Transcript
sound effect
[Three gavel bangs.]
tre'vell anderson
Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm Guest Bailiff Tre'vell Anderson, filling in for Jesse. We are in chambers this week to clear the docket. How is life going for you, Judge?
john hodgman
Well, you know, we started doing this thing where we can see each other! You've been a guest on the show before. We did a docket-clearing with Bailiff Jesse Thorn.
tre'vell
Yes.
john
If you don't know—and you really should—Tre'vell is the co-host with Jarrett Hill of the FANTI (fan-tie) podcast on the Maximum Fun network. Which is a great conversation, and it started all the way back on the 6th of February.
tre'vell
Ooh, yes.
john
Right? And it started as basically a fun, pop culture–fueled podcast of you and Jarrett talking about problematic faves.
tre'vell
Very much so, yes.
john
Things in culture that you like, but—I mean, first episode of course being Kevin Hart. Problematic fave.
tre'vell
Yes! [Laughs.]
john
Right?
tre'vell
Well, it was about—the whole podcast, right, is about having—our tagline is "Having these complex and complicated conversations—"
john
Yeah.
tre'vell
"—about the gray areas in our lives."
john
Yeah.
tre'vell
The people you love, but also have anti feelings toward.
john
Right! You have "fan of—"
tre'vell
Yes!
john
—and "anti."
tre'vell
There we go. [Chuckles.]
john
And that—that's the reason that the show is called F—Fahn-tee. Right?
tre'vell
Fahn-tee. Yes.
john
Yep. [Both laugh.] You did one on why white people love Wakanda, which that cut—cut a little bit close to the bone, I'll tell you, and, uh— [Tre'vell laughs.] You know, but so you've been leading complicated and hard conversations for a long time, and now that has naturally intersected with this moment of profound protest and reckoning—
tre'vell
Yes!
john
—with systemic anti-Blackness.
tre'vell
Yes!
john
And injustice. And I just have to say, you know, last couple of episodes that I listened to, the conversations were really... bracing, and inspiring, and smart, and funny.
tre'vell
I like all those words.
john
And, you know, like everyone—the deal is, like, you gotta have these conversations, but it's so hard and it's so emotional.
tre'vell
Mm-hm.
john
I mean, even for me. A guy who has benefited from 400 years of systematic racism.
tre'vell
Mm-hm.
john
That the goal is to keep the conversation going, so people don't turn it off.
tre'vell
Yeah.
john
And to keep the pressure on this moment, so that some real structural change happens, instead of just some window dressing and we all go home.
tre'vell
That's what we're hoping for. Right?
john
I think the way that you have been addressing and leading those conversations over at FANTI (fan-tie)—that's how to actually pronounce the podcast. I know how it's pronounced. [Tre'vell laughs.] Just so great. So I really urge Judge John Hodgman listeners, if they are not already subscribing to FANTI, do—do it!
tre'vell
Yes!
john
Don't don't do it! Do do do it!
tre'vell
[Laughs.] Yes!
john
Today is July the 1st. Rabbit, rabbit. Of course June was Pride Month. Tre'vell, how was your Pride Month? It's a weird one.
tre'vell
It was a very weird one. A different one. But also one that was very much the same.
john
Mm-hm.
tre'vell
You know, we saw all of the protests and the unrest happening, and you know, Pride at its inception was a protest.
john
Right.
tre'vell
And so for me, it wasn't that much different. I think we were able to see a lot more conversations being had within the LGBTQ community that took into account intersectionality, and took into account how it was, you know, Black and brown queer and trans folks who got this stuff started in the first place.
john
Yeah.
tre'vell
And so for me, it's been really great to see people coming to that realization who might not have known that information prior.
john
Now, look. I don't mean to be a know-it-all. [Tre'vell laughs.] But I know—I know all about that history of Pride, and its roots in actual direct action protest, and you know why I know?
tre'vell
Why?
john
'Cause I read your piece!
tre'vell
Oh!
tre'vell
Yes! You know, I've been doing some writing about the moment as well.
john
Yeah. It's a great piece.
tre'vell
And so it's—I can't hate what Pride Month has been like. We also got some great news recently from the Supreme Court, as it relates to LGBTQ people not being able to be fired for just being LGBTQ, and it affirms a whole bunch of other rights for LGBTQ people just, like, moving through the world. And so I think that was a really great moment to happen during Pride Month, during these conversations we're having about social unrest and accountability.
john
Yeah.
tre'vell
It's been—it's been okay! It's been okay.
john
Yeah. It's been a lot of downs.
tre'vell
Yes! But some ups. A couple ups!
john
Some ups. And some mediums.
tre'vell
[Chuckling] Very much so.
john
[Laughs.] You don't get big ups without some real downs.
tre'vell
That's what they tell me. That is what they tell me.
john
If we just kept it at medium all the time—I mean, that's part of the—that was part of the problem. So...
tre'vell
Very much so. And you know, there is—I do wanna be clear to say there's still much more work to be done.
john
Yes.
tre'vell
There's still so much more to be won, and to be fought for, but it's good to celebrate the wins when we get them.
john
[Exhales like an appreciative whistle.] Yeah! Well. This, as you know, is a podcast about... wins. [Tre'vell laughs.] I'll be honest with you. It's a hard time to do a podcast—[stifles laughter]—that is based on the criminal justice system, hosted by a white man pretending to be a judge. [Tre'vell laughs.] Little complicated. Little complicated. Little FANTI for my—you know what I mean.
tre'vell
You know, life is complicated! Hey.
john
That's right. But what we do here is we hear disputes. It is not criminal court. It is more court of the human heart... and some small claims thrown in. [Tre'vell chuckles.] And we have disputes, and someone will win, and someone will lose in each dispute. And you're gonna help me clear the docket today, Tre'vell. Thank you for doing it. Let's get into it!
tre'vell
Let's get into it! First up, we have something from Andrea (Ahn-dray-uh)—or Andrea (Ann-dree-uh). You know. Depending on where she's from.
john
Yeah. FANTI or Fahn-tee.
tre'vell
[Laughs.] She says: "I don't like being tickled. But my husband Shane refuses to listen to me about this."
john
Shane...
tre'vell
"Over the 11 years that we've been together, we've had countless conversations about this issue. But he has yet to stop. He thinks that tickling is fun even if I don't enjoy it. What's more, he'll use tickling as a threat."
john
Oh, boy.
tre'vell
"For example, he'll say, 'If you don't move, I'll tickle you.'" [John snorts.] "I would appreciate an order that he stop tickling me."
john
Let me just say, first of all... super producer Jennifer Marmor? You know what name I'm a fan of? [Tre'vell laughs quietly.]
jennifer marmor
[Stifling laughter] No.
john
Shane.
jennifer
Oh, me too!
john
Yeah. Really like that name. I know some good Shanes.
jennifer
I do as well.
john
Yeah. [Tre'vell laughs.] Is Shane a good Shane or a bad Shane for tickling without consent?
tre'vell
Okay, I think the obvious is that you should always have consent of your partner—
john
Yeah.
tre'vell
—for whatever activity is taking place. That's what my—that's what I think my gut is saying. However, I have some questions.
john
Please.
tre'vell
And one of my questions is... Maybe Shane has a thing for tickling?
john
Yes. Oh!
tre'vell
Yes, one of those things, yes.
john
Uh-huh!
tre'vell
And so I wonder if it's—you know, there's a really great, weird documentary called Tickled that came out a couple years ago.
john
Yeah.
tre'vell
And I just wonder if, you know, Shane might be, you know, a perfect candidate for that documentary, and therefore there's something more—
john
Mm-hm.
tre'vell
—to him being interested in tickling Andrea.
john
Yeah.
tre'vell
Than just, you know, making her mad or making her upset. You know?
john
Now, I did not see that documentary.
tre'vell
Mmm.
john
I hear it takes a... strange turn. Have you seen it?
tre'vell
Yes, I have! [Both laugh quietly.] It does take a—um... a very peculiar turn.
john
Yeah. Okay.
tre'vell
Which makes me think of it and bring it up in this moment, because, you know, some people really like... tickling!
john
Yeah. So you're saying that Shane is perhaps expressing... a kink.
tre'vell
Yes.
john
That for Shane, has no name as yet.
tre'vell
Yes.
john
Shane does not know— [Tre'vell laughs.] —or feel comfortable enough to say to Andrea (Ahn-dree-uh) or Andrea (Ahn-dray-uh)—maybe he doesn't even know how to pronounce her name. [Tre'vell laughs.] Maybe that's—the level of their communication is so bad. [Laughs.]
tre'vell
You would hope it was better 11 years in, but...
john
Yeah.
tre'vell
...you never know!
john
Maybe Shane is wanting to say, like, "This—I really—this makes me—" And I'm just gonna say this, 'cause we have a lot of precocious, weird 13-year-olds who listen. [Tre'vell laughs.] So you know what I'm talking about when I'm talking about sex.
tre'vell
Yes.
john
I also read about it once. [Tre'vell laughs.] This is a—this may be a sexy thing for Shane!
tre'vell
It might be!
john
Yeah.
tre'vell
It might be! I—that's the immediate thought that I have when I read this question, this statement.
john
Right. So I think we're in agreement that Shane needs to—Shane needs consent.
tre'vell
Yes.
john
To do things to another person's body.
tre'vell
Yes.
john
And it's pretty clear that Andrea (Ann-dree-uh)—or Andrea (Ahn-dray-uh)— [Tre'vell laughs quietly.] —is not into this, currently.
tre'vell
At all.
john
If it's the case that Shane is listening to this podcast, and he's like, "Yeah, you know what? I really do—I get it now. I just—I—this makes me... excited in a special way. I would like to enjoy this with my partner. I don't wanna violate her space. So I'm gonna talk to her about it, and I'm gonna say, 'First of all... Wife. Would you remind me how you pronounce your name?' And get that right, finally." [Both laugh.] "And then I'm gonna say, 'This—this kinda makes me feel special, and excited. Can I do it anyway? Does that change the equation?'"
tre'vell
Well, no. Because she's made it clear that she don't like it.
john
Right.
tre'vell
Right? And so maybe this is an opportunity for them to have a conversation about—
john
Mm-hm.
tre'vell
—a way for him to, you know—if this is something that he really enjoys, a way for—I don't know. I'm—I'm sure there are other toys, or other apparatuses that might be available to help, you know, allow him to carry out his—his feelings.
john
The Judge John Hodgman show should go to eBay and buy a 25-year-old Tickle Me Elmo and send it to this guy. [Tre'vell cracks up.] Look! Jennifer Marmor, do we have it in the budget?
jennifer
I think we can find some room for it. [Stifles laughter.]
john
Alright. Yeah, that's... Think of us whenever MaxFunCon happens. [Tre'vell recovers.] I see what you're saying. 'Cause I think that it is unlikely that it is possible. I do not know Andrea's mind. That's the whole point of this.
tre'vell
Mm-hm.
john
Is that people in a relationship—a loving relationship—need to communicate. They need to be straightforward. They need to have the uncomfortable conversations.
tre'vell
Yes.
john
It is, I would think, unlikely, if I were Andrea and Shane said to me, "I want to tickle you 'cause it makes me feel... good..." [Tre'vell laughs quietly.] ...that I would be like, "Oh, that changes everything. Go for it. Here are my armpits." [Both laugh.] "I love you and I want you to be happy."
tre'vell
Right.
john
Could be—could happen that way!
tre'vell
Maybe?
john
But you'll never know unless you have that conversation, and it might open up, as, you know, Tre'vell, you say... an avenue towards more conversations about way to get out one's healthy, fun, special, intimate things. [Tre'vell laughs quietly.] Could be. My wife and I have a son, 14 years old. And you know what you do with kids, is you tickle 'em from time to time.
tre'vell
Mm-hm.
john
And then I had to have a hard think about that. You know? Because they're human beings! And I used to hate being tickled.
tre'vell
Mm.
john
But it's fun to tickle little kids.
tre'vell
Yes.
john
They seem to enjoy it. I almost went over and tickled my 14-year-old son today. [Tre'vell laughs quietly.] While he was playing Apex... Legends, or whatever. [Both laugh.] He's been doing his computer schoolwork, but otherwise he's just in his PlayStation world. [Tre'vell laughs quietly.] I reached down, and I was just gonna shove my fingers under his armpit! I just wanted to tickle that guy again! I was like, "This is a—he is as tall as I am!" And by the way, he's 14; I don't wanna be anywhere near his armpit. You know what I mean? [Tre'vell laughs.] But also, he is and has always been a whole human being!
tre'vell
Mm.
john
Who deserves the right to not be tickled, if they don't feel like it. So... I'm not saying, "Parents, never tickle your kids," but I think it starts even earlier than before—than marriage. [Both laugh.] I mean, I don't—you tickle—you tickle—it's—obviously it's a form of intimacy, right?
tre'vell
Yes.
john
But I mean, you know, read the room! [Tre'vell laughs.] It's not your right to tickle anyone in your world. Have a conversation about it. Alright. Tre'vell, what's next?
tre'vell
What's next? Alright, we have Johann says: "One of my best friends—let's call him Ragnarök—" [John snorts, Tre'vell stifles laughter.] "—claims he has never farted in his life. All of us in the friend group have never heard him fart." Surely a quality to envy. [John laughs.] "We have all smelled it, and said nothing. It's the Nordic non-confrontational silent way. My evidence in this case is twofold. One, I Googled search—I Googled, 'Is it possible to not fart?' And it led to undisputed results in my favor. And two, Ragnarök's mother confirmed her son's natural flatulence." [Both laugh.] "My request may arrive from envy, but nevertheless, I seek justice for claims against the laws of nature, mother nature, and mother. Thank you for reading my case."
john
Thank you, Tre'vell, for reading Johann's case. [Tre'vell laughs.] Out loud!
tre'vell
Out loud. Never said "farted" that much in my life. [Both laugh.]
john
Ragnarök, by the way, Tre'vell, I believe is Johann's attempt to bribe this court by secretly buzz-marketing my 2012 Netflix stand-up special called Ragnarok.
tre'vell
Mm!
john
Which then got ditched off of Netflix. And is not available anywhere in the world. [Tre'vell laughs quietly.] Except in I would imagine 50 or so deluxe DVD sets that are moldering on a pallet in Easthampton, Massachusetts, in the TopatoCo warehouse there. You can buy 'em.
tre'vell
Mm.
john
Those special sets. If you still have a DVD player, that's how you can see my thing. And the—Ragnarok comes with a—the special set comes not only with the DVD, but also a Hodgman-branded non-gendered cologne. A scent.
tre'vell
Mm! Mm.
john
And as well a jar of custom-blended mayonnaise.
tre'vell
Oh!
john
That now is just poison. Don't—don't open it. [Both laugh.] That's just a little plug. Go to the MaxFunStore or TopatoCo.com and check me out. Does FANTI have merch, by the way?
tre'vell
We don't. Not yet!
john
Yeah.
tre'vell
So stay tuned.
john
Don't lurch, get merch.
tre'vell
Don't lurch, get merch! There we go. [Laughs.]
john
But everyone was like, "I saw that Netflix took it off."
tre'vell
Mm-hm.
john
And people were saying, "Why'd they take it off?" and I was like, "I have no idea." [Tre'vell laughs quietly.] And then a theory developed, that's like, "Well, they took it—Ragnarok off because they had released the Thor: Ragnarok movie."
tre'vell
I was going to suggest that, yes!
john
Yeah. And I let people believe that for a long period of time. [Both laugh.] I really wanted to believe that, you know, Phineas Netflix, the CEO of Netflix, was there like, "This really pains me. I want to preserve John Hodgman's work for the ages." [Tre'vell laughs.] "And it costs us literally nothing to not press the button to delete it." [Laughs.] "It could be there. It's like, we have unlimited resources." [Tre'vell laughs.] "But we—my hands are tied! Marvel Studios is telling me I have to cancel John Hodgman's Ragnarok."
tre'vell
That's hilarious. [Laughs.]
john
And then obviously it was not true. 'Cause Disney+ came in and grabbed up all that Marvel property off of Netflix, and they did not call me up going, "At last, John! Ragnarok is available now!" [Tre'vell laughs quietly.] No. Netflix will never have it on again. Netflix, if you're listening, I don't want you. I don't want you to put it back on.
tre'vell
Oh! [Laughs.]
john
Anyway. Yeah. It's called reverse psychology.
tre'vell
I see what you're doing there.
john
Anyway, that's all—that was all my plug. [Both laugh.] I just wanted to explain—I really wanted to thank everyone on Twitter and the rest of the world who came up with that fantasy. That my special wasn't on Netflix anymore because Marvel... even knows who I am.
tre'vell
That they were trying to silence you!
john
Yeah. That was a very self-protective fantasy that I needed for a while. [Tre'vell laughs.] But I'm—but you know, this is a time to cast off self-protective fantasies, and see the real truth!
tre'vell
Yes. [Laughs.]
john
Anyway. Tre'vell, what do you think about Johann's fight with his friend Ragnarök?
tre'vell
You know... I think that—we know that everyone, you know, has flatulence. It's just—it's just natural. I think that it is interesting, though, because no one wants to—no one wants anyone to know that they have flatulence when they... are flatulating. I think that's the right—
john
Yes.
tre'vell
—conjugation of that word. And so I don't know if I blame Ragnarök for denying.
john
Mm-hm.
tre'vell
You know? Because, you know, you don't want people to know that it smells like somebody, you know, or something crawled up inside of you and died when it came out.
john
Right! Right!
tre'vell
You know? That's not comforting!
john
Yeah, no!
tre'vell
That's not friendship! You know, and allyship.
john
Yeah!
tre'vell
[Laughs.] And so I think it's one of those just, like, open secrets. We all know that everyone farts, but like, no one actually talks about it.
john
Yeah! If someone farts in the room, the polite thing to do is be like—quietly agree, "We all do this from time to time. Let's not pick on the person."
tre'vell
[Laughs quietly.] Exactly.
john
We are no longer in fifth grade, or whatever.
tre'vell
[Laughs.] Exactly.
john
He/she/they who dealt it... what is it, they—he who dealt it smelt it?
tre'vell
Smelt it dealt it! If you smelt it, you dealt it. Something like that.
john
Oh, right, right, right.
tre'vell
Yeah.
john
Yeah. Here's my feeling about that: who cares who smelt it? Who cares who dealt it? We've got bigger things to do!
tre'vell
Yes! Open the window!
john
That's right.
tre'vell
Get your priorities straight! You know? [Laughs quietly.]
john
Ragnarök, however, is—[laughs]—making a ludicrous claim that he has never farted in his life.
tre'vell
Yes.
john
And I've only ever met one other person who made that claim.
tre'vell
Mm!
john
And that person made that claim to me. And that person is my wife. With the first year of our dating. And I would say that I believed her for ten years.
tre'vell
Mmm.
john
Before she finally said, "No, I was just joking." [Both laugh.] I believed that there could be a human who could not fart! And that person was my wife! And then I learned a decade later: "You're dumb, John. Of course everyone farts."
tre'vell
Mm-hm. Mm-hm.
john
That's what I learned, Ragnarök. That's what I learned, Johann. I think that it's fine to deny farting.
tre'vell
Mm-hm.
john
I think that it's fine to not bring it up. To sin—to lie by omission, by not saying every time you farted, "That was me. That was me!" [Tre'vell laughs.] You don't have to do that. But when asked directly, "Did you fart?" I think a principle of human interaction should be to tell the truth as much as possible.
tre'vell
Yes! Or at least not lie.
john
Right. And definitely, "never farted in his life" is a lie.
tre'vell
[Laughs.] Very much so.
john
Ragnarök, this is what it comes down to. Everyone's a farter; don't be a liar. You have choice over one, and you don't have choice over the other. [Tre'vell laughs quietly.] I'll let you figure it out.
tre'vell
I love that. Well, let's take a quick break. More items on the docket coming up in just a minute on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.
sound effect
[Three gavel bangs.]
john
Hey, everyone. This is your Judge John Hodgman again. Judge John Hodgman, as you know, is a podcast. You know this! You're listening to it. And it's brought to you each and every week by... you. Our listeners. And especially our Maximum Fun members. Thank you. But we're also excited to be partners this week with our friends at Miro. Look, I haven't worked in an office in 20 years. You know, remote working has been a reality for me for a long time. But do you know what I miss, from working in an office? Aside from snacks? Whiteboards! I love a whiteboard. I love the look of a clean whiteboard. I love a whiteboard that has all kinds of ideas written on it. Miro is an online whiteboard that brings teams together any time, anywhere. They're bringing the whiteboard back! They brought it back, for remote working! Their infinite canvas is perfect for brainstorming, making mock-ups, organizing files, managing complex projects, and better than that, it looks like a whiteboard! You just—[stifles laughter]—you just set up your online meeting, and you've got a whiteboard there, and everyone can work, and add stuff to the whiteboard, and make little drawings, and add Post-its, and it's a great visual way to think and collaborate as a team! This is something a whiteboard can't do. A regular whiteboard can't integrate with programs you use like Google Drive. You say to a regular whiteboard, "Um, yeah, let me move all of this to Dropbox," the whiteboard says nothing back. 'Cause it's a whiteboard. It's not advanced technology. You can synchronize and integrate the programs you use. I said Google Drive and Dropbox, but did I mention Jira? Slack? You can even video chat with co-workers while you're in Miro! You can video chat the whiteboard, they're up there in the corner, you're chatting, you're talking, you're working, you're getting everything done.
john
Start collaborating for free when you sign up for an account at Miro.com/hodgman. That's Miro—M-I-R-O—.com/hodgman, spelled H-O-D-G-M-A-N. No "E" in "Hodgman." To sign up for a free account with unlimited team members! Miro.com/hodgman.
sound effect
[Three gavel bangs.]
promo
Music: Inspiring music throughout. [The “testimonials” clip between different VOs. They are not talking to one another.] Speaker 1: I started listening to Oh No Ross and Carrie shortly after I broke my arm, and the doctor had told me I’d never walk again. Speaker 2: I couldn't get my book started. Speaker 3: I was lost. Honestly. Speaker 4: I knew it was time to make a change. [Music swells hopefully, to a dramatic crescendo.] Speaker 2: There’s something about Oh No Ross and Carrie that you just can’t get anywhere else. Speaker 1: They’re thought-leaders, discoverers, founders. Speaker 3: I'd call them heroes.
promo
Speaker 5: Ross and Carrie don’t just report on fringe science, spirituality, and claims of the paranormal. They take part themselves. Speaker 3: They show up, so you don’t have to. Speaker 4: But you might find that you want to. [Music swells unbearably.] Speaker 1: My arm is better. I can walk again! Speaker 2: I wrote an entire book this weekend! It—it's terrible, but I did it! Speaker 3: Just go to MaximumFun.org. Everyone: Thank you, Ross and Carrie! [Music fades out.] Carrie Poppy: [Hurriedly] Oh No Ross and Carrie is just a podcast. It doesn’t do anything. It’s just sounds you listen to in your ears. All these people are made up. Goodbye.
sound effect
[Three gavel bangs.]
tre'vell
Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm Guest Bailiff Tre'vell Anderson, filling in for Jesse. This week we are clearing the docket. Next case we have is from Allison, and she says: "Derek and I are former partners, and co-owners of two dogs."
john
Ope! Sitcom!
tre'vell
[Laughs.] "During our dog-walks together, Derek frequently rants and complains about pointless things that he can't control. I'd like you to order Derek to be more considerate of my experience during our walks, and limit his complaining. I am terminally ill—"
john
Oh!
tre'vell
"—but still well enough to walk through nature with my friend and dogs. I would like to spend this time having pleasant conversations, or enjoying the sounds of nature. I think it's unfair that Derek hijacks the air so frequently, and I want him to tone it down."
john
Wow. Well, that is not a sitcom, Allison. That is an incredibly hard human drama. I'm so, so... sorry to hear that news. And as someone—and I think many people have, who have lived and supported terminally ill people in the past, this is an extremely hard experience, and I really am grateful that, uh, you are handling it well enough to bring Derek before this case, to do me the honor of telling him to shut the—eff up!
tre'vell
Yes.
john
Hoo!
tre'vell
[Laughs.] Yes.
john
What else is there to say, Tre'vell?
tre'vell
There isn't really much to say. And I do wanna be clear that I think this goes beyond even Allison being terminally ill.
john
Of course.
tre'vell
I mean, it goes—it goes just into like, friendships and relationships—
john
Yeah. Of course.
tre'vell
—and communication, and you can't take up all the air! You can't throw your problems on other people for them to shoulder without also being willing to have them throw their problems on you. You've gotta share the space! You've gotta share the air! And it's compounded because she is terminally ill. You really need to shut your mouth—
john
Yeah!
tre'vell
—and allow Allison to be able to enjoy the things that give her joy!
john
Yeah! I mean, Derek, you shouldn't have to wait until your friend is dying to shut up for once and listen.
tre'vell
Exactly.
john
You know? Because, I mean, not to be blunt, but... our friends will not always be there! And when you're there with them, you wanna share that time with them. People think they're immortal. And, you know, there are no silver linings to what's been going on over the past two months, but I think—this one's for the kids, too. Kids, you're gonna die. We all are. It's an idea to people, and only an idea to people, until they go through a process like Allison and her family is going through.
tre'vell
Mm-hm.
john
And it's necessary for our survival to put that idea to the back of our head.
tre'vell
Mm-hm.
john
But it's necessary for our humanity to grab that idea and look at it every once in a while. And realize, "I don't know what happens after this, but I know that this is limited."
tre'vell
Yes.
john
And, you know, you can't treat your time—and other people's time!—like time is endless. That's the most... nice way I can put what Derek is doing, is just a little boneheadedness. Doesn't get it. Doesn't get it. Maybe doesn't—and you know what, to be fair to Derek, probably doesn't wanna get it. Probably doesn't want to stop talking, because he knows that if he stops talking, he's gonna be contemplating the silence that is gonna come.
tre'vell
But we've gotta get comfortable with the silence, and the thoughts that come in said silence, right?
john
Yeah. Yeah. That's right. As much as I'm doing it right now, you c—[stifles laughter]—you can't avoid your problems by filling up silence with a lot of talk. [Both laugh.] So be there for your former partner, and your current dog co-parent!
tre'vell
Yes!
john
Derek. And I know that you're hurting. But making things feel like they always do—and obviously, in your relationship with Allison, Derek, the tradition is that you just complain and moan all the time. [Tre'vell laughs quietly.] And you want to—you wanna cling to that normalcy. But we don't get to go back to normal. All we can do is build a new and better normal. And that means being aware of what's going on. But I feel for—I really, truly feel for both of you. And Allison, thank you for being a listener. You know, when people are going through hard times, it is my hope that this podcast can be a distraction. And I hope that that has, uh—this is a happy distraction for you. And I hope that you enjoy this win! Enjoy it so much, Allison! 'Cause I am really, really judging in your favor.
tre'vell
Lovely. Alright. So we—next up, we have something from Kira. And she says: "This is not necessarily a case, as there is not really a second party. However, the tale is such. A few months ago, my trash can was stolen from my sidewalk. I reported it, and was delivered a new trash can. Last Friday, my old trash can was out at the curb. I added the new one. The trash was picked up."
john
Is this a story, or a logic puzzle? Like, I— [Both laugh.]
tre'vell
A little bit of both, maybe!
john
"Three trash cans were on the sidewalk!" [Tre'vell laughs.] "Red, white, and green." [Tre'vell laughs.] "Two were flying at 15 miles per hour. One could never tell a lie. The other was a vampire, and could only lie. What continent am I on?" [Both laugh.]
tre'vell
Antarctica.
john
Yeah. Huh! [Both laugh.]
tre'vell
Okay. So... "I added the new one. The trash is picked up. And then I took both trash cans back to my house. Two days later, I realized that someone had come around and taken one of the trash cans from the side of my house! What should I do? I'm sure I could find the trash can at someone else's place, but I suspect it would just be stolen right back. But it doesn't seem fair that they're not paying for trash pickup by using my trash can."
john
Hoo. Okay. Should Kira become trash can detective... [Tre'vell laughs.] ...and find her trash can? We'll figure it out. Tre'vell, first of all, you live in Los Angeles, correct?
tre'vell
I do, yes.
john
Did I hear—and I'm not—I don't wanna triangulate where you live, but I think you mentioned on FANTI...
tre'vell
Yes?
john
...you live on Fountain, in Los Angeles?
tre'vell
I probably did mention that, yes! I live on Fountain in Los Angeles in the middle of Hollywood.
john
Fountain's one of the best avenues. That's all I'm saying.
tre'vell
Oh!
john
It's a great one. I love Fountain.
tre'vell
Thank you. [Laughs.]
john
Yeah. What's trash collection like on Fountain?
tre'vell
So I live in an apartment complex, and so we have like a dumpster-type situation.
john
Right.
tre'vell
However, what it seems like Kira is saying is that she pays for trash collection and they provide an actual—
john
Right.
tre'vell
What do you call it? A trash can.
john
Yeah.
tre'vell
In exchange for the payment.
john
Got it.
tre'vell
And someone stole hers, because I guess by the very nature of having a trash can, it means that you're paying for trash collection.
john
Right.
tre'vell
And so the person—because now they have a trash can—doesn't have to pay.
john
Yeah.
tre'vell
Which I want to just say seems a very kind of ingenuitive, innovative approach to, you know, circumventing—
john
Yeah.
tre'vell
—[stifles laughter]—some of these, you know, systems at play?
john
It's a crime of opportunity.
tre'vell
You know? I'm just like, "Hm." If someone who is paying for trash collection can just call up and say, "Hey! Don't know where my trash can is, can you bring me another one?" Why—why—why would I not be interested in circumventing the system in that way? I'm not advocating for it. I'm just saying.
john
No, of course! Right. [Tre'vell laughs.] Simply having the trash can, therefore, is physical proof that you have paid for trash collection. So this—the thief took the trash can—
tre'vell
Mm-hm.
john
—and got some free trash collection. But then brought it back!
tre'vell
And then brought it—because I wonder if they were like, "You know what?" What if it's a thief with a heart? And they were like—
john
Yeah.
tre'vell
"You know what? I don't wanna prevent you from being able to take out your trash all the time." So what if their idea was like, "We'll just share it!"? You know?
john
[Snorts.] Yeah.
tre'vell
"I'll do it one week. You do your trash the next week. And we can just flip-flop like that!"
john
Yeah. To me, it feels like this is either a misunderstanding...
tre'vell
[Chuckles.] Yes?
john
Once again due to lack of good human communication.
tre'vell
Mm-hm.
john
Or it's a kink. [Tre'vell bursts out laughing.] You know? I mean, I don't know—I don't know anything about the thief. [Tre'vell sighs.] They just love messing with Kira's mind!
tre'vell
Maybe that is what it is.
john
Grab that can. Steal it for a little while— [Both laugh.] Bring it back, in the middle of the night, with a rose on top?
tre'vell
Actually, I—I'm gonna challenge you!
john
Mm-hm.
tre'vell
What if this is somebody's ruse?
john
Yeah.
tre'vell
To get Kira to come looking for the trash can?
john
Yeah.
tre'vell
And then they fall madly in love when they find out who's been taking their trash can.
john
Right. But guess what? Trash can thief? Life is not a movie!
tre'vell
You sure?
john
Y—well, it's—I believe we're in a simulation. I'm definitely on that.
tre'vell
[Laughing] Okay.
john
Definitely feeling that. But life is not a romcom!
tre'vell
True.
john
Where stealing someone's stuff and returning it—[stifles laughter]—and manipulating a way to run into the other person results in a beautiful romance! Tre'vell, you have imagined the best possible, the most sympathetic explanation.
tre'vell
Yes.
john
Is that—[laughs]—is that Kira has a stalker. [Tre'vell laughs.] Who's using the trash cans, the trash can play, to provoke some kind of meet cute! But even that's no good. Because in the real world, people don't like—[laughs]—people don't like to be manipulated into meeting you! Have mutual respect, have conversation.
tre'vell
Yes.
john
Whether you're a neighbor who has a crush on Kira, or whether you're Kira and you just don't know what's going on, leave a note on the trash can! Say, "Please don't steal this. I don't know why you're doing this."
tre'vell
That's a good idea.
john
You know? Like, "I know that this is happening, and I don't want it to happen. Please don't." And I would suggest, if it's—I don't know what community that you live in that has this weird pay-for-trash-collection system. But if it's allowed, Kira, you should, you know, label your trash cans with your address. Spray paint. I don't know how you would do it. Stencil?
tre'vell
Yeah.
john
People don't do enough stenciling! This is a great opportunity to stencil! [Tre'vell laughs.] Get a custom stencil of your address, and spray paint your trash cans! And let garbage collection know that someone is swiping trash cans on your block, and that—and let them send out the professional trash can detectives. [Both laugh.] You don't have to be an amateur sleuth! We've had trash cans disputes on this podcast before.
tre'vell
Mm.
john
And the answer, as always, is if you don't know what's going on with your neighbors, try talking to them.
tre'vell
Yeah. Very simple.
john
Just talk to them! Yeah! Get yourself a night vision camera, put it up in front of your house— [Tre'vell laughs, John stifles laughter.] —monitor the trash cans, catch the person in the act, confront them, fall in love, have children!
tre'vell
Voila! Let's take a quick break. When we come back, we'll hear a case about noisy neighbors.
sound effect
[Three gavel bangs.]
promo
Music: “War” by Norman Whitfield and Barrett Strong with lead vocals by Edwin Starr plays in the background. John Roderick: Friendly Fire is a podcast about war movies, but it’s so much more than that. Adam Pranica: It’s history! Speaker 1 (Film clip): Was just supposed to be another assignment. Ben Harrison: It’s comedy. Speaker 2 (Film clip): Under no circumstances are you to engage the enemy. Adam: It’s... cinema studies. Murdock (Rambo: First Blood Part II): That's a hell of a combination. John: So, subscribe and download Friendly Fire on your podcatcher of choice. Ben: Or at MaximumFun.org. Speaker 3 (Film clip): [A strained whisper] Mission… accomplished. [Music fades out.]
sound effect
[Three gavel bangs.]
john
Guest Bailiff Tre'vell Anderson, co-host of FANTI, we are in chambers taking a break from the docket. What have you got going on? What's—what do you wanna plug? What do you wanna talk about? What's—what should people know?
tre'vell
What should people know? I don't know. You know, I'm a freelance journalist, so I'm out here writing the things, all over the place. And so, you know, if you wanna stay up to date on which outlet I'm writing for now, all that can be done on the Twitters, at @TrevellAnderson.
john
Yeah.
tre'vell
And then, you know, I always like to shout out some of the work that I do with the National Association of Black Journalists, of Los Angeles.
john
Yeah!
tre'vell
I am the president of the LA chapter.
john
Oh!
tre'vell
And we are always doing work, especially in this moment right now, to support Black journalists, newsroom diversity, make sure that these outlets are getting the right story.
john
Mm-hm!
tre'vell
And doing what they need to do in terms of accurately representing our vast communities.
john
That's great work. And that's the National Association of Black Journalists, Los Angeles.
tre'vell
Yes.
john
Fantastic! May I just talk about a dumb TV show that I made?
tre'vell
Please do! It's your show!
john
Right. [Tre'vell laughs.] So David Rees, who is on Twitter at @david_rees, R-E-E-S—ugh. Underscore... is my very dear friend and a longtime collaborator and co-schemer. David Rees, Tre'vell, hosted a TV show on the Nat Geo network.
tre'vell
Mm-hm.
john
Called Going Deep with David Rees. Really, really funny show. All episodes are available on streaming. He doesn't make it anymore. But still a great show to sit down and watch, especially if you've got a seventh-grader in your life.
tre'vell
Mm-hm! Okay!
john
Because it's all about—it's a how-to show about all the things you think you know how to do, but can do better. So it's like, how to make ice cubes. How to tie your shoes. It's all of the physics and science and culture behind all these very simple things that we don't—that we overlook and take for granted. It's a lot of fun.
tre'vell
Mm.
john
But now David Rees and I have co-created an animated show for the FXX network. And I, because this is not a sassy show, and the title of the show isn't—it's not a swear word, but... I just—I can't say the name of the show. [Both laugh.] On my podcast. Check out my Insta. Check out my Twitter. I'll say the name of the show there. [Tre'vell laughs quietly.] Just look—[laughs]. I don't know how to get around this problem! I'll give you a hint. It's a detective show, and if you do a little detective work Googling "John Hodgman," "David Rees," "FXX," "Cake—" C-A-K-E, which is the name of the half-hour short form animated and live action comedy block that we're a part of, then you'll see and watch the show.
tre'vell
Mm.
john
It's a very funny detective show, in which I play a former child sleuth, a la Encyclopedia Brown, who has now grown up to be a sad, lonely, 40-year-old man.
tre'vell
Aw.
john
Who still lives in his own town, where he once solved mysteries for teenagers, and now still does solve mysteries for teenagers and it's humiliating. [Tre'vell laughs quietly.] And David plays my former high school arch enemy and bully, who is the only one from our high school still left in this town. And he is now my unlikely partner, and driver, and friend. In my detective agency. And it is called NAME REDACTED. Look it up. [Both laugh quietly.] It premieres as part of the Cake block of programming on FXX on Thursday night, July the 9th, at ten PM. You can watch live on FXX, and then the episodes will be streaming the next day on FX on Hulu. And it's—we made ten episodes. As I've mentioned before, it includes a lot of great guest stars. Our dear occasional bailiff Jean Grae is in the first episode, along with Zach Galifianakis. We have Kristen Schaal, Obehi Janice, so many great voice actors, Jon Benjamin, Jon Glaser, comedians, and it's just been so much fun. And Ronald Peet, everybody. Tre'vell?
tre'vell
Yes?
john
I ask only one thing of you.
tre'vell
And that is...?
john
This is not an ask. This is a gift. Google "Ronald Peet." P-E-E-T.
tre'vell
Okay.
john
This guy is so great. [Stifles laughter.] He's so funny and charismatic and awesome, and... he's a young actor. And he's really special. So...
tre'vell
"Ronald Peet," looking it up!
john
Yeah. Look—because you cover entertainment! You're on the entertainment beat.
tre'vell
Yes! That's what I do.
john
You're a star-maker.
tre'vell
Well... wouldn't go that far. But I appreciate the confidence. [Stifles laughter.]
john
You're a star-maker. You need to make Ronald Peet a star.
tre'vell
[Stifles laughter.] Well, you're doing that already!
john
I know, but I just need to help get the word out.
tre'vell
Okay. I will support you in this effort.
john
Really talented person. Oh, people who watch—sorry. Sorry, I know this is the longest plugs ever. But listen! People who watched The Tick that I was on, on Amazon? Griffin Newman! The guy who played Arthur! He's in the episode! He's the funniest—I mean, it's not a competition, but he's really, really funny! The show is called NAME REDACTED. Available July 9th, ten PM. Just tune in to FXX. You all got it! No one knows they have it, but they do. Tune in ten PM, check it out. Or on July 10th, go to FX on Hulu and look up Cake, and you can see the first episode there. Thanks, Tre'vell, for hearing me out on that.
tre'vell
[Chuckles.] No problem.
john
Alright, let's get back to the chambers to clear the rest of the docket.
sound effect
[Three gavel bangs.]
tre'vell
Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. This week we are clearing the docket. Here's something from Sarah!
john
Tre'vell, I just wanna warn you and the listeners that I have previewed this case—
tre'vell
Okay.
john
—and it is an astonishing journey.
tre'vell
Oh, I'm excited!
john
There's a lot of spatial questions, about where things are arranged.
tre'vell
Mm.
john
And how this living situation can possibly be.
tre'vell
Mm.
john
And then there is a deep—I think an underlying moral crux to it that we're gonna unpack. This is a content warning for you, Tre'vell. Incredible journey coming up.
tre'vell
Okay, I'm preparing myself. Woosah, woosah, woosah. Okay, I'm ready.
john
I may have oversold it. But we'll see.
tre'vell
[Laughs.] Okay, so Sarah says: "This dispute is between my boyfriend Bart and me, over my handling of a situation with my landlord. Our apartments are connected through the building's laundry room, which is also the entrance to my apartment. We are in a small building with one washer and dryer. The landlord cleans this room two to three times a week for about two to four hours."
john
Wh—[laughs].
tre'vell
That's... extensive. Okay.
john
That's a lot! It's a lot!
tre'vell
But it's clean! Hey.
john
Yeah! But also... their apartments are connected by the laundry room?
tre'vell
...Yes? [Laughs.]
john
Now, you live in an apartment complex on Fountain Avenue in Hollywood, Los Angeles, California, correct?
tre'vell
I do, yes.
john
Do you have a laundry room?
tre'vell
We do have a laundry room. It's—no one's apartment door is inside. [Laughs.]
john
How many apartments lead off of that laundry room? [Stifles laughter.]
tre'vell
Zero! 'Cause that's normal. So this is weird.
john
Look. I don't—nothing is normal. This is unusual. Let's say that.
tre'vell
[Laughs.] Very much so. So, Sarah says that: "As my door is basically cardboard—" [John snorts.] "—when she does this, it's like she's almost in my living room. During quarantine, this has become a regular nightmare for my introverted self. She refused to reduce cleaning time or frequency when I asked. Judge, how sassy should I get? I say very. Bart says no."
john
So, Tre'vell, I asked Sarah for an example of her proposed sassiness.
tre'vell
Mm-hm.
john
Some of the things that she was thinking to do to express her displeasure to the landlord. Here they are. "One—" and this is—I'm quoting her. "I'm thinking that after a half hour or an hour of her being outside my apartment, I should start playing loud audio from my living room. Such as 'It's a Small Word' on a loop, or episodes of Sex and the City. Or YouTube playlists of The Vagina Monologues, or Backstreet Boys, or MSNBC." [Tre'vell laughs quietly.] "Or loud personal phone calls." Essentially, this is sonic warfare she's proposing. [Tre'vell laughs.] "I think my landlord would not want to stick around to hear it." Tre'vell, what do feel about this escalation policy?
tre'vell
Well, you know, so, one thing that's important to note is that Sarah apparently has spoken to the landlord already once before about this.
john
Right. Communication has happened!
tre'vell
Yes! It has happened.
john
Yes.
tre'vell
And the landlord has said, "Okay, girl. Who cares?" [Both laugh.]
john
"I gotta keep this laundry room clean! Two to four hours of cleaning, twice a week!"
tre'vell
Which makes very little sense to me. Because my—the laundry room at my apartment gets cleaned by a service that cleans the common areas in the apartment complex.
john
Yeah.
tre'vell
Twice a week. I have never seen it take even an hour for them to clean our laundry room.
john
Yeah! Yeah.
tre'vell
And we have two washers, and two dryers!
john
Right!
tre'vell
So I'm confused.
john
Maybe this is a very large laundry room? But even so, you know, Sarah has said that her door is cardboard. I think that's hyperbole.
tre'vell
[Laughs.] I hope so.
john
What I'm picturing is that this is, you know—she and her boyfriend are living in the basement apartments of this building, 'cause that's usually where a laundry room is.
tre'vell
Yes.
john
This is what their budget can afford them. I've lived in a share of basements myself. The best deal they could get is these apartments off the laundry room. And therefore I think that it's reasonable, I—to imagine that the laundry room itself has not... got a lot of beautiful wood paneling that requires special dusting. [Both laugh quietly.] Applications of lemon Pledge. Probably doesn't have hardwood floors that need to be mopped, and have special treatments. Probably doesn't have shag carpeting on the walls or the ceiling. It's probably a pretty rudimentary space!
tre'vell
Yes.
john
So I don't know what the landlord is doing down there for two to four hours twice a week. Maybe she's doing what we're all doing, which is like, hiding from the world. [Tre'vell laughs.] You know what I mean? Maybe she's listening to podcasts.
tre'vell
Maybe! Maybe—maybe she's listening to the Judge John Hodgman podcast!
john
While I appreciate that particularly during these times of economic crisis, landlords are not always the good guys, and they do not feel like they are to a lot of people who are being asked to pay full rent.
tre'vell
Mm-hm.
john
Especially from real estate companies with large holdings, who can absorb a hit from time to time.
tre'vell
Yes.
john
But, you know, ultimately, it's like this—why should I rule against "Her house, her rules" in this case? You know?
tre'vell
You know, but the ques—so—but he—they—
john
She's taking care of that laundry room so much!
tre'vell
I just—my thoughts is, I don't know if these even proposed forms of sassiness would be effective.
john
Right.
tre'vell
That's my thought.
john
Right!
tre'vell
Because the idea is that, you know, Sarah wants to just play things very loudly, that will hopefully drive the landlord to shorten, you know, the cleaning time.
john
Yeah.
tre'vell
But I'm not sure that that's going to be as effective as Sarah thinks it's going to be.
john
Well, reason one being that she's punishing herself, too.
tre'vell
Exactly.
john
Reason two being, it's escalation. And escalation, as we have seen in the streets of the United States, tends to not resolve conflict.
tre'vell
Yes.
john
But lead to worse and worse outcomes.
tre'vell
Very much so. I wonder if as a possible solution, you know—Sarah says that she spoke to the landlord. Perhaps Bart, the boyfriend, should try speaking to the landlord.
john
Oh!
tre'vell
Maybe that is a—another form of communication that can take place before this escalation. Maybe for whatever reason, Sarah just, you know, couldn't get through to the landlord, and Bart might be able to.
john
Well, we know one thing for sure. Because Sarah professes it herself. She's sassy!
tre'vell
[Laughs.] Yes.
john
She's got sassiness on reserve. She's got sassiness ready to deploy. She's got sassy schemes ready to go.
tre'vell
Mm.
john
And I wonder if she—look. I don't know what the nature of their communication was.
tre'vell
Yeah.
john
But if she sassed the landlord...
tre'vell
Yeah!
john
You know what I mean? When she was talking to the landlord. If she approached in an entitled, sassy way, as opposed to a, "Hey, I'm a human being, too" kind of way...
tre'vell
Mm-hm! Mm-hm!
john
Maybe that was its own sort of form of escalation. You know what I mean?
tre'vell
Yeah. That's a good point.
john
And there may be cultural and language barriers in play here.
tre'vell
Mm-hm! Mm-hm!
john
We don't know, and I don't necessarily presume, but... you know, there might be other reasons that the initial communication was rejected.
tre'vell
Yeah.
john
So—
tre'vell
So are we suggesting that she just... tries again?
john
I would suggest she examine—I mean, I'm making no presumptions over her initial communication.
tre'vell
Mm-hm.
john
I'm inviting her to review it. And maybe talk about it with Bart, and some of her other friends. And see if, like—see if they have some feedback for her.
tre'vell
Yeah.
john
And when you are reviewing your own behavior and, you know, stress-testing it with your friends, the important thing is to not be defensive. Like, if they say, "Yeah, that was wrong," or "You're out of line," don't be like, "Uh-uh-uh-uh-uh!" [Tre'vell laughs.] And then just start playing "It's a Small World" on a loop loud in their face. [Both laugh.] That's my reaction to any criticism. "Nope, not hearing it! [Singing loudly] IIIT'S A SMALL WORLD AAAFTER ALL!" [Tre'vell laughs.] [Speaking] Just hold up my phone in their face. By the way, Disney, please don't sue this podcast out of existence. [Both laugh.] You already took away Ragnarok from me. Please don't take my podcast away. [Tre'vell laughs.] Yeah, so Sarah, I would talk to some people and give 'em—and really think about how you communicated with your landlord. And see if there might be another way to re-approach.
tre'vell
Mm-hm.
john
And if the landlord is still unresponsive... then I think you have to buy some earplugs, and deal with this phase in your life. This phase in your life where you live in a basement, and next to a laundry room. [Exhales thoughtfully], boy. Must be really convenient to do the laundry, though, right?
tre'vell
Very much so. I—well... Yeah, I guess! Yeah! You don't have to walk down the street to go to the laundromat. You don't even have to put on pants, really! You know?
john
Yeah.
tre'vell
Just... take a step, a—a big step outside of your door and drop the things in the washing machine and dryer? That? Yeah! Very convenient.
john
Yeah! She could probably just throw the laundry out of the door. [Tre'vell laughs.] Into the washer. If it's a top loader.
tre'vell
Yes?
john
And I bet—you know what? I bet if she wanted to make a little game of it, she could probably get really good at tossing the quarters into the slots. [Tre'vell laughs.] From her—from her door. You know? Anyway—[laughs]. You live—Sassy Sarah. You—you know, this is a phase in your life. You will not always live in this apartment. And someday you will tell the story about how you could throw quarters in a slot and do your laundry, and they—and it was the cleanest laundry room of all time, and no one will believe you, and they'll be like, "Two apartments went into one laundry room?! That was the entryway to the—" People will not know! You'll have a fun time telling the story.
tre'vell
At minimum.
john
But if you start blasting music and escalating, it's—it's just gonna make it worse. It's never a good—escalation is not—isn't—never works out. That's my feeling.
tre'vell
And there it is.
john
Tre'vell, do you like to do laundry, or do you not like to do laundry?
tre'vell
Who likes to do laundry?? I will say I did once go to a place that cleans your close for you, does your laundry for you.
john
Yeah. Yeah! Yeah.
tre'vell
You just drop it off, and you pick it back up, and it's folded already.
john
Hoo!
tre'vell
It was entirely too expensive, but—!
john
Yeah.
tre'vell
I enjoyed that.
john
Yeah, very lush.
tre'vell
I—[chuckles]—I have—I've only—literally only done it once. But I have it—I did enjoy, that one time, having someone else do my laundry for me.
john
Hey, Jennifer Marmor.
jennifer
Yeah?
john
Did that—does that Tickle Me Elmo bust our bank?
jennifer
Oh, no. It's—we're good to go. [Tre'vell laughs quietly.]
john
Do we have some—some more money to get Tre'vell's laundry—one week of pound laundry for Tre'vell? [Tre'vell laughs.]
jennifer
Yeah!
john
So they don't have to do their own laundry?
jennifer
Absolutely. [Tre'vell laughs.]
john
I mean, just as a token.
jennifer
For sure.
john
I mean, just as a small gesture of our appreciation for your being here, Tre'vell, 'cause you're amazing.
jennifer
Mm-hm.
tre'vell
I so appreciate it.
john
Yeah. [Tre'vell laughs.] Well, that—figure out what it costs, Tre'vell, and we'll Venmo it to you.
tre'vell
I'll let you know.
john
We're gonna HodgMoney it to you. That's one I just made up. [Both laugh.] Oh, we have a letter!
tre'vell
Yes!
john
Alright.
tre'vell
We have something here from a listener named Jennifer, who wrote in about a case regarding pies, from the episode that was recorded on stage in Brooklyn?
john
Alright. So yeah. So there was a time when we could do live shows, Tre'vell.
tre'vell
Mm.
john
FANTI ever do a live show? Live podcast?
tre'vell
Not yet! You know, we started, like, a couple—like a month before quarantine. [Stifles laughter.]
john
Right. Right. I hope that you get a chance to do live podcasts.
tre'vell
Yes.
john
In the future. I really hope you do. I mean, obviously 'cause that will indicate—'cause you would never do it irresponsibly, and it would indicate that we can all get back together in a room together, which is something that I miss a lot.
tre'vell
Yes.
john
And obviously 'cause you and Jarrett would be great on stage.
tre'vell
Oh, why, thank you.
john
And also it's a chance to sell that merch! Lurch to the merch!
tre'vell
The lurch to the merch!
john
So we do live podca—or we used to do live podcasts. And they're a lot of fun, and we did one in January here in Brooklyn where I live. And this was a live dispute on stage. It was about how many pies were necessary for one Thanksgiving dinner. The plaintiff, Karen—her husband Jamie is a pie freak. Loves to make pies!
tre'vell
Mm.
john
I think he made something like 15 pies for one dinner.
tre'vell
Wow.
john
And I told him to cut it back. 'Cause the time that he was spending on those pies—particularly for a big holiday dinner—that's time that he could be helping out in other way—helping other people in other ways, rather than focusing on his project. That 14, 15 pies were too many.
tre'vell
Mm.
john
So this person Jennifer wrote in, having listened to that live case. And she writes: "My daughter Hannah is an avid baker. When she heard the pie case, she declared that she would not abide by your judgment!" My judgment, Tre'vell! [Tre'vell laughs.] Hannah's a scofflaw!
tre'vell
Oh no!
john
"Last fall, Hannah baked at least eleven pies, one cake, and a batch of tartlets for the Thanksgiving." Eleven pies, one cake, and a batch of tartlets. Guess how many guests they were having?
tre'vell
Uh, that's a lot. So I'm gonna say like 30.
john
[Stifling laughter] Fourteen.
tre'vell
[Stifling laughter] Oh!
john
Fourteen! That is—look. I refuse to do math. But that feels like almost a pie per person.
tre'vell
Almost, yes! That's a lot of pie.
john
Jennifer goes on to say: "It could have been worse. I refused to purchase the 125 eggs and 56 sticks of butter that she requested."
tre'vell
Wow.
john
"Two of her friends staged an intervention, and viciously cut down her baking plan before she came home for the holiday. Even though it will apparently have no effect in our kitchen, your ruling is appreciated by the families of fanatical bakers everywhere." I gotta say, Tre'vell, this is a time when unjust laws need to be pushed and challenged.
tre'vell
[Laughs quietly.] Yes. Very much so.
john
But my ruling— [Both laugh quietly.] —that 15 pies for one normal-sized holiday dinner is too much? That shall never be challenged.
tre'vell
'Cause it is very just!
john
Yeah! That's too many pies and cake and tartlets for 14 people! You know this! [Tre'vell laughs quietly.] Again, that—the time that you're spending on your project, particularly since baking—do you bake at all, Tre'vell?
tre'vell
I love baking, yes!
john
I do not bake, but I live with a baker.
tre'vell
Mm. So you understand.
john
Oh, well, the thing is, I love it. Because you know what I love?
tre'vell
What?
john
I mean, I don't eat cake. I don't eat sweets.
tre'vell
Oh!
john
It's just not part of my life. So you would think baking would have no appeal to me, particularly if someone else is doing it.
tre'vell
Mm-hm.
john
But the thing is, I just love... surfaces coated in flour. Love it! [Tre'vell laughs.] Looove it! [Laughs.] I love cleaning the kitchen in the morning.
tre'vell
Mm. Mm-hm.
john
After making everyone breakfast.
tre'vell
Yes.
john
And then start thinking about what I'm gonna make for dinner. In my nice clean kitchen that I cleaned after cooking.
tre'vell
Mm-hm.
john
And then turn away for two seconds, and all of the sudden find... a grown woman who lives in our house... [Tre'vell laughs.] ...is suddenly in the midst of uhhh—I don't know! I don't even know what—what's a kind of cake?
tre'vell
Uh, like a poundcake.
john
A poundcake!
tre'vell
Mm-hm. [Both laugh.]
john
That one's okay, though. I like—I like poundcake, 'cause it's basically all butter.
tre'vell
Oh, so you like butter.
john
Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, look, when— [Tre'vell laughs.] When Jennifer said she refu—like, I don't want 11 pies and 1 cake, etc., etc., but when she said that it was gonna take 125 eggs and 56 sticks of butter, the first thing I did was picture my refrigerator full of 125 eggs and 56 sticks of butter. And I got really happy! Talk about a kink! [Tre'vell laughs.] Yes! Yes! Pack my fridge with eggs and butter! That sounds like a saying. "Well, pack my fridge with eggs and butter! Could not be happier to see you!" [Both laugh.]
tre'vell
That's actually really amazing.
john
Well, the point was, I don't like counters covered in flour.
tre'vell
Mm-hm.
john
It really—ugh! Especially when I just got it clean! Baking is messy. It's involved. Hannah, when you go home for Thanksgiving, you may notice there are other people in the kitchen, making other foods! [Tre'vell laughs.] As much as I love the eggs and butter in your fridge, cut it in half. And use that extra time to help out your mom, Jennifer! She sent in some photos of a dessert spread from Thanksgiving.
tre'vell
It is a beautiful spread, I'm not gonna lie.
john
Yeah, we're gonna put this photo up on the Judge John Hodgman Instagram page, and also our show page at MaximumFun.org. So this is Hannah's spread. And it looks like—one, two, three... Look. It's beautiful. There's an incredible pumpkin cake in the shape of a pumpkin.
tre'vell
Yeah! That's actually really amazing. So I guess we have to give Hannah some credit for the innovativeness and the ingenuity, and the creativity.
john
Yeah! She's great! And there are the tartlets, up there on the—on top of the cooler. You see them on that long—?
tre'vell
Oh, yes! I do!
john
Yeah! Great tartlets. And then the—oh! There's a whole other field of pies behind it!
tre'vell
Oh, wait! We didn't even see the other pies! Yes! There's— [John laughs.] Y'all, there is like... uh, I guess 11 pies in this picture! [Laughs.]
john
I guess! [Laughs.] I mean, pack my fridge with eggs and butter, this is too much! [Tre'vell laughs.] Beautiful!
tre'vell
And they each look like a different pie, too. Like a different flavor, different center—that's just too much.
john
It's a great-looking spread. Cut it in half. Alright. I think the docket is clear! Is that correct, Tre'vell?
tre'vell
It is very much so clear, yes.
john
Alright. That is it for another episode of Judge John Hodgman. Our producer is Jennifer Marmor. Thank you, Tre'vell, for joining us again on the show. Tre'vell, you're on Twitter at @TrevellAnderson. That's T-R-E-V-E-L-L... Anderson. Spelled in the—the common way.
tre'vell
Yes.
john
All one word. No underscore, by the way, and good for you. [Tre'vell laughs.] You know what I mean? No offense to David Rees, but that "first name, underscore, last name" looks like garbage. Avoid that. [Tre'vell laughs, John stifles laughter.] If you haven't listened to their podcast FANTI yet, get on it! For all the reasons! It's every Thursday on Maximum Fun, or wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm on Twitter, of course, at @hodgman. And I'm on Instagram personally at @johnhodgman. But make sure to hashtag your Tweets, and your Instas, and all your socials #JJHo. And follow the show on Instagram at @judgejohnhodgman. And check out the Maximum Fun subreddit to discuss this episode at MaximumFun.Reddit.com! Finally, if that's not enough interaction for you, submit your cases. We need cases all the time! Submit them to MaximumFun.org/jjho. If you like filling out forms, that's where you go. If you like composing an email, just send one to me at hodgman@maximumfun.org.
john
That's all for now! We will not see you next time—how does this keep happening? This is a podcast! I can't see you, listener! [John and Tre'vell laugh.] But I will enjoy talking to you next time, on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thanks, Tre'vell!
tre'vell
Thank you!
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