TRANSCRIPT Ep. 462: Live From Boston, MA

Transcript

jesse thorn
									
[Sound of gavel banging.] Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast! I’m Bailiff Jesse Thorn.
john hodgman
									
And I’m your Judge John Hodgman! This week’s episode was recorded in my home Commonwealth of Massachusetts at the Wilbur Theatre in Boston!
jesse
									
We have special musical guest Josh Kantor! The organist at Fenway Park. Among many other projects, he plays also with the Baseball Project and many other bands. Uh, but Josh is a kind man. A virtuosic musician. And he stopped by to play organ both before and during our Judge John Hodgman show.
john
									
So let’s—maybe we can hear even an organ riff— [Old-timey, baseball-y organ music.] —to take us back into old-timey times! When we were all allowed to gather together in the Wilbur Theatre in Boston, Commonwealth of Massachusetts. [Audience applauds wildly.]
jesse
									
People of Massachusetts! You’ve come to us desperate for justice! And we’re here to deliver it to you—at the Wilbur Theatre in Boston! [Audience continues applauding.] Let’s bring out our first set of litigants—please welcome to the stage Kristen and Jess! [Audience applauds.] Tonight’s case—Knit, or Get Off the Pod! Kristen files suit against her friend and podcast cohost Jess! They started a podcast called WWKD—Wine, Whine, and Knit Day—in which they knit and talk about their lives. Since then, Jess has started crocheting instead of knitting! [Mixed laughter and scandalized noises.] Kristen feels this is dishonest and would like Jess to exclusively work on knitting projects while they record the podcast. Who’s right? Who’s wrong? Only one can decide! Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers his obscure cultural reference. [Audience applauds, cheers.]
john
									
Why… do we care about podcasting? It is rich and beautiful. It helps us to better understand Euclidean geometry. [Light audience laughter.] It also helps to understand shapes and nature! And helps us to think about the shape… of our universe. The problem that has puzzled people for thousands of years. And still… is an open question. Bailiff Jesse Thorn, please swear the litigants in.
jesse
									
Kristen and Jess, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever?
kristen
									
Yes.
jess
									
Yes.
jesse
									
Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman’s ruling, despite the fact that he started knitting a sweater and he kept [escalating in both pitch and volume] knitting—and knitting—and knitting—and knitting?! [Light audience laughter.]
kristen
									
[Through laughter] Yes.
jess
									
Sure!
jesse
									
Judge Hodgman, you [though laughter] may proceed.
john
									
That was a good cultural reference.
jesse
									
[Through laughter] Thank you.
john
									
It was Pee-wee Herman, right?
jesse
									
Yeah.
john
									
Oh, phew! [Audience laughs.] Ohhh! I wouldn’t—I wouldn’t wanted to be hoist on my own knitted petard! So. [Audience laughs.] I don’t know what a petard is. Can you knit one? Who cares. Moving on. [Audience laughs.] Uh, Kristen and Jess, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors. Can either of you name the popular culture, eh, popular culture is a stretch—the piece of culture? Mm, not even culture! The piece of… [Audience laughs.] —words that I said? [Laughs.] [Audience laughs.] Who spoke those words? I’ll give you a hint—the term “podcasting” in that phrase was a substitute for another term. It was not actually a quote about podcasting, but about something else. Uh, let’s see. Uh, Kristen, why don’t you guess first?
kristen
									
Um… I am going to guess the… uh… renowned anthropologist Margaret Mead.
john
									
Margaret Mead, the renowned anthropologist! Well, I can’t find my pen, but I’ll enter it into my mental guess book. Interesting. A woman scientist! Interesting. Hm. [Audience laughs.] Hm. Hm. Hm. [Audience laughs.] Jess! You’ve heard Margaret Mead. Is that your guess or would you like to make another guess?
jess
									
I would like to make another guess.
john
									
Go for it!
jess
									
Uh—I’m—
john
									
Which—are you—wait a minute. Are you the crocheter?
jess
									
I am.
john
									
Yeah. Okay. Interesting. Hm. [Audience laughs.] Hm. Hm.
jess
									
Uh, I’m going to guess the Vogue Knitting Book?
john
									
[Through laughter] The Vogue Knitting Book?
jess
									
It is the knitter’s handbook.
john
									
The knitter’s handbook—the Vogue Knitting Book. Written by a woman who is a scientist?
jesse
									
Written by Anna Wintour. [Multiple people laugh.]
jess
									
Sure. Yes. [Laughs.]
john
									
Uh, and Jesse, I presume you—as always—guess Pee-wee Herman?
jesse
									
Yeah.
john
									
Alright! All guesses are wrong! No. That quote was from the TedxRiga Talk given by Daina Taimina, who is a—I believe Latvian—mathematician. The phrase that was omitted and replaced with ‘podcasting’ was ‘hyperbolic plane.’ [Audience laughs.]
jesse
									
[Through laughter] You should’ve just had the whole audience say that together with you, John.
john
									
[Through laughter] Sure. I know. You guys all got it! I know. [Audience laughs.]
jesse
									
They’re all just sitting up there like [as though through gritted teeth] “Hyperbolic plane!”
john
									
In 1997—that talk was given in 2012. In 1997, though, Daina Taimina discovered a way to represent hyperbolic geometry—physical space. And do you know how she did it?
jess
									
Knitting.
john
									
No!!! [Audience laughs.] Crocheting!!!
jess
									
Ahh! [Audience laughs.]
john
									
That was a classic touché-crochet! [Audience laughs.] Crochet—she uses crochet. And do you know what the hyperbolic plane is?
jess
									
No.
john
									
Jesse, do you know what the hyperbolic plane is?
jesse
									
Yeah, but I’d rather not say.
john
									
Right. [Audience laughs.] You must know. It’s simply the greatest plane in the world. Maybe even the universe! The absolute best—sine qua non—the best. The hyperbolic plane. I don’t know what it is, either. [Audience laughs.] I was making a joke on hyperbole. You see what I mean?
jesse
									
Mm.
john
									
Uh, no. It’s actually—it’s a—it’s, uh, it’s in contrast to Euclidean space and spherical space. Instead of being a flat plane, on which points are mapped—or a spherical plane on which points are mapped—it is a plane of constant negative curve. And that is as far as I got in the Wikipedia before we had to start the show. [Audience laughs.] But it is true that crochet… imitates—or can represent in three dimensions—uh, what almost nothing else can. Which is this—the hyperbolic geometry. Hyperbolic plane. So it’s very sophisticated! I would hope that someone who is into crochet would know all of this! [Audience laughs.]
jess
									
Ooooh.
john
									
But unfortunately, you don’t. [Jess laughs.] So now we have to hear this case. So. Kristen! You bring this case against Jess.
kristen
									
Yes.
john
									
The person who is really into crochet but knows nothing about the hyperbolic plane.
kristen
									
She’s been doing it less than a year.
john
									
Oh my goodness—well no wonder she doesn’t know anything about it. [Audience laughs.] Uh, and so—how is it that you two come to know each other and knit so very much, indeed?
kristen
									
Uh, I think we met through my mom, actually.
john
									
Mm-hm.
kristen
									
Um, and… she and my mom were both in grad school at the same time?
john
									
In what-what?
kristen
									
Grad school?
john
									
Oh, grad—I thought you said in “rascal.”
kristen
									
[Laughs.] Grad… school.
john
									
Right.
kristen
									
And… I would come home on winter breaks and she’d be hanging out basically with her classmates and I thought Jess was cool. Uh, and then I learned to knit and during Jess’s, uh, dissertation phase that’s what she did to relax. And so that’s what I would do with her.
john
									
What did you study in grad school? What I like to call rascal.
kristen
									
[Laughs.] Um, I studied theology. I was, uh, at Boston University School of Theology.
john
									
Oh, okay!
kristen
									
Got my Master of Divinity.
john
									
Oh, wow! Excellent! [Lone cheer from the audience.] And, uh— [A few more cheers.] Uh, Jess?
jess
									
Yes. I was also at Boston University. Getting my PhD in Theological Ethics.
john
									
Oh, okay. Great. And you didn’t—
jesse
									
Wait. Kristen, were you going to graduate school with your mom?
kristen
									
[Laughs.] Yup! [Laughs.] [Audience laughs.]
jesse
									
Oh, alright! I like this! [Laughs.]
kristen
									
Yup! [Laughs.]
john
									
Did—did you guys walk to school every morning holding hands? [Audience laughs.]
kristen
									
No, because we did not live together.
john
									
I see. What was your mom studying?
kristen
									
Also [though laughter] theology?
john
									
I would’ve liked it if you had said “Satanology.” [Laughs.]
crosstalk
									
John: We learned to get along. Kristen: I can’t lie! I’m under oath!
john
									
Mm-hm. Sure. Uh, so alright. Fantastic. You’re divinity students. You met in grad school. You discovered you have a shared interest in knitting. You start a podcast, which—obviously—this entire dispute is ginned up in order to buzz-market your podcast on my podcast— [Audience laughs.] What is the name of your knitting podcast?
kristen
									
WWKD Podcast?
john
									
Wine—W-I-N-E—Whine—W-H-I-N-E—at knitting? What?
kristen
									
And knitting.
john
									
And Knitting. Right? Okay. Very good. And so you—the two of you sit around and you knit and you talk about knitting? Or you talk about… anything under the sun?
kristen
									
Um, well both! Uh, so we have some topic we talk about for the main part of the show and then at the end we talk about what we’re crafting or we both tend to do like philanthropic crafting? And so we’ll highlight causes.
john
									
Does the crafting involve other things besides knitting?
kristen
									
It… does.
john
									
Like, what sort of things? Scrapbooking? [Audience laughs.]
kristen
									
I guess… yes.
jesse
									
Making those airplanes out of Coke cans? [Audience laughs.]
kristen
									
Yes. We have had guests on our show who do all kinds of crafting!
john
									
So it would seem that it’s a fairly holistic crafting show. Not simply a knitting show.
kristen
									
I didn’t say it was explicitly a knitting show, but “knit” is in the title.
john
									
And yet… you have beef with your friend—
kristen
									
I do!
john
									
Because she has chosen to do something that is basically knitting but not quite. [Audience laughs.]
kristen
									
It’s not the same thing! [Laughs.]
john
									
Oh, it’s not the same! Jess?
jess
									
Yes.
john
									
What is crochet?
jess
									
Crochet uses a hook, uh, only one hook instead of two knitting needles, which you use for knitting.
john
									
Mm-hm. I see.
jess
									
Uh, you can make a lot more 3D things with crochet—
crosstalk
									
Jess: —very easily? John: Mm-hm. Sure. While you’re working in the hyperbolic plane, of course you can.
jess
									
Exactly! [Audience laughs.] Exactly! That’s why it’s so good for the hyperbolic plane!
john
									
That’s right. I mean, basically knitting is just—Euclidean. Right? Just flat stuff.
kristen
									
Not true!
john
									
Oh-ho! [Audience laughs.] I’ll allow it. [Audience laughs.] Hold that thought while we allow, uh, Jess to finish her thought.
jess
									
Uh, so—use yarn just the way—the same way you would use—
john
									
Yeah. You use yarn. That’s interesting. There’s a very big commonality— [Jess laughs.]
crosstalk
									
Jess: Commonality with—with—yes. Knitting and crochet. John: —between the two crafts. Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Right.
jess
									
Uh, but yeah! It’s—it’s… I think it is easier. It’s more transportable than knitting is. Uh, you can—
john
									
What?
jess
									
It is! [Laughs.]
john
									
Look. I used to have a wife. [Audience laughs.]
crosstalk
									
John: We’re still married. Jesse: Before he agreed to come out on this tour. [Audience laughs.]
john
									
We’re still married and she’s still alive… [Audience laughs.] —but she started knitting several years ago and I have not seen her since. [Audience laughs.] But I’ve observed this from afar.
jess
									
Uh-huh.
john
									
And I have discovered that it’s pretty portable! Indeed… it can be taken anywhere! [Audience laughs.] You never have to leave it behind! [Audience laughs.]
jess
									
[Laughs.] Yes. I—
john
									
You never have to engage with other human beings. [Audience laughs.] So long as you have your knitting.
jesse
									
I think it’s fair to say that both knitting and crocheting… are activities designed specifically to be done while rewatching Buffy the Vampire Slayer! [All laughs.]
jess
									
Yes! Exactly!
john
									
How is knit—how is crochet more portable than knitting?
jess
									
Because you don’t lose stitches the same way that you do with knitting. So if you’re using two knitting needles, your stitches can slide off?
john
									
Right.
jess
									
Whereas with crochet, it’s very easy to see where you—
john
									
Only—only—only if you’re careless and lazy, though. [Audience laughs.] Let the record show that Kristen’s nodding. [Both Jess and Kristen laugh.] I didn’t mean to imply that you were in any way careless or lazy. I apologize. But why are you messing up your knitting all the time that you have to take crochet?
jess
									
I—well, that’s why I switched to crochet!
john
									
Is it really?
jess
									
No.
john
									
Oh, okay. [Jess laughs.] Uh, how did you get started and why do you like it better and why will you never go back to knitting no matter what your friend wants?
jess
									
[Laughs.] Number one, I never said I would never go back to knitting. [Laughs.]
john
									
Okay. Alright.
jess
									
Uh, I—my mom crocheted when I was growing up. She never learned how to knit, but um… tried to teach me how to crochet a couple years ago and I never picked it up?
john
									
Mm-hm.
jess
									
And then—
jesse
									
This was back when the two of you [though laughter] were in graduate school together. [Audience laughs.]
jess
									
This is back when we were both back in graduate school, yeah. I only finished graduate school last year. Anyway. [Laughs.]
john
									
Congratulations!
jess
									
Yes. [Laughs.] Um, but I, uh, just wanted to try it! Because it looked like… I could do more things with it! So I taught myself how to do it!
john
									
So it is not merely an argument which I expected. Which is like, I wanted to try something different and I don’t understand why Kristen should be upset. It—you’re truly saying, this is better than knitting. Knitting is the worst!
jess
									
I— [Laughs.] No! That is not what I’m saying.
john
									
Okay.
jess
									
I’m—knitting is great! And I love knitting—
crosstalk
									
Jess: —and I love knit things and I love people who knit. John: Ew. That’s very faint praise.
jess
									
But I—right now, I’m in a crocheting phase. [Laughs.]
john
									
Okay. Well, so…
jesse
									
Who knows what she’ll be doing when she moves on to rewatching Angel! [Audience laughs.]
john
									
As long as you never move into needlepoint, I have no problem with you.
kristen
									
Oooh.
john
									
That’s painting by numbers and I do not care for it. [Audience laughs.] There is a high level—there is a high level of needlepoint, which is freehand needlepoint. And embroidery, like, uh, Kendall Cooper does. Check out my Instagram. [Audience laughs.] See an embroidered picture of my dumb cat! [Audience laughs.] Uh, Kristen—
kristen
									
Yes.
john
									
Uh, what’s your—what’s your problem with you friend exploring a new kind of, uh, yarn-based handcraft?
kristen
									
[Laughs.] Well… I… we started this podcast in particular—
john
									
Yeah, I know about your podcast. Everybody— [Audience laughs.] —check out the podcast! Wine, Whine, and Knit!
kristen
									
Not where I was going. But!
john
									
Mm-hm.
kristen
									
Um, basically—we used to share—I realized we were still both, um… yarn-crafting together. Uh, but… she… I feel like she’s kind of left me behind! ‘Cause she has said that she thinks crochet is easier and I think you implied that you preferred it to knitting and thus, like… this is what I’m doing from now on. And I feel a little left behind. I feel like we started something together—
john
									
Right.
kristen
									
Um, and then I think—I kid you not—in like Episode 2 she was like, I wanna crochet! And in Episode 3 she was crocheting!
john
									
Oh!
kristen
									
And has not knit since then.
crosstalk
									
Kristen: We’re on like episode 47. John: A classic—
john
									
Right! A classic podcast cohost bait-and-switch! [Audience laughs.] Like Jesse [though laughter] Thorn, when you and I started this podcast, it was supposed to be just talking about, uh, Star Wars! [Laughs.] [Audience laughs.]
jesse
									
Yeah! [Laughs.]
john
									
And then you made me become an internet judge! [Laughs.]
jesse
									
Yup.
john
									
Said it would be a better format and you’re right.
jesse
									
Yeah.
john
									
Absolutely. And all I wanted to do was talk about, uh, chain restaurants and fast food! We coulda been millionaires! [Jesse laughs loudly.] Uh, you—what kind of things do you make with crochet? You brought some evidence, correct?
kristen
									
I did! Yes!
john
									
Let’s take a look at the evidence.
jess
									
These are—these are Kristen’s.
kristen
									
These are mine.
john
									
Oh, so this is your evidence.
kristen
									
This is—this is knitting items that I have made. So, um, on the right-hand side is an example of a blanket I made for my cousin who is—
john
									
Sure.
kristen
									
Okay.
john
									
No, no, no, no, no. [Audience laughs.] I was just acknowledging.
kristen
									
Oh. That seemed—
john
									
Thank you for describing it, by the way. ‘Cause usually that falls to me and I’m terrible at it. So I appreciate that. For those of you listening along at home, Kristen will now describe what everyone else in the world is seeing. [Audience laughs.]
kristen
									
Um, it’s a rainbow—it’s a large striped, rainbow color.
john
									
It’s not easy, is it? It’s not easy.
kristen
									
No, it’s not! [Audience laughs.]
crosstalk
									
Kristen: Now I’m on the spot! [Laughs.] John: Now that I put you on the spot! [Audience laughs.]
john
									
It’s some blankets and beautiful blankets that you knitted?
kristen
									
Um, that I knitted for my cousin who was doing a Noah’s Ark-themed nursery.
john
									
Oh, very nice! And may I point out—they’re flat!
kristen
									
They are.
john
									
They’re purely Euclidean!
kristen
									
The stuff in the other picture are not flat!
john
									
Yeah! That’s ‘cause they’re balls of yarn!
kristen
									
No, they’re not!
john
									
Well, hope—oh, excuse me. I—
kristen
									
No, they’re not!
crosstalk
									
Kristen: And I have one here to show you! John: I misunderstood. All I saw—
john
									
All I saw were paper bags full of yarn. [Audience laughs.] And I was having a traumatic response. [Laughs.] [Audience laughs.]
kristen
									
I did not consult with your wife before coming. I promise. Um—
john
									
So those are not balls of yarn. That—those—you took balls of yarn, unthreaded them, and knitted them back into balls of yarn? [Audience laughs.]
kristen
									
Sort of! Yeah!
john
									
What are they, exactly?
kristen
									
So this is one of my main, um, crafting for a cause projects?
john
									
Oh.
kristen
									
They are called Knitted Knockers.
john
									
Ohhh! [Light cheering, whooping, clapping from audience.]
kristen
									
I have one here. [Laughs.]
john
									
Uh, may I—
kristen
									
Yes.
crosstalk
									
John: —handle it? Jesse: Palpate it?
kristen
									
[Laughs.] You may. [Audience laughs.]
john
									
Uh, this looks like… so it’s a—it’s like a little pillow. It’s a knit pillow that is stuffed with—
kristen
									
Like, Poly-fil? Like you would stuff a stuffed animal.
john
									
Well I thought from—because you were a master of theology it might be the hair of a saint or something like that? [Audience laughs.]
kristen
									
Not that kind of theology.
john
									
No. Okay. So this is a Knitted Knocker.
kristen
									
Yes.
john
									
Is it… ohhhh! I think I know what it is! [Multiple people laugh.]
kristen
									
It’s a prosthetic breast for women that have had mastectomies.
john
									
That’s fantastic!
kristen
									
It fits inside a regular bra and I’m part of an organization that gives ‘em out for free to women who can’t otherwise afford them. [Audience applauds.]
john
									
That’s amazing! I take back everything I said about knitting being flat, pointless, and uncharitable. [Audience laughs.] And selfish.
kristen
									
Thank you! I appreciate that. [Laughs.]
john
									
Uh, so. Jess.
jess
									
Yes.
john
									
What incredible charitable things have you created— [Audience laughs.] —with your crochet skills?
jess
									
I have also made Knitted Knockers.
john
									
No, no. I understand. [Jess laughs.] But they’re knitted. Do you see what I’m saying?
crosstalk
									
Jess: They’re—you can make—there is a— John: It seems to me that the whole point of this case is which is better—knitting or crocheting?
john
									
I’ve decided. [Laughs.] [Audience laughs.]
jess
									
There is a crochet pattern for Knitted Knockers.
john
									
Oh, okay!
jess
									
Yeah. So I—I made—I actually recruited people to make Knitted Knockers— [Laughs.] [Audience laughs.] That were given to, uh, Boston Medical Center.
john
									
Okay. I— [Jess laughs. Audience applauds.] Look, I appreciate that you’ve also—you’ve also done good work in your life. But—
jess
									
Yes. [Laughs.]
john
									
You really are kind of drafting off of… [Audience laughs.] Kristen’s incredible revelation right now. Let’s go to the next piece of evidence. What do we—what do we have here?
jess
									
Uh, so this was my first crocheting project?
john
									
Sure.
jess
									
Because I’m an overachiever? Um, I made a—
john
									
What—what makes this an overachievement in the world of crochet? [Audience laughs.] No, I—that’s a sincere question! It’s—it looks like—it looks like a big blanket but of course… because it is crochet, it is full of huge holes. [Audience laughs.] And… would in no way retain heat in any way. [Laughs.]
jess
									
It is—
john
									
It also is, by the way, very flat. Which really… [Audience laughs.] —really rejects the whole promise of crochet as representing 3D structures and the hyperbolic geometry that everyone is talking about at TEDxRiga. But it’s still a beautiful piece of work. So you created this—but it’s an overachievement ‘cause it’s so big—it’s—a lot of it, right?
jess
									
Yes. So it… it’s over 140 granny squares?
john
									
Oh. I see.
jess
									
That I then had to—
john
									
And that’s a regular unit of measurement in crochet? [Audience laughs.]
crosstalk
									
Jess: Granny squares? Yes. Yeah, it is! [Laughs.] Um— John: Granny squares? Alright. Yeah. [Audience laughs.]
john
									
Rather gendered, I would say. But go on.
jess
									
[Laughs.] Uh, that I then had to stitch together into one, uh, one piece.
john
									
And, uh, I’m—I may note as well that you are sitting here, uh, looks like you’re sitting at your podcast station for your podcast Wine, Whine, and Knit. [Jess laughs.] And one thing I notice you’re not doing is podcasting. You’re just showing off your crochet!
jess
									
Uh—
john
									
It’s an audible medium.
jess
									
Yes. [All laugh.] We—we also have social media for our podcast! [Laughs.]
john
									
No, I understand. I’m just—you know I’m just teasing. It’s a beautiful piece of work.
jesse
									
To be fair, John, if you wanna show off crochet, audio might be the [though laughter] best medium. [All laugh.]
john
									
Of course, all this evidence will be available on the Judge John Hodgman page of MaximumFun.org, as well as our Instagram—Instagram.com/JudgeJohnHodgman. See, I can plug stuff too! [All laugh.]
jess
									
So this is meta. It’s our meta, uh, blanket. Sorry.
john
									
Your meta blanket?
jess
									
Our meta blanket. Ooh!
john
									
Oh. Geez that didn’t work out well.
jess
									
[Laughs.] Uh, our meta blanket for the podcast because it is—was created—I forget how we— [Laughs.]
crosstalk
									
Jess: —define this. [Laughs.] John: Somehow this is—somehow this is harder to understand than hyperbolic geometry. Jess: I think it has something to do—I think it— John: It’s a—it’s a meta blanket? It’s a blanket about a blanket? [All laugh.]
jess
									
Well I think it had something to do with that it was birthed from the podcast. I think.
kristen
									
It came out of the podcast. Anyway. Nevermind.
jesse
									
In some ways it was created out of necessity when they ran out of white guys with dreadlocks for whom to make hats. [All laugh.]
kristen
									
If I may add, this is an example of, uh, Jess’s proficiency in general? She’s like, I think I wanna crochet! And it turns out like… a—a Pinterest Win instead of a Pinterest Fail.
john
									
Terms I do not understand.
kristen
									
Oh. [Laughs.] [Audience laughs.]
crosstalk
									
Jess: That sounded like a compliment. Kristen: It’s really, really good. [Laughs.]
john
									
Next— [Laughs.] Next slide, please.
jess
									
Ah.
john
									
Now what—
crosstalk
									
John: Now what am I seeing? Kristen, this is— Jess: This is—these are some examples of what Kristen makes?
jess
									
Um, ‘cause Kristen tends to stick only to three things? She makes baby blankets—which is the top, uh, left corner. She makes Knitted Knockers. Uh, top right corner. And that’s her cat, Ruby.
john
									
Very nice.
jess
									
Um, and she makes scarves! And that’s all she makes. Uh…
john
									
You notice how cats really like yarn?
jess
									
Yeah! [Laughs.] [Audience laughs.]
john
									
How can a creature that is so snobby embrace its cliché so heartily? [Audience laughs. Jesse laughs loudly.] Next slide, please. Alright. Now we are into some stuff here. I—this is—first of all, going from top left… clockwise around.
jess
									
Yes.
john
									
This looks like a crochet Cthlulu. [Audience laughs.]
jess
									
Yes.
john
									
But without an eye.
jess
									
Yes.
john
									
This looks like a teddy bear wearing a crochet cable-knit sweater.
jess
									
Yes.
john
									
You got a crochet Baby Yoda, which is very of-the-moment. Oh, look! There’s one right here! [Assorted responses from the audiences—whistles, “ooohs,” applause, cheers.] Oh no! [Jess laughs. Loud cheering and clapping from audience.]
jesse
									
Now folks—I wanna clarify, for those of you who might not know. Baby Yoda… [Audience laughs.] —is not the Yoda. He’s a yoda. He’s… just in case anybody didn’t know. [Waits for audience laughter to die down.]
kristen
									
I heard you were a medium Star Wars fan.
jesse
									
Yeah. I’m a medium Star Wars fan.
john
									
That’s why—that’s— [Scattered applause, whooping from audience.] That’s why he wouldn’t let me do that podcast. [Audience laughs.] So—so this is crochet. This is a Baby Yoda. Very of-the-moment.
jess
									
Very of-the-moment.
john
									
Very popular.
jess
									
Yes.
john
									
And then… coming around again, you knitted an incredible wineglass. That’s incredible! [All laugh.]
crosstalk
									
Jesse: It’s breathtaking. John: Look at that!
john
									
I mean, it’s crystal clear! And it’s— [Audience laughs.] What—how would you even begin to do that?
jesse
									
It appears to be entirely non-porous!
john
									
[Through laughter] Yes, exactly so! And a beautiful spherical, uh, crochet paperwork—paperweight behind it!
jesse
									
Paperwork. [Laughs.]
john
									
Uh, no. What am I seeing here? What are you trying to show me with this exhibit?
jess
									
I’m showing you some examples of the things that I have made since I’ve started crocheting? Which—again—has been less than a year ago?
john
									
Right!
jess
									
Um, and so I’ve done a decent number of different things. I’ve—
john
									
Your point being, you’re really good at it and you should—and your friend shouldn’t hold you back.
jess
									
Well, I just think I should be allowed to make what I wanna make.
john
									
How do you respond to that, Kristen?
kristen
									
I have not said she can’t crochet. I just think she should be knitting at some point in time. [Some cheers, laughter from audience.]
john
									
Is there any other evidence to see? Let’s take a look.
crosstalk
									
Kristen: Oh, yeah. Those are blankets I made. John: Okay. More stuff. Go, go, go. We can’t—
john
									
There we go! That’s what— [All laugh.] [Goofy voice] Oooh! My tongue’s coming out! [Regular voice] This is a different cat?
jess
									
Yes. This is my cat.
john
									
What is the name of this cat?
jess
									
Igby.
john
									
Igby?
jess
									
Igby.
john
									
Yeah.
jesse
									
Why do you keep him in a drawer? [All laugh.]
jess
									
He’s sleeping on my husband’s lap while he’s doing work at home.
john
									
Oh. That’s very—that’s very nice.
jess
									
But he’s missing a tooth so his tongue sticks out.
crosstalk
									
John: Oh, that’s great. Jesse: Ohhhhh! I love it! [All laugh.]
jesse
									
I’m missing a tooth! [All laugh.]
jesse
									
Yeah.
john
									
Did you have its tooth removed so it would look cuter?
jess
									
No.
john
									
Okay. Good. I’m just—
jesse
									
Idea for that corgi up there. [All laugh.]
john
									
Yeah. That’s right. Just a quick monster check. Monstrosity check there. Any other evidence? No. There we go. Alright! So—I—I don’t quite—first of all, I don’t quite understand… what the dispute is! Kristen. I mean… look! She made a Baby Yoda! This is to be celebrated! [Audience laughs.] Do you know what I mean? Like, you put that online, all of a sudden people are gonna be subscribing to Wine, Whine and Knit by the dozens and dozens! [Audience laughs.]
kristen
									
She’s made it very clear she does not want to go into a Baby Yoda sales market, in all fairness.
john
									
Well it’s highly competitive right now. That’s true. [All laugh.] Also you get sued by Disney. [Kristen laughs.] Uh… but y’know, it seems to me that this craft has—shares a—shall we say—strands of DNA with knitting enough— [Some laughter, some boos from audience.] —that it is something that you could talk about on the podcast? That you could do together? I don’t understand how—how does it make you feel… when… Jess crochets instead of knits?
kristen
									
So… I probably also have a bit of overachiever in me? And… I—
john
									
How many granny squares’ worth? [All laugh.]
kristen
									
Well, so I can’t—
john
									
1,000?!
kristen
									
I can’t crochet! So I can’t communicate in granny squares.
john
									
Ahhhhhh!
kristen
									
It might—
john
									
You know what? You know what color Baby Yoda is?
crosstalk
									
John and Jess: Green.
kristen
									
Uh-oh. [Audience laughs; laughter grows.]
john
									
I think she was making a—she wasn’t making Baby Yoda. She was making you—
kristen
									
No!
john
									
—green with envy! [All laugh.] Rubbing it in your face in a very soft way. [All laugh.] Do you feel jealous that you can’t crochet?
kristen
									
Uh… sure! I—I haven’t even attempted because I’m still trying to figure out knitting and… Jess was also already way ahead of me in knitting, whenever I started knitting. And…
john
									
Oh, okay.
kristen
									
I never even got a chance to catch up! Because she changed her medium.
john
									
Jess, how do you feel when Kristen says she feels left behind by you as a friend and fellow craftsperson? Because you’re better than her at knitting and now you’ve tossed that aside like garbage. [Audience laughs.] You’ve moved on to crochet and all your granny squares that she doesn’t even know how to make one of them. [Audience laughs.]
jess
									
I… I mean… I love my friend? And I want to support her? And if she asked me to show her how to do these things I would be happy to do—I would be happy to do that!
john
									
Kristen, would that be a solution for you? If Jess showed you how to crochet?
kristen
									
Maybe. [Audience laughs.]
john
									
Mmmm. Have you ever asked?
kristen
									
No.
john
									
Have you ever offered?
jess
									
No.
john
									
Alright! [All laugh. Kristen and Jess laugh at length.] If I were to rule in your favor, Kristen, what would you have me rule?
kristen
									
That… at least… every five…? Episodes? She needs to be knitting. [Lone cheer.] While we’re recording. [Long silence.] She can crochet whenever she wants to!
crosstalk
									
John: It just—it just— Kristen: And in all the other recordings!
john
									
It just occurred to me that as much buzz marketing as I’ve been doing for your podcast, I don’t know that I understand what’s happening. [Audience laughs.]
crosstalk
									
Jesse: They’re knitting… and they’re recapping episodes of Veronica Mars! John: When you’re knitting—are— [All laugh.]
john
									
When you’re recording the podcast, are you supposed to be knitting?
kristen
									
We usually are working on our projects.
john
									
Working on your projects.
kristen
									
Yes.
john
									
Are you talking about your projects?
kristen
									
Yes!
jess
									
Mm-hm.
john
									
So you’re not talking about other stuff.
kristen
									
Not usually.
crosstalk
									
Kristen: We’re usually talking about… John: You’re talking about the craft.
kristen
									
Yeah.
john
									
And are you concerned that crochet is gonna dilute the brand? People aren’t gonna know what they’re tuning in for?
kristen
									
Well, there is a part of me that’s like—“knit” is in the title and so if I were to start to crochet, neither one of us are knitting anymore! Why are we called Wine, Whine, and Knit?
jesse
									
Do you think this is—
crosstalk
									
John: Because it’s a dumb pun! That’s why! Jesse: —actually— [Both guests laugh.]
john
									
Your podcast can be about anything!
jesse
									
Do you think that this is actually—do you think those semantics are actually significant to you? Or is there something in the podcast that makes it essential that knitting be going on? [Long pause.] Do you feel like you—it would make you a liar to crochet during a knitting—a podcast with “knit” in the title? [Light audience laughter.]
kristen
									
I think if—if—we abandoned knitting altogether. And like, just quit knitting. Then it seems really weird.
john
									
I’d listen to a Quit Knitting podcast. [All laugh.]
jesse
									
You’d play it around the house, is that what you’re saying? [Laughs.] [All laugh.]
john
									
That’s right. Well, I’d—I’d—I’d play it—it would be a, um… a—a—a podcast that I would play while my wife was asleep. [All laugh.] [In deep, serious, hypnotic tone.] Quit knitting. Quit knit— [Regular voice] No. It’s great. I love it. It’s fantastic. She’s great at it. [Audience laughs.] What would I—what would you—she’s great! She is great at it! Stop! [Audience laughs.] Talk more about that in the verdict. Now. [Audience laughs.] Uh, Jess. What would you have me, uh, rule if I were to rule in your favor?
jess
									
I think I should be allowed to make whatever I want. Because I’m still making something regardless. It’s not like I quit doing anything. I’m still making something every episode that we record. And that I think Kristen needs to expand her horizons because she tried making a hat one time and it—and failed.
crosstalk
									
Jess: And has not a—no. A knit hat. John: A crochet—a crochet.
john
									
Oh!
jess
									
She’s never—the only 3D things Kristen makes are the Knitted Knockers. But she—she tried to make a hat once. It came out looking like a Hershey kiss. [Audience laughs.] And she has never attempted it again. And I think she needs to go back and attempt it again.
jesse
									
I have a—I have a really important question here.
jess
									
Yes.
jesse
									
It seems like… each of you… is very… [long pause] good student, achievement-oriented.
jess
									
Yes.
kristen
									
Yep.
jesse
									
You each have advanced degrees in perhaps the most goody-two-shoes of subjects— [All laugh.] —you could possibly—you are—I am looking right now at four goody shoes. [All laugh.] Do you think… Kristen… that not embracing this new medium in part is a reflection of your embarrassment that you would be bad at it, and Jess, do you think that embracing new media is a way to run from your need to be perfect at each successive medium?
kristen
									
Yes for me. I admit that.
jess
									
I don’t know if it’s a need—running away from a need to be perfect. I just—I like learning new things.
jesse
									
Mm-hm.
jesse
									
What’s next? Oils? Performance? Earthworks? [Audience laughs.]
kristen
									
We haven’t even covered all the other mediums she’s done [though laughter] on the podcast!
crosstalk
									
John: Coming up next— Jesse: What are the other ones? Spiral Jetty 2! [Audience laughs.]
john
									
That is a really obscure cultural reference. [Audience laughs.] And I applaud it.
jesse
									
Yeah. Google it when you get home, folks.
john
									
What are the other ones?
kristen
									
Uh, well, she… drew the, uh, Cinderella’s Castle on a pair of shoes that she bought at Michael’s. Like it full-on looks like Cinderella’s Castle.
john
									
You drew on shoes?
jess
									
Yes.
john
									
Shoe-drawing? [All laugh.] Is this something that you’re pioneering? [Audience laughs.] Alright. I—I like to imagine, by the way—I realized a couple seconds after you finished that sentence that Michael’s is a craft store? But before that I was imagining you going to basically a drug dealer’s house? [Audience laughs.] To buy shoes you can draw on? [Laughs.]
jess
									
I’ve made light-up Mickey ears. It’s a lot of Disney crafting that happens. But yeah. [Laughs.]
john
									
Alright. You’re really looking to get sued by that company!
jess
									
[Through laughter] Yeah. [All laugh.]
john
									
How long have you done the podcast for? How many episodes?
kristen
									
It will be 47 this week.
john
									
Oh, you’re baby—
crosstalk
									
John: You’re baby podcasters! Right? I see what you’re saying. Kristen: I know. Yep. Okay. Jess: Yes.
john
									
Alright. I think I’ve heard everything I need to in order to make my decisions. I’m going to go into my crocheted, uh, Baby Yoda flying egg, uh, to think it over. I’ll be back in a moment with my decision.
jesse
									
Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom! [Audience applauds loudly.] Kristen, how are you feeling about your chances in the case?
kristen
									
Not super great. [Laughs.] [Audience laughs.] Um… I—I don’t want Jess to feel like she can’t craft whatever she wants to craft. I think there probably is some, uh… jealousy on my part that she can just pick up literally whatever and be really good at it the first time around. And I made a hat that looked like a Hershey kiss! [Laughs.] [Jesse laughs.]
jesse
									
Jess, how are you feeling about your chances?
jess
									
Uh, I’m feeling okay? Um… I’m a little… I don’t want Kristen to feel bad, though. [Laughs.] So. [Laughs.] I don’t know. [Laughs.] There are no winners, I think. [Laughs.] [Audience laughs.]
jesse
									
Well, that’s our slogan on the Judge John Hodgman podcast! [All laugh. Some applause from audience.] Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. [Audience applauds, cheers.]
john
									
So… I went… to Brookline High School. [Loud cheers, applause from audience.] Near here. And I went to that high school… with a woman… who is now my wife. And the two of us went to high school with another woman who is now the wife of our mutual best friend. And we’re all four of us together a lot of the time, and it’s quite adorable.
jesse
									
I’ve seen it.
john
									
Yeah! [All laugh.] It’s cute right?
crosstalk
									
Jesse: It’s adorable. John: Cute stuff!
jesse
									
Yep. [Long pause. Audience laughs.]
john
									
Now, my wife and Christine—our friend from high school—are both avid knitters. Also they do other, y’know, handiwork and other crafts and stuff like that.
jesse
									
Building airplanes out of Coke cans.
john
									
That’s right. [Laughs.] No, they don’t do that. Uh, it’s mostly—mostly, uh… yarn and little bits of thread and string-based crafts. That drive me up a tree. [Laughs.] [Audience laughs.] As someone who dislikes clutter.
crosstalk
									
John: And little bits of string all over the place. Jesse: Are they just—
john
									
And paper bags in particular. Don’t care for it!
jesse
									
Are they just making nests for baby birdies? [Laughs.]
john
									
Mmm… maybe. And… Christine’s husband—Jonathan Coulton—and I… feel left out. When they’re sitting there doing their handcrafts. And ignoring us. Because after all—we are… white men. Everyone should be paying attention to us! [Audience laughs.] And at one point… we said to our respective wives, together—like, you sit there at social occasions and you knit and you knit and you knit and you knit. How would you feel if we were out at a bar or at dinner or hanging out together and when you were knitting, Jonathan and I each took out a Revell model kit of a, uh, aircraft carrier or something— [Audience laughs.] —and—and broke open some glue, and started doing that and not talking to you! And they said—we probably wouldn’t notice. [All laugh. Some applaud.] It’s fine. You got the correct message—we don’t wanna talk to you! [Laughs.] [Audience laughs.] That was long ago. Now I’ve come to appreciate what a lot of, uh, psychologists have already acknowledged. Uh, and physicians! Which is—small, uh, handcraft with, uh, bits of string and so-forth—knitting and crocheting and stuff—is profoundly meditative and therapeutic! And sharpens the brain! Uh, as well, it—it is a strange—and it’s—in this weird, liminal, hyperbolic space—which is a misuse of that word, but bear with me, I’m trying to draw it all together—kinda knit it all together, if you will. [Audience laughs.] ‘Cause I knit with words, not strings! [Some audience laughter, a lone applauder.] It—it exists in this place where it is at once highly personal? Where you are in tune with your brain? And also highly social! Where two people can be working on a completely different project and they’re just doing this repetitive motion over and over again, tuning up their brain. They’re touching—they’re tuning into something that’s going on deep in the brain while also being able to talk about, um, The Mandalorian or whatever it is that you’re interested in. And that I realize is why Jonathan and I felt so annoyed. Not ‘cause we were being ignored, but because we were missing out on this. I mean, the truth of the matter is that there’s a reason why there’s such a history—particularly in this region of the United States known as New England—have you heard about it, Jesse?
jesse
									
Not familiar.
john
									
Yeah. It’s uh— [Light applause.] —the Commonwealth of Massachusetts; the State of Maine; the State of Vermont; the State of New Hampshire; Rhode Island; I think that’s it! [All laugh. Lots of applause from audience.] You know, this—this is a region built—built on… [Laughs.] The Puritan principle of, uh, crippling emotional reticence? [All laugh.] And the need— [Laughs.] And the need to be thrifty and productive at all times. And during a period of time when our forebearers—particularly, uh, the—the—our—our female forebearers were—hey! Never—the idea of having therapy and talking about emotions was not allowed. Also, women weren’t supposed to have inner lives! Right? [Laughs.] Like, they weren’t—they didn’t exist to have inner lives! Why would they have emotions! Right? But women figured out that if they knit and they created quilts they could be together and they could talk to each other and they could, essentially, meditate and become fuller, happier human beings! So I think it’s a fascinating—I’m jealous of what you can do. I’m jealous of the fact that you can make a fake boob and a Baby Yoda. Well done. [All laugh. Some in the audience begin applauding.] I think it’s a valuable thing to make a podcast about! But this speaks to the issue at hand! The conflict that you’re having! Which is—you are both together in this partnership and in this friendship and you are also alone! As we all are. Always. [Audience laughs.] Even with our closest friends. Even with our spouses. We are together [ominously] but ultimately we die alone. [Audience laughs.] That is why it is important to like what you like. That is why it’s important to follow your passions and not be held back by friends who are not ready to let you go. [Some light cheers, “ooh” from audience. Then a long pause, followed by laughter.] Looking at you, Kristen! [All laugh.]
jess
									
Mm-hm!
john
									
But also—you have an obligation to your friend who is also—though this is not a business yet—I don’t know if you’re making money off of your knitting podcast—
kristen
									
Actively losing money. [Audience laughs.]
john
									
Actively losing money. [Audience laughs.] Yeah! Yarn’s expensive, right? [Laughs.] Yeah. Uh—you have—but you also have a creative partnership that needs to—that needs to be nurtured and grow. And you’ve heard that your friend feels left behind by you! ‘Cause you’re at a higher skill level than she is, and you’re ditching her! And you—friends don’t ditch their friends! So Kristen, you’ve asked that crochet can be a part of the podcast. Right?
kristen
									
Mm-hm.
john
									
Um, but that it only be a—a portion of the podcast. That it be a segment. Like, once every five episodes or something? Was that what you had in mind?
kristen
									
Yes.
john
									
Okay. That’s not enough. Not enough crochet. That’s—we have to find a balance between togetherness and aloneness. And… so that—so that, uh, Jess can do her thing but also you guys can continue to weave together your lives. More tapestry metaphors! Easier than hyperbolic space metaphors! [All laugh.] I have an idea… that I think is pretty good. [All laugh. Then long silence.] And that is—and I think it’s gonna help your podcast. I think it’s gonna give it an edge. Instead of it just being about knitting, it should be knitting versus crochet. [Laughs.] [Audience laughs. Some applaud and cheer.]
jesse
									
Like, Ecks vs. Sever. [Audience laughs.]
john
									
Yeah, exact— [Laughs.] Now that you make that comparison, maybe it’s not such a great idea. [All laugh.] I think you should… embrace this conflict rather than seek to erase it. You can keep the name of your podcast. It’s good. It should be—knitting is the backbone of the podcast, but embrace the fact that your friend is going into this new craft, and make that into a segment of the podcast! So one segment you’re teaching her how to knit better? Another segment you’re yelling at her for crocheting. [All laugh.] Then talk about the relative merits of both. I would say once—I—I don’t think crochet should be once every five episodes? I think it should be a segment of every episode. While there should also be a pure knitting segment, where Jess is teaching you some new knitting skills so that she doesn’t leave you behind. This is the sound of a gavel— [Sound of a gavel.] Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. [Audience cheers, applauds.]
jesse
									
Thank you to Kristen and Jess! [Applause continues at length.] Hey—really quickly—what’s the name of the podcast, again?
kristen
									
WWKD Podcast.
john
									
Wine, Whine, Knitting, D. [Laughs.] Day?
jess
									
Yes.
john
									
You know what? Maybe a new name. [All laugh.] Thank you so much! [Audience applauds.] [Sound of gavel.]
promo
									
Music: Gentle, upbeat piano music. Helen Hong: Hey, J. Keith. J. Keith van Straaten: Hey, Helen! I hear you have a true/false quiz you want me to finish! Helen: I do! Here we begin: We host a trivia gameshow podcast on the MaxFun network called... Go Fact Yourself! J. Keith: True! Helen: Correct! The show is all about celebrity guests answering trivia questions about things J. Keith enjoys. J. Keith: False. We sometimes don't talk about baseball or cats. Helen: Thank god. It's questions about things they enjoy! Next, we bring on surprise experts every episode. J. Keith: True! Helen: Correct! Final question: It's just the two of us sitting alone with these guests. J. Keith: False. Helen: Correct! We have a live audience at the Angel City Brewery! [Audience cheers and claps.] Helen: See? [A bell dings.] Helen: You can hear Go Fact Yourself every first and third Friday of the month, and if you don't listen, you can go fact yourself! J. Keith: True! [Music finishes.]
promo
									
Music: Dramatic, movie trailer–esque music. [The hosts use very "announcer" voices in this promo.] Mark Gagliardi: We interrupt the podcast you're listening to to tell you about another podcast! That's right: We Got This with Mark and Hal. Hal Lublin: That's correct, Mark! This is Hal. We do the hard work for you! Settling all of the meaningless arguments you have with your friends. Mark: So tune in every week on the Maximum Fun network for We Got This with Mark and Hal, and all your questions will be asked... and answered. Hal: You're welcome! [Music reaches an apex and quiets down.] Mark: Alright. That's enough of that. Chorus: [Singing] We Got This!
john
									
[Gavel bangs.] [Audience applauds.] Now Jesse, we have a lot of friends here in the Boston area, as well as quite a few litigants. We’ve been here before. We’ve heard cases from people here before. Very recently, a couple, uh, in Cambridge, Massachusetts—
jesse
									
Mm-hm.
john
									
—uh, came to our—
jesse
									
The existence of which you refuse to acknowledge. [Light audience laughter and applause.]
john
									
Look. I’ve seen no proof. [Jesse laughs.] You know what I mean? [Audience laughs.] Show it! Show me! Like, you know what I mean? Show it to me on a map. Impossible! You know what I mean? Yeah. [Laughs.] Uh… some time ago—a fairly recently time, actually, a couple, uh, from Cambridge came to our courtroom asking for guidance as to whether or not, uh, the—the wife of this couple should be allowed to try again. Uh, to start a new project… based on a failed past project. The failed past project was a bucket of worms. [All laugh.] [Through laughter] On the countertop, Uh, that—how could that fail?
jesse
									
Yeah!
john
									
Specifically, a compost system based on worms eating old, uh, kitchen scraps and then pooping out fertilizer. That’s what worms do; that’s what the novel Dune is about. So— [All laugh.] And unfortunately, it all went wrong. That first one went wrong. First experiment went wrong. ‘Cause some flies got in there and laid some eggs and they turned into horrible grubs. That escaped. Also that’s what Dune is about. [All laugh.] So… Evan asked me to prohibit Ann from starting the worm compost again. And I said no, I wanna see more worms!
jesse
									
Yeah.
john
									
And they’re here with us tonight… to give us an update! [Audience cheers and applauds.]
jesse
									
Please welcome Evan and Ann!
john
									
Evan and Ann… with the vermiculture report from Cambridge, Massachusetts! It is—it is Cambridge, correct?
evan
									
Yes.
john
									
Yeah. Interesting.
evan
									
People’s Republic of Cambridge. [Audience laughs.]
john
									
Sure. [A few scattered laughs, whoops, applause.] I remember hearing that joke when I lived here as a child. [Audience laughs.] But I still don’t believe in where you live. Anyway. Uh, nice to see you in person! Um… now, the way that this ended… was that I—I—I said that Ann deserved a second shot because the first worm bin got compromised. You left it outside, right? And you left a sign on it saying “Come on, flies, and live here!”
ann
									
Uh, someone else left it outside? But I gave him permission.
jesse
									
But she did make the sign and the sign didn’t say “Come on, flies.”
john
									
Come on, flies!
jesse
									
It said— [Ann laughs.] “Come on, flies, into my husband’s boots!” [All laugh.]
john
									
Yeah. Do you have any worms in your boots? Any grubs in your boots?
evan
									
Not yet. Uh, not yet.
john
									
Ann… the reason that I gave you permission—or that I ordered in your favor, Ann, I should say—‘cause I don’t give anyone permission. They do what they want. Uh, that I ordered in your favor and allowed you to start a second worm composting, uh, bin, was that I saw a very beautiful ceramic upscale one on a website and I bought it for you guys.
ann
									
Yeah. And it was really nice of you.
john
									
Well, you’re welcome.
jesse
									
Everyone look under your chairs! [All laugh uproariously. Much applause and cheering.]
john
									
You get a worm bin! You get a worm bin! You get a worm bin! [Laughs.] So I want to know—did—I mean, this thing looks like it was designed… by a mid-century Danish artisan. [Audience laughs.] It is white ceramic. With cork involved. It seemed very attractive—almost biological in form, to me.
jesse
									
Though I have to say, John, immediately in our subreddit at MaximumFun.Reddit.com, there were two strong reactions. One was from someone who worked in municipal composting who said—unless you send it to a special place, the worm farm—the worm farts kill the earth. But a special place can capture the farts and turn them into fuel. [Audience laughs.]
jesse
									
I didn’t follow that one entirely? But… I like that it had “worm farts” in it.
john
									
Signed, the ghost of Frank Herbert.
jesse
									
Yeah. [Audience laughs.] The other one was concerns about the size and viability of the attractive, uh, vermiculture compost bin that you chose. Specifically that it didn’t have a spigot? To run off the worm juices? [Sounds of disgust from audience.] What is the special term for the—for the worm juice?
ann
									
Worm tea?
john
									
Worm tea. Ughhh. [Sounds of disgust and laughter from audience. Ann laughs.] I like to call it Nightcrawler Liquor. [Audience laughs.] So—look. I knew when I bought this thing for you… with the—with the company credit card, by the way, Jesse.
jesse
									
Oh, thank you, John.
john
									
Yeah. You’re welcome. That—things that look nice don’t always work best. And I was kinda hoping… that you were gonna bring it here tonight so that (a) I could see how big it was and how beautiful it was in person; and (b) I could watch you as you smashed it at my feet— [Audience laughs.] —and cursed my name. And turned this stage into a writhing mass of worms. [Audience laughs.] But you didn’t bring it with you. So how big is this thing? Like, how big is it, would you say?
ann
									
Oh, I’d say about the size of a corgi. [All laugh.] Maybe, like, half as tall.
john
									
About the size of a corgi but about, uh, one millionth as opinionated?
ann
									
If you—yeah. Took off the legs. [Audience laughs.]
john
									
So it’s pretty—that’s pretty big! That’s a—
ann
									
It was like, reasonably large. So… uh, I also read all of the comments on the Reddit and Instagram. Um, and I would agree—someone wrote a very detailed critique of the design flaws. Um, so we just got it set up. We didn’t set it up before Christmas ‘cause we were waiting for the holidays. But, um—
john
									
Right. Because you thought someone was gonna bring you 500 to 1,000 worms in your stocking!
ann
									
Yeah. Well, so that’s actually one of the updates. Um, so— [Laughs.] They were also—there was a stream of commenters who also critiqued me paying for worms. Um, and they said I spent too much on worms and I should’ve just asked a friend [though laughter] for some worms. And I’m like, [though laughter] I’m the friend with the worms! [All laugh.]
jesse
									
Yeah. It’s her thing!
ann
									
Yeah. So, uh… so we decided because it was a—a little bit smaller bin and we were concerned—well, “we.” I was concerned about the greenage. Um, we were just starting with 25 to 50 worms. This time.
john
									
I feel like that’s enough for Cambridge! [Audience laughs.]
ann
									
No. Well, the thing about the worms is they actually like self— [inaudible].
john
									
You wanted 500 to 1,000 worms.
ann
									
Well, the worms self-regulate their population? So they will, actually, like, adjust to the right size of the bin.
jesse
									
That’s dark.
ann
									
Yeah. [All laugh.]
jesse
									
That’s really dark.
ann
									
I mean, someone—I think it was someone else on Reddit did call this easily the most unfair ruling in the history of the podcast. Which I thought [though laughter] was pretty rich.
john
									
Why was it— [All laugh.] —as rich as earthy worm loam!
ann
									
Yeah, exactly. [Laughs.]
evan
									
Which is also why we didn’t really wanna bring it on? ‘Cause, y’know, I take the tea to work and just the thought of like accidentally spilling, like, worm tea and worms all over—
john
									
Worm tea on the tea! That’s no good, is what you’re saying.
crosstalk
									
Evan: No. That’d be a bad look. Ann: Yeah.
crosstalk
									
Ann and John: Yeah. Ann: Um—so yeah. If— John: Uh—I woulda sent—
john
									
I woulda sent a car for you. In fact— [Jesse laughs.] Can we send an Uber over to pick it up and bring it over here before the night’s out? [All laugh.] Just don’t leave it outside, I guess.
ann
									
Yeah. Uh, no. It is—but it is very beautiful. I would say. It’s not ceramic. It is, like, a—some sort of poly material but it’s like—it’s a hefty one. The cork is really nice. It’s definitely—it’s actually in the middle of our dining room table right now? [All laugh.]
john
									
Yeahhhh!
jesse
									
Martha Stewart style!
ann
									
We don’t—yeah. We don’t—we don’t have a lot of counterspace and Evan was like… so pleased that he got his way—I don’t know. You didn’t really get your way at all. But I think that—because I didn’t get what I wanted you felt like you got what you wanted?
jesse
									
It’s called— [All laugh.]
evan
									
Now—now—now—now if I don’t finish my salad I can just like take the top off the thing and pour it right in.
crosstalk
									
John: Right there at the table! Evan: [Inaudible.]
evan
									
Yeah. [Laughs.] Right at the table.
jesse
									
Evan is practicing self-gaslighting. [All laugh.]
ann
									
Um… yeah. But I—
evan
									
But I’m very happy. Yeah.
ann
									
Yeah. I would—I would say like several people including some colleagues have reached out to me and said that they are now considering getting a worm bin. And I would say if you’re considering getting this worm bin, like, one thing that does seem tricky about it eventually is… it would be hard to get the compost back out? With, like, you would have to take a long break to have it be finished. Um, so I do think there’s some kind of like… ergonomic, like, process things. I don’t know. I’m not like an operations person. But.
john
									
Is—you—I mean, obviously, it’s still early.
ann
									
Yeah. We’re very early—I mean, we’re like one week in. But I’m just looking at…
john
									
Right. And your optimism seems cautious at best. [All laugh.]
ann
									
Yeah. I mean, I really [though laughter] want—
crosstalk
									
Ann: —that, like, four-tier one. John: I’m pretty con—
john
									
Say it again?
ann
									
I really want that four-tier worm bin.
crosstalk
									
John: Yeah. But that looks ugly. Ann: It looks so—
john
									
You understand? [Audience laughs.]
ann
									
It is definitely—like, it’s not a good look. But…
john
									
That—that looks like something you would have in a post-apocalyptic bunker. Not—
ann
									
Well, maybe, uh, Kristen or Jess would come draw Cinderella’s castle on it for me! [Audience laughs.]
john
									
Oh, callback!
ann
									
Yeah! [Audience laughs.]
john
									
Uh—if— [All laugh.] My prediction is? That this beautiful piece… of… of worm colony art… is actually… a piece of bleep and will not work. [All laugh. Some applaud.] And I really don’t know what’s gonna happen… when that self-actuates. When you realize that I bought you a piece of garbage. [Audience laughs.] I mean, you—it’s not even—it’s—it’s a—it’s a piece of garbage that’s not even good at making garbage good. Do you know what I mean? Like— [Audience laughs.]
ann
									
Yeah.
john
									
Which is the whole point of it! And then you’re going to have this dispute once more and you’ll have to come back on the podcast and we’ll talk about it again.
ann
									
Well, I would say what you do is I think you like really helped open the discourse around vermicomposting? So—
crosstalk
									
John: Sure! That’s basically been my mission for a long time. Ann: It’s more of like a by-product? [Audience laughs.]
john
									
Yeah. I—
jesse
									
What are—what are you doing with the worm’s farts? [Audience laughs.]
ann
									
Uh, I think they’re being absorbed by the cork.
jesse
									
Mm-hm. Mm-hm.
ann
									
Yeah.
jesse
									
Yeah.
evan
									
I—I think—you can think about these things too much. Y’know. [Audience laughs.]
jesse
									
Sorry if I care about the planet! [All laugh.] [Through laughter] If there’s one lesson that I would like the podcast listeners to take away, is don’t overthink the bucket of worms you have in your dining room table. [Audience laughs.] I’m glad you have this new conversation piece. Well, keep us posted as what goes on.
crosstalk
									
Evan: Oh, we will! Ann: Yeah.
john
									
As the worms eat and poop.
ann
									
Yes. [Audience laughs.]
crosstalk
									
John: Thank you very much. Evan and Ann, everybody! Ann: Will do. Evan: Thank—thank you. [Audience applauds.]
jesse
									
Evan and Ann! [Applause continues.] John, so far… we’ve only distributed one justice to Boston and I think Boston requires many more justices! [Pronounces it with a long “e,” as though pluralizing a word that would have been “justicis” in the singular.]
john
									
Yeah. I think that this is still a lawless land and we have some litigants who are ready to step up and present their disputes in a segment we call Swift Justice! But before we do, let’s welcome back to the stage our very special guest, Josh Kantor! Josh Kantor, everybody! [Audience applauds, cheers, and whistles.] Now—if you don’t know—Josh is obviously a musician. Uh, he’s a friend of the—of the podcast. Uh, he has his band—your band is called…
josh kantor
									
Oh, Jim’s Big Ego.
john
									
[Through laughter] Yeah. That’s right. Uh, and—uh—Josh is among many other—he’s a fan of comedy. He’s probably the world’s greatest mid-career Tom Noonan lookalike. [Multiple people laugh.] Uh…
crosstalk
									
Josh: I’m glad to find my people out there! Jesse: You got mad at me for bringing up earthworks!
john
									
That’s right. [Laughs.] [Audience laughs.] Uh, and—and—and, uh, Josh also is the organist at Fenway Park! [Audience applauds and cheers.] So when you’re—when you’re there at the ballpark and bored out of your mind—
jesse
									
It happens. It’s a lugubrious game.
john
									
Uh, and Josh plays some cool indie rock. That’s the one—he’s the one who’s doing it! He’s up there in the corner of a upper-deck bar next to the chicken wing table, playing his heart out on the organ. So thank you very much, Josh, for joining us! [Audience applauds and cheers.]
crosstalk
									
Jesse: I really appreciate it! John: Thank you! [Applause and cheering continues.]
john
									
So… we’re gonna hear—let’s put, uh, let’s put 10 minutes on the clock. Hear as many cases as we can in that time. And Josh? Maybe you’ll play a little, uh, intro and outro music for our litigants?
josh
									
Sure, sure!
john
									
Great! Let’s get it going! Swift Justice!
jesse
									
Please welcome our first litigants: Joshua and Ema! [Organ plays intro music.]
john
									
Joshua… and Ema. Uh, which of you brings this case before me for justice?
joshua
									
I do.
john
									
And I—excuse me. And I presume you are Joshua?
joshua
									
I am.
john
									
And what is the nature of your dispute?
joshua
									
Um… so… Ema and I are married. And, uh, we have a car. And I have a drivers license—
john
									
That’s a lot of bragging so far. [Audience laughs.]
joshua
									
And— [Laughs.] I have a driver’s license.
john
									
Whoa-ho-hoo!
joshua
									
And—
john
									
Whoa-ho-ho-hoo!
crosstalk
									
Joshua: Ema— John: You are— Jesse: I have three pairs of shoes!
john
									
[Mockingly] You are a real grownup, aren’t you? [Audience laughs.] Married with a car and a license! [Audience laughs.] Next you’re gonna tell me you’re legal to drink! [Audience laughs.]
joshua
									
I wear underpants every day. [Audience laughs.] And Ema does not have a driver’s license.
john
									
Ohhh. Because you’re a child! [Audience laughs.]
ema
									
No!
john
									
No?
ema
									
I’m of legal age.
john
									
You’re of legal age! Yeah. You’re also married!
ema
									
Yes.
john
									
And you probably have some accreditation.
ema
									
Sure!
john
									
Uh, and so—
ema
									
I have a Massachusetts State ID. [Audience laughs; some applaud.]
john
									
I’m sorry, I didn’t hear you. What kind of ID?
ema
									
The Massachusetts State ID?
john
									
Still don’t understand what you’re saying.
jesse
									
“Commonwealth.” [Audience laughs.]
john
									
Wanna try one more time?
ema
									
The state ID?
john
									
Ahhh! “Commonwealth!” [Audience laughs.]
ema
									
Commonwealth. Eh.
john
									
It probably says “State of Massachusetts” on it anyway. [Ema laughs.]
john
									
So it’s—it’s a—uh, it’s a losing and pointless battle that I’m waging on behalf of commonwealths. But I’m with you there, Pennsylvania and Kentucky! Alright. [Audience laughs.]
john
									
Uh, Virginia. Also.
john
									
Uh… but anyway. Uh, you don’t have a drivers license and um, and why is this a problem?
joshua
									
So we, um… like to go on, uh, road-trip type vacations often. Sometimes we’ll drive from home. We’ll go to New Hampshire for the weekend or something like that or we’ll fly somewhere and rent a car. And drive several hundred miles. Stopping at various points along the way.
jesse
									
We know what road trips are, sir! [All laugh.]
crosstalk
									
John: What is an example— Jesse: We’ll use the round wheel—
jesse
									
—on the left-hand side of the front of the car… to change directions. There are two pedals at the bottom of the car… [Audience laughs.]
john
									
Sometimes we will turn on a radio… or… a Bluetooth device to listen to a podcast. We look at scenery as we go by! What are the kinds of road trips that you go on?
joshua
									
So most recently, um, we did a five-day trip between Houston and New Orleans?
john
									
I believe you have some, uh—
crosstalk
									
John: —evidence you need to show us. Joshua: Yes. There is some evidence. So.
joshua
									
Up on the screen—so—
john
									
Thank you, Connor.
joshua
									
So this—
john
									
This is the route you took from Houston—
crosstalk
									
Joshua and John: —to New Orleans.
joshua
									
Yes. So we stopped along the way at various places—
john
									
Yeah. Road trip. We got it. [All laugh.] It’s fun! But the point is…? You do all the driving.
joshua
									
Yes.
john
									
And you would like to not do all of the driving.
joshua
									
I would like to not… always have to be doing all the driving, but I think there’s also a safety component to it?
john
									
Oh?
joshua
									
Um, in case there was some kind of an emergency. Um, I’m the only licensed driver!
john
									
Ema, do you know how to drive?
ema
									
Somewhat.
john
									
In an emer— [Audience laughs.]
jesse
									
There’s a round wheel… [All laugh.]
ema
									
I can’t really park.
john
									
You can’t park? No. No one can. [Audience laughs.] Uh… do you—so—do—do you feel that you could drive in case of an—like, what kind of emergency do you imagine is going to happen, Josh?
joshua
									
Um, I don’t know. I have a stroke? [Laughs.]
john
									
Yeah. [Audience laughs.] If you’re driving and you have a stroke… I don’t think Ema being licensed to drive is going to help your situation.
joshua
									
Or… a cocktail? [Laughs.] [Audience laughs.] Maybe? [Laughs.] Or two? [Some applause from audience.]
john
									
I would think if you’re driving and have two cocktails, that’s an emergency for your marriage. [Joshua laughs.] Uh, it’s—we have had a case where, uh, it was a husband-and-wife situation. And they only had a manual transmission and the wife could drive but she didn’t know how to drive a manual. And I ordered her—because they had a child—they—I ordered that she should learn how to drive a manual-shift car. (A) so that if necessary you could drive a person to the hospital, and (B) uh, because it’s awesome to know how to drive a manual transmission car! [Audience laughs.] It’s fun! It’s fun. And knowing how to do things and being legal to do them is also fun. So why am I—given this precedent, and given the obvious—obvious life truth that knowing how to do things and being allowed to do them legally is fun—and hitting benchmarks and milestones in life as you grow older and march, eventually, towards death—is fun— [Audience laughs.] What is—what is your reason for not wanting to learn… to drive properly and get a license?
ema
									
[Long pause.] Well I don’t think driving is particularly fun? But it’s a necessity? And I’ve taken driving lessons! It’s just I haven’t taken the exam yet.
john
									
Right! Okay. So you don’t like it!
ema
									
Nope!
john
									
Okay.
ema
									
Not at all.
john
									
And you live in a city where you don’t have to drive.
ema
									
I know, right?
john
									
Yeah. I— [Audience laughs.] In fact, you live in a city where it’s advisable that you never drive. [All laugh.] You’re raising—you’re raising your finger?
joshua
									
Well, I just—okay. So there—can we—can we look at the next picture, please?
john
									
Let’s please look at the next picture.
jesse
									
I didn’t see him raise the finger. Was he raising the official finger of Massachusetts drivers? [Audience laughs.]
joshua
									
Wrong picture. Wrong—this is the wrong picture!
john
									
You may not have noticed, but Josh raised an index finger very subtly and politely, which is how a Boston driver indicates they’d like to move into the next lane. [All laugh.]
joshua
									
It’s the wrong—it’s the wrong picture. Sorry.
john
									
This is the wrong—this is a picture of—of—
joshua
									
Yes. This is her evidence.
john
									
You and Ema…
crosstalk
									
John: Together. Joshua: There’s one more picture.
john
									
Where are you in this photo, Ema?
ema
									
We’re in, uh, uh—well, we were in an all-inclusive in Cancun where we did not have to drive. Well, he didn’t have to drive. And we had a lot of fun, too!
john
									
You—you managed to have fun without driving—
ema
									
I know, right?
crosstalk
									
Ema: That’s possible! [Laughs.] John: —from Houston to New Orleans. Right.
john
									
Okay. That’s fine. It looks like you’re having a good time. Uh, next slide, please?
joshua
									
There we go. Okay. So! [Audience laughs.] We—
john
									
So—come back, buddy! [Audience laughs.] Let the record show I am looking for evidence… that is going to sway me to Josh’s side of the case. He’s very eager to see a particular slide. We see them— [Audience laughs and applauds at length.] We see them in Cancun together. Joshua’s like, no, no, no, no, no. That’s the wrong slide. I have a very particular slide in mind that’s going to pertain directly to my case! That Ema should learn how to drive! [Audience laughs.] And then we get to the slide… of a snowy field and a dog leaping over a stream. And Joshua goes—there we go. [All laugh; audience also applauds.] It might as well have been a crocheted Baby Yoda! [Audience laughs.] For all that it seems to have to do with what you’re talking about. But I bet you’re gonna weave me a word picture that proves what’s happening here! What’s going on in this photo that I need to pay attention to?
joshua
									
So. This is in the White Mountains.
john
									
Sure.
joshua
									
In New Hampshire.
john
									
Yep.
joshua
									
And it is not just a snowy field; this is a trail. Several miles long. So—
john
									
I understand what a trail is. [Audience laughs.]
joshua
									
You can’t—you can’t see it. But we are wearing crampons—
john
									
Crampons?
joshua
									
Yes.
john
									
Right.
joshua
									
And the snow is—is very deep on either side of the trail and I fell in up to my, uh… waist. Several times.
john
									
Yeah.
joshua
									
And that is our dog, yes. And um—
john
									
What’s the name of your dog?
joshua
									
Kristofferson. [Audience laughs and applauds.]
jesse
									
That’s good. That’s good.
john
									
Cute dog!
jesse
									
Good. Second tier. First tier is Hambone, but. [Audience laughs.]
joshua
									
And—for example—if we were in the White Mountains in the snow and I were to, y’know, break an ankle or something, no cell phone reception—who’s gonna drive to the hospital? Or what if something happens to the dog?
john
									
Where is the car?!
joshua
									
Several miles down the trail!
john
									
So it doesn’t matter! [All laugh.]
ema
									
[Through laughter] That’s what I said! That’s what I said!
john
									
Everyone pictured will die! [All laugh.]
joshua
									
The—the dog would pull me out on a makeshift, um…
john
									
The dog would pull you out—
crosstalk
									
Joshua: On—I would—I— [Laughs.] We would latch—we would lash— John: Go on. I wanna hear—the whole fantasy you have in your head! [All laugh.]
joshua
									
—together branches.
crosstalk
									
John: You’d lash together branches. The dog would?! Joshua: Together branches and lay me on the branches and the dog would pull—no!
joshua
									
Forget it. [Laughs.]
jesse
									
Yeah. I think he could do that. [All laugh.]
ema
									
He’s a small-to-medium-sized dog.
jesse
									
How come the dog doesn’t have a driver’s license? Answer me that! [Audience laughs.]
john
									
He’s got a sweet—got a sweet harness!
crosstalk
									
Joshua: Yeah. It’s a sweet harness. John: You could put—
john
									
You could put a flask of whiskey in there and also a note saying “Save—save me from dying! Enjoy this whiskey in return! I had a couple of cocktails and I felt in the snow and my crampons fell off!” [All laugh.]
joshua
									
Exactly. I rest my case. [Audience laughs.]
john
									
Do you know how to use a—[pauses as audience continues laughing]. Alright. I find in Ema’s favor. [John bangs the gavel. All laugh, Ema especially.]
jesse
									
Please welcome Michael and Maggie! [Organ plays intro music with exciting flourish at the end.]
john
									
Josh—Josh Kantor. Do you know how to drive?
josh
									
Yes.
john
									
Good. [Audience laughs.] [Through laughter] Thank you.
josh
									
I don’t, but I know how.
crosstalk
									
John: Wait, you know— Jesse: You don’t drive. Josh: I don’t drive.
jesse
									
You know about the roundie and the pedals and…
josh
									
Right.
jesse
									
Okay.
john
									
Do you—do you—do you, uh— [Someone laughs.]
josh
									
I brought this on the subway, so.
john
									
Oh, okay. Great. [Audience laughs.] Uh, are you licensed to drive?
josh
									
Yes.
john
									
Okay. Oh hi, you guys! [All laugh.]
crosstalk
									
Jesse: Michael and Maggie. John: You must be Michael and Maggie!
maggie
									
Yes. Hi.
john
									
Michael—you’re wearing a Hartford Whalers cap.
michael
									
The greatest sports logo of all time. [Light audience applause.]
john
									
That’s right. I would—
michael
									
I heard your insult earlier.
john
									
Say it again?
michael
									
I heard your insult earlier.
john
									
My insult?
michael
									
About Connecticut!
john
									
Oh, about Connecticut. [A couple of light “boos” from the audience.] Oh, yeah. It was just—it’s just some interregional joshing! [Audience laughs.]
michael
									
Yeah. It’s okay.
jesse
									
No one really knows what Connecticut is, anyway. [Audience laughs.]
john
									
Yeah. It’s like, uh, it’s like the Cambridge of states! [Audience laughs.]
john
									
It’s rumored—it’s rumored—uh, basically what happens is I drive over a border and it says “Connecticut welcomes you” and then I fall asleep until I get to Massachusetts. [Laughs.] [Audience laughs.]
crosstalk
									
Jesse: I really only— John: I go into this trance!
jesse
									
I really only know it as an address on the back of a pill bottle. [Audience laughs.]
john
									
Oh! [Laughs.] Okay. [Audience laughs.] We actually had a great meal in Union, Connecticut today.
crosstalk
									
John: At the Traveler Restaurant! Jesse: We did! Traveler Restasurant. Books and food. [Cheering, applause from some audience members.]
john
									
Yeah! You— [Laughs.] You—have you ever been there?
michael
									
No.
john
									
Oh, and I thought you were from Connecticut.
michael
									
Hartford. It’s a little far away.
maggie
									
I’m not.
john
									
Hartford’s not very far away from Hartford. It’s—alright.
crosstalk
									
John: You—did you drive from— Jesse: Yeah. Connecticut’s not that big of a state, dude! [Laughs.]
john
									
Did you drive from Hartford today on 84?
michael
									
No. No. No.
crosstalk
									
John: Okay. ‘Cause it’s just right there over the line on 84. Michael: I understand.
john
									
You get a tuna melt, you get three books for free! [Audience laughs.] They just buy up—they just take books out of libraries that are closing. [Laughs.] [Audience laughs.] And give them away! A bunch of Tom Clancys. Anyway. Hi! [Audience laughs.] You both know how to drive? What’s the problem? Who wants justice? [Audience laughs.] Alright. Uh, what—Michael, what is the justice you seek?
michael
									
So. We have a four-year-old and an eight—nine-month-old now.
john
									
Mm-hm.
michael
									
And I took the four-year-old—he was two when I took him to a store. I’m not gonna buzz market.
jesse
									
It’s okay. Supermarket?
michael
									
Nope. Nope. Um, Target. [Scattered whooping, laughter in audience.]
michael
									
Yeah.
john
									
Yeah. Yeah. That’s not okay. I’m sorry. [Audience laughs.] You were right. You were right. I was wrong.
michael
									
She was at work. She’s a nurse. She works overnights. And, um— [Long whoop and cheer of “Woo! Nurses!” from the audience, followed by some laughter and applause.]
john
									
Yeah! I’m—that’s amazing! You’re a nurse! Fantastic!
maggie
									
Thank you!
john
									
I rule in your favor. Next? [All laugh.] Uh, Michael, what do you do besides complain?
michael
									
Um. [Audience laughs.] I’m an auto appraiser.
john
									
Say again?
michael
									
Auto appraiser.
john
									
Auto appraiser. Alright. Cool! Yeah. You definitely know how to drive a car then.
michael
									
Yes.
john
									
Right? Good. [Audience laughs.]
michael
									
So I go to load my son in the cart.
john
									
Yeah.
michael
									
The shopping cart. And I ask him if he wants to go in the front or the back.
john
									
Right.
michael
									
So. He says—I wanna go in the front. So I go to load him in the basket where everything goes.
john
									
Right. Where you—the front!
michael
									
Right.
john
									
Right.
michael
									
But—
crosstalk
									
Jesse: The dangerous area that children shouldn’t be allowed to choose to ride in. Michael: Exactly. Where the—the—the seat says not to put them there.
john
									
Yeah. Not the child seat. Near the pushbar.
michael
									
Correct.
john
									
Right? Did you just toss your child into the main basket—
michael
									
Yes.
jesse
									
Like a bag of oranges!
john
									
So he can roll around in there. [Audience laughs.]
crosstalk
									
Michael: Right. And fall out. Yeah. John: And get—y’know—
john
									
Metal mesh marks on his face and stuff. [Audience laughs.] Right.
jesse
									
Did you at least give him crampons? [Laughs.] [Audience laughs.]
michael
									
So I go to load him in the front of the cart.
john
									
Right.
michael
									
And he says—no, I want to go in the front.
john
									
Uh-huh.
michael
									
And I say, this is the front. He’s like, no it’s not! He goes, mommy says the other side is the front. And points to the seat. And— [Scattered applause from audience which grows into appreciative laughter.]
maggie
									
Thank you.
john
									
So let me get this… straight. [Audience laughs. John pauses while the audience laughs at length.] I’m at a store. Unnamed variety store. With a classic grocery pushcart. Right? And I’m standing with my hands on the pushbar. Right? ‘K? You can picture this? I mean, I’m not—I’m not a mime. [Audience laughs.] By training.
jesse
									
But by inclination. [Audience laughs.]
john
									
And I’m pushing on it. [Audience laughs. John pauses at length.] Mime—mime by hobby. [Audience laughs; some applaud.] No, okay! So—here I am. I’m going this way. This end that I’m pushing… what end is that?
maggie
									
The front. [Laughs.] [Mix of applause and derisive boos from the audience.]
john
									
Why? [Audience laughs.]
maggie
									
I suppose… that it is from the perspective of the passenger? And when they’re in the seat—
john
									
Right.
maggie
									
—up front, they’re with me in the front and if they’re in the bucket they’re in the back.
john
									
Right. So—
maggie
									
And—
john
									
Just like in a car— [Audience laughs.]
crosstalk
									
John: If you’re sitting in the seat— Maggie: I’ve heard that argument before. [Audience laughs.]
john
									
If you’re sitting in the seat of a car and you’re facing this way, and your mommy is pushing you this way— [All laugh.] —this is obviously the front of the car!
maggie
									
Correct. [Laughs.]
john
									
Right? Just like when you’re driving! And you’re going like this!
maggie
									
It might not make sense, but it’s how it is.
john
									
Actually, now I understand. It’s like—it’s like you’re driving a car in reverse!
crosstalk
									
Maggie: It’s a—it’s a gift! John: This is more physical activity I’ve had in months. [Audience laughs.]
john
									
So it’s—it’s from the point of view of… your child.
maggie
									
Yes.
john
									
Imagine them… driving in reverse. They’re sitting facing this way. This would be the front? You appreciate how much mind work has to go into this? [Audience laughs.]
maggie
									
I do.
john
									
It is rather counter-intuitive—how did you start thinking of it this way? Did you grow up this way?
maggie
									
Yes.
john
									
Really?
maggie
									
I’ve never though of it anything different and I never realized it was a point of contention with Mike and I? Until two years ago. [Audience laughs.] And we’ve known each other for over twelve years. So it only came about when the children started riding in the cart.
john
									
Right. That’s when they started narcing on you. Going, mommy calls this the front! [Audience laughs.]
maggie
									
Yes. Exactly. [Laughs.]
john
									
And—and—and—and—and—uh, Michael is like, who did I marry? It’s like— [All laugh.] It’s like when McNulty finds all the samurai swords in, uh, Idris Elba’s apartment in The Wire! What—who was I tracking?! [Audience laughs.] [Jesse sighs.] [All laugh.]
jesse
									
Get back to something everyone can relate to? Like monumental artworks [though laughter] utilizing the land?
john
									
Spiral Jetty? Yeah. [Audience laughs.]
jesse
									
[Through laughter] Yeah.
john
									
So—where did you grow up?
maggie
									
Uh, South Shore.
john
									
South Shore of what?
maggie
									
Massachusetts! [Cheers and applause from audience.]
crosstalk
									
John: Oh, so—Massachusetts. Maggie: Best commonwealth ever.
john
									
Uh… is that some kind of upside-down land? [Audience laughs.] Did—did other people in your family refer to grocery carts this way?
maggie
									
So we polled a lot of family members and friends and my entire family agrees with me. [Scattered applause and cheers.] So I—
crosstalk
									
Maggie: I blame my mother. John: And they don’t—
maggie
									
And what she taught me.
john
									
Are there people who agree? [Affirmative cheering and applause from audience.]
maggie
									
Thank you! [Scattered boos from audience.]
crosstalk
									
John: What is happening? Jesse: Do you people pull the cart through the store? [Mixed reactions from audience, including boos.]
john
									
Easy! Easy! Bob Justice is later! [Audience laughs.]
jesse
									
Somebody just went—no! It’s just the front! [Audience laughs.]
maggie
									
Sounds like my son. [Laughs.]
jesse
									
No matter what the crooked media tells you. [Laughs.] [Audience laughs.]
john
									
In this podcast, we celebrate… regionalisms. It gives interesting tapestry and texture to everyday life. To know that in, uh, South Carolina they drink cheerwine, whereas in Maine they drink moxie. Uh— [Light cheers from audience.] That there are different ways you pronounce things. That there are different ways that, uh, that there are different—greeting conventions! I am willing to accept… that in the South Shore, there is a microclimate— [Audience laughs.]
maggie
									
I have a large family.
john
									
No! I understand. [Audience laughs.]
maggie
									
It’s a lot of us. [Laughs.]
john
									
You said we polled family and friends. And my family all agree.
maggie
									
Well—
john
									
You ignored the friends! [Audience laughs.]
maggie
									
A lot of the mothers agreed with me.
john
									
Sure. Okay. I understand that something—
maggie
									
No data to back that up, but.
john
									
No, no. I’m just saying—some—some convention grew up—some convention of understanding grew up in the microclimate of the South Shore that is a profoundly counterintuitive— [Audience laughs.] —understanding. No offense to you yellers in the group. I think now, more than ever, however—I mean, I respect regional difference. But we [though laughter] need—we need to establish some baselines of reality that we can all agree on. [All laugh; cheers and applause from audience.]
crosstalk
									
Maggie: Don’t let him be right! John: And I have to say…
john
									
I feel… that most people would agree that the leading edge of any vehicle— [Audience laughs.] —that is moving in that direction would be the front. [Audience laughs, then erupts into cheers and applause.] The leading edge that is moving this way is the back. I’m sorry—I’m sorry. You and your—you and your various moms can call it whatever you want. But I want you to raise your kids to be part of the whole world— [Audience laughs.] —so at the very minimum, I’m going to say—and I hate to say it—teach the controversy. [Audience laughs. Jesse laughs loudly. Josh plays organ outro.]
jesse
									
Michael and Maggie! Please welcome… Chloe and Matt! [Josh plays organ intro.]
john
									
Chloe and Matt!
matt
									
Yes.
chloe
									
Yes.
john
									
Who comes to this court seeing justice?
chloe
									
I do.
john
									
It is I, Chloe! And what justice do you seek?
chloe
									
My husband here… has not ever—in his entire life—owned a cell phone.
john
									
Oh! [Loud whoop from audience, followed by some cheering.]
crosstalk
									
Matt: There—there’s some—some select— Chloe: Yes. I get that reaction a lot. You’re not married to him! [Audience laughs.]
matt
									
—select fans out there! Okay! [Laughs.]
john
									
Is it groundswell support already for Matt?
matt
									
Some. Some.
chloe
									
Yup. And I would like him to get one for the car for emergencies.
john
									
Sure. Seems perfectly reasonable.
chloe
									
Yes.
john
									
I mean, after all—what if you’re driving around and your crampons—
crosstalk
									
Matt: What—I was gonna say—if I misplaced my crampons? Yeah! John: —accidentally—yeah! Your crampons—
john
									
—stick to the accelerator and you can’t stop the car.
matt
									
Right! I’d need to order more crampons!
john
									
Yeah. And then you’d go into a ditch and you need some help.
crosstalk
									
John: What are you gonna do? That’s—wait a minute. Matt: That’s—this is true. Yeah. Chloe: We also—
john
									
Do you know—do you know how to drive?
matt
									
Yes.
john
									
Do you—you—you’re a licensed driver.
matt
									
Fully licensed. And—
john
									
Right. You accept certain forms of technology.
matt
									
Completely. Yes.
john
									
Okay.
matt
									
This is not a crusade on my part. I’m not saying nobody should own a cell phone or, y’know, it’s bad for the world.
john
									
Right! Live and let live is your feeling!
matt
									
I’m saying it’s not for me!
john
									
Why is it not for you?
matt
									
Because—being—the idea of being—
crosstalk
									
Matt: —on— John: You don’t want the government to track you? [Audience laughs.]
matt
									
On—yeah. Yeah. It’s through the black helicopters. Yeah. No. Um—I don’t—I don’t need it for my job. I don’t need it necessarily socially. I am involved with the social media and whatnot. Um, and—I don’t… um… I don’t want to be… I—I—I guess the idea—
john
									
You are involved with the social media.
matt
									
Yes.
john
									
But you don’t have a phone.
matt
									
The Book of Faces and whatnot. Yeah. So. [All laugh.]
crosstalk
									
John: Do you—do you—do you dial it up on your Compaq Presario? Jesse: Doing bits over here! Matt: [Through laughter] That’s right! Yeah. [All laugh.]
matt
									
Right into CompuServe. Yeah. No. Um—no. Um…
john
									
What do you do for a living?
matt
									
I have, uh, I’m gainfully employed and have been for 17 years. I am an accountant.
john
									
Great!
matt
									
So there’s no, like, dire need of, like, quick! I need to get hold of Matt. What’s 2+2? Let’s get— [Audience laughs.]
john
									
Right. Okay.
matt
									
Let’s get him immediately on the phone.
john
									
But you have clients!
matt
									
Yes. Yeah. And the like.
john
									
And how do they reach you?
matt
									
They--there is a phone line—
john
									
Rotary telephone?
crosstalk
									
Matt: —that exists. Yes. That’s right. Yeah. Rotary. Yeah. That’s right. Um— John: Landline? Mm-hm.
matt
									
Or— [though laughter] or, I do have email and all the rest of that stuff. So I’m not absent forms of communication.
john
									
Kristofferson the dog brings you messages from afar?
matt
									
Completely! Yeah! [Audience laughs.] Way better than Lassie! Yeah! [Laughs.]
john
									
Okay. And so you’ve just never had—is it that you’ve just never had one and you don’t see why?
matt
									
Correct. I’ve never adopted it.
john
									
Great. But—but—uh—uh—Chloe has said why she wants to feel secure that when you’re out there on the road doing your door-to-door CPA or whatever it is? [Audience laughs.]
matt
									
Well, yeah.
john
									
How much do you travel? How far does he travel, Chloe? Like—
chloe
									
Um, he works in Andover? Which is 30 miles north.
john
									
Right. Okay.
chloe
									
Our car also does not have a spare tire. [A few “Ooooh”s from audience.]
crosstalk
									
John: Oh. Oh. Chloe: Yes.
john
									
No, that’s bad.
chloe
									
Mm-hm.
john
									
Yeah.
matt
									
Mm-hm.
crosstalk
									
John: Do you have… like, AAA or do you have roadside assistance for insurance? Chloe: Yes, but how would you call that… [Audience laughs, applauds, cheers.]
chloe
									
—from the side of the road?
john
									
Matt, she makes a good case.
matt
									
Mm-hm.
john
									
Have you ever had a breakdown or a flat tire?
matt
									
Never have. My, uh—
crosstalk
									
Matt: —maintenance John: Right. Oh, so it never will happen! [Audience laughs.]
matt
									
My—yeah! Of course! Yeah. [Laughs.] In perpetuity! Y’know. My maintenance schedule is regular and comprehensive. Uh— [Audience laughs.] And—I’m not—
chloe
									
This is true. Yes. We’ve been told more than once that our car is in excellent condition from professionals.
john
									
What kind of car do you have? I mean—excuse me. What kind of Subaru do you have? [All laugh appreciatively; applause from audience.]
matt
									
Right.
chloe
									
We actually have a Hyundai Elantra.
crosstalk
									
Matt: Yes. Jesse: Ohhhhh… kay. [Audience laughs.]
john
									
You got a Subaru. Anyway. [Audience laughs.]
matt
									
Yes. So there’s that. Um—
crosstalk
									
Matt: But at any rate— John: It must’ve come—
john
									
It must’ve come with a spare tire.
chloe
									
Nope.
matt
									
No, it didn’t.
john
									
Did—you bought it used?
chloe
									
No. He—he wanted that car and, uh, he does most of the driving and I said okay.
crosstalk
									
Jesse: Does it have— John: How did you get it without the spare tire? Jesse: Yeah. Chloe: It—it came with—
matt
									
This little… kit? That’s supposed to like fix all punctures? But I’m—I’m—I’m dubious about this concept. For that.
crosstalk
									
John: Yeah. Yeah. I—yeah. And obviously because you’re dubious, you’re taking no action to— - Matt: So. I don’t—yeah.
matt
									
Oh, clearly! Yeah! [Audience laughs.] That’s right!
jesse
									
So the car—the car doesn’t have… I—I had a car for a while that didn’t have a spare tire.
matt
									
Mm.
jesse
									
And—but it had run-flat tires. And so—and a pressure sensor so it would tell you if there was a hole in your tire and you could drive a pretty fair distance.
matt
									
Yes. That’s correct. So I—I will know when an emergency is about to ensue.
jesse
									
Do you have that on the Elantra?
matt
									
Yes.
crosstalk
									
John: Run—run—what did you call it? Run flat? I’ve never heard of run-flat tires. Matt: Well, not run-flats. But I don’t work for the government or anything.
jesse
									
Yeah. Run-flat tires have like strong sidewalls so you can—you can drive—I don’t remember. 10 or 20 miles on them.
crosstalk
									
John: Oh, okay. Great. Matt: Yeah. Jesse: Yeah.
john
									
Oh. Okay. Uh—I would imagine—I mean, this is one very specific circumstance in which you could be left high and dry on the hard highways and byways and, uh, and uh, Mass pikes.
matt
									
And Massholes! Don’t forget.
crosstalk
									
John: Yes. That’s right. Matt: That’s right. Yeah. Mm-hm.
john
									
There are other—I mean, anything could happen! You know—
jesse
									
Are there those roadside telephones in Massachusetts? Uh, to use to call emergency services?
john
									
Yeah. But none of ‘em work. [Audience laughs.] No. There are. But I mean, I don’t know what roads you’re taking to get to—
matt
									
They’re in museums now. Uh—no. It’s—I—I firmly—this may be a firmly naïve belief that—
john
									
I think that that’s true.
matt
									
The concept of dot-dot-dot still holds some currency in this day and age.
john
									
Yeah. But you understand that we also—you live in a—a part of the world where… there—there might be another winter. Before too long. [Audience laughs.]
matt
									
Preferably—
crosstalk
									
Matt: Yeah. One on top of another. Well—mm-hm. Right. Mm-hm. John: I mean, I’m hoping! I’m hoping there will be a real winter again! But who knows.
john
									
Uh, that it might be, uh—if—if you were to have some—a—a—a bad accident? Uh… or be—y’know, be—by the side of the road and it’s cold out? You run out of fuel before someone comes along? This is… this is basically Mad Max world. You know that. [Audience laughs.]
matt
									
Yeah. Yeah.
chloe
									
I would also like to put on record that I’m not asking for him to get, like, the latest iPhone. I want whatever today’s equivalent of a Nokia brick is? [Audience laughs.]
john
									
Yeah! I mean, this seems like a very basic safety tool to have. And I really don’t see any reason why I should not order you to get one.
matt
									
I’m resigned to your judgment, whether that be the latest Samsung Galaxy whatever or if it’s a Jitterbug. Mm-hm. [Audience laughs.]
john
									
You’re not even bothering to put up a defense!
matt
									
Oh—because I’m sure society is not in favor of—of this—this, uh, viewpoint! [Audience laughs.] [Laughs.]
jesse
									
I think his defense, Judge Hodgman, is—in an emergency, what do you have if you do not have your principles? [All laugh. Audience applauds and cheers.]
john
									
You—yeah! You—you do. You have frostbite and bleeding out from a leg wound! [Matt laughs.]
matt
									
But principles!
john
									
I mean… but—just for the sake of argument. Argue! [Audience laughs.]
matt
									
Grr! Um… let’s see here. [All laugh.] I, um… hm… [Audience laughs.]
john
									
You have until our noses touch. [Audience laughs.] I will not back off until you start speaking. [All laugh.]
matt
									
Do you believe that, y’know—
john
									
I know—
crosstalk
									
Matt: —an invasion of—space is—is still— John: —you are—yes!
matt
									
Uh, a violation regardless of whether I can call it in on a cell phone or not. Um… [Audience laughs.] However—
john
									
Are you from New England?
matt
									
Not originally!
john
									
Oh. But you chose to live here.
matt
									
That’s right!
john
									
So this closeness must be painful for you.
matt
									
It’s— [Audience laughs.] It’s—
crosstalk
									
Chloe: He’s—he— Matt: It’s unusual. John: Where—
john
									
Where are you from originally?
matt
									
Originally from Indiana.
john
									
Indiana. [A few cheers from the audience.]
matt
									
Mm-hm. That’s right. Mm-hm.
john
									
That’s—that—that’s—those are wide-open spaces.
matt
									
Correct. Mm-hm.
john
									
Alright. So you’re talking so I’m backing off.
matt
									
That’s right. And I will acknowledge in the—
john
									
It may be—I’m going to offer you an argument since you don’t care to make one yourself.
matt
									
No. That’s—that’s fine. That’s—
john
									
Which is that—Chloe says that Andover’s 30 miles away. To a person from Indiana, that is next door.
matt
									
That is practically true. [Audience laughs.]
john
									
It does not feel—this is a—not feel like a place where you would be really lost in a wilderness, unable to hail someone down.
matt
									
Practically true.
john
									
And the likelihood of that person being a serial killer is maybe only 30%. [Audience laughs.]
chloe
									
He also goes on fairly long road trips at least once a year without me!
john
									
[In a warning, sing-song voice] Here I come back!
john
									
Where do you go on road trips?
matt
									
Uh, back home. To—
john
									
Back home to Indiana.
matt
									
That’s right. So.
john
									
And you don’t—and you don’t have a GPS or anything. You know the road—
crosstalk
									
Matt: I do have GPS. That’s, uh, that’s— [Laughs.] John: Alright. There we go. [Laughs.] [Audience laughs.]
john
									
Here’s the thing, Matt, that really—I mean, I just don’t get the resistance. Because you—you have your Compaq Presario. You have a sweet digital watch. You, uh, you have a Hyundai Elantra. Uh, you have a—you’re—you’re willing to use a GPS. You’re not anti-technology. You’re being tracked already ‘cause of the satellite.
matt
									
Undoubtedly.
john
									
Right. So—why not just throw—for emergency’s sake—a charged flip phone into the center console of the car just in case something should happen? Are you a survivalist?
matt
									
Uh, I have no bunker that I’m aware of. [Audience laughs.] That is stocked with anything.
john
									
How does it make you feel when your husband’s on the road and you can’t reach him?
chloe
									
Um… I just pray that I’m not a widow? [Mix of shocked, horrified, and sympathetic sounds. Then audience begins to laugh.] Yeah.
john
									
How does that make you feel, Matt?
matt
									
Mm. Everything about solid driving records kind of wilts in comparison.
john
									
Yeah!
matt
									
Putting it that way. So. Mm-hm.
john
									
Because past performance isn’t guarantee of future performance! Come on! You work in finances! [Audience laughs; applauds.]
matt
									
It’s a fair argument. Yes.
john
									
You should get—here’s what you need to get.
matt
									
Okay.
john
									
You should get a spare tire. [Audience laughs.] You should get a safety blanket. A reflective blanket.
matt
									
Yeah.
john
									
Put it in the back of your car and a first aid kit.
chloe
									
That’s already there.
matt
									
First aid is, yeah.
crosstalk
									
John: Yeah. The safety blanket isn’t the first aid—yeah. Right. Matt: Safety blanket—yeah. Mm-hm. Mm-hm.
john
									
Well—yeah! So good. Good job. You’re almost there. [Audience laughs.] You get a portable tire inflator. $100 on any internet, uh, retailer.
matt
									
Right.
john
									
Very valuable to have. Uh, get, um, a flashlight.
matt
									
Mm-hm.
john
									
A crossbow. [All laugh uproariously.]
crosstalk
									
Chloe: He’s quite the indoor cat. Matt: [Through laughter] Thank you.
chloe
									
I don’t think he could do that. [Laughs.]
john
									
Look.
matt
									
Do I need—
john
									
I’m not saying you have to use it? But brandish it. [All laugh.]
crosstalk
									
Matt: Yeah. Do I need camouflage as well? [Laughs.] John: You have to get—
jesse
									
You don’t have to go to the sporting good store and get a crossbow like that. It—you can go somewhere you’re already going—the Renaissance Faire! [All laugh; audience applauds.]
john
									
Yeah. Maybe grab a halberd as well!
crosstalk
									
Jesse: Yeah. Matt: [Through laughter] Yeah. That’s right.
jesse
									
And a falcon.
matt
									
A flail. Yeah.
john
									
And—an unkillable, dumb flip phone that will charge in your car and be there in case of emergency. Just in case something should happen. A deer could canter out into the road!
matt
									
Mm-hm.
john
									
And you could smash into it and your car would be totaled! And then you’d wanna call Chloe and say—
matt
									
Mm-hm.
john
									
It’s okay. I just killed a deer. [Audience laughs.] This is the sound of a gavel! [Sound of a gavel.]
crosstalk
									
Jesse: Chloe and Matt! Chloe: Thank you! John: [Inaudible] of justice! [Josh plays a final organ flourish.] [Gavel sound.]
jesse
									
Thank you to all of the Judge John Hodgman litigants who shared their cases with us at the Wilbur Theatre in Boston. And our thanks to the staff of the theatre, who were kind and gracious hosts.
john
									
As always!
jesse
									
Yes, indeed. Our thanks to Tom McCaffrey for naming the case “Knit, or Get Off the Pod!” This week’s episode recorded by Matthew Barnart, edited by Jennifer Marmor, and produced by the ever-capable Ms. Hannah Smith. Thank you, Hannah! You can follow us on Instagram @JudgeJohnHodgman and on Twitter. Uh, @Hodgman and @JesseThorn. Submit your cases at MaximumFun.org/jjho or email Hodgman@MaximumFun.org. No case… is too small! We’ll talk to you next time! On the Judge John Hodgman podcast. [Gavel bangs.]
speaker 1
									
MaximumFun.org.
speaker 2
									
Comedy and culture.
speaker 3
									
Artist owned—
speaker 4
									
—Audience supported.
About the show

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