Transcript
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under the Stairs. [Music continues under the dialogue, then fades out.]
oliver wang
Hello! I’m Oliver Wang.
morgan rhodes
And I’m Morgan Rhodes. You’re listening to Heat Rocks.
oliver
Every episode, we invite a guest to talk to us about a heat rock, an album that just burns its way into our collective memory. And today, we will be kick-pushing our way back to 2006 to talk about the debut album by Chicago’s Lupe Fiasco, Food & Liquor.
music
“Sunshine” from the album Food & Liquor by Lupe Fiasco. It's nothing, right, so here go it Whisper in the air, “It’s kinda crowded in here" Would she care to blow it? She said, "Yeah" You're my sunshine (you're my sunshine) You're my moonlight (you're my moonlight) You're the starry skies above me won't you please come down [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
When you talk about hip-hop’s capital cities, New York and Los Angeles always come up. The Bay gets love, as does Atlanta and New Orleans. But let’s not flyover and forget Chicago. It’s the city that’s given us everything from hip house to footwork to drill. Where Common, Kanye, and Chance all emerged from, as well as today’s artist in focus, who helped bridge the Chi Town generations: Lupe Fiasco. This fall marks the 14th anniversary of his magnum opus, Food & Liquor. Its title, a nod to the urban landscape of his hometown. Its cover image, a compendium of all the myriad influences that—in hindsight—augered a new hip-hop cohort that grew up on comic books and anime, skateboards and streetwear. That may not seem that notable by today’s standards, but in ’06, it was far from the norm. And as we can now see in hindsight, Lupe lit the proverbial path that, over the next ten years, would help pave the way for where hip-hop would go. In writing about the album on its 10th anniversary, Yoh Phillips sagely noted that while Food & Liquor wasn’t a paradigm shift, it nudged things in new directions. Or to put it in Phillips’s words, quote, “We all can’t be the big bang that changes the entire world. Some of us are destined to be just the spark.” Unquote.
music
“Intro” from the album Food & Liquor by Lupe Fiasco. My mind my thoughts, my feelings My experience, nothing more, and nothing less Yes, FNF, uh-huh! So With no further ado [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
Lupe Fiasco’s Food & Liquor was the album pick of our guest today: director Tiffany Johnson. If you’re not up on Tiffany Johnson, where have you been? She’s been writing some things, creating some things. She’s been directing some things across various networks. Boomerang and The Twenties for BET, The Last OG for TBS. Black Monday for Showtime. And the show that I am deeply in love with, called Dear White People for Netflix. Needless to say, our paths have crossed. I don’t quote Stanley Kubrick often, but he said, “A film is or should be more like music than fiction.” If that’s true, my hope for all of us is that our guest keeps making great music one album at a time. We for sure want to hear and see the world through her lens. Welcome to Heat Rocks, Tiffany Johnson.
tiffany johnson
Oh, wow! Wow! Thank you! What an incredible intro! [Chuckles.] Thank you.
morgan
Welcome to the show. We’re glad to have you here. As we often start the show, we have to ask: why Lupe Fiasco and why Food & Liquor?
tiffany
Yeah! Well, let me just start by saying thank you for having me. And the idea to select an album to talk about was not an easy task. And I really wanted to—I really wanted to focus on an album from a specific time in my life, and that was when I started going to film school, which was around the time this album came out. And I also knew I wanted to—in making my selection, I wanted to focus on a debut album for some reason, Food & Liquor for me—well, Lupe as an artist, that first single “Kick, Push”, I remember vividly where I was and hearing that for the first time and just the—you know, the orchestra sound and the strings and just it felt different. It sounded different. And it wasn’t like anything really on the radio at that time. And then, the album drops and it’s just—it was so cinematic in a weird way. Like, it just—I remember driving to film school every day, still living in Compton at the time and making that commute to Hollywood. Which god bless me for doing that. [They laugh.] That was quite a journey! But this was an album that like I just—I played straight, you know, from front to back. And I just—it just—it was—again, the use the word “cinematic” because it’s just like it was songs that just—he was telling stories. And I just remember being kind of really caught up in that. And it’s—honestly? It’s an album I haven’t thought about in a while. So, when I sat down to do this list and like really think about a specific time in my life, I was like, “Oh my god! Food & Liquor!” Like, how could I have forgotten about this album and how dope it was!? And like Lupe just being sort of, you know, new on the scene but coming out very strong with a point of view and a message, and very clear in what he was trying to say. And I was like, “Wow! I think this may be the go!” And I was very surprised that you guys—that this was one of—you know, the selection! So, yeah. That was the way I came about to choosing Lupe Fiasco, Food & Liquor.
music
“Kick, Push” from the album Food & Liquor by Lupe Fiasco. He knew he couldn't doubt it Couldn't understand it Brand it, just the first kickflip he land it Uh, labeled a misfit, a bandit Kakunk, Kakunk, Kakunk His neighbors couldn't stand it so He was banished to the park [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
Morgan, what was your introduction to Lupe?
morgan
Oh, definitely “Touch the Sky”, which I thought as a track was a perfect setup for a star turn. I mean, if you mess up a Just Blaze production and a Curtis Mayfield sample? We just gotta start praying for you. But he didn’t! [Tiffany agrees with a laugh.]
music
“Touch the Sky” by Kanye West. En garde or touché, Lupe cool as the unthawed But I still feel possessed as a gun charge Come as correct as a porn star In a fresh pair steps in my best foreign car So, I represent the first Now let me end my verse right where the horns are, like uh I gotta testify [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
I mean, fire. We had Cam O’bi on the show, and we talked about this album, and we talked about “Touch the Sky”. That track is just such fire anyway, in and of itself. Just the production is so hype. [Tiffany agrees.] And that was my introduction to Lupe. And I thought, “This kid’s nice.” Like, I’ve never heard him before, but I loved his name. I thought his name was cool. [Tiffany agrees several times.] You know, it’s crazy. I thought his real name was Lupe Fiasco. I didn’t even question that. I was like, “This is just so legit.” It’s not, but it’s a cool name anyway.
tiffany
I think I did too, actually. I for sure, definitely thought that was his real name.
morgan
Yep! See, thank you, Tiffany. I’m not alone out here.
tiffany
You’re welcome. [Chuckles.]
oliver
I was gonna say earlier, Tiffany, it’s interesting that you kept referring to the sound of Food & Liquor as being cinematic, because I was reading the original Pitchfork review, which I believe was written by one of our former guests, Sean Fennessey—who’s now over at The Ringer. But when he reviewed it, he described a lot of the production on the album as score-hop, except it wasn’t a compliment? He actually had some issues with sort of how the album sounded sonically, which we can—or don’t need to—get into. But regardless, I mean, he’s pointing out the fact that a lot of the music on the album does sound cinematic because of just a lot of the kind of orchestral qualities that you were referring to earlier. [Tiffany agrees.] So, I was definitely thinking about that review and the kind of—the score hop dig that he was taking. And like Morgan, I think—you know, my introduction to Lupe was certainly through Kanye and was through Late Registration. And I don’t—I honestly don’t recall if Lupe made an instant impression on me based off of that album. But when I heard “Kick, Push” and certainly when “I Gotcha” dropped, I just thought, “Okay, whoever this guy is, is worth checking for.”
music
“I Gotcha” from the album Food & Liquor by Lupe Fiasco. And I be on my green like Irish Spring and I coast Fudge with it and get a mouth full of soap You want the flavor-ma, hey I gotcha You want the realness, well I gotcha I know you sick of them n-ggas big car and watch ya Either they pimps or they macks or they mobsters You want the real shit, well I gotcha [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
I also wanted to talk a little bit about “Kick, Push”, because it was such an anthem. I’m from LA. I grew up here. And—
tiffany
Yeah, same.
morgan
I remember seeing a lot of kids. You know, when I go visit my mom, seeing a lot of kids around this time—you know, picking up skateboards. And I thought, “This is really cool!” [Tiffany agrees.] Because at the time, I only knew a few kids that were skaters. And that was Stevie Williams, because everybody was starting to know him. He had the big Nike endorsement. And Kareem Campbell. But I didn’t really know that many other kids. And I think “Skate, Push” just ushered in this whole generation of kids that wanted to skate. You know? And kids from the hood that wanted to skate. I wanted to play a little bit of Lupe’s interview where he talks about the behind-the-scenes tea of the release of this song, of “Kick, Push”.
clip
Speaker: Obviously, your first single, “Kick, Push”—skateboarding and things. Before it was acceptable, before every rapper and artist was out there doing that. How tough was that? ‘Cause I know you got some backlash and stuff initially from the community, people that thought you were just trying to come in and didn’t realize who you were. Lupe Fiasco: Yeah, you know, there was like some very insecure skaters—Tony Hawk not being one of them, fortunately—you know, who just felt like we were trying to—or I was trying to encroach on their territory when I really did the song as a tribute for a skate shop. It was even—it was never supposed to be the single. It was never meant to be a single. It was for a skate shop, called Uprise, for a skate DVD. And then it just took a life of its own. But you know, the backlash from it’s what you do. When you’re the first through the wall, you always get a little bloody.
morgan
So, I didn’t know that. I thought “Kick, Push” was the single, because that’s what I heard first. And in hindsight, I’m not surprised that there was a little bit of push from skateboard culture. That’s not surprising at all. But it opened up the door for a whole generation of skateboarders after him, including kids like Boo Johnson, who’s from the west coast, and Samarria Brevard, who’s a sister that’s doing it as well. So, I think he did—he goes on to say in the interview that he paved the way for like Lil Wayne [chuckling] to skateboard.
tiffany
Yeah! I was just about to say, Lil Wayne was not—I mean, this is what? Maybe The Carter II is around at this time? Like, he wasn’t kicking and pushing! No! [They laugh.] Not at all!
morgan
And then all of the sudden he was. You know? We had Pharrell—
tiffany
[Laughing.] Oh, but then he was.
morgan
Pharrell was Skateboard P. [Tiffany echoes the nickname.] But I think this—I think this was just—it was something for kids in the hood to engage in skateboarding, which I really credit—I credit Lupe for.
tiffany
Yeah! And even just the aesthetic and style of hip-hop, too. Again, just going back to like it changed even the way like we dress. And again, going into like—you know, buying Vans or—I mean, we always did Chucks and Converse, but like it just—it made it almost—you know, cool to wear Vans, which was like not a thing. [They chuckle.] You were not wearing Vans! [Morgan agrees.] No! [Laughs.] Nah. So, yeah, and that I think—I think we all secretly were seeking something—someone to do it first, like you said, to just kind of push through and open the door for us. And then we all just kind of came through it. I mean, I personally did not get on a skateboard, but [laughs]—but I liked the shift in the culture, and I liked the idea of this sort of crossover now into this world.
morgan
100%. 100%.
oliver
I’m really glad that we’re touching on the skateboard part of it, because part of what I was thinking earlier is that hip-hop and skate culture—especially in the ’90s—were always rather adjacent to one another. A lot of skate kids I knew were into punk and hip-hop. And a lot of hip-hop kids I knew were kind of a little bit into skating culture. They weren’t—there wasn’t a complete overlap, but it was one of those Venn diagrams where you could find people who were in the middle. [Morgan laughs.] But a lot of it, to me, felt pretty racial at the time, which is that skating culture was so defined by Whiteness so that the Beastie Boys—you know, as early as their early ’90s work—you know, they were like the big skater hip-hop crossover group. But you didn’t really hear, talk, or see a lot about Black kids skating. And I think that was the key difference with the generation that Lupe Fiasco represented, as well as—as you guys were talking about a moment ago—Pharrell Williams as Skateboard P—is that it reminded us that Black kids have been skating for decades, it’s just no one ever really paid attention to them, because all the big stars of skating culture coming out of the ’90s were primarily White. And one of the things that Lupe did a couple years ago—this was a reflection on Food & Liquor; when it turned 10 years old, he recorded this hour+ monologue basically about all the different influences that were on there. And let’s take a quick listen to how he talks about where he brings in parts of youth culture into that album.
clip
Music: Upbeat, percussive music. Lupe: It’s very interesting to have like—to see like there’s a genuine connection between all of this stuff that’s on here and kind of reflects a lot of the things that I was interested in—you know, different stories about my life and kind of like my generation coming up. And it is very young, I think. It’s very—some of us can be somewhat childish and childlike, but I embrace that. I think that that’s cool.
oliver
I think what I find really striking about this clip is how Lupe really embraces the idea that the ways in which he brings in the things that he was into as a kid—he’s not embarrassed by this. He’s embracing the ability to talk about the things that he liked and loved as a kid. And I think what’s so notable here is that it runs very counter, I think, from an older hip-hop ethos where kids and teenagers are always trying to front like they’re adults. And you certainly saw this when you’re talking about actual kid rappers, like Shyheim the Rugged Child from Staten Island, or early Mobb Deep, where their experiences of childhood were always treated as something to be—that was embarrassing and that they, as teenagers, were trying to transcend or avoid associations with being thought of as being young. And I think one of the things that’s changed really dramatically over the last 15 years, beginning with Lupe, is that rappers have no problem celebrating their youthfulness. Being young is not a detriment to their brand; being young is their brand. And I think partly it’s because they wanted to stake an identity claim about what separated them from older rappers. And part of what they turned to was their own teen subcultures: skating, comic books, anime. [Morgan agrees.] You know, I mean those are the things that you’re not hearing rappers talking about until that generation that began with Lupe. They brought that into it I think as a way to distinguish themselves and separate themselves from the Jay-Zs, from the older gen, as to say, “This is our turf. This is what we know. And we are unabashedly celebrating the fact that this is what we grew up on and this what makes us different than you.”
morgan
I agree. That’s a great point. And it reminds me too of—this came later, but it reminds me of the Odd Future camp, who also—there was a lot of currency around them being young, too. Because the lifestyle was young. It was birthed around Fairfax and Fairfax High School. [Tiffany and Oliver agree.] And they also were skaters, and they also were into anime and cartoons. And so, there’s a lot to be said for being young now. Where I think, back in the day—you know, even with—even if we mentioned Bow Wow or Illegal, there was such a thing about being grown and being young but living this hard life. And now, that’s changed. And I think Lupe has a lot to do with that. He ushered in—I think he also paved the way for Odd Future to be young and to be weird. [Tiffany agrees enthusiastically.] And to be alternative. And so, we gotta credit him for that, too.
tiffany
And I was just about to say, alternative. [They agree.] Yeah, for sure, for sure. Even maybe Cudi I would say, probably. [Morgan agrees.] ‘Cause Cudi came after Lupe and really is coming in with an alternative hip-hop sound—right?—that I think, uh—yeah. Lupe definitely kind of, again, opened that door.
morgan
If you look at the art—if you look at the artwork for Day ‘n’ Nite, Cudi’s Day ‘n’ Nite, it looks a lot like the cover of Food & Liquor. Except—
tiffany
Like Food & Liquor, yeah!
morgan
It’s like Cudi’s got on the space helmet, right? But he’s got a lot of objects floating behind, the color’s almost similar or the same. So, I think your point, Tiffany, is a good one—that he certainly opened the door for that.
oliver
This is a much longer conversation, but at some point, we really do need to unpack whatever alternative hip-hop means. Like, what is the alternative part, and alternative to what? Because I’m thinking back in the ’90s—
tiffany
That is a great question.
oliver
Alternative hip-hip meant Arrested Development. It meant the Fugees to a lesser extent. But those groups don’t sound—sonically, don’t sound like Odd Future. They don’t sound like Lupe or the kind of early ’00s or I guess the 20-teens version of alternative. So, it’s—you know, alternative is kind of this very vague label that I think we kind of intuitively understand what it means or what it references, but it’s—if you really think about it, it’s rather ill-defined, because there’s not like a constant to what that is. I think, to me, what alternative is, is instead of rappers rapping about—you know—their Gucci shoes, they’re now rapping about their HYPEBEAST sneakers that they got from Supreme off of Fairfax, because they waited in line to cop like the limited edition Yeezys. That’s the alternative part, is that it replaces one kind of material object with another. But that replacement is not—it’s not insignificant, because it represents, I think, a whole different world that you’re brought into, which is—again—some of the things that you hear across Food & Liquor.
tiffany
Yeah! That’s a great—I think you’re right. I would almost say maybe alternative—for me, I think about the—maybe the sound itself and maybe the instruments that are used. Like, you know—again, going back to Lupe using an orchestra sort of sound and strings and like these sort of elements to me kind of made it—it was—it’s different than what—normally, hip-hop is more bass heavy. You know, it’s less about the beat and more about just a sound, if that makes any sense. I don’t know. But yeah, you’re right, I think that “alternative” is a big word to unpack and break it down to what it really means or how to really define it, in terms of hip-hop. But that—I think when I think about alternative hip-hop, I think about just the—even with Cudi and Day ‘n’ Nite and like the sound, you know, the samples in that. Like, that feels against the grain of what a traditional hip-hop sound is, in a way. [Morgan agrees.]
music
“Just Might Be OK” from the album Food & Liquor by Lupe Fiasco. We just might be OK, after all Sun gone shine, on this day It's finna get heavy as heaven I am Atlas at this manage to balance [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
We talk about a lot of artists that were—that are influenced by Lupe, but one that’s surprised me was Lil Yachty. And Lil Yachty was shouting him out and saying—shouting him out for being a pioneer of fashion and Japanese culture in hip-hop.
clip
Lupe: Yachty, what’s up brother? Lil Yachty: Yo, bro, I just wanted to come in here and talk about how far ahead you are when it comes to fashion. I’m talking 10, 12, 13 years. I don’t appreciate how you don’t get your respect. You know. See, a n-gga like me— Speaker: What’s up, Yachty, how are you? Lil Yachty: Bro, I’m a n-gga that really research when it come down to this shit, bro. I’m talking about been there at The Coal Yard, been there at The Fragment. Come on, bro! You need your respect, bro! I don’t like that. Kiiing! Lupe: That’s cool. Lil Yachty: King!
oliver
We will be back with more of our conversation with filmmaker Tiffany Johnson after a brief word from some of our sibling Max Fun podcasts. Keep it locked.
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under the Stairs.
promo
Music: Sophisticated electronic/string music. Teresa McElroy: Shmanners. Noun. Definition: rules of etiquette designed not to judge others, but rather to guide ourselves through everyday social situations. [Music stops.] Travis McElroy: Hello, internet! I’m your husband host, Travis McElroy. Teresa: And I’m your wife host, Teresa McElroy. Travis: Every week on Shmanners, we take a look at a topic that has to do with society or manners. We talk about the history of it. We take a look at how it applies to everyday life. And we take some of your questions. And sometimes, we do a biography about a really cool person that had an impact on how we view etiquette. [Music fades back in.] Travis: So, join us every Friday and listen to Shmanners on MaximumFun.org, or wherever podcasts are found. Teresa: Manners shmanners. Get it? [Music ends on a bright chord.]
promo
Music: Strumming acoustic guitar. Jordan Morris: Hey! Thanks for coming. Three voices overlapping: Thank you. Thank you. Thanks. Jesse Thorn: These are real podcast listeners, not actors! Jordan: We took the identifying marks off this podcast. Just… tell me your impressions. Speaker 1: It’s really sexy. Speaker 2: My first thought is, like, Radiolab? Speaker 3: Definitely something popular. Speaker 1: Yeah. Really popular. A hit show. Speaker 2: But funny, too. Like, does Tina Fey have a podcast? Speaker 3: [Stifling laughter] Or the Marx Brothers? Speaker 2: Yeah, is this podcast Radiolab, but hosted by the Marx Brothers? Speaker 1: And sexy? Like Chaude? It reminds me of Chaude. Speaker 3: Exactly. [Stifling laughter.] And they’re all riding in a BMW? Jordan: Close! But not quite. Take a look behind these panels! [Sound of metal doors lifting.] All three listeners: [Gasp!] Jordan: And then watch this rocket blast off into space! [Sound effect of rocket taking off.] Speaker 1: Whoa! Speaker 2: Oooh! [Timer dings.] Jordan: And_—there’s the pies we made you! [Listeners make excited noises.] Jordan: Now. Let’s show you the podcast! [Whooshing noise.]_ All three listeners: Oooooh. Speaker 2: Wow! It was Jordan, Jesse, Go! Speaker 1: Jordan, Jesse, Go!? Jordan: Hold on! [Sounds of metal things falling and clanging. Listeners make concerned noises.] Speaker 3: Oh my goodness. Jordan: That…was 514 JD Power & Associates Podcasting Awards! Speaker 2: That was really scary. Speaker 1: But…compelling! Speaker 3: I guess I should definitely subscribe to Jordan, Jesse, Go!. Jordan: Um…yeah. I’d say so. Jesse: Jordan, Jesse, Go!: a real podcast! [Guitar music fades out.]
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under the Stairs.
morgan
Yes, and we’re back on Heat Rocks, talking Food & Liquor with director Tiffany Johnson.
oliver
Tiffany, if I can ask—you are probably I think maybe the third filmmaker that we’ve had on the show. And I’m always curious to know: when you’re working on your projects, how much are you thinking about the music that you wanna hear within it?
tiffany
Oh. First of all, I love this question. [Morgan laughs.] I—music is—honestly, I think about how it sounds first, actually, before I think about maybe what it looks like. [Oliver hums with interest.] I have to hear it. And anyone who knows me knows I’m all about a playlist. I start everything—every project I join or start, I’m always like, “Let me start with a playlist.” And that’s both in my narrative stuff and also in things that I work on, you know, television-wise. Yeah, music plays such a pivotal role. And it helps—you know, it helps you figure out how—it can establish a character in a way. It can kind of—if you give—what is your character listening to? Right? Or what is their sort of theme? I’m always thinking about it from that perspective. And just music for me, it—going back to, you know, how Lupe—I can see his songs. I kind of can find—I use songs to kind of help me paint scenes sometimes or to help me—yeah! To just help me kind of see what the emotion may be, even. So, music is very crucial. It plays a big role in how I approach a project, how I begin a project. So, yeah, it’s—I always build a playlist.
oliver
I love this idea of the sonic mood board that you use before you start on something new.
morgan
[Laughs.] You mentioned that you could see—you can see this album. This album is cinematic. Which song in the album—on the album—would you either direct a music video for or make a film out of?
tiffany
Oof! Yeees! Um. I’m gonna have to go with—first of all, Morgan, that’s a great question. Thank you so much for asking. [They chuckle.] I feel like I wanna go with “Daydreamin’”. [Morgan and Oliver hum thoughtfully.] There’s something very odd—there’s something very odd about that sample. And Jill’s—I also love a sort of a whimsical, fantastical element. And there’s something very whimsy about that song. Yeah! And I just—I feel like it’s—to me, it stands out on the album, both just Jill’s vocals, but also what the song is about. And again, just that sample is so odd and eerie. So—and it feels like I could—there’s—I can play in the—it feels genre-y in a way. Like, I can make this feel like an uncomfortable sort of world, if that makes any sense.
music
“Daydreamin’” from the album Food & Liquor by Lupe Fiasco. I dream of you amid the flowers (I dream of you amid the flowers) For a couple of hours (for a couple of hours) Such a beautiful day (such a beautiful day) Now come on everybody, let's make cocaine cool We need a few more half-naked women up in the pool And hold this MAC-10 that's all covered in jewels [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
tiffany
But a close second—sorry, wait, ‘cause I do—there’s a backup. I would probably go with… oof. Maybe “Sunshine”. [They affirm.] ‘Cause that one—there’s a lot—you know, there’s a romance there and there’s a very like—oh, is it “Sunshine”? Or maybe it’s “The Cool”. I don’t know. Now I’m like going down a tangent in my head of like what would be a great sort of soundtrack for a short—a sort of—you know. Either one of those songs would be dope. [Chuckles.]
morgan
But there’s so many good ones on here! And it’s so—
tiffany
There really are.
morgan
The album is so dramatic to me. So, I’m not surprised that there’s several that you would choose from. I would’ve thought another track, but okay. Okay.
tiffany
[Excited.] Ooh, wait! What would you have thought?
morgan
You know what? I might have thought “American Terrorist”. I might have thought that one. Because that one, to me—even if you just—even if you take away the lyrics and what’s being said, it’s just so dramatic. And it’s just got so much—it just packs—I was gonna talk about that later as one of my favorites, but that would’ve been the one. But I’m just a music supervisor. You’re a director. But the first thing I thought— [Oliver chuckles.]
tiffany
No, but you’re right!
morgan
When I heard it was like—I was like this, I was like, [voice warbling in awe], “What is this?! What is this?” [Tiffany agrees.] And so, it was very dramatic, cinematic to me.
music
“American Terrorist” from the album Food & Liquor by Lupe Fiasco. Need to open up a park? Just close 10 schools We don't need 'em Can you please call the fire department they're down here marching for freedom Burn down their TV's, turn their TV's on to teach 'em The more money that they make The more money that they make The better and better they live [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
Well, since we just touched on “Daydreamin’” and talking about the sample, if you all don’t mind following me down a little bit of a rabbit hole with this. [Morgan affirms.] Because I too was very intrigued as to the song and where that very notable sample came from. And I realized that it is—it’s quite the rabbit’s hole, here. So—I mean, number one, the song has—I think, to me at least—really serious Portishead vibes, with Jill Scott filling in in the Beth Gibbons role. And what’s notable here—so, the track itself was produced by Craig Calman, who—at the time, if I have this right—he was the CEO of Atlantic Records? Not some fly by night beatmaker. He’s the person running the label that your album is coming out on. Which I think is pretty wild. [They react with surprise.] But the original sample that powers the song is a song called “Daydream”, recorded in 1970 by The Günter Kallmann Choir. And as best as I can tell, Craig Calman is not related to Günter Kallmann, but what are the odds that they have the same surname? And maybe it’s just a super common German surname. I have no idea. But that seemed really odd. But even that, it goes a little bit deeper, because if you look at the progression of how did one song end up leading to this Lupe Fiasco track, the original, original version of “Daydream” was by this Belgian group called the Wallace Collection. And that was a song from 1968.
music
“Daydream” from the album Laughing Cavalier by Wallace Collection. Daydream, I fell asleep amid the flowers For a couple of hours [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades into the next song.]
oliver
Two years later is when The Günter Kallmann Choir covers it.
music
“Daydream” covered by The Günter Kallmann Choir. Daydream, I dreamed of you amid the flowers For a couple of hours [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue.]
oliver
And in 2001, The Günter Kallmann version was sampled by the group I Monster for a song entitled “Daydreaming in Blue”.
music
[Volume increases.] amid the flowers For a couple of hours on a beautiful day [Song fades into “Daydreaming in Blue”.]
music
“Daydreaming in Blue” from the album These Are Our Children by I Monster. I dream a dirty dream of you baby You're crawling on the bathroom floor [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
And that’s the song that gets used on “Daydreamin’” by Lupe Fiasco. So, there’s like four different songs that are part of the lineage to create this. So, the fact that you were so struck by the sample of it, that sample has like some deep history going on. I just thought it was worth noting. [Tiffany “wow”s.]
morgan
Thanks for letting me know! ‘Cause if I ever try and clear “Daydreamin’”, I know what I’m—[laughs] I know the drama that’s gonna unfold. So, thanks for letting me know. [They agree.] That sample—
oliver
Yeah, maybe don’t place that one. Yeah.
morgan
No, no. No, no. [Tiffany laughs.] Thank you for—in fact, I’m making a note right now. Don’t do “Daydreamin’”. [Oliver laughs.] That sample reminds me a lot of the beginning of another oft sampled song, which is The Moody Blues’ “Dear Diary”.
music
“Dear Diary” from the album On the Threshold of a Dream by The Moody Blues. Dear diary… [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
Came out of 1969, British group. I think that was one of their few hits. It was later sampled by Free the Robots in ’07, but they added in Les Baxter. They added in Egg’s “Fugue in D Minor” and they added in The Geto Boys. Right? I also won’t be able to clear that one. Then that was sampled by the late, great Capital STEEZ to become this song.
music
“Free the Robots” from the album AmeriKKKan Korruption by Capital STEEZ. Illuminati trying to read my mind with a eagle eye And the haze got me thinking, why We killed Osama and plenty innocent people died We should see the signs, but we Stevie blind No disrespect to the man or the legend, but I'm sick and tired [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
You can hear that “my mind’s playing tricks on me”. I mean, it’s just a collision of a lot of samples. [Tiffany agrees.] And if you get a chance, Tiffany—and also anybody else that’s listening—to see the video for this song, that’s the late and the great Capital Steez of the Pro Era crew. One of my favorite uses of that. But all the roads that it took to get to that reminded me a lot of your “Daydreaming in Blue” story, Oliver.
tiffany
Wow! I feel like I’m getting a lesson on this podcast as well, and I love it! [They laugh.]
oliver
Well, bringing stuff back to Food & Liquor, let’s get into this question. What is the fire track off of this album? Tiffany, what’s the song that even today still just gets you hyped?
tiffany
Ooh! I mean, definitely “Kick, Push”. But I also love “Pressure”. [Oliver hums with interest.] I love Jay-Z’s verse on “Pressure”. And I love that like he—yeah, he really like sets off that record for me. I also, again, love that like intro to that song. It’s like nuts. It’s so powerful.
music
“Pressure” from the album Food & Liquor by Lupe Fiasco. Roc-A-Fella [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
tiffany
That—those two, I would say if I’m—when I crack open the album, I definitely always start with “Kick, Push”. And then when I just wanna like turn up, I go—I always go to “Pressure”. And then, if I’m a little—you know, feeling in my feelings, I’ll go to “Daydreamin’” or “Sunshine”. [Morgan laughs.] Just one of the more—you know. And like just a little softer. But that, and then actually another sleeper track that is—when we talk about alternative, really feels alternative, is “The Instrumental”. Which was produced by Mike from Linkin Park.
oliver
Mike Shinoda!
tiffany
Right? Mike Shinoda. [They confirm.] Which feels very Linkin Park-ish, [laughs] that track. But that is a very—to me, one of probably the most alternative tracks on the record just ‘cause it’s very much a hybrid of rock and hip-hop like really merged together. [Morgan agrees.]
music
“The Instrumental” from the album Food & Liquor by Lupe Fiasco. Scared to look away 'Cause at that moment, it might get stolen And that's the last of the boxes So, he chained himself to the box, took a lock and then he locked it Swallowed the combination and then forgot, it As the doctors jot it all down, with they pens and pencils The same ones that took away his voice And just left this instrumental, like that [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
I’m glad you mentioned “Pressure”, because when I was listening back through this, I had totally forgotten that number one, Jay-Z was on the album, and number two, that he was one of the executive producers of it. Because it doesn’t really feel like a Jay-Z project by today’s standards. But you know, he was heavily involved with it back then. And to your point, Tiffany—I mean, Jay put together a nice 16, you know, on that cameo tip. So, it was kind of a nice reminder/surprise that, “Oh, yeah, yeah! Jay was on here.” And he actually acquitted himself quite nicely.
music
“Pressure” from the album Food & Liquor by Lupe Fiasco. So, the pen is mightier than the sword my lord My first picture was a line-up, now I'm on the Forbes And I still remain the artiste through these all If you force my hand I'll be forced to "draw" [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
Yeah, that’s straight up like Just Blaze lite, circa 2002, production right there just four years late. But yeah, that very much sounds like a Jay-Z from the early 2000s track.
tiffany
Yeeeah. And I think—wasn’t it also—I’m not sure exactly, was Hova already like kind of retired around this time? So, I feel like that was a big deal, that he had Jay on the album too. I think, if I remember correctly.
oliver
’06 was the year that he un-retired. So, this was—
tiffany
Oh, he un-retired. There it is.
oliver
Right, this was part of his comeback year. Yeah. Which everyone knew was coming, because no one was like, “He’s gonna stop making music.” No. No. [They agree.] Maybe he’ll take a year or two off, but that’s about it. Yeah.
morgan
The classic Jay-Z, you know, conspicuous consumption that he has to—you know, sneaking out bars. “My first picture was a line-up, now I’m on Forbes.” That’s the classic Jay-Z. You know what I’m saying? Who else was saying that? Right? [They agree.] But my fire track—I’m so conflicted. I mean, but that’s so on brand. Uuum. [Tiffany laughs.] Okay, work with me on this. What I kept bumping, okay? In prep for the chat, was “The Emperor’s Soundtrack”. That one sounded so good in here that I know my neighbor hates me, but I hope she loves the song as a result. That’s the one that I kept bumping, because there’s a lot of samples on here. We didn’t get into all of them, but that UFO sample and how they flipped it—“between the walls”—is just—that one’s precious.
music
“The Emperor’s Soundtrack” from the album Food & Liquor by Lupe Fiasco. With fifteen in the clip and one in the hole Hallway wall full of RIP's, some some of us know None of us know the makers of the toast Like the bottom of the stove that was used in the murdering of the scroll Heart colder than Edy's Won't let the seedy city defeat me Rub me out like genies [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
I gotta go with “I Gotcha”. That’s—it was true back in ’06. It’s still true in 2020. And it struck me that we’ve actually never I think discussed The Neptunes much at all on the show. And we’ll have to rectify that at some future point. And The Neptunes only produced this one song on the entire album, but “I Gotcha” is just—it’s so fire to me. I love that they have an accordion in there it sounds like. And just the kind of propulsive-ness and the density and the brightness all combining on this one track, I just love this so much. And it also has my favorite moment, which is just how it begins with that—those four hits. [The track syncs with Oliver’s voice.] Bum. Bum. Bum. Bum.
music
“I Gotcha” from the album Food & Liquor by Lupe Fiasco. Ho! Yeah! Yes, sir! You know what it is... Lupe! Chicago man! Yeah! Man! [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
Oh yeeeah. [Oliver hums in agreement.] Mm-hm. Special.
tiffany
It’s a good album! [They laugh.] It’s such a good album.
oliver
Speaking of favorite moments, how about the two of you? Do you all have any favorite moments off of this? Morgan, you wanna start?
morgan
Well, as you know, I’ve made the case for the greatness of intros and interludes and skits. But I haven’t spent enough time on outros. My favorite moment of the album is the track “Outro”. Because if you can spend 12+ minutes thanking everyone in your life that has made this thing possible, and you do it over a sick beat? You had me at hello. So, that is my favorite—I mean, it’s like an oral representation of liner notes at a time when people weren’t checking for them as much. And I love that he remembers—that’s—those are first album dynamics. You remember everybody that put you on. And plus, the track is fire! So, that would be my favorite. The whole 12 minutes and 13 seconds of that outro is for me the best moment on the album.
music
“Outro” from the album Food & Liquor by Lupe Fiasco. Esco, much love goes out, to Rita Lee The Buchanans, Suzis 'N Uzi Everybody that (Wiz, Drake, what up?) helped this project from day one Can't forget, Bolo, Footloose [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
When I first saw the track listing, and specifically the timestamps, I just assumed that it was 12 minutes because it was one of those cases where the outro was really just a hidden track, so it had like—you know—11 minutes of silence and then you finally got to it. But then I realized, no, he—this is a 12-minute thank you song, to your point, Morgan. [Morgan agrees.] And I just thought—I was like, “I’ve never heard anything quite like this before. Though I think—I forget which of the albums it was, but Kanye also has a super-duper long outro on one of his first I think four LPs. But it’s not quite like this, because that’s more like Kanye just going off into Kanye land. Whereas this is Lupe really just thanking everyone who got him to where he was to be able to make the album, which is very heartfelt. Yeah.
morgan
It’s so earnest and it’s—and the humility. He’s shouting out radio. He’s shouting out—[chuckles] you know. He’s shouting out Vibe and The Source.
oliver
His barber. You know.
morgan
Miss Jones Hot 97. Come on, now! So, that one’s precious to me. What about you, Tiffany?
tiffany
Yeah! I think I kind of—I touched on it. Again, I just—I go back to that piano drop in “Pressure” and just how—I mean, I don’t know, we’re asking—I don’t know, Christian, can you play that? No, I’m kidding. Can he play that?
morgan
Yeah, he can play it!
music
“Pressure” from the album Food & Liquor by Lupe Fiasco. Jay Lupe! [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
tiffany
[Oliver chuckles.] Yeeeah. I—it gives me chills every time! Just that little like, [mimics a few bars]. I don’t know! And I also like wanna see the person that’s playing it for some reason. Like, I don’t know—it just like [chuckles]—it’s—yeah, that’s… But I would also piggyback on the outro. I think—I love that he did that, and I love that it’s literally a track dedicated to everybody that helped him on this, and—yeah. [Morgan agrees.] That—you don’t see that. You don’t—they don’t do that anymore. [Chuckles.] I don’t think people do that at all, actually.
oliver
If we can go just real quick back to “Pressure” for a second, one of the things that I forgot was on there—speaking of moments—is they use the sound effect that you hear in practically every Hollywood movie. I think it’s become basically like a sonic meme at this point. Which is the sort of hawk screaming sound.
music
“Pressure” from the album Food & Liquor by Lupe Fiasco. [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
And the first time I heard it, I was like, “Why would they put that in there?” It just seems out of place, because I only associate it with almost parodic uses in films, just to say, “You know, at some point we just gotta put the eagle scream in here. So, let’s just drop it in randomly.” [They chuckle.] And that’s the way that it felt on there. But now that I hear it, I’m like—I can roll with it. I don’t—it still doesn’t make a lot of sense to me, sonically, but I’m just glad someone thought like, “Let’s go ahead and put in the eagle scream.” I’m sure, you know, they should’ve put in like the Wilhelm scream in there as well. [Morgan laughs.] Just to—you know, for another like Hollywood sonic meme. But I always thought that was kind of a trip, just to hear that in there.
morgan
Yo, bring back eagle screams alongside interludes and skits. If you ain’t got a eagle scream on your album, what are you doing out there? [Tiffany agrees and Oliver laughs hard enough to need to step away from the mic.] What are you doing with [inaudible].
tiffany
Very true.
oliver
So, what it needs to be is it needs to be an eagle leaving a voice message on an interlude. And it’s just the eagle screaming. That’s—that is— [Morgan laughs and Tiffany agrees.] That is all quadrants to hit on for Morgan’s preferences there. [Laughs.]
morgan
That’s it! That’s it. That’s it. Period. [Tiffany agrees.]
oliver
Tiffany, if you had to describe Food & Liquor in three words, what three words would you choose?
tiffany
Mm. Oh, wow! Is this—I should have known that—is this a question that you guys always ask?
crosstalk
Oliver: It is. Morgan: Every time. Tiffany: I should’ve prepared myself. Ah! Morgan: Every time.
oliver
It’s all good.
tiffany
I feel like this may be heavy. I’m gonna say revolutionary. Yeah. Just for what it did at the time that it came out for the culture. I’m gonna say my favorite word that I’ve been using, cinematic. [They agree.] And I’m gonna say there’s something also very [sighs]—I don’t know if satirical’s the right word, but he does—I love his commentary on hip-hop culture at that time, especially I think in “Daydreamin’” where he really like—he’s really challenging the culture and questioning it or making us, you know, question it at times. Especially in “Daydreamin’” with just the sort of—the parody of the music—of the hip-hop music video, right? Of what he’s saying. And I kind of see that trend in some of—a lot of his songs. [Morgan agrees.] Yeah! Satirical, I guess. Yeah.
music
“Outro” from the album Food & Liquor by Lupe Fiasco. (Man! Westside!) This has been, Lupe Fiasco's Food & Liquor comin' to a close, peace! Next album, Lupe Fiasco's (and much love to ya) The Cool If I forgot… [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
Well, before we jump out of here, we always wanna leave our audience with something else to listen to. So, Morgan, what would you recommend that folks put next on their playlist after they finish with Food & Liquor?
morgan
I think you gotta go to Saba, Bucket List Project, Chicago. You got Chicago Massive on deck. It’s indie hip-hop. A similar flow. He’s got the classic line, “My city is the one that made Lupe cry.” So, it’s—you know, “going around in circles”. And there’s even a Matthew Santos feature. So, it’s—we’re all in the family, here. And I think it was a great debut feature that grabbed a lot of acclaim. Saba has said that Lupe’s an influence and I would say start at the beginning. Don’t skip nothing. It’s—I do think Lupe paved the way for this generation of alternative rappers from Chicago. I’d start there. You?
oliver
My recommendation would be also out of the Midwest, which is The Cool Kids and their first breakout mixtape, Totally Flossed Out from 2007. [Morgan agrees.] Cool Kids is or was—is, they’re still making music together—Sir Michael Rocks and Chuck Inglish who, like Lupe, were very much repping for—as we were discussing earlier in the episode—alternative, Black youth culture. And they’re—in this case of Cool Kids, they were talking about customized BMX bikes. [They agree.] One of their first big hits was “Black Mags”, which is in reference to bike culture. And you know, they’re rapping about streetwear. And part of that generation, bringing that influence into the rap game, as they say. And I think that if—again, I think a lot of the things that Food & Liquor does, The Cool Kids do as well. But you wouldn’t confuse one with the other, because sonically they’re so distinct and as rappers they’re very distinct. But I still listen to a few of the tracks off of that mixtape today, and it still just bumps for me.
music
“Black Mags” from the album The Bake Sale by The Cool Kids. I'm a Murder Club, dope pedal rider Nigel said I'm good to get that ink on my bicep I gets, busy as a bee on my bike grips If I cat-walk this, I walk, I can fly this Bitch and I'm fly, and it's tied to the side That's the flag that I'm flying [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
Alright, last but not least. Tiffany, what would you recommend be next on the playlist?
tiffany
I—first of all—love The Cool Kids and The Bake Sale and like their first stuff. [Oliver agrees.] Ooh, can I just—can I continue with Cool Kids and go with The Bake Sale?
oliver
Yeah! Please. Go for it.
tiffany
Yeah, so I’m gonna piggyback on yours and go with The Cool Kids, The Bake Sale. [Morgan agrees.] ‘Cause that album is nuts. And they were chucking—like, yeah. That’s a good one. And thank you for reminding me about that.
music
“Mikey Rocks” from the album The Bake Sale by The Cool Kids. So, one-two, one-two, mic check I'm out for the high end, EQ my steps I don't use bad grammar, so please, excuse this I'm just trying to let n-ggas know who I is (Word) I'm—I'm—I'm Mikey, I—I—I'm going (Right...) I—I—I—I—I'm Mikey [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
tiffany
They’re so dope.
morgan
[Excited.] Come oooon! Fire. [Tiffany agrees.]
oliver
Alright. Well, if The Cool Kids—if Michael and Chuck are out there listening, come on Heat Rocks. We wanna talk to y’all. So. Just trying to make that happen.
morgan
Absolutely. Or someone talk about The Cool Kids’ albums. [Chuckles.] Either way.
oliver
Either way, that works too.
tiffany
Please!
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under the Stairs.
morgan
That’s gonna do it for this episode of Heat Rocks with our special guest, director Tiffany Johnson. Can you let us know what you’re working on now? And where can people find you out on the social streets?
tiffany
Yeah! I’m currently working on my first feature, which I’m really excited about. And yeah, gearing up to join—come back to a couple TV shows that I’ve been a part of. And yeah, you can find me on the Instagram and the Twitter @TiffanyJenelle. J-E-N-E-L-L-E. @TiffanyJenelleJ, actually, on both Instagram and Twitter.
oliver
You’ve been listening to Heat Rocks with me, Oliver Wang, and Morgan Rhodes.
morgan
Our theme music is “Crown Ones” by Thes One of People Under the Stairs. Shout out to Thes for the hookup.
oliver
Heat Rocks is produced by myself and Morgan, alongside Christian Dueñas, who also edits, engineers, and does the booking for our shows.
morgan
Our senior producer is Laura Swisher, and our executive producer is Jesse Thorn.
oliver
We are part of the Maximum Fun family, taping every week live in their studios in the Westlake neighborhood of Los Angeles. [Music fades out.]
sound effect
Cheerful ukulele chord.
speaker 2
Comedy and culture.
speaker 3
Artist owned—
speaker 4
—audience supported.
About the show
Hosted by Oliver Wang and Morgan Rhodes, every episode of Heat Rocks invites a special guest to talk about a heat rock – a hot album, a scorching record. These are in-depth conversations about the albums that shape our lives.
Our guests include musicians, writers, and scholars and though we don’t exclusively focus on any one genre, expect to hear about albums from the worlds of soul, hip-hop, funk, jazz, Latin, and more.
New episodes every Thursday on Apple Podcasts or whatever you get your podcasts.
Subscribe to our website updates for exclusive bonus content (including extra interview segments, mini-episodes, etc.)
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