Transcript
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under The Stairs
oliver wang
Hello, I’m Oliver Wang.
morgan rhodes
And I’m Morgan Rhodes. You’re listening to Heat Rocks.
oliver
Every episode we invite a guest to join us to talk about a heat rock, AKA an album that sizzles, but today we are going multimedia with a new series where we talk about music and movies. We’re calling it Music and Popcorn—shout-out to Morgan for coming up with that—and we’re kicking it off by taking a trip up north to the Santa Cruz boardwalk, and taking a creepy escalator down into Jordan Peele’s 2019 film, Us.
music
“I Got 5 On It (Tethered Mix)” off the album I Got 5 On It by Luniz. Slow, somewhat eerie instrumentals and vocalizations.
oliver
If someone in 2016 had asked for your opinion about Jordan Peele, you might be forgiven if you had first asked, “Wait, was he the tall guy or the short guy from Key and Peele?” [Morgan laughs.] Prior to his breakout debut film, Get Out, Peele was best known for his comedy skits, alongside partner Keegan Michael Key. But with Get Out, Peele showcased all manner of talents as a screenwriter and director by crafting one of the most lauded horror-slash-thriller films in recent years. In 2019, Peele was back with Us, a dark and at times darkly funny meditation on race, class, and equality, and the lethal shortcomings of voice-activated smart devices. Peele clearly has mastered the art of creating a tense, creepy atmosphere, not just visually, but orally as well. And we may never hear the Luniz’s “I Got 5 On It” quite the same way again.
music
[“I Got 5 On It” plays again] I got five on it [Music fades out as Morgan speaks]
morgan
Ah, indeed. Us was the movie and soundtrack pick of our guest today, Renée Bever of the podcast Attack of the Queerwolf. Renée Bever works in the social services and crisis intervention sphere, lending her love and her support of queer communities right here in my beloved Los Angeles. She’s been here in LA for 8 years. As she reminded me, we met 8 years ago today. Uh, we got to know each other a little better when she reached out on social media and said, “Who wants to pick me up from LAX?” [Renée and Oliver laughs.] And I said, “I do.” And the rest was history. I rolled out there and I was like, “How you doing? My name’s Morgan.” And uh, the rest is history. She is super talented, a visual artist, a writer, and a fierce voice in the community. She’s part of the trio of hosts of Blumhouse’s ultra cool podcast, where they discuss, with shriek-worthy moments of horror and mayhem and present a very lit perspective on them. I am so happy to have her here in the bxo with us. Welcome, Renée, to Heat Rocks.
renée bever
Hi. I think it’s funny that, um, 8 years ago when I was very new to LA, I would ask someone to pick me up at the airport, and now I would never. [She laughs.]
morgan
Ask anyone? [Renée responds affirmatively.]
oliver
See, because you did not realize the hellhole that is LAX.
morgan
Man. And um, because I’m from here, this is my hometown, I was like, “She ain’t gonna win.” [Renée laughs.] “So let me go up there.” ‘Cause LAX is, like he said, it’s tough, and there ought to be a horror movie just about LAX, getting in and getting out of it.
oliver
That’d be too real.
morgan
[Laughing] Oh, man. So, Us. Why Us? Why’d you pick this one to talk about?
renée
Uh, well, it’s definitely my favorite film of 2019. [Oliver and Morgan respond emphatically.] And that’s not to say I saw all of them that came out this year, because I did not. But um, yeah, it’s my favorite.
oliver
Why?
renée
It’s visually stunning. It’s fun to watch, it’s fun to listen to. Um, it kind of like, scratched some kind of deep fear itch I had.
morgan
Really?
renée
Yeah! I—I just felt really moved by it, and it was just like, felt so good on my eyeballs to stare at so many Black people for—in a horror movie at the same time.
morgan
And I went to see it with tons of Black folks. I mean, it was Black deep in there. [Renée laughs.] When we came out of the Cinerama Dome, it was like—it was like being at an HBCU all over again. Just filled with Black people. And one of the things that I liked about it was, to me, how Black the movie was and its commentary on race and class. And we can get a little bit more into that.
oliver
Just to back up a second, I’m wondering, especially because this is obviously the sophomore, the follow-up film to Get Out, which I think took a lot of people by surprise. The expectations were super, duper high for Us, and I’m wondering for the room, what were people’s expectations going into the film, and then did it meet or exceed those expectations?
renée
Uh, for me, it exceeded. And I know that that’s not necessarily the most popular opinion from folks, but to me, Get Out was a movie that obviously meant a lot to Black folks, um, and at some level could be understood by white people as well, or just anyone, really. And I felt like in Us, it takes like, a certain amount of a marginalized identity to feel it as deeply. And so I think if people that leaned a certain lesson in Get Out, a lesson that they didn’t know, then they’re probably not somebody that would have felt something deeper from Us.
morgan
Sure. I think one of the things that stood out to me the most was, well, first of all I had great expectations, because Get Out was just such an experience. And again, I went to see it on opening night. It sort of gave me a new feeling about horror. The joke had always been Black folks always die first. Okay, you know, we just don't have a presence in horror movies. Um, I’ve said before, I always wanted to music supervise a horror movie, because I thought the music was always creepy and it would be an opportunity to do unusual choices. And both in Get Out and in this I thought the choices were unusual but elegant. So my expectations were high, and it lived up to it in every sense of the word.
oliver
Overall I thought Get Out was better executed, and partly it’s because I just have a lot of very small nitpicks with the plotting of Us. Perhaps not the least of which is the only thing stopping hundreds of millions of underground murderous clones from rising above an escalator that just goes down the wrong way— [Morgan laughs.] Like, I’m sure I forgot the security layout of this whole thing. Um, spoiler alerts I suppose, if you haven’t seen it yet. Um, but I did thing that comparatively, Us, and maybe this goes back to your point, Renée, I thought it just had a better overall level of sustained—those kind of thriller tense horror moments. Whereas Get Out felt a little bit more up and down. Really once you get into the “this shit is really creepy”, it just holds that, and it holds it really well throughout Us until the very end. Um, where—and not to get too far ahead of ourselves here, but—the song that he chooses—that Jordan Peele chooses—to close the end scene with, I think, just sort of changes the mood in this really fascinating way. Again, we’ll certainly get much more into that. One of the other things that struck me about both Get Out and Us are the ways in which Peele sort of understands the drapings of what a middle class aspirational lifestyle looks like. I think he really hammers that point home on Us because you have that—kind of the little bit of class envy going on between the Black family, the white family. But everywhere people are—everything’s nice looking. The cars are nice, the houses are really nice. Um, but then, you know, he’s revealing all the sinister sides that lie beneath it, and I thought that—and this is not obviously unique, I think, to horror as a genre. It’s always playing with these kind of expectations. But the ways in which, I think—and this goes back to what I was saying about just the look of his films—is he knows what looks good to us—for those of us raised with kind of those middle-class aspirational ambitions—but he’s pointing out like, yeah, I mean, that’s the veneer, but let’s like, kind of dig a couple inches beneath that and you’ll see what lies beneath that, both in literal and figurative ways.
morgan
Yeah, indeed, and that the suburbs are more scary than the hood. And that once you achieve that certain thing, you have other sorts of worries. And I like sort of the juxtaposition of the white family versus the Black family. It all played out, to me, on the beach scene, where, you know, the inside joke around—the Black people always say white people let their kids go crazy. They’d be out there and on the beach. The white family, you know, they weren’t talking about the kids. The son goes missing and Lupita Nyong’o blacks out. Later we know why. Yeah, I think it’s a little bit of commentary on parenting, on the different styles of parenting. It’s a little bit tongue-in-cheek, but a little bit like, this is what we say about you guys that you guys let your kids run wild, however true or not true that is. I thought it was a little bit of a nod to that. And little bit back and forth about the have and have-nots when, and I forgot this character’s name, but he’s teasing the father about having a dinghy. He’s like, “Well, what kind of boat did you get? Did you get that dinghy?” And his whole achievement is buying this boat, which is, you know, it’s sort of a bucket. [Oliver responds affirmatively. Morgan and Renée laugh.] But it’s aspirational. You know what I’m saying? It’s not quite a yacht, but it’s not quite a dinghy. It’s somewhere in the middle, and he’s so proud of it. BUt there’s a little bit of prodding, like, “We ain’t got that.”
oliver
Oh yeah, oh no. That’s not even that subtle, I mean, it really is.
morgan
“We ain’t got that.” Yeah, so yeah.
renée
Yeah, I really like how, you know, it starts out with this Black family and it’s like, they’re going on vacation. You know, they have this spot, and they’re at the beach, and up against this white family who’s actually rich, who has like, glass walls and don’t lock their doors, it’s like, okay. And that’s really interesting, because I think as a young person I would have thought both of those families were rich. [Morgan responds affirmatively.] And not until much older would I have understood how much richer the white folks were. Um, because I would have thought that anyone with a vacation home or a spot to even go on vacation were wealthy.
morgan
In Santa Cruz. [Renée responds affirmatively.] Yeah. I would have thought so, too.
oliver
Let’s start shifting this to talk about some of the music and sound of the film. In particular one of the things that I though twas really cool is in the lead up to Us is that Spotify had given Jordan Peele—I guess they have this takeover series where they allow filmmakers to um, take over part of a playlist section within Spotify. And what Peele did was he built his takeover aorund the discussion of the use of music primarily in horror and thriller films. Um, for example, here is his breakdown of the use of “Goodbye Horses” in the key—one of the key scenes in Silence of the Lambs.
clip
Jordan Peele: Normally when a horror villain is introduced, particularly one who makes dresses out of human skin, the music is foreboding and ominous. Q Lazzarus’ emotive, new-age “Goodbye Horses” is anything but that, and yet it fully establishes the creepiness and mystique of Buffalo Bill’s character in a matter of seconds, as he dances in front of the mirror.
music
“Goodbye Horses” by Q Lazzarus. Upbeat pop with vocalizations.
oliver
It’s surprisingly hard to find this series of commentaries by Jordan. Like, if you search in Spotify’s own search engine for Jordan Peele and takeover or Jordan Peele whatever, it doesn’t come up. You find it through Google. So, I—like, Spotify, fix your algorithm. [Morgan laughs.] Because it actually is a really fun listen. He doesn’t overstay his welcome. These are really short bits. But just to have someone pointing out, “Oh, look at his film and how it uses this song,” I just thought was a really useful and educational, and entertaining way of rethinking—again, what is it that we’re hearing and listening to a lot of these things, again, from a very personal perspective. Um, I’m just wondering for each of you, do you have any favorite uses of pop music in a horror or thriller?
morgan
This isn’t a use of pop music, but it was one of my favorite uses of music in a film, and it goes back many, many years ago, to an old black and white film called What Ever Happened to Baby Jane? It’s Bette Davis and Joan Crawford, and if you’re not up on the story, Bette Davis is the worst possible sibling ever, but she’s also a child star. A really old child star that’s stuck in the past. And her claim to fame was her persona of Baby Jane and this one song that she used to sing all the time. Um, we catch her, she’s in her, I’d guess 60s, and she’s still got the blonde ringlets and the little cupid doll face. And there’s a scene in the movie where a guy comes over to check in on them. Baby Jane, you know, she’s shot out mentally, so she thinks it’s a talent agent come to recruit her for something. So she goes into the song and she performs it. You have to imagine the creep factor of a woman in middle age still with blonde ringlets thinking she’s Shirley Temple, and doing this whole sort of song and dance in a house with a man who’s, for all intents and purposes, is some sort of social worker and is like, “Oh my God.” Right? That was one of the moments, hearing her do that song, and them sort of showing flashbacks of her being a little kid doing the song, is something that I will never forget. It made me think differently about celebrity and what celebrity fading does to people who are clearly dependent on it. So, that was a moment that I always thought, this is what it’s like to be stuck in the past.
music
“I’ve Written A Letter to Daddy” by Bette Davis. Slow, sad singing. I've written a letter to Daddy His address is Heaven above I've written "Dear Daddy, we miss you And wish you were with us to love" [Music fades out as Oliver speaks]
oliver
What’s funny is the first thing that really came to mind as you were describing that is that in 2019 or 2020 that person would be on a reality show just trying to perform that song. [Morgan laughs and responds affirmatively.] Which would maybe take some of the creepiness out.
morgan
Exactly. What is that—what is that show where htey all live in one house together?
oliver
What, The Real World?
morgan
No, no, no, it’s like—
renée
The Bad Girls Club? [Morgan and Renée laugh.]
morgan
Exactly. No, they live together. Is it Big Brother? No, that’s not the name of it.
renée
I think Big Brother, they also—
oliver
Yeah, yeah.
morgan
Is it Big Brother? They live in the house, yeah? [Oliver responds affirmatively.] So like maybe celebrity Big Brother. So that was a moment that I never forgot. That little—it was so scary in that moment to watch her be frozen. It’s a commentary on a lot of things. On mental illness, on elder abuse, on celebrity and stuff. But I’ll never forget that moment.
oliver
Yeah. I thought about, um—and this is something that Jordan talks about in that Spotify takeover—but it’s in Edgar Wright’s Shaun of the Dead, and it’s the use of Queen’s “Don’t Stop Now” during the pub attack. [Morgan responds emphatically.] And, I mean, if you watch enough of Edgar Wright’s films, you know, he is one of the modern masters of strategic use of pop songs in films, and I think because Shaun of the Dead was—and I don’t remember if this was his debut film. It was certainly the film that, for American viewers at least, this was the film that introduced us to his style. And just the kind of—I mean, the song is played both ironically but also done brilliantly along with the cinematography and the editing in particular, because everything happens in the scene on beat with the song itself. And I just want to—I wish I could have been in the room when the surviving members of Queen were shown the scene and then asked if they were willing to clear it or not, and what that discussion would have been like. [Oliver and Morgan laugh.] Because it’s—I mean, it’s a funny scene. It’s a kind of effed up scene. But, again, the use of like, the super cheery Queen song for like, the zombie attack is the juxtaposition of—I mean, and again, this is clearly what Wright was going for, that really stands out.
clip
Music: “Don’t Stop Me Now” by Queen. Upbeat, fun music. Don’t stop me now Don’t stop me… 'Cause I'm having a good time, having a good time Shaun: Okay, John, it’s time at the bar. [The sounds of zombies groaning while being hit with pool cues can be heard in time with the beat.] I'm a shooting star, leaping through the sky Like a tiger defying the laws of gravity I'm a racing car passing by like Lady Godiva! [Clip fades out]
oliver
The other thing that came to mind was—and I don’t really know where Mulholland Drive fits into, whether it’s a thriller or a horror film. I mean, obviously it has components of both. But it has this really pivotal stage performance of Roy Orbinson’s “Crying” but done en Español by Rebekah Del Rio that happens at a really key plot point in the film. And I know the word “haunting” gets used—probably overused—but there is no better way of describing that.
music
“Crying” by Rebekah Del Rio. As Oliver described, hauntingly melodic acapella singing. Yo estaba bien por un tiempo, Volviendo a sonreír. Luego anoche te vi Tu mano me tocó Y el saludo de tu voz. Y hablé muy... [Music fades out as Oliver speaks]
oliver
How about you, Renée, what jumps to your mind?
renée
Uh, I was thinking about—have you seen Jennifer’s Body?
oliver
I have not, but I’ve heard of it.
renée
Okay. Well, um, uh, it came out, you know, ten years ago. Directed by Karyn Kusama, starring my queen, Megan Fox. She ate that performance up. [Morgan laughs.] But regardless of that, you know, part of the plot is that there’s this band that she likes, that she is swooned by, and they play this song called “Through The Trees” at the bar that ends up burning down. You know, throughout the plot, this song is brought into the movie. It becomes like, the high school’s theme song throughout the tragedy of the movie, and the— I don’t want to spoil it for anyone. You should go see it. But at the end of the movie it all comes together that this band is who killed Jennifer, and you kind of like, watch them do it through some trees in the forest, and the song is called “Through The Trees.” And it’s like, it’s such a—kind of a vile scene, what they do to Megan Fox in that movie, that the song is so chilling. But, you know, having come out at the end of the 2000s, it was very just this like, 2000s little boy band vibe of a song, you know?
clip
Speaker 1: Good evening, Devil’s Lake. Speaker 2: Devil’s Kettle! Speaker 1: Fucking A right it is. Music: “Through The Trees” by Low Shoulder. Upbeat, mid-tempo guitar and drums.
morgan
Alright, we’ll be back with more of our conversation with Renée Bever on Us after a brief word from a couple great MaxFun podcasts. Don’t go anywhere.
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under The Stairs
promo
Music: Uplifting, orchestral music plays. Moujan Zolfaghari: Hey everyone, Moujan Zolfaghari here with the cast of Mission to Zyxx! The Cast: [Speaking out of sync and staggered.] Hello! Moujan: Our fourth season premiers on February 19th, and for those of you who aren’t familiar with the show, we decided to ask one of our characters to give you a quick recap of what’s happened so far. [Distant cheering.] Moujan: So, say hi, C-53! C-53: [Voice distorted electronically.] Hello. How may I be of service? Moujan: C, can you tell us what’s happening in the Zyxx quadrant, leading up to season 4? C-53: [Pleasantly.] Certainly. The evil Nermut Bundaloy—not to be confused with the nonevil Nermut Bundaloy of no relation—murdered his fellow counselors and crowned himself emperor of the galaxy, with the help of myself and the rest of the crew of The Bargerian Jade. Xemonite Cleptics that are not the emperor and an ancient, cosmic entity known as Beano into a chasm, aboard the gigantic Planet Crusher Crusher—a machine built to crush Planet Crushers, which in turn which were designed to crush planets—resulting in implosion, created a vast celestial object with unknown powers. We’re currently in search of our formal rebel commander, Seesu Gundu, who may yet reunite our fractured galaxy. Is that sufficient? Moujan: Yeah! All clear to me! Mission to Zyxx Season 4 debuts on February 19th, on Maximum Fun. [Music ends with a triumphant chorus of trumpets.]
promo
[A quick, energetic drumroll.] Music: Exciting techno music plays. Jarrett Hill: Hey, I’m Jarrett Hill, co-host of the brand-new Maximum Fun podcast, FANTI! Tre’vell Anderson: And Tre’vell Anderson. I’m the other, more fabulous, co-host, and the reason you really should be tuning in! Jarrett: I feel the nausea rising. Tre’vell: To be FANTI is to be a big fan of something, but also have some challenging or “anti” feelings toward it. Jarrett: Kind of like Kanye. Tre’vell: We’re all fans of Kanye. He’s a musical genius, but, like, you know… Jarrett: He thinks slavery’s a choice. Tre’vell: Or, like, The Real Housewives of Atlanta. Like, I love the drama, but do I wanna see black women fighting each other on screen? [Singing.] Hell, to the naaaaw. To the naw-naw-naaaw. Jarrett: We’re tackling all of those complex and complicated conversations about the people, places, and things that we love. Tre’vell: Even though they may not love us back. Jarrett: FANTI! Maximum Fun! Podcast! Tre’vell: Yeah! [Music fades out.]
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under The Stairs
oliver
We are back on Heat Rocks. This is part of our Music and Popcorn series. We’re talking about Jordan Peele’s 2019 film Us and its music with guest, Renée Bever.
morgan
I want to talk about the drive in the car on the way to the beach, because when the trailer came out—I love social media. You know, it’s a love hate thing, but mostly I love it. But I love Black Twitter and what they go in on. And so the whole debate about the car ride was, was Lupita Nyong’o on beat when she was snapping her fingers? [Renée laughs uproariously.] Okay, and that was like, a three day old—you know what I’m saying? This was like, prolific arguments happening on social media, like, “Was she on beat?” Okay. And so then film Twitter, Black film Twitter had to weigh in like, “Well, you don’t know what happens, you know, when we’re filming trailers and the timing might have been off.” Then we got into playbacks and what happens, and then music supervisors weighed in and then whatever, whatever. [Oliver laughs]
renée
That’s hilarious.
morgan
So, that became the thing.
clip
[Clip from movie plays. Sound of car motor can be heard under music and dialogue.] Music: “I Got 5 On It” plays. Mid-tempo rap. Jason Wilson: What does “I got five on it” mean? Zora Wilson: It’s about drugs. Gabe Wilson: It’s not about drugs. It’s adult song. Don’t do drugs. [Jason laughs.] Adelaide Wilson: Jason, come on. Get in rhythm. [Adelaide begins snapping as the music grows louder.] Adelaide: There you go. There you go!
morgan
In my mind, because I’m a music supervisor and because I see clips in their first, second, third iteration and cuts, um, at the time the playback was available, maybe the song wasn’t cleared yet and they just had her snap to an invisible beat, and by the time the song was cleared it just didn’t work out on timing. What did you think? Did you think deeply about it? Did you think she was on beat? [Oliver laughs.]
renée
I don’t think I noticed, but now that I think about it, she—now I know why, but she always did seem so strange to me, and I don’t think it would have stood out to me that she was off beat. [Morgan responds affirmatively.]
oliver
Well, so, because I had seen all of this stuff on Twitter previous to having seen the film, I was waiting for the scene and paying close attention. I think the answer is she’s kinda on it, she’s kinda off. Like, there’s points where she is on, but not the whole way through, and I think, Renée, like you, I was trying to figure out is this supposed to be a character indication? Right, that something’s off? Or, to your point, Morgan, is it just, you know, the editing was—there’s only so much you can do—
morgan
There’s only so much you can do.
oliver
—to fix it. Um, I think the fact that it’s ambiguous is actually kind of the charm of it, regardless. It’s because of the fact that you can have this argument, and if you want to read it from a narrative point of view, if you want to read it from a technical point of view, it works either way.
morgan
It works, because if she wasn’t—if she’s some sort of doppelganger, she’s not the real Lupita, then she’s off.
oliver
I think what this means though is any future film where a character is expected to snap their fingers or clap their hands on beat, they’re gonna be—that actor is going to be super nervous about this. [Renée laughs.]
morgan
Super nervous. They’re gonna be like, “Yo, get this on.” And sometimes this happens, like, the scene is recorded before you have a song. This has happened to me before, where um, they’ve put in a song temporarily and for whatever reason we can’t clear that song, we can’t afford it. So one of the things that we have to do as music supervisors is you have to match up the timing, so we’ll have to count the BPMs on whatever we have in mind so that the beat matches their steps, and sometimes that’s difficult. Um, I did this for an episode of Queen Sugar, and I had to watch them dance over and over and over again, and then I put in a song. Oh, yeah. So, shout-out to Lupita, ‘cause I’m not gonna judge you, sister. You might’ve been on— [Oliver laughs.] —you know what I mean? I’m on your side, Lupita. I’m with you on this.
oliver
She should be mad if she got done dirty though, you know, if it was a production issue.
morgan
Well, then, you know, then cultural critic Black Twitter came in and was like, “Why is this a thing? Why is this a discussion? There’s a larger issue—” [Renée laughs.] “—about class, race. People like, ‘But was she on beat, though?’”
renée
I love that, you know, I’m glad you reminded me that she had told her son to like, catch the beat. [Morgan responds affirmatively.] As the doppleganger, like, as the tethered person, she knows how to mimic. And I think, it’s like, that is advice that she would give.
morgan
Get the beat. Get the beat, yeah.
oliver
So, Morgan, as a music supervisor, what did you think about the overall song choices and placements in the film?
morgan
Loved them, because—and I have to go back to Thomas Golubić again, because when I first started doing this, I thought, you know, “Yo, what’s some advice you could give a young music supervisor?” And the two things he said was, “One, listen to everything, and two, make elegant choices.” By elegant, I didn’t know at the time, but I understood later as watching his career. I mean, he is a music supervisor’s music supervisor, and one of the best in the business. But what he’s best at is making surprising choices. Which is—it’s tempting to always go on the nose, and sometimes that’s appropriate, but putting things that you wouldn’t expect—and they could have played anything in the car. They could have gone current in the car. But to come back to—well, first Janelle Monáe, which I loved, which I thought is really pretty and elegant. It sort of set the tone to what Jordan Peele things about soft voices, because you start with Janelle and you end with Minnie Riperton. We can talk about that a little bit later.
oliver
I didn’t think about that. That’s a great point.
morgan
His thing about soft voices, which I think—which—I don’t want to get too deep into it but I think sometimes, if you think about soft voices, what they do for your mind, that they lull you into a false sense of security, and that whole—what is it, AMSR? ASMR?
oliver
“Azz-murr.” Yeah. ASMR.
morgan
Soft voices, what they do, and what they—the extremes that they take you to. Sometimes they can drive you crazy but sometimes they lull you into “everything is gonna be okay.” [Renée responds affirmatively.] And at the strangest times in Jordan Peele’s movies, you got a soft voice. So I like that he was doing something, I thought, psychologically that we weren’t aware of.
music
“I Like That” by Janelle Monáe. Mid-tempo, grooving instrumentals and vocals with a steady beat. Sometimes a mystery, sometimes I'm free Depending on my mood or my attitude Sometimes I wanna... [Music fades out as Renée speaks]
renée
Well, first, I really love what you were saying about soft voices, because soft voices, they’re actually capable of making you feel any emotion, as opposed to like, a scream, or a yell. Because you can feel relaxation or you can feel terror. And I think that is the creepiest part about it to me, is because maybe in the beginning of a statement, you don’t know which way it’s gonna go. Um, but you definitely know by the end. [She laughs, and Morgan responds affirmatively.] Where it sent you, yeah. Um, but I think it was just so—it was so refreshing to hear something with a good beat in a horror movie. [She laughs.] It’s something familiar, something fun, but something that, you know, really got flipped on its head when we’re talking about the Luniz. Like, when that song comes on, what you imagine is probably not a scary situation, or a time in history that you didn't enjoy. [Oliver and Morgan respond affirmatively.] But just—I mean, in the way that Abels like, re-composed that and added in all of these really just kind of like breathtaking, scary elements, it’s just so genius. I’m like, “Don’t throw a violin on top of the hip hop beat, like I will lose my mind.” [Everyone laughs.] I will lose it. It was just so special, and I think—I don’t know. Sometimes I feel like something with that excellent of a beat, it’s like a dog whistle for—it was like a dog whistle for Black folks. [Through laughter] When we started to watch that movie, like, “Oh, is this for us?”
morgan
Yeah, exactly.
oliver
This is a super, duper nitpick point.
morgan
Go in.
oliver
Because I was living in the bay area when that song dropped. What I really wanted to hear, I wanted to hear the remix. [Morgan laughs.] Which would not have changed it musically, it just would’ve been, you know, all the baller—the big baller remix of all the top Oakland and bay area MCs. Because that was the version that really got the heaviest play, at least in the bay area, for perhaps obvious reasons. And it’s really the version I know best. I actually was listening to the—them playing the Luniz in the car, I’m like, “Oh yeah, this is what the OG version sounds like! I never hear this version. I always hear the remix.” [Morgan responds affirmatively.]
music
“I Got 5 On It (Remix)” by Luniz feat. Bay Area Allstars "E-40, why you treat me so bad?" 40 makes it happen Fosgate slapping and revenue grows From just a little bit of lightweight flamboasting Potent fumes, lingering mighty clouds and Northern Lights You disrespect Vic da Baron And you'll be violating my civil rights I'm starting to feel my scrilla But perhaps today my scrilla ain't feeling me [Music fades out as Oliver speaks]
oliver
This is all besides the point. I think, again, we’ve been giving credit here to composer Michael Abels, who— [Morgan affirms.] He created the Tethered, the so-called Tethered mix for “I Got 5 On It” and taking all of the elements that you never really realized were that creepy in the original song, because that’s not what the song was about, but then hearing that and then really pulling that out. Which I think is the point that both of you are making here.
morgan
When you add an echo to it— [Oliver and Renée both respond emphatically.] —and overdub it a whole bunch of times and, you know, chop and screw it, you’re like, “Well, damn.” [Renée laughs.]
oliver
I’m just glad the Luniz are getting paid, you know, in 20—in the late 20-teens. Like, that’s—
morgan
It was a whole odyssey of rights and publishing and stuff, and so I’m glad. And to have the song used again, because it was also used in The Last Black Man in San Francisco. But it actually has the lead singer and he plays sort of a busker, and he’s singing “I Got 5.” So that’s another placement. That’s another paycheck. Shout-out.
oliver
Normally on our conventional show, we would ask people what the fire track is off of the album. BUt in this case, the fire track equivalent for our discussion here on Music and Popcorn would be, what was your favorite use of a pop song in the movie that we’re talking about? So in Us, what do you think was the singular best use of a pop song?
morgan
I love NWA. [Renée laughs delightedly.]
oliver
Kind of hard to go wrong with that one.
morgan
I love it. Um, I’m from LA. This is my hometown. But I like the spirit and the timing. If you think back to the scene, this is so smart. Like, shout-out to Jordan Peele, damn it. But it’s so smart about the difference between what is scary to Black people and what is scary to white people. When Lupita and family are in the house and she hears a knock at the door, everybody’s instantly scared, and they’re like, “Get the bat, okay? Something’s about to go down.” The white family, the wife says, “I heard something at the door.” And he’s like, “Oh, I’m chilling.” Remember, he’s in his chair, he’s drinking? It’s not scary to him. That noise outside is like, whatever. Then he makes the joke and says...
clip
Josh: Oh, shit. No. Yeah, I—there’s something out there. Speaker 2: Don’t fuck with me, Josh. Josh: I’m not fucking with you. I’m serious. There’s something out there. Look. Look behind the car. Speaker 2: Where? I don’t see it. Josh: It’s by the car! Look! Speaker 2: I ca— Josh: Oh, shit! Speaker 2: What? Josh: [Gasps] Oh, my God. It’s OJ. It’s OJ Simpson! [Laughs.] Speaker 2: What is wrong with you?
morgan
And we know that the OJ trial, and all the brouhaha around it had a lot of racial politics and policies behind it. So I thought that was smart. And then the timing of the police— [Oliver laughs.] —is right when she says, “Call the police.” So it’s a twist on—it’s like, not—the police have said [beep] you, because you’re getting ready to get killed by your doppelganger. And Alexa, who just doesn’t—
oliver
Ophelia. Ophelia.
morgan
—Ophelia, was different on this side of town, when you cry for help, she’s like, “We’re gonna put it on NWA.” Which was also surprising like, “Why is that in your playlist? But okay.”
clip
Speaker 1: Please, stop it. [There is a computerized ding.] Ophelia: Stopping “Good Vibrations” by the Beach Boys. [Sound of someone panting, and a wet gargling.] Speaker 1: Ophelia. Ophelia, call the police. Ophelia: Sure. Playing “Fuck Tha Police” by NWA Music: “Fuck Tha Police” by NWA Fuck the police coming straight from the underground A young n-gga got it bad 'cause I'm brown And not the other color so police think They have the authority to kill a minority Fuck that shit, 'cause I ain't the one For a punk motherfucker with a badge and a gun
morgan
At the moment of your greatest, you are completely incapacitated. You are crawling on the floor, and somebody that looks just like your husband is about to slash you up. And you cry out for the police, and here comes NWA, and that’s it for you.
renée
It’s just like, so genius going from the Beach Boys, which is what was playing previously.
oliver
Right, the whitest of all white. [Renée responds affirmatively, repeating.]
morgan
Still west coast.
oliver
Still west coast. Great song, I mean, I’m not—I would never besmirch Beach Boys, let alone “Good Vibrations”, but anyways.
renée
Yeah, I mean, it was a bop. You know, I definitely knew, I was like, “Oh, I think this is a bop, because I was raised by white women who thought this was a bop.” You know? Um, and so it’s—I love the switch, and I love that it’s just a reminder of—I just—It was kind of a slap in the face. I mean it is a slap in the face obviously, that she asks for the police to be called, and then the song gets played. But also it’s a slap in the face to just remind everyone, um, that not everyone can call the police and expect to be saved from anything.
morgan
Immediately.
renée
Yeah. You know. And so, I love that, and I love—I didn’t think about it being in their playlist. I just thought it was like— [Oliver and Morgan respond affirmatively.] —you know utilising the internet, yeah. But, it is funnier thinking about it being on their playlist. Because I’m like, “Oh, you thought that song was real cute, huh? And you’re someone who calls the police for help.” But, um.
morgan
But no. Not this time. And then also, too, about that scene that was so scary, is what I said earlier about the elements of horror movies that he employs. And to me nothing was more scary about The Shining than those twins. So, having twins in this film, I was like, “Yep. Somebody’s gonna die in here.” [Oliver laughs.] And so, the chaos of that situation. I was almost shocked when that happened, because I didn’t know it was gonna go down like that, but that has a lot to do with the music. The music is playing, everyone’s relaxed.
oliver
Right, “Good Vibrations”, yeah, it’s a feel good song, everyone was lulled into a sense of security, and all of a sudden the scissors come out, and then it’s game over.
renée
Yeah. The twins were being bratty, they’re like, “Go to bed!” and they’re like, “We’re not even sleeping.” And then they get popped so quick. [Oliver and Morgan laugh.] You know, I didn’t know everyone else was gonna have a doppelganger.
oliver
Right. We didn’t know that. We didn’t know that.
renée
It happens so fast, and then you see them laying in the hallway, just like the twins from The Shining.
morgan
Just like.
renée
And it was just stunning, like, I got deep chills. Because I was like, “Oh, you did that.”
morgan
Blood on the walls, Stanley Kubrick, all over again. Here we go.
oliver
Two thoughts, about specifically the use of “Fuck Tha Police” in that scene. One is, I was reading that according to the person that runs the music department at Universal, which did all the clearances for this, they had actually tested that scene with The Police, meaning like, Sting and Company. And they tried both ways, and he didn’t say which Police song, but I think the thinking was it was probably “Every Breath You Take”, because Elizabeth Moss’ character was about to take her last one. And, I think probably, perhaps not surprisingly, even though it would have been very funny to hear the Police come on, it just wasn’t—it’s not gonna play the same way as “Fuck Tha Police” is. And the other thing, we talked about this in the Wong Kar Wai episode—we were talking about _Chungking Expres_s—about that certain filmmakers really let the songs play, not just for like that 20 seconds. But they let the song play, and this was a case where “Fuck Tha Police”, I think, maybe even longer than The Luniz, is—they don’t—maybe it’s not the full length of the song, but it’s at least a good two to three minutes. Which means that you get to hear it as Zora’s going around the house with that gold putter, putting in work on the zombie twins. And something about, just the energy of “Fuck Tha Police”, and you’re watching, you know, this black teen, you’re just going around taking out fools. Again, not a—I don’t think it was a coincidence. I think it was deliberate, because there was a kind of exuberance there. My daughter was getting hyped watching her just, like, straight up taking shots to the dome on the zombie twins.
morgan
Yeah, I didn’t even think about the timing of that. Now I have to revisit that.
oliver
Right, because he could have ended it after Moss’ character dies, but instead that song is—it’s still playing two-three scenes into that segment.
music
“Fuck Tha Police” by NWA. Fast-paced rap. I'm tired of the motherfucking jacking Sweating my gang, while I'm chilling in the shack, and Shining the light in my face, and for what? Maybe it's because I kick so much butt I kick ass, or maybe 'cause I blast On a stupid-assed n-gga when I'm playing with the trigger Of an Uzi or an AK 'Cause the police always got something stupid to say [Music fades out as Morgan speaks]
morgan
And that is a genius use of a song carrying the narrative. It also says to me that music budget was right. [Oliver and Renée laugh.] That’s what it says to me.
oliver
Hey, they’re clearing “Good Vibrations”, you figure they got some money.
morgan
Well, one of the people that I went with was the music supervisor, and we tease each other all the time, because we’re like, “Let’s let this be the film that we’re not counting dollars.” Because it’s hard not to do that, because we clear stuff all the time. But as soon as that came on, I was already like, “60 thousand, 70 thousand, blah blah blah.” You’re going in your mind because those are big, big uses. But also there wasn’t a lot of music in there, so he could stretch his dollar a little bit more.
oliver
So besides the NWA, any other favorite moments of pop placement in this film?
renée
Um, you know, at the end, when Minnie Riperton starts. It was—I love Rob Zombie—well, I love Rob Zombie films. And it was giving me, like, Devil’s Reject, just major release and relief. And it just played so well with the sunshine and seeing people joined in the hands across the terrain, and I just—it was just the perfect song to express a shift and to express relief and release.
music
“Les Fleurs” by Minnie Riperton. Slow, melodic singing and gentle instrumentals. Kiss my petals and weave me through a dream. For all of these simple things and much more a flower was born It blooms to spread love and joy faith [Music fades out as Morgan speaks]
morgan
Biased, because I love Minnie Riperton. I thought it was such a flip, to your point, on Hands Across America and how we started. As it ended, we floated. The cinematography, we floated over that space, and Minnie Riperton helped us to float. Perfection. Made me wanna go home and practice.
music
[“Les Fleurs” plays again] Ring all the bells sing and tell the people that be everywhere that the flower has come Light up the sky with your prayers [Music fades out again]
oliver
We talked a little bit about Michael Abels and the music he did for it. Um, this is of course the second time that he’s worked with Jordan Peele. I think, no less an authority on this. It was either George Lucas or Stephen Spielberg basically told Peele that, “You and Abels are like the new Lucas and John Williams. The way in which your work goes together so well.” And to those unfamiliar with the backstory of how the two men began working together, it was when Peele was making Get Out, he specifically wanted to find an African American composer. And because that particular industry, at least here in southern California, is not the most diverse, shall we say, he had a really hard time. I think he found Abels because Abels had posted some stuff on YouTube of some of the stuff he had done. Because Abels wasn’t getting work from a lot of these studios, and that’s kind of how they found each other. Um, I mean, even though our segment is really focusing primarily on the pop music, I think it would be a disservice not to give Abels more credit for the score. I mean besides the Tethered mix and the Luniz joint. There’s one scene which is rather long, and I think it might be the longest time outside of maybe the intro and outro, here would be here when one of these score songs play. Song’s called “Femme Fatale”, and it’s when the shadow version of Elizabeth Moss, who I think is called Dahlia—the shadow version is called Dahlia—is putting on lipstick, and it’s creepy as fuck. But, “Femme Fatale” is playig behind it, and the first thing I thought about. And I was trying to figure out if this was purposeful, I can’t imagine it wasn’t. It sounds very much like Abel’s take on Henry Mancini’s “Lujon”, which has been placed in quite a few films.
music
“Lujon” by Henry Mancini. Classical string music that plays for several moments before fading out as Oliver speaks.
oliver
“Lujon” is amazing, and I think what Abels does here, and the way it underscores this really creepy thing of this, you know, the shadow zombie putting lipstick on, I thought worked beautifully.
music
[“Lujon” plays again]
oliver
I mean, hearing this again, it’s definitely “Lujon.” There’s no way this is not his riff on that. But in any case, it’s the one—there might have been other instances of the score night being super creepy or tense, but this is one where it’s not that at all. I mean, it’s beautiful, it feels nice. But the visual on the screen is that kind of ambivalence. Well, she’s having a nice little moment here, except it’s really fucked up, you know, given what we’ve just seen.
renée
Ugh, I loved that moment, because I imagined that all of the tethered people underground are so used to mimicking their doppleganger that that—in that moment, she’s like, “I have done this before. I have made this motion to like, put something on, and now I understand what was actually happening, because this time there’s actually lip gloss in my hands.” And her eyes in that shot are just—she looks mesmerized and so happy, and then with that score behind it, I—I almost—I mean, it’s obviously startlingly creepy, but I almost forgot that it was scary, because I was almost happy for the person. [Oliver and Morgan affirm repeatedly.] I was like, “Oh, thank God you’re not underground anymore and you, you know, you get to like, put on lip gloss if that’s what you wanna do.”
morgan
And then not. [Everyone laughs.]
renée
And then not. And then not at all.
morgan
And I would be remiss if I didn’t take a moment to shout-out the community of Black composers, which include Terence Blanchard, and Kris Bowers, and Daniel Crawford, alongside Kathryn Bostic, Tamar Kali, Taura Stinson. So I just wanted—and Meshell Ndegeocello. So, we are out here doing it, but it’s wonderful that uh, that Jordan was able to find Michael Abels, and shout-out to them putting in the work.
oliver
Renée, if you had to describe Us in three words, what would those three words be?
renée
Hm. I would say that it’s—it’s poignant and chilling, but refreshing at the same time, and I don’t know how—
oliver
On point. Yeah.
renée
—that happened.
music
“I Got 5 On It” plays again. I got five on it Messin' wit that Indo' weed I got five on it It's got me stuck and knocked on back I got five on it Partna, let's go half on a sack [Music fades out as Oliver speaks]
oliver
If our listeners, those who have already seen Us, or those who are intrigued now to go watch it, what should be the next thing they watch after this, Renée?
renée
It seems like an odd recommendation, because some of it feels so opposite of Us, but I really think they should watch The Devil’s Rejects. I think, you know, as Us is so beautiful in spite of the carnage or whatever’s terrifying, and The Devil’s Rejects is ugly. And I think you can feel the beauty from Us and the ugliness from Devil’s Rejects really intensely if you watch them near each other.
oliver
Morgan, you have any thoughts?
morgan
I’d go back, and only because I think that it was a horror movie, um, cheesy horror, but if you go back to 1987 and The Lost Boys.
oliver
I was just thinking that!
renée
Oh my god, I was thinking about The Lost Boys and the music!
morgan
‘Cause they had a great soundtrack.
oliver
And wasn’t that also set in Santa Cruz?
renée
Yes!
morgan
Set in Santa Cruz.
renée
On the beach.
morgan
Psh, suburbs.
renée
You’re so smart. That is exactly what people should watch. [Oliver laughs.]
morgan
Yup. The two Coreys, okay.
oliver
The two Coreys! My dude, Keifer! Jason Patric! [Renée and Morgan respond emphatically.] When Jason Patric was still a thing. He was actually never really a thing, but they tried to make him a thing.
morgan
They did try to make him a thing. He had great hair. And there is a scene, like we were saying earlier. When you have a song where little kids are singing, somebody’s gonna die. [Oliver laughs.] So get into the soundtrack and go back to 1987 and The Lost Boys. That would be my recommendation.
renée
Perfect. That was perfect.
oliver
I’m gonna go with low hanging fruit, which is The Shining, and partly it’s because there’s been so much discussion around Kubrick’s film, because Doctor Sleep. At the time we’re recording this, Doctor Sleep had just come out a few weeks ago. Apparently has flopped really badly, but we don’t need to get into that. But if you want to talk about just a sense of both visual and sonic atmosphere, I mean, The Shining is at the pinnacle in terms of that, especially at the visual level. And we were talking about, it’s, you know, Peele is definitely riffing on parts of that, especially with the twins. And I’m sure there’s other little things you could find, little Easter eggs planted there. But if you’ve never seen The Shining, it’s not—I don’t think it’s—it’s not the kind of consistent, um—it’s not a horror-fest in I think some of the more traditional ways we’ve come to think of it, but it is, similar to Us, is once that creepiness sets in, and really with that film it sets in on the drive into the hotel. Which, now that I think about it, what does Us open with? It opens with a drive through the woods. [Morgan and Renée respond affirmatively.] So, again, another echo. And that atmosphere just does not let up throughout the entirety of that film, so.
morgan
And in both films, something’s amiss with the little boy. [Oliver and Renée affirm emphatically.] Something’s a miss with the little boy.
oliver
There you go.
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under The Stairs
morgan
That’ll do it for this episode of Heat Rocks with our guest, Renée Bever, talking about a very cool movie, which is Us and the ultra-cool soundtrack. Let us know what’s going on with you now, and where can folks find you?
renée
Uh, I’m on Instagram and Twitter @Blackkcupcake. That’s B-L-A-K-K-C-U-P-C-A-K-E. Uh, I co-host a podcast that we mentioned earlier called Attack of the Queerwolf, um, and you can find us wherever you stream your podcasts. And we’re also on Instagram and Twitter @QueerwolfPod.
morgan
And get into her socials, because I live for them. [Renée laughs.] So, please do get into her Instagram. The posts give me such life.
oliver
And to be clear, Attack of the Queerwolf is uh, it’s a horror film podcast. The three of you discuss different horror films.
renée
Yes. So, um, there’s three of us, and we discuss horror movies from a queer perspective.
morgan
Love it.
oliver
And you’re—I’m assuming—you’re named after the film Curse of the Queerwolf, right? [Renée laughs and affirms.] Which I’ve never seen. Was that part of your discussion? Have you all discussed that film?
renée
We haven’t yet, actually. Um, I think we’re just, you know, you kind of wait for the right guest and the right timing.
oliver
Oh, we know how that works.
renée
Yeah, you know. But it’ll definitely happen.
oliver
You’ve been listening to Heat Rocks with me, Oliver Wang, and Morgan Rhodes.
morgan
Our theme music is “Crown Ones” by Thes One of People Under The Stairs. Shoutout to Thes for the hookup.
oliver
Heat Rocks is produced by myself and Morgan, alongside Christian Dueñas, who also edits, engineers, and does the booking for our shows.
morgan
Our senior producer is Laura Swisher, and our executive producer is Jesse Thorn.
oliver
We are part of the Maximum Fun family, taping every week live in their studios in the West Lake neighborhood of Los Angeles, where you might actually run into your doppelganger. You never know. It’s that kind of neighborhood.
morgan
Alright, and be sure to follow us on Twitter and Instagram @HeatRocksPod. You can find a link to our Facebook group on our webpage, HeatRocksPod.com. That’s where we’re post show notes for every episode, including a full transcript of each episode, a track listing of everything you’ve heard today, and other goodies. Again, that’s at HeatRocksPod.com.
oliver
We want to thank all of our five-star iTunes reviewers, including—Morgan, you’ll like this—Lineage of Combustibles. [Morgan laughs.] Who wrote in to say that Morgan and I are “five-star generals” with “ten degrees of style.” Damn! That deserves a twenty-gun salute. Thank you, Lineage of Combustibles! Likewise, shout-out to Steve B EC, who “swoons at Morgan’s intros” while enjoying my “erudite, heartfelt, and insightful reflections.” That is—such nice reviews that we got.
morgan
[Emphatically] Man!
oliver
If folks have not had a chance yet, please do consider leaving us a short review on iTunes, because it is a key way that new listeners can find their way to us.
morgan
We also wanted to thank all of our social media fans out there, and our family, including the following: We want to thank Don’t Call Me Shirley. Thank you so much. We want to thank @JazzTehara. We want to thank @KeithTheGooner. Thank you so much, Keith. We want to thank @scoleroptera. Okay, shout-out to you. We also want to thank @Jacobi81. Thank you for holding us down. Jacobi’s always in the game. @MistyCreates, thank you for holding us down. We also want to thank Diego Martinez, Courtney at ca-hourtney. Okay, cool. Someone who shouts-out aunty, aunty, aunty. We want to thank Dan Jiti, Johnny California, salute! Want to thank Dirty Pop, Granger Boy, Shaboian Nights. We also want to thank Peeping in my Window. We do so appreciate the tweezies and the retweezies. Good to see you, Oliver.
oliver
Good to see you, too, Morgan. And one last thing, here is a teaser for next week’s episode. The next installment in the Music and Popcorn series, featuring The Ringer’s own podcaster and movie writer, Sean Fennessey, talking with us about the 1992 film by Ernest Dickerson, Juice.
oliver
Juice doesn’t really fit in, I think, easily to any of these other films that have a lot in common with each other in some ways. But this one—and partly it’s because of what they decide to do with Bishop and his character that I feel like really takes it in a completely different direction sometimes.
sean fennessey
I agree with you. I think that’s really astute. I don’t know why that is. I don;t know what it is about this dynamic. Dickerson did not write a lot of his own movies, but he did have the story by credit and a co-screenwriting credit in this movie.
oliver
Yeah. Yeah, I noticed that. Right.
sean
And even in talking to people before we did this, a lot of them pointed out to me that he really did not write a lot of other films going forward. He goes on to make a couple of more movies inside of the studio system, and then, as you mentioned, he essentially works in television now. He very rarely makes feature films now. There’s a part of me that wishes he wrote more of his own work, and I would have liked to have seen what those movies are like, because he si older than these characters but he does seem to have a general understanding of where these characters are coming from.
speaker 2
Comedy and culture.
speaker 3
Artist owned—
speaker 4
—Audience supported.
About the show
Hosted by Oliver Wang and Morgan Rhodes, every episode of Heat Rocks invites a special guest to talk about a heat rock – a hot album, a scorching record. These are in-depth conversations about the albums that shape our lives.
Our guests include musicians, writers, and scholars and though we don’t exclusively focus on any one genre, expect to hear about albums from the worlds of soul, hip-hop, funk, jazz, Latin, and more.
New episodes every Thursday on Apple Podcasts or whatever you get your podcasts.
Subscribe to our website updates for exclusive bonus content (including extra interview segments, mini-episodes, etc.)
Meanwhile, you can email us at heatrockspod@gmail.com or follow us on social media:
People
How to listen
Stream or download episodes directly from our website, or listen via your favorite podcatcher!
