TRANSCRIPT Ep. 513: A Donut of One’s Own

Transcript

00:00:01	Sound Effect	Transition	[Three gavel bangs.]
00:00:03	Josh Gondelman	Guest	Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm Guest Bailiff Josh Gondelman, filling in for Jesse Thorn. We are in the chambers this week to clear the docket. Please welcome the one-man judicial branch here to settle disagree-mants with his official stance… John Hodgman.
00:00:18	John Hodgman	Host	Well, it rhymes, Josh!
00:00:19	Josh	Guest	[Chuckling] I kinda Hamilton-rhymed it in the middle!
00:00:22	John	Host	Ohhh! You know—uh, Lin will be very happy to hear that. He's a listener to this show.
00:00:25	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
00:00:26	John	Host	Hi, Lin, if you're listening.
00:00:27	Josh	Guest	Hi, Lin!
00:00:28	John	Host	If you're not, I don't blame you. There are a lot of podcasts. This is one of them. [Josh laughs.] Uh, Josh Gondelman, you have a podcast, right?
00:00:34	Josh	Guest	I sure do! It's called Make My Day—
00:00:35	John	Host	Make My Day.
00:00:36	Josh	Guest	—and it's a game show with one contestant each week. So the contestant always wins. Uh, very—
00:00:42	John	Host	The contestant always wins. And I've been—
00:00:44	Josh	Guest	Very low-stress.
00:00:45	John	Host	I've been a guest on that podcast. Josh, you've been a guest on this podcast.
00:00:49	Josh	Guest	Yes! Both things are true.
00:00:50	John	Host	Just, uh, some episodes ago, you were on as a friend of the court to help clear the docket. Back when I was rollicking along up there in Maine.
00:00:59	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm!
00:01:01	John	Host	And you were in New York, where you live. I'm now back in New York. We're joined in Los Angeles by producer Jennifer Marmor. Hi, Jennifer.
00:01:06	Jennifer Marmor	Producer	[Someone shouts in the background.] [Laughing] Hi.
00:01:09	John	Host	There we are! [Josh laughs.] You know, we were chatting before we started the record, and it's always the worst thing to do. Because that's when the best, most exciting podcast material comes out, before you hit record. As Josh pointed out, it was pure—it was pure— [Josh laughs.] It was not even podcast gold. It was pod—podcast doge? What's doge?
00:01:26	Josh	Guest	Yeah. Well, you brought up that it was crypto.
00:01:28	John	Host	Right.
00:01:29	Josh	Guest	More valuable than gold, just by—by volume. I don't know how you measure mass or volume of cryptocurrency.
00:01:34	John	Host	No, no. It's all—it's all currency of the mind.
00:01:37	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm. [Laughs.]
00:01:38	John	Host	Is doge a cryptocurrency? I don't know that one.
00:01:40	Josh	Guest	It is. It's the one with, like, a do—a little corgi on it, I think.
00:01:43	John	Host	We are into ethereum here at JJHo. Ethereum.
00:01:46	Josh	Guest	Oh, okay.
00:01:47	John	Host	We have somebody—we have a recovered ethereum miner among the listenership. Anyway— [Josh laughs.] —Josh Gondelman, you were a guest. A friend of the court, uh, as I mentioned earlier.
00:01:58	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
00:01:59	John	Host	And I don't know that you know this, but we do a lot of research in the Judge John Hodgman podcast.
00:02:04	Josh	Guest	Yeah!
00:02:05	John	Host	So every episode we do, after it comes out, we ask people to do surveys. Uh, you know, when they're downloading it. "Will you stick around for a 25-to-35–minute survey after listening to the podcast?"
00:02:15	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
00:02:16	John	Host	And I would say we have about 99% compliance. Listeners definitely wanna let us know how they feel.
00:02:21	Josh	Guest	Yeah.
00:02:22	John	Host	And then they can fill out—you know, "What did you think? Describe in words…" Especially when we have a guest bailiff. "Describe in words the guest bailiff." I'm gonna tell—I've got the results right here.
00:02:31	Josh	Guest	[Stifling laughter] Mm-hm?
00:02:32	John	Host	And you scored off the charts, Josh.
00:02:33	Josh	Guest	Wow!
00:02:34	John	Host	Very, very popular friend of the court.
00:02:35	Josh	Guest	I feel great about that!
00:02:36	John	Host	Yeah, well—
00:02:37	Josh	Guest	Wait. Off—okay. Off the charts in the good direction. [Stifles laughter.]
00:02:40	John	Host	In the good direc—in the great direction!
00:02:41	Josh	Guest	[Laughs.] Oh, good! Good, good, good.
00:02:44	John	Host	With Josh Gondelman the only direction is up, up, up! [Josh laughs.] Interestingly. That was something that someone said, actually. "Up, up, up. Is he okay? Very energetic. Weird."
00:02:52	Josh	Guest	[Laughs.] Very energetic.
00:02:54	John	Host	Yeah.
00:02:55	Josh	Guest	Uh, almost unpleasantly so.
00:02:56	John	Host	"Full of energy." [Josh laughs.] "Almost mysteriously so." Interesting.
00:03:00	Josh	Guest	[Laughing] Okay.
00:03:01	John	Host	"Seemed to grind his teeth a lot!" I don't know what that's about.
00:03:03	Josh	Guest	That's not true! [Both laugh.]
00:03:06	John	Host	No, that's just referring to a little private joke that Josh Gondelman and I have. [Josh laughs.] He is not—he is not addicted to caffeine.
00:03:13	Josh	Guest	[Stifling laughter] Mm-hm.
00:03:14	John	Host	He's a straight—he's a very—he's a straight—no, everyone said… "Extremely nice. Very warm and engaging. Made me feel great. Nicer than the regular guy." [Josh laughs.] "Should replace Judge John H—" Wow. [Josh laughs harder.] So—oh, this one says, "'Judge Josh Gondelman' is easier to say." That's not true!
00:03:30	Josh	Guest	Not true!
00:03:31	John	Host	But they obv—no. It's hard enough to say "Judge John Hodgman." To add J—Josh… Gondelman…
00:03:35	Josh	Guest	Josh Gondel—no. Unfamiliar—
00:03:37	John	Host	So…
00:03:38	Josh	Guest	Unfamiliar name to most people. More syllables.
00:03:39	John	Host	That's not true. That's not true. That's not true.
00:03:40	Josh	Guest	That's—this is just rude.
00:03:42	John	Host	How dare you, Josh Gondelman?
00:03:43	Josh	Guest	[Laughing] Just rude of them to say that.
00:03:44	John	Host	One of the greatest persons in comedy or any field. Nice pep talker on Twitter. Writer and co-executive producer of the amazing Desus & Mero. Talk about names. Talk about—those are big names. Desus and Mero.
00:03:59	Josh	Guest	Big name—great names!
00:04:00	John	Host	Big, big names. If you're not watching that show, you should watch the show. These—I mean… Hm! Most—I mean, incredible chemistry, those two have.
00:04:08	Josh	Guest	If you are watching the show, you're not off the hook. Keep watching it. You don't—we're—
00:04:11	John	Host	Right!
00:04:13	Josh	Guest	[Stifling laughter] This isn't a shift change. Stay watching it.
00:04:14	John	Host	Right. The show is off the hook. You're on the hook to watch it. [Josh cracks up.] Do they need someone to write taglines? Desus & Mero? I think that sounded pretty cool.
00:04:25	Josh	Guest	That's—[stifles laughter]—for the next season, it's gonna be a poster of you—your face, Judge John Hodgman. Your face.
00:04:31	John	Host	Okay. Yeah?
00:04:32	Josh	Guest	It says, "Desus & Mero."
00:04:33	John	Host	That's right.
00:04:34	Josh	Guest	And then it's, like, a quote in—implied in your voice. That says, uh, "The show is off the hook. But you're on the hook. Dot dot dot… to watch it." [Laughs.]
00:04:43	John	Host	To watch it. That's right! With my face, especially. 'Cause it is definitely… a face that sells podcasts for free. Um, Josh, thank you for joining us again.
00:04:52	Josh	Guest	Thank you for having me again!
00:04:53	John	Host	To be our guest bailiff! Jesse—Jesse's fine, everyone, but he's taking a week away. Josh very nicely accepted our invitation to come in and guest bailiff, and, um… we have a fair amount of chat! We have a fair amount of—not chat, justice to dispense! Do we not?
00:05:06	Josh	Guest	Oh, yeah. Lots of justice!
00:05:07	John	Host	Well, let's get into it!
00:05:08	Josh	Guest	Here's a case from Kurston: "Hello from Worcester."
00:05:12	John	Host	Ohhh! Josh, you are a fellow commonwealthian of Massachusetts, correct?
00:05:17	Josh	Guest	I certainly am, by birth. I'm wearing, currently, a Ben Affleck Dunkin' Donuts— [John snorts.] —uh, painted shirt? I mean, not—the shirt is not painted.
00:05:25	John	Host	Right.
00:05:26	Josh	Guest	But it's based on a painting. Yeah. And, uh—and so, yeah. A—a tremendous allegiance to Massachusetts. [Laughs.]
00:05:31	John	Host	Where, again, are you from in Massachusetts? Will you remind me?
00:05:34	Josh	Guest	I'm from Stoneham, Massachusetts.
00:05:35	John	Host	Stoneham, Massachusetts.
00:05:36	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
00:05:37	John	Host	So you will agree with me: Worcester is terrible.
00:05:39	Josh	Guest	Well, look. I said that once on my podcast, and immediately backtracked, because the people of Worcester—I feel like—I feel like they'll hold a grudge. [Stifles laughter.]
00:05:49	John	Host	Uh… Yeah. That's probably true. [Josh laughs, John stifles laughter.] That's probably true. That's probably when you take the—that's when you take the, uh, shortcut from I-90 to 495 via 295 through Worcester when you're driving north to Maine.
00:05:59	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm. Mm-hm.
00:06:00	John	Host	Everyone—everyone speeds really fast, and it's very scary, 'cause they don't wanna— [Josh laughs.] No, Worcester's lovely!
00:06:06	Josh	Guest	You wanna get—you wanna see someone mad, you tell someone from Worcester you refer to Worcester as Western Massachusetts.
00:06:10	John	Host	Oogh. Look, you wanna see—you wanna see someone mad, just go to Worcester. I think that that's pretty much… [Josh cracks up.] It's Massachusetts talk! Here on the Judge John Hodgman podcast, with Judge Josh Gondelman.
00:06:21	Josh	Guest	We're just kidding. Worcester? (Wuhster.) You're the best-er.
00:06:24	John	Host	Uh, look. Come on—oh! [Both laugh.] One of the great cities to know how to pronounce. [Josh laughs.] Because… it does not spell correctly. Uh—
00:06:32	Josh	Guest	Yeah, the name holds secrets. Which is how it's pronounced. [Both laugh.] City of secrets.
00:06:39	John	Host	Uh, famous for its, uh, Polar soda, its shire sauce—
00:06:42	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm. [Laughing] Mm-hm!
00:06:43	John	Host	—and, uh… Everyone knows it as Mike Birbiglia City! Worcester, Massachusetts.
00:06:48	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm! [Laughs.] That's what it says on the sign on the way in! Mike Birbiglia City. [Both laugh.]
00:06:53	John	Host	Would not surprise me in the least!
00:06:55	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm. [Laughs.]
00:06:57	John	Host	Uh, in any case, [stifles laughter] Kurston lives there with her husband, and she sent this in. Go ahead, I apologize.
00:07:01	Josh	Guest	Yes. "Hello from Worcester," says Kurston. "I originally submitted this to you in 2019 for a live show at the Wilbur Theatre."
00:07:09	John	Host	Oh!
00:07:10	Josh	Guest	"Having heard your desperate pleas for cases recently, I thought I'd dig this one out. There is a very busy intersection near our house, and two possible shortcuts to avoid it. Shortcut A is shorter, but more heavily traveled. So the odds of getting stuck behind other drivers is higher. My husband Chris will always take shortcut B, which is slightly longer. He argues that getting stuck behind drivers is a risk he's unwilling to take. This has been a running argument for 20 years. Please rule on which shortcut is the shortest."
00:07:39	John	Host	Wow. Okay, so, um… I needed to evaluate these two routes. So I asked Kurston to describe them to me. She sent me a map, and labeled them. Shortcut A is blue on the map. This will be available on the Judge John Hodgman show page at MaximumFun.org and our Instagram account at @judgejohnhodgman. And she said, "Shortcut A is blue on the map. It is 0.2 miles and took 51 seconds. Shortcut B is yellow. It is 0.4 miles, and took 70—" Ugh. Feel like this is an SAT question. [Josh laughs.] You know what I—? [Laughs.]
00:08:16	Josh	Guest	I will point out you did this to yourself. [Laughs.]
00:08:18	John	Host	I do everything to myself! [Both laugh.] I was like—
00:08:21	Josh	Guest	We could've just ruled on this on kinda the skeleton of the case. But you, a rigorous judge, requested, uh, an evidentiary exhibit.
00:08:30	John	Host	Well, I love maps. But I didn't expect that I was gonna have to settle a—a logic puzzle with a Worcester theme.
00:08:36	Josh	Guest	And what we're doing now is the hard part, is we're turning a map into out-loud words, which is not how they're meant to be. [Stifles laughter.]
00:08:41	John	Host	Right. So then I—then, after she punished me with exactly what I asked for…
00:08:46	Josh	Guest	[Chuckling] Mm-hm. Yep.
00:08:47	John	Host	I decided to punish her, and re-punish myself. By—
00:08:50	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm. By describing the map out loud.
00:08:53	John	Host	Well, by—I asked them, would they be willing to get in their car, and drive both shortcuts. So that you and I, Josh, could evaluate them. So Jennifer Marmor—uh, able producer Jennifer Marmor, would you please share your screen, so that we can watch shortcut A?
00:09:08	Jennifer	Producer	[A dog barks.] Absolutely.
00:09:10	John	Host	Oh, and hi, George the dog!
00:09:12	Jennifer	Producer	[Chuckles.] It's a real noisy day in my house right now.
00:09:16	John	Host	Life—life goes on, I'm glad to say.
00:09:18	Jennifer	Producer	Yeah! So, okay. Here's shortcut A.
00:09:21	John	Host	Shortcut A!
00:09:24	Clip	Clip	Kurston: Okay. This is—this is the first shortcut. This is shortcut A. This is the shorter shortcut. And so this is—ah! This is a very steep road. There is cars parked on either side. I don't know if you can tell. This is New England, so of course the road is covered in potholes and patches. [Nervous exclamation.] It's a very steep hill! [Laughs.] Oh, good, and this is a good example, too! 'Cause there are two cars in front of us. [Pause.] [Someone laughs quietly.]
00:10:01	John	Host	Whoa. Jennifer Marmor, could you pause it for a second? [Clip audio stops. There's a click.] First of all, I just—you know. I want this to last as long as possible. It's incredible for a—an audio medium. [Josh and Jennifer laugh, John stifles laughter.] Second of—second of all, I just wanted to acknowledge a knowing nod from Josh Gondelman, when Kurston pointed out that the roads are garbage in New England.
00:10:19	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm. Lot of potholes.
00:10:22	John	Host	Third of all, I got a little—as a natural-born rule follower, I got a little freaked out. 'Cause I was pretty sure—I really hope it's not Kurston driving this car and videoing at the same time.
00:10:31	Jennifer	Producer	I also wondered that!
00:10:32	John	Host	I'm a little concerned that it is. Yeah. Josh, what do you think is—do you think she's videoing and…?
00:10:36	Josh	Guest	I—I don't know. I, uh—
00:10:39	John	Host	I hope—let's say not.
00:10:41	Josh	Guest	I—I bet she found a place to, uh—to station the camera that's safe.
00:10:48	John	Host	Yeah. Which would be worse, her driving and videoing at the same time? Or the fact that she videoed in portrait mode?
00:10:53	Josh	Guest	[Laughs.] I know, you gotta put it in landscape, Kurston!
00:10:57	John	Host	Kurston? I'm just joshing you. Oh, that could be a name of a podcast for you, Josh!
00:11:01	Josh	Guest	[Cracks up.] That's, like, my BoJack Horseman sitcom name.
00:11:06	John	Host	That's right.
00:11:07	Josh	Guest	[Laughing] Like he had Horsin' Around.
00:11:09	John	Host	In this case, Josh is joshing, and I'm judging. [Josh laughs.] But I judge you well, because I was—as a natural-born rule follower, I was terrified just now! I thought you were gonna roll through that stop sign. And you can—
00:11:20	Josh	Guest	I also did! I was very worried!
00:11:22	John	Host	Didn't you? Yeah, right?! It was very—I mean, I didn't—I didn't think this would be a suspenseful video! [Laughs.]
00:11:25	Josh	Guest	Hm-mm. And then Kurston came to what my driver's ed instructor would have called an S-T-O-P stop.
00:11:30	John	Host	What's an S-T-O-P stop? Does that stand for something, or is that just emphasized?
00:11:33	Josh	Guest	It is you're supposed to be stopped long enough that you can go, "S-T-O-P" and then keep going.
00:11:39	John	Host	Oh. A Sudden Terminus Of Progress? [Josh cracks up, John stifles laughter.] [Inaudible] stop.
00:11:45	Josh	Guest	It could be a Gradual Terminus Of Progress. A GTOP (guh-top). [Josh and John laugh.]
00:11:49	John	Host	No, you wanna S-T-O-P stop at a stop sign, everybody. Trust me.
00:11:53	Josh	Guest	It does sound, when I said it, like an S-T-O-P stop is, like, a cheer that cheerleaders would do for the opposing team. [John and Josh laugh.] Like, "Oh no! You're beating us too badly! [Clapping on the letters] S-T-O-P! Stop, stop, stop!"
00:12:05	John	Host	Is that—now, look. You are the master of the pep talk on Twitter.
00:12:07	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
00:12:09	John	Host	Is—and cheerleading is full of pep.
00:12:10	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm!
00:12:12	John	Host	I—it's been a long time since I've been to a sporting event. Is there cheer—is there anti-cheerleading?
00:12:16	Josh	Guest	[Laughing] I don't think—
00:12:17	John	Host	Is there gloomleading? Like if you are rooting against the other team?
00:12:21	Josh	Guest	I feel like they usually take the tack of, like—instead of going like, "Hey, other team. Stop kicking our butts so hard!" they would be like, "Hey, our team… Maybe give it a little extra oomph." [Laughs.]
00:12:31	John	Host	Alright. I think we invented another new thing, gloomleading.
00:12:34	Josh	Guest	[Laughs.] That's what the—you can't hear it—you can't hear it, but that is what the cheerleaders in the "Smells Like Teen Spirit" music video are chanting. [All three laugh.]
00:12:47	John	Host	Okay! Jennifer Marmor, play! [Clip audio resumes.] Keep going; I can't wait to see what happens next. [The audio is rumbling.] Mm. Sound quality's terrific. [Someone laughs.] Okay. Here comes another stop sign! [Gasps.]
00:13:02	Josh	Guest	And just nails it!
00:13:04	John	Host	Fantastic.
00:13:05	Clip	Clip	Kurston: Oh, see? And they're gone!
00:13:08	John	Host	Oh, those cars in front of her disappeared!
00:13:11	Clip	Clip	Kurston: And then—and so then occasionally here there'll be some cars backed up. And that's the end of shortcut 1. [Someone laughs.]
00:13:19	John	Host	That's the end of shortcut 1! [Clip audio cuts.] And… exactly per Kurston's, uh, reckoning, that took 51 seconds. Now Josh, I leave it up to you. You've seen shortcut—it's shortcut A, actually. She called it shortcut A and shortcut 1.
00:13:34	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
00:13:36	John	Host	That is the shortcut she prefers.
00:13:37	Josh	Guest	Yes.
00:13:38	John	Host	Are you ready to watch shortcut B?
00:13:40	Josh	Guest	I am.
00:13:41	John	Host	Or have you already come to a decision?
00:13:43	Josh	Guest	No, not yet. I don't—
00:13:44	John	Host	Alright.
00:13:45	Josh	Guest	I think it would be, uh—uh—
00:13:46	John	Host	Prejudicial?
00:13:47	Josh	Guest	Dereliction of duty. [Stifles laughter.]
00:13:49	John	Host	Right. Okay!
00:13:50	Josh	Guest	To rule after just seeing a single shortcut.
00:13:51	John	Host	Right. Okay. So let's roll, uh—this is shortcut B. Shortcut B. And oh, I have—I have a note here that says, uh, the maniacal laughing is their teenage daughter in the backseat, thinking that Kurston and her husband are weird for doing this, and that—I'm very happy to be a part of that.
00:14:08	Jennifer	Producer	I think that answers the question of whether Kurston is recording herself.
00:14:11	Josh	Guest	I think that's true.
00:14:12	John	Host	Could've been different times. I don't know.
00:14:14	Josh	Guest	That's true.
00:14:15	John	Host	It made me nervous. Let's roll on B and see what happens.
00:14:16	Jennifer	Producer	Alright.
00:14:17	Clip	Clip	[Someone is laughing.] Kurston: [Chuckles.] Okay. We're approaching the signal from the same location. So this is the starting point. You'd go right there at the light for shortcut A.
00:14:26	Crosstalk	Crosstalk	John: [Imitates three short tones and then a longer one, as if at the start of a race.] Kurston: And now we're continuing on through shortcut B. John: In pole position language, she's started. [Josh laughs.] Kurston: This is shortcut B. Turning up this road. [Nervous exclamation.]
00:14:33	John	Host	Okay. Look at those great—look at those nice houses. Those nice-sized houses on reasonable-sized plots of land.
00:14:37	Clip	Clip	Kurston: Still—yeah. Still pretty steep. Not quite as steep.
00:14:41	Josh	Guest	The Worcester charm!
00:14:42	John	Host	[Stifling laughter] It is the Worcester charm.
00:14:43	Crosstalk	Crosstalk	Kurston: And still… [stifling laughter] cars parked on the side [inaudible]. John: Pothole-ridden. Leafless trees. Pretty nice houses! [Someone laughs.] Chris: Nowhere near as busy. John: I'm sure they get leaves on their trees at a more seasonably appropriate time. Kurston: [Chuckles.] Nowhere near as busy, right. You are unlikely to find cars coming. Josh: Yeah. That would be so sad if the, just—trees never had leaves on them. [Laughs.] John: This is definitely a much more scenic tour of Worcester, in that you are seeing a lot more of it. Chris: [Inaudible.] Kurston: [Inaudible.]
00:15:03	John	Host	Ooh, look at that gabled beauty! Mm.
00:15:05	Josh	Guest	A lovely home. And a Mike Birbiglia in every pot. [John laughs.]
00:15:13	Clip	Clip	Kurston: I think there's—the sun is right in your eyes.
00:15:15	John	Host	Lot of curb appeal here in Worcester! Alright.
00:15:16	Crosstalk	Crosstalk	Kurston: Okay. So now, this is the road—this is Salisbury Street, the same road that we turned onto. And so that— John: Okay. But that's not the end. Kurston: We're approaching the endpoint of shortcut A. And so where this car is coming out of right now, that's the end of shortcut A. So now this is the end— John: And… checkered flag! Kurston: —point of the two—two, uh, shortcuts converged. Thanks very much.
00:15:37	John	Host	Alright. [Clip audio stops.] For those of you listening who couldn't see, um, how would you describe the experience of shortcut B? Josh?
00:15:45	Josh	Guest	It obviously—so the listeners could tell it takes longer.
00:15:47	John	Host	Yes.
00:15:48	Josh	Guest	It's windier [as in twistier, not gustier], would be the key—the key word.
00:15:49	John	Host	It's windier. I was starting to feel like I was in a little bit of an amusement park situation.
00:15:56	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
00:15:57	John	Host	There were a lot of twists and turns. And I don't get carsick…
00:15:59	Josh	Guest	Lot of twists and—
00:16:00	John	Host	…but that made me a little nervous. However, as I mentioned, there was a lot of—you got to see a lot more homes of Worcester.
00:16:05	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
00:16:06	John	Host	Got a lot of curb appeal going on in that one.
00:16:07	Josh	Guest	And the street did seem smoother.
00:16:10	John	Host	It seemed smoother? Less—yeah? Interesting.
00:16:11	Josh	Guest	Fewer—yeah. Fewer bumps.
00:16:13	John	Host	Yeah. Well, I can tell you which one works better for podcast purposes, Kurston, pretty clearly. The 51-second one. [Josh cracks up, John chuckles.]
00:16:23	Josh	Guest	[Laughing] Which… video works better for showing on the podcast? The one that takes less time for the listeners!
00:16:31	John	Host	I mean, it is—it is literally the shortest cut.
00:16:33	Josh	Guest	Yeah.
00:16:34	John	Host	Right?
00:16:35	Josh	Guest	Yep.
00:16:36	John	Host	But I guess Kurston's husband's—Chris's argument for shortcut B is that sometimes shortcut A, you'll get stuck behind some, uh—some pokey neighbors in their cars.
00:16:45	Josh	Guest	Yeah. It does seem like you're gonna end up making a left turn from the stop sign into—you know, across a lane of traffic. So I can see that being tricky.
00:16:55	John	Host	Which one would you take, Josh Gondelman? Personally.
00:16:58	Josh	Guest	[Sighs.] I—you know? I think personally I'd be a shortcut B guy. Because I like—
00:17:04	John	Host	Whoa!
00:17:05	Josh	Guest	I like the consistency. However—
00:17:09	John	Host	Tell me more! What do you mean, you like the consistency?
00:17:11	Josh	Guest	Because I like knowing that it's gonna be that smooth, windy, 71-second journey every time. Right?
00:17:19	John	Host	Mm-hm.
00:17:20	Josh	Guest	I think—me, I'm not the—I'm not a rambling, gambling type. So if you are kind of the—a wild… gambler, uh, knowing when to hold them, knowing when to fold them, I would suggest shortcut A. Because the upside is you save those 23 seconds.
00:17:37	John	Host	Right. Unless you get stuck behind a couple of slowpokes.
00:17:40	Josh	Guest	Exactly. Yep.
00:17:41	John	Host	And then it's all over. You just blew it.
00:17:44	Josh	Guest	Yeah.
00:17:45	John	Host	Right. Okay. Well… Sorry. This is—this is very hard, Josh! This is a very hard one for me. I'm sorry. I gotta say. It's—'cause I don't wanna go against—I'm looking at the map now, is the thing.
00:17:58	Josh	Guest	Yeah.
00:18:00	John	Host	And there is no question that shortcut A—blue route—is much, much more direct. Now, I don't—
00:18:06	Josh	Guest	It's about 50% the length.
00:18:07	John	Host	Right. I mean, I don't wanna, uh—I don't wanna triangulate exactly where these people live in Worcester.
00:18:13	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
00:18:14	John	Host	But shortcut A is just basically a straight shot along Sagamore Road.
00:18:18	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
00:18:19	John	Host	And I like to say "Sagamore" because that was the—that was the name of our high school newspaper. In Brookline, Massachusetts.
00:18:23	Josh	Guest	Oh, nice!
00:18:24	John	Host	Yeah. Whereas you—you're going—you're whipping down Waconah Road, taking a hard left on Whitman Road, and then a right on Salisbury Street. These are all some pretty cool New England–named streets.
00:18:37	Josh	Guest	Yeah. Very New England–y. I do love to hear the street names.
00:18:41	John	Host	There is something counterintuitive about saying that the shortest cut is not actually the shortest cut!
00:18:46	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
00:18:47	John	Host	And it went—it went shorter this time around, Kurston!
00:18:50	Josh	Guest	Yep.
00:18:51	John	Host	I mean, that speaks to your argument! But I guess I—I personally—I probably would take that Waconah Road, Whitman Road… ramble as well. 'Cause I'm a rambling kind of guy. Not a gambler.
00:19:05	Josh	Guest	[Laughing] Just a rambler!
00:19:06	John	Host	Are you a gambler, or a rambler? I guess is what it comes down to.
00:19:09	Josh	Guest	[Laughs.] I don't buy into the rambler/gambler binary. [Josh laughs, John stifles laughter.]
00:19:15	John	Host	I don't like to split a decision.
00:19:17	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
00:19:18	John	Host	So I have to say the shortest—I mean, unless we have a lot of data. And you know Judge John Hodgman is famous for its data.
00:19:24	Josh	Guest	[Laughing] Mm-hm!
00:19:27	John	Host	It's really just impossible to say! Because the—the shortest cut was the shortest cut! It was shorter than the other one!
00:19:33	Josh	Guest	Yeah. It's tough to—for us to rule otherwise on what might happen. Right?
00:19:41	John	Host	Right. Right. So—and we have no predict—we have no statistical analysis. So this is what I would say. Kurston? Uh, run this experiment… a hundred and fifty more times. [Josh cackles.] Uh, get me the data. [Both laugh.] You're under no—it's no rush. Just do it 150 more times. Video it 150 more times.
00:20:01	Josh	Guest	[Laughing] This is a 20-year–long argument! There's no rush!
00:20:04	John	Host	[Laughs.] But until then, even though Josh and I—and understand why Christ prefers shortcut B, the longer cut, I have to rule just with—on the side of science. And the evidence it has given to me. Shortcut A is the shorter cut. If that is what you're trying to look for! A shortcut!
00:20:23	Sound Effect	Sound Effect	[Three gavel bangs.]
00:20:25	John	Host	Shortcut B, it seems a more—it's a more leisurely drive.
00:20:27	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm. But both—
00:20:28	John	Host	Shortcut A is the fast—fast one.
00:20:29	Josh	Guest	Both shorter than the long way around.
00:20:32	John	Host	Oh, forget the long one! You're gonna go all the way around the Harry Goddard house, whatever that is?! No way! [Josh laughs quietly.] I don't wanna get anywhere near that American Antiquarian Society that I see on this map. Ugh!
00:20:42	Josh	Guest	I have places to go! I have a life to live! [Both stifle laughter.] You think I'm gonna spend, as Mary Oliver would put it—the poet, the late poet—uh, my one wild and precious life driving around the Harry Goddard House? I shan't!
00:20:53	John	Host	No. Josh shan't, nor shan't I. [Josh laughs quietly.] Shortcut A, until I see that data from 150 trial runs— [Josh laughs harder.] —of both! Of both run—of both routes! Don't split it up! It's not 75/75. Three hundred total. [Josh bursts out laughing.] I want all video, and I want—[laughs]—and I want that to be a special podcast by the end of the year. There is a rush, actually. [Stifles laughter.]
00:21:13	Josh	Guest	End of the year.
00:21:14	John	Host	End of 20—yeah. End of 2021. I just wanna run audio of— [Josh laughs.] That's a hundred and fi—so they're both—roughly, they're about a minute, each one. So that would be 300 minutes. Of driving in Worcester.
00:21:28	Josh	Guest	There is kind of also a lovely—with 300 trips, a lovely ASMR quality, if listeners are interested in that.
00:21:35	John	Host	I think it would be incred—I—I would—I would listen to that in the car! Isn't that weird? [John laughs quietly, Josh cracks up.]
00:21:41	Josh	Guest	You would layer it on top of—
00:21:43	John	Host	Yeah!
00:21:44	Josh	Guest	—your own car sounds.
00:21:45	John	Host	That's right! Next time I—
00:21:46	Josh	Guest	Kind of a Phil Spector production style. [Both laugh.] A Wall of Ground, they call it.
00:21:51	John	Host	A Wall—[cracks up]. Doesn't get better than Josh. [Josh cracks up.] Doesn't get better than Josh Gondelman when it comes to a Phil Spector pun. Doesn't get better. Just Joshing! With Josh! Let's move on.
00:22:05	Josh	Guest	Here's something from Derek, from Willimantic, Connecticut.
00:22:08	John	Host	Mm.
00:22:09	Josh	Guest	"My partner, three friends, and I stopped at Voodoo Doughnuts in Denver, Colorado, while road-tripping across the US in college. The shop is known for its unique flavors—Cap'n Crunch, Oreo, Bubblegum, etc.—and we bought a dozen assorted, each a unique flavor. No doubles. This instigated a fight that lasts to this day. My partner thought that each donut should be split evenly, so everyone can have a taste of each kind. I appreciate the sentiment, but I think the best way to eat a donut is to eat the whole donut. If I wanted to eat bites of donuts, I'd buy Timbits."
00:22:42	John	Host	Timbits, I believe, are Canadian… Munchkins, right?
00:22:46	Josh	Guest	Yeah. They're the Tim Hortons of the American—
00:22:48	John	Host	Of the—the donut hole. Generically speaking.
00:22:51	Josh	Guest	Right.
00:22:52	John	Host	Dunkin' Donuts owns the copyright to Munchkins, is that correct?
00:22:57	Josh	Guest	I believe so.
00:22:58	John	Host	So you're a Dunkin' Donut partisan. Correct?
00:23:00	Josh	Guest	I am. I love a—
00:23:02	John	Host	So what do you think about these Voodoo Doughnuts?
00:23:05	Josh	Guest	I like a fancy donut, but it's a different thing. Right? Like, I wouldn't—I wouldn't go there and just be like, "Well, uh, I guess I'll just grab one of these decadent Oreo cookie donuts as, like, a companion for my morning coffee."
00:23:19	John	Host	Right.
00:23:20	Josh	Guest	[Stifling laughter] Because then for lunch, I would have a three-hour nap.
00:23:23	John	Host	[Laughs.] And also some of those fla—like… Hm. I don't think anyone wants to eat a whole bubblegum donut.
00:23:30	Josh	Guest	No! It seems more like a—like you taste it, and then you go, "Oh, yeah! It does taste like a bubblegum!" [Laughs.]
00:23:36	John	Host	Yeah. Novelty! Novelty donuts! Whereas a Dunkin' Donut is a workaday pastry.
00:23:42	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm. A blue-collar donut.
00:23:44	John	Host	When—
00:23:45	Josh	Guest	And occasionally a blueberry donut! [Both laugh.]
00:23:48	John	Host	You eat a donut from time to time, right, Josh?
00:23:49	Josh	Guest	I'll eat a donut from time to time!
00:23:51	John	Host	You ev—you go on a road trip, back when such a thing was possible—
00:23:53	Josh	Guest	Sure.
00:23:54	John	Host	—and you'll go on one again when it's possible again?
00:23:56	Josh	Guest	Definitely.
00:23:57	John	Host	You're in a bar—you're in a car with some friends, you stop and get some novelty donuts. You got 12 different wackadoo flavors. What's—what—
00:24:05	Josh	Guest	Such as mohair. And— [Both laugh.]
00:24:09	John	Host	Mohair and—
00:24:10	Josh	Guest	Birch!
00:24:11	John	Host	Mohair—there's a mohair one and a cardigan one, weirdly.
00:24:12	Josh	Guest	[Laughing] Mm-hm!
00:24:13	John	Host	They split 'em up! [Laughs.] And double—double mohair. What are some of the other flavors? I can't think of anything.
00:24:19	Josh	Guest	[Laughs.] Oh, you get your mohair, you get your double mohair, you get your cardigan.
00:24:22	John	Host	Yeah.
00:24:23	Josh	Guest	Uh, you get your sycamore. Uh—
00:24:24	John	Host	I only got cardigan 'cause you're wearing one, of course.
00:24:26	Josh	Guest	[Chuckling] Mm-hm.
00:24:27	John	Host	I was about to say Post-It Note flavor, 'cause I'm looking at stuff on my desk.
00:24:28	Josh	Guest	[Laughs.] Just like how, uh—how a character comes up with an alias in a 90s thriller.
00:24:35	John	Host	Oh! It's like how, like, eight or nine-year-old John Hodgman, hanging around in my house with, uh, my oldest friend Damon Graff, and Damon Graff was telling me all about his imaginary friend Fred. And I said, "Well, I have an imaginary friend." And Damon said, "Yeah? What's his name?" And I said, "Uhhh… Windowsill." [Josh cracks up, John chuckles.] True story.
00:24:56	Josh	Guest	Ooh! Oh! From the, uh—from the Connecticut Windowsill family! [Both laugh.]
00:25:03	John	Host	Oh, Josh. Too many tangents, Josh! TMTs!
00:25:07	Josh	Guest	[Laughing] TMT!
00:25:09	John	Host	You're in a road trip. You get some novelty-flavored donuts. You're in the car. Your instinct, Josh. Your preference. Not what's right or what's wrong. Do you want a whole bubblegum donut? You know, I won't even throw you the bubblegum.
00:25:26	Josh	Guest	Yeah, give me one that you—that—that a person might eat a whole donut of. [Laughs.]
00:25:30	John	Host	You want a whole maple-glazed?
00:25:32	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
00:25:33	John	Host	Or a little taste of maple-glazed, Oreo, and Cap'n Crunch, and… whatever?
00:25:37	Josh	Guest	I'm a little taste guy.
00:25:39	John	Host	You're a little bites! Little bites, right?
00:25:41	Josh	Guest	Little bites! Yeah. Especially when it's an assortment of novelty donuts. If it was like, "Everyone make an order," right?
00:25:47	John	Host	Right.
00:25:48	Josh	Guest	And I was like, "Oh, I'd like a blueberry-glazed donut, please."
00:25:49	John	Host	Right.
00:25:50	Josh	Guest	And then everyone—someone goes, "Let's do little bites," it's like, "That was not the deal."
00:25:54	John	Host	Right. Right! Yeah, no. Well, the problem was they had not made a deal. They went in—they went in recklessly.
00:26:00	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
00:26:01	John	Host	They ordered it—an assorted dozen. And then they just started driving.
00:26:03	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
00:26:04	John	Host	I guess they were—you know. They didn't think about it. They didn't stop and think. This might—
00:26:06	Josh	Guest	[Laughing] Like Thelma and Louise themselves!
00:26:09	John	Host	[Laughs.] Exactly. Exactly so! Oh, "Sad PS, we drove over a cliff." Weird. I didn't see that part. [Josh cracks up.] I guess they're okay, though. I did ask Derek how—'cause this did happen. And I was curious how they decided to resolve the situation in the moment. And he wrote back: "After negotiating which donuts we could eat and which we wouldn't mind missing out on, two of us were able to have one whole donut each." The two who wanted a whole one each got their own. He had the Oreo donut. And it was delicious. Of course it is.
00:26:43	Josh	Guest	Yeah.
00:26:44	John	Host	But he also wrote: "Interestingly, the women in the car wanted to split, and the men all wanted to eat a whole donut. And since then we've seen similar trends when polling our friends." See, it's all about the data, Josh. It's all about the data.
00:26:55	Josh	Guest	This is a data-driven—you're one of the leading podcasts in data-driven podcast… metrics.
00:27:00	John	Host	Oh, we drill down the numbers. And—
00:27:02	Josh	Guest	[Laughs.] Your—this podcast is the—the subject of the famous Michael Lewis book Moneypod. [Laughs.]
00:27:10	John	Host	Yeah. Ex—[laughs]. So let's take—get some more data! Jennifer Marmor! According to Derek, there is a… gender role breakdown! Uh, between who wants to split a donut and who wants a whole donut. Uh, I guess bec—due to male whole donut anxiety. [Josh laughs quietly.] They're afraid they can't have the whole thing, it'll make them less… lesser, somehow.
00:27:34	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
00:27:35	John	Host	But. Without—Jennifer Marmor. What is your gut instinct? You want a whole donut, in this situation? One whole novelty donut? Or parts of multiple novelty donuts? [Pause.]
00:27:46	Jennifer	Producer	This is a tough one.
00:27:47	John	Host	Oh!
00:27:48	Jennifer	Producer	'Cause if—[laughs]—we, uh—when we were working in the office during… normal working-in-the-office time, uh, not often, but a lot of times, somebody would bring in donuts from a novelty donut place.
00:28:04	John	Host	Mm-hm.
00:28:05	Jennifer	Producer	They also have normal donuts that aren't novel.
00:28:06	John	Host	Mm-hm.
00:28:07	Jennifer	Producer	California Donuts in Koreatown.
00:28:11	John	Host	Oh!
00:28:12	Jennifer	Producer	And they have just really great, fun donuts. They have, like, an Oreo donut that looks like a little panda. Love it.
00:28:18	John	Host	Sounds good!
00:28:19	Jennifer	Producer	It is good. And… in that situation, I would probably do… do a split. You know, I—I'd like a little piece.
00:28:30	John	Host	Do a split.
00:28:31	Jennifer	Producer	Just because it's… a lot. I'm also—it's just a lot of donut! And I don't know if I wanna—it's not even about the anxiety of, uh, splitting it or whatever. It's just too much donut for me. But, you know, if it was just a regular… maple glaze. Whole donut. And also, if they're in the car, I wouldn't wanna deal with splitting, like—
00:28:53	Josh	Guest	Sure.
00:28:54	Jennifer	Producer	Because it's—feels like a hassle.
00:28:55	John	Host	Oh, so wait a minute. Now you're saying—you—now you're leaning—if it's in the office… of Maximum Fun…
00:29:01	Jennifer	Producer	Yeah.
00:29:02	John	Host	…you want—you want little donuts.
00:29:04	Jennifer	Producer	Yeah.
00:29:05	John	Host	If it was in the car, you want a whole donut.
00:29:06	Jennifer	Producer	Yeah. 'Cause I don't wanna deal with, uh—
00:29:09	Crosstalk	Crosstalk	Josh: For ease of—ease of sharing. John: Ugh. Our numbers are all over the place.
00:29:11	Jennifer	Producer	I know. It's—it's not help—I'm not giving a helpful answer, but that's how I feel.
00:29:16	John	Host	Well, look. We just blew the stats, 'cause I'm a—I'm a little bit of donut guy.
00:29:19	Crosstalk	Crosstalk	Jennifer & Josh: Mm-hm.
00:29:20	John	Host	And I'm—and I am, arguably, a guy. Th—arguments have been made that I'm male. [Josh laughs.] So we've just reversed all of your data, Derek.
00:29:29	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
00:29:30	John	Host	I think that, uh, the obvious answer here, is split 'em up!
00:29:33	Josh	Guest	Yeah!
00:29:34	John	Host	In this context, you should've split 'em up, Derek.
00:29:38	Josh	Guest	Or if you wanted a donut of your own—[laughing] a donut of one's own to enjoy—
00:29:42	John	Host	Yeah!
00:29:43	Josh	Guest	—you order that separately. You can't order family-style, and then stake a claim to a—a whole donut.
00:29:51	John	Host	[Laughs.] "I want all of that big, big platter of spaghetti and meatballs."
00:29:54	Josh	Guest	Yeah!
00:29:55	John	Host	"You can have the salad."
00:29:57	Josh	Guest	You can't do that! Right! Yeah.
00:29:58	John	Host	'Cause what your friends won't tell you, Derek, is you got that Oreo donut… and you left a bubblegum sitting out there. Everyone—of course the Oreo donut was delicious! That's a delicious, time-tested flavor! In any sort of sweet—sweet-treat capacity. But a bubblegum pastry?! Bleugh. Like, that's just—that's novelty for the sake of novelty, and it's gross. And, yeah. I understand why you wanted to eat a whole Oreo donut. Here's what your friends weren't telling you: They all did! But you—but you—I—they all just sort of went along with it. "Derek wants the Oreo. Fine, let's just keep going. We—we have another—[stifles laughter]—we have another 900 miles to drive with this guy." [Josh laughs.] I'm sure you're very sweet, Derek. No, don't—don't get me wrong. But in this context… You're in a—you're on a road trip. You're out to experience the world! You're not ordering in from the—the donut place in Koreatown at Maximum Fun Headquarters that you can order in from any day you like. You're not going to your regular donut place.
00:30:56	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
00:30:57	John	Host	You're going to a place that—you know. I think there are other Voodoo Doughnuts in the world, but it's like, you're zooming through Denver, the Mile High City. "Let's get these wackadoo donuts. Let's just be wild! Let's get a—an assorted dozen." And then you're driving on, and who knows when you're ever gonna go back there again? Don't just eat the Oreo! Sample life!
00:31:15	Sound Effect	Sound Effect	[Three gavel bangs.]
00:31:16	Josh	Guest	And… let the Oreo into other people's hearts and mouths.
00:31:21	John	Host	Yeah. Josh, when we get to go on a road trip again, uh, where are we going? And by "we" I mean… "we as humans." …No! You and me! You pick a road trip for you and me.
00:31:31	Josh	Guest	[Chuckling] Alright! Um—
00:31:32	John	Host	I just—it was—and genuinely, it was a personal question that I turned into a weird—a weird personal request. [Both stifle laughter.]
00:31:39	Josh	Guest	Well, my first—my first road trip is, um, just before I'm, like—my vaccines are, um, fully… engaged?
00:31:48	John	Host	Yeah.
00:31:49	Josh	Guest	Before thrusters engage on the full vaccines. I'm gonna rent a car and go visit my parents in Massachusetts.
00:31:55	John	Host	Nice.
00:31:56	Josh	Guest	I haven't seen them since, um, Christmas 2019.
00:31:58	John	Host	That's nice.
00:31:59	Josh	Guest	So I'm very excited to see them. Um, you and I—
00:32:01	John	Host	But that's a destination.
00:32:03	Josh	Guest	Yes.
00:32:04	John	Host	And the correct choice!
00:32:05	Josh	Guest	Thank you.
00:32:06	John	Host	And I will go with you, obviously.
00:32:07	Josh	Guest	[Laughs.] Yeah! That's what I was gonna say.
00:32:09	John	Host	Yeah.
00:32:10	Josh	Guest	You will join me and my wife Maris—[laughs]—
00:32:11	John	Host	Yeah!
00:32:12	Josh	Guest	—to visit my parents. Big—they're big fans.
00:32:14	John	Host	Love Maris. Love her podcast, The Maris Review. Best name in podcasts. [Josh laughs, John stifles laughter.]
00:32:19	Josh	Guest	[Laughing] My parents would be very excited and surprised to see you.
00:32:22	John	Host	I would be—I'd be thrilled to meet them! What are their names?
00:32:25	Josh	Guest	Uh, David and Ellion.
00:32:27	John	Host	Would—do they like to be called by their first names? Or is it, uh, a Mr. and Mrs. Gondelman situation?
00:32:32	Josh	Guest	I—I think at the age that we're at now as adults, I think that they're okay with that. With first names.
00:32:37	John	Host	I'm gonna Mr. and Mrs. Gondelman them. I think that's what I'm gonna do.
00:32:38	Josh	Guest	I think they would appreciate that extra mile! I call—I still go "Mom and Dad."
00:32:45	John	Host	…Yeahhh, I—I wouldn't feel comfortable with that myself, but, uh, Mr. and Mrs. Gondelman's good.
00:32:48	Josh	Guest	[Laughing] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that was not a suggestion!
00:32:50	John	Host	[Stifling laughter] Oh, I'm sorry, I misunderstood. [Josh is cracking up.] I thought maybe we were gonna trick them into thinking we were brothers.
00:32:54	Josh	Guest	[Laughing] If you want to—they are used to answering to "Mom and Dad," so it'd put them at ease if you would call them that.
00:33:00	John	Host	No. I'm gonna call them Mr. and Mrs. Gondelman. And guess what's gonna happen, Josh?
00:33:04	Josh	Guest	They'll be charmed!
00:33:05	John	Host	Before I leave town!
00:33:07	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm?
00:33:08	John	Host	I'll be dropping into a local Stoneham, Massachusetts mailbox, a handwritten thank-you note. [Josh exhales sharply.] And they will love me more than you. [Josh sighs.] Let's move on. Let's go to a break.
00:33:20	Josh	Guest	Wait—okay—[cracks up].
00:33:24	John	Host	[Stifling laughter] No? Not ready for a break?
00:33:26	Josh	Guest	[Laughs.] I was just gonna ask—they'll love you more than I love you, or more than they love me? [Laughs.]
00:33:31	John	Host	They're gonna be like, "John Hodgman is a sweet guy. He's not as mean as everyone said he was. He deserves to keep his podcast." [Josh laughs, John stifles laughter.] "Josh has his own podcast. Don't take over the Judge John Hodgman podcast, Josh."
00:33:44	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
00:33:45	John	Host	"Please. He wrote us a handwritten thank-you note. It's a true—" [Josh laughs quietly.] "It's a truly wonderful gesture that not enough people do." Thanks for the inspiration, Jon Kimball. Now let's go to a break! We'll be back with more cases to clear from the docket… on the Judge Josh Gondelman podcast. What?! How come you wrote that?!
00:33:59	Josh	Guest	[Chuckles.] Well…
00:34:01	John	Host	Jennifer Marmor's already updating the text—the template!
00:34:04	Josh	Guest	[Laughing] We gotta give the people what they want! [John sighs.]
00:34:07	Sound Effect	Transition	[Three gavel bangs.]
00:34:09	Jesse Thorn	Promo	As always, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, brought to you by you, our members. All the good folks who've gone to MaximumFun.org/join. Also supported this week by Ruby Coffee Roasters.
00:34:21	John	Promo	Ruby Coffee Roasters is a small coffee-roasting company based in Nelsonville, Wisconsin, population 191. Could it get more charming?! A lot of people would just say, "Alright, send me the coffee. You got me, Nelsonville, Wisconsin." They might not even know or care that the coffee they're getting… [stifling laughter] is incredible coffee!
00:34:38	Jesse	Promo	[Stifling laughter] Yeah.
00:34:39	John	Promo	Sourced from a variety of direct relationships with farmers, and small coffee import/export companies who work directly with small farmers. And the main thing is it tastes and smells fantastic!
00:34:48	Jesse	Promo	We connected with Ruby Coffee because I basically typed into the Internet one Christmas, "Best coffee," or something like that.
00:34:54	John	Promo	Sure.
00:34:55	Jesse	Promo	My wife is a coffee nut. And I wanted to get her something that she would like for the holiday. And I found Ruby Coffee. It sounded amazing. I ordered it, and it came… with a little gift, and a little note that said, "Hey, guess what? I'm a MaxFun member. I'm one of the small group of employees [stifles laughter] at this small coffee roaster, and I can't believe that you ordered from us. Thank you very much!" And so we talked to them, and said, "Hey. Listen. How about we trade? You guys provide the coffee for our homes and our office," when our office was open, "and, uh, we'll give you some spots on MaxFun shows?" and they said yes, and it was such a success that this company that literally didn't have a marketing budget before has actually paid us for some ads, because MaxFunsters have responded so strongly to this great coffee!
00:35:43	John	Promo	It's all roasted to order; it's always fresh when it arrives on your doorstep; it comes in the mail. You're never wanting for coffee. You mentioned, Jesse, that the Maximum Fun offices… for understandable reasons, have been closed. I can only imagine that it—that all of the office is now just filled with Ruby Coffee packages. Like, floor to ceiling.
00:36:03	Jesse	Promo	[Laughs quietly.] There's also—one of the things that they make is, uh—this is the first I've ever heard of it, but basically, artisanal instant coffee.
00:36:11	John	Promo	Yeah.
00:36:12	Jesse	Promo	You can have it in your purse, have it in your dopp kit when you're traveling.
00:36:15	John	Promo	Right.
00:36:16	Jesse	Promo	Have it so that whenever you need some decent coffee, you always have great coffee on hand.
00:36:21	John	Promo	Yeah! Say you're on the road. Say you're nowhere near Los Angeles. Say you don't have time to… break into the empty MaxFun offices and grab some sample Ruby Coffee in a—in a coffee heist! [Jesse laughs quietly.] Look. It's good coffee, and they're nice people! Go to RubyCoffeeRoasters.com, and use discount code "JJHO" to get 20% off your first shipment of any subscription.
00:36:43	Jesse	Promo	Or 15% off a one-time coffee purchase! That's RubyCoffeeRoasters.com.
00:36:50	John	Promo	Go to RubyCoffeeRoasters.com. Don't break into the empty MaxFun offices to try to steal coffee in a coffee heist. [Jesse laughs quietly.] It sounds like fun, but it's not nice for anybody!
00:37:00	Sound Effect	Transition	[Three gavel bangs.]
00:37:02	Josh	Guest	Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. This week, we're clearing the docket. I'm your guest bailiff, Josh Gondelman. Here's a case from Lance in Twinsburg, Ohio: "My partner Amy and I often have disputes about whether fantasy worlds in books and games take place on other planets. I contend they do take place on other planets, especially if a map is included, or the creators describe geographic features that do not exist on Earth. For example, the Yatil (yuh-TEEL) Mountains in Greyhawk from Dungeons & Dragons." Uh, I almost said "Yattle Mountains," but that sounds very Yiddish. [John laughs, Josh stifles laughter.] More Yiddish than I imagine Dungeons & Dragons is—
00:37:35	John	Host	You gave—you gave it some good fantasy world sauce on it. The Yah-TIL…
00:37:38	Josh	Guest	Thank you!
00:37:39	John	Host	Yeah.
00:37:40	Josh	Guest	"Amy says it's just a fantasy world, and it exists without any other needed context. I ask the court to rule that I may call fantasy worlds 'planets', and that Amy does not roll her eyes when I do."
00:37:50	John	Host	Mm! Mm! A case that tests the tension. Between fantasy and science fiction.
00:37:59	Josh	Guest	[Laughing] Mm-hm.
00:38:00	John	Host	[Laughs.] Two—two genres often lumped together.
00:38:03	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm!
00:38:04	John	Host	By their own choice! [Josh laughs.] For protection against the world.
00:38:08	Josh	Guest	[Laughing] They stand back to back, and… gently cower against one another.
00:38:14	John	Host	Did I ever tell you that I was the—the host of the Nebula Awards? Which is one of the top-tier awards for fantasy and science fiction writing in the United States?
00:38:24	Josh	Guest	I don't think we've spoken about it, but wasn't it in your book Medallion Status?
00:38:27	John	Host	It was. And in Medallion Status, I wrote about how we were all in this hotel in Chicago together. And there was this huge, like, signing. All of the science fiction and fantasy writers, and me, were signing books in one big ballroom. And then down a short hallway, in another big ballroom, a local—I think Catholic school was having its prom. [Josh chuckles, John stifles laughter.] And during the signing, I kinda had to take a break, and I left this room full of older science fiction and fantasy writers, just—and just—and just felt drawn towards the pumping bass of this high school prom. [Josh laughs.] And all these beautiful—you know, young people, in their rented tuxedos and gowns. Some of them had come out to take a breather from all the dancing, and all the incipient hugging and kissing that was gonna happen, and they were just, like, full of—of life, and energy! And just in their—in their exhalation, in their moment of rest, they had more energy than I'll ever have in the rest of my life. [Josh chuckles.] And every now and then, a couple of them—one of them would catch my eye. And they would see this… withered, weird, half-bearded old man. [Josh laughs, John stifles laughter.] Sharing their universe for a moment. And I felt like, "Oh, this is—this is a science fiction book." [Stifles laughter.]
00:39:43	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm! [Laughs.]
00:39:44	John	Host	They're, like, view—they're—they're looking through a portal to another dimension. And it's like, "Don't stare at the abyss too long, or you will become that." [Stifles laughter.]
00:39:51	Josh	Guest	[Laughing] "I'm from the future!"
00:39:56	John	Host	So… I mean, look! Obviously science fiction deals more in planets. But Josh, in your opinion… You ever—you read a lot of fantasy?
00:40:05	Josh	Guest	I used to when I was a kid. I haven't so much anymore.
00:40:06	John	Host	What'd you—what'd you rock?
00:40:08	Josh	Guest	I was doing… just the real basics.
00:40:10	John	Host	Hit me!
00:40:11	Josh	Guest	I—I did some Narnia.
00:40:12	John	Host	Right.
00:40:13	Josh	Guest	I did… Uh… Gosh. The—I found a book outside my home yesterday, that I Tweeted a picture of. And—because I thought it was funny. And I think I may have read it as a kid. It's called Dealing with Dragons. And—
00:40:25	John	Host	Oh!
00:40:27	Josh	Guest	Beloved! I Tweeted it—
00:40:28	John	Host	That rings a bell!
00:40:29	Josh	Guest	Yeah! It is—let me find the name. Because it is—I Tweeted it, and then, like, immediately, 30 people were like, "Um, that's my favorite book from when I was a kid. I read the whole series. My nephew is reading it right now, and it's like—it makes me cry." It is by…
00:40:43	Crosstalk	Crosstalk	Josh: Patricia C. Wrede. John: Patricia… C… Wrede.
00:40:46	John	Host	W-R-E-D-E.
00:40:47	Josh	Guest	Yes.
00:40:48	John	Host	I think we have accessed the same database here. It's a data-based podcast!
00:40:53	Josh	Guest	[Laughing] Yeah!
00:40:54	John	Host	Enchanted Forest Chronicles. It's the first in the Enchanted Forest Chronicles. Where does it take place? "Princess Cimorene is frustrated by her life, and persuades the castle staff to teach her magic—magic, cooking, Latin." That's—that's on Earth, I guess. Doesn't say what the name—doesn't say what the name, uh, of the fantasy kingdom that she is—
00:41:12	Josh	Guest	Realm?
00:41:13	John	Host	Yeah, the realm. Doesn't say here. Do you remember if it was on Earth or not?
00:41:18	Josh	Guest	I don't.
00:41:19	John	Host	Oh, okay. Well, it's—you—those are some good touchstones, right? Because… Narnia. Is that another planet? [Josh sighs.] What's your gut feeling?
00:41:28	Josh	Guest	Well, so they start on Earth. Right?
00:41:30	John	Host	Yeah, of course they do.
00:41:31	Josh	Guest	They start on—and then they go through the wardrobe.
00:41:33	John	Host	Go through the wardrobe. To the—to the realm of Narnia.
00:41:37	Josh	Guest	Yeah.
00:41:38	John	Host	There's no part of Narnia that maps to the map of any part of Earth.
00:41:43	Josh	Guest	Right. But also, we don't know that it's somewhere else.
00:41:46	John	Host	Yeah. Does that feel like another planet to you, or another realm?
00:41:51	Josh	Guest	Much more realm-like to me.
00:41:53	John	Host	And—then let's not even define what "realm" is.
00:41:55	Josh	Guest	Yeah. [Laughs.]
00:41:56	John	Host	Does not feel like travel to another planet. Now—
00:41:58	Josh	Guest	It does not feel like travel to another planet.
00:41:59	John	Host	Now, uh, Middle-earth. In Lord of the Rings. Is that another planet? Or another realm?
00:42:08	Josh	Guest	I always assumed it was an inaccessible realm that was part of the planet Earth. [Words slurring slightly] Our Earth. [Beat.]
00:42:15	John	Host	[Laughs.] Why are you saying that?
00:42:19	Crosstalk	Crosstalk	John: Why do you say "Aherth"? Josh: Just because it's— [Both laugh quietly.] Josh: No! Josh & John: "Our Earth." [Josh cracks up.] John: I thought you were—thought you were pronouncing "Earth" in a special way. Josh: [Laughing] I wasn't just—trying to put some—just put a little— John: Like, "Oh, I didn't—that's how you say it—that's how you say it in Sindarin, I guess."
00:42:30	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm. [Laughs.] Yeah, I didn't all of a sudden be like, "What—uh, how would Ludacris say it? Like, at the end of a lyric?" [John cracks up.] Just, like… "Uh, yeah. Uh… The Hobbits went around, and they walked through ARTH!" [Both laugh.]
00:42:45	John	Host	Well… close, but no pipe-weed pipe— [Josh laughs.] —uh, out of Hobbiton there, Josh. Because… it's Earth! That's why it's called Middle-earth!
00:42:52	Josh	Guest	Yeah!
00:42:53	John	Host	It's supposed to be Earth a long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long time ago.
00:42:56	Josh	Guest	Oh, is "Middle" the time?
00:42:57	John	Host	Something like that.
00:42:58	Josh	Guest	Okay.
00:42:59	John	Host	It's hard—like, you know. You look at the maps of Middle-earth, the worl—the global maps of Middle-earth, and they don't track to Earth. But this is supposedly in some prehistoric Pangea moment. It's—I—I could be getting this wrong. But I—
00:43:14	Josh	Guest	No, that makes sense.
00:43:15	John	Host	Fairly sure I got this right, 'cause I studied that Maps of Middle-earth book for a long time.
00:43:19	Josh	Guest	I always pictured it as, like, you'd take an elevator down to the middle of the Earth's crust, and it was hollow, and that's where the Hobbits were.
00:43:26	John	Host	[Exhales sharply.] You're talking about Hollow Earth.
00:43:28	Josh	Guest	Yeah.
00:43:29	John	Host	You're talking about the Hollow Earth theory. [Josh laughs, John starts to speak but stops.]
00:43:31	Josh	Guest	[Laughing] The Hobbit Earth theory is what I'm talking about!
00:43:34	John	Host	I don't have time for Hollow Earth right now, but that would be a plan—[stifles laughter] that would be planet Earth. So here's what I have to say about this, Lance. This—I understand where your partner Amy is coming from. This—fantasy is fantasy. It is fantastic; it is sort of… beyond the mundane, the literal worldly? And instead it is a flight of… fancy! And I find myself—I think the Narnia thing was a real gut test for me. Because, you know, you tried, Lance, to load the dice. [Chuckles.] You tried to load the 20-sided dice on this one.
00:44:06	Josh	Guest	[Laughs.] Which is very noticeable on a 20-sided dice. There's so many ways it could land—
00:44:12	John	Host	[Laughing] Yeah.
00:44:13	Josh	Guest	—and for it to be the same one every time? Just the—
00:44:14	John	Host	"Sixteen, sixteen, sixteen!" [Josh laughs.] Over and over and over again. Alright, you know—
00:44:18	Josh	Guest	Sure. You didn't go as high as loading it to be a critical hit, but sure. [Laughs.]
00:44:22	John	Host	Right.
00:44:23	Josh	Guest	Sixteen every time is—that's a—you're putting your thumb on the scale.
00:44:24	John	Host	Hey. Hey, it's all about data! If you know what the data's gonna be every time, you have an advantage.
00:44:29	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
00:44:30	John	Host	But you name-dropped those Yatil Mountains in—in Greyhawk. Which is the original setting of Dungeons & Dragons. Initially the castle of Greyhawk, then the city of Greyhawk, and then… the World of Greyhawk is how it's defined! On the same database we were looking at together earlier, Josh, but a different page.
00:44:47	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
00:44:48	John	Host	The one—[stifles laughter]—the one about Greyhawk. The—the Greyhawk Wikipedia entry has some pretty amazing subheadings. Including, uh, "The Greyhawk Wars."
00:44:58	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
00:44:59	John	Host	Uh, "Gygax Departs." [Josh laughs.] "Greyhawk novels continue without Gord the Rogue." I mean, this is what I'm gonna be reading when I wake up at two o'clock in the morning tonight!
00:45:09	Josh	Guest	[Laughs.] "Gygax Departs" sounds so much like the title of, like, a Phish song that they've never put on an album, [laughing] and when they play it live, it's 50 to 90 minutes, and everyone's like, "You've gotta hear 'Gygax Departs.'"
00:45:24	John	Host	Uh, yeah. No. Phish, you get that—I—we have a lot of Phish listeners. Get word—hey, Phish listeners. Get word to my friend, my personal friend Mike Gordon, bassist from Phish.
00:45:35	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
00:45:36	John	Host	We got a name of a song for him, and it's "Gygax Departs." He'll know what it means.
00:45:38	Josh	Guest	[Laughing] Tell Mike Gordon— [Recovers.] They've gotta call—and Gary Gygax was the creator of…
00:45:45	John	Host	Gary Gygax was the creator, who—much like Steve Jobs—left his most well-known creation. But unlike Steve Jobs, never came back.
00:45:55	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm. He—[laughing] he departed. Never came back!
00:45:57	John	Host	He depart—he departed. He departed on the—uh, on the gray boats to Elven… Heaven, or whatever it is.
00:46:03	Josh	Guest	It's all—it's all covered in the song lyrics.
00:46:04	John	Host	Yeah, it's—[laughs]—
00:46:05	Josh	Guest	[Stifling laughter] Let's not bore the listeners.
00:46:07	John	Host	[Laughs.] It's gonna be a hot song! You know what? Hang on! Mike Gordon, my friend the bassist from Phish? Give me a minute. If there is a Judge John Hodgman listener who wants to write and perform "Gygax Departs"… [Josh laughs.] …in—I'm not—in the style of Phish?
00:46:27	Josh	Guest	Yeah.
00:46:28	John	Host	In your own style. In your own style.
00:46:30	Josh	Guest	[Stifling laughter] Ooh!
00:46:31	John	Host	You can freestyle it. I would love to hear that song. There is also a subheading in here called "Setting." Setting. In which the name of the planet on which the world of Greyhawk is located is named. And d'you know what the name of that planet is?
00:46:47	Josh	Guest	I'm gonna guess "Greyhawk."
00:46:50	John	Host	Oerth! [Josh cracks up.] O-E-R-T-H!
00:46:54	Josh	Guest	[Laughing] Wait! The thing I said by accident earlier?!
00:46:56	John	Host	Yes, that's why I was so… struck by what you said! I couldn't—I thought you were getting ahead of me; you were in my mind!
00:47:02	Josh	Guest	No! I was way behind! [Laughs.] Wow.
00:47:06	John	Host	So, yeah! Absolutely, you know, Lance, you're right, that Greyhawk is on a planet. But I—but—and, you know, other fantasy novels take place in worlds that have clear planetary features. Like, I'm gonna—I'm going to say that, uh, Westeros, is on a planet that is not Earth. Because it doesn't share any of the geographical features of Earth. Does not track to any of the history of Earth. [Stifles laughter.] It's a completely separate planet, probably in a different dimension, that happens to share most of the language and culture of medieval England. [Josh laughs, John stifles laughter.] For reasons unknown. It's a faaantasy! It defies logic!
00:47:47	Josh	Guest	Ooogh. You know my—have we been over this? That I hate when stuff has British accents just 'cause it's old? [Laughing] That is pet peeve of mine. Give 'em Greek accents for once! Anything!
00:48:01	John	Host	[Stifles laughter.] Are you trying to come in here and poop on my favorite show, I, Claudius?
00:48:04	Josh	Guest	No!
00:48:05	John	Host	Ancient Rome, some of the best British actors of all time?
00:48:07	Josh	Guest	Not—it's not that they can never be British. It's just that sometimes, they should be German. [Both laugh.] Or… you know!
00:48:16	John	Host	Yeah.
00:48:17	Josh	Guest	I just think it—a variety of accents. [Laughs.]
00:48:18	John	Host	In any case! Fantasy worlds can be set on planets. And identified as such, for sure. But that does not mean that a fantasy world is necessarily a planet. Because it exists outside of rational description. That's the point of the fantasy. It is a world! It is a realm. It is a—it is a dimension. It is a—and who knows? Maybe in this fantasy world, there aren't planets. You're just—you—maybe the planets are flat. Maybe the—maybe it's like Asgard, floating out in space, flat.
00:48:50	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
00:48:51	John	Host	Like a—like a—like the cover of a Yes record album. [Josh laughs.] A big feature—big floating island. In the—in the cosmic slop, or whatever. It can be whatever it wants to be. Now, Lance's partner Amy, don't roll your eyes. Lance isn't wrong. Greyhawk's on a planet! It's called Oerth! [Josh laughs.] There's all kinds of precedent for this. There's all kinds of science fiction and fantasy crossover. All kinds of fantasy stories that are actually taking place on other planets.
00:49:19	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
00:49:20	John	Host	That are not Earth. And are defined as planets. But it's okay for the Narnia to be in a symbolic realm. Of myth. Um, which is not—not bound to a planetary scale.
00:49:33	Sound Effect	Sound Effect	[Three gavel bangs.]
00:49:34	John	Host	That's what I would say. Josh? Do you disagree?
00:49:36	Josh	Guest	No, I think this is a great ruling!
00:49:38	John	Host	Thank you.
00:49:39	Josh	Guest	I think, like… it is helpful to have—
00:49:41	John	Host	Nice to hear that from the new host of the podcast, that I still got it.
00:49:44	Josh	Guest	[Laughing] Yeah, your last ruling was a terrific one. Your final ruling, I should say.
00:49:50	John	Host	[Laughs.] Oh—whoa! Not even gonna let me finish this one out?!
00:49:53	Josh	Guest	We're flipping this—we're passing the baton mid-podcast. [Laughs.]
00:49:57	John	Host	Alright, here we go! Next one! Josh, here's something from Faith. [Josh laughs harder.] From unknown location.
00:50:04	Crosstalk	Crosstalk	Josh: No, I'm uncomfortable with this! No! [Laughs.] John: Faith writes—no, no! You—no, no, no! No, look! I—look! Take it. This is a good one. Josh: [Laughing] Augh, you're gonna make me smoke the whole podcast! [John laughs quietly.]
00:50:12	Josh	Guest	[Laughing] "Oh, you wanna host the podcast? Host the whole thing!"
00:50:15	John	Host	[Laughs quietly.] No, not the—we're almost done!
00:50:17	Josh	Guest	That's true.
00:50:18	John	Host	Faith says: "I am an engineer for a medical device design consulting company. As such, a lot of what the details—" Excuse me. See? This is hard to do. I don't—I'm not—I—this is hard work, to read the letters.
00:50:28	Josh	Guest	Do you wanna switch back?
00:50:30	John	Host	…Yeah, let's do it.
00:50:31	Josh	Guest	Okay. "I am an engineer for a medical devi—" This is still Faith, from an unknown location.
00:50:36	John	Host	Right.
00:50:37	Josh	Guest	"I'm an engineer for a medical device design consulting company. As such, a lot of the details of my work are confidential due to client NDAs. When I talk evasively about what I'm working on, it leads to some weird statements, like, 'Customs wouldn't let me through with our… prototype.' And, 'Our device isn't making the building shake anymore, so that's nice.'" [John laughs.] "And, 'Ugh. I got stuck in the blood room again!'"
00:50:59	John	Host	Whoooa!
00:51:01	Josh	Guest	"My friends Lo and Marian have taken to accusing me of being a spy due to these statements. I don't mind being given a more sinister job title, and naturally, I play up the weirdness of my workplace for fun. However, I object to being labeled a spy, when titles like 'mad scientist' or 'henchperson to a supervillain' fit so much better. I feel like I told them objects moved on their own in my house, and they concluded I had a Bigfoot infestation. Please tell Lo and Marian to make the accusations fit the evidence."
00:51:30	John	Host	Now… sometimes, Josh, Jennifer Marmor and I… do a little polish on the letters.
00:51:35	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
00:51:36	John	Host	To tighten them up. Because, um… you know, we're a professional podcast.
00:51:40	Josh	Guest	Yeah!
00:51:41	John	Host	You know. If—if we're gonna play… an audio-only of someone driving and not talking? [Josh chuckles.] We're gonna keep it to… 75 seconds.
00:51:50	Josh	Guest	Yeah.
00:51:51	John	Host	Just out of courtesy to the listeners.
00:51:53	Josh	Guest	Fifty-one to seventy-five seconds is the sweet spot, [laughing] I think we all know.
00:51:55	John	Host	[Laughing] Right. [Stops laughing.] And as I was looking through this this morning, Jennifer Marmor, I saw this line. "I feel like I told them objects moved on their own in my house, and they concluded I had a Bigfoot infestation." And I was—and I was like, "I don't understand what that means. I'm gonna cut it out, 'cause it's not clear." But then I read it again, and I'm like, "It's not—it's still not clear. But it's beautiful." "I feel like I—"
00:52:21	Josh	Guest	I—I think I understand what it means!
00:52:22	John	Host	Okay! What's your interpretation? 'Cause this feels like… I would like to hear this lyric in "Gygax Departs," 'cause it feels… lyrical and poetic to me.
00:52:28	Josh	Guest	[Laughs.] Yeah. If you're writing "Gygax Departs," you gotta put this in there.
00:52:32	John	Host	Right.
00:52:33	Josh	Guest	It is a beautiful turn of phrase. I thought a beautifully written letter. But I think specifically, what, uh—what Faith is saying—
00:52:40	John	Host	Yeah.
00:52:41	Josh	Guest	—is that she gave a probl—she—she provided a set of evidence that leads to a specific kind of conclusion. And her friends have reached a different conclus—like, the wrong conclusion that is in a similar grouping. Right?
00:52:57	John	Host	Right.
00:52:58	Josh	Guest	She gave them, "Hey, there's a—a magical thing happening." Clearly… ghost.
00:53:02	John	Host	Right.
00:53:03	Josh	Guest	And they've inferred, instead… Bigfoot.
00:53:05	John	Host	She gave them a poltergeist clue—
00:53:07	Josh	Guest	Yes.
00:53:08	John	Host	—and they came back with a cryptozoology, uh, conclusion.
00:53:10	Josh	Guest	Right. And so what she's saying is parallel. She's giving them all—
00:53:14	John	Host	Alright.
00:53:15	Josh	Guest	"Mr.—Mr. Police, I've given you all the clues." [Both laugh.] As the poster for that movie The Snowman said. [John laughs, Josh stifles laughter.] "Mr. Police, you could've saved her. I gave her all the clues." Um—
00:53:22	John	Host	Wow.
00:53:24	Josh	Guest	And she's saying—all the clues for… henchperson, or mad scientist.
00:53:27	John	Host	Or mad scientist.
00:53:29	Josh	Guest	And they have instead, incorrectly, uh—
00:53:31	John	Host	Called her a spy.
00:53:32	Josh	Guest	—drawn a direct line to spy.
00:53:35	John	Host	Merely because she's being coy about where she works.
00:53:37	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm. Yes.
00:53:39	John	Host	As opposed to what she is choosing to reveal about where she works.
00:53:42	Josh	Guest	Yes.
00:53:43	John	Host	Which would definitely point to—absolutely, Faith. I'm not even gonna make you a hench—a henchperson to a supervillain. Forget it. Mad scientist all the way. Look. You got stuck in the blood room. Happens all the time. [Josh chuckles.] But you're not getting ordered into the blood room. You're taking charge. You are the mad scientist here. You know what I mean?
00:54:01	Josh	Guest	Right. You—you buzzed your assistant. And you were like, "Hey, can you reserve me the blood room from two to three?" [Both laugh.]
00:54:09	John	Host	You know, you can do that online now. You don't have to—you can reserve the blood room online. They have a whole—a whole reservation system.
00:54:15	Josh	Guest	Yeah, I know, but it's like—I—I'm putting my finger down like I'm still talking on the intercom. "Yeah, I know. Uh, it's just like—agh, I don't wanna learn the whole new thing, and it didn't work last time. Can you just do it?"
00:54:23	John	Host	"Uh…"
00:54:24	Josh	Guest	"Can you just put in for the blood room, two to three?"
00:54:26	John	Host	[Dismayed] "Okay. You're the boss…" Good roleplay, by the way. [Josh cracks up.] But Faith, you are the boss! You're the mad scientist! You are the supervillain! Own it! Own—well, you do own it! Don't undermine yourself with, uh—with "henchperson." And, yeah! Mo and… Laurian? No, sorry. Lo and Marian? [Josh laughs.] Cool na—both—all of those. All four of those are cool names. But Lo and Marian are the two that you have.
00:54:56	Josh	Guest	If you'd like to acquire two more friends… [John laughs quietly.] [Laughing] I've got suggestions for their names.
00:55:01	John	Host	[Laughs.] In any case, don't undersell Faith! Faith is a mad scientist, not a—not a spy.
00:55:09	Josh	Guest	I have a thought on this.
00:55:11	John	Host	Please! Share.
00:55:12	Josh	Guest	May—? So… Faith. You're right. Obviously you're a person of science, a person of logic, both. And I think you're right, on the grounds of being factually correct. However… this is their bit. You can't dictate the rules of their bit. If it was hurtful to you, you could say, "Please don't do this bit at me." But for you to be like, "You guys have a joke about me. I'm fine with you making the joke. But I wish it were correct"? Not the rules of bits, [stifles laughter] in my opinion.
00:55:41	John	Host	Whoa! Judge Josh Gondelman comes in and reverses the decision!
00:55:45	Josh	Guest	I'm—this is just—we're—we're—this is a dialogue! I feel like I could come around to your side, but I do feel like… what she's doing—she's, um—she's applying logic to the bit world. And I feel like there's no faster way to take the air out of a bit.
00:55:59	John	Host	Right. This isn't a planet, this is a realm. [Josh laughs.] You don't apply logic to—
00:56:03	Josh	Guest	This is a realm!
00:56:04	John	Host	You don't apply logic to Bit World. It's not a pl— [Josh laughs, John stifles laughter.] Fair enough! Alright. Guess what? You can't interfere with their bit, but Judge John Hodgman's gonna come back and say… turnabout is fair play. Your new bit is: Their names are Mo and Larien.
00:56:19	Sound Effect	Sound Effect	[Three gavel bangs.]
00:56:20	Josh	Guest	[Laughs.] I would even go as far as to say your new bit can be being mad that they say "spy" and not "supervillain." But you can't actually try to convince them, [laughing] because then it's not a bit anymore.
00:56:34	John	Host	Fair enough! Judge Jo—Judge—it's not easy to say yours—name either.
00:56:38	Josh	Guest	No, it's bad.
00:56:39	John	Host	Judge Josh Gondelman—no, it's all the Judge Jah. All the Judge Juhs. [Josh laughs.] They're all hard to say. But Judge Josh Gondelman has spoken. Let's take another quick break. When we come back… an ice cream dispute, and an ice cream recommendation! On the Judge John Hodgman podcast.
00:56:58	Sound Effect	Transition	[Three gavel bangs.]
00:57:00	Promo	Clip	[Sound of thunder and rain plays in background.] Mallory O’Meara: Are you riddled with guilt over your TBR pile? Brea Grant: Are you filled with shame about a book that you just can’t seem to finish? Mallory: Are you having regrets because grad school killed your love of reading? [Angelic choir. Rain and thunder stop.] Brea: We’re Reading Glasses, and we’re here to help! Mallory: I’m Mallory. Brea: And I’m Brea. Music: Rhythmic percussion. Mallory: Let us absolve you of all your reading guilt.
00:57:21	Promo	Clip	Brea: Stuck on a book you don’t like? Mallory: We’ll help you dump it! Brea: Can’t figure out what to read next? Mallory: We’ll recommend something in your wheelhouse. Brea: Can’t decide where to buy your books from? Mallory: We’ll point you in the right direction! Brea: No matter what you read or how you read it… Mallory: …We’ll help you do it better. Brea: Reading Glasses! Every Thursday on Maximum Fun. [Music stops.]
00:57:41	Promo	Clip	Music: Cheerful guitar. John Moe: Hey, it’s John Moe. And look, these are challenging times for our mental and emotional health. I get it! That’s why I’m so excited for my new podcast, Depresh Mode. We’re tackling depression, anxiety, trauma, stress, the kinds of things that are just super common but don’t get talked about nearly enough. Conversations that are illuminating, honest, and sometimes pretty funny, with folks like Patton Oswalt, Kelsey Darragh, and Open Mike Eagle. Open Mike Eagle: I have this public-facing self, and then I have my emotional self that tends to stay hidden. It was about finding a way to communicate to somebody that, like, there’s terrible sh—[cut] going on back here! John: Plus psychiatrists, psychologist, and all kinds of folks! On Depresh Mode, we’re working together. Learning, helping each other out. We’re a team! Join our team! Depresh Mode, from Maximum Fun. Wherever you get your podcasts. [Music fades out.]
00:58:33	Sound Effect	Transition	[Three gavel bangs.]
00:58:34	John	Promo	Josh, we're taking a break from clearing this docket. So let's talk about what you have going on in your life. Is there anything coming up, in the—in the Gondelverse?
00:58:44	Josh	Promo	The big excitement is visiting my parents, which I can't invite all the listeners in on. [Laughs.] But—
00:58:49	John	Promo	Understood! We'll run a contest! Fifteen lucky listeners—! [Both laugh.]
00:58:54	Josh	Promo	Will get to hang out with the Lyons Gondelman family! [Both laugh.] Um, I am ongoingly making episodes of Make My Day, my comedy game show podcast, which you've been a great guest on. And—
00:59:06	John	Promo	Thank you. It is such a fun podcast.
00:59:07	Josh	Promo	Thank you!
00:59:08	John	Promo	Make My Day podcast. It is truly—look. You've all heard the voice of Josh Gondelman for a—a while now. On this episode, other episodes. You know what he does? He makes people's day. [Josh chuckles.] And on this podcast, just invites people to return the favor. One good friend comes on, and they play some games, and everybody's days get made! It's a real fun podcast!
00:59:28	Josh	Promo	Thank you!
00:59:29	John	Promo	Where and when? Where and when?
00:59:31	Josh	Promo	Every Tuesday, wherever you want. Wherever you get your podcasts.
00:59:35	John	Promo	Every Tuesday, wherever you get your podcasts, the Make My Day podcast. And of course, Josh, you're also the author of a book which is still available.
00:59:46	Josh	Promo	Still available! They didn't pull it off the shelves.
00:59:49	John	Promo	Called Nice Try.
00:59:50	Josh	Promo	Stories of Best Intentions and Mixed Results.
00:59:53	John	Promo	It's such a funny and wonderful book.
00:59:54	Josh	Promo	Thank you! That means so much. I—I'm really proud of it still, and it's—it's been out for about a year and a half, but I am like—every time someone, like, posts a picture that they're reading it and enjoyed it, I'm like, "Yeah! People can still do that!" [Chuckling] It feels so nice!
01:00:07	John	Promo	Look. We just passed the third-year anniversary of the publication of Vacationland, and the one-year anniversary of the publication of Medallion Status. And I'm telling you what. They're still in print. You can go get them at any places books are sold or loaned. If you would like a personalized copy of either of those—or any of my other books, the Complete World Knowledge trilogy—you can just call Books Are Magic! Or go to BooksAreMagic.com, and let them know that you'd like me to sign it to a friend of yours! You can even give me a simple, basic message! But don't—please don't write a hundred words that you want me to copy out. Uh, BooksAreMagic.com. Also you can get Josh's book there, as well as other books! Uh, wherever you get your books, please try to support your local book shop. As well—I always say this, and I'm gonna say it again—Bit.ly/dicktown. B-I-T dot L-Y slash D-I-C-K-T-O-W-N. That brings you to the Hulu page for the short-form animated comedy that David Rees and I made called Dicktown. And I hope to have some news from Richardsville for you soon. But, uh, not yet! In the mean time! Uh, you can go and catch up on all ten episodes of Dicktown over there. And please take a listen to David Rees's podcast Election Profit Makers "on another network," as they used to say on network television.
01:01:31	John	Promo	That's what's going on with me! Also and finally, but not leastly, MaxFunDrive is coming up. Please remember. As always and every year, I will be shouting out thanks to those who upgrade or join at the Leadership Squad level or above. If you upgrade your existing membership to Leadership Squad or join at Leadership Squad—or above—just send me an email with proof of your upgrade or your new membership, and I will go on Instagram and say thank you! It's the only version of Cameo I will ever do. [Josh laughs.] And I only do it once a year. [Stifles laughter.] And it's a lot of fun. And I promise to be more timely about it this time! So keep an ear out for the MaxFunDrive. You'll be hearing all about it, of course. In the mean time, podcasts go on! Let's get back to the docket, shall we, Josh?
01:02:21	Josh	Promo	Let's!
01:02:22	John	Promo	Okay.
01:02:23	Sound Effect	Transition	[Three gavel bangs.]
01:02:25	Josh	Guest	Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast!
01:02:27	John	Host	Whoa! More role-switching! Wow, okay! [Josh laughs.] You're the bailiff again!
01:02:32	Josh	Guest	I feel like we're—this is like a—we're—we've been doing this Beastie Boys–style. [Both laugh.]
01:02:37	John	Host	We're just passing the mic.
01:02:38	Josh	Guest	Yeah!
01:02:39	John	Host	I gotcha. Okay, very good! I like it.
01:02:40	Josh	Guest	Here's a case from Eric, from the state of…
01:02:43	John	Host	…Maryland!
01:02:45	Josh	Guest	[Laughs.] Eric says: "My wife is a monster. She will eat the center of an ice cream carton, hogging all the mixings, as that's where they always settle. I'm not looking for an injunction to stop her. If she doesn't stop on her own, she won't grow as a person and understand she's being selfish. What I'm looking for is a ruling that I am not violating our marriage vows—to honor and cherish—by calling her a monster for doing it."
01:03:10	John	Host	So first of all, calling people monsters, that's a—that's been a thing on Judge John Hodgman for a long time. Let me get a ruling from Josh… Judge Gondelman. [Both laugh.] Uh, because you are—you are a person of compassion, and of empathy.
01:03:25	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
01:03:27	John	Host	Is it ever okay for a spouse to call their other spouse, in a—in a joshing manner, a monster? Or no?
01:03:33	Josh	Guest	[Sighs.] I don't wanna say never.
01:03:35	John	Host	Right.
01:03:36	Josh	Guest	But I don't think it's—it's a good habit.
01:03:39	John	Host	Alright. Fair enough. So be careful, Eric. Again, it's contextual. But that said, is there a crime here? So, Josh. I had no idea what Eric was talking about.
01:03:52	Josh	Guest	Me, either!
01:03:53	John	Host	Eating the core of an ice cream carton, because all the mixings always settle in the middle of the ice cream carton.
01:04:02	Josh	Guest	I thought maybe they had some kind of neighbor who haphazardly, uh, threw together an ice cream with some mixings and didn't stir it well. Because unless—outside of those occasional cart—pints you get, with like a core of chocolate in the middle?
01:04:19	John	Host	With a core.
01:04:20	Josh	Guest	Yeah.
01:04:21	John	Host	Right. A literal, like, core of caramel or something like that.
01:04:22	Josh	Guest	Yeah! Um, I've never noticed that the—the mixings settle in the middle.
01:04:27	John	Host	Yeah. Ice cream is not a colloid. [Josh laughs.] It's not—[stifles laughter]—there's nothing settling in there, and think that the ice—these are commercially—I believe they get these from the Wegmans family of stores, their ice creams.
01:04:39	Josh	Guest	Mm.
01:04:41	John	Host	And I think that—I think that high-quality ice cream companies want to have an even dispersal of stuff inside. Jennifer Marmor, you ever—you ever notice that the… the ingredients, the chunky ingredients of a—of an ice cream settle in the middle of the carton?
01:04:57	Jennifer	Producer	I've never experienced that.
01:04:59	John	Host	That's very interesting. So I asked Eric to provide some evidence that this was actually happening. And he sent me two photos, which you—well… Yeah, I guess we're gonna put these on the show page at MaximumFun.org, as well as the Instagram. At @judgejohnhodgman on Instagram. Because, I mean, just—you know, maybe a content warning. 'Cause this first one kinda… [Josh cracks up.] This fir—[stifles laughter]—this first one is… I guess white chocolate raspberry from Wegmans? And the way his wife has scooped in the middle is—looks a little bit like a wound. It's a little bit—
01:05:29	Josh	Guest	[Laughs.] It's a little graphic!
01:05:31	John	Host	It's a little—[stifles laughter]—it's a little bit… scary-looking.
01:05:34	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
01:05:36	John	Host	And he's—and he wrote, uh, "We purchase the Wegmans store brand. This is white chocolate raspberry. I've also included one—a maple walnut—showing how I scoop the ice cream." And that's the second photo. Uh, which, you can see that the scooping is much e—more even. You're seeing a clean, like—
01:05:54	Josh	Guest	Almost—almost too even.
01:05:56	John	Host	Well—
01:05:57	Josh	Guest	It's unsettling in a different way. [Both laugh.]
01:05:58	John	Host	It looks—it looks like the topography of a fantasy land. [Josh laughs.] It has peaks and valleys. [Laughs quietly.] You could probably find a settlement of Elves and Halflings in there.
01:06:07	Josh	Guest	[Stifling laughter] Mm-hm. Weg—Wegmarnia.
01:06:08	John	Host	But—[bursts out laughing]. Alright! That's it! I'm going home. [Josh cracks up.] Enjoy your new job, Josh. Jennifer Marmor, you don't mind working for Josh, right? He's a wonderful guy.
01:06:20	Jennifer	Producer	Not at all; he's the best! [Josh laughs.]
01:06:21	John	Host	Yeah. Hm. [Distastefully] Wegmarnia… [Josh laughs.] It doe—whether it's a planet, or a plane floating in an alternate dimension in space, there is definitely a… a fairly flat topography here.
01:06:35	Josh	Guest	Yeah.
01:06:37	John	Host	That suggests that he's taking it off fairly evenly. But neither of these photos, I have to say, Eric… proves your initial claim that the—that the mixings, as you call them, settle in the middle! I mean, what you would need to do—
01:06:50	Josh	Guest	Yeah.
01:06:51	Jennifer	Producer	Really?
01:06:52	John	Host	Well, no—I mean… Because if you look at the white chocolate raspberry, this is—his wife is digging into… the—the ice cream right in the center. She's creating a hole. A mine, as it were. You know, a traditional coal mine. You dig into the earth. As opposed to just taking off the top of a mountain.
01:07:09	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
01:07:10	John	Host	Like they do in West Virginia to get coal, and/or… [stifles laughter] build airports.
01:07:14	Josh	Guest	[Stifling laughter] Mm-hm.
01:07:15	John	Host	One of the most ter—have you ever flown into Charleston, West Virginia, or out, Josh?
01:07:18	Josh	Guest	No!
01:07:19	John	Host	It's—the—the—you know, it's—the terrain is so mountainous and rocky that they had to cut off the top of a—of a mountain, to put the airport on top! You drive up and around a mou—it looks like an evil villain's lair.
01:07:32	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
01:07:33	John	Host	'Cause you drive around the mountain, slowly inclining, to get up to this top of the mountain that's been cut off. And then you just have an airport up there, and the runway doesn't have to be very long. [Josh laughs, John stifles laughter.] Because you're already—you—you zip right off into the air!
01:07:49	Josh	Guest	Yeah, there's already air underneath you!
01:07:50	John	Host	Yeah. It's ter—it's scary stuff!
01:07:53	Josh	Guest	I like that.
01:07:54	John	Host	I—I performed in Charleston with, uh, Justin and Sydnee McElroy, and that was a lot of fun.
01:07:59	Josh	Guest	Uh-huh.
01:08:00	John	Host	But in any case, she is—she's digging deep into the core. Leaving the rest—the rest of the surface untouched. We don't know—we don't see what's underneath… the untouched surface there. This—
01:08:12	Josh	Guest	Agreed.
01:08:13	Jennifer	Producer	That's true.
01:08:14	John	Host	Yeah.
01:08:15	Josh	Guest	We're gonna need more data. [Josh and/or Jennifer laughs.]
01:08:16	John	Host	I—we're gonna need more data! I need—alright, Eric? And I need you guys to each— [Someone stifles laughter.] —eat 150— [Josh and John laugh.] —containers.
01:08:26	Jennifer	Producer	Most delicious ruling. [Chuckles.]
01:08:27	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
01:08:28	John	Host	Hundred and fifty containers, and take a—a—maybe not 150 containers. I want you to live. But I would like you to—
01:08:34	Josh	Guest	Seventy-five. Fift—seventy-five and seventy-five. [Laughs quietly.]
01:08:36	John	Host	Yeah. Seventy-five containers each…
01:08:39	Josh	Guest	[Stifling laughter] Mm-hm.
01:08:40	John	Host	…of white chocolate raspberry. Seventy-five containers of… maple walnut.
01:08:44	Josh	Guest	This is all a red herring.
01:08:45	John	Host	Oh.
01:08:46	Josh	Guest	Which is one of my favorite flavors of Voodoo Doughnut. [John and Josh laugh.] This, I think, is all a red herring! Because really, he doesn't want remediation of this, or amelioration of this scooping problem. What he wants is the permission to call his wife a monster for her scooping style. Which I feel we should not grant, regardless! [Chuckles.]
01:09:08	John	Host	Yeah. I mean, even if you were just coming to the podcast, Eric, saying that… "I don't like that my wife scoops in the middle of the ice cream, 'cause it bothers me aesthetically. And I would prefer that she do a strip-mining operation, the way I do on my maple walnut." That still would not be evidence of monstrosity.
01:09:27	Josh	Guest	[Stifling laughter] Mm-hm.
01:09:28	John	Host	You need to go a little bit farther. A little bit farther.
01:09:29	Josh	Guest	[Laughing] Even if she was doing it out of spite! [Stops laughing.] Unless you have some kind of—perhaps an obsessive-compulsive disorder. Not to be glib! Where that would be, uh… off-putting to you. If it's just a—a neurotypical issue of ice cream preference… [chuckling] no thank you.
01:09:46	John	Host	Yeah. That said, Eric, I can appreciate why you would like your wife to be… literally more even-handed?
01:09:52	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm. [Chuckles.]
01:09:53	John	Host	In her ice cream–scooping. Um, because if you dig down into that core deeper, without widening it? It—it's gonna get dangerous. You're gonna be definitely scuffing your knuckles on that ice cream as you dig in there. There's no reason for that. It doesn't look good. I'm almost thinking about not posting the photo, because it looks so unnerving. But—
01:10:15	Josh	Guest	Unsettling, for sure.
01:10:16	John	Host	Yeah. So, you know, I—I'm willing to order that Eric's wife scoop a little bit more evenly.
01:10:24	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm!
01:10:25	John	Host	But I don't think she—I don't think she deserves "monster" for this one.
01:10:26	Sound Effect	Sound Effect	[Three gavel bangs.]
01:10:27	Josh	Guest	Agreed.
01:10:28	John	Host	Alright, Josh, we got a letter. Uh, from Maya! Who had a related ice cream–y recommendation! A few weeks ago, uh, Jesse Thorn and I were talking about putting salt on vanilla ice cream. Which I had never thought of. Which is great.
01:10:43	Josh	Guest	Mm.
01:10:44	John	Host	Because ice cream is the only—I love—I don't care for sweets, but I do love salty and fatty things.
01:10:49	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
01:10:50	John	Host	And I had never thought—ice cream is right on the tolerable edge of the—of sweetness for me, because it is so creamy and rich. I like that.
01:10:58	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm.
01:10:59	John	Host	But if I could add salt to it, forget it. I'm just gonna eat that for the rest of my life. So Maya says: "My husband's and my favorite ice cream combination is vanilla ice cream with flaky salt, fresh figs, and fruity olive oil. We got the idea years ago from Saveur magazine, and it has become a mainstay. If figs are out of season, we sometimes use fig jam. And a flaky, smoked salt is even better." That is their—Maya's recommendation! And… I do not care for smoked salt. But it seems like a fun thing to try, otherwise! And I bet—if you like smoked salt, I bet it'd be delicious! Josh, you do any—
01:11:42	Josh	Guest	Yeah.
01:11:43	John	Host	You do any weird modifications with your ice cream?
01:11:46	Josh	Guest	No, I'm pretty, uh…
01:11:47	John	Host	Pretty vanilla?
01:11:48	Josh	Guest	Pretty meat and pota—[laughing] meat and potatoes with my ice cream.
01:11:51	John	Host	That's—meat and potatoes is my other favorite flavor of Voodoo, uh, Doughnut. [Josh laughs.] Go on.
01:11:58	Josh	Guest	I love it. Um… I—but I—I'll get the, like, fancy, boutique pints of ice cream, and eat them slowly over the week. That's what I do.
01:12:07	John	Host	Eat them slowly over the week?
01:12:09	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm! They're pretty good.
01:12:10	John	Host	Slowly taking off top layer after top layer.
01:12:14	Josh	Guest	I do—[sighs].
01:12:15	John	Host	Never mining the core.
01:12:15	Josh	Guest	I—because it is mine and mine alone—my wife and I do not share ice cream often—then I'm—I take a few liberties. If I see a big chunk of something I want, I take it out and put it in my bowl with no compunction.
01:12:29	John	Host	You know what, Josh?
01:12:30	Josh	Guest	Mm-hm?
01:12:31	John	Host	And listeners of the world? However you enjoy ice cream is the way you enjoy ice cream. And you should revel in it. Just get what you want! You deserve to get what you want in life! Obviously, there are times when… we have to share; there are times when we should share; there's times we have no choice but to share. But there are also certain gifts that we have to give ourselves from time to time, too. Your own ice cream, the way you want it? That's a good thing. I think you deserve it. Josh? You did a good job; you deserve ice cream.
01:13:00	Josh	Guest	Thank you!
01:13:01	John	Host	Jennifer Marmor? …You did a good job; you deserve ice cream.
01:13:05	Jennifer	Producer	Thank you!
01:13:06	John	Host	Don't give any to your baby.
01:13:08	Jennifer	Producer	No problem. I won't.
01:13:09	John	Host	[Laughing] Okay. [Josh laughs.] That's a mean thing to say.
01:13:11	Jennifer	Producer	He doesn't know it's good yet.
01:13:13	John	Host	Yes!
01:13:14	Josh	Guest	I have a friend whose parents told—told her that yogurt was ice cream until she was, like… seven, and figured it out.
01:13:22	John	Host	Parents, don't lie to your children. [Josh laughs, John stifles laughter.] Don't—[stifles laughter]—don't tell—don't tell them that yogurt is ice cream, and you know how I feel about… Santa Claus. The docket is clear! That's the end of episode one of Judge Josh Gondelman. [Josh cracks up.] Our producer is Jennifer Marmor. Thank you, Josh, for joining me today! Josh, uh, where can people find you on social media?
01:13:44	Josh	Guest	I am on Instagram and Twitter at @joshgondelman. G-O-N-D-E-L… "man."
01:13:51	John	Host	You got joshgondelman for both your Instagram and Twitter handle?
01:13:53	Josh	Guest	Yeah.
01:13:54	John	Host	[Exhales sharply.] Pretty cool.
01:13:55	Josh	Guest	I—I had to—[exhales sharply, stifling laughter] I spent tens of thousands of dollars buying off another Josh Gondelman.
01:13:59	John	Host	[Laughs.] It would make me so sad if you did that. Follow us on Twitter!
01:14:02	Josh	Guest	[Laughing] That would be horrible!
01:14:04	John	Host	I'm at @hodgman. But on Instagram, I'm johnhodgman. 'Cause "hodgman" was taken, and that person has not updated it in ten years! Whoever that is. As a show, we are on Instagram at @judgejohnhodgman. Please follow us, like us, bookmark us, send your stories, comment more than four words, get us into that algorithm. Make sure to hashtag your Judge John Hodgman social media #JJHo, and check out the Maximum Fun subreddit if you'd like to discuss this episode. I'll be jumping into the subreddit a little bit more these days. Submit your cases at MaximumFun.org/jjho, or email me, hodgman@maximumfun.org. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge… Josh-on… Hodgegelman podcast.
01:14:50	Josh	Guest	[Laughing] The perfect name for a podcast.
01:14:54	Sound Effect	Transition	[Three gavel bangs.]
01:14:57	John	Host	Surprise post-credits sequence! That's right. The Judge John Hodgman Expanded Universe is back on! With… the extra content that no one requested! Until I started doing it, and now it's expected! The other week I asked you to write in to tell me, when was the age that you never et a tomato until? Or if you had never et a tomato at all! I don't know why I did this; I get enough mail. But it was very nice to hear from you all, and I am very glad to share with you, now… the roll call of the tomato never-etters! These are the people who wrote in to say that they have never et a tomato until later of life, or even until this very day; they've never et one even now! So… let's go!
01:15:39	Music	Music	Music plays.
01:15:41	John	Host	Padric B., age 36, never et. Quote, "not even a piece." Bethany P. of Edinboro never et any tomato 'til age 19, when Bethany P. had their first slice of pizza. They waited so long because of childhood dairy aversion, and maybe because of Edinboro. I don't know… if there's pizza there. Or they—if it's even pizza! Greg C., age unknown, whose dislike of tomatoes betrays his own family legacy; his grandfather was a tomato farmer! Benjamin K, age 51, never et. Repulsed when family members in Georgia make a tomato and mayonnaise sandwich, one of my favorites, but guess what? Benjamin K. holds his tongue, 'cause people like what they like. Chuck Bryant, famous podcaster of Georgia, never et a slice of tomato. Adam M., age 42, never et one! Also never et pickles, cucumbers, cherries, plums, mangos, strawberries, watermelon, and bananas! Fresh or un-fresh. Keeping it picky, Adam M.!
01:16:37	John	Host	Alan C., age 53! Never et! And says he is at the age when he can be stubborn. Ty B., age 41, has never… swallowed a tomato. Quote, he's never "swallowed a tomato." Weird loophole, Ty, I don't know what you're doing. Kim G., age 35, never et one. In part because Kim G. lives with autism, and finds many tastes and textures overwhelming. Kim asked Judge John Hodgman—that's me—to stop sneering at people with texture issues on the podcast. I didn't realize I did that, Kim. I apologize. I won't do it again. Robin F., age 39, never et one! Reports that even, quote, "tomato sludge on a sandwich where a tomato has been removed," is disgusting, and Robin N. gives it to their wife to eat. Kayla O., age unknown, never et one. Kayla has also never et a sandwich or a burrito! In their life! Never et a sandwich! They're working on it.
01:17:31	John	Host	Tom Hale never ate a hamburger 'til age 26, and then never again 'til age 37. Doesn't like hamburgers. In both cases, no tomato. Andrew C. You are not the unicorn you claimed to be in your email. Lots of people apparently have never et tomatoes! You're one of them, at age 39. Never et one. James E., age 54, never et a tomato. Nor never et an onion! Lex F., age 40, never et one! And also, never drunk coffee 'til this year! Robert E., age 44, never et a tomato. But he said if I read his letter out loud, he will et one! Okay, do it, Robert E., go et one!
01:18:09	John	Host	Andrew G., age 29, never et one. Always thought they were alone in the world; obviously not true. J.M.'s son, age ten, never et a tomato. But that's perfectly reasonable. He's a—he's a—he's a child. That's perfectly fine. There's still time to et a tomato. Lucas O., age 34, never et a tomato. Allergic to all nightshades! Including tomato, eggplant, pepper—potatoes! And tobacco. I didn't know a potato was a nightshade. Lory T., age late 30s, never et a tomato. Lory T.'s dad used to say that eating tomatoes and all veggies would, quote, "put hair on their chest." This made Lory feel that they would never become, quote, "a proper woman," and was especially distressing to Lory because they never felt sufficiently girly when they were young! And only in the last few years has Lory realized that they are nonbinary. So there you go! Dads! Go easy on jokes! Jokes… Jokes are not always great.
01:19:04	John	Host	Karen J., age 36, never et one, and is sickened by all fruits. Though they have tried a fresh banana. Thomas R., age 54, never et one. Also loves beans, but hates lentils, and once in the army ate only plain bread for three days straight. And finally, J. Michael S., age 39, never et a tomato. J. Michael also reports, quote, "I grew up in Quincy, Massachusetts, where I did children's theatre with the Doughboys' Mike Mitchell. If you and Jesse ever want to see a video of Mitch playing LeFou in Beauty and the Beast at age 12, I'm your guy." Yes, J. Michael S., you are my guy. Get me that tape! So that we can play it someday in another secret post-credits sequence. Meanwhile, if you have never et a tomato, now you know you are not alone. Therefore, you do not need to write me any more about it. But… I love you. Talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. [Music ends.]
01:19:59	Music	Transition	A cheerful ukulele chord.
01:20:00	Speaker 1	Guest	MaximumFun.org.
01:20:02	Speaker 2	Guest	Comedy and culture.
01:20:04	Speaker 3	Guest	Artist owned—
01:20:05	Speaker 4	Guest	—audience supported.

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