorn: Are you talking about that nun from public television?

John Hodgman: I’m talking about that nun from PBS. David, you are an art historian by vocation and avocation. And you are working on—it says here, quote, “working on an artist named Agnes Millin Richmond.” What does that mean by working on, and why are you working on Agnes? What is she all about?

David: Yeah. Well, I was teaching a class, Modern Women Artists, at the university in Huntsville. And I’d known about her art for a little while, and I liked it. But I decided that I needed to take over my students’ work, because they weren’t doing it the way I wanted it done.

John Hodgman: (Delighted.) Here we go!

David: (Laughs.) And so, I was doing a little bit of research, and I found that a painting of hers—

John Hodgman: You Thanos’d it. You Thanos’d it.

David: I did!

John Hodgman: You were like, “I’ll do it myself!”

David: I do it myself!

Jesse Thorn: I haven’t seen the movie or read the comics, but does that mean that he snapped and had his students disappeared? (Laughs.)

John Hodgman: Well.

David: It was a terrible move. And—

Jesse Thorn: “Look to your left, look to your right. By the end of this semester, I will have disappeared one of those two people!”

John Hodgman: The term you’re looking for is blipped.

Jesse Thorn: Okay. Blipped. Thank you.

John Hodgman: Yeah. But then he retired, and just like that, (snaps) they all disappeared, and finally he could do art history the right way!

David: It’s so true. So, I found—I looked online, found a painting of hers from 1920 for sale in Munich for €300. Which is not like Antiques Roadshow.

John Hodgman: You mean it was affordable.

David: Yeah, absolutely! So, I bought it.

John Hodgman: But before we get into your acquisition of the work, what was interesting to you about Agnes Millon Richmond. And who is she—or was she, I should say—as an artist?

David: Well, she’s pretty much—I think I can use this word—a badass woman.

John Hodgman: Go on.

David: And the painting that I bought is called Fifteen. And it was a painting that she designed when she was teaching 15-year-old students. And it has three little things in the background. One is a picture of a student about 15 years old, and then to the right of the central figure is a married woman doing chores for her husband, and then a baby stroller to the right, looking like a cartoon hopeless figure. So, the message was, “Don’t get married. Be a badass woman painter.”

John Hodgman: But there’s a woman in the foreground of this painting as well. And for those of you who are curious—if you’re watching this on YouTube, on our YouTube channel @JudgeJohnHodgmanPod, you can see this painting right now. It is Exhibit A in this court case.

[00:10:00]

If you are not watching, go to our show page or to any of our social media, where you will find a photograph of the image that now belongs to David. It’s in the David collection of Agnes Millen Richmond paintings. It is called Fifteen. You can see that it is a painting of a rather proud and intelligent and independent looking woman seated in front of a mural of much more—shall we say—generic or stereotypical gender portrayal of young women at the time. And the time we’re talking about is—what?—the 1920s?

David: ’20, about.

John Hodgman: Okay, 1920. And she’s an American artist?

David: Yes.

John Hodgman: And where is she from—or what— She’s not still alive, I presume.

David: No, no, no. She was born in, Alton, Illinois, near St. Louis, and then moved to New York to become an illustrator and then fell in with a lot of high-powered New York artists, and became an art teacher and moved in lofty circles until they got tired of a strong woman.

John Hodgman: And then what did they do? Wicker Man situation?

David: (Chuckling.) Pretty much. Yeah.

Jesse Thorn: They snapped, and…

John Hodgman: They blipped her?!

David: They blipped her. They got her—knocked her out of the top shelf, and she had to set up a co-op gallery right next to Central Park that she operated for over a decade. And made it work.

John Hodgman: Now, one of her great preoccupations and subjects and a place where she lived, at least part of the time, was Gloucester, Massachusetts in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. We’re gonna talk about her painting, Ten Pound Island, Gloucester, a little later in the podcast.

So, you’re saying that the fine artists that she circulated with in Gloucester got tired of her and blipped her? And then she had to set up a co-op in Central Park—or outside Central Park, in Manhattan.

(David confirms.)

And what led to her blip, and why did she get exiled from this artistic movement?

David: Well, John Sloan was one of her close friends who blipped her, and a super famous artist, and he didn’t think that art should ever be political. And she was a suffragist.

John Hodgman: Ah!

David: And she wanted to paint strong women, and he wanted to have beautiful women and beautiful landscapes, and want a troublemaker. And she was.

John Hodgman: So, you are out there collecting Agnes Millen Richmond paintings more than your wife Susan would like you to be. But you’re collecting them in part to do work on her—historical work on her—and to rescue her reputation to some degree.

David: Yeah. And what I want to do is to donate all of the paintings that I buy to museums, so that she’ll be an artist on the map. So, it’s all about putting art above money.

John Hodgman: Now, Susan, you’re married to David.

(She confirms.)

You’re not an art historian.

Susan: I am not.

John Hodgman: What is your—what do you do all day?

Susan: Well, I’m sort of retired now and do a lot of gardening.

John Hodgman: Lovely!

Susan: Some traveling. And a fair bit of activism right now. And before that, I was a nurse for a few years during COVID. And before that I was a professional musician for about 30/35 years. So.

John Hodgman: Whoa! Uhhh, the best time to be a nurse!

(They laugh.)

Susan: Yeah. It was, at the height of COVID, yeah.

John Hodgman: You’re like, “Hmm. I’ve been a professional musician for many years, but here comes this horrible emergency. I guess I’ll become a nurse.” Good for you, Susan.

Susan: (Laughs.) Well, it actually happened afterwards.

John Hodgman: I see.

Susan: And the timing was not bad. ‘Cause about a year after I started working as a nurse, the symphony had to shut down to COVID for a while. So, there wasn’t much work for musicians anyway.

John Hodgman: Got it. Well, there was plenty of work for nurses, so thank you for that work. Now I understand from the art history work that your husband David has been doing that Agnes Millen Richmond is dead. And I know this is true, because if she were alive, he would be married to her, because he’s obviously in love with her.

Susan: I think so.

John Hodgman: Is that why you hate her so much?

(They laugh.)

Susan: You know what? That one hadn’t even occurred to me, so I’m gonna say no. That has no bearing on my objections to what’s going on here.

John Hodgman: So, what are your objections then? This sounds like a very interesting and wholesome hobby.

Susan: Well, it is, but it’s reached a level of obsession, I’d say, with accumulating things. Which is not out of character for David. But it’s the first time it’s been applied to the art history research that’s been part of his career.

[00:15:00]

And so, you know, he’s explained to me why he needs to have hundreds and hundreds of books arriving at the house, and why he needs to travel sometimes for—I think—not really great, productive reasons—long distances to do his research. But really, the part where he starts buying the art is where that’s a little bit out of character. Because when we first married 42 years ago, he told me that art historians should not invest in the artist they are studying. That’s an ethical problem there, because then they are doing and saying things to make the work more valuable, and it benefits them financially instead of just being pure historical stuff. So—

John Hodgman: I would like to interrogate David about his rank hypocrisy in a moment.

(David giggles.)

But if I may ask, is your primary complaint that David is acting unethically as an art historian, or he’s junking up your Huntsville home with—how many pieces of Agnes Millen Richmond Art are there in the collection of David now?

Susan: Right now, for the oil paintings, there are actually—no, only two in our house. Because he did donate one. And so, it’s not that we have a lot of Agnes Millen Richmond’s junking up my house. It’s that, one, when he first got that first painting, he said it’s a great investment. And he actually tried to get some friends of ours to buy it as an investment first. And then when they weren’t interested, he said, “Oh, we need to buy it. It’s a great investment. It’s such a great deal. Blah, blah, blah.” And then it becomes—

John Hodgman: Quoth Thanos: “Fine. I’ll do it myself.”

(Susan confirms.)

Sound Effect: Three gavel bangs.

(ADVERTISEMENT)

Sound Effect: Three gavel bangs.

John Hodgman: Alright, let’s get into it. We have—the two items you mentioned are also featured in our evidence in the show page at MaximumFun.org and on our social medias. You might be looking at it right now on YouTube at @JudgeJohnHodgmanPod, Ten Pound Island, Gloucester is the most recent, it says here, and most expensive of your acquisitions.

(David confirms.)

David, first of all, how would you describe this painting? What’s going on in this painting?

David: Well, uh.

John Hodgman: Yeah. The answer is nothing. It’s a bunch of rocks and sea. Correct?

(They laugh.)

David: Well, there’s an art historian I tried to show it to, and she said, “David, you’re wrong about everything. It’s a bunch of rocks.”

John Hodgman: Yeah. Well, that’s what I said. So, how are I and your wife wrong?

David: Well, yeah, my wife is wrong. The other art historian is wrong. And I’m right. And if you look at the painting, it’s very biomorphic. And if you look closer into the painting, it might be anthropomorphic.

John Hodgman: I have to pause there for a moment, Jesse. Jennifer, you may or may not even remember—’cause Jennifer, this was before your time—but around the time that we had Jason Sims on the program, I made a rule. Which is: the first time someone says the word “biomorphic” on the podcast, that person automatically wins the case, and we end the podcast forever. So. It was great talking to you both.

(They laugh.)

Jesse Thorn: Well, gotta go!

Susan: Can I object? (Chuckles.)

John Hodgman: No, not yet. Biomorphic, David. I apologize, Susan, but I just need to dig into this a little bit more. So, this is a landscape painting.

(David confirms.)

In the distance, you have a strip of land which has some houses on it—which I would presume to be the village of Gloucester in the 1920s or ‘30s. Then you have a strip of ocean. It’s like an inlet. And then in the foreground, you have a line of rocks?

(David confirms.)

Covered with a little bit of seaweed and even a little tidal pool in front. And it’s a very pretty painting. And by biomorphic, do you mean—? I’ll be the dummy here. The rocks seem to form the shape of a reclining body or something? Is it body-shaped?

David: Yeah. Yes, and they’re flesh colored. And they’re—

John Hodgman: Well, that’s just what it’s like in Gloucester. Have you even been there?

(Susan laughs.)

David: Yes, I’ve been. I lived in Boston. Yes.

John Hodgman: So, you know all about the fleshy rocks of Gloucester! There’s that famous Dropkick Murphy song about it! “The Fleshy Rocks of Gloucester”!

(They laugh.)

David: It’s all about flesh. This whole painting is about flesh!

John Hodgman: Whoa! Here we go! Now it’s spicy!

David: Oh my goodness, it’s so spicy, it probably belongs in Brooklyn.

Jesse Thorn: Are you suggesting David—and I don’t mean to put too fine a point on it, but would you suggest that this painting has vulval qualities?

David: I would!

[00:20:00]

John Hodgman: Hmm. Alright!

David: In more than one place in the painting. It’s quite remarkable.

Jesse Thorn: David, tell us and your wife, where else are you seeing these vulvas?

(They laugh.)

John Hodgman: And so, how much did this one set you back there? I’m much more interested in this painting now than I was a minute ago, so good job.

David: Well, absolutely! Absolutely. So, I contacted—the gallery had it for sale out in Laguna Beach for $5,500. And I said—

John Hodgman: WHOOOA!

David: I contacted them, and they said, “Oh, we can make a deal on it.” So, I waited three years, and then I went back. And our finances were looking okay. I went back, and—

Jesse Thorn: I heard some muttering from Susan. Susan, share your muttering with the rest of us.

Susan: Oh, he said he waited three years. I think he meant three weeks.

David: Oh. Well.

Susan: You know, it was probably three weeks.

John Hodgman: How long did you wait before you made an offer?

David: Uhh, probably six months.

John Hodgman: Okay, let’s say six months. I’ll stipulate to that.

David: Yeah, six months. Anyway, so I contacted the gallery, and I said, “Can you—what kind of a good price they got?” And then they put a very, very wonderful person who was my best friend.

“David, you must buy this painting. It belongs—it’s in your heart. You have to own it.”

John Hodgman: This is actually your best friend from childhood, or someone who pretended to be your best friend to sell you the painting?

David: No, this is just someone who was very intensely interested in selling it to me. And she said, “Well, what could you pay?”

And I said, “I can’t pay $5,000. I could pay $2,000.”

And she said, “I’ll make it happen for you, because I love you, and I love your story. You must own it.”

John Hodgman: That’s called art sales.

(David agrees with a laugh.)

And did you discuss this purchase in advance with your beloved Susan?

David: Yes! At least 30 minutes in advance of concluding the sale.

John Hodgman: (Snorts into laughter.) 30 minutes!? Did she know how much it was gonna cost?

David: Well, yes, when I told her 30 minutes before the hammer dropped.

John Hodgman: Standby, David. Susan, you offered an objection. I did not overrule you; I put a pin in it. I yearn to hear your objection now, and I would love to hear your side of this particular part of the story.

Susan: Well, yeah. So, he did not spend $5,000 on it. I think in the end, it set us back about $2,500—which still is a lot of money for us. We’ve bought many cars for less than that. Our current care are each 16 years old, so it’s not a normal—

John Hodgman: Are either one of them a Volvo 240 Wagon, by any chance?

(They cackle.)

Susan: Oh, this is—I see where this is going now. And I don’t object to the biomorphic part. That’s a little bit of revisionist—

John Hodgman: I just like Volvo 240 Wagons! What does that symbolize to you?

Jesse Thorn: I wanna know what car you’re driving! Is it a Volvo, a Saab, or a Subaru?!

(They laugh.)

Susan: No, we have a Versa and an Accord, 2009.

John Hodgman: Okay. Very reasonable, practical cars.

Jesse Thorn: Those are the vehicles—to be clear, those are the vehicles of people who are actually practical and frugal, not the vehicles of people who are enacting practicality and frugality.

Susan: That’s right. That’s right. And I don’t object about the biomorphic description of this painting. What I objected to was the very detailed and specific things he saw and that he started seeing in everything that she—Richmond and her husband, Turney—painted in their landscapes. And I said, “This has gone too far. You’re seeing way too much in here.” And so, now he dialed it back to simply more generalized suggestions of bodies and a sense of biomorphism.

But back to the purchasing of the painting. So, it may have been 30 minutes, but in those 30 minutes, I was waking up. He brought me a cup of coffee and handed it to me. I was asleep. He brought a cup of coffee to me in bed. And while I’m trying to wake up—and I’m not a morning person—and drinking my coffee, he tells me, “I’ve been negotiating with this gallery, and I have an opportunity. And they’ve given me a really good price, but I have to act on it now.”

And he’s being a little bit sheepish about it, but this had been going on for a long time, and this is the first I’m hearing of it. Which is the same with this and with the other—the third painting he bought as well. I’m finding out after the fact either he’s already promised to buy it or is on the verge of buying it. And since my default with David is usually “yes”—I mean, we’re frugal so that we can do the things we want.

[00:25:00]

And that is my default. And with no time to consider it, and even though it was a heck of a lot of money, I felt pressured and compelled to say, “Y-yeah, you can do this, but I’m not happy about it.” (Chuckles.)

John Hodgman: Is this uncharacteristic of David, to make large purchases without consulting you?

Susan: Yes, it is!

John Hodgman: Why do you think he is driven to act out of character in this case?

Susan: Well, I think it boils down to his general tendency to really want to acquire things. He goes through these serial obsessions where he’s acquiring things. It’s just that it’s always been smaller items. And in this case, he really just wants everything associated with Richmond.

John Hodgman: David, what other kinds of collections do you have?

David: I have a very, very large tin toy collection from Marx Tin Toys from the 1930s.

Jesse Thorn: Those are the kind of things that appear frequently on the Antiques Roadshow.

(David agrees.)

John Hodgman: Yeah. Have you ever been to the Antiques Roadshow?

David: Never have.

John Hodgman: So, you have acquired—you currently have two oils. You acquired three; one of them has already been donated to a museum.

(David confirms.)

What museum is that?

David: The Huntsville Museum of Art.

John Hodgman: The Huntsville Museum of Art. And then, Susan, you mentioned that he had also acquired a sculpture, called Girl Deep in Thought by Genevieve Karr Hamlin. We have a photo of that. Jesse, do you wanna take a look at this and tell me what the mood that this is conveying?

Jesse Thorn: So, this appears to be— And can you tell me what the material here is? The base looks like wood, but the color looks like bronze.

David: It’s all mahogany; the whole thing is one piece of wood.

John Hodgman: It’s all mahog.

Jesse Thorn: So, what we’re seeing here is a picture of a girl with straight bangs and a dress style that would suggest that maybe she is eight years old or something like that. She is standing with her legs tight together, her head down in the palms of her hands. She looks like she is in shock or mourning. She looks deeply distressed.

(David confirms.)

It is a very beautiful piece. Very finely made and very expressive. But it is a little distressing.

John Hodgman: Yeah, it’s quite striking. And I’ll quote—and I believe this is a quote from you, Susan, here in the description for this Exhibit C—“Now I identify with this poor girl. She does not look deep in thought to me, despite the title of the sculpture. She seems deep in distress.”

(They chuckle.)

Jesse Thorn: And it is genuinely beautiful. Like, I wanna emphasize that it is a beautiful thing to look at. It’s not just upsetting.

John Hodgman: No, but you feel—you share some distress with this girl, Susan, I take it?

Susan: I do. I do. And it’s growing on me. This is the one that just appeared on our doorstep.

John Hodgman: Trust me, distress is growing on all of us these days.

(They laugh.)

Susan: Yeah, yeah. I feel that she really is— If I’d known what was to come, I would’ve said, “Yes, maybe that’s something we should own. It really captures the zeitgeist.” But it was—it just—I was not consulted about it. But now that I have it, I enjoy it. And that’s true of all the works. Once he sneaks ’em by me and they’re in our possession, they grow on me. I wanna learn to love them; I wanna learn from them. Which is why it was surprising to me when he up and donated one that wasn’t in our house very long and that was growing on me. And he donated it to a museum.

John Hodgman: That’s the third oil from the collection, the one that’s now in the Huntsville Museum.

(Susan confirms.)

Gotcha. So, when this piece was presented to you, it didn’t yet capture the zeitgeist, but the Susan-geist of it was, “Oh my God-or-Whatever, another secret piece of art that got acquired,” without consultation with you.

(Susan confirms.)

And how much did this one go for, David?

Susan: I don’t know!

David: $80.

John Hodgman: Oh, 80 bucks! 80 bucks. But this is not an Agnes Millen Richmond.

David: No. This was an artist that was part of the co-op gallery near Central Park. And she exhibited with Richmond.

John Hodgman: Okay. Genevieve Karr Hamlin. So, she’s part of the larger world of Agnes.

(David confirms.)

Jesse Thorn: Is the piece that you donated to the Huntsville Museum on active display at the Huntsville Museum?

David: Well, it takes months to get a work of art accepted by a museum. They have to go through lots of hoops, and we just got the letter saying that it’s accepted.

[00:30:00]

They’re putting a new HVAC in the museum. I think it’s gonna be closed for three months.

David: But it should be exhibited side-by-side with the other one. And I want there to be an exhibition. That’s my goal.

John Hodgman: Do you have plans to donate the two Richmond oils that you currently own to other museums?

David: Well, I would like to donate the one that Susan loves to the Art Students League in Manhattan.

John Hodgman: Which is the one that you love, Susan?

David: But Susan wants it. She doesn’t want it donated. But she taught there in 1920, and I think they should own the painting, because it’s a teaching painting.

John Hodgman: Well, wait a minute. Susan loves one of these paintings! Which one do you love? Fifteen or Flesh Rocks of Gloucester?

Susan: Fifteen, yes. Not Fleshy Rocks of Gloucester, although he’s talked about donating that one too. (Clears throat.) No, he is talking about donating these paintings now, and I want to keep Fifteen. I’m quite fond of that painting. And that’s a part of all of this is that I like the art. We just are not the sort of people who can just buy expensive works of art and turn around and donate them to museums to make sure that they stay in public collections where they can be seen in perpetuity. So, yeah.

John Hodgman: David mentioned that he has a tin toy collection. How is that kept? Is that in a pile somewhere or in a display case? Is it a hoard or a collection?

Susan: It’s a hoard. There are some things that are set out, but they’re set out in a room that I can hardly walk into, ’cause it’s—well, it’s kind of his office. And so, a lot of things are just stored in boxes in there as well as being on some shelves in there, but not out where people can see them. So, it’s—

John Hodgman: So, he keeps it to his own personal space.

Susan: But a lot of it is—no one can see, even.

John Hodgman: No, he can see it in his mind.

(Susan agrees with a laugh.)

He knows that he has it.

Susan: Yeah, it’s a little bit of a hoard. And he’s been talking about selling these things to fund his other obsessions for a long time.

John Hodgman: What are the other obsessions besides Richmond and tin toys?

Susan: Well, he had a phase of going through collecting drop leaf tables and convincing other people to buy drop leaf tables. And “I’m gonna sell all these toys, and that’ll pay for this.” Or “I want to buy more tin toys, but I’ll sell these older tin toys to pay for the new tin toys.” And yet very few tin toys have ever left the house.

Jesse Thorn: Susan, I hate to interject here. We’re talking a lot about these tin toys when we could be getting some insight into this drop leaf table collection!?

(David laughs.)

John Hodgman: Yeah, I’m a little speechless there, David.

Jesse Thorn: ‘Cause I mean—look, I love it. I love a tin toy. I’m not a tin toy collector myself, but I understand their charms entirely. Like, those lithograph tin toys are very beautiful and evocative and highly collectible. Drop leaf tables—it’s a good kind of table to have, but it’s a tough thing to collect.

Susan: (Chuckles.) It is, and it was a very short-lived but intense obsession.

John Hodgman: David, what is the appeal of drop leaf tables to you, and why should they appeal to me and Jesse?

David: Well, I do have a defense here.

John Hodgman: And in your explanation, I would like to hear the term “vulva”.

(Susan laughs.)

What makes you want to acquire it? Why do you like them so much?

David: I like that they occupy a very, very small space when the leaf is dropped and that you can crowd people around it when you wanna have a bigger group in a small space.

John Hodgman: You like the cleverness and the ingenuity of the construction.

David: Yeah. I love the flexibility, where you can go from tiny to big, and you can expand from two to six—for people.

John Hodgman: You know one way to go from tiny to big is? You take a tiny tin toy, and then get 2,000 more of them.

(Susan laughs.)

David: I’ve done it.

Jesse Thorn: David, your tin toy collection is—I don’t mean to put too fine a point on it—like, almost a commodity. It’s pretty fungible. You could take those tin toys to an auction, and I’m sure you know what the best auction house is for tin toys.

(David confirms.)

You could have one big auction. And you know, you’d have to pay the auction house their cut, but you could collect the money pretty easily. This isn’t something that’s hard to sell if you’re motivated to sell it. So, if you have the idea of selling it, why haven’t you done that?

[00:35:00]

David: Well, Susan wasn’t really entirely forthcoming, because I sold $1,000 in tin toys quite recently.

John Hodgman: Congratulations!

Jesse Thorn: Is that like five tin toys?

(Susan chuckles.)

David: No, they were small cars. They sold for about $50 a piece. It came up to about $1,000.

John Hodgman: Susan, would you like David to liquidate some more tin toys if he’s going to continue buying Agnes Millen Richmond?

Susan: Oh yeah, absolutely.

Jesse Thorn: David, if you took only the tin toys that are not currently on display—only the ones that are in piles of boxes in your office—sent them off Tin Toys Auctions LLC—we’ll say Swann Auction Galleries. They don’t do toys, but shoutout to our friend, Nicholas Lowry. It would be pretty easy. How much money do you think would come back? Assume that the auction house is taking 25%.

David: Yeah, I could probably get $2,000 for the ones that are not on display, and I could probably get another $3,000 or $4,000 for the ones that are on display. And I’m ready to get of all of them.

John Hodgman: So, you’re saying that you’re sitting on—what?—$5,000-$6,000 worth of tin toys?

Jesse Thorn: And John, that’s an auction estimate net. If we’re talking about insurance value—!

(They laugh.)

(Chuckling.) I’m just getting—gotta Roadshow this thing.

John Hodgman: So, David, this is a timely question, right? Because there is an Agnes Millen Richmond piece in the wild that you have your eye on.

David: Yes, but I can’t afford that piece. Somebody else has to buy that.

John Hodgman: Ohhh, what is this piece? There is a photo of it here that you included as Exhibit D. To me, it looks like another Gloucester piece.

David: It is a Gloucester piece.

John Hodgman: Tell me about this piece—why you love it and where is it in the world?

David: It’s in New York. I went to see it recently, in a gallery. Unfortunately, the price is $10,000. I showed it—images of it—to the curators at the Brooklyn Museum and tried to get them to buy it. They have no money. Um. (Laughs.)

John Hodgman: Yeah. Museums are kind of in a bit of a pickle at the moment. So, this is an item that is on display and for sale in a gallery in New York City that you think should be preserved in a museum. You don’t necessarily want it in your home. But in an ideal world—let’s say you tripped over a pile of tin toys and discovered a nugget of gold that was worth $20,000 bucks—that you would acquire this piece and then donate it.

(David confirms.)

To the Huntsville Museum or any museum.

David: I would donate it to the Gloucester Art Museum—Cape Ann Art Museum. That’s where I would donate it.

John Hodgman: But you’re not thinking about acquiring this piece at the moment.

David: Oh, no! I want to get rid of all of my Richmond paintings.

John Hodgman: Susan, let’s go back for a second. When did he—(chuckling) what time of day did he wake you up to inform you that he was about to close a deal on this $2,500 painting of fleshy rocks?

Susan: It was first thing in the morning. Yeah.

John Hodgman: So, you had been up all night, David, negotiating with your best friend?

David: (Giggles.) Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah.

John Hodgman: David, Susan mentioned that it is part of the ethics of an art historian to not deal in art—or at least not purchase or attempt to affect the value of the work that they are studying. And yet you are doing that. Why are you violating your ethics on behalf of Agnes Millen Richmond?

David: Well, it’s an excellent question.

John Hodgman: Thank you! Jennifer Marmor just texted it to me.

(Susan laughs.)

David: Yeah. I need to convince Susan that what we need to do with our art is donate it and not keep it.

John Hodgman: In order to not violate your code of ethics?

(David confirms.)

So, keeping the art that you bought without her consultation or permission—at some great expense—and which she has, all the same, forgiven you for and now has come to love the art, must now leave the home immediately. Or else you’ll go to art historian jail.

(David confirms.)

Well, that’s the way the law works, Susan! I don’t know.

Susan: Well! (Sighs.) But see—and I think you hit on the crux of it. He used—I think that was one of his ways of manipulating me to agree to these things, even if it was after the fact, is that they were going to increase in value and that he never intended to try to sell these for a profit. It was just a way of sneaking it by me!

[00:40:00]

John Hodgman: Wait, do you mean—? He told you that one of the reasons to acquire these pieces was that they were valuable, and they would increase in valuable, but that he would never sell them; he would only donate them? It just doesn’t seem like your story is straight here, David.

David: In a perfect world, I would like to make her so important that museums would buy them from me.

John Hodgman: Got it.

David: That’s not gonna happen in my lifetime, so I’m gonna have to donate them instead.

Jesse Thorn: Speaking of your lifetime—

(David laughs.)

Is there a way to have these paintings in your home and donate them? And look—

David: Maybe.

Jesse Thorn: I’m not implying that any of us is hurtling towards the dark abyss of death. (Chuckles.) I’m just saying, is there a way?

David: Possibly, yeah. It is possible that they could be put into a will. Yeah. That’s possible.

John Hodgman: Susan, of the two oil paintings and the sculpture that sort of reside within—two by Richmond, one associated with Richmond—which of them would you want to keep if given the option? Any? All? One?

Susan: I mean, I would like to keep the original portrait, Fifteen, the original portrait that he bought. And the sculpture, of course. Just from a purely aesthetic point of view, what I want in my house, it would be those two things. And I wouldn’t miss the landscape, the fleshy rocks of Gloucester landscape, as much.

John Hodgman: Are you working on a manuscript? A monograph? A piece of work about—you know, a piece of art history about Agnes Millen Richmond?

David: I have a friend who teaches at Berkeley who’s gonna do the writing, and I’m supplying her with all of my research.

John Hodgman: Oh, okay, great. And this is all part of your scheme to increase the value of Richmond, so museums will want to collect her.

(David confirms.)

And how does this not violate your code of ethics? Or are you just at that period of time in an art historian’s life where you’re just like—

David: (Laughs.) I don’t want the paintings in my house, because I’ll be in art history jail. They have to go to museums.

John Hodgman: Maybe that’s what you deserve for deceiving your wife!

David: Exactly. (Laughs.) True.

John Hodgman: Susan, what do you think is going on here for real with David? Why do you think he loves this stuff so much?

Susan: He has always been an amazing art historian, and in addition to—he’s planning to do more writing himself, but he’s already presented conference papers about this artist at a national conference and a regional conference, and is set up to do some more. So, he’s doing the work. The difference is the way he has turned it into an obsession just to have everything associated with this artist, to buy it. He enjoys the buying part of it. And so, it’s not just Agnes Millen Richmond; it’s artists who were associated with her. Some works of art we haven’t even talked about here. And also, just every vintage magazine and art catalog and books and things like that that he likes—

John Hodgman: That are associated with Richmond.

(Susan confirms.)

Jesse Thorn: David, I don’t have an Artnet subscription, so I can’t look up full auction records. But as I was sitting here, I went to the auction website Live Auctioneers that compiles auctions from across the country—and indeed, across the world to some extent—and looked in their price results. I saw a few dozen of her paintings that have sold in the last decade or so. You know, a not insignificant number. Many of them sold—really good-looking paintings, sold for $200 and $300 and $400, not unlike the one that you bought from Europe.

(David affirms.)

So, why are you buying one that costs $10,000?

David: Oh, I don’t want that one.

Jesse Thorn: Why don’t you just wait until there are more that cost $300, and buy them?

David: Um, it’s a clock thing. I don’t think I’m gonna be alive long enough to get the $300 ones.

Jesse Thorn: Honestly, the first one that you bought, Fifteen, is the most compelling one to me. I’m with Susan on that. It’s tremendous. I’d be thrilled to have that in my house.

John Hodgman: It’s a gorgeous piece, yeah. David, you ever see Avengers: Infinity War?

David: No.

John Hodgman: Alright. But surely you know that in order to acquire the Soul Stone, Thanos had to go to the Planet Vormir.

[00:45:00]

And this is a spoiler for anyone who has not seen this movie, and you should see it. He had to sacrifice—in order to collect the Soul Stone, the red skull told him he had to sacrifice the thing that he loved the most. And he just happened to have his daughter Gamora there, and he threw her over a cliff.

(David makes a thoughtful sound then laughs.)

If you had the opportunity to get this $10,000 Agnes Millen Richmond piece or all of the 250 pieces all in one fell swoop, but you had to throw your beloved—you had to sacrifice your beloved Susan, would you do it?

David: (Laughs.) No, but I would sell my tin toys.

John Hodgman: Alright, I think I’ve heard everything I need to in order to make my decision. I’m going to go into my chambers. I’ll think it over for a moment. I’ll be back in a moment with my verdict.

(David continues giggling.)

Jesse Thorn: Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

(Chairs squeak, followed by heavy footsteps and a door closing.)

Susan, how are you feeling about your chances in the case right now?

Susan: I don’t know. I’m afraid that the judge might be too much of an art lover to really hear my concerns. So, I’m a little worried, but I’m hoping that I’ll at least get some relief.

Jesse Thorn: David, how are you feeling?

David: Well, I think that Judge John Hodgman is an artist, and he understands the importance of funding artists and promoting art to the world in general. That sort of altruism is the most important thing to people like the judge.

Jesse Thorn: We’ll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment.

Sound Effect: Three gavel bangs.

(ADVERTISEMENT)

Sound Effect: Three gavel bangs.

Jesse Thorn: Judge Hodgman, we’re taking a quick break from the case. You know, I run the Put This On Shop at PutThisOnShop.com?

John Hodgman: I do know that!

Jesse Thorn: All summer long—all spring and summer long, indeed—we are launching a new category of new old products every week. So, basically this is what happened; in the Put This On office, we had literally a backlog of hundreds and hundreds of items. Stuff that we had acquired to put in the shop but hadn’t yet listed. We are caught up with that backlog, and we are launching a new category every week. We’ve already done vintage t-shirts, trousers, sunglasses. I think we’re gonna have cuff links right around the corner.

So, every week a new set of stuff at PutThisOnShop.com. So, there is no excuse not to be checking in. Make sure and go sign up for the email list, so you can get an update when a new category launches. We’ll let you know. There’s all kinds of cool stuff. You can also follow the Put This On shop at @Put.This.On on Instagram. All kinds of treasures, not just for dudes! But if you need a gift for a dude in your life, it’s a great place to look. Beautiful antique things and vintage things from all around the world. PutThisOnShop.com.

John Hodgman: Well, Jesse, I love PutThisOnShop.com. It’s a wonderful place to go get gifts for people that you can’t think of gifts for, as well as beautiful things that you have collected. In my life in a couple of days, I will be taking the stage again at the Wilbur Theater in Boston. I’ll be joining those Doughboys for their big Boston show. It’s the 10th anniversary, if you can believe it, of the Doughboys Podcast. I’m very lucky to be invited to join along with the incredible comedian Jon Gabrus. We’re gonna have a great time there at the Wilbur. If it’s not sold out, go sell it out, won’t you? It’ll be nice to see you there!

As well, another friend of our podcast, Paul F. Tompkins, is on the road right now with his Varietopia tour! In coming days, he will be in Fairfield, Connecticut; Westerly, Rhode Island; Albany, New York at The Egg; as well as Revolution Hall, where we’ve played in Portland, Oregon; and the Neptune in Seattle! You won’t wanna miss this incredible live variety show. For tickets and details, go to PaulFTompkins.com/live. Tompkins, of course, is spelled T-O-M-P-K-I-N-S. No, H is in it. No, H as in Tompkins, the H is in Hodgman, the no-H is in Tompkins. That’s how you remember it.

Jesse Thorn: (Sarcastically.) Yeah, classic mnemonic device.

John Hodgman: That’s right. Scroll down a little bit further on that very selfsame page as I just did, and you will learn that The Thrilling Adventure Hour, starring Paul, Paget Brewster, Marc Evan Jackson, Busy Philipps, Joshua Malina, Mark Gagliardi, Craig Cackowski, Autumn Reeser, Annie Savage from Dicktown, Hal Lublin, Janet Varney, and—let’s just say, some special guests!—will be coming back for the first time in a long time to the Bellhouse, here in Brooklyn. The 7PM show is already sold out. 9:30 PM tickets are still available, and then they travel along to London as well. This is also an incredible show that you don’t get to see very often, so go check out PaulFTompkins.com/live for all those details.

[00:50:00]

And get over to PutThisOnShop.com for all the details that you can accoutrement yourself with when you go to see a wonderful show.

Jesse Thorn: Let’s get back to the case!

Sound Effect: Three gavel bangs.

Jesse Thorn: Please rise as Judge John Hodgman reenters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

(Chairs squeak, followed by heavy footsteps and a door closing.)

John Hodgman: Now, it’s long-settled law that the difference between a collection and a hoard is a display case. And Thanos was a collector, not a hoarder, ’cause he had an incredible display case. It was called a gauntlet. He was looking for five space jewels to put them into a gauntlet, so that he could snap his finger and wipe out half of all life in order to make the remaining life happier and more sustainable in a universe of limited resources. That was his idea. The reason why Infinity War and Endgame should, together, have won the Best Picture Oscar both years—because they are true works of art as far as I’m concerned—is that Thanos’s idea was dumb.

Eeeveryone could see that Thanos’s idea was dumb, both in the universe of the films and certainly on the Reddit boards discussing it. Like, if he could snap his fingers—if the issue was limited resources, and collecting all five infinity stones into the infinity gauntlet meant that he could do anything—manipulate time, space, reality, minds, anything!—indeed he could snap his fingers and wipe out all half of all higher life; why couldn’t he snap his fingers, and make the universe twice as big, twice as resourceful? And then—well, then the population will get outta control again. Guess what? (Snaps.) Four times as big. Just keep going! He could have done that if he were rational. But by the time he said, “Fine, I’ll do it myself,” he had long gone past rationality.

The reason that Thanos did what he did, and the reason that his character is so interesting, is that when he was a younger man, he had this idea on Titan—before the infinity stones came up in his mind—to get rid of half of all life on Titan in order to make life bearable in a system of limited resources. And they—the other folks around him—rightly said, “No, you’re outta your mind!” What Thanos was— And then Thanos heard of the infinity stones and said, “Fine, I’ll do it myself.” And went and got those stones and did it. Not because his idea was a good one, but because he had become obsessed. He had had an idea—which by the way, was technically correct; Titan perished because of overpopulation. And his dumb, murderous, horrific scheme might have saved them from that. But he had to do what he did because he had been told he was wrong, and then he had seen that he was right, and he had become so focused on this idea that he could no longer see any alternative. It’s a story of obsession for which he sacrifices a tremendous amount—including his daughter, Gamora.

And this is a spoiler, David, if you haven’t seen it. He also sacrifices your wife, Susan. A weird plot twist.

(David laughs.)

This is what makes the story so compelling to me! That it’s a bad idea, and yet one that he must follow through on. It’s an idea that takes root in his mind. David, you saw—you made contact with a lot of enablers in your journey so far.

(David cackles.)

That best friend at that gallery, your friend in Berkeley who’s writing this thing—whose parents have an inventory of the entire collection. You saw that 250 list of Richmond works and associated works, and that is your infinity gauntlet. You wanna fill it up, even though it causes you pain! Because what you are doing is violating a code of ethics that you take seriously as an art historian. You’re not supposed to be an art collector. You’re supposed to be an art studier. And then you get these things, and you love them, but you don’t want them in your home. Both out of the Indiana Jones principle, “that belongs in a museum,” which was a nice way to explain colonial theft of antiquities.

(They laugh.)

Different thing here. But also, it gives you pain and anxiety, because you know you’re not supposed to be hoarding this stuff. You’re not supposed to be assembling this infinity gauntlet. You know better! You’re supposed to be studying these things. You want to get them.

[00:55:00]

You have the acquisitive impulse. And you wanna let them go. That said—now that that’s clear— Now that you—I think, David—perhaps have some greater insight into yourself than Thanos ever did, you might be able to escape Thanos’s punishment. Which is: it all gets undone, and he sacrifices everything for nothing. And he was wrong, and he feels pain and sadness for losing his daughter. And your wife, Susan. Which is, again, a weird plot twist in a movie.

(David laughs.)

Because frankly, you are now—you are beyond the depths of the universe, where the ethics of the art historian don’t matter anymore. You have a quest. And having a quest is noble, especially if the quest is so noble as “I want to lift up the legacy of this artist, and make her better known, and make her world better known, including the world that she curated for herself and the cooperative where she lifted up other artists.” This is a valuable quest. And once you are able to lay down the fact that you are no longer an art historian in this case, but an advocate and a mad titan—much like Thanos—your hobby no longer becomes acquisition, but rather facilitation of bringing this work to light. Which from time to time means finding work that you can afford and donating it to a museum that you care about.

This is a valuable hobby to have. The reason that I asked if you had a Volvo 240 Diesel Wagon is not because I wanted to peg you into some kind of a cliché—because you remind me, both—and you’re individual, whole human beings in your own right. But you remind me, both of David Rees’s parents, Peg and Phil Rees. Phil was an art librarian at the University of North Carolina and Chapel Hill for years and years. And he passed away two years ago. Peg is still alive, but she was one of the first computer programmers of her generation. Incredible people who lived a vibrant life, well, well into their later life, long past retirement where their hobbies—you know, building houses for Habitat for Humanity—with their hobbies; their engagement in their congregation, the Episcopalian church; their social outreach; and their interests remained as vibrant as they always were.

And I thought, that’s a wonderful way to live. Phil passed away, as I say, a couple years ago. He was 92, and I don’t think he lived an unfulfilled day in his life. This is a wonderful thing for you to be doing in your retirement. And good news! You don’t have a university to be fired from at this time for crossing the line.

(David and Susan laugh.)

So, I think it’s time to drop the pretense of being an art historian and instead embrace the mission and the other pretense—or I should say, the other pain-causing wrinkle that it is time to iron out is: you gotta talk to your wife about this!

(David laughs.)

Like, you have a—this whole problem has a simple solution. You got a bunch of tin toys that you are already over to fund your research, your acquisition, your mission. And also, you have this wonderful wife who is completely understanding that if you talked to her about— Maybe not completely understanding, but has understanding. And if you talked about her and said, “This is what the mission is. These are the funds I have to work with. These are the kinds of things that I want to acquire. I’m not going to (breaks with a laugh) put our house and life in danger. And I want to—and I will confer with you when there are big questions, financial questions, about whether something is within my reach; and how I’m going to fund the purchase of it; and what my plan is beyond that.”

And even listen to your wife too when she says, “Well, I’m not ready to let go of that one. Fifteen is a beautiful piece of art. You put me through this. Let me look at it for a little bit. Put it in the— Figure out another plan for it.” Perhaps you will will it to a museum in the—1,000 years from now when none of us are alive. This whole problem had this solution that you didn’t need me for, right? Which is to drop the complicating factors. Acknowledge what you are, a mad titan with an infinity gauntlet with 250 holes in it that you want to fill up with beautiful jewels of art as best you can and within your means. You’re not someone who’s gonna sacrifice your wife in order to get a piece of art.

[01:00:00]

But you will, instead, consult with her and make her part of the project. I hope, Susan, that will alleviate the concerns and surprises and the feelings of not exactly being heard as David goes forward in this march across the cosmos. But I do essentially find in his favor and enable him to march across the cosmos looking for these works of art, so long as you are doing it in good faith with who you are and the relationship that you share—and you don’t sell your house. This is the sound of a gavel.

 

Clip:

(Dramatic orchestral music.)

Thanos (Avengers: Endgame): I am… inevitable.

(Music swells.)

 

John Hodgman: Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all.

Jesse Thorn: Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

(Chairs squeak, followed by heavy footsteps and a door closing.)

David, how are you feeling in your mad titan-dom?

David: I feel confident that I can complete my mission.

Jesse Thorn: (Laughs.)How do you feel about the ruling, generally?

David: I like it. I like it. I have to do much, much better with Susan, and my therapist agrees, mightily! (Laughs.)

Jesse Thorn: Susan, how do you feel?

Susan: Well, (sighs) if he can, you know, follow the ruling, then I think this is something that can work. It remains to be seen whether or not I have to bring him back for violating the—you know.

(David wheezes a laugh.)

What is that? Like, violating—he’s out on parole right now? I don’t know. But also, I’m pleased, because now I can finally get him to watch Endgame and Infinity War with me.

(Jesse laughs.)

Which I’ve seen, but he’s never seen it, and now he’s going to want to see it. And that’s going to be fun. So, I am looking forward to that unexpected result.

Jesse Thorn: Thank you, Susan. Thank you, David. Thank you both for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

David: Thank you.

Susan: Thank you.

Sound Effect: Three gavel bangs.

Jesse Thorn: Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books. We’ll have Swift Justice in just a second. First, our thanks to Redditor u/OldTechNewSpecs for naming this week’s episode “Objection D’Art”. If you wanna name a future episode, join us on the Maximum Fun subreddit, r/MaximumFun. That’s where we chat about episodes and ask for suggestions for cases.

You can find us on Instagram at Instagram.com/JudgeJohnHodgman. We’re also on TikTok and YouTube at @JudgeJohnHodgmanPod, where you can watch full video of every episode on YouTube and awesome highlights on TikTok. Follow, subscribe, comment if you please. Speaking of commenting, did you know, John, that there are comments enabled on podcast episodes on Spotify?

John Hodgman: Yeah, that’s absolutely true! In fact, one Spotify user—(chuckles) I really enjoyed this comment. I can’t pronounce their name, ’cause it’s spelled 22MS6JVVP3EOBHZW76ED4INA.

Jesse Thorn: (Chuckles.) It’s just their Prodigy email address.

John Hodgman: Yeah. Well, if you’re listening, you know who you are. You wrote, “I know no one cares, but I nailed the obscure cultural reference for once, and I’m so proud.” Hey! We do care! We love it when people guess the cultural references. So, if you’re watching on YouTube, or you’re listening on Spotify or anywhere where you can leave a comment, make sure that you let us know when you got it right. Make sure you let us know if there’s an obscure cultural reference that we should have given, given the nature of the case. We love your comments. We love reading them. We love reading them out loud here on the podcast. And thank you, as always, for listening, sharing, subscribing, liking, commenting, and doing everything—across Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pocket Cast, YouTube, wherever you get your podcast to help people find the show; it really does help.

Jesse Thorn: And this week I’m gonna—I’m making a specific request here this week, John. I thought this was a really fun episode. Email it to somebody,

John Hodgman: Oh, yeah!

Jesse Thorn: Text message it to somebody. Just say, “I bet you—” Think about somebody in your life that maybe loves art; think about somebody that loves not telling their partner about things. (Chuckles.) Think about somebody in your life that might enjoy this episode, and send it over to them, and say, “I bet you would like this episode of Judge John Hodgman. I love that podcast.”

John Hodgman: Yeah! And YouTube makes it really easy to see the evidence. So, if you haven’t been checking out the YouTube, @JudgeJohnHodgmanPod, and you want to see those fleshy rocks of Gloucester in real-time, and then you want to share it with somebody? Just click that share button, and it pops right up. Send them a link. YouTube really is one of the places where people are discovering new podcasts every day, including ours. So, that is really helpful.

[01:05:00]

So, yeah. Email it, send it, send it around.

Jesse Thorn: Judge John Hodgman was created by Jesse Thorn and John Hodgman. This episode, engineered by Judah Walker at Bard and Glass in Huntsville, Alabama. Our social media manager, Dan Telfer. The podcast, edited by AJ McKeon. Our video editor is Daniel Speer. By the way, this week, John?

John Hodgman: Yeah?

Jesse Thorn: Extra thanks to Judah Walker at Bard and Glass in Huntsville, Alabama. I noticed that not only did he engineer that session, but that studio was locked and loaded, ready to go almost 20 minutes before our start of recording time—as opposed to the all-too-frequent situation, which is I hear Jennifer Marmor on the board being like, “Okay, but could you give them headphones to listen in with? Because otherwise there’s gonna be a feedback loop!”

John Hodgman: “I did ask you about supplying microphones at one point.”

Jesse Thorn: Yeah. So, thank you to Judah and Bard and Glass. If you need a studio in Huntsville, it sounds like that’s a great option. Jennifer Marmor is, of course, the producer of this program.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer small disputes with quick judgment. Are you ready, with a quick judgment, John?

John Hodgman: I am ready.

Jesse Thorn: Giggly Anne from the Maximum Fun sub on Reddit says, “My husband takes the trash out every day, even if the bin is not full! I’m not going to ask him to stop, since he does the trash. But I think this is wrong. (Chuckles.) You should only take the trash out if the bin is more than 50% full.” I’m glad they’re drawing a line in the sand at asking him to stop. (Laughs.) They just want the moral position.

John Hodgman: That’s right. One of the classic examples of the great marital conflict between principle and practice. In principle, would it be—I guess—less wasteful of trash bags to wait until it is full before taking it out? I suppose! In practice? Maybe something stinks in there. Maybe it’s just easier for the person who’s doing the work to do that work on a daily—part of their daily routine, rather than wait and wait, Giggly Anne, until you are ready. And in practice, by the way, you’re not doing it! So, you’re wrong. Giggly Anne’s husband gets to do it the way they’re doing it. I’m sorry about the waste of trash bags, but maybe there’s a reason you don’t smell three-day old clam chowder in your house.

Speaking of division of labor between work and hobbies! It was so fun to talk about David’s obsession with Agnes Millen Richmond. That name again is Agnes Millen Richmond. If you want to go and buy a bunch of Agnes Millen Richmond paintings, won’t you let him know? So, at least he can check it off on his checklist of 250 pieces of Agnes Millen Richmond.

But if there’s someone in your life who’s got a hobby that you think is a little too passionate, maybe a little out of control, we want to hear about it. Did your roommate take up tie dye, and now you have buckets of old, smelly water and a bunch of rubber bands all over the place? Does your partner knit cute things for everyone, but not for you? Is there a collection in your home that has creeped too far into the common spaces? Tell me about your hobby disputes at MaximumFun.org/jjho.

Jesse Thorn: And of course, it doesn’t have to be a dispute about hobbies. We take ’em all, and we judge ’em all at MaximumFun.org/jjho. Please! Get in a dispute with somebody, and then send it to us, so that we can have a podcast.

(John chuckles.)

MaximumFun.org/jjho. We’ll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Sound Effect: Three gavel bangs.

Transition: Cheerful ukulele chord.

Speaker 1: Maximum Fun.

Speaker 2: A worker-owned network.

Speaker 3: Of artist owned shows.

Speaker 4: Supported—

Speaker 5: —directly—

Speaker 6: —by you!

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