Transcript
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under the Stairs. [Music continues under the dialogue, then fades out.]
oliver wang
Hello! I’m Oliver Wang.
morgan rhodes
And I’m Morgan Rhodes. You’re listening to Heat Rocks.
oliver
1986, the number, another summer.
morgan
Get doooown.
oliver
Sound of the funky drummer! In that fateful summer of ’86, Polydor Records released a new anthology by the minister of heavy funk: James Brown. It was the latest in a long line of JB related compilations that Polydor had been packaging together since the 1970s.
morgan
This one was different, though. It wasn’t chronological. It wasn’t a conventional greatest hits album. It was a greatest heat album. Nine songs of James Brown and The JBs at their funkiest.
oliver
What came first? Hip-hop producers mining the James Brown catalogue—which spurred Polydor to hook this anthology up?
morgan
Or did this set off a gold rush to mine the James Brown catalogue?
oliver
Either way, for the rest of the decade, producers the world over, armed with still-primitive sampling technology began to loop the breaks, beats, screams, and shouts off this album.
morgan
An entire mini-generation of hip-hop heat rocks might not have existed without it. And for that reason, we begin a special four-part Heat Rocks series on samples, with arguably the release that sparked the whole movement: James Brown’s In the Jungle Groove.
music
“Funky Drummer” from the album In the Jungle Groove by James Brown. [Fades into the next track.]
music
“Where I’m From” from the album Reachin' (A New Refutation of Time and Space) by Digable Planets. Boogie jive and rap is life where I'm from Where I'm from, Ahmed play with Izzy where I'm from Where I'm from… [Fades into the next track.]
music
“Fuck Tha Police” from the album Straight Outta Compton by N.W.A. MC Ren, will you please give your testimony To the jury about this fucked up incident [Fades into the next track.]
music
“Fight the Power” from the album It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back by Public Enemy. Fight the power Fight the power [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
music
“Funky Drummer” from the album In the Jungle Groove by James Brown. Ain’t it funky A one, two, three, four! [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
The idea behind this series is that every quarter, Morgan and I will tape an episode of just her and I talking about key albums for both original samples as well as the albums that help make sampling into an art. Morgan, this was your brainchild. So, why did you wanna do a dedicated—a set of dedicated episodes about samples?
morgan
I think one, to shine a light on artists and songs that birthed some of these other songs. I wanted to sort of shine a light on beatmakers and DJs and their ingenuity and their creativity. And sort of to answer the question, musically speaking, which came first, the chicken or the egg? Were the songs that were sampled actually greater than the songs that sampled them? [Oliver hums thoughtfully.] And I think we will decide this over the series. And I expect some pushback on that, but just keep us in prayer, ‘cause we’re gonna go deep on this thing.
oliver
[Laughs.] I know for me—I mean, obviously samples are very close to my heart. I just wanna make sure that when we tackle these things, it’s to highlight both the relevance of sampling to modern music making and really recognize those artists whose contributions have shaped sampling, both as the source material—as we’ll talk about today, with James Brown and the JBs—but also on the other side of it, in terms of the finished product. To your point, Morgan, certainly talking about the key producers and beatmakers who have, as I said earlier, turned sampling into an art form over the last 30+ years. [Morgan agrees.] I don’t know about you, but I feel like in order to kick this off, you kind of have to start with James Brown and In the Jungle Groove. And certainly, sampling predates this album and artists were sampling from other folks besides JB, but when this album came out—you know, if you look at the landscape of samples in ’86, ’87, ’88—basically, the whole rest of the ’80s—you can trace dozens if not hundreds of songs whose lineages all lead back to this one album. It was like Brown was everywhere in hip-hop in the mid-late ’80s.
morgan
Yep. I mean, it’s interesting that this album was recorded between ’69 and ’71 and didn’t come out until 1986. But when I think about 1986 and the years that you’re talking about, I can’t remember one hip-hop song that I loved and danced to that didn’t start with a sample or have a break in the middle that was sample-heavy that was not James Brown. I just can’t remember. And as we were—before the episode started, I was talking to Christian about sort of assuaging my guilt as a music supervisor for trying to chase these songs that have samples and then just being really pissed because we can’t clear them. But more often than not, that sample is James Brown that we can’t clear. It’s expensive and it’s hard to trace. And then it puts—it exposes the DJ that decided to sample this. And so, it’s like it’s a moral thing. Do I put them on blast, because they probably didn’t clear it at the beginning? But to me, 1986 and this album reminds me of nine minutes that changed everybody’s lives, and that’s the funky drum break. That changed so many songs, changed the game, and I’m hoping that Clyde Stubblefield got his due.
oliver
Which I think it’s—as we know, historically, he did not. [Morgan confirms.] Because you can copyright certain things. You know, certain things you can get writing credit for, publishing credit for. Drum breaks are not one of them, and this has been a biiig, big issue over the years, especially because so many key studio drummers were never able to get copyright clearance. Or not—copyright credit on drum brakes, because that’s not considered to be unique enough, artistically. Very different from melodies and harmonies, which can be. And as a result, a lot of these key drummers have never gotten paid for the—you know—thousands of samples that have been of their work.
morgan
Thousands. And it’s worth mentioning that this album has been sampled over 1500 times. And it’s unfortunate that the drum break we’re talking about has been referred to or been reduced “a drum break” and not “the drum break”. It is the drum break, because it’s the genesis of so many other things.
oliver
One thing that I think we should clear up—this album was—this was an anthology. So, there was never like an original recording of it. It’s the songs on here, most of them were recorded at various sessions between—I don’t know. The earliest might have been as early as ’69. I’m trying to remember when It’s a New Day was taped. But certainly, it captures a lot of the James Brown, Bootsy Collins era collaboration, which was only about I think a year total.
morgan
Yeah, ‘cause somebody got hot, right? Was it Bootsy that just got hot in the session and was like I’m out?
oliver
I think it’s more that James Brown lost a lot of musicians. And then they would come back, and then he would lose them again. [Morgan laughs.] Because he was a difficult man, as a boss. But yeah.
morgan
To put it mildly.
oliver
Yeah. Yeah. Bootsy had other—he certainly had—him and his brother, Catfish Collins, had other pastures to explore. [Morgan agrees.] But in that year, you get a lot of the heat rocks that are on this particular album. We should talk just a little bit about the history behind this particular compilation. Because up until this point, Polydor had already been putting out a series of James Brown-related anthologies throughout the entirety of the beginning of the early ’80s. Very popular ones. A lot of them were organized chronologically. So, it would be James Brown—you know—’67-’69. And then ’70-’72. In the Jungle Groove was different. It was not bound to a specific chronology, even though—to your point earlier—yes, it was using songs that were mostly recorded within a particular timeframe. But it wasn’t marketed that way. And what else made this different was it had previously unreleased songs, which we can get into later on. It had songs that were reedited, “Funky Drummer” being the most obvious, because they just isolate the break. But they also had, for example, the version of “Give It Up or Turn It Loose”, which originally appeared on the Sex Machine album, which was supposedly a live album, but if I recall, they actually overdubbed the crowd noise. And so, what they did on the In the Jungle Groove version of it, they just took all of the crowd noise out and just isolated it to the song itself, which is not a version that had ever been presented before. There were some songs on here that had never been on an LP before. “Funky Drummer”, for example, was a seven-inch. It was never on a previous James Brown album. So, this was very much, as we were joking—it’s a greatest heat compilation that wasn’t necessarily like number one hits, but it was designed around like what were his—him and the JB’s best funky cuts from this era. And I reached out to one of the people who helped to compile this, Barry Feldman. Who, along with Cliff White—who worked in Polydor UK—they were two of the principle people behind this comp. And one of the things I asked him was did you all put this out with the intention that you thought it might get sampled? And I didn’t think that would be the answer, because in ’86, there just was not that much sampling happening. And more to the point, no one was paying for sampling.
morgan
No one was paying.
oliver
So, if you were the label, why would you put it out in terms—like, yeah, please, use our stuff but don’t clear it with us because you’re not legally obligated. And what Barry wrote back to tell me—I’m gonna paraphrase his response, but that was definitely not their intention. They had no idea that was gonna happen. It was more that they’d been putting together these comps. Cliff White in the UK wanted to do something a little bit different, give it a little bit more of a curatorial focus by looking at these like hyper, hyper funk tracks from this era. And then, Barry was like, “That’s sounds great. Let’s go ahead. This makes sense to me.” And then they put it out like that. So, it was really an accident of history that it became this singular source of so many important samples, especially in hip-hop, of that era. So, now, were you messing with this album back in the ’80s? When did you first discover In the Jungle Groove?
morgan
Um, probably—I would say about 10 to 15 years ago. I’m not huge James Brown devotee. And I say that knowing that the judgement will surely come. [Oliver chuckles.] But I didn’t—I was attracted to the hits of James Brown, so I didn’t really go to deep. And then I got deeper into it around the time of Selma. I couldn’t use it—yeah. I couldn’t use any of the stuff, unfortunately. But I started getting into it, then. And then, later on, when I was—we talked about Voodoo on another episode, but I was sort of trying to trace the similarities between the production on D'Angelo’s Voodoo and some of the songs on here. And we can talk a little bit about that later, because it’s close.
oliver
Yeah. I was gonna spin back real quick, too. I think that part of the reason why it’s very difficult to clear James Brown songs now is because when people were sampling this in the mid/late ’80s, no one was clearing anything!
morgan
Nobody was clearing anything. It’s the bane of my whole existence! [Oliver laughs.] It’s like come on! I get it. But as we were saying, unfortunately, some of the artists who people don’t know won’t know them, because they weren’t as famous as what was sampled from them. And James Brown—and the drum break we’re talking about is—will go down in history, but it makes it so hard to clear that stuff.
oliver
Right. Well, we keep talking about this. Let’s actually listen to it. And let’s listen to the reprise version of “Funky Drummer”, which just isolates the drum track itself.
music
“Funky Drummer” from the album In the Jungle Groove by James Brown. Ain’t it funky [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
I mean, damn! When I hear that, I immediately think about how many different places—not just how many different songs is this featured on, but how many places in songs? In hip-hop, it usually started—someone would start talking over this drum break. Or it came in the middle to breakdown the song. It’s just famous. I mean, like I said, it’s the nine minutes that changed everyone’s lives. The thing that comes to my mind immediately is Nas’s “Get Down”.
music
“Get Down” from the album God’s Son by Nas. … now they chilling They had the coke game something crazy Sold music out the trunk of their car, that shit amazed me Put me onto her-on blunts, sherm or something Took a puff, what the fuck? [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
To me, it just changed the tone of the song. It was unexpected. The first time I heard it; it was unexpected last night. As I listened to it again, I was like, “Wow, this gang weird.” But again, the point that I was saying either “Funky Drummer” started off a song or came in the middle to break and change the course of the song. And that’s a credit to this drum break. For however we wanna reduce it, it [laughs]—there’s something about it that’s so prolific that it’s a game changer, and it’s a song changer. And that was one of my favorite uses of it.
oliver
Right. I think a close second, if not maybe even first, would be The Incredible Bongo Band’s “Apache” break. [Morgan agrees.] Which Nas of course uses in “Made You Look”.
music
“Apache” from the album Bongo Rock by Incredible Bongo Band. [Fades into next track.]
music
“Made You Look” from the album God’s Son by Nas. Now let's get it all in perspective For all y'all enjoyment, a song y'all can step with [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
And I think it’s because these samples have been used sooo many times, they have become signature moves in and of themselves. In other words, the deployment of it is not simply this sounds good. It’s “I’m showing you that I know my history by using ‘The Funky Drummer’, by using ‘Apache’.” Right? [Morgan agrees.] Along those lines, one of my favorite uses of this song—which is not as prominent as the example that you used with Nas, but it comes from 1992, in Masta Ace Incorporated’s “Boom Bashin’” from the Slaughtahouse LP.
music
“Boom Bashin’” from the album Slaughtahouse by Masta Ace. I'm slick and I'm quick, up my sleeve is a trick Hey! So what? I use “Funky Drummer”, suck my dick. I'm still thick, with murderous beats [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
And so, you know, by ’92—you know, he was aware, yes, a lot of people have used it. Maybe people think it’s played out. But fuck it, I’ma use it anyways! What are you gonna do about it?
morgan
What are you gonna do?
oliver
I just love the meta-ness of that, that he’s just—he already anticipates the criticism, and he’s like, “I don’t care. Fuck you.”
morgan
[Laughs.] The swag in that. Like, whatever.
oliver
Right. The other example—one of my other favorite uses of “Funky Drummer” is also not from a hip-hop song. It’s from George Michael’s “Waiting for That Day” from the “Freedom! ‘90” album. And I have to say, just in terms of the engineering on this, they make this drum break so loud, so clean. This thing claps.
music
“Waiting for That Day” from the album Listen Without Prejudice Vol. 1 by George Michael. [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
And the thing is, when I first heard this song, back in 1990, I did not know about the “Funky Drummer”. I mean, sampling was still relatively new to me at that age. But I knew, damn, that George Michael song sounds pretty funky! And it wasn’t until years later I realized, oh, it’s because he’s using “Funky Drummer”. And I mean, it really speaks to both the ubiquity—not just of the sample, but of just sampling by that point. Hip-hop had changed the game to the extent where pop artists—it doesn’t matter what the genre was. I’m sure you could probably find country songs that [inaudible]. [Morgan laughs.] But certainly, pop artists—you know, George Michael and otherwise—were, you know, listening to what was happening with hip-hop and incorporating a lot of those aesthetics into their own music. And I think “Waiting For That Day”’s use of “Funky Drummer”’s a great example of that. Let me ask this. What is it about the “Funky Drummer”—the drum break in particular—that you think is so memorable?
morgan
This is a lazy adjective.
oliver
It’s funky? [Chuckles.]
morgan
I was gonna rhyme with that. It’s chunky. It’s thick. [Oliver hums in agreement.] There’s just something about it that’s so full, in and of itself. That it’s just so full and rich, even in its simplicity. Every time I go to a show and they throw the drummer, it’s like the drummer has been waiting for this moment all their life. And they hit you with a flurry of drum gymnastics. And at the end you’re like, “Damn!” This isn’t that. It’s dope without being overly ambitious. And there’s an echo to it that I just can’t explain. And it’s enough by itself. It had to be for it to have been used as many times as it’s used in the many variations that it’s used. And that it accomplishes a lot of things. It’s a good closer. It’s a good opening point. And it exists in a way that it can break up a song into a completely different place, like we saw with the Nas thing. [Oliver agrees.] And for whatever those qualities are about this, to do it in something that’s so simple—it is chunky. That’s what I’ll say. It’s chunky.
oliver
For me, with “Funky Drummer”, it is different than I think a lot of other classic breakbeats from this era. So, if you compare this, for example, against let’s say the Skull Snaps beat.
music
“It’s a New Day” from the album Skull Snaps by Skull Snaps. [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
That’s more straightforward. [Morgan agrees.] There’s a lot of open space in the pocket, with it. I mean, obviously that snare and the kicks are in your face, which is a big reason why—
morgan
That’s what I was gonna say, yeah.
oliver
—people gravitated to it. But with “Funky Drummer”, it’s the—to your point, it’s the intricateness. It’s the thickness. It’s not just the thickness of the sound; it’s all of the layers and textures of polyrhythm that are happening there. But to be honest, from a very practical level, the fact that the album simply isolated the drum track and turned it into a song itself—especially for people just learning to sample, you didn’t have to pluck it out of the middle of the song. It was just right there done for you, and I think that’s a big reason too. [Morgan agrees.] They made it easy for people to mess with it, in that sense.
morgan
Shame on them. [Oliver laughs.] Because now it’s been sampled a gazillion times, but it also—to name a song “Funky Drummer” lets you know that this thing gon’ be funky, as James Brown loved to say. When I think of famous drum breaks, usually I go to the “Funky Drummer” first, but a lot of people do “Amen Brother”, The Winstons, when they’re talking about dance music—as it being the start of techno on a lot of breakbeat stuff. [Oliver agrees.]
music
“Amen Brother” from the album Color Him Father by The Winstons. [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
That’s different. Not saying that it isn’t as dope or it isn’t as amazing, but when I think of classic—my number one would be “Funky Drummer” over “Amen Brother”. You?
oliver
I’m the same way. I’ve never thought the “Amen Brother” break was very—was that great as a break. I mean, it’s not bad.
morgan
It’s not terrible.
oliver
And if you understand the ways in which it became, I think, much more popular with really high tempo, jungle and drum and bass music it makes sense. [Morgan agrees.] But given the—you know—hip-hop speed is—especially in the era that we’re talking about of the ’80s and ’90s, that was—you know—around 100bpm or slower. “Amen” break is too fast for that. You would have to slow it down, but then that changes the character of it if you have to pitch it down that much. And so, “Funky Drummer” doesn’t have that problem, because its tempo works well with what the pace of hip-hop was already, at that point.
morgan
Right. I understand giving the credit to The Winstons and that drum break as the start of a genre, as the—behind the genre. And I’m not taking anything away from it, and I love dance music. So, obviously, I get it. But I think the “Funky Drummer”—it didn’t give birth to a genre, but it certainly helped to carry a genre, which is because hip-hop is drawn from it so much. It deserves to be credited, to me, as number one.
oliver
Yeah. We will be back in just a minute with more of our special sample discussion around James Brown’s 1986 anthology, In the Jungle Groove. Keep it locked.
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under the Stairs.
promo
Music: Upbeat piano. J. Keith van Straaten: Hey everybody! This is J. Keith van Straaten, host of Go Fact Yourself, a live gameshow here on the Maximum Fun network. Make sure to listen to our next episode of Go Fact Yourself with guest Kurt Braunohler. Kurt Braunohler: I did a show in Flagstaff, Arizona, where the venue just didn’t list that the show existed. [The hosts and audience laugh.] Helen Hong: Amazing. Kurt: Uuuh, and I—and it is the smallest crowd that I’ve ever done a full hour of standup for. It was [chuckling] three people. Speaker: Oh my god! J. Keith: And Sara Schaefer! Sara Schaefer: Yes, I love crafting. It’s my hobby. I have a craft nook in my home. Helen: You do?! Sara: I do. It has all of my supplies displayed in an adorable manner. Helen: Wow! [Laughter and applause.] Sara: Yes! That—yes! Applause! J. Keith: Applause for a nook! [End of clip.] J. Keith: That’s Go Fact Yourself, here at MaximumFun.org or wherever you get podcasts. [Music ends.]
promo
Music: “War” by Norman Whitfield and Barrett Strong with lead vocals by Edwin Starr plays in the background. Ben Harrison: Not all heroes wear capes! Some heroes watch war movies and then review them. [Adam Pranica laughs, then so does Ben.] John Roderick: Friendly Fire is a war movie podcast for people who don't necessarily like war movies, although it does not exclude people who love war movies. Adam: I'll have you know that I am wearing a cape; my cape is just made of sound-deadening material from an audio recording studio. Ben: [Laughs.] It's a really great show. John's daughter doesn't like it because we sometimes say swear words on it, but almost everybody else that has ever listened to it has enjoyed the program. Adam: Download and subscribe to Friendly Fire wherever you get your podcasts. Ben: To the victor go the spoiler alerts. Music: War! Huh! [Music ends.]
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under the Stairs.
morgan
And we are back on Heat Rocks with a special edition episode about sampling, and more specifically James Brown’s 1986 In the Jungle Groove.
oliver
So, we both acknowledge that “Funky Drummer”—whether you’re talking about the original, full-length version of it or the reprise, which just isolates the drum track—that is obviously I think the centerpiece of the album, in terms of how people have approached it, sampling-wise. Is it, to you, though? Is it the fire track of the nine songs that are on here?
morgan
Yes!
oliver
Okay! [Morgan chuckles.] Okay.
morgan
It is the fire track. It’s the fire track because of what it—of the other fire tracks that it reminds me of. I’ve mentioned Nas, “The Get Down”. I didn’t mention Public Enemy, “Bring the Noise”. And because that’s one of my favorite Public Enemy tracks, and it will always be—it will always be, to me, synonymous with this sample. That, to me, is the one that just—that’s the head-nodder for me.
music
“Bring the Noise” from the album Attack of the Killer B’s by Public Enemy. Never badder than bad cause the brother is madder than mad At the fact that's corrupt as a senator Soul on a roll, but you treat it like soap on a rope Cause the beats and the lines are so dope [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
Do you like the reprise, where it—again—just isolated drum track? Or do you actually like the full—the full-length version of “Funky Drummer”.
morgan
Both. I like the full-length because it’s a little bit more fleshed out. And how long can you just listen to drums before you’re just like, “Well, this was cool.”
oliver
Well…
morgan
“But can we move on?” [Oliver chuckles.] But it is funky, and it is a head-nodder. So, I like both. But I—when I think of this album, I think of “Funky Drummer” first, before I think of anything else.
oliver
Yeah. Yeah. I think what I—when I first heard this album—and it wasn’t around ’86. I think I probably would have discovered it more like, you know, ’93/’94. But I might have known the drum break. I didn’t know what the full, actual song “Funky Drummer” sounded like. [Morgan affirms.] And if you listen to it, especially at the beginning, it’s not a song that sets you up with the expectation that that break’s going to come.
music
“Funky Drummer” from the album In the Jungle Groove by James Brown. Pull back the cover Shades! [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
Like, it’s so laid back! It’s cool! It’s jazzy!
morgan
Yeah! Like you’d hear in a lounge, Rat Pack.
oliver
And you would just never expect for this to drop in the way that it does. [Morgan agrees.]
music
“Funky Drummer” from the album In the Jungle Groove by James Brown. It's in my shirt I'm about to blow I'm about to blow One, two, three, four Get it [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
Mmmm!
oliver
Yeah, you don’t anticipate it. [Morgan confirms.] I mean, you know something’s coming. ‘Cause if you know enough about James Brown and The JBs, you know they’re gonna throw something in at the bridge, but you’re not expecting this.
morgan
That. No. Especially based on the start of the song. You’re like, “Okay! Alright!”
oliver
So, my fire track is—and without taking anything away from the importance and the influence and the excellence that is “Funky Drummer”, but this song to me is the embodiment of pure fire. And that is the—the cleaned-up version, the crowd noiseless version of “Give It Up or Turn It A Loose”. And just from the very beginning, when the full band comes in. Oh my god, it’s so heavy!
music
“Give It Up or Turn It A Loose” from the album In the Jungle Groove by James Brown. Huh, huh! Go! Go, go [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
Once again, Clyde Stubblefield on the drums.
morgan
Coming through!
oliver
Bootsy Collins on the bass. And that combination produces my single favorite moment on this album, which comes during the “clap your hands, stomp your feet” break or bridge, which is about close to five minutes deep into this song.
music
“Give It Up or Turn It A Loose” from the album In the Jungle Groove by James Brown. Clap your hands Stomp your feet Clap your hands Stomp your feet Clyde! Huh! [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
How come more people don’t call out their band mates to just drop in?
morgan
Because of beef. [Oliver laughs.] That’s it. By the time they get to recording stuff, it’s gone down. They’re like, “I ain’t calling you out. Whatever. Just play.” That’s my assessment of what’s going on.
oliver
Every—I still get chills. Because I know it’s coming. And something about that bridge—I’ve never actually analyzed it, in terms of how many bars in. ‘Cause I feel like when he shouts out Clyde, it always surprises me. It catches me—I think it’s gonna come sooner or it’s gonna come later. But every time we just hear him shout that name out, and you know in that instant, that drum break is coming back in.
morgan
You know.
oliver
And then, two bars later.
music
“Give It Up or Turn It A Loose” from the album In the Jungle Groove by James Brown. Come on! [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
I mean, this bridge is just—oh my god, it’s so amazing.
morgan
But what’s the song on here where he starts out by saying, “Nat, are we alright?”
oliver
I think that might be the beginning of “Talkin’ Loud and Sayin’ Nothing”.
music
“Talkin’ Loud and Sayin’ Nothing” from the album In the Jungle Groove by James Brown. James Brown: How it sound, Ron? Bobby Byrd: Pretty good James: Okay One, one, two, three, hit it! You're like a dull knife, just ain't cutting [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
That’s my favorite moment on the album, for the same reasons—because it’s very—you know, it’s unpolished. And I don’t know who Ron is. Who is Ron? [They laugh.]
oliver
We gotta—we gotta scrub through the credits to figure that out. But—
morgan
That’s one of my favorite moments, where he’s like, “Are we okay, Ron?” And then he just starts out and it just dissolves into funkiness from the Boot. So. Shoutout to the conversation between James Brown and his players. For what we’ve been saying heretofore, James was a difficult person to work for. But obviously, he had some sort of rapport with his session musicians, because they had a good conversation.
oliver
To bring this back to “Give It Up or Turn It A Loose”, I just wanna highlight a few of my favorite samples. I’m gonna start with one that is—it’s really obscure. In fact, I don’t assume that most of our listeners would have ever heard this before. Because it’s a random rap—fast-rap single from 1991 from New Jersey that was never a national hit. But it’s by a group called Keek & Qagee. And it’s a song called “Don’t Say It, Sing It”. And really, all it is is just the drum break from that James Brown song.
music
“Don’t Say It, Sing It” by Keek & Qagee. Give me a rhythm All clap and don’t lag back The [inaudible] Never knew I had Check the line, if it rhymes a crime Then scoop me, put me back in the old hoop We gonna win it this time and excel Whatever you perform… [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
Let me correct myself. I said it was only the drum break. It’s the drum break with the Bootsy Collins bassline. But that’s all it really is. It’s just that part of the song. And they really juice it up, and it sounds amazing. I wanna give an honorary mention to Gang Starr’s “Gotch U”, which is not one of my favorite Gang Starr songs. It’s from their very first LP, No More Mr. Nice Guy, but what I like about it is that on this song, they clearly are using not just “Give It Up or Turn It A Loose”, but they’re also using the guitar from another song off of In the Jungle Groove, which is “Get Up, Get Into It, Get Involved”. And it just shows you the ways in which rap artists of this era were mining this album so, so heavy. [Morgan agrees.]
music
“Get up, Get Into It, Get Involved” from the album In the Jungle Groove by James Brown. Clap your hands Stomp your feet Clyde! Huh! Hit me! Huh! Huh! Hit me! Huh! Hit me! [Fades into next track.]
music
“Gotch U” from the album No More Mr. Nice Guy by Gang Starr. Convention that comes from, combining sums from Equations or phrases, 'cause I begun some Exploratory digging, I'm thinking big and I'm taking all your words, 'cause your sight is blurred [Fades into next track.]
morgan
Not probably the most prolific use of the sample, but I’m gonna say it. And again, I’m coming into this episode knowing that there will be blowback. But CeCe Peniston and a song that made her famous, called “Finally”. Not life changing, but it changed me.
music
“Finally” from the album Finally by Cece Peniston. [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
Again, not life changing, and surprising, and I think this remix was Armand Van Helden. But again, James Brown on this album did not—and the samples on this album were not exclusively hip-hop samples. They were also dance music samples. “Get Up, Get Into It, Get Involved” is one of my favorite jams on this album, and probably one of my favorite uses of this was Full Force and their song “Ain’t My Type of Hype”.
music
“Ain’t My Type of Hype” from the album Smoove by Full Force. Full Force! Hype, hype… [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
You really like new jack swing a lot better than I did. [Morgan laughs.] Real talk. [Laughs.]
morgan
I knew this day would come. I do like new jack swing!
oliver
You do!
morgan
Full Force, of course. What a band. Had some of the best Jheri curls that I knew, with the exception of my cousin, Kelly. Kelly had a California curl. But that album, Smoove, one of my favorites. “Ain’t My Type of Hype”, and of course they sampled “Get Up, Get Into It, Get Involved”.
oliver
Morgan, I’m glad you brought up “Get Up, Get Into It, Get Involved”, because every time I listen to this song, what really comes to mind is how it is one of the most, to me, terrifying songs in the James Brown catalogue. And I think part of it is—I mean, the rhythm is obviously really, really aggressive. It’s driving. But it’s the guitar work. And I don’t know—there’s two credited guitarists. There’s Catfish Collins, who was Bootsy Collins’s brother. And then Hearlon Martin. And I don’t know if one or both of them are playing on here. But it is so dissonant. It screeches in a particular way. I can’t imagine when this—and I believe this was another one of those single, lonely songs. It only came out on a 45, back in its original release, I think, in 1970. But it’s hard for me to listen to this and not think about the context of, let’s say, the Vietnam War. And thinking—and I’m spinning back to something that Vernon Reid had said during our Heat Rocks episode about Jimi Hendrix and Band of Gypsys and the song “Machine Gun”, where Hendrix wanted the song to sound like war. And something about “Get Up, Get Into It, Get Involved”—it has that same kind of controlled chaos to it. And it is very much, I think, unlike a lot of the other songs on this same album—even though the personnel’s the same. And yes, it’s all really funky. But the edge that that electric guitar lends on it, to me there is just something completely terrifying. And that—I mean, I just kind of imagine like—imagine if you were a conservative, White southerner in 1970. Like, Jim Crow’s on its way out. Like, you’re got Black power on the surge, and this comes out? Like, this must be like the sound of your nightmare.
morgan
[Laughs.] This is racial apocalypse, and James Brown is screaming at the top of this track, [whisper yelling] “Get up! Get involved!” It’s got to be.
music
“Get Up, Get Into It, Get Involved” from the album In the Jungle Groove by James Brown. (Get on up) Everybody right there (Get into it) Everybody over here (Get involved) (Get involved) (Get involved) Wait, wait Do it, raise your hand Do it with the other [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
Do you have a slow burner off of this album?
morgan
I’m only gonna call it a slow burner because we haven’t talked about it. And that’s “Hot Pants”.
music
“Hot Pants (She Got to Use What She Got to Get What She Wants)” from the album In the Jungle Groove by James Brown. That's where it's at, that's where it's at Hot pants, smoking [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
This is my favorite track on here, vocally, for James Brown.
oliver
Oooh, interesting.
morgan
To me, he sings more on here than anything else. It’s obviously not the longest song, but it’s the second longest song on here. And it’s the one that gets—that I get a chance to hear him sing. Because although you could probably break this album down to three things—horns, drums, and grunts—I love James Brown’s voice and I love his vocals on “Hot Pants”. So that, for me, would be the slow burner and the sleeper, because we’re so focused on the instrumentation and the drum breaks that I think this one gets lost in the shuffle.
music
“Hot Pants” from the album In the Jungle Groove by James Brown. … it just won't quit My temperature going up, up, up, up, up, huh 'Bout to give me a fit, the feeling I'm getting just won't quit Hot pants [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
For me, the slow burner would be—and partly it’s because it’s, I think, the one fully unreleased song. In other words, had never come out in any format, which is “I Got to Move”. And it’s a long one! Another long one. I think this is like another eight, nine-minute song. But there’s a breakdown that comes about four minutes in that is just perfection.
music
“I Got to Move” from the album In the Jungle Groove by James Brown. Get on, yeah! Come on, huh! Uh! [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
Number one, any time James Brown warns you that he’s about to take you to the bridge or he wants to walk it out, like don’t go anywhere. [Morgan chuckles.] Crank that volume knob to 11 and just wait for it, ‘cause something good is about to happen. “I Got to Move” is certainly no exception to that. And you know, partly why I also wanted to pluck this one out is because when we talk about digging in the crates—which is a term that of course, back in the ’90s, was about looking through old records to find samples—right? That phrase was introduced I think to most of us if not all of us through Showbiz & the A.G. featuring Diamond D’s song “Diggin’ in the Crates”, which came out in the “Party Groove”, “Soul Clap” EP from I think ’91 or latest, ’92. I think it was ’91. And they don’t—they build a lot of that song off of that specific breakdown on “I Got to Move”. So, digging in the crates as a phrase owes part of its existence to James Brown, In the Jungle Groove, was we’ve been talking about.
music
“I Got to Move” from the album In the Jungle Groove by James Brown. Come on! Come on! [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
music
“Diggin’ in the Crates” from the album D.I.T.C. – The Remix Project by Showbiz & the A.G.. Yo, praise the Lord for Showbiz My partner with the beats with the Nikes on his feet [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
It’s also sampled by Cypress Hill on “How I Could Just Kill a Man”, the blunted remix. And it shows up at the 2:05 mark.
music
“How I Could Just Kill a Man (Blunted Remix)” from the album Cypress Hill by Cypress Hill. How I could just kill a man Here is something you can't understand How I could just kill a man Clap your hands Stomp your feet [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
One of the strangest drop-ins—‘cause he’s talking about killing a man, and then James Brown is like “Clap your hands! Stomp your feet!” [Oliver laughs.] And it’s like uuum? A bit off-brand, but okay.
oliver
So, Morgan, this is the first of our—what will be four installments for this year around sampling. We haven’t actually picked what’s gonna come next. I know we wanna pick at least one other album that was important as a sample source, but we gotta get into the albums that—you know—really helped to shape the art of sampling. And without, you know, committing either of us, what do you think—what comes to mind that you think we could get into?
morgan
My first thing—but we’ve already covered this—is we cannot talk about sampling at all without stopping by Funkadelic. And what comes to me first to mind is The Chronicle. We’ve already talked about it. So, I don’t know what album we have to do next, but we have to consider Funkadelic. Parliament Funkadelic.
oliver
Well, I would think, in terms of the albums that have used sampling in really important ways, I kind of feel like we’ve gotta talk about Pete Rock and CL Smooth and Mecca and the Soul Brother. You know, We could get into tribe. We did De La’s Three Feet High and Rising. That would’ve been a really good example to get into this conversation. I agree with you about P Funk, though as I said on that episode with Mayer Hawthorne, like I’m kind of over P Funk [laughing] in some ways. [Morgan agrees.] You know, I respect that. It’d be interesting to maybe get into some of the key jazz albums, whether it was sort of Blue Note Albums that got used a lot, you get into CTI for example. So, that would be kind of another avenue to go down. You know, listeners, if you have your suggestions—after you hear this air—we’re gonna space these out quarterly. So, it’s not gonna be back-to-back-to-back. But we’re gonna try roll out new episodes for the series every couple of months. So, if you have suggestion for us that you think of either, again, sample source albums or albums that use samples in important ways, you know, drop us a line on our socials and let us know. And we’ll swim through that batch and see what jumps out to us.
morgan
Even if there are some obscure samples that you think we haven’t mentioned yet that you’ve discovered in your own musical journey. Things that you think deserve some notice, things that you think deserve some discussion, please let us know about those things. ‘Cause we’ll go deep with them.
music
“Funky Drummer” from the album In the Jungle Groove by James Brown. The funky drummer, the funky drummer Let’s let this funky drummer take it out! One, two, three, four, the funky drummer! [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
You’ve been listening to Heat Rocks with me, Oliver Wang, and Morgan Rhodes.
morgan
Our theme music is “Crown Ones” by Thes One of People Under the Stairs. Shout out to Thes for the hookup.
oliver
Heat Rocks is produced by myself and Morgan. [Theme music fades in.] Alongside Christian Dueñas, who also edits, engineers, and does the booking for our shows.
morgan
Our senior producer is Laura Swisher, and our executive producer is Jesse Thorn.
oliver
We are part of the Maximum Fun family, taping every week live in their studios in the Westlake neighborhood of Los Angeles.
morgan
Good to see you again, Oliver.
oliver
Good to see you too, Morgan. One last thing, here’s a teaser for next week’s episode, which features singer and songwriter Bhi Bhiman, talking to us about Sly and the Family Stone’s Stand!. [Music fades out.]
bhi bhiman
Something that was impactful to me and their politics and their music and everything, but even if you just look at them as a band: White, Black, Latin in San Francisco. I mean, Santana kind of had a similar type of amalgam of things, but he didn’t sing political things like Sly did. And just looking at them was different, and that was a statement. Like, oh! This guy’s inclusive, right off the bat. Or this band is inclusive. His music is inclusive. So, that was an appeal to me, just on a very surface level.
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Cheerful ukulele chord.
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Comedy and culture.
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Artist owned—
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—audience supported.
About the show
Hosted by Oliver Wang and Morgan Rhodes, every episode of Heat Rocks invites a special guest to talk about a heat rock – a hot album, a scorching record. These are in-depth conversations about the albums that shape our lives.
Our guests include musicians, writers, and scholars and though we don’t exclusively focus on any one genre, expect to hear about albums from the worlds of soul, hip-hop, funk, jazz, Latin, and more.
New episodes every Thursday on Apple Podcasts or whatever you get your podcasts.
Subscribe to our website updates for exclusive bonus content (including extra interview segments, mini-episodes, etc.)
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