Transcript
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under the Stairs. [Music continues under the dialogue, then fades out.]
oliver wang
Hello! I’m Oliver Wang.
morgan rhodes
And I’m Morgan Rhodes. You’re listening to Heat Rocks.
oliver
Every episode, we invite a guest to join us to talk about a heat rock. You know, an album that burns its way into our collective memories. And today, we will be getting ready, getting set, to revisit the 1980 sophomore album by Chaka Khan, Naughty.
music
“Get Ready, Get Set” from the album Naughty by Chaka Khan. I could try Imagining something better than You and I Making sweet love together Taking me much farther than before [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
“The air up there in the clouds is very pure and fine, bracing and delicious. And why shouldn’t it be? It is the same the angels breathe,” wrote Mark Twain about a west coast city. To me, at least some of those words describe the voice of Chaka Khan. Listening to what she’s able to do with air makes you feel like you’re climbing altitudes, soaring, levitating, able to leap tall buildings in a single note while she holds space for that ill lower register of hers and the high notes. Naughty dropped in the spring of 1980, during the last days. No, Mom. Not those last days. The last days of disco, sparked by a public rebuke in Chicago of the genre and its Blackness, its queerness, and its fun. Disco was demolished. But that didn’t keep the greatest ears in town—Arif Mardin—from including it in his production of this album, which blended disco with what Chaka was wont to do: be funky and soulful and have harmonies. Given the opportunity, I might have named this album Sultry, but I wasn’t given the opportunity. There is something about her voice that makes me feel like she’s got a secret in her throat. I love that. I love how she slow-winded “Papillion” and the tongue-in-cheeky of “So Naughty”. I love the drama of the opener, “Clouds”, the way she has sax with Michael Brecker on “Nothing’s Gonna Take You Away”. The layering and the textures and the mighty pens of Ashford & Simpson. Hell, I even love that pink satin john she rocked on the cover. We thought we knew her during the Rufus years, but she had much more to show—limitless vocal possibilities, what we say: straight options. In 1980 and forever more, she is heir Chaka, up there in the clouds, very pure and fine, bracing and delicious. And why shouldn’t she be? She sounds the same as angels breathe.
music
“Get Ready, Get Set” from the album Naughty by Chaka Khan. When he looks at me this way I know what he'll say Get ready, get set You ain't seen nothing yet All day, all night [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
Naughty was the album pick of our guest today, Adeline. You could say that she’s all about the bass, no treble, as she has been a student of the bass guitar since a teenager, getting her start practicing the basslines from Curtis Mayfield’s Superfly. Not a bad text to start from. From there, she blossomed to playing in CeeLo’s band and fronted the new disco group, Escort, before striking off on her own as a solo artist over the past four years. Her debut, eponymous LP came out in 2018 to rapturous reception. And by the time you all hear this episode, her latest EP—entitled Intérimes—will have just come out. Included on there are several songs that she taped videos for while on lockdown. The most recent, for the Sultry “After Midnight”.
music
“After Midnight” from the album Intérimes by Adeline. Crazy, longing as the time goes by (Soon as you get my reply, just hit me up) Just hit me up ‘cause it's time I need somebody to release me [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
Adeline, welcome to Heat Rocks.
adeline
Thank you so much! Thanks for having me. It’s such an honor.
morgan
Glad to have you here. And so, we have to know, how did you discover Chaka Khan? When and how?
adeline
Uuum. I discovered Chaka Khan—I mean, I knew the name Chaka Khan, you know, growing up. But discovered Chaka Khan—only happened kind of late in my years of developing as an artist. I was—I think it’s when I just moved to New York, so I was about 19 years old. And I moved to New York—and I grew up in France and I moved to New York to find my voice, really. Find my style, musically, and really go to the source of the music that I loved and learn. And that’s when I discovered Chaka Khan. I can’t remember exactly, but I think I was out in clubs a lot and I heard some of her voice. And hearing it in that context was hearing her for the first time. And I just, after that, just—it changed my life. [Chuckles.]
morgan
Talk a little bit about the moment you first heard her voice. What was that moment like?
adeline
The best way I could explain it is, it gave me permission. [They hum with interest.] It—yeah, that’s how I felt. She gave me—and I’m getting emotional. I’ve been really emotional for the past three weeks. I’m sure everybody is feeling the same way. But she gave me permission. She gave me permission to be unapologetically loud and high pitched and imperfect in the most perfect way.
oliver
Ha! I love that.
adeline
And I will never call Chaka Khan not perfect. But it—you know, I’m saying that with the utmost respect possible, but—and the dirtiness of it. You know? It is just—I have a really high-pitched voice, and I never—I always felt a little bit self-conscious that I would sound annoying when I would get to my high register. And I do not have Chaka’s voice. You know. [Chuckles.] At all. But it allowed me to not feel self-conscious anymore about just if you wanna scream, just go for it.
music
“What You Did” from the album Naughty by Chaka Khan. 'Cause when you open wide The inevitable steps inside Take it in stride 'Cause nobody can do Like you did What you did Like you did [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
Why Naughty as your album pick? ‘Cause I thought this was interesting, given that—and to be clear, Naughty is not an obscure album in her catalogue at all, but it’s not as formative as the stuff that she did with Rufus, and certainly amongst her solo LPs—her more prominent ones, like her debut from ’78. Or of course, her big 1984 album, I Feel for You. So, why is it that you landed on Naughty as the Chaka Khan album you wanted to talk about?
adeline
The first—well, the first thing about this album—I mean, and like most of Chaka’s music, which is why I’m such a huge fan as a singer, but also as a bass player. The basslines are insane. I mean, this album has three of the best all-time bass players: Willy Marcus Miller and [sighs], oh god, why am I not remembering now.
oliver
Are you thinking of Anthony Jackson?
adeline
Anthony Jackson! Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anthony Jackson, exactly. So, the basslines are—you know, I spent hours practicing to all of these songs on bass. And I love this album as a whole—the way the songs transition into each other just from top to end, the piece of work that it is as an album is—that is the album that I listen to when I get ready for shows. [Oliver reacts with surprise.] So, I have moments when I wanna hear Chaka and I pick this song, this song, this song. But this is when I wanna listen to an album, this is the album. And I have this weird tradition/habit, before—when I get ready for a show, I only listen to Prince or Chaka Khan within the first—the last hour before the show. A few select other artists are allowed, but it has to be these two. And it’s—I listen to Dirty Mind by Prince and Naughty by Chaka Khan. And it’s the way the album starts. When the album starts, it’s—the show is on.
music
“Clouds” from the album Naughty by Chaka Khan. (Clouds) Different shapes and sizes [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
I could be wrong here, and I think Morgan would know better than me, but Dirty Mind also came out in 1980, right?
morgan
1980. Yep. Sure did. [Adeline confirms.]
oliver
So, I think it’s fascinating that, Adeline, you chose—for your, basically, your hype music, right? Your walk-up music—it’s two albums from 1980. And we generally do not like to get into age specifics on this show, out of respect to everybody, ourselves included. [Morgan confirms.] My guess is I’m not even sure you were born in 1980, so I find it—
adeline
I was not.
oliver
I think it’s fascinating that you picked this particular pair of albums as what it is that—whether it inspires you or provokes something from you as an artist, as a performer in particular—what is it about that interplay and the sound of what was happening in 1980 that you think is useful to you, as a performer?
adeline
Well, you know, I did ask myself that question. And what I found out is I think what it is, spiritually, for me about these two albums is at what time in these two artists’ career the album came out. And I think it was—it feels, to me, that like it’s the time where they have found themselves. They have found their sound. And they’re just perfectly aligned with what is happening, sonically, in the music world and who they are. And they are hitting the spot perfectly. And they are so—they’re confident with who they are, and the music is done so perfectly.
music
“So Naughty” from the album Naughty by Chaka Khan. Oh with your body Oh you're so naughty I wanna get naughty with you If you want me to [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
Morgan, what was your relationship to Naughty like? And I gotta confess, I had never listened to this album until I prepped for today. Cleary I’m not that much of a Chaka Khanologist. I know a lot of her like hit singles, but I have very rarely sat with her albums. And so, I don’t know if I knew anything off of Naughty until now. And I’m curious how about you?
morgan
Well, confession is good for the soul, as I say. And I came to Naughty late. I loved “Papillion”, but I didn’t deep dive into the rest of the album until about 15 years ago. And when I jumped into the album, I was like, “Oh. My. God.” And I started with Naughty. I was like, “Oooh!” You know? It gave me a little shoulder shimmy, and it’s moved up the ranks, in terms of my favorite Chaka albums. It’s not my favorite. My favorite Chaka album of all time is I Feel for You, because “Stronger than Before”.
music
“Stronger than Before” from the album I Feel for You by Chaka Khan. Oh, I'll take you back, if you come back I'll take you anywhere you ever want to be You're the light inside of me [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
“My Love is Alive”, “Eye to Eye”, “Caught in the Act”.
music
“Caught in the Act” from the album I Feel for You by Chaka Khan. Caught in the act (caught in the act) And I can't stand to hear your lies Caught in the act Caught in the act When I wasn’t looking [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
They just wear me out. Like, I’m not even the same after I listen to them. So, my top five—top four would be I Feel for You, What Cha’ Gonna Do For Me, this one, and Chaka, now. [Adeline agrees.] And I think this has moved up a little bit in prep for the chat, but I just really needed to listen to it again. And I love “Clouds”. As I was saying in the opening, it’s just—I can’t with that. It’s just so dramatic. It’s such a dramatic start. So, it makes sense why you’d wanna play that before. Let’s start playing “Clouds” before the show, Oliver. [Oliver laughs.]
adeline
Yeah! You guys should. I recommended it! [Laughs.]
morgan
We need to play it before each show. But yeah, with Chaka’s catalogue, there are so many individual jams on every album that it’s even hard to pick favorites, because it can be an album that there’s just one smash. I mean, in the case of Chaka, “I’m Every Woman”, but there’s others. There’s other stuff. “I Was Made to Love Him”. You could go on and on. So.
oliver
Along those lines, Morgan, what kind of Chaka did you think we got on Naughty?
morgan
Sultry Chaka. [They hum in agreement.] Sultry Chaka. And I thought that we got—and I mean this not in—I mean loaded like a lot in her pocket. Because one of the things about Chaka is when I’ve seen her perform, it’s like she opens her mouth and ta-da! It’s like all these options come out. If you wanna go to the low register, she’s got that. If you want some sort of jazzy scat feel, she’s also got that. If you want a little growl, she’s got that. And if you’re patient enough to wait ‘til the end of the song, she’s gonna wear you out, because that’s when she starts to take off. And also, it’s just her harmonies. I know she’s got other personnel on here, but I think on Naughty, she gave us—she gave us everything, and she gave us that with her—I mean, it was just—it’s like—it’s like session musician summer camp, plus Chaka and all her gifts. And that’s just wrong in the best ways. Like, it’s just not fair! Damn it, Chaka. But it’s just so wonderful.
adeline
That’s how this feels to me. It feels like the music industry—like the best people in the music industry, in funk and R&B, were like, “Okay guys, you know, Chaka Khan is working on this album. Let’s all show up and like literally, we’re gonna call the three best session bass players that exist.” Like, the best drummers and like the best—and like Ashford & Simpson to write some songs. And you know, it’s—so, that’s why, for me, it just satisfies me as a singer and as a bass player.
oliver
Yeah. You know, it’s funny, because I was thinking—Morgan, you were saying a moment ago about how she has other personnel on here, and I’m like that other personnel includes Ashford & Simpson, Cissy Houston, young Whitney Houston singing backup, right? Luther Vandross, and that’s just the singing components. I mean, we talked a little bit about some of the musicians, but you’ve got guitarist Phil Upchurch, who at this point is just a stone-cold veteran. [Morgan “yooo”s enthusiastically.] You have former Average White Band drummer, Steve Ferrone. We talked about bassist Anthony Jackson, who played on I think almost all of Roberta Flack’s albums from the 1970s. And might have been playing his signature six-string contrabass on this album. I think, Adeline, you would know better than I would be.
adeline
You can hear like some of the low notes he’s hitting. That is a six-string bass, yeah.
oliver
And the point being, here, is that Naughty was not—I think—unique in having an assemblage, you know, of different artists. I mean, that’s just how—or you know, that’s just how albums were made, especially at this time. [Morgan agrees.] But the sheer level of combined and collective experience and talent on this LP is just off the charts. I mean, let’s just restate this again: she’s got Whitney Houston. I mean, provided like 16-year-old, pre-solo career Whitney Houston, but she’s got Whitney singing backup for her on this LP. I mean, that’s how much flex Chaka Khan has in this moment.
morgan
And that’s flex! And then, if you look at the instrumentalists, there’s so much—there’s so many horns on there. It’s like somebody decided this is a sax show. Sax, trumpet. [They laugh.] We’re gonna throw some guitar on here, but these are horns. And why this is important to me is because Chaka’s voice has so much horn in it. It’s got so much of that quality that it’s almost just sort of like everything that these instrumentalists brought to the table, I also have in my voice, but you know what, if you guys wanna come along, that’s cool. And I just love—I love that part of the album. There’s so many—there’s so much horns on here. There’s so much saxophone. There’s so much trumpet. And then, a few little great guitarists too, but to your point, yeah. Not only Whitney Houston, but also Cissy Houston.
oliver
Cissy. Yeah.
morgan
No pressure. It’s just Cissy Houston.
music
“Our Love’s in Danger” from the album Naughty by Chaka Khan. Our love (Our love, our love) Our love is in danger (danger) If you don't hurry home I might give it to a stranger I never wanted you to go [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
In terms of the sound of the album—and I wanna come back to you for this one, Adeline—is that you know, 1980 I think is a really interesting year for where especially Black dance music is, because you’re now coming in—this is the late disco era. It’s still very much influenced by the funk of the ’70s. You’re beginning to hear not necessarily on this album, but with other artists kind of the influence of some of the new wave coming from Europe. And you know, Adeline, you’re obviously no stranger to this set of styles, given all the work that you did with the group Escort. And I’m wondering, for you, what is it that you’re hearing on Naughty that really stands out? Both in terms of Arif Mardin’s production, as well as Chaka’s decisions as a singer, playing off of the sounds that are circulating on this LP.
adeline
[Chuckles.] I mean, it’s… every song, like—and again, you know, Morgan explained it so well with talking about Chaka’s range. Because that really is what’s so unique to her. She’s known for her high-pitched voice, but her lower register is also incredible. And she has so much control over her voice. So, to me, this—I mean, you find that in most of her music and almost all of her songs, like it’s—you’re never gonna be disappointed, vocally. It’s just always voice best. [Chuckles.] You know? For any singer. It’s such a lesson. But for this album, the layers of backgrounds that we just covered—you know, who was on backgrounds. But it has her signature yet, still.
oliver
And what did you think about the production?
adeline
Well, to echo what Morgan was saying—you know, adding to the fact that there’s so much going on, so much richness, you know, with the horns and these guitar lines are such elaborate lines coming, you know, for each song’s introductions and as—you know, passages between verses and choruses. And it’s so elaborate and rich in lines, but it doesn’t feel so busy. They’re still—I mean, I think it's probably due to the mix that’s so excellent, as well. But the—there’s still air. It still breathes. And really, what comes out of it is still the funkiness. And that’s really difficult to do. For my part, personally, I find that when I start adding more to my music, I lose a little bit of the funkiness and the griminess of it. And they’ve managed to really excel in doing that. It’s very elaborate. It’s so super sophisticated, but it still really, really feels really raw and funky.
music
“Too Much Love” from the album Naughty by Chaka Khan. I've got to sacrifice my feelings To make you find your own I think it's time to end it You might be better off alone [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
Yeah, you wanted to talk a little bit about Mardin, right?
morgan
I did. I did. And I came across a documentary about him, and it was filled with people that work with him. So, I just want to play a little bit of that, a clip of that, where the people that know him best are talking about what he does best.
clip
[As each person describes different styles Mardin excelled at, the music changes to match it.] Speaker 1: But there’s no doubt in my mind that Arif Mardin was one of the greatest [inaudible] of all time. Speaker 2: To look through this discography, it’s the history of modern music. [Music swells.] Speaker 3: He produces pure pop records. Speaker 4: I wasn’t thinking about no hip-hop at all. But he was. Speaker 3: Jazz records. R&B records. He produces rock and roll records. Speaker 2: Whatever type of music that you gave Arif, he knew it. He knew it!
morgan
I mean, and just a casual skip down his discography is just so mind blowing. And some things I didn’t know. I knew about his work with Chaka Khan, but I didn’t know his whole—when you go to the Wikipedia page just by itself, they’re like, “This is 143.” [Laughs.] This is 143 entries, but I just wanna name a few. Obviously, he did Chaka Khan, the album. He obviously did I Feel for You. I didn’t know he did an album with Donny Hathaway. I didn’t know he did The Fantastic Jazz Harp of Dorothy Ashby. I didn’t know he did Nora Jones Feel Like Home. Gosh, there’s so many things on here. I didn’t know he did the Amazing Grace album—the live album for Aretha Franklin. I didn’t know he did the Beaches soundtrack. Like, there are pages and pages and pages of this. And what became clear, at least in the documentary, is that he just—he could do all styles of music. So, when 1980 came around, he was ripe and ready for sort of this post-disco funk thing that he did on this album. Because he’s a jack of all trades. And I was just blown away by—I mean, that documentary if people wanna watch it is The Greatest Ears in Town, and it’s got Quincey Jones on there, Phil Colins, Chaka, Aretha, Willy Nelson, Lalah Hathaway, just all the people talking about all the different things he could do for each artist.
oliver
I always have this idea in my head which is clearly wrong—is that when we start to divide pop music into different eras is that we just sort of assume that people who were big or very capable in one era just somehow disappeared by the time you moved to the next one. And certainly, someone like Chaka Khan specifically, her career—you know, it spans multiple eras. And someone like I think Aretha’s the same thing, is that this might—sure, he might have been someone who helped to produce Aretha, but that doesn’t mean that once the ’70s were over like his career evaporated along with the decade. [Morgan agrees.] Like you know, there’s a lot of people who stayed relevant I think long beyond we often consider, because maybe the most prominent work they’ve done is associated with a particular time and place. But again, as you were saying, you just dig into the credits you realize, oh no, these folks were behind the scenes many, many, many years beyond whatever we think of as their prime. And in some cases, their prime never really ended, necessarily.
morgan
Like I was saying before, when 1980 came around, he was ready. And he was ready in 1984 for I Feel for You. Something—I think that was him and David Foster, I think. But either way. Yeah.
adeline
I think so. Yeah.
oliver
Yeah, this feels like an informal Prince episode, somehow. Even though we’ve already done like— [Morgan laughs.]
adeline
I mean, guys, any conversation with me is an informal Prince podcast. [Laughs.] [Morgan “yooo”s.] Just so you know.
music
“I Feel For You” from the album Prince by Prince. I feel for you I think I love you I feel for you I think I love you [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
We will be back with more of our conversation with Adeline about Naughty, the Chaka Khan album from 1980, after you hear a brief word from some of our Max Fun sibling podcasts. Keep it locked.
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under the Stairs.
promo
Music: Mellow synth piano plays in background. Brea Grant: Readers have a lot of problems. Mallory O’Meara: How do you juggle your holds at the library? Brea: How do you decide what to read next? Mallory: What do you do when you find out an author you love is a huge trash baby? Brea: I’m Brea Grant. Mallory: And I’m Mallory O’Meara. Brae: And we’re the hosts of Reading Glasses. Mallory: We’re here to solve all your reader problems, and along the way, help you figure out— Brea: —your reader wheelhouse— Mallory: —which are the things that will absolutely make you pick up a book. Our listener favorites tend to be magic and woman on a journey. Brea: And also, birds for some reason? Mallory: Your reader doghouse. Brea: Yeah, that’s the things that will make you avoid a book. Mallory: Ugh. Love triangles stress me out so much. Brea: Reading Glasses. Every Thursday on MaximumFun.org. [Music ends.]
promo
[Mission Control and Rocket Ship One communicate via radio, their dialogue punctuated with the static buzz of it being patched through.] Mission Control: Rocket Ship One, this is Mission Control. Come in. Rocket Ship One: This is Rocket Ship One. Go ahead. Mission Control: Rocket Ship, what’s your status on MaxFunDrive? Shouldn’t we have seen it by now? Rocket Ship One: Sorry about that, Mission Control. Turns out I miscalculated. [An electronic beep.] Current projected ETA for MaxFunDrive is… July 13. But it looks different. It’ll be for… four weeks, so it’s longer than expected, but all readings point to—lowkey? [The click of a keyboard.] Mission Control: Oh! That’ll be good. But can you verify that there are still special gifts for new and upgrading monthly members? Rocket Ship One: Verified. Sweet gifts for new and upgrading members, plus amazing new episodes and even special weekly livestreams for charity. Mission Control: Copy that! Rocket Ship, can you confirm ETA for MaxFunDrive? Rocket Ship One: 90% probability of MaxFunDrive from July 13 to August 7. Mission Control: Did you say 90%? Rocket Ship One: [Bashfully.] There were a couple of decimal places, and I might have carried a zero wrong, and— Mission Control: [Interrupting.] I’m just gonna pencil in July 13th to August 7th. Mission Control out. [A crackle of static.]
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under the Stairs.
morgan
And we are back on Heat Rocks, talking the 1980 Chaka Khan album, Naughty, with Adeline.
oliver
Adeline, as I mentioned earlier, you have a new EP out, and obviously—like most artists—you wanted to have been able to get a couple of singles out first and promote them. But then of course, covid happened and we were all sent home. And so, I’m guessing at some point, you must have decided that even though you couldn’t hire a professional, fully fledged music video team to come and shoot videos for this, you still wanted to get some videos out for your songs. So, you decided to do it yourself. [Adeline chuckles.] And from what I can tell watching the videos for both “After Midnight” and “Twilight”, it looks like you taped them at home in what I’m guessing might be Brooklyn, if I have my skylines right. Regardless, what was that experience like, putting together your own music videos? And you were telling us before we started taping that you taped those off of your iPhone, which is very impressive.
adeline
I did. I did. My husband filmed with my iPhone, and he—that is not his job. At all. You know, there’s something about not having a choice. You know? Having no option and not having the option to say, “Oh, I don’t think I’m good enough at this.” ‘Cause that’s what I used to say. And you know, some artists make videos. Some artists that are admired direct their own videos. And I always considered myself to not be one of those artists. I always thought, “Okay, I can do a lot of things, but you know, this video thing—the visual is not my thing. And then, you know, comes covid-19 and quarantine and the decision to, okay, what are we gonna do about promoting this music since we can’t even perform? And I just sort of thought, okay, you know what, I’m gonna try this. And once I gave myself permission to think that I could do it, the ideas started flowing in my mind, and I just kind of got in this creative zone that’s similar to when I create music, that I had never experienced before. I don’t know how good the videos are, but I had fun doing it at least.
oliver
No, and they look like you had fun doing them! [Adeline laughs.] I love the point that you’re making: how, you know, we oftentimes say that necessity is the mother of invention. But I’ve always found that creatively—whether it’s as a writer or as a DJ or what have you—the more limits you have, the more in which—I should say—I mean, there’s a point at which the limits become suffocating. But there’s this balance where when you have enough things of parameters you have to work within, you just learned how to make it work versus if you have complete infinite options, then you know, that analysis paralysis sets in. And it actually can be harder to be creative then, because you have no idea where to go. Versus when you know, okay, this is the box I have to work with, but I’m gonna make—I’m gonna do the best work I can within that box. And I think it sounds like that’s the kind of experience you went through with these videos.
adeline
Absolutely. And you know, I think some of the best art has been made that way. Again, I don’t think that those videos will stand to be some of my best art, but it—I just—tapping into that place of my creative brain, you know, I mean, the “After Midnight” video, I’m just playing dress up and I choreographed the whole thing, but I just—I got into this zone in my bedroom, where—I mean, it looked like a crazy person’s bedroom where I had all these clothes laid out and I just was in the zone! And it was almost like a visualization of what happens in my brain when I’m making music. So, but it was super interesting to discover a little bit of a visualization of how I create.
oliver
Yeah. And for the record, I think your husband did a very good job as director of photography on that. [They laugh.] So, you can let him know. [Morgan agrees.] He’s got a future as a DP if he wants.
adeline
DP—he gets DP credit. [Laughs.] Yeah.
oliver
Well, let’s bring this back to Chaka and Naughty. And we always ask our guests what the fire track is off of the album for them. And I’m gonna let you dwell on that for a moment, because I know Morgan wants to walk us a little bit through kind of the—her discography of Chaka Khan fire tracks, here.
morgan
Yeah. And particularly, I mean, if I had to play one—and it would be so hard to play one. There’s a song from an album—another album, called Chaka—called “So Not to Worry”. And it’s about an affair.
music
“So Not To Worry” from the album Chaka Khan by Chaka Khan. I see you five years later Two thousand miles away You left her for a mission And I left him for the same For the same [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
But if I had to go to my grave with one song, it would be “Night in Tunisia”. Because by the time she gets to “a long time ago, in the ’40s”, you’re just like, “Chaka, where are you gonna take me?” And you have no idea.
music
“And the Melody Still Lingers On (Night in Tunisia)” from the album What ‘Cha Gonna Do for Me by Chaka Khan. A long time ago in the ‘40s Dizzy and Bird gave us this song They called it a night in Tunisia And the melody still lingers on In the ‘40s [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
But what I love about Chaka the most is sultry Chaka. I love everything she sings, and I love every time she sings, but I love sensual, soft Chaka and just wanted to namecheck a few of those songs where that part of Chaka is at play. One of them is a song called “Roll Me Through the Rushes”.
music
“Roll Me Through the Rushes” from the album Chaka by Chaka Khan. Roll me through the rushes like Moses Roll me through the rushes just like Moses Roll me through the rushes [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
It breaks into something very sensual and sexy, and it reminds me of another track of hers, called “Better Days”—again, sultry, sexy Chaka.
music
“Better Days” from the album Ask Rufus by Rufus. It just might be that all my life I've been searching for Someone just like you Taking my time Everything's fine [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
And she’s got other tracks like that. Obviously, “Stop on By” is one of them, “What Cha’ Gonna Do For Me” is another one. But every time I hear this sort of Chaka, it’s very like silk robe, dark liquor, incense. I don’t drink, but if I did, dark liquor. [Oliver and Adeline laugh.] And the silk robe. But that’s sort of like femininity and full embrace of her—you know. It is her woman-ness. It is everything. And it comes across in her voice. And on this album, the track for me that does that for me is “Get Ready, Get Set”. It’s so sexy.
music
“Get Ready, Get Set” from the album Naughty by Chaka Khan. All day, all night Here's something you can't forget Get ready, get set You ain't seen nothing yet All day, all night Here's something you can't forget [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
Chaka is about the ohs and the oohs. If she’s singing an oh or an ooh… [Oliver laughs.] She’s wearing you out. In the best ways. And so, yeah. Sultry Chaka is one of my favorites. She’s multi-faceted. Adeline, as you have—you know—alluded to here, she’s multi-faceted, sonically. She’s got a lot of gifts and a lot of personas, vocally. But I love sultry Chaka.
oliver
So, Morgan, is “Get Ready, Get Set” your fire track off this LP?
morgan
It is not! [Laughs.] [Oliver reacts with surprise.] It is—
oliver
Threw us off the scent, there!
morgan
It is not! My fire track is “Nothing’s Gonna Take You Away”. [They hum in agreement.]
music
“Nothing’s Gonna Take You Away” from the album Naughty by Chaka Khan. Nothing's gonna take you away Nothing's gonna break your heart [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue.]
morgan
I mean, it is—to me, it’s a thing of beauty. It’s my favorite song, and it’s also my favorite moment. I love a good changeup, and I love when Chaka takes flight at the end of that song.
music
[Volume increases.] Nothing's gonna take you away Nothing's gonna break your heart Nothing's gonna take you away No, no, no [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
That’s it. I just love—I love that song. I love “Clouds” and I love “Naughty”, but my fire track is “Nothing’s Gonna Take You Away”. What about you?
adeline
Me? [Morgan confirms.] Oh, god, it’s so difficult. I would say, for this album my favorite would be “Move Me No Mountain”. [Morgan “ooh”s enthusiastically.]
music
“Move Me No Mountain” from the album Naughty by Chaka Khan. Just say you love me Long, strong and true And move me no mountain To prove that you do Move me no mountain To prove that you do [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
adeline
Yeah. Ugh, god, it’s—again, I think it’s also the bass in it. My favorite moment in the album is—‘cause I also love “Nothing’s Gonna Take You Away” and “So Naughty”, and my favorite moment in this album is the transition between the end of “Nothing’s Gonna Take You Away” and the sax solo that ends on this note—[sings a bar] and it trails over to the next song. And she sings the note that totally matches that sax, and the two songs transition and that inspired my entire—you know—debut album with the song’s transitioning into each other. That’s how much this album means to me. That is the—one of my most cherished moments in an album, ever.
music
“Nothing’s Gonna Take You Away” from the album Naughty by Chaka Khan. [One track transitions seamlessly into the next.]
music
“So Naughty” from the album Naughty by Chaka Khan. [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
It’s funny, because this episode is probably—by the time people hear it, we probably would have just had an episode about Donna Summer’s Bad Girls, which came out of 1979. And one of the things we talked about with that Donna Summer album is that—and that—you know, that was a straight-up, very much a disco album. Like, unqualifiedly a disco album. And so, a lot of the disco production on there uses these breaks where one song seamlessly blends into the other. But in this case, it’s a little bit more clever, because it’s not just using like a rhythm track in order to create that bridge. I think, you know, that the way it echoes out of the saxophone within the incoming note from the next song—I mean, that is a—that segue’s a thing of beauty.
adeline
It’s so beautiful. [Morgan agrees.]
oliver
Great, great call. [Morgan agrees and Adeline laughs.] So, as usual—and you know, I’m always the person who picks the most obvious cut as the fire track, and the biggest hit off of this LP—as we’ve talked a little bit about—was “Papillion”, which was Chaka’s cover of the Gregg Diamond and Bionic Boogie’s 1978 hit, “Hot Butterfly”. Which I’m pretty sure I have this right; Luther Vandross sang lead on the Bionic Boogie’s version.
morgan
And we’ve got it! We’ve got it here.
music
“Hot Butterfly” from the album Hot Butterfly by Gregg Diamond. A faded photograph I mailed to you With feelings I don’t want to face And the love song of surrender in blue [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
And Luther reappears on this Chaka version, except this time he’s singing backup. And I’m sure Chaka had a conversation with Luther about not only covering the song but asking him to sing on it. And again, we were talking a little bit earlier about the level of flex that Chaka Khan had at this point, but can you imagine her going to Luther and saying, “Luther, you know, that song from two years ago was really good, but I’m about to body it right now. And do you mind singing backup for me while I do that for you or to you?” [Adeline laughs.] And I mean, I think it’s a great song in and of itself. I almost picked “Move Me No Mountain”, because I think both songs share a very similar kind of midtempo groove. And obviously, there’s more energetic songs on here and there are more sultry ballads, to Morgan’s previous point. But there’s something about how that kind of middle point groove that both of those songs—both of those songs nailed that, for me, really, really gets to me. And I think—you know, as good as the original version of “Hot Butterfly” was, I thought Chaka Khan does a really just sublime job on this cover. And like I said, I just love the fact that she got Luther to step back—20 feet back from the lead mic and sing backup for her on this.
music
“Papillion (aka Hot Butterfly)” from the album Naughty by Chaka Khan. Chanson papillon, we were very young Like butterflies, like hot butterfly Chanson papillon, we had just begun [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
And I think he probably asked her to do background with him. He’s like, “Yo, I’m cool with David Bowie. He’s doing this Labyrinth thing. Can you sing with me on ‘Underground’?” And she was like, “Is Whitney gonna be there?” And he was like, “Yup.” So, they’re on this song called “Underground”, and even on this jam—and there’s like a choir. There’s Whitney. There’s Luther. You can still hear Chaka.
music
“Underground” from the movie Labyrinth. Heard about a place today Nothing never hurts again Daddy, daddy, get me out of here I'm, I'm underground Sister, sister, please take me down [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
What’s your favorite moment, Oliver? ‘Cause I don’t think you talked about your favorite moment.
oliver
Mine’s actually the very beginning of “Get Ready, Get Set”. And it has everything to do with the interplay between that really chewy bassline by Willie Weeks and that scrambling guitar which is either Steve Khan or Hiram Bullock—both guitarists play; I don’t know who does what. But it just—the way in which it just sets off this very particular funk groove. And I think it really is a lot of that guitar work, which it reminds me a little bit of kind of Rick James action, and it just kind of screams early ’80s funk to me.
music
“Get Ready, Get Set” from the album Naughty by Chaka Khan. Night’s gonna fall [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
adeline
This one almost feels like it could be a track off of Off the Wall or bat or something. You could almost—just hearing it like that almost sounds like a Michael Jackson track.
oliver
Right, and I was thinking before about our conversation about Arif Mardin is also—you think about Quincey Jones making that transition from—
adeline
Yeah! It sounds very like Quincey Jones.
oliver
You know, from the ’60s all the way up through, you know, the ’80s and beyond. And so, there’s a lot of these kinds of producers doing some of the work in the studio at the same time. So, no, that’s a great—it’s a great call.
morgan
You know, we talked a little bit, and we didn’t get into it, but real quick I touched a little bit on her harmonies, which I just think are so compelling. [Adeline hums in agreement.] But you know, just in your own words, like what are Chaka’s harmonies to you like? Just speak to us as a singer, ‘cause I’m not a singer. I don’t know how to interpret it; they’re just amazing to me. But what is she really doing, harmonically, that makes her so exceptional?
adeline
So, to me what makes it exceptional is how she harmonizes her adlibs, which is unique to Chaka Khan. Not everyone does that. You know, you have the layered harmony as part of the core of the chorus or the background, and then—which she harmonies both of these things, and then she will do her adlibs, her very unique—you know—signature Chaka adlibs. And very often, she’ll throw a third on top of that. So, she will harmonize her freestyles, which gives—you know, and she’s already singing super high when she’s doing her adlibs, and she will add a stack to that, which—and without doubling them. So, it sounds like three Chakas hitting you all at once. And you know, to me she’s a horn section. [Morgan and Oliver agree.] That she is a human saxophone, and when she harmonizes, it sounds like three saxophones just harmonizing with each other. [Chuckles.] [Morgan agrees.] And they’re all like—those parts that I just described that are part of adlibs, they’re all sung like a lead. And that’s why it really hits you so much, because they’re all sung without holding back and with as much soul and intention as possible in each one of those, as opposed to when you sing backgrounds, you tend to—you know, fade in the background and blend. But when she does that, each one of these parts are a lead vocal stacked together.
oliver
Well, speaking of the power of three, if you had to describe this album in three words, what three words would you choose?
adeline
[Chuckling.] Funky would be the first one for sure.
oliver
Good one. Good one.
adeline
Ummmm. Funky, motivating, and reaffirming. [They hum excitedly.]
oliver
Ooh, I like that!
morgan
Nicely done.
music
“So Naughty” from the album Naughty by Chaka Khan. Oh, you're so naughty Oh, with your body Oh, you're so naughty [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
We always wanna leave our audience members with something else to check out after they’re finished with the album of choice on this episode. And so, if people have finished listening to Chaka Khan’s Naughty and they wanna check out something else that somehow is tangentially or maybe more directly connected—you know, we always wanna give them something else to check out. Morgan, what would you recommend that our audience folks peep next?
morgan
You know, because I think this album is similar in places, I would say take it back a few years to 1977 and Natalie Cole. And I would get into her album Unpredictable. Most people will know that, because the big single from that album was “I’ve Got Love on My Mind”, which is so pretty.
music
“I’ve Got Love on My Mind” from the album Unpredictable by Natalie Cole. Oh, you have made me so very happy Oh, baby, baby [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
And I think that was such a smash. And I mean, a huge smash, a huge radio hit that folks didn’t pay enough attention to the rest of the album. But it is up-tempo. It is disco-y. And you’ve got similar elements with Chaka Khan—a pretty soprano with compelling harmonies in her pocket, and two singers that have jazz in their throat as well. So, my recommendation is go to that album. Start with “I Can’t Break Away from You” and keep going.
music
“I Can’t Break Away from You” from the album Unpredictable by Natalie Cole. You're like a mirror in the back of my mind I see reflections of you all the time I can't break away from you Deep in my mind you're always there You stay around me everywhere [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
I was thinking about what other funk albums from 1980 were out there, and one title I had forgotten about was this extraordinary collaboration between on the one hand Afrofunk pioneer, Fela Kuti, and jazz vibraphonist, Roy Ayers. The album’s called Music of Many Colors. And I don’t know if it was a partnership that a lot of people would’ve thought of as being intuitive on paper but having those two different sounds so distinctive—I mean, when you hear Ayers play, you know, on the vibes, there’s just something in the way he plays it that is just very him. And of course, I mean Fela Kuti invented an entire genre that we sit with and have a familiarity with. And so, to have those two men working together on this album—I mean, both working with, I think on one hand kind of a timeless sound connected with them, but there are also a lot of production details and musical details that are very much of that 1980 transitional moment, as we were talking about earlier. All of which exists on this Music of Many Colors LP. So, if folks having checked it out before—
morgan
It’s a great album.
oliver
And if you’re either a Fela fan or you’re a Roy Ayers fan, there’s no way you’re gonna leave this one disappointed.
music
“2000 Blacks Got to Be Free” from the album Music of Many Colors by Fela Kuti and Roy Ayers. Did you know? Why, why, why? Did you know? Why, why, why? Why, why, why? [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
oliver
Adeline, take us home. What do you recommend our audience folks check out next after Naughty?
adeline
I would say I would stay with another female, brilliant, unique vocalist who has incredibly funky basslines and funky music, but has a different approach to singing, and I would say Minnie Riperton. [Morgan “oh-wee”s excitedly.] And I would recommend Adventure in Paradise by Minnie Riperton. That album has some of the—and it would show—to me, it would just describe what—it would just be me explaining to someone what my approach of how I hear funk as a female vocalist and how female, incredible vocalists can do pretty funk. And that would be—that would be my recommendation. You heard Chaka. Now, see how Minnie Riperton does it.
music
“Inside My Love” from the album Adventure in Paradise by Minnie Riperton. While we're here The whole world is turning We should be one [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
morgan
That’ll do it for this episode of Heat Rocks with our special guest, Adeline, whose new EP, Intérimes, just came out. I suppose at some point you hope to get back out there to tour, but in the meantime, where can people find you online? [Theme music fades in.]
adeline
@Adeline on Instagram. My music on—you know—stream it if you feel like it. [Laughs.] On all streaming platforms, it’s just Adeline, A-D-E-L-I-N-E.
music
“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by People Under the Stairs. [Music continues under the dialogue.]
oliver
You’ve been listening to Heat Rocks with me, Oliver Wang, and Morgan Rhodes.
morgan
Our theme music is “Crown Ones” by Thes One of People Under the Stairs. Shout out to Thes for the hookup.
oliver
Heat Rocks is produced by myself and Morgan, alongside Christian Dueñas, who also edits, engineers, and does the booking for our shows.
morgan
Our senior producer is Laura Swisher, and our executive producer is Jesse Thorn.
oliver
We are part of the Maximum Fun family, taping every week live in their studios in the Westlake neighborhood of Los Angeles. One last thing, here’s a teaser for next week’s episode, which features a Tribe Called Quest, Ali Shaheed Muhammad, talking with us about Public Enemy’s genre-altering album, It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back. [Music fades out.]
ali shaheed muhammad
There are hundreds of records that are very meaningful to me and have helped shape not only my musical mind as a producer, but just me as a human being. You know? I did choose this one because at the time, this album had come out—I think hip-hop was changing, and even Public Enemy with this album had changed. You know? It was greatly different than Yo! Bum Rush the Show. I was into PE. But that—the second album just sonically—it’s hard to really put into words. It was a journey. It was like even the title, in and of itself—no one in hip-hop ever made an album with a title like that. If there were a hip-hop album that represented me outside of the works that I’ve worked on, then this would be it.
sound effect
Cheerful ukulele chord.
speaker 2
Comedy and culture.
speaker 3
Artist owned—
speaker 4
—audience supported.
About the show
Hosted by Oliver Wang and Morgan Rhodes, every episode of Heat Rocks invites a special guest to talk about a heat rock – a hot album, a scorching record. These are in-depth conversations about the albums that shape our lives.
Our guests include musicians, writers, and scholars and though we don’t exclusively focus on any one genre, expect to hear about albums from the worlds of soul, hip-hop, funk, jazz, Latin, and more.
New episodes every Thursday on Apple Podcasts or whatever you get your podcasts.
Subscribe to our website updates for exclusive bonus content (including extra interview segments, mini-episodes, etc.)
Meanwhile, you can email us at heatrockspod@gmail.com or follow us on social media:
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