TRANSCRIPT Heat Rocks Ep. 128: Emily Yoshida on Björk’s “Post” (1995)

music

“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by Thes One of People Under the Stairs. (Heat Rocks theme song.)

oliver

Hello! I’m Oliver Wong.

morgan

And I’m Morgan Rhodes! You’re listening to Heat Rocks. Every episode we invite a guest to join us to talk about a Heat Rock—y’know, fire, flammables—an album that bumps eternally. And today, we’re forming into an army of one to revisit an album that turns 25 years old. Damn. This year. Björk’s sophomore smash—“Post.”

music

“Possibly Maybe” off the album Post by Björk. Unless otherwise indicated, all songs in this episode are from Post. Rhythmic dial tone-esque sounds with keyboard; mellow, contemplative, and slow. Music fades into background as Morgan speaks. Your flirt finds me out… [Music fades out as Morgan speaks]

morgan

Marsha Norman—the Pulitzer-prize winning playwright—says, quote—“Dreams are illustrations from the book your soul is writing about you.” End quote. I like that. Björk’s sophomore album “Post” feels like an illustration from the book your dreams are writing about you. Dreams, though, written in technicolor; directed by Spike Jonze; scored by John Williams and Massive Attacks; informed by your subconscious and your secrets and your loins— [Oliver laughs.] —and a good day. Everything’s present on this offering—Björk’s signature growl; sweeping chords and the mixed media that is dramatic orchestration; beats, percussive elements, and the moves she makes sonically—from whisper to yell to dropping some old jewels on you while you’re caught up in some beautifully-arranged revelry. She said of this album that she wanted to be musically promiscuous. I love that, and side note—that’s about to be my new turn of phrase. [Oliver laughs.] But on “Post,” we got the jazz—shouts to Tribe—we got hip-hop; hyper ballads; and trip-hop. Of course there’s trip-hop! It’s 1995— [Oliver laughs.] —and that’s the wave. It’s the tone and tempo all over the album. Why? It’s tricky. Shouts out to Ryan DMC.

oliver

Oh, look at you!

morgan

This album, like its predecessor and its progenies, is complex—what we have come to expect and love from Iceland’s favorite, favorite star. “Post” is fire—and as much as I definitely enjoy solitude, I wouldn’t mind perhaps spending a little time with you and Oliver and our guest to talk about it. Will we convince you it’s a Heat Rock? Possibly. Maybe. [Oliver laughs.]

music

“Possibly Maybe” by Bjork. Soft, mellow, slow; electronic keyboard, steady drums. Trip-hop. Mon petit Vulcan You’re eruptions and disasters I keep calm admiring your lava I keep calm Possibly maybe probably love Possibly maybe…

oliver

“Post” was the album pick of our guest today, pop culture writer—nay, maven!—Emily Yoshida. I first got to know her writing about seven or eight years ago, when she was both a writer for the much-beloved Grantland website, as well as the cohost of Girls with Hoodies, the podcast she used to do with Molly Lambert, another gifted cultural critic. Emily would decamp from New York City for about half the twenty-teens, where she wrote for The Vulture, Elle, and Vanity Fair, amongst other outlets. And for about the last year and change she has come back to Los Angeles, where she belongs! [Morgan laughs.] And she has since been reunited with Molly—along with Tess Lynch—for the Night Call podcast where they talk all things pop culture, past and present. And oh yeah—she’s also a maker and writer of moving images, having co-written, co-directored, and co-starred in the 2011 indie film Salad Days and most recently directed the music video for the song “Lucky 88” by Speedy Ortez. She’s also wrapped up writing the remake—the reboot, whatever you want to call it—of James Carvell’s “Shogun”—shoutout to 1980s Richard Chamberlain miniseries! [Emily laughs.]

morgan

Wowwwww.

oliver

Emily Yoshida—welcome to Heat Rocks!

emily

Thank you so much for having me! I feel like I’m on This is Your Life. [Morgan laughs.] Wow! I forgot about Salad Days! [Laughs.] [Morgan laughs.]

oliver

Well, speaking of This Is Your Life—why “Post,” and what was—how did you encounter this album?

emily

This album was the first Björk album that I owned a physical copy of.

oliver

Okay.

emily

Um, I have a very strong memory of buying this one. Um, kind of in—and I came to it, y’know, several years after its release because I was sort of, y’know. I’m young. I’m a baby, I guess. [Laughs.] But, um—but, y’know, it was that kind of era where I was just kind of taking all of my spare change and taking it down to the used record store in downtown Iowa City and combing through the stacks of stuff and picking up things that I had just heard of—maybe not heard—and—but Björk I was familiar with. Björk was one of the first artists that I sought out on Napster? [Oliver laughs.] [Through laughter] When Napster was— [Laughs.] 

oliver

We are taking it back here!

morgan

Oh, man.

emily

So I had a smattering of like random tracks. A few off of “Homogenic.” Um, I think I had, um—I think I had “Isobel” off of this. I—but I had no context for any of these things? It was just like… I know I like Björk. I’m interested in Björk. And then I finally got my hands on like an actual full album that I could listen to all the way through. And so it was sort of my first love with her. Um, I didn’t get “Homogenic” ‘til later. Which, y’know, I think is wildly agreed-upon—and probably accurately agreed-upon?—to be her best album? But this one is like my sentimental favorite.

oliver

Right. Now, when you were looking through that Iowa City record store, were you specifically hunting for “Post” or did it just happen to cross your eye and you’re like, oh yeah! I been meaning to get some Björk! Here it is!

emily

There was the Björk section in the stacks, and, y’know, I only had a few spare dollars at a time so I was like, okay, well once a used copy lands in there I’m gonna snag it! And so… when—as soon as I saw one there I got it. It was probably like $7 or something like that. But, yeah. [Sighs.] I’m so nostalgic, even thinking about it. [Laughs.]

oliver

Well, you just mentioned that you think that—in terms of the kind of consensus around Björk’s sprawling catalog—that Homogenic tends to rank pretty high. To the top. And we certainly talked a little bit about this in our episode with serpentwithfeet about that album back in the summer of 2018. But you just also said, Emily, that for you, though, “Post” is the sentimental favorite. So what is it about “Post” that has struck a chord and kept with you these last 20+ years?

emily

I’ve been thinking about this a lot. I think—I was thinking—for whatever reason I was thinking about being a theater kid when I was listening to Björk a lot. I first acquainted myself with Björk. And also—y’know, a musical theater kid to a certain degree. And I think that this is her most Broadway album. That’s not the reason that I love it, but it is—I think—the reason that I found it easy to read? And easy to kind of like wrap my head around? Um, it’s very theatrical. I think her singing on this album… I—is one of the biggest—at least how it’s recorded is the biggest change from “Debut.” You can really just hear her, like, gnawing on every single syllable and every single consonant and it’s just so… it makes you, like… love her not just as like a vocal performer but as like a theatrical and dramatic performer as well? And, um, I think that’s one of the first things I really noticed about it. Um, yeah! It’s just got this very, y’know—yeah. It’s got all these different genres in it but it also has this like sweep and all these strings and stuff. The first time the strings come in and, um, I guess in “Hyperballad,” That’s—that’s when you’re like, oh, we’re—

music

 “Hyperballad” by Bjork. Music begins faintly in background; comes to foreground only after Emily and Morgan finish speaking.

emily

—we’re in a movie now. [Laughs.]

morgan

Right. Right.

emily

Yeah.

music

“Hyperballad” by Bjork. Alternating folktronica and acid house; up-tempo, electronic beat with strings. I go through all this Before you wake up So I can feel happier To be safe up here with you I go through all this Before you wake up So I can feel happier To be safe up here with you [Electronic beats continue briefly as Oliver begins to speak, then fade out.]

oliver

I’ve always had this memory of “Post” being my favorite Björk album, but I realize it’s not because I actually sat with the album. It’s because the person that I was dating in the late ‘90s loved the album and would play certain songs off of it in heavy rotation? So I got used to hearing things like “Amy of Me” and “It’s Oh So Quiet.” But then I realized—actually, prepping for today’s— [Laughs.] —for today’s taping, I’d only heard half the album? Because the other half I didn’t recognize and I realized she had mixed in stuff from “Homogenic” and stuff from “Debut.” So coming to this—I do have to say, though, in—having gone back and relistened to parts of our episode on “Homogenic,” y’know, the whole notion of that album was about it being homogenous and that we—one of the things we talked about with serpentwithfeet is how you can kinda just drop yourself in any point into that album and you kinda feels like you’re already there? And that’s given the consistency of the sound, which is—of course—what Björk was going for. But for me, I think I’ve always—even though I understand why “Homogenic” is more of the critical choice, I’ve always loved “Post” because of the diversity of sound on it. And that it switches styles from track to track and—and Morgan, I really thought you nailed this in your intro in terms of all the different influences that are rolling through here. Was this a Björk album that you were bumping back in the day?

morgan

Yes, and it’s my preferred to “Homogenic.” I prefer this album because I felt closer to Björk. This feels more intimate.

oliver

Hm!

morgan

Um, “Homogenic” feels conceptual. To me. And this one feels like she’s talking about a lot of stuff, and there’re parts of it, like, damn, Björk, is this your business? And am I in your business? [Emily laughs.] But that’s what I love about the album. That this is about intimacy and… and it’s contemplative. And it’s heavy. All while you’re like—should I be rocking out with her? Because she’s talking about throwing herself off a cliff. And, um—but I love this. But I know that people prefer “Homogenic.”

oliver

Right. This might be difficult to—or impossible to answer—but, y’know, in thinking about what you were just saying, Morgan, about the intimacy of this album. Because for me, when I listen to “Post,” what I hear from it is—this is Björk trying out a lot of different characters? And this kinda goes back to what you were saying, Emily, about—as a potential musical theater, uh, kid. That something about this album—the performance of it—is something that… really rings true in terms of going from song to song. And so—a song like “Possibly Maybe” on paper, y’know, it’s very coy; it’s very cute; maybe it’s about a relationship she’s in? But I have a hard time imagining that that’s actually Björk talking about her personal life. To me, this is Björk making a presentation or a performance of someone talking about their personal life. And maybe it’s just because I associate her with just being enigmatic, which is probably one of the more overused clichés people said about her? But I don’t—Emily, what was your thought with “Post”?

emily

I do find it to be a really intimate album and I think—and—“Homogenic” is more conceptual just in terms of like… [Sighs.] I don’t know. Like, I—I think of Björk as like one of these great scholars of love and relationships? Like, she just has so many little gems of perfect little phrases that… capture what it’s like to be in a specific moment of a relationship? Um, and particularly of like a love relationship? And I think that… like… “Possibly Maybe” is—weirdly—it feels like a dark horse, like, favorite on this album?

crosstalk

Emily: But I love it just— Oliver: Same thought. Yeah.

emily

Because it’s—it actually—like, it’s like this map of an entire relationship and like through the specifics. Like, one of the most insane Björk lines is “I suck my tongue in remembrance of you.” Which is like— [Morgan laughs shortly; Oliver chuckles.] And I like—I remember like not understanding that [though laughter] the first time I—I listened to this album and then like later being like, oh, yeah, I totally know what that means? Like, um… and it’s just so… it’s so observant. It’s so… it’s got its—it’s got its eyes on the details and on the really intimate details of an emotional relationship.

morgan

And I say “intimate” too because it’s—to me—there’re parts of it that are overtly sens—uh, sexual and sensual. Like, like “Enjoy.”

oliver

No doubt.

morgan

And I don’t think that’s performative. But it—but Tricky also produced that. So it all makes sense. Right? It’s got—it reminds me a little bit of “Maxinquaye.” Y’know? So it had—it has those elements. So that—that’s why I thought it—what I say about getting caught up in the revelry is that… by the time you realize that’s what she said on the track, you’re like, well damn! [Emily laughs.] Y’know? And she’s saying some stuff! Especially in “Enjoy.” It’s a little—lot—y’know, low-key explicit in there!

oliver

Yeah.

music

“Enjoy” by Bjork. Driving, heavy, deep, aggressive electric music and drum, bordering on discordant; raw, passionate singing. How can I ignore? This is sex without touching I’m going to explore I’m only into this to Enjoy Enjoy… [Music fades out as Emily begins speaking; fades out entirely by the end of her first sentence.]

emily

Yeah. I feel like there was something that she had to excise… from “Debut,” like, this sort of pixie image and everything. Like, coming in with something like “Army of Me” is such a strong [though laughter] statement, like after that album? But then you can get into those really intimate emotional moments with like a new context. It’s not just like… it’s not cute anymore. It’s, like, very real. Um, and—yeah. I love that.

oliver

Yeah. I mean, we’re already bouncing off a couple of the key tracks off of here, but just to stay on this—on “Army of Me” for a moment. Y’know, you talk about the history of powerful first songs to lead off an album?

morgan

Oh, man! [Emily laughs.]

oliver

I mean, to Emily’s point—I mean, this is like Statement with a capital ‘S.’

music

“Army of Me” by Bjork. Industrial rock. Intros with explosive sound replaced by heavy, mid-tempo, aggressive drums and base.

oliver

I mean, for 1995, this is a year that has no shortage of… of hard music? I’m thinking just in the realm of hip-hop?

morgan

Sure.

oliver

This is—is above and beyond most of what else was coming out in ’95. I mean, you got those John Bonham… Led Zeppelin drums in the background, just the industrial, like, [makes revving noise] of the guitar! And then Björk’s voice somehow perfectly—as a razor’s edge within it. And this is—again. If you want to shed the pixie image? You want to get away from sort of people’s memories of the Sugar Cubes? Like, this is—

morgan

Start this way.

emily

Mm-hm.

oliver

Yeah. Exactly.

morgan

And this was written for her brother, who apparently had been tripping. [Emily laughs.] You know what I’m saying? This is Björk’s way of being, like, y’know! Pull up! Pull your stuff together. You out here on your Portenoy. [Oliver chuckles.]  So if you gonna continue to do this—you gonna deal with this army of me! Which is so gully that—I mean, on top of it being aggressive sonically, is just… if I’m her brother, I’m like— [Laughs.]

oliver

You gonna have to deal with an army of me!

crosstalk

Morgan: Ew, right? [Emily laughs.] Oliver: That is hard!

morgan

Come on, Björk! She’s like, pixie these! Okay? [Emily laughs.] I’m in an army now. So… that’s one of my favorite tracks, too. Hell of an opener.

music

“Army of Me” Repetitive, rhythmic, aggressive synth in background. You’re on your own now We won’t save you Your rescue squad Is too exhausted…

emily

I feel like eventually we have to talk about the videos. Because I think Björk is such a video—obviously—such a video artist. But I—and my—my memory and, y’know, when I think about this song I am so instantly think of the… um, that was a Gondry—yeah! That was a Gondry video. Of her in the truck. Um—

morgan

Right. [Laughs.]

emily

But, like, here—again, like, coming back to the performance. Like, as we kinda swoop in on her and the body of this enormous sort of like… almost looks like it’s about to fall apart, like, semi-truck. She’s like—dead-eyed. Like, badass-looking in the front—in the front mirror or the front window and it almost like feels like a black metal performance or something. It’s so, like, dead serious. And it’s super exhilarating, I think.

morgan

Even when she’s in the dentist’s office—is it the doctor’s office? And the gorilla’s in there? [Emily laughs.] And there’s like a little stair down? I’m like, yeah. Björk’s gonna win, though. [Emily laughs.]

morgan

Björk is gonna win. And so funny—the YouTube link to that video—one of the first comments is: “Billy Eilish’s videos are so complex.” And someone writes—“Björk writes: Hold my swan.” [All laugh.] Like, yo. I’ve been complex. You know what I mean?

emily

Yup.

oliver

Can we come back to Björk’s voice? Because this is something—we certainly have spent a lot of time talking about distinctive voices on this show, right?

morgan

Yeah.

oliver

Everyone from Aretha to Minnie Riperton to Nat King Cole most recently. And I realize—I kind of feel like we actually kinda missed talking about Björk’s voice on that “Homogenic” episode? ‘Cause we actually ended up talking about serpentwithfeet’s vocal performance. But we kinda missed, like, actually getting into Björk! I mean, this is just one observation and it really came to me—and it’s not well thought out. So I’m just gonna prequalify that. Y’know, generally speaking—the U. S.; the kind of pop artist and the voices that we’re exposed to tend to be either, um, usually are American accent, for lack of a better word. Maybe a little bit of British-ism thrown in? I can’t think of—outside of Jamaican artists—and maybe a couple of Spanish-language artists who’ve crossed over. But for the most part, how many pop artists of Björk’s stature sing primarily—if not almost exclusively—in English, but with such a distinctive accent? And because we’re just so used to not hearing that! It never occurred to me until listening to this album that yeah—that’s actually one of the really unusual things is that her accent is very thick. Not like you can’t understand her, but it’s such a distinctive part of it. In addition to all of the gymnastics she’s doing in terms of breath control and just… how she uses volume and all these other things. And so that was just my thought on her voice. What comes to mind for each of you when you think about Björk’s voice, especially on this album?

emily

Yeah. I think, um, like, every time she rolls an ‘R’ it’s like, okay, you could try to make your voice more palatable but like that’s an instrument in and of itself. It adds this texture to it. Every time she does like a—all the consonants on this, uh, on this album are so crunchy to me. I love them. It’s like every—every, like, sound is like just so… it’s percussive! Like, she’s using it like a percussive instrument in addition to her vocals and I think she recognizes that it’s a tool. Um, that it doesn’t necessarily just need to be a conveyance of lyrics. Um, and yeah. She does it more distinctively than most other people I could think of.

morgan

I think her voice, um, she has choices? And her voice has a personality? And sometimes when she’s whispering or singing in that soprano I think she lulls you into a false sense of security and while you’re asleep then she growls and you’re like, oh, damn, we’re going here. There are just different characters—to your point—she’s got characters inside of her voice as well, and that shows up on every song. Nobody else can do that. And all of the people that have come after her that we think are similar, like Amber Coffman; Dirty Projectors; FKA Twigs; Grimes; or for that matter, Billie Eilish—they ain’t got that in their pocket.

emily

No. [Oliver laughs.]

morgan

Close, but no cigar.

emily

Yeah. Nobody’s like… screaming. She’s like, lets out at least two screams to my memory on this album that are just full-on, like, high-pitched screams. [Laughs.]

morgan

Right. Primal and otherwise. And it’s not shticky or gimmicky.

oliver

Oliver and Emily: No.

morgan

If somebody did that right now, you’d be like—what are you on? [Emily laughs.] Right? But in 1995 when Björk was doing it and since then, we just accept that as part of what she gives and it just feels authentic and real.

music

“It’s Oh So Quiet” by Bjork. Punchy, bombastic, Big-Band-esque jazz music—swinging acoustic bass, trumpets blaring in periodically to add emphasis. Growly and assured singing style. You blow a fuse Zing boom The devil cuts loose Zing boom So what’s the use [Screaming] Wow bam! [drops unexpectedly into sweeter, slower, quieter, but still stylized singing; soft woods join in.] Of falling in love…

morgan

When I was listening to this album in prep for the chat… I had been thinking, like… Björk’s got to do, like, a straight-ahead jazz album.

emily

Mm-hm.

morgan

And she did do a jazz album. Right? It’s called “Gling-gló”?

emily

Mm-hm.

music

“Litli Tonlistarmadurinn” from Gling-gló. Up-tempo, rhythmic jazz with a decidedly Latin jazz flair (possibly with some Caribbean jazz influence). Percussive, plinky jazz improv piano. Bjork sings in Icelandic with a breathy, jazzy voice. Tröllin þau börðu á bumburnar Blómálfar léku á flauturnar Fiðlurnar, mennskir menn á mandólín, ég… Mamma…

morgan

But it’s so interesting that I don’t think people would normally associate Björk with jazz, but to me—that’s—this is one of my favorite tracks on the album and her voice is perfect for jazz covers.

emily

Well I mean—I love “It’s Oh So Quiet.” The video, the song; it’s certainly the—out of her catalog—and I’m a little embarrassed, maybe that it’s one of my favorites. Only because I feel like… it’s—it feels like almost engineered to be somebody’s favorite because it’s different—so different than other stuff that she’s done. It’s such a showy—I mean, literally like a showtune. Um, but it’s great. I mean, just listening to her hush you? Is like, please do that more? [Morgan laughs.] Y’know? It’s like ASMR before I discovered ASMR? [Morgan laughs.] Y’know? Um, but to your point—I actually would have a hard time imagining—not that I can’t imagine her doing a jazz album. Right? Because everyone, at some point, especially with notable vocals does one, especially when they reach a certain age. Especially when they’re women. Whatever. But I just kind of feel like Björk is not the kind of type that would sit down to do that. It seems very un-Björk-like. A single song, and I think the lore behind this is this is the last song she recorded for “Post,” specifically because she wanted to like… eff with people’s heads!

morgan

Sure.

oliver

But I don’t see her sitting down and saying like, yeah, I’m just gonna do, like, the Johnny Mercer songbook because I can. That just seems very off-brand for her somehow.

morgan

Well I think she probably would name it something else so you’d be completely confused? [Emily and Oliver laugh.] Right? So you wouldn’t even know it was a jazz album? And I think—because it’s Björk—she would just bring something completely different to the table. And I thought all the shushing and all of that stuff was like a Björk thing. I didn’t realize Betty Hutton had done the same thing.

emily

Mm-hm.

music

“It’s Oh So Quiet” by Betty Hutton. Quiet, waltzing jazz backed by band. Hutton sings in soothing voice, interrupted periodically by hushes; then band swings into up-tempo, full-volume jazz and Hutton’s voice strengthens, gaining added growl in parts. It’s oh so still Shh! Shh! You’re all alone Shh! Shh! And so peaceful until [Trumpets blast; Hutton’s voice gains strength] You fall in love! Zing boom! The sky above Zing boom! Is cavin’ in! [Screaming] Wham bam!...

morgan

Yo. Betty’s isn’t that bad. But Björk just takes it to another level. And once you see the video, Björk’s got—went all soft-shoe in there. And there’s like a… a huge moment with everybody dancing. Björk’s tapping out. I’m like—yo. [Laughs.]

oliver

Nice crane shot at the end. [Emily and Morgan laugh.]

morgan

Fantastic.

emily

I have a confession, which is that this is actually lower on my list of Björk songs in general.

crosstalk

Oliver: Oooh. Morgan: Whaaat?! Oliver: Let’s talk about this now! Emily: I—I think it is—I think that it is— [Laughs.] Morgan: World star.

emily

[Through laughter] I know.

morgan

World star.

emily

I think it’s one of the—I think it’s somehow became one of her most recognizable songs. It’s certainly the only songs usually available at karaoke. If you want to do karaoke. But I—and I say this even having, like, a very affectionate history with it because I once won a lip-sync contest with this song? Um— [Laughs.] Where I got lifted off the stage at the end, kind of as like a mirroring of the video? Um, I love the video. But I— [sighs.] I don’t know! I think it feels… and I guess its use on the album is that it does feel like a kind of contained concept in and of itself. You get into it and you get out of it. But for me… it does make sense, like, knowing that it was the last song recorded for the album? ‘Cause it does feel as much as—as disjointed in a good way, I think, a lot of the album feels? That one does feel like a genuine, like, drop-in from another universe? And I don’t dislike the song, but I would say that like… I probably skip it more often than other songs on “Post!” I will say. [Laughs.] Yeah!

oliver

So is this from—is it overly familiar to you? Is it because you just feel like it’s too popular and therefore—you know what?

emily

Yeah. I don’t know! It’s just like I’m… it’s something that I would watch a performance of it and be thrilled.

oliver

Yeah.

emily

But I don’t know if I’m gonna just like… blast it in my car. You know? [Laughs.] Like—as I’ve been doing while I, y’know, prepare for this podcast. Just riding around listening to “Post.” But sometimes it’s just not the one! [Laughs.] For that context or at home. But… yeah. I don’t know!

morgan

Well, two things. We’re gonna need that footage? From, uh, the contest?

crosstalk

Morgan: If you have that? Emily: Yeah. There’s photos. [Both laugh.]

oliver

Now we’re talking YouTube right now.

morgan

Yeah. We’re gonna need that.

crosstalk

Morgan: We’re gonna need that. We’re gonna need that. Oliver: Put that on TikTok. Yeah. Okay.

emily

This was maybe pre-YouTube. It might’ve been pre-YouTube.

crosstalk

Emily: No, no, no. Yeah. [Laughs.] It’s on the cusp. [Laughs.] Oliver: You’re hoping that it is. It’s fine. It’s fine. I respect that.

morgan

And is it just the song or is it where the song came in this album? If it had come in a different place in the album…

crosstalk

Emily: Yeah, maybe! I don’t— Morgan: Would you feel differently about it?

emily

I don’t know! I don’t know if it’s just a sequencing thing. I think for me, maybe, the association is more—like, I feel like… and again, I say this affectionately—it is the swan dress of Björk songs. It’s the thing that everybody knows about? And so when people are like… oh, you’re a Björk fan? Oh. Like—

crosstalk

Emily: The swan dress? Oliver: You must like—right. Morgan: Yeah.

emily

And it’s so, so quiet. It’s like, yeah, yeah! Of course! Like, I love both of those things. [Laughs.] Very much. But… it goes deeper for me. Like, I don’t know. It’s like an entry point. And I think it’s a great entry point, too. But, yeah.

oliver

Now, see—this affirms why I’m low-key a little bit embarrassed that I like this song so much? ‘Cause I feel like it is the one song that everyone—everyone who says they like Björk likes that song. But it’s a little, maybe, just—it’s a little too basic. But as is well-established, I have the most basic taste? [Emily and Morgan laugh.] In general? So of course this is gonna be the song off here I really like? So.

emily

A basic Björk song is like, not saying that much. [Laughs.]

oliver

That’s true.

morgan

Right.

oliver

That’s true.

emily

Yeah.

music

“It’s Oh So Quiet” by Bjork. Swinging, swoopy, strong, boisterous vocals; big band jazz. The sky caves in The devil cuts loose You blow blow blow blow your fuse! [Screams] When you fall in love!

oliver

When talking about the voice, let’s get into some of the production side of it. And, um, y’know, in my—in the five minutes I spent— [though laughter] researching the background behind it, I thought it was really interesting to note that… Björk had wanted to re-team with the producer who had, uh, done most of the work on “Debut,” which is Nellee Hooper. And Hooper basically said—you should go and do this yourself. Basically turned her down. Not because he didn’t wanna work with her; because he felt like she should really go off on her own. And so the compromise is that she ended up co-producing the entire album, but then working with a whole range of co-producers, some of whom Morgan name-checked during the, uh, the intro. Including Tricky; Howie B.; Graham Massey of 808 State, which—I think goes a very long way to explaining that range of different sounds and styles on the album! So in terms of the production choices and just the kind of—not so much even disparity. That’s the wrong way to put it. But just the fact that you have—from song to song—these kind of jarring shifts. It seems to work really well in the way that I could imagine under somebody else’s, uh… performance it may not come together in the same way it does on “Post.”

emily

I think this album… I—for me, especially—kind of with “Homogenic” but this one I feel like has its more—tentacles in more things. Um… was sort of a gateway to a lot of my music taste later on. I got much more into electronic music and… and some trip-hop and stuff like that. Um, as a teen. Around then. Um, and it—it is a sort of… I mean, it’s very useful for that! ‘Cause if—especially as like a young listener, I mean, it’s a great way to get exposed to all this and like—and like, very good and interesting renditions of all of these genres, too. Um… yeah! I think… I think that… “Hyperballad” particularly was one track that I—I mean, it—y’know. It is a stone-cold classic but it is also like the first thing where I was like, oh, I think I like dance music a lot! [Oliver laughs.] ‘Cause I got into this album before “Debut.” So then I went back and got into “Debut” and I was like, I love this mode of her so much. And, um… it’s great.

morgan

Do you feel like, y’know, out of Björk’s albums—like, if you had to turn someone on to Björk, is this the album?

oliver

Oh!

morgan

Is this the album that you’d say, yo.

oliver

Mm.

morgan

Don’t go too deep with it, but just if you—this is Björk 101. Is this the album?

emily

I think so!

morgan

Yeah.

emily

Yeah. I think so. ‘Cause I think it’s got—it’s this nice little medium point between… uh, “Debut” and “Homogenic.” Um… I think that “Homogenic” is like, something you can’t drop on people right away. [Oliver laughs.] [Through laughter] You have to like gear them up for it? I would even put somebody on it to “Vespertine” before this. Um, and that’s a sex record. Um, but I think that this one kind of gives you an idea of like who this artist is? And what she’s gonna be exploring for the next like several decades? And, um… yeah! And it’s just adventurous and there’s something for everybody [though laughter] I feel like.

morgan

More approachable. ‘Cause I think if you try and hit someone with “Volta” or “Vespertine,” like they’ll be like, nah, son. No, no.

oliver

I mean, I also think “Post” is the most pop-literate of her albums?

crosstalk

Emily: Yeah. Yeah. Morgan: Ding. Oliver: Because really—

oliver

—starting with “Homogenic,” y’know, Morgan, you described it as a concept album. I feel like every album she’s made since then—and I might be misrepresenting maybe a couple in there—I feel like most the albums after that are all concept albums. And “Post” is really more… I’m gonna flex and I’m gonna flex in all these different ways. I’m gonna work with anyone I want to. And you’re gonna get served all these different styles of me.

morgan

And it’s more approachable, I think. Um, for the layman who’s new to Björk. That I think this is a great place to start because it’s not so complicated that you isolate. Someone’s gonna have a gem on here no matter what genre you like.

emily

Oh yeah. And there are like at least three of her best songs of all time on it, too. So it’s not even [though laughter] like—I mean, sounds like I’m saying like it’s a 101 type thing but it’s got some of her best stuff she’s ever done, so yeah. It’s great.

oliver

We will be back with more of our conversation with Emily Yoshida about Björk’s “Post” after a brief word from our MaxFun podcast siblings! Keep it locked.

music

“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by Thes One of People Under the Stairs. (Heat Rocks theme song.)

promo

[Quiet background hum of a plane engine.] [Intercom chimes.] Captain: This is your captain with an update from the flight deck. We'll be reaching MaxFunDrive on March 16th. That's right on time. As a reminder, MaxFunDrive runs for just two weeks, and it's the best time of year to support the podcasts you love. If you look towards the front, you'll see your favorite hosts with special bonus content and lovely thank-you gifts for new and upgrading monthly members. Now, sit back, relax, and catch up on your favorite MaxFun shows now, so you can listen to the new episodes releasing March 16th! And thanks again for choosing Maximum Fun!

promo

Music: Relaxing ukulele music. Manolo Moreno: Hey, you've reached Dr. Gameshow. Leave your message after the beep. [Music stops.] [Beep!] Sara: Hi. This is Sara, and I'd like to tell you about Dr. Gameshow. Dr. Gameshow is a band of geniuses, or nerds, or brilliant artists, or kids, or some combination of all of those who get together to make a show like no other that's family-friendly. It's an interactive call-in gameshow podcast. When I found Dr. Gameshow, I found joy. I told my friends and family that if they weren't listening, they were wasting joy. I sent them the episodes that made me laugh until I cried, played it for them in the car. They laugh, too! Laugh their butts off. But they still don't listen on their own, so they're wasting joy. And I keep looking for someone to understand me. Maybe it's you! Give Dr. Gameshow a listen, and find joy. [Beep!] [Music resumes.] Jo Firestone: Listen to Dr. Gameshow on Maximum Fun. New episodes every other Wednesday. [Music fades out.]

music

“Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by Thes One of People Under the Stairs. (Heat Rocks theme song.)

morgan

Yo, and we’re back on Heat Rocks and we’re talking Björk’s 1995 “Post.” With Emily Yoshida.

oliver

Emily, if I can take us on a brief tangent—even though Heat Rocks is a music podcast, uh, I think I speak for both Morgan and I when we say that we are not musical supremacists. We embrace all forms of pop culture. And looking over your writing background, you are about as omnivorous as a person I’ve ever encountered. [Emily laughs.] And so as someone who has his big tent for all forms of pop culture—past and present—right now… what are you most excited about in terms of—whether it’s music, television, movies, anything else. Like, what has got you hyped in 2020 in terms of pop culture?

emily

Oh my god. That’s such a hard question [though laughter] to answer. I always feel overwhelmed by all of pop culture and I feel like I go through waves where it’s like, oh, this is the year where I was paying more attention to music or this is the year I was paying more attention to film. I’ve been a film critic for the last couple years. Um, I ended my position at, uh, New York Magazine a little over a year ago. Um, or about a year ago. But… [sighs.] I think that… movies just continue to surprise me and delight me! They’re kinda my first love and I think… I think this year, this past year especially, like… as many kind of fights and contentious moments there were over certain releases last year? It really feels like film is opening up in a way that… I feel like I kind of have a little bit of a stake in as like a person who’s creative now too? But just getting to see other people really, like… flex and have their moment? Like Lulu Wong with The Farewell. Like, um… and even like Parasite, the—getting the Oscar and stuff. It’s just like… I do feel like it’s going to become a more… like, in a mainstream way a more global medium. Even more going forward. And that’s super exciting to me. ‘Cause, y’know. I feel like in the past it’s always been like you kinda divide your interests in film between… your mainstream blockbuster stuff and find in the redeeming qualities in it and like, y’know, kind of studying it more as like a social phenomenon? And then there’s the art film and the independent film that you really love that’s like the good stuff. But now I feel like there’s more possibility for that stuff to have a—more of a platform. More of an audience now. So that’s super exciting.

oliver

See, I would imagine you might’ve said television, only because—number one—you just finished working on a television show. But also—and I’m certainly by no means the first person to make this observation—is that now that we are neck-deep in the—the streaming network wars, the amount of serialized content that’s being developed is just… I mean, it’s almost impossible to wrap one’s head around. But there’s so much television to absorb out there. And… just kind of endlessly surprising delights to be found? And again, not that that doesn’t exist in movies or in music, certainly, or in video games or whatever else. But television just seems to be such a rich field that everyone seems to be wanting to get in on.

emily

Yeah. I mean, I had my first experience working on a TV show this past half-year? And it was great. And I feel like I learned so much about writing that I wouldn’t’ve ever gotten to learn otherwise? I think there is a thing about TV, though? And I—the reason it will always come second to film to me is that… and you learn this if you’re ever like pitching somebody on something! Which is that, like, you’re essentially having—you have to—like, TV is business, first and foremost. And like you have to make a business plan if you’re going to make a TV show and so… I think that automatically kinda… it means that a TV show has to be a certain kind of pursuit. A certain kind of thing. And… I love limitations? I love when people like take limitations and go nuts within them? And like the best TV shows are like that? But I think—I think for ultimate, like, y’know, no-limits, uh… uh… artistic pursuits, it—yeah. I don’t know if future filmmaking—short filmmaking—I—like, all kinds of filmmaking. I wanted to be like a music video director when I was in film school. Largely inspired by a lot of these Björk videos! Um—

oliver

No doubt!

emily

And it just felt like such a… wide-open… kind of format to work in. Yeah.

oliver

Since I opened this lane, Morgan—I’m curious, as someone who works extensively on music in television, do you have a preference of medium?

morgan

Y’know, I get asked this a lot. A lot a lot.

oliver

See, there—I’m being basic again! [Emily laughs.]

crosstalk

Morgan: Yep. No. It’s—it’s—it’s— Oliver: Asking the obvious question. Emily: It’s the hard question!

morgan

It’s not basic. It’s just… I started my career in film. And so I thought my whole career was gonna be in film. And then I realized all the immediate gratification of television.

oliver

Mmm!

morgan

Which is informed by social media. So you get to see what—how people feel about your content, y’know, as it’s airing. I still think film has a sexiness to it. And an elegance to it. That I think, um, not—the TV doesn’t—doesn’t always get close to. Because for every wonderfully-creative deep thing you’ve got some—and I’m not gonna namecheck ‘cause we’re airing this. But you know the TV shows where you’re like—who greenlit this? [Oliver and Emily laugh.] This is wrong. What is this? Y’know? And I still think film has that elegance, y’know, as a music supervisor it’s wonderful to have more time to work on a film. TV’s fast.

crosstalk

Emily and Oliver: Yeah. Yeah.

morgan

And so, um… I love the stroke that comes with television because you get to see… how people feel about the music because they can Shazam and they can go to Tuneify to find out—no one pulls up their phone in a film ‘cause then you just look like a bust. [Emily and Oliver laugh.] And everyone’s like, can you turn your volume down? Why do you have your phone out? So you don’t know how people feel about the music that you’ve chosen or chosen later. To that end, though, I’d like to know someone that works in TV—which song off of “Post” do you think is the most ready for primetime?

crosstalk

Emily: Oh! Oliver: Mm! Oo, I like this!

emily

Um… oh. This—I mean, I think that… I think “Possibly Maybe” is probably the thing that I could most… it’s funny. I remember imagining that, like, this song took place in a bubble bath and then you go see the video— [Morgan and Oliver laugh.] —and she’s in a freaking bubble bath! And it’s like—there’s something so evocative about it. I actually think there are parts of the video that are like too literal and on the nose? But, um… but that feeling… it feels like being like in a cocoon. Like, it is one of these videos where the visuals kinda… perfectly reflect how kind of tactile the song feels?

music

“Possibly Maybe” by Bjork. Slow, throbbing drum with quiet synth keyboard and frantic violins occasionally layered over it all; Bjork changes mood and volume frequently as she sings. My heart’s burnt How can you offer me love like that? I’m exhausted Leave me alone Possibly maybe (Possibly maybe) Possibly maybe Since we broke up…

oliver

I’m almost certain that my introduction to this song was not actually the Björk song, but it’s because a year after this album comes out DJ Shadow samples “Possibly Maybe” on “Introducing.” And so when I first heard “Possibly Maybe” I’m like—holy cow! He got that from Björk? I just assumed he dug it out of some random ambient 1970s album! And that was a real trip.

emily

Yeah.

music

“Mutual Slump” by DJ Shadow. Sampling of electronic dial tone-esque sound and electric keyboard from Bjork’s “Possibly Maybe.” Slow, pensive. Spoken word Stuart:  in background: All I wanted to do? Roller skate. Record scratching. Tempo picks up—rhythmic drum and hi-hat cymbals.

emily

Yeah, that’s probably the one that I would like… like, I could lay into a film most easily. Like, yeah.

oliver

I mean, I—when I was listening to “Army of Me,” I was just imagining that it sounds like something that would be at the beginning of a David Fincher film from the late ‘90s or late 2000s? But that’s not necessarily a compliment? ‘Cause I just feel like— [Morgan and Emily laugh.] —it almost—that almost becomes cliché at this point? But it does have like opening credits, y’know, vibes to it. In that sense.

emily

Or like in the trailer for Girl With the Dragon Tattoo or something.

crosstalk

Oliver: Exactly. Morgan: Oh, yeah. Emily: Like, something very Scandinavian and metal. Oliver: There you go! Morgan: Yeah. Yep! Yep, yep, yep. [Emily laughs.] Oliver: So now, Morgan—

oliver

—you gotta answer this question. What would you place?

morgan

Uh, it would’ve been “Army of Me.”

oliver

Okay.

morgan

It would’ve been “Army of Me.”

oliver

What context?

morgan

Uh… [sighs.]

oliver

Sexy. [All laugh.]

morgan

You know my mother is gonna be listening—

oliver

I’m sorry! I’m sorry.

morgan

—to this. But you know I probably would try and do something. I would try and—probably try and make that ironic and funny.

oliver

Okay. [Emily laughs.]

oliver

So Emily, you said earlier that this album has three of either your favorite or the best Björk songs. So I’m assuming one of them is… “Army of Me.”

morgan

Yeah.

oliver

What were the other two?

emily

“Hyperballad.” Um… and… I go back and forth. I think of—I think of “Possibly Maybe” and “I Miss You” kind of as a pair? I feel like they belong together? They’re very different sounding, but I think that they’re this weird sort of time-loop about like kind of mapping a relationship? The tense of “I Miss You” is, y’know, the whole—the whole concept of the film is like this relationship hasn’t happened yet but she’s—she’s remembering it. Uh, which is I feel like a thing that Carly Rae Jepsen stole for, um— [Oliver laughs.] —“Call Me Maybe.” [Through laughter] But—

morgan

She probably did.

crosstalk

Emily: Um, but yeah! I just— Morgan: She totally did. Oliver: She wasn’t—

oliver

—listening to Björk back then. She was Gia.

emily

She might—she’s—

oliver

I could be wrong.

emily

—older than you think she is. [Laughs.]

oliver

Okay. I see. I was—I was misled. Misled.

emily

Um, it’s a great song. But like I remember people—the line is like, “Before you came into my life I missed you so bad.”

oliver

Mm. Mm, mm, mm.

emily

I was like—Björk. Björk was already on that. But. [Laughs.]

oliver

She did it first!

morgan

Yeah.

oliver

But um, but yeah! This sort of, um… I just think it’s such a lovely kind of couplet that they form together of—of just… kind of being… before and after a relationship and in it and kind of how it all—in the music, in the songs, they kind of run together and it’s just—it feels very… it—and it runs the gamut of every single emotion that you feel over the course of a relationship! From, like, screaming with excitement and anticipation to like… screaming with agony because a relationship is over. It’s just, um… I love both of those. It’s sort of hard for me to separate them. Yeah.

oliver

If you had to pick, though, out of that bunch—to pick one fire track—which one would you settle on?

emily

I don’t think that there’s any choice but “Hyperballad.” I think “Hyperballad” is just, um… a—it is one of her perfect songs. It… makes me… tear up almost every single time I hear it.

crosstalk

Oliver and Morgan: Mm.

emily

Um, I think the video is magnificent? Sometimes the Gondry videos can go a little too, like, [makes noise] mraw! For me, but that one is… I think that one is abstract in just the right way. Um… I think the sentiment of it is… is something that I’ve held on for my whole life? Um… it’s—and it’s a sentiment that you don’t really hear expressed that much in pop music.

morgan

Right.

emily

Where it’s all full devotion or full… can I say “fuck you”? [Laughs.]

crosstalk

Oliver: Yes! You can! Morgan: Yeah. Emily: [Through laughter] Like, on this—

emily

Like, um… and it’s somewhere… it’s—it’s—it’s this holding onto a sense of yourself as this really emotional, important pursuit. And… um… I think that really… left an impression with me from a young age. From the first time I heard this song. And then the fact that it becomes a dance song at the end of it and this like very cathartic… swell of a dance song. It feels sort of like… I feel like… where, like, Robin or somebody like took notes from for later on. Just this like super just bleeding heart on the dance floor, like, hanging onto yourself type feeling. I just think it’s a—it’s a perfect, gorgeous song.

music

“Hyperballad” by Bjork. Up-tempo dance beats in background—synth, drum, space-y synthetic sounds. Controlled vocals. Will my eyes Be closed or open? I go through all this Before you wake up So I can feel happier To be safe up here with you I go through all this…

morgan

Your fire track?

oliver

[Sighs.] I mean, for me—I don’t think it can be anything besides “Army of Me” for reasons we’ve already covered extensively? And a lot of it does have to do with the sequencing and placement. Just as we were saying in the first half, you put that as your first song. You are clearly trying to send a message to people in terms of what it is that you’re representing. And as I was saying in that first half—it really actually made me wanna go back and look at—what other—were the—what were the other big songs of ’95? And was there anything approaching this level of aggression and energy and like… yeah, there’s some like super-sinister Mob Deep stuff from that year? But this song is both sinister but also bombastic. I mean, it just—the—the—the… the muscular strength of that sound is—is really really striking. And I didn’t realize that ten years later, it gave rise to an entire album of “Army of Me” remixes and covers?

morgan

Mmm.

oliver

And it’s rare that you see a single song generate that level of devotion. And I can’t say that all of them work? But it was very fun going through the different covers. [Laughs.] One of the ones I plucked out, uh, came from a British comedian. Uh, named Martin White. Who did the accordion mix of— [Emily and Morgan laugh.] —“Army of Me.”

music

“Army of Me” by Martin White. Dramatic accordion rendition of “Army of Me;” the choice of instrument renders it more of a fairground organ/carousel interpretation of what was previously a very aggressive and forward song.

morgan

See, that’s what you place when you can’t clear the whole thing and you’re just bailing. [Emily laughs.] Let’s just get the publishing! [Oliver laughs.] Put that accordion mix and pacemakers will know! Pacemakers will know.

emily

This can go under a car—a car chase!

crosstalk

Morgan: That’s it! That’s it. Oliver: There ya go. Right.

emily

A very, like, a French car chase.

oliver

How about you, Morgan?

morgan

“Isobel.”

oliver

See, you always come in—super left field with your fire tracks. I love that.

crosstalk

Morgan: Yoooo. Emily: I love “Isobel”!

emily

It’s so good! Yeah.

morgan

Mannnn. The opening is sick.

music

“Isobel” by Bjork. Dramatic, swelling, tense drums and orchestration—almost approaching a horror film soundtrack in its initial tension, giving way to compellingly rhythmic drums (possibly bongo?). Björk’s singing begins, mid-volume, elongated vowel sounds. In a forest pitch dark Glowed the tiniest spark…

morgan

That is fire. And I could just—can’t believe that gem didn’t come up a little bit earlier in this conversation. But that one is—that one’s fire. The beats. The build. Her vocals. And that mighta coulda been the opener! If “Post” had opened like that, it would’ve been like, oh, man. We about to go in! So. That’s—that’s my favorite and that’s on Nellee Hooper and Björk.

oliver

Is that also your favorite moment on the album?

morgan

It is!

oliver

Okay.

morgan

It is. Um, I mean—I like—there’s two of my favorites—favorite openers. “You’ve Been Flirting Again” is one of them? And this. But this one—because you just don’t know what you’re getting. There’s a… it—there’s like a rush and then there’s like a sinister element and then there’s like that drama. And it’s just so many things. And then the beats are fire! Like… yeah.

emily

Yeah. I love that transition from “You’ve Been Flirting Again” into “Isobel.”

morgan

Oooh!

emily

That’s why I call it like a Broadway album. ‘Cause it feels—I mean, “You’ve Been Flirting Again” is such an enigmatic song. I wouldn’t even think, like, she said that it’s about flirting but that’s not what it sounds like it’s about. [Oliver laughs.] It sounds like it’s—y’know, the end of something or like a breakup song or something. And then to go from that, like, this very kind of… slow and sensuous and sad song into this like… march! Um—

morgan

Right. Exactly.

emily

Feels so—yeah! Just like… overused word, but it’s epic! [Laughs.] It’s great!

morgan

It is epic. And then to slow it down into “Possibly Maybe,” you like… you like, I’ve just been in therapy! [Emily laughs.] I’ve just processed all my situation. But that’s what it feels like. But “Isobel” to me is the fire track. Yeah.

oliver

My favorite moment—this goes back to “It’s Oh So Quiet.” And it’s really just when the chorus hits? And I think for most people who are not familiar with the Betty Hutton version that we were talking about in the first half—you don’t—I mean, when the song begins you don’t really know what you’re getting in for? I mean, it feels—it does feel like a showtune ‘cause it has all those kinda classic markers. But when the chorus hits… and just the way that Björk makes that turn and the horns the way they drop in and especially if you’ve seen the video, that’s when everything goes crazy. It’s just… even now, and I mean, I’ve been listening to this song for 25 years. I still get hyped! When that moment comes.

music

“It’s Oh So Quiet” By Bjork. Hushing voice overlaying slow, jazzy orchestration. Then trumpets blare, tempo picks up—vocal volume increases. Band swings into full power; notable acoustic base, drums, trumpets—scream from Björk, followed by drop in volume. Shh Shh And so peaceful until [Trumpets blare, tempo picks up, vocal volume increases] You fall in love! Zing boom! The sky up above Zing boom! Is caving in [Screaming] Wow Bam! You’ve never been so nuts about a guy…

oliver

Mm! [Emily laughs.] Emily, how about you? Do you have a favorite moment on this album?

emily

I have a bunch of favorite moments on this album. I… I… just because it’s not one that we’ve talked about a lot and I think that this is a little bit of like a… like, more of a shadow pick on here? But um… I think it’s like, what—I guess what you would call the bridge on… “I Miss You.” Um, where a lot of the instruments kind of break down and there’s this sort of build.

music

“I Miss You” by Bjork. Fast drums (possibly bongo?) and light tambourine. Tambourine ceases; drums recede somewhat and change rhythm to make way for Björk’s vocals, which are growly, swooping, occasionally stuttering, and frequently change in volume. Brass instruments join in. I’m so impatient I can’t stand the wait When will I get my cuddle? Who are you?  

emily

Like, there’s this pull and she’s just talking about like I cannot wait for whoever I’m gonna meet next! And then it like builds and builds and builds until it gets to like one of the screams on the album.

music

“I Miss You” by Bjork, continued. I know by now that you’ll arrive By the time I stop waiting I miss you.

emily

I don’t know. It’s so exciting! Like, you—it—it—there’s just genuine tension. Like, I think a lot of that—that point in a lot of pop songs would feel a little obligatory? Like, okay, we gotta do something now before we do the chorus again. But this is just like—revving it up so you cannot wait for that last chorus. And it’s so… it’s so fun. I think that track is like… just makes me like giddy listening to it.

oliver

I also want to say that I think Björk at this era really was masterful at… engineering moments in songs. And a lot of it goes back to what we’ve been talking about in terms of how she uses her voice and that that going from the quiet to the scream? I mean, she has that down on lock! And so the changes in volume; the changes in inflection and how she pronounces things; y’know, she’s just—I think this was something that she actually thought a lot about in terms of—how do I produce these moments of surprise and of shit? And I’m gonna give it to you multiple times across all of the work I’m doing, especially in the ‘90s.

morgan

Right.

emily

There is this thing I thought of—because I was going and watching all these videos of course and then I ended up watching a lot more recent videos, too. And… thinking about times I’d seen her live. Which is two now. And very recently. Uh, relatively recently. But um… I think like… y’know, she—all the things she’s doing with her voice she is also doing with her face when she performs.

oliver

Mm.

emily

And it kinda made me think—and I think this is like, again, one of these sort of… sly benefits of not having—like, singing in not your first language, which is just like—I think that there’s an instinct to communicate even more through voice and through face. Um, and through enunciation, what you’re saying. Because you’re really trying to get yourself across. I mean, I don’t think that’s the only reason she’s doing that but I think that it’s one of these… I think that maybe, uh, a native English speaker wouldn’t necessarily be that, like, forceful getting these things across. And it’s, um, it makes it so much more exciting.

oliver

I would also wanna just add—this came to me earlier. Is that… just the song titles? Are so great on here? I mean, “Army of Me”—you’re just, instantly like—what does that mean? “Hyperballad”? I mean, I like ballads. I like hyper stuff. But what is a hyperballad?

crosstalk

Oliver: Right? Morgan: Right! Exactly!

oliver

I mean, “Possibly Maybe”—you don’t even have to hear the song to already get the sense of the coin is with it. and so [inaudible] with it. And so I just think they’re such great, just, song titles as well. So. Yeah. Shoutout to—Björk was killing on this one.

morgan

She was killing! [Emily laughs.] And she was asked about sequencing, would she change it? And she said, no. You only get one shot. And so it just is what it is. But it doesn’t seem haphazard.

crosstalk

Oliver: Oh, no, no, no. This is a very purposely sequenced album. Morgan: It seems very—very purposeful. Very purposeful. Emily: Yeah. Yeah.

emily

Yup.

oliver

We’ve been talking about how this album, uh, y’know—and I didn’t even really think about this until I sat down to write the script for today. It’s 25 years old, so a whole quarter-century has passed since this album’s come out, which only makes me feel old. And I know, Emily, you did not necessarily pick up this album in ’95, but you’ve clearly been sitting with it for at least 20+ years. What do you hear differently when you listen to this album now as opposed to when you first picked it up in Iowa City?

emily

I’ve been thinking about this a lot. Because… um… because another one of the albums that I suggested for this was a Fiona Apple album. Um, and it—similar time period that I got into her and was really into her. And I feel like, um… I’ve been really noticing as I get older… going back to albums that were made by artists the age that I am now? Because they were always older than me? So y’know, you kind of think of this—like, the—when you’re a teenager and you’re listening to Björk and this it’s like, well, this is all adult shit [though laughter] that she’s talking about. Um, but—but when you get past that age or when you find yourself in that same stage of life or going through the same sort of… um… relationship moments that she’s singing about… it just deepens your appreciation for it so much. Like, this was—this is like a mid-20s album for her. So I think—I think… the adventurousness of the album perfectly reflects that. This is like the perfect album to make when you’re at that time in your life. And now I’m a little bit older than that. [Laughs.]

morgan

Rub it in! [Emily laughs.]

emily

But, um… but like going back and listening then to—like, “Vespertine” or, um… or “Medúlla” and stuff. Like, I—I—I have a newfound appreciation for these albums now. Um, and I think that’s… that’s—you can only get that from like growing up with an artist and just consistently listening to their work. Which… you’re only gonna do that with like the best stuff. So. [Laughs.] Yeah.

morgan

Sure.

emily

Yeah.

oliver

If you had to describe “Post” in three words, what three words would you choose?

emily

[Sighs.] Um… okay. One is a hyphenate.

oliver

Okay.

emily

But it’s one of hers.

crosstalk

Oliver: We’ll count that. Morgan: Go ahead.

emily

“Self-sufficient.”

crosstalk

Oliver: Okay. Morgan: Mm.

emily

“Theatrical.” And… [sighs.] Yes! Uh… “Sweeping,” I guess! I don’t know! I—I hesitate to use that because there are so many parts of this album that I still feel like—like, especially when we were talking about “Isobel” and “You’ve Been Flirting Again,” like, there’s this, like… momentum to the whole album no matter how many different things it gets into that you just feel like you’re being carried along on this journey.

oliver

Yeah.

emily

Um, and I love that. Like, it’s—it is an album you listen to from beginning to end for that reason. And I—you said “hm” after I said “self-sufficient,” but I do think that’s so—lyrically, so many of these songs are about being self-sufficient.

oliver

That was an affirming “hm.”

crosstalk

Oliver: Not a questioning “hm”! Emily: Oh! Okay. Oh, okay. [Morgan laughs.]

emily

‘Cause I mean, like, musically I don’t—like, I think that it’s very collaborative. Like, very opposite of the mood that she’s singing about. But I think that, y’know, “Hyperballad” just being this song about… about being able to be emotionally self-sufficient, even when you are in a committed relationship. Is… just a great sentiment.

music

“Hyperballad” by Bjork. Slow, rhythmic strings—almost romantic—backed by fast-paced electronics and keyboard. [Fades into background as Oliver begins speaking.]

oliver

Lastly, we usually do recommendations for the next thing that people should listen to and me and Morgan are gonna give our recommendations for if you are a fan of “Post” and what you’d want to check out next. And we would’ve had Emily do it except we totally forgot to tape that when we had her in the studio. So our apologies to Emily. But what I would recommend—so if you’re a fan of Björk’s “Post,” go with Rufus Wainwright’s second album. So I’m keeping the theme of sophomore albums. And Rufus’s second album was called “Poses.” It came out in 2001. And I think, like “Post,” “Poses” was an album that really got people to pay attention to Rufus. As someone who was emerging out onto the pop scene back in the early 2000s. And there were, I think, similarities that you can draw between the ways in which Rufus—like Björk—was very much—is very much a baroque pop artist, and the way that he uses his voice and inflections doesn’t sound like Björk at all. But the same kind of dramatic, stylized vocalization, I think, is something that Rufus does in a way that you can draw parallels with that in Björk. And I’ll say this much, too—is that “Poses” is one of my absolute favorite albums of the 21st century. And I don’t remember if I’ve ever given Rufus Wainwright love on Heat Rocks before, but I love, love, love Rufus? And “Poses” was my gateway into listening to Rufus Wainwright. And I just—this album still holds up nearly 20 years later.

music

“Greek Song” by Rufus Wainwright. Loose, shambling drums, keyboard, percussives, guitar, overlapping vocals (both main and backing). One way is home and the other way is papa On either side, on either side, and prepared to strike When I get back I will Dream in Barnes and Noble’s Oh leave me here, oh leave me where angels fear to tread…

morgan

My recommendation would be… go back to last year. And get into an artist—if you’re not familiar with FKA Twigs and her album “magdalene.” Um, while, y’know, comparisons have been drawn to—between her music and trip-hop Massive Attack and Tricky, I think some of her intonations and they way she bodies certain songs will be Björk-reminiscent. The whispery vocals; um—the very interesting persona. And the very interesting artwork. And I think she mixes the ethereal with pop and R&B and I think it’s not, uh, not much of a departure to go from “Post” to “magdalene.”

music

“mary Magdalene” by FKA Twigs. Thudding drums, surreal, smooth synth, whispery vocals. A woman’s war Unoccupied history True nature won’t search to destroy If it doesn’t make sense…

oliver

Well that will do it for this episode of Heat Rocks with our guest Emily Yoshida. What are you working on right now?

emily

I am… [Theme song begins to play quietly in background. “Crown Ones” off the album Stepfather by Thes One of People Under the Stairs.] —wrapping up Shogun and working on some other projects, including a feature film! Double-fingers-crossed! I’m saying it on air so maybe it’ll happen! [Laughs.] But, um, yeah! Just, uh… continuing with the TV and film stuff right now and um—yeah.

oliver

Still recording Night Call?

crosstalk

Emily: Yes! Still doing Night Call. Oliver: So check out that podcast.

emily

Um… yeah. We’re on the—the iHeartMedia network and we come out every Monday!

oliver

And where can people find you out there on the interwebs?

emily

Mostly on Twitter, unfortunately. Um— [Morgan and Oliver laugh.] I, um…. I mean, I’ve been taking a break ‘cause I’ve been writing? But I’m still like—I’m still on this thing, aren’t I. Um, I’m @EmilyYoshida on Twitter. That’s probably the best place to… to see whatever I’m doing and thinking about and yelling about. [Laughs.]

oliver

Well, welcome back to Los Angeles! Thank you so much for coming through today.

emily

Thank you very much!

morgan

Thank you for picking this album.

emily

Yeah. Thanks.

oliver

You’ve been listening to Heat Rocks with me—Oliver Wong and Morgan Rhodes!

morgan

Our theme music is “Crown Ones” by Thes One of People Under the Stairs. Shoutout to Thes for the hookup!

oliver

Heat Rocks is produced by myself and Morgan, alongside Christian Dueñas, who also edits, engineers, and does the booking for our shows.

morgan

Our senior producer is Laura Swisher and our executive producer is Jesse Thorn.

oliver

We are part of the Maximum Fun family, taping every week live in their studios in the Westlake neighborhood of Los Angeles, where it is almost never oh-so-quiet.

morgan

Ah ha ha!

oliver

We want to thank all of our five-star iTunes reviewers, that latest of whom is Lindy Wasp. Who comments specifically about a recent show as part of the Music Popcorn series about “The Bodyguard.” And Lindy Wasp wrote in to say—quote—“I love the show. It is one of the few podcasts I never miss. The two of you are as much fire together as the jams you explore.” End quote. Oh, that is so sweet. And Lindsey—Lindsey Watts also gives shouts out to April Wolfe and uh, this is—the recommendation that they have as to who should play Kevin Costner, uh, in a Rihanna Whitney Houston remake? Chris Pine. Had to be one of the Chrises, I feel like.

morgan

Yeah. Yeah. Hemsworth or Pine. Yep.

oliver

I can roll with Pine.

oliver

Oliver: I’m fine with that. Morgan: I’m not mad at that.

oliver

Yeah.

morgan

I’m not mad at that.

oliver

Just no more samurai swords. Please.

morgan

He’s— [Laughs.] He’s— [Laughs.] [Through laughter] I feel you. He’s dreamy but he’s gotta come correct. We also wanna shout out our social media fans and family including the following—and first of all, before I go there, I wanna just shout out all of our social media people for having just the best social media handles. So we gotta start with BaconFromMacon. [Oliver laughs.] ‘K? Uh, who really enjoyed the Deep Dive into Brandy’s “Full Moon,” uh, with our guest P.J. Morton. We also wanna thank, uh, we also wanna shout out—wow! A former guest, Evelyn McDonald! Who shouted out the Manna Chalet episode, um, really love that with Ernest Hardy. Uh, we also wanna shout out Podcast Playlist, who really liked our episode with, uh, Lynnee Denise and Aretha Franklin. We also wanna, um, shout out KK Bracken, who liked the Whitney Houston episode about The Bodyguard. So many people like that episode! Thank you so much, and as always—shouting out Chris Malamphy for holding us down and always giving us love on the socials.

oliver

And just to circle back, we wanna really really thank Podcast Playlist because they replayed one of our episodes, which was heard across Canada.

morgan

Indeed.

oliver

And so if we have a new fanbase up there in the Great North? Welcome to Heat Rocks! Hope you stay with us!

morgan

Thank you so much. And also? Shoutout to Lost In Williamsburg for always holding us down, including last week. Uh, good to see you, Oliver!

oliver

Good to see you, too, Morgan. One last thing here—it’s a teaser for next week’s episode, which features Chicago by way of Vegas—actually, I guess he’s in L.A. now! But it’s gonna be producer and artist Cam O’bi! Is here to join us to talk about Kanye West. [Morgan lets out a low whistle.] Second album—sophomore album. Doing a lot of sophomore albums lately! I like that. “Late Registration.”

morgan

Indeed.

cam o’bi

So, and I was like—um… really into music. So I remember going to school and telling my friends, like, I think I was in… seventh grade. Sixth or seventh grade that year. And, um, I was like—yo, this dude is—he’s coming out with a album and like—at first they were like, okay. Y’know. But then I kept talking about him. Like, man, I’m telling you—Kanye West. And they got mad at me. Like, they were like— [Oliver laughs.] —dude, shut up about this dude! [Morgan laughs.] Kanye West! And I never forget—2004—this was two years after that—uh, I was in eighth grade, he dropped “College Dropout.” And then… everyone knew him. So I always had this special connection, I felt, to him.

crosstalk

Cam: ‘Cause I was like—I knew [inaudible]. Oliver: You were early!

cam

Exactly!

oliver

You were early on him! [Morgan laughs.]

cam

[Through laughter] Yes. I was early. Yes.

[No MaxFun outro?]