Transcript
oliver wang
Hey, heat rockers. This is just a friendly reminder that we are in the middle of the annual Max Fun Drive, which is when we usually release bonus content for the year. We’ve certainly heard from all of you over the years about how much you enjoy that. And just to remind you, Morgan and I recorded a bonus episode earlier this year, before lockdown, at The Last Bookstore, which is a great bookstore and record store, here in downtown Los Angeles, where we picked out a few records from their stacks and talked about them right there in the store. There are tons and tons of similar bonus episodes from all of the Max Fun shows waiting for you as new and continuing members.
morgan
You can become a member easily at MaximumFun.org/join. Choose an amount that fits within your monthly budget, be it $5 a month, $10 a month, or $20 per month and up. Whatever level you choose, your support combined with that of other Max Fun members like you enable us to keep producing this show. That’s MaximumFun.org/join to sign up and see all of the cool gifts available. And thank you so much for your support. Alright, let’s get into the show.
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under the Stairs. [Music continues under the dialogue, then fades out.]
oliver wang
Hello! I’m Oliver Wang.
morgan rhodes
And I’m Morgan Rhodes. You’re listening to Heat Rocks. Every episode, we invite a guest to join us to talk about a heat rock—you know, an album that burns eternally. And today, we’ll be winding the clock back to last year to revisit “Worthy” by India.Arie.
music
“Rollercoaster” from the album Worthy by India.Arie. The next thing they turn around, they cloning you and me The way they do the human race is a ridiculous crime And Colin Kaepernick's knee got y'all losing y'all minds? Come on Let me off this rollercoaster (Hey) I don’t wanna ride no more (I don’t wanna ride no more) I don't wanna ride no more, I don’t wanna ride no more, no more [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
Barrett Strong and Norman Whitfield’s words sum up my feelings about the year 2020. They write, “And I heard it through the grapevine. Oh, I bet you wonder how I knew about your plans to make me blue. And while neither me nor anyone else could’ve predicted this level of calamity, somehow I knew this year would be something else.” I wonder how she knew and if she knew—if India.Arie knew that her album, “Worthy” would be so necessary, so relevant, so on point to the year 2020 and all that that year has brought with it. And why is this album all those things? I’m glad you asked. To begin, over several songs she asks us to consider things that in 2020 we still have to consider. “What If” asks us to consider the contributions of those whose early activism and social justice fights started movements that have led to movements. It asks us to consider mothering, to consider leadership and civic responsibility. And now. “Rollercoster” opens up with a news report of a Black person being killed in their own home. Sound familiar? Then asks us to consider Flint and genocide and Colin Kaepernick and the music industry and celebrity culture. “Woulda Shoulda Coulda” asks us to consider what it is to walk in truth, in our magic, despite a hot timeline, public opinion, and Hollywood standards. “Hour of Love” asks us to consider healing in quiet places and moments. And speaking of love, there are songs like “Crazy” and “Good Trouble”, “Steady Love”. Tracks that remind us that considering all others, faith, and hope, the greatest of these is still. Finally, this album asks us to consider ourselves. Seeing ourselves, freeing ourselves, and being ourselves. And for 20 years, India.Arie has spoken from her conscience to ours. But this is 2020. And in 2020, strength, courage, and wisdom are the minimum requirements. Maybe we didn’t know how much we needed these songs before. Maybe some of us didn’t know about this year’s plans to make us blue or make us brave. Maybe some of us just needed a reminder that we’re worthy, all things considered. This album is a heat rock. That’s it. That’s the tweet.
music
“What If” from the album Worthy by India.Arie. What if Sojourner never told the truth? Ida B. Wells never printed the news? Harriet never went underground? Where would we be now? We are the ones we've been waiting for We can change the world We can change the world [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
Worthy was the album pick of our guest today: singer, songwriter, poet, author, and educator Camille Yarbrough. You may know her name from her 1975 album, The Iron Pot Cooker, and its song “Take Yo’ Praise”, made globally famous when Fat Boy Slim sampled it for his 1999 hit, “Praise You”.
music
“Take Yo’ Praise” from the album The Iron Pot Cooker by Camille Yarbrough. We've come a long, long way together Through the hard times and the good I have to celebrate you, baby I have to praise you like I should [Song fades seamlessly in to “Praise You”.]
music
“Praise You” from the album You’ve Come A Long Way, Baby by Fatboy Slim. I have to praise you I have to praise you [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
The Iron Pot Cooker was just reissued for the first time on vinyl again, but Camille’s career extends far beyond a song or an LP. She was first a star of the stage, having toured with the play To Be Young, Gifted and Black, inspired by the life and career of the late Lorraine Hansberry. Yarbrough then created her own one-woman show in the early ’70s: Tales and Tunes of an African American Griot. And ended the decade with Cornrows, an illustrated children’s book about Black cultural heritage and beauty and the power of hair, something that India.Arie certainly knows about. Camille is both a student of a custodian for traditions of Black dance and spent years on the faculty of the City College of New York, teaching dance and other courses. It is our honor to have her with us. Camille Yarbrough, welcome to Heat Rocks.
camille yarbrough
Thank you so much. I’m so happy to be here and to be here to speak about sister India.Arie. It’s been a long time since I wrote the album and the music and did the performances for The Iron Pot Cooker. But one of the songs on that album was “But It Comes Out Mad”.
music
“But It Comes Out Mad” from the album The Iron Pot Cooker by Camille Yarbrough. I’ll figure out why We got to fuss and fight on Monday Why we got to not speak on Tuesday Why, why, why we got to throw hot water on Wednesday Why [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
camille
India.Arie has gone past that. [Laughs.] What I mean is, I was trying to say to people, “Let’s love.” And at the end of the song, I asked why must we always fuss and fight on Monday, throw hot water on Wednesday, cut up clothes on Thursday, go outside to hear it on Friday and kick ass on Saturday. And then, how we got the nerve to carry it to Jesus to save on Sunday morning. Well, that was because many of the people in my community were angry. You see, what we have today, we have—we have internet. And we see some of the horrors that you spoke of in the introduction. Police brutality, all of that. People didn’t see it. We saw it. We lived through it. When I was teaching at City College in the Black studies department, we were talking about the things that India talks about. She’s done it. You understand? She jumped over a lot of that, and she wrote about it in Worthy. Yeah, we’re worthy! That’s what the Black studies department was trying to tell us! You know, you’re worthy, y’all! [Chuckles.] But she’s there. And the fact that just the song, “Take Yo’ Praise”—which is one I wrote and Fatboy Slim made it into “Praise You”, that’s perfect. I wanted that feeling to be out. She put out we’re worthy, and mine was take your praise. So, it’s on that same track of inspiring people. That—I love to do that. I love—I grew up on the Southside, I saw a lot of things. I experienced things. And I saw too much unhappiness. So, listening to India.Arie, I see a person who has gotten over a lot of that. She’s come through it. Am I talking too much? Or [chuckle] do you wanna go someplace else?
morgan
No, no. Not at all!
camille
So, my joy is that all of the marching and protesting and being beaten up or shot that happened in the ’60s and ’70s, and we thought that maybe the message didn’t get through—it got through! So, that’s why when I was asked to choose an album, that was one that I chose. The other people had similar, but they’re not doing what she’s doing the way she’s doing it.
oliver
Camille, I’m wondering how long had you been following India.Arie’s career for? Since the very beginning, when she first started recording in the early 2000s?
camille
Yeah. I think she was up for an award with Alicia Keys. And Alicia got the award. And it was at that time that I said, “Oh, wow! She was good!” You know. India.Arie was—you know. So, that’s my beginning of noticing what she was doing. But between that time and now, she’s done an awful lot. I’m seeing—I didn’t know she’s done all these other things, these albums.
morgan
This is her seventh album. [Camille “wow”s.] So, yeah, she’s been doing this for 20 years. And I do think that artists need the time to grow. [Camille agrees.] That you need the time to experience some of the things that you write about. And certainly, with this album—
camille
Or you don’t write about them ‘til after you experience them. [Laughing.] And then you start writing.
morgan
Although, I think her lyrics have been powerful since day one. The timeliness of this album just cannot be lost on me. For an album that was recorded in 2018 and released last year, it’s just so potent to the things that are going on now. [Camille agrees.]
music
“Rollercoaster” from the album Worthy by India.Arie. I would not believe it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes If it didn't make me mad, it would make me cry Now how are we gonna get ourselves out of this mess? It's time for us to elevate our consciousness And raise our voice to be the men we want our girls to marry Make love, peace and respect the priority 'Cause we're watching as the world falls apart [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
What was your experience like—you know, first hearing this album? What were your initial thoughts?
camille
She got it. That’s all I need to say. It was like when I first heard Nina Simone, to tell you the truth. I had just come back into the country. I was traveling with Dunham at that time. Came back into the—I was on the bus in Chicago, 63rd Street. And I heard this music. And I said, “What—who is that?” And I asked the people ‘cause I’d been out of the country. They said, “That’s Nina Simone.” I said, “[Gasps.] What?! Who?” [Laughs.] So, when I heard India.Arie, it was a similar experience. “What?! Okay!” It’s there. It’s still there. The spirit is still there. The love is still there, after aaall the mess we go through. The love is still there. And the genius is still there.
oliver
One of the things that I thought was really striking, especially because this album comes—as Morgan said a moment ago, it’s her seventh studio album, not including other EPs and stuff along those lines. I mean, she’s been recording now for around, you know, 20 years. And she sat down with Billboard Magazine last year and was talking about the India.Arie that we got at the very beginning of her career as opposed to the one that is now, you know, almost two decades later, more mature. And one of the things that she said that I thought was really quite fascinating is, quote, “The India of I Am Not My Hair was searching for how to be empowered and free. She knew she had it inside of her, but a lot of things were blocking it. The India of today has achieved freedom and empowerment. Maybe ‘earned’ is the right word. I like who I am, even in the hard times. And it’s coming across in my music.” Unquote. And I think that sentiment does feel very true, especially because we had previously recorded another episode about an India.Arie album that came maybe about kind of midway through her career. And there is this trajectory. There is this growth and I think this comfort with herself that I do feel like is very noticeable on this album compared to, let’s say, the kind of the fresh-eyed India.Arie that we got back in those early 2000s. [Morgan agrees.]
camille
And that’s the importance of it, I think. You said the word “growth”, and a person who is a responsible person understands that life is growth and that there are young people coming behind us who need her. I wrote the book Cornrows ‘cause I felt at that time that our hair was being disrespected as we were. And so, I wrote that to give it some roots. Then she comes back, “I am not my hair.” That means she’s been there, and she’s gone past it. Do you understand? That’s—that’s— [They agree.] That’s the beauty of it. And the way she carries it is so important. She might even come out bald-headed, too! You understand? [Laughs.] But she says, “I am not my hair! I am still here!” You know, it’s the goodness of life as you grow older, as you pass on. You have to leave something. You have to give something. You have to keep growing. And that’s what I’m still doing, and I’m still here to say thank you, sister. When I was—when I was too scared to get into show business, I saw a woman named Josephine Baker come on the stage. And I said, “Oh! You don’t have to act the part of the mammy anymore.” You know? You don’t have to put your hair up in a certain way anymore and laugh and grin anymore. You can be glamorous, and that’s what sister’s doing here. She comes on with an elegance, but she’s down! [Laughs.] But she’s still elegant.
music
“Sacred Space” from the album Worthy by India.Arie. Where I go to be moved Where I go to be still Your love makes me new [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
What I admire so much about India.Arie is she’s been telling us that she was a queen since the beginning, since her first albums. She was saying I’m not the average girl from your video. [Camille agrees and laughs.] You know I’m saying? I mean, I’m built like a supermodel. Right? But I’ve learned to love myself unconditionally because I am a queen. Right? She’s been telling us that from the beginning. But I think the journey to loving yourself, especially as a Black woman, is a continual journey, because you have to push back against the lens, against the gaze, against culture, against society. And so, from 2001—when she said, you know, that—to now, she’s been saying it. And I just like Worthy ‘cause it’s such a cap on all these ideas—that to be present in your body, that not only am I not my hair, but I’m not my skin, and I’m not your expectations. But what I am is worthy.
camille
And it is so needed. I’m always thinking about the generation behind. And so many of our young sisters—brothers too, but in this instance, sisters—need to know that they are! That they don’t have to do certain things. They don’t have to do what people tell them to do if that’s not them. You have to feel you, first. And that’s why it’s so painful sometimes when I look, and I see what is happening—what is happening now. But something good is happening now, too. These people who are really now finding out that they are worthy on a different level—we already knew that we were worthy. No matter what was happening to us, the terrors that were put on us. And now, the world is being excited and lifted up by us, by people of African ancestry here. You know? It happened because of the tragedies and the violence against us. And we’re saying no, we are worthy, in other words. So, her album is right there. I am worthy. You are worthy. And we will not take this anymore. And that’s something!
music
“We Are” from the album Worthy by India.Arie. We are the best of struggles that we won't have to bear We are the heir to all the prayers that float upon the air We are, we are, we are [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
Morgan, I know you have certainly followed—I think—India.Arie’s career across the span. And this was her first—if I’m not mistaken, what?—her first full length album in—what?—seven years? So, she’d taken a bit of a hiatus. There’s an EP in there somewhere. But this is not someone who—you know, who is putting out an album every year. And Morgan, in particular, what do you hear—what do you hear in this album, especially musically, that maybe we hadn’t heard from her before? Or does this—is this very consistent with the kind of India.Arie catalogue that’s been established at this point?
camille
I have not heard all of her—I’m sorry, did I interrupt?
morgan
No, go ahead. Please.
camille
I have not heard all of her albums, but what I have heard, the music is—this music, I think, is rich. It’s solid. I think she was trying things from different cultures, maybe, before. But I think this is more complete. It’s tighter. And it’s right for now. As I said, I have not heard all of her albums. And I’ve heard some, which—as I said—she was experimenting. She was growing! Artists have to grow. If they don’t grow, forget about it! Because that is exciting to an audience, to see a performer doing a little different, maybe let me try it this way and this way. She’s still getting her center. Her center is dictating where she is going. But the music, I think she just has great musicians, and they know what they’re doing. They know how to accompany her, because it’s—she’s talking a lot! You know, she’s singing, but she’s really talking. [Oliver agrees.] I have nothing negative to say about this sister. [Laughs.] You notice. [They laugh.]
morgan
I think what I hear is I do hear the growth. It feels, as Camille said, like a conversation. Even in the heaviness of the themes, there’s a lightness about it. So, the guitar, you’re aware of it. But it’s not overly acoustic, if that makes sense.
camille
It’s talking, too.
morgan
Right. That the guitar is a tool of the emotion behind the album, and it’s more of an emotional tool as opposed to a sonic tool. And that’s the difference here.
music
“In Good Trouble” from the album Worthy by India.Arie. Oh, now you've got me talking on the phone Oh, now you've got me writing new songs What the hell's going on? I'm doing way too much, that's how I know I'm in good, good trouble with you [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
We will be back with more of our conversation with Camille Yarbrough about Worthy, the 2019 album by India.Arie, after a brief word from some of our sibling Max Fun podcasts. Keep it locked.
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under the Stairs.
oliver
Just to interrupt real quick, this is the Max Fun Drive. And it’s been incredible to see how our community has come together to enjoy and share our shows and other content right now. And we’re so glad that we can be here to inspire you, to make you laugh, to make you cry. All the things that you need from us most, right now. We love seeing your excitement for our new episodes. And of course, as always, we love the tweezies and the retweezies. If you wanna support our show, please just head over to MaximumFun.org/join to become a member. Again, that’s at MaximumFun.org/join.
morgan
You can see all the different membership levels and their corresponding gifts at MaximumFun.org/join. You get the bonus content starting at $5 per month. Some folks give $50 or $100 a month. But it’s most important that you give what’s comfortable for your budget. We have a feeling you’ll like being a member, and we want you to stick around. And, if you’re a fan of this show but can’t become a member right now, that’s totally fine. We know times are tough right now. And this show will always be free for everyone. You can still support us by just listening and telling a friend about Heat Rocks.
oliver
Alright. Now, back to the show.
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under the Stairs.
morgan
Yes, and we are back on Heat Rocks, talking the 2019 album from India.Arie, Worthy, with Camille Yarbrough.
oliver
Camille, just to go off on a brief tangent, you told an interviewer last year that when it comes to your song, “Take Yo’ Praise”—and this is the quote that you gave, quote, “Fatboy Slim put rhythm to it and it became an international hit. But the important last verse was left out.” Unquote. And I was very curious what verse were you referring to?
camille
Um, “I want the best for you baby. What you want, I want for you. And we can work together, baby, to make it all come true.” That’s just about it. For some reason, that is left out. And it has bothered me, because it’s very important that we work together. And for a people who have had such energy put behind separating them, for us to be able to say, “I want the best for you,” and really mean it. And you want the best for me, and we can work together. Don’t have to fuss and fight. Don’t have to—as I said in the first song, “But It Comes Out Mad”, we passed that. India.Arie’s past that. Well, it’s still there, because it’s part of life. But that was the verse. “We can make it all come true, ‘cause you’re so rare. You’re so fine. I’m so glad you’re mine.” I don’t know why they do that! [They laugh.] And I talk about it every chance I get. [Oliver affirms.]
morgan
I was gonna say, those lyrics sound a lot to me like the lyrics on “We Are”, which is one of my favorite songs on the album, where she’s like, “We are the best of the struggles that we won’t have to bear. We are the heir to all of the prayers that float on air.” [Camille agrees.] Two of my favorite lines in there. So, that—your lyrics feel very similar to what she’s saying there, the spirit.
camille
And you have to have gotten through something in order to say what she said.
morgan
For sure. She has come from her song, “I am ready for love, why are you hiding from me?” To now, “Steady Love” and “In Good Trouble”. [They agree.]
camille
That’s a victory.
morgan
And it’s nice—and that’s a victory! [They agree.] I’m still looking for that right now, Camille. So, I’m hoping. [They laugh.]
camille
[Laughing.] Me too!
morgan
Listen, I’m looking—right now. Thank you, India, ‘cause I’m still—I’m trying to get there, sis. So. [Camille agrees.] Keep me in prayer.
camille
I know about it. [Laughs.] I’ve tried to work it out. But it’s been hard. It’s been hard. [Morgan affirms.] So, I’m just talking about it right now.
music
“That Magic” from the album Worthy by India.Arie. He's got that magic (Ooh-ooh) He's got that magic (Ooh-ooh) He's got that magic The way he touches me is so spiritual He's so everything, he's a miracle, yeah [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
camille
But artists are very important. Just think of what we would be if we had not had certain artists in our lives. Life is difficult, so the great creator gave us artists. [Laughs.] And said, “They’ll help you with it. They’ll talk about it. They will exemplify what—you know, what you’re feeling. They’ll give you an example of it.” And so, it’s an honor to be gifted artists. There are artists who are just performers. And then there are artists who are gifted, really gifted people. From the inside. They carry a spiritual power. And I’m so, so happy about that. I’m so grateful.
music
“Sacred Space” from the album Worthy by India.Arie. You are where I go to feel To remember what is real, ooh You are my favorite place You are my sacred space [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
I was gonna say, I’m glad that you mentioned the spirituality of artists, because there is one thing that’s been consistent about India.Arie and her career, is the spirituality that’s present in her and on these albums. [Camille agrees.] One song that really speaks to this is “Hour of Love”, where she says if you wanna know—something like if you wanna know real feeling, take time for healing. She gets into meditation, sitting with yourself.
music
“Hour of Love” from the album Worthy by India.Arie. If you're looking for protection Learn to read directions Written in the depths of your soul Remember in the noon day Sit in peace, meditate Stillness takes you farther than you know [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
How does she come across to you, spiritually, here? What makes India.Arie so spiritual?
camille
Some people are gifted that. You’re chosen. Okay? I felt that in her work when I first saw her. She is saying things here that go beyond where most people stop. You know, in explaining, because they don’t understand their spirituality. I think she’s taken time to let her spirit talk to her and dictate, in some ways, the quality of her work. The kinds of things she does. We all have that spiritual power, but some have more. It’s genetic. It goes back. It’s your ancestry. I always talk about my ancestors, ‘cause I’m grateful to them, I’m thankful. And they speak to me. And there’s nothing spooky-spooky. It’s genetic! It’s in your DNA. That’s who we are! And their wisdom—and their wisdom is in us, or their lack of wisdom is in us. And I’m talking like this ‘cause I’m an old-timer. [Laughing.] You understand? [They laugh.] Because I’ve been around a while! My grandmother used to call me a old-head. And those who are born old-heads, those are the ones who carry that thing that India has. And if you’re blessed and you’re in the arts, they see it when you hit the stage. Or they hear it when they hear you. So, you know, you’ll hear me sort of gushing because I’m happy to be able to talk about somebody like this, who’s doing the work. [Oliver agrees.]
music
“We Are” from the album Worthy by India.Arie. We are, we are We walk upon the Earth, we knock on heaven's door We are the life that teems along the deepest ocean floor We are, we are [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
Morgan, do you have a fire track off of Worthy?
morgan
I do. My fire track is “Crazy”. [Oliver hums with interest.] The song, “Crazy”. [They laugh.] It is so tender. And we’ve talked a lot about the guitar and its role as an emotional vehicle on this album. But there’s something about the guitar in “Crazy” that is just so tender. And it just makes me feel. That and the fact that she’s got a—she references Stevie Wonder lyrics to “Ribbon in the Sky” in there. It’s just— [Camille “ooh”s.] Chef’s kiss.
music
“Crazy” from the album Worthy by India.Arie. I'm crazy over you Sometimes you make no sense at all But somehow I know just who you are And I'm only falling deeper in love [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
camille
[Morgan “ooh”s.] Yeah. She takes her time. You hear her breathing. [Morgan agrees.] Yeah.
morgan
So, that’s my fire track. What about you, Oliver?
oliver
You know, much to my surprise, it was the penultimate track on the album. So, really right towards the end, which is “Sacred Space”. And I was trying to figure out what is it about the song that makes such an impression, especially because—like I said—it comes so late into the LP. Usually, especially in the way in which we were talking a little bit earlier about sequencing—you know, artists usually put like the big hits on the front end, because they wanna be able to catch the listener and keep them there. And again, for whatever reason, “Sacred Space”, even though it comes right at the very end, is the one that just sticks with me. And I think partly it’s just the sentiment of it. And I was thinking back, in terms of one of our—part of our conversation last time we talked about Arie was just the idea of her earnestness in her lyric writing. You know, she’s not trying to dress it up more than it needs to be. And the lyric on the hook here, on “Sacred Space”: “You are my favorite place. You are my sacred space,” is—I just love the sentiment of it. It’s so—it’s so charming.
music
“Sacred Space” from the album Worthy by India.Arie. When I'm running out of time You are where I go to slow down You are my favorite place You are my sacred space Yes you are [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
So, Camille, now that you’ve had the benefit of some time to marinate on this, do you have a fire track off of here?
camille
[Beat.] No. [They laugh.]
oliver
It’s too hard to choose.
camille
I’m just—no, I’m just going to say I’m so pleased with the guts of it all. [They agree.] Each of them has its statement. And each of them come together in something that’s quite beautiful and quite necessary and quite victorious. I just need to hear it more. I’m longing to see our people—I’m longing to see her, in particular. We need to see her. We need to hear her stand up and say the things that she says in her songs. There’s just so much there. Worthy covers a lot.
oliver
Yeah. It’s really apt, I feel like, that we’re spending so much time just on talking about the title and what that word means. Because I was thinking also about my favorite moment on the album, and it’s the hook of “Worthy”. The song, “Worthy”. Because the word, to me, just in terms of on a phonetic level, I don’t think worthy is a particularly lyrical word. Like it’s a hard word to make sound as good, as far as other words go. But what I admire is Arie’s commitment to singing it, because it’s what she wants to say. [Camille agrees.] And you know, as we talked about throughout this episode and in the previous one—you know, I think one of the distinguishing things about her is that she’s always herself in her music. And I know that sounds incredibly cliché that an artist is being themself. But I think if any artist embodies that philosophy, it really is Arie. It’s just the impression that you get from her music again and again. And so, the way that she commits herself to just singing the word worthy, regardless if it’s—again, is gonna be the most like phonetically beautiful word to sing at all, that’s beside the point. And I was thinking back to—I mentioned earlier, the interview she gave last year to Billboard. And she talks about how quote, “The title of the album was Worthy for a couple of years before I had any songs.” So, in other words, she came up with the title first and then figured out like I’ll put songs to it later. But she already knew what she wanted to say. And this is her, again. “I love that word. It’s so potent. And it encompasses so much, in terms of being deserving of regard and respect.” Unquote. And I feel like a lot of our conversation today has been really pondering what does that word mean in this context? And to me, the way in which she just—again, her literal way of singing the word is a commitment to the concept of it itself.
music
“Worthy” from the album Worthy by India.Arie. Baby girl, worthy woman Every one of us is worthy I know your life, I felt your pain I know your joys and your shames [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
I love that. And I love that she says, “Baby girl, worthy woman,” so at each stage—you are worthy when you come in; you’re worthy when you get older. One of the best quotes I ever heard on Twitter—and Twitter’s good for a lot of things, but one of the best quotes I ever heard was—saw was, “Know your worth, and then add taxes.” [They laugh.] And I think that when you add taxes to your worth, you get “Worthy”. And there is—it isn’t—it’s beyond just knowing you worth. It is knowing that you are absolutely worthy. That’s what I love about that song. My favorite moment comes on “Steady Love”. I have to keep going back to that song. Although it’s not my fire track, it just yields so much. And my favorite moment comes at about the 2:43 moment, because she builds to that moment, and then what she does vocally—you know, I just had to gather myself. I was like, “Good lord. India.Arie’s trying to kill me.” [Camille laughs.] But at 2:43, she takes us to higher heights.
music
“Steady Love” from the album Worthy by India.Arie. Be with him (Every day) I wanna be lovers and friends and mother his children Make breakfast on Sunday and fight and then make up again 'Cause if life's gonna be crazy anyway I wanna do it with him Ooh, steady love (Hey) Ooh, oh, steady love [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
That just stopped my heart. I just love that song. Any favorite moments that you have on the album, Camille?
camille
Uh, no. Please forgive me for not being more specific and cutting it up the way, uh—
oliver
No worries at all, yeah. [Morgan concurs.]
camille
I’m sort of blown away, really, by what she has done and what she does. Even that song you’re talking about, when she saying they’re so—and the singing—the singing, too, but you know, I’m more a word person. If you—I’m story. I’m thinking about the story all the time. [They agree.] And the singing is—that’s a great part of it, but that’s—I’m thinking—right now, I’m thinking something that is different. I’m thinking I don’t know how y’all go about this, but uh, Black Lives Matter. I’m worthy. We’re worthy, is what they’re saying. But they say it in different words. Black Lives—yes, they do. We are worthy. And when they’re fighting to stay alive or to take down a statue that was put up by people who were destructive of their own culture and bodies, they’re also saying I’m worthy. Y’all, forgive me. But when I think of and listen to India.Arie, I see that same power. [They agree.] And so, she uses her words to say the same thing that’s in the hearts of a lot of people. And so, that is why I get stuck sometimes. But I know—I know what the sister brings. And it’s something that is so needed today. Yes, her singing, the softness of it, the facilities she has, all of that is there. And nobody can deny that. They can agree with it. They enjoy it. But it’s that package that—it gets me. That’s why I’m here. That’s why I wanted to talk about her. That’s why. I have other things to say about other artists, but this specifically, she’s very victorious, and she represents victory—of a transition of victory, of a loosening of a power that’s in her, that’s in all—most of us, but in different levels. She has a certain kind of power that nothing’s gonna get in the way, no matter what. And so, I’m here to give respect to that. And that she is on the stage now, cutting up, [laughs] and doing things. ‘Cause she’s very down. She’s very real. But wisdom is there. And that’s what I like. That’s what I like. So, it’s all of her that I appreciate. Each song is lessons, lessons, lessons, lessons. Good lessons. There’s joy in each song. There’s pain. Now, I like—I get into the pain ‘cause I think people have to feel some of that pain before they’ll get up and say, “I’m worthy.” [Laughs.] But then, you know, they have to go through some stuff to get there. So, I deal in that part of it. But I’m just grateful that she’s here! ‘Cause I’m sick and tired of looking at what I’m looking at on television! [Laughs.] And listening to what I don’t wanna listen to anymore. It’s so marvelous! It’s so rich. I think our young girls need to hear it and have a conversation with our—
morgan
Absolutely. Absolutely.
camille
Yeah, that’s what’s necessary. So, anyhow, I’m just very much.
oliver
This is either gonna be an easy question for you to answer or a difficult one, being someone of—a writer of such renown and experience as you. But if you had to describe this album in three words, what three words would you choose?
camille
Why would you ask me that? [Everyone laughs loudly.] Hmmm. I can say “I love it”, but that’s not description.
oliver
Well, really, it comes down to the three words that just come to mind, and it could simply that “I love it”. That certainly works. But.
camille
No, it’s important now. It’s on time. That’s—[laughs] that’s three little words.
oliver
Important, on time? [Camille confirms.] Yeah.
camille
It’s right for now. It’s right forever. But we need this. And I just—I’m sorry that people can’t see the performance, see a real person standing up there, saying the things that she says on the album in her songs. That’s very good. Very important. And I thank you for giving me this opportunity to share these thoughts, because it’s not that often that— You did ask me a question that nobody else has ever asked me, and that is—[laughs] you heard me say that they never do the last lyrics. And that’s so important. So, thank you for this.
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“Worthy (Interlude)” from the album Worthy by India.Arie. Every one of us is worthy Every one of us is worthy Every one of us is worthy [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
We always wanna leave our audience with other things that they can check out. So, in other words, if they really enjoyed listening to Worthy, giving them something else to listen to. So, we have—we always like to make some recommendations. And Camille, like I said, I’ll give you a moment to think about what you might. If I might start, and hopefully this will not come off seeming too on the nose, but if people really liked listening to India.Arie’s album, you should go and check out Camille Yarbrough’s Iron Pot Cooker, as I mentioned earlier. Newly reissued this year on LP, and I’m sure it’s out there on digital. And I think it’s an album that—for something that was recorded 45 years ago, it absolutely continues to hold up in terms of the blend of poetry, the musicality, the spirituality, the personality that I think was so evident on here.
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“Ain’t It A Lonely Feeling” from the album The Iron Pot Cooker by India.Arie. Now a nation of people has crossed over And they're looking for you to come too And don't be frightened, dope pushing brother You did what you thought you had to do [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
And certainly, I think there’s a lot of different themes that connect between, Camille, the album that you recorded all the way back in the mid-’70s and India’s album, in terms of the themes. There are so many resonances that I think echo back in between the two. So, again, I really recommend people check out Camille’s album. Morgan, do you have a recommendation?
morgan
I do! And I’d ask you to go back to 2000 and an album that I’m in love with by Erykah Badu, called Mama’s Gun. [They agree.] I think Mama’s Gun, start to finish, is an epiphany. It is about moving on past relationships and broken heartedness. It is political. You got—you know, “A.D. 2000”, you got “Orange Moon”, you got “Time’s A Wastin’”. You have all the benefit of Erykah’s wisdom at this point in her career. Similarly, it has lyrics that stick with you and thoughts to pass on for people that have yet to go through certain things. [Camille agrees.] And that’s what I think makes it very similar to this album. It’s organic. It’s intimate. And it’s reflective. And I think if you like Worthy, then you’ll like Mama’s Gun. Start with “Bag Lady” and keep going. [They affirm.]
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“Bag Lady” from the album Mama’s Gun by Erykah Badu. Pack light, mm-hm Pack light Pack light, ooh, ooh [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
Camille, is there something that comes to your mind, in terms of when you hear something like Worthy, there’s another album that you think, “Oh, this would actually go really well,” in terms of thinking—musically, thematically, what have you?
camille
India takes it up on another level, and she takes it into—she doesn’t do blues as blues is usually done. She doesn’t do gospel as gospel is usually done. And I think before, there were—the more powerful things were in those genres. And I just have favorites that I can’t get past. And one of them is Aretha. No matter what she does. I’ma leave it at that.
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“Climbing Higher Mountains” from the album Amazing Grace by Aretha Franklin. I'm climbing Higher mountains Higher mountains Trying to get home Trying to get home My road been a little rocky on my way home Yes, it has [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
Well, that’s gonna do it for this episode of Heat Rocks with our special guest, Camille Yarbrough. [Theme music fades in.] Can you tell us what you’re working on now?
camille
Giiiirl! [They laugh.] I’m working on an autobiography, but I’m doing some poetry. Sometimes, it just comes to you, and you have to do it. It continues until it’s finished, and it has to finish itself. There’s a spiritual part of our lives which we need to investigate, having been brought out of the motherland, out of the rituals. But we still have a center here, and we still go through things. When I was doing a play in Washington for a theatre, spirit came to me on the stage. I’m an actress. I’m trained. But I had no control over myself whatsoever. And then that said, “Camille, you have to check yourself.” Because over the years, certain events that happened to me which took me out of the person that is professional and all of that and took me into another world. And I had to understand the power of that world. So, I describe as I’m writing it in a dance studio, how I was taken and then the teacher who was a priest from Brazil came to me and we had conversation while I was in that state. And so, that said to me I understand—I began to understand my work more. I began to understand why I sing what I sing. And what I say, how I approach life and why I pour libation, because it’s part of the spiritual stuff that came—that’s still in me that came from the motherland. And I think we as a people have to really examine ourselves deeper to find how we survived over here. It’s because we had a certain kind of spiritual energy. And that’s what I’m writing about right now: that one experience and then learning after that and going on the stage—carrying that onto the stage and getting in trouble because of it, ‘cause people don’t wanna talk about it. I’m African. I’m Black. So, we wanna talk about everything else. But my thing is, I’m gonna talk about it ‘cause it’s not really me talking. It’s my ancestors talking. [Chuckles.] Can’t you see that? So, anyhow, that’s what I’m writing about right now.
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under the Stairs. [Music continues under the dialogue.]
oliver
We just wanna thank all of our members for supporting Heat Rocks. Morgan and I are so grateful for the support that you’ve given us, both emotionally and on social media. And of course, financially, to be able to help us make the show that we do that you also enjoy. Remember, our show is member supported, which means that we get to create the show in a way that is authentic and beholden to no one but us and our audience, meaning you. If you have not yet had a chance to join as a member, you can do so at MaximumFun.org/join. That is MaximumFun.org/join. You’ve been listening to Heat Rocks with me, Oliver Wang, and Morgan Rhodes.
morgan
Our theme music is “Crown Ones” by Thes One of People Under the Stairs. Shout out to Thes for the hookup.
oliver
Heat Rocks is produced by myself and Morgan, alongside Christian Dueñas, who also edits, engineers, and does the booking for our shows.
morgan
Our senior producer is Laura Swisher, and our executive producer is Jesse Thorn.
oliver
We are part of the Maximum Fun family, taping every week live in their studios in the Westlake neighborhood of Los Angeles. [Music fades out.]
sound effect
Cheerful ukulele chord.
speaker 2
Comedy and culture.
speaker 3
Artist owned—
speaker 4
—audience supported.
About the show
Hosted by Oliver Wang and Morgan Rhodes, every episode of Heat Rocks invites a special guest to talk about a heat rock – a hot album, a scorching record. These are in-depth conversations about the albums that shape our lives.
Our guests include musicians, writers, and scholars and though we don’t exclusively focus on any one genre, expect to hear about albums from the worlds of soul, hip-hop, funk, jazz, Latin, and more.
New episodes every Thursday on Apple Podcasts or whatever you get your podcasts.
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