TRANSCRIPT Ep. 344: The New Mutants

Transcript

elliott
									
Hi, everybody. My name’s Elliott Kalan, The Flop House podcast on the MaxFun network. I just wanna let you know that we had kind of a bad internet connection at the very beginning of the recording of this episode. And it will improve? So please bear with it. Thanks to the magic of futuristic 21st century technology and the amazing skills of our editor, Jordan Kauwling, it will improve. So please bear with us and you’ll know when you get to the point where it’s fixed because it sounds better. Thank you very much! Enjoy the show!
dan
									
On this episode we discuss—The New Mutants!
elliott
									
Mm. They still got that new mutant smell. Love it.
music
									
Light, up-tempo, electric guitar with synth instruments.
dan
									
Hey, everyone, and welcome to The Flop House! I’m Dan McCoy.
stuart
									
Hey! I’m Stuart Wellington!
elliott
									
I’m Elliott Kalan.
stuart
									
And joining us we have a special guest this time—game director. Designer for Jackbox games and host of the hit podcast Hello from the Magic Tavern—it’s Arnie Niekamp [pronounces it Nee-camp]! Niekamp? [Pronounces it Nye-camp] Niekamp! [pronounces it Nee-camp.] [Elliott laughs.]
arnie
									
Hey, it’s Arnie Niekamp! [Pronounces it “Nee-camp.”] That’s alright. Everyone gets it wrong. It’s one of those names where you either get it wrong or you don’t have any certainty that you’ve got it right. [Multiple people laugh.]
stuart
									
I covered my bases. [Laughs.]
crosstalk
									
Elliott: We’ve got Arnie Mein Kampf with us. Very excited about it. I think I got it wrong also. Dan: It’s a very common—it’s a—it’s a common word, Stu.
dan
									
It’s where parents send their knees during the summer!
stuart
									
[Laughs.] Yeah.
elliott
									
Now let’s cut that off at the knees. That little bit. I’m sure it was gonna develop into something great. [Multiple people laugh.] I just wanna remind listeners—before we go on—that we do have a live show coming up, Saturday, February 6th, at 9PM Eastern/6PM Pacific. We’re gonna be talking about the movie Teen Wolf, one of the most-requested movies for us to talk about. Again, that’s Saturday, February 6th, 9PM Eastern/6PM Pacific. And for tickets just go to www.TheFlopHouse.simpletix.com. I’ll be telling you more about the show later in this show. Let’s get back to this hilarious Niekamp bit! So Dan— [Multiple people laugh.] What kind of activities do they have for knees at Knee Camp?
dan
									
No, no, no, no, no. I— [Laughs.] I wanted to keep it short ‘cause it’s perilously close to just making fun of someone’s name, which I don’t want it to. But I will say—
elliott
									
Wait—when did you start not wanting to do that? [Dan laughs.]
dan
									
I don’t— I mean, I—I do a lot of name puns. I wouldn’t call them like making fun of? But I feel like if we went further down this road it might turn into that.
elliott
									
Perhaps you don’t remember the old etiquette rule, “Saying a pun is still making fun.”
dan
									
[Laughs.] Uh-oh.
arnie
									
As a kid, definitely people always said “Knee Camp” [inaudible]. And I’m realizing as an adult I think the reason people often think my name is “Niekamp” [pronounces it Nye-camp] is they’re like, “Well it can’t—well it can’t be Knee-camp. Right?” Like—
dan
									
That would be absurd! [Multiple people laugh.]
elliott
									
What kind of a name would that be? As if Niekamp is any less of a—that there’s some kind of abstract value to Niekamp that is greater than Knee-camp. Like…
dan
									
Names can’t sound like words!
elliott
									
No! Impossible!
stuart
									
Yeah! And I mean, like, it’s—do you think it’s that people would think, like, no adult would ruin their child’s life— [Arnie laughs.] —by naming them “Arnie Knee-camp.”
dan
									
Oh wow.
arnie
									
That’s very—that’s a thing. And somehow I didn’t even—like, I think I didn’t discover how dumb that was for a lot of my life. Because as a child I was focused on how close to Ernie it was. The kids really latched onto that. [Inaudible] always call me Ernie. And then there was a long period of my life where everyone would assume it was every version close to Arnie—like, there are a lot of not common but just subtly more common names than Arnie? Like [inaudible] and Ernie and—yeah. So then yeah. So then I realized, yeah, “Arnie Niekamp” is horrible to say!
elliott
									
Now why don’t you just run ‘em together and be Arniekamp? Just be like a one word—like a Madonna or a Cher or a… Prometheus. Just a one-word name. Y’know. [Dan laughs.]
dan
									
[Through laughter] Prometheus.
elliott
									
They’re icons! Icons! Cher, Madonna, and Prometheus!
dan
									
I wanna stop talking about your name and actually start talking about your work. How does it feel—
stuart
									
I mean, Prometheus only had like the one hit, though. I don’t think it’s fair to put him in the same— [Laughs.]
elliott
									
Uh, fire is a big hit, Stu. And it’s not fair to judge him against the records of recording artists who are not chained to a rock so that a vulture can rip their liver out every day.
stuart
									
That’s true.
elliott
									
It’s gonna impede your work. But yeah. Let’s talk about your work, Arnie.
dan
									
I just wanted to ask, Arnie, how does it feel to know that the light and joy and saving that has come into people’s lives through Jackbox games during this pandemic? ‘Cause I know that I certainly have played more of them during this time and—
stuart
									
Yeah, Dan’s a huge gamer now.
dan
									
I am! I’ve become a gamer. Except for the ones you like. [Multiple people laugh.]
elliott
									
Dan said he heard about this Gamergate and he wanted to go through it. So— [Dan protests vehemently.] That’s really attracted him. [Laughs.]
arnie
									
Somehow stumbled on one of the things I would least ever wanna talk about. [Multiple people laugh.]
elliott
									
Oh, then let’s actually talk about your work, then! Yeah, does it feel good to be like, “Yeah, now people have to play my games and they love them!”
arnie
									
Yeah! It does! I’ve been working at Jackbox for like 15 years now? And there were definitely [inaudible] where it’s not a given that it would stay [inaudible]? Y’know? And we sort of made seven, I guess, party packs now? Thirty-some games? And it’s kind of incredible. It’s kinda sorta slowly starting [inaudible] more and more people kind of aware of it over the last couple of years. And then yeah. It kind of exploded during the pandemic.
stuart
									
Now with that much time at Jackbox, do you think it’s safe to say that you do know Jack? [Stuart laughs enthusiastically.]
dan
									
Stuart.
elliott
									
And now watching Stuart cross that off from his pre-written jokes list. So yeah. You’re saying Jack is kind of unknowable?
dan
									
Muscles—Stuart’s cat just came and started like ramming its face into Stuart as if to say, like, “Is something wrong? That laughter—"
crosstalk
									
Elliott: That was one—that was the closest I’ve seen to a cat trying to take the keys away from somebody. Yeah. Dan: “Was that your cry of—"
elliott
									
So you’re saying you don’t know Jack. [Multiple people laugh.]
arnie
									
I… I— [Laughs.] I used to—there were period where I really felt like [inaudible] Jack? But I’m always constantly reminded that it’s a lifelong journey to know Jack.
elliott
									
Yeah. Well he’s one of those one-word icons. Cher. Prometheus. Arniekamp. And Jack! Like, it’s just— [Laughs.] Just heroes.
dan
									
Okay. Well that’s enough nonsense. [Laughs.]
stuart
									
So Arnie, thanks so much for coming on the show! Uh, we’ve been wanting to have for a while. We love Hello from the Magic Tavern. I think Elliott and I have both been lucky enough to be guests on that program. And so it’s great to have you on here. Now why did you say, “I wanna be on this show. New Mutants. That’s the key to my enjoyment of The Flop House.” [Dan laughs.]
arnie
									
Uh, I—y’know? I will say first of all—I didn’t just pull New Mutants out of the whole world of movie going on.
stuart
									
Uh-huh. Sure. Okay.
arnie
									
It was definitely my favorite of the ones presented to me? And also I legitimately was looking for [through laughter] an excuse to watch this movie. Because [inaudible] I was kind of all onboard with the idea of it. It wasn’t like an intense like… comic book reader? But I definitely went through a New Mutants phase. And the whole idea of a New Mutants comic movie, like, combined with horror? Seemed like [inaudible] to me. And then, y’know. A lot of things happened and then eventually it came out and I was less excited about seeing it.
stuart
									
“Eventually it came out,” I feel like, is a truncated version of the troubled production history of this movie.
elliott
									
Well it seems like the movie had the kind of production history a normal movie has, just—yeah. Drawn out of a much longer period of time. And it’s interesting when you watch the movie that you watch it and you’re like, “Oh, this is—” not to jump ahead “—this is the movie that they had to keep going back and remaking? Like, this is—” [Laughs.]
dan
									
I didn’t wanna skip ahead to Final Judgments, but that was what I kept asking myself, too. ‘Cause I’m like, there are movies—not that this is particularly great. We’ll get to it. But there are movies far worse than this that they just toss on screen without thought. And like, with like advertising budgets and everything and I was like, what was it about this one that they’re just like, “We gotta keep working on it.”
elliott
									
My guess is that—so there is—I was reading up a little bit about this. And so this was… I think very much seen as like the—this was gonna be the way that Fox holds onto—or 20th Century holds onto the X-Men license. That the last few X-Men movies were kinda running out of steam. Time for some new mutants, if you will. And then people who made it—
dan
									
I don’t understand.
elliott
									
—wanted it to be a horror movie and the studio did not, and then the last X-Men movie—and it was supposed to tie more directly into X-Men: Apocalypse. And then X-Men: Apocalypse did not do well so they’re like, “Take all the X-Men: Apocalypse stuff out!” And then they’re like, “But we don’t want it to be a horror movie!” And then the trailer for It came out, apparently, and the trailer was such a big hit that they’re like, “Make it a horror movie again!” So it was really like—the studio was really chasing what they thought would be the hottest version of this movie and not—not letting the filmmakers just get to a regular tale of New Mutants running around a hospital being chased by silent hell monsters.
arnie
									
Hot off of the It trailer, they were like, “Make it a trailer.” [All laugh.]
crosstalk
									
Dan: “Could you cut, like… I don’t know. 92 minutes out of this?” Elliott: Well I kept—I kept reading— [Laughs.]
elliott
									
I kept reading how the director would send the trailer to people and they’d be like, “You got it! You nailed it!” And it’d be like, “How can you tell from the trailer?” That Bill Sienkiewicz was like, “You did it. Based off the trailer.” And it’s—I dunno. But I say this having—I was on Twitter earlier today and saw the teaser for the King Kong vs Godzilla trailer, and it was like, man. How much preselling is the trailer gonna have to have? And then I watched the trailer and I was like, “Oh, yeah, this is what I thought King Kong vs Godzilla would look like. It’s King Kong fighting Godzilla.”
dan
									
Now—
stuart
									
Directed by Adam Wingard! It’s crazy!
elliott
									
Mm-hm. Not—is he related to Jason Wyngarde, aka, Mastermind of the Hellfire Club in the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants? An X-Men character? I don’t know! Dan, what were you gonna say? A segue as good as that? I don’t think so! But say it!
dan
									
[Laughs.] Well no. I guess that is kind of a good segue ‘cause I was gonna ask two questions. Number one—
crosstalk
									
Elliott: “What a new mutant?” Dan: What is you guys’s—what’s sex? [Elliott laughs.]
dan
									
No, uh— [Laughs.] Number one, what is you guys’s history with the New Mutants, if any, and how do you think this would play to someone who has no association with the comic or the extended, like, Mutant-verse. Like, I will quickly say I know that I read the stories that this is based on? ‘Cause I read the Claremont/Sienkiewicz period of New Mutants? And I really liked those like spin-offs. That and Excalibur, I think, at the time I enjoyed almost more than X-Men. But I’d forgotten all of it. And I guess this stands alone, but I do think it would confuse people like why all this was happening. But anyway. You guys go. Elliott, you look like you have something to say.
elliott
									
Well I—so the thing is, my experience with the New Mutants in the comics has been a conflicted one. Because when I was growing up, the New Mutants was over, pretty much. And they had already transformed into the much cooler X-Force. Led by Cable.
crosstalk
									
Dan: Boo! Boo! Stuart: Absolutely. Yup.
elliott
									
And instead of like Wolfsbane, the goody-two-shoes, you had Feral. And Cannonball was still in there. But, y’know, like, Shatterstar was in there with his double sword blades and his double ponytails. You got two of everything with Shatterstar. Even the word “shatter” and “star” kinda sound like the same word.
dan
									
Aren’t double ponytails pigtails? Is that—
elliott
									
No, ‘cause they both came out of the back in the same place. I dunno, dude. Anyway. But—so the New Mutants has always seemed to me like a—when I was growing up was like, “Oh, these are the dull characters that turned into the crazy teen hormone explosion that is X-Force?”
stuart
									
Yeah. The pouch delivery system.
elliott
									
[Laughs.] Yeah. ‘Cause there’s nothing teens wanted more than guys covered in pouches! And they never open those pouches!
dan
									
Little tiny lines that don’t seem to indicate anything. Are they wrinkles? I don’t know! [Laughs.]
elliott
									
When I was 13, I loved that stuff. Give me more little lines. And looking back at those issues it is hilarious just how ridiculous the art—like, it’s un-look-at-able. But the—I’ve gone back and reread some of the New Mutants ones from that run and they’re good books but they just kind of like don’t… I don’t know what it is. They don’t grab me the way that like Claremont’s Uncanny X-Men run or his Excalibur run or—I mean, Excalibur, it’s—Alan Davis is the secret weapon on that title. But the—so watching this movie I was like, “Oh, yeah, this character—” Like, Dani Moonstar is a character I’ve never felt much connection to. [Dan laughs.] Dan, obviously you do.
crosstalk
									
Elliott: ‘Cause it’s the same name. But—no! And watching the movie—the weird thing is— Dan: And this movie will not change that. [Laughs.] We were like watching it like, “Oh, they made the least engaging one of these people the central character!” But we’ll talk about it for sure.
elliott
									
Watching it, it did feel like, “Oh, if I didn’t know the X-Men movies, I’d be really lost in this.” But it also—yeah. I’ve had no—I wouldn’t have a connection to it. But I do know the X-Men movies! So when Dr. Cecilia Reyes shows up I’m like, “Wait a minute! That’s not the way that character’s portrayed in the comic books!” Stu? What are your feelings?
crosstalk
									
Elliott: [Inaudible] New Mutants? Stuart: Yeah, I worked my way backwards through the New Mutants—
stuart
									
—starting with X-Force. And I remember really liking some of the stuff when they would—y’know, the crossovers with the X-Men. The annuals where they would go to Asgard. When Dani Moonstar becomes one of the Valkyries, I thought that stuff was all great and also it had art by Art Adams, which is great. And I always had a huge crush growing up I had a huge crush on Magik ‘cause she’s awesome and like a weird brat, sword-slinging, dimension-hopping monster. And I don’t know! I don’t know if that character was totally translated to the movies. But whatever.
dan
									
No. I mean, that’s one of the reasons I liked New Mutants, too, ‘cause I remember reading the Magik limited series, which kinda catapulted me into that.
elliott
									
Hello! Hi! This is Elliott Kalan, interrupting this show. I know. What else is new? Anyway, I’m talking to you from the future compared to what you were just listening to, but the past compared to where you are right now, listening. You might’ve noticed that the connection earlier between us and our guest was kinda bad. Earlier in the episode. Thankfully, from this point on we were able to correct it using the power of technology and also our editor, Jordan Kauwling. And so we now return to the slightly-better-sounding end half rest of the episode of New Mutants you’ve already been listening to. Thank you!
arnie
									
I was very drawn to the New Mutants, I think, from the covers? I was kinda just young enough that I was really into like Warlock, the robot who I guess is—which I’m sad was—
stuart
									
Alien.
arnie
									
Yeah. You’re right. He is an alien robot. Like, genetic robot? I dunno. It’s too hard to—
elliott
									
He’s a techno-organic being and that makes him a mutant. Is that on his world, they are naturally aggressive and hostile, but he is friendly. And so he’s like a programming mutant. That’s how they got him in the group. [Arnie laughs.]
crosstalk
									
Arnie: You could explain it that way. Dan: Yeah. I—I—
arnie
									
I prefer to like stammer on for about a minute trying to figure out how to explain what Warlock is.
elliott
									
You know what? To each their own. I apologize. Let’s do it your way. [Laughs.]
dan
									
He was definitely one of my favorites in the New Mutants and I’m sad that he was not in this. I guess they kind of nod to it with Alleria’s armor? A little bit?
elliott
									
Well, no, that’s her armor that she has in the comics, too. But they originally at one point wanted Warlock in this but it was gonna be too expensive. So the plan was to introduce him in the sequel where the New Mutants go to Brazil! That sequel was not made. [Dan laughs.]
arnie
									
And then apparently the third was going to be the Inferno comic book story. Which would’ve been cool as well.
elliott
									
It would’ve been really interesting to see how they do Inferno with—they cannot have a lot of the characters that are central to Inferno because they’re X-Men characters. Y’know. Unless they bring ‘em back! I dunno.
stuart
									
Maybe they’ll have the Hobgoblin become an actual monster like he did in the Inferno stories.
elliott
									
That was great! I mean, again, that’s a different company. Has the Spider-Man movies. But, y’know. I mean they’re all Disney now. Let’s do it. Let’s see it happen!
stuart
									
But he’s a Spider-Man villain. Does that mean that Sony has the rights to him?
elliott
									
It is. Exactly. And so the MCU only gets to use Spider-Man. That’s why Venom has his own spin-off series. So I guess Hobgoblin would turn into a demon in Inferno in the Venom movies. Which would be a strange distortion of the original actual history that happened. [Laughs.]
stuart
									
Uh-huh. But I’m still up for it. So. Our movie opens with Dani Moonstar giving us a little bit of a monologue about how every human being has two bears living [through laughter] inside of them.
elliott
									
Now, guys, is that true? Is it? Because I’m—
dan
									
I know that good things come in bears. [Multiple people laugh.]
elliott
									
Yeah. That’s—I mean, Dan, do not—you have to stop sticking your hand down bears’ mouths and into their butts. Because you’re not gonna find—you haven’t found a good thing yet and you’re not gonna find anything. At best you’re gonna find a half-digested salmon and I don’t think that’s what you want.
stuart
									
Dan, it’s talking like that that got you fired from the Care Bears store.
elliott
									
Yeah. He just has a penknife and he’s just digging open all the bears to find the good things—the jewels inside? ‘Cause this monologue, it bothered me, too. ‘Cause I know sometimes my tummy growls and I was like, “Is that ‘cause there’s a bear in there?” [Laughs.]
dan
									
I mean, I know that I’ve put on a little weight recently, but I don’t think there’s enough space in me for two bears. [Stuart laughs.]
arnie
									
What would it be like to work with someone in an office who really bought into this two-bear theory— [Elliott laughs.] —and explained everything they did? Like, “Oh, sorry, guys. Today it’s a bad bear day for me. I’m gonna be trying to be more of a good bear tomorrow.”
elliott
									
“The bears are not happy right now.” I mean, all people have duality. There’s a good side and a bad side and a bear side! [Dan laughs.]
dan
									
Well the way you—when you put it that way, Elliott, it’s like, “Why do we have to bring bears into it?” Like, “There’s a duality. People have a good side and a bad side.” Great. “There’s also bears inside you.” “Well now I’m confused.”
stuart
									
And in that office break room you’re not allowed to have one of those little honey containers that looks like a bear because that coworker gets upset?
elliott
									
Yeah. That would be—they would be—that’s problematic for them. Now, here’s the problem, is that every now and then someone is born with three bears inside them. And that makes ‘em vulnerable to having little blonde girls just climb in their mouths and sit on their chairs that are in there. Eat all the porridge. Sleep in the beds. You don’t want that. [Multiple people laugh.]
stuart
									
So Dani gives this little monologue about how everybody’s got a good bear and a bad bear. Well young Dani gets woken up by her dad. Something large and unseen is attacking the trailer that they live in. She runs off into the woods. This thing kills her dad. She is left knocked out in the snow. Only to wake up in a mental hospital chained to a gurney!
arnie
									
Can I just for a second go back? The part where her father is killed was pretty… comically bad, I thought. Like, he just walks off screen and then immediately like hops back onto screen dead. [Elliott laughs.]
crosstalk
									
Stuart: Yeah. It has all the timing of that scene in what—Planet Terror? Arnie: You’re forgetting— Dan: No, I mean, I—
stuart
									
Where [through laughter] the kid gets left alone with a gun— [Elliott laughs.] —and immediately kills himself?
elliott
									
And instantly shoots himself? [Laughs.]
dan
									
Now was the father’s death before or was that when it happened that there was just basically total blackness on screen with a bunch of sound effects?
stuart
									
Probably around there. I mean, I feel like that whole opening was—it was shot in a way to make it look like it’s in the middle of a snowstorm and it’s intentionally obscuring what could be behind them. But it’s—yeah. I mean, it’s—it doesn’t look good. It looks bad. It looks very cheap.
elliott
									
It’s a little bit, I think, of them trying to be a little cheap and also they want to save what that bear looks like for the big climax. So they’re doing a little bit of Godzilla: King of the Monsters thing here, where they’re like, “Let’s have this monster be obscured by snow and darkness.” But it doesn’t help with the poignancy of the dad’s death. But again, Stuart—as you’re saying—we don’t have long to focus on that because she wakes up handcuffed to a gurney. Uh-oh! Did the bear do that? [Multiple people laugh.]
crosstalk
									
Arnie: That was the good bear, right? Stuart: The bear did not do that. She—
arnie
									
The good bear, probably came in and got her to the local hospital. [Elliott laughs.]
stuart
									
Yeah. So she’s introduced to Dr. Reyes, who is—y’know, seems to be a psychiatrist or something at this mental hospital? Who tries to comfort and gaslight her at the same time, telling her that it was a tornado that killed her family and her whole town. And then Dr. Reyes welcomes her to a place for “New Mutants!” Title! Though we don’t know what her mutant power is. So—
dan
									
Now I just wanted to say a word about this institution, since we just arrived there? This is kind of—it’s like, y’know, like a halfway house for—like, they’re trying to make it sort of like—
elliott
									
No, no, it’s a whole house. [Dan laughs.]
dan
									
Like it’s for like troubled teenaged mutants. And the— [Laughs.] It will surprise no one who has seen a movie before that ultimately there’s more to this institution than meets the eye? But it seems like it takes the kids a very long time to like really have that sink in, considering that it appears that Dr. Reyes is the only doctor there.
elliott
									
Yes. Is the only staff member at all! There’s no maintenance staff. No janitorial. There’s nobody who works the front desk. Like, it from moment one feels like a woman is squatting in an abandoned hospital— [Multiple people laugh.] —and has kidnapped several children. Which is not that different from—y’know. What it is. But I was like—the whole movie, I was like, “Are they not gonna have anyone else work at this place?” Like—the fact that one of the new mutants is seen cooking and doing the dishes for the others. And it’s like, this is weird that he also, I guess, works there. [Dan laughs.]
dan
									
Even in Glass, where the fake institution was understaffed and incompetently staffed, they at least had like five people there.
elliott
									
Yeah. But no, this is just the one person. And it’s—
stuart
									
Yeah. And the whole place—the whole place feels rundown? There’s no fence—there’s no fence around it. There’s like a gate but the gate is opened. The kids are told—
elliott
									
An abandoned clock tower, for some reason?
stuart
									
And church!
elliott
									
And church, yeah. It’s a whole abandoned church—there’s an entire abandoned church and I could never be quite sure—the kids seemed to have the run of the place except for the times of day when the movie needs them not to have the run of the place and they need to escape to have the run of the place. Otherwise they seem to just be able to go wherever. It’s got a real Resident Evil/Silent Hill feeling of, like, “Here’s your limited are that you have freedom of movement in and you’re gonna be walking through a lot of empty rooms.” But anyway. I’m getting ahead of myself.
arnie
									
It’s got a real dreamlike quality that I kept trying to figure out if it was a choice? But I think wasn’t?
stuart
									
Yeah. And it—yeah. It feels unstuck in time, as well. I mean part of it is that it’s—this is a movie that—based on the slang the kids use and the musical choices—feels like it’s set in the ‘80s, I’m guessing. But—and there’s nothing to indicate—other than a few odd mentions of “mutants” and the “x-men,” there’s nothing tying it to a greater world that we understand. Like it could just exist in some kind of Sartre-style existentialist prison.
crosstalk
									
Elliott: Maybe it does? Arnie: They do watch Buffy the Vampire Slayer at one point?
arnie
									
So I guess it’s at least in the ‘90s?
elliott
									
So this movie apparently was supposed—again, it was supposed to be a follow-up to X-Men: Apocalypse. So it was supposed to take place in the ‘80s. And when X-Men: Apocalypse didn’t do well, they were like, “Forget the ‘80s.” And I think they just didn’t—it’s not like they— [Laughs.] They didn’t go out of their way being like, “Hey, did you hear Billie Eilish’s song? I love it!” Like just to get modern references in there? So I think they—I think they were going—I think it was probably originally written as an ‘80s-set thing and they just didn’t feel the need to put them all on Instagram. Y’know.
dan
									
Buffy would be later than that. But that, I assume, came from the reboot.
elliott
									
No, no, I think that was—I mean, I wouldn’t be surprised. If you guys saw Mank, where in a studio meeting they’re talking about movies that haven’t been made yet, disparagingly? The seen takes place in, what, 1930? ’31? And they’re talking about The Wolf Man? That wasn’t made yet! Excuse me! Take that, Mank. [Dan laughs.]
stuart
									
I kinda want to arrest whoever let Elliott watch Mank, because it’s been [through laughter]—
crosstalk
									
Stuart: —making its way into our conversations too often. Dan: [Laughs.] No, I love it! I was about to—
dan
									
I was about to suggest a new segment on our show, which is Every Episode, Elliott Brings Up One More Small Grievance About Mank.
elliott
									
I’ve got—there’s—the problem I have with Mank is that if the movie is not made for people like me, who is it made for? [All laugh.] And yet it is not made for people like—it seems to be, “Here’s a movie for people who are really interested in behind-the-scenes of Citizen Kane. But if you know about the behind-the-scenes of Citizen Kane, you will not like what you see.” Like, ugh. Man. Anyway. So that’s my recommendation, is The New Mank-ants. That’s my version of Mank, where I’ve re-edited it and re-cut it. It’s me playing the Gary Oldman part since I’m closer to Mank’s actual age than Gary Oldman is.
stuart
									
So yeah. The whole place feels run-down and abandoned. But there are a few high-tech security systems—
crosstalk
									
Elliott: Oh wait, guys, sorry. What if this movie was called—sorry, Stuart. Sorry, Stuart. Stuart: There’s cameras. There’s special locks.
elliott
									
What if this movie was called The New Muppets and it was all the Muppets that got kicked off? Like the host of that Muppets Live show or whatever, or the weird humanoid robot and like Bean Bunny? Like, all the Muppets that were never that popular and they’re stuck in there.
dan
									
[Laughs.] And that Caribbean Muppet that was from Muppets Tonight?
elliott
									
Muppets Tonight! That’s the one I’m thinking of! Who was the host of Muppets Tonight and then they just kind of like, “This isn’t working out. Let’s just—” And what if it was that?
dan
									
“Let’s just put Kermit in here.”
elliott
									
Would that be better?
stuart
									
Are you asking me?
elliott
									
Yeah. [Dan laughs.]
stuart
									
Oh. [Laughs.] Okay. Uh, let’s see… uh, I don’t care. So— [Multiple people laugh.]
crosstalk
									
Arnie: But wait. What would the second and third movie— Elliott: Okay, fair. Fair. Dan: [Through laughter] Oh god.
arnie
									
—in the Muppets trilogy be about? That’s what I wanna know.
crosstalk
									
Elliott: Well The New Muppets, they could go to Brazil. There’s no reason for them not to! Dan: Stuart! I’d like— [Laughs.] Stuart: That might make me care!
dan
									
[Through laughter] I’d like to point out, Stuart, that if it suddenly becomes allowed to not care about dumb bullshit then our entire podcast unravels. [Laughs.]
elliott
									
Yes. That house of cards was just gonna crumble. Fall to the ground. [Multiple people laugh.] And by “crumble” I don’t just mean the cards are gonna fall. The cards will crumble to dust. [Dan laughs.]
stuart
									
Yeah. [Laughs.] So. We meet the—
elliott
									
So they’re under surveillance.
stuart
									
We meet the other—we meet the other inmates-slash-patients. They kind of form like a weird little support group? For the most part these kids just kinda hang around and occasionally sit around in chairs and share their stories and listen to Dr. Reyes. We have Rahne, played by—oh man, I didn’t write that part down.
elliott
									
From Game of Thrones!
stuart
									
She’s from Game of Thrones. We have Rahne, who’s like a wolf girl. She’s sympathetic. She’s got a Scottish accent. We have Eliana—
elliott
									
That’s Maisie Williams. Maisie Williams is Rahne.
stuart
									
Maisie Williams. Thank you. We have Illyana Rasputin, who is the Lord of Limbo. She’s bitchy. She’s Russian. Well I think. [Multiple people laugh.]
arnie
									
I literally could not figure out what her—I didn’t hear her name? I didn’t figure out what character she was supposed to be [through laughter] until much later. Because I could not unravel the accent!
crosstalk
									
Elliott: Oh. Yeah. I think they made a mistake with that. Dan: Yeah. I gotta say—I mean, like—
dan
									
Anya Taylor-Joy, I think, is just transfixing. Like a great actor. I’ve loved her in basically everything? Here I’m like, I don’t blame her? I blame the director who heard that [through laughter] Russian accent and was like, “Yeah! Go with that!” Like… this is such a—it doesn’t sound like anything at all. And there’re a lot of—part of the reason why I blame the director is there are multiple weird accents. Like the kid from Stranger Things has the broadest, like, Appalachian accent. Which is—like, I mean, it’s actually kind of okay in the quieter scenes? But as soon as he gets made he’s like, [with strong Southern accent] “Well, heck! Yoo-hoo! Shoot!”
elliott
									
Yeah. He might as well be blowing in a jug the whole time and like—and dancing around—
stuart
									
Singing “Which Side Are You On?” or something. [Elliott laughs.]
arnie
									
The characters in this movie are less mutants; disgressive accent choices. [All laugh.]
elliott
									
Their power is the power to caricature actual regional dialects and sounds. But yeah. Anya Taylor-Joy, I think they would’ve—another thing where in the comics, of course, Illyana is the younger sister of Colossus, the Russian X-Man, and I think they probably should’ve just cut the cord and made her Russian-American and with an American accent. Because it does not—it doesn’t help her. To have this kind of like—it’s not even—it would’ve been way better if it was way over the top and it was like a Boris Badenov, like, Moose and Squirrel type Russian accent? But instead it’s just kinda like… it sounds like a teen girl who is trying on a persona. Y’know.
arnie
									
I—even if they had for a second just had a character say, “Ugh. She’s Russian.” [All laugh.] Like when I found out she’s Russian, I’m like, “Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can kinda hear it.” But I literally spent fifteen minutes of this movie trying to figure it out.
stuart
									
The—she’s kinda the troublemaker/bad boy of the group. Which—my wife pointed out—it makes it weird that she was the one selected to give Dani the tour around the place? Like, she clearly didn’t want the job.
elliott
									
Well I assumed that was a punishment on the part of Dr. Reyes. Like, “You’re being a jerk.” Also, oh, here’s my problem. Guys? Russian accent aside, how are we not talking about how she has a puppet named Lockheed who’s a little dragon? Uh, Lockheed is Shadowcat’s dragon? Illyana’s best friend? What is this all about? Suddenly—
stuart
									
Man. I can’t believe I lost the bet that you brought that up first. [Multiple people laugh.]
dan
									
Lockheed did come from Limbo, right? Like that’s where Kitty Pryde encountered Lockheed? Isn’t—
elliott
									
I honestly don’t remember.
dan
									
Didn’t Magik bring Lockheed back and then sort of Kitty inherited Lockheed? That’s—
elliott
									
No, ‘cause I think they went to—I’m trying to remember when they first went to Limbo and fought Belasco. But I think they had gone there before Illyana was a character. I’m not sure about that.
dan
									
Oh, okay. Well I mean, this is all nonsense that alienates the—
crosstalk
									
Elliott: I’m just saying. I’m just saying, this is—this is— Dan: —very small subset of people who listen to our show but don’t care about comics. [Laughs.]
elliott
									
Guys, if you’re watching Mank, get ready for some problems. If you’re watching this, get ready for some historical errors. And the historical error here is that Lockheed is Kitty Pryde’s dragon.
arnie
									
Although in the Muppets version of this, does the Muppet that is Magik have a human on her hand?
crosstalk
									
Stuart: Yes. Elliott: Well in the Muppet version—
elliott
									
—I think the dragon is probably what’s-his-name? Uncle Deadly? The actual, y’know, kinda dragon-y character? And Miss Piggy, of course, would be Illyana. But she’s not like a castoff Muppet! She’s the one big-name Muppet that they bring in for the movie, so that the real Muppet aficionados have to be in there. And y’know—
dan
									
Okay, okay, okay. Okay. I looked it up. Okay. Kitty—yes. Kitty found Lockheed, but—and it was, y’know, Kitty’s dragon mostly. But Lockheed occasionally accompanies Illyana after she joins the X-Men’s junior team, the New Mutants. So this actually would be appropriate to the comic Illyana.
elliott
									
Mm, alright. I’ll allow it. Okay. This is not what I would call an MS—a Mank Situation—so I don’t have a good argument. [Dan laughs.] Okay. Who—and what—are the other Mutants?
stuart
									
[Laughs.] Thank you. So we’re halfway through our Mutant descriptions. [All laugh.] We have Sam, who has the mutant power to cannonball all over the place. He’s kind of a blue-collar guy from Kentucky. He’s quiet. Brooding. Has a very—let’s say… aggressive accent. Yeah. I think Arnie put it best. So when he isn’t being quiet he is, y’know, y’know.
crosstalk
									
Elliott: And he’s constantly talking about— Dan: And he’s the older brother from Stranger Things.
dan
									
Have we mentioned that? I can’t remember.
elliott
									
I don’t think so. He’s constantly talking about being in the mines in Kentucky. Constantly. Like, never stops talking about being in the mines.
stuart
									
Mm-hm. He’s like Matawan. And then we have Roberto, who is a young Brazilian guy. He’s kind of a rich, macho jock character who—it’s clearly a façade. He doesn’t want people getting too close so they don’t get burned up. Literally.
dan
									
Mm-hm. Um… yeah. I agree. That these are things that happen.
stuart
									
[Laughs.] Okay. So we’re introduced to these characters as I said before, we—
elliott
									
Dan seconds that cast of characters. [Dan laughs.]
dan
									
Yup. Motion carried and proceed.
elliott
									
And that’s who’s in the movie. [Multiple people laugh.]
stuart
									
During our tour, Dani tries to run away. She tries to get out of there. Of course she runs right into an invisible wall. There’s a forcefield around the whole place.
dan
									
I also liked the clumsy shorthand during this tour where they walk outside and immediately Illyana takes some spray paint out of a hiding place and starts like she’s gonna do some graffiti and is like, “You’re my lookout!” And I’m like, “Wow. Shorthand for bad girl.” Right? Like, very quick.
stuart
									
So. Dani then has a flashback to about ten minutes ago from the opening sequence of the movie. She then climbs to the top of the abandoned clock tower. She appears to be contemplating suicide, and then Rahne shows up and they have a little chat and bonding and then they like fall down the floor and hug. [Dan laughs.] But they’ve all—
elliott
									
They don’t fall off the clock tower onto the floor. They fall backwards. Back into the clock tower. Yeah.
dan
									
There was a step in-between where they went back inside. [Laughs.]
stuart
									
Yeah, yeah. All the kids are being observed. As I said, the high-tech security systems are doing biometric scans on everybody to tell us how mutant they are. We’re told—the kids are all told that if they complete the treatment that they’re gonna be able to leave, possibly graduate and join the X-Men, and that Dr. Reyes has a mysterious, like, boss/benefactor/partner figure who the kids all assume is Professor X. Around now, Sam has a—this is when the movie kicks into the real horror gear. Where Sam is in the washing room—the laundry room, they call it—or the washing room. I don’t know. They don’t really address it. [Dan laughs.]
elliott
									
They never actually refer to it by any name, so. [Laughs.] So.
dan
									
[Through laughter] Yeah. That’s in the “goofs” section of the IMDB page. Is, “They don’t address whether this is a washroom or a laundry room at any point.”
elliott
									
“Unlike most movies that involve washing machines, this movie never addresses what the name of the room in which they’re located is.” [All laugh.]
stuart
									
Yeah. Sam has a psionic ghost event where he touches a washing machine and finds himself transported deep into the mines of Kentucky, surrounded by miners and his father, before being slammed out of it and slammed up against the wall. Spooky!
dan
									
Yeah, what’s going on?
stuart
									
I dunno! [Dan laughs.] But during this whole time, the registers are reading psionic activity coming out of Dani so there’s an obvious connection there. At least for us, the viewers.
elliott
									
And the psionic readings explain why they picked up Dani in the first place, since everyone keeps saying, “What’s your power? What’s your power? What’s your power?” That’s the way they know she’s a mutant, ‘cause otherwise there are times where I was like, “Well, how do they know she is a mutant if they don’t know what her power is; they’ve never seen her use it.” But.
dan
									
Thank you for that explanation, Elliott, ‘cause I had the same question [through laughter] when I was watching.
crosstalk
									
Elliott: Oh, this is me—this is me providing an explanation— Stuart: I mean, for the most part—
elliott
									
—based on the clues in the movie. They never say that. But I was like—
dan
									
Yeah. They didn’t even—they didn’t take any midichlorian levels, so how do they know? [Laughs.] [Elliott laughs.]
stuart
									
So Dani and Illyana get in a fight and they get stuck in solitary. This is when we get a little bit more of an idea that Illyana—despite her bad-boy—or bad-girl—front has, y’know, she’s got a troubled past. She has dreams of being a child surrounded by smiley-faced monster slendermen that dress like European fellows. And—
dan
									
I have to say, these slendermen—not to spoil what you’ve probably already surmised.
stuart
									
Yeah. You can spoil away.
dan
									
All of these manifestations are the fears of these characters? And I had to look on the Wikipedia page to figure out what Illyana’s fear was? Because this is the most—
elliott
									
Really?
dan
									
Well, ‘cause it’s the most abstractly-suggested one. It is just these like smiling men. Whereas everyone else’s fear is literally like a horrible thing that like happened to them, presented very straightforwardly.
stuart
									
I mean, I thought it was—I mean, I thought it was pretty clear that she was being human trafficked or something by these creepos.
elliott
									
Yeah. That’s what—it seemed pretty—that seemed pretty clear to me. Maybe Dan just has a purer heart and he doesn’t think the worst of the world. [Dan laughs.]
dan
									
No. I just, they were the only ones that are not a direct representation of the thing. Like, these are… monsters because the metaphor is that, y’know, she had these monstrous people do this to her. Whereas the other ones are like basically what happened.
elliott
									
Sam being in a mine and then seeing his dad and then blowing things up is not a metaphor for anything. Like it’s—yeah. That’s what happened to him. [Dan laughs.] But yeah. I think the movie is rightfully recognizing that it does not have the—
dan
									
Gravitas?
elliott
									
—shoulders and the gravitas to carry a realistic depiction of trafficking? And so has decided to do it in the form of slendermen.
dan
									
[Laughs.] Well let’s be clear. I was not arguing for that necessarily. I was just like—
elliott
									
No, I don’t think you were arguing either way. Just, y’know, that—
dan
									
“Why are these smiley slendermen all over the place?”
crosstalk
									
Arnie: Also, we have the scarcity of things that look or feel scary in any way. Elliott: I mean, it’s also possible—
arnie
									
So they’re just sort of like, “Maybe we can add this!”
elliott
									
Yeah. I mean, unless it is a little representation and she was kidnapped by a bunch of slendermen with smiley faces. And— [Dan laughs.] I mean, that would be—you’d think she would make that clearer to them. That she would mention, “Oh yeah, these are the monsters that actually took me ‘cause we live in a superhero fantasy world, so why can’t that exist.” [Dan laughs.] Y’know? “I teleport and I have a soul sword and one armored arm and a dragon puppet that is kind of also a dragon, so why not? I live in a magic world. Why not, guys? What’s wrong with that?’
crosstalk
									
Elliott: And the character she’s telling this to was a Muppet, anyway. So like, y’know. Stuart: So we didn’t really talk about this, but—
elliott
									
If Muppets can be in this world, why not, y’know?
stuart
									
We didn’t really talk about how Illyana’s power is to create these like stepping discs that allow her to teleport away. And you know me—my favorite X-Men ancillary characters are always the teleporters. I love Lila Cheney; I love Magik; I love—
elliott
									
Zero.
stuart
									
Yup. I love ‘em. All. So why does she stay in the place? [Laughs.] Why doesn’t she just leave?
stuart
									
Yeah. Yeah.
stuart
									
Do they address that?
elliott
									
They do not. My guess is that perhaps there is some kind of block going on for her power? That the force fields are also affecting her ability to use her power to do that? Or also—she recognizes that, “Y’know what? Deep down I do need help. And I have trauma that I need to deal with and maybe this isn’t the best place to deal with it? A severely understaffed haunted hospital? But y’know, you gotta play the cards life deals ya. Y’know.” [Laughs.]
dan
									
Now, the first time she teleports—forgive me if I’m wrong—I may have blinked and missed it. I don’t think they do the portal thing, which annoyed me. I think she just kinda bamps like Nightcrawler.
elliott
									
No, that’s true.
dan
									
Later on you see a portal, but.
elliott
									
Well I think they’re making a distinction, I think, between when she teleports in this world and when she travels through the magical universe of Limbo, which she has either discovered through escaping trauma or has invented. It’s—they’ve just kinda given her general, like… magic powers. Y’know.
dan
									
Yeah. Not to get—again—way back too deep into nerdship. I guess it’s The New Mutants so what are ya gonna do? I always thought that her teleportation power always was through Limbo, though. She’s like—
elliott
									
Yeah, it was.
stuart
									
Yeah. Okay.
elliott
									
Hey, man. I’m just telling you what it looks like in the movie.
stuart
									
Yeah. So around now, Rahne has her own like psychic psionic ghost event where she is at the rundown church. The abandoned church. And she’s confessing her sins to what you assume to be no one. And then she hears a ghostly voice of a priest who had abused her in the past. [Deep breath.] The kids—we find out—
elliott
									
She’s kind of—has she mentioned already that she went to a priest and told him what her—told him about her power and he told her she was evil. That she was a demon. And she has either an M or a W branded on her neck.
dan
									
I believe it is a “W” for witch.
elliott
									
Or “Wolfsbane.”
stuart
									
“M” also works.
crosstalk
									
Elliott: That’s her superhero name. Or “Wolf.” Or “M” also works for Mutant because Rahne—as you’ll find—and for Muppet! Dan: Or Wolf. Or Wolf. Stuart: Yep. [Laughs.] Or Muppet! Arnie: Or “Muppet!”
elliott
									
Yeah. Because Rahne, as you’ll notice, has Lew Zealand powers? Where she kind of puts on a frilly outfit and throws fish? [Dan laughs.]
dan
									
[With Lew Zealand accent] I throw the fish and they come back to me! [Regular accent] Maybe that’s why he chose a W ‘cause he knew that it could be seen as an M and there are all these levels. There are all these different levels.
stuart
									
Yeah. He likes references. He likes—y’know, he likes somebody giving you something to think about. So the kids have— [Dan laughs.] —a secret attic—
elliott
									
What good is religion if not to give us something to think about, y’know?
stuart
									
Yeah. No. That’s a good point.
stuart
									
The kids have a secret attic where they claim there’s no cameras so they can do whatever they want. Although I think we do see that there is a camera up there, watching them. And they decide to play a game of truth or dare, but actually there’s no dare. It’s just truth. And they use a lie detector, which they use the blood pressure gauge and put that sleeve right over their clothes. Which I think is probably a representation of their mutant powers. Their—
dan
									
Like a heavy fucking denim jacket. They put that band around it. I’m like, what do you think that’s gonna do, man?
elliott
									
I mean, guys, I hate to break it to you. Lie detector tests also don’t work, so it’s fine. Just like put it over a hat. Like who cares? [Multiple people laugh.]
stuart
									
Do you think the actor who plays Sam, when they’re like, “Okay, so we have to—you have to take off the denim jacket.” And he’s like, “Oh, no. I just got this full sleeve of tattoos.”
elliott
									
He goes [with thick Southern accent] “Read my contract! It says, ‘No jacket, no shoot.’” “Okay. Let’s see. It does say that. He does not have to shoot scenes without the jacket on. Oh boy.”
arnie
									
Also, kids that are spending—or teenagers that are spending a lot of their days doing group counseling, at night they like to blow off steam by forcing each other to unburden themselves with stories? [All laugh.]
elliott
									
That’s a good point! They probably don’t have secrets from each other at this point, so why—you’d think they would really heavily go on to “dare” since they’re all mutants and they can do crazy mutant things, but no. Truth is it, y’know.
stuart
									
They’re like, “We were gonna do dare but there’s no budget for it.” [Multiple people laugh.]
elliott
									
It’s like someone who works at an ice cream store and they’re like, “I gotta go home and get some scooping in. I just gotta relax this arm and scoop some more.”
stuart
									
Yeah. So Dani shares that story of the demon bear. Once again just to do a little flashback. So everybody has two bears living inside them. [Multiple people laugh.] There’s a good bear and a bad bear.
crosstalk
									
Stuart: When you’re a little kid— Elliott: We call—they’re called—Dani—
elliott
									
Dani describes them as a Yogi and a Boo Boo. And the Boo Boo is the good bear and the Yogi’s the bad bear. [Multiple people laugh.]
dan
									
Yeah. I mean, y’know, he’s a bad bear. But he’s not that bad. It’s mostly like pick-a-nick basket theft.
crosstalk
									
Dan: Is the farthest he’ll go. Elliott: He’s the thief, Dan!
elliott
									
He’s the thief! Okay. Imagine this.
dan
									
Yeah. To feed himself!
elliott
									
Okay. I’m someone living close to, if not below, the poverty line. I don’t have a home and I don’t—and this is the most—the only food I’ve been able to scrounge up. I’m going to go to the park to eat it and a bear takes it from me. A very well-fed bear wearing a hat and a tie. That’s right—he’s a white-collar bear and he’s stealing my only meal. Not okay. That’s—that’s a hard crime. That’s bad.
stuart
									
So when you’re a little kid, this bear—the bad bear starts real small. But as you get older that bad bear inside you gets way bigger. Right guys? You can feel it. You can feel it get bigger inside of ya.
dan
									
Well, I mean, this last few years I can feel bad bear getting bigger inside of me, certainly.
stuart
									
So they had this little hang and then the next morning Reyes—Dr. Reyes—yells at them. She gets mad and tells them that if they keep fucking around they’ll never get to leave. So of course they drug her and knock her out and they have another Breakfast Club-style ‘90s kids party where they dance to “Bastards of Young” and I’m like, “That feels like when you watch a movie from the ‘80s and the kids are all dancing to fucking doo-wop songs and you’re like, ‘What?’” [Multiple people laugh.]
dan
									
Well but also I was like— [Laughs.] Look. I love the Replacements. I was thrilled to hear “Bastards of Young” play. But no. I was like, is this what people—like, kids this age at this time period were listening to?
elliott
									
Well even the fact that they literally drugged the tea of their only authority. And they’re doing stuff they could’ve done probably when she was awake. They’re just dancing to music. Y’know. Unless she’s Dr. Footloose— [Dan laughs.] —I don’t see it as a problem.
dan
									
“Dr. Footloose, I’ve come as soon as I can! My foot is—my foot is [through laughter] falling off my leg.”
crosstalk
									
Elliott: “Oh, we get this a lot. That’s actually a mistake.” Dan: “No, that’s not actually—common—"
elliott
									
“That’s not what I specialize in.” [All laugh.] “It’s just a name. From the German ‘Futloshen.’” [All laugh.]
stuart
									
Yeah. So it does feel a little bit—the non—like, the media in this movie, whether it’s the music or the Buffy the Vampire Slayer, feels a little bit like a dad is forcing his teenage kids to watch what he liked growing up. [Dan laughs.]
crosstalk
									
Dan and Elliott: Yeah.
stuart
									
So now that they have no supervision, they go off and do their fun things. Rahne and Dani go out to a graveyard and watch the rain fall on the forcefield and they make out a little bit. Berto and Illyana go swimming—or so he thinks, because Berto gets a visit from a little flaming ghost of his dead girlfriend. That’s right—he has a psionic ghost event! Uh-oh! And that forces him to manifest his mutant power, which is to turn into a big flaming version of himself, which is the same size as the normal version of himself. And everybody freaks out— [Elliott laughs.] —and then Dr. Reyes grabs a stick and pushes him into the pool. Which was pretty funny.
elliott
									
Yeah. You said that as if you thought it was disappointing that he didn’t turn into a giant version of himself.
stuart
									
[Through laughter] Yeah.
dan
									
I—so… [Laughs.] Okay. This flaming ghost is his girlfriend that he accidentally—
elliott
									
Great name for a ‘90s band. “The Flaming Ghosts.”
dan
									
His girlfriend he accidentally set on fire. Now this butts up against one of my problems with the X-Men and mutant books in general? As much as I love them? So you’ve got—he kills his girlfriend. Cannonball killed his dad and all of the people in the mine. Dani is causing untold chaos. And I do not— [Laughs.] I don’t think I need to say this—I do not sanction the kidnapping and either euthanasian or weaponization of these mutants in it, but it also does raise the question like, “Well… these people are kinda dangerous. They’ve killed a lot of people. I mean, it’s accidental, but…”
elliott
									
I mean, in Illyana’s case it was not accidental. She brags about killing eighteen men with her sword.
dan
									
Sure. But those were her captors. That’s a little more understandable than just like—y’know, a couple of them killed their parents accidentally. I’m not—y’know, they shouldn’t be punished for it at all? But it does cut against this idea of like, “Yeah, but they killed these people.”
elliott
									
Well I’m gonna let you in on two thoughts I’ve had about the X—my—two of my issues with the X-Men. One is societal, and the other is biological. So societal. The X-Men—it’s basically understood as canon in comic books readership world, for anyone who’s not a comic books reader, that the X-Men are a Civil Rights allegory where it is about people who are different than everyone else who are demonized for their differences. But you’re right. What they have is genuinely very dangerous and it’s like… the analogy starts to fall apart when it’s like, “Well, non-white-people can’t shoot uncontrollable laser beams from their eyes.” Or like, y’know, like, it’s—
dan
									
There’s no danger that a gay person is going to Dark Phoenix on you. [Laughs.]
elliott
									
No! Yeah! That a Black person at the age of thirteen will accidentally explode and kill a town. Like, that doesn’t happen. So that’s where that analogy starts to fall apart. But the other thing is that—so they’re always talking about how they’re the next step in evolution. Like, Homo superior is here. And it’s hard for me to see what is the evolutionary advantage of getting so burning hot that you cannot mate and reproduce and pass on your genes to another generation? [Multiple people laugh.] Or like, what is the evolutionary advantage of, y’know, exploding sometimes and accidentally? Like, it’s—evolution usually—I mean, there’s all sorts of different mutations in nature. But often the mutations that hurt the host or their mate don’t pass on? Because—and the things that are—so it’s like, you’d think that there’d—I guess what I’m saying is you think there’d be more useful and less fighting-based X-Men powers. Evolution usually—it’s not like suddenly someone is born with a sword for a hand ‘cause it helps them be a better fighter. Like, fighting is not really one of the things that evolution gets you to usually.
dan
									
Well I mean, what you’re saying makes sense in the context of, like, actual evolution as it happens. Although it does— [Laughs.] Like, I mean like there are all sorts of yeah. As you say, detrimental mutations that aren’t passed down. Like that’s how they’re filtered out over the years. But mutations as they occur in Marvel universe are just randomly springing up extremely powerful deviations [through laughter] from the norm. But.
elliott
									
Well yeah. But it’s—but it’s like—I understand the evolutionary advantage of being able to control the weather. That would be great. That would help humanity immensely. But again, the lasers shooting out of the eyes or like so many mutants have the ability to absorb energy and then blast it out as lasers? And it’s like, how is that helpful? In any way?
crosstalk
									
Elliott: Digging tunnels, I guess? Arnie: It seems like the only evolutionary— Dan: I’m just saying that—
arnie
									
It seems like the only evolutionary—oh, go ahead, Dan. Sorry.
dan
									
No, sorry. Just to directly respond to Elliott, it seems like these mutations are not like naturally selected for, though, Elliott. What you’re saying makes sense in the context of natural selection, not in the context of, “Oh, we gave birth to someone who’s a teleporting demon blue thing.” [Laughs.]
elliott
									
Well and also—well and also because I guess the evolutionary purpose is to make them cool battlers for superhero battles. But like, I’ve been reading a lot of the old X-Men issues with my older son. We’re going through the first 60-some-odd issues in order. And it’s so often so many times that he’s like, “Why are they not using their powers smarter?” Or he’ll point at Beast and he’ll be like, “Well, Beast just has big feet. Like, that’s his mutation? He’s got big feet?” But.
dan
									
Sorry, Arnie. What were you saying? I didn’t mean to—
arnie
									
I was just gonna say in this movie their only real evolutionary advantage is the ability to kill their parents. [Dan laughs.]
elliott
									
Which—I mean, Freud would tell you—is the ultimate mutant power. Yeah.
dan
									
The ultimate one. Yeah.
stuart
									
Yeah. Any time I got assigned extra chore I wish I was a mutant, right?
dan
									
Um…
stuart
									
Allergic to homework! [Elliott laughs.] Okay! So—
elliott
									
That’s not a power. That is a mutation. An allergy. But it’s not— [Multiple people laugh.]
stuart
									
Okay. So Dani’s powers continue to intensify. The nightmares become even more vivid. And more—and they’re having more of an effect on reality. At one point, Rahne gets assaulted in the shower by like a zombie version of the priest that she had killed who had previously branded her? And he brands her again, this time on her neck. And it’s horrible. And then— [Laughs.] Reyes—around now, Reyes get a hilariously long-loading email— [Elliott laughs.] —where it’s one of those like—those like sci-fi emails where like you’re slowly watching it get typed out? [Elliott laughs.] And you’re like, shouldn’t this— [Laughs.] Why is this worse? [Dan laughs.]
elliott
									
I love the idea of a software developer that was like, “I want people to feel the excitement of watching a story unfold. So I’ll have each word type out individually instead of just all the text coming up on screen, which would take less power. Less computing power.”
stuart
									
Yeah. [Laughs.] Yeah. I mean, it’s got killer graphics and that’s what kids like. Uh—
arnie
									
Can I say—if you could send a dramatic email like that? Like if that was just an option in your Gmail or whatever? I would do it occasionally. If not too much.
stuart
									
I think you’re right. I think—I mean, I think we’re making jokes—we gotta TM this shit right now, right? So somebody doesn’t steal our idea? Dan. This is your idea, too. You gotta get in on this.
crosstalk
									
Elliott: Wait, wait, wait. Whoa, whoa. Since when was Dan involved in this idea? Dan: Okay. Wait. No, wait—what—so— [Laughs.]
dan
									
So you’re saying—seems like Stuart is saying that is a covenant that must be entered into with all parties. [Multiple people laugh.] Or else—
stuart
									
Yeah. Everybody here. Everybody in the room. Otherwise Smiley will show up and kill us.
dan
									
Exactly.
elliott
									
And steal our IP.
stuart
									
Yeah. So Reyes gets this email and explains that Dani is too powerful. That she has to eliminate Dani. So Dan, I’m sorry if—by saying Dani all this time—it makes you uncomfortable. She just has the same name as you, basically. So—
dan
									
Apology accepted. [Elliott laughs.]
stuart
									
Reyes takes Dani to the basement. She, y’know, I think she explains to do tests or something? But then she— [Laughs.] At this point she’s like, even though Dani is too powerful to live, Reyes knows she has to kill her. She slowly poisons her, giving her ample time to use her mutant powers to create an army of slendermen that attack Illyana, Sam, Berto—there’s slendermen running all over this asylum. Right?
elliott
									
Attacking everybody except the one person who is hurting Dani at that moment.
stuart
									
Mm-hm. Well she doesn’t have control over her powers yet, Elliott. That’s kind of the point.
elliott
									
I guess that’s true. That’s fair.
stuart
									
Rahne sneaks through the ducts and jumps down on—they—like, Rahne is sneaking through the ducts. Illyana is teleporting all over the place. Sam is using his blasting powers? Which basically like he explodes and flies, blowing up everything near him? Which is great in these enclosed hallways. Like, yeah.
elliott
									
Well there’s a reason his mutant power—his mutant superhero name is “Cannonball.” But it’s also—
stuart
									
Which is—it makes me think, like, if Oldboy in the movie Oldboy had had this power, that fight scene wouldn’t have been as cool, right?
elliott
									
Mm-hm. Instead of having the power of looking old even when he’s a young man—which is the same power Gary Oldman has in Mank— [Multiple people laugh.]
dan
									
Stuart, I imagined you—like, this was your—that you were one of those senators in an ­X-Men movie or comic who’s like trying to get rid of mutants? But your reasoning was just like how it would make Oldboy less cool? [All laugh.]
stuart
									
Now if Oldboy had telekinesis, for instance, he could just pick people up and throw ‘em around!
elliott
									
[With Southern drawl] Now, I’m Senator Stuart Wellington from the great state of Louisiana. Now let’s say your Old Boy had a ruby quartz eye lasers, then that hallway fight scene would be over real fast! How do you say to that, Professor Xavier?
crosstalk
									
Dan: I like that— [Laughs.] Stuart: “Every time Old Boy stared at his daughter-lover—” [Elliott laughs.]
stuart
									
“He would accidentally blast her to pieces!”
dan
									
This argument is basically like anti-mutant in the same way you’d be like anti-cell phones in movies. Like, “It ruined all the plot points!”
stuart
									
I do wanna point out that Sam uses his power and he blows these slendermen apart, but previously they’d address that—though he can use his power—he can never land. And so he’s always like slamming into things and he’s got broken bones and his face is all fucked up. But he uses his power here and then the next time we see him he’s totally fine. They don’t even show him land. I’m guessing it’s cause there’s—I mean, this whole movie feels like there’s about a third of the effects shots were just not included?
elliott
									
Well here’s my guess about why he’s so beat up. So I don’t know if it’s this way, but in the comic books, Cannonball—when he’s in cannonball form—cannot be hurt? He’s super tough? So I think those are his injuries from the mine disaster. That he set off this mine disaster and broke his arm when it caved in on him or maybe a Grendel was like, “Hey! Why’d you blow up my mine?” And beat him up or something like that. Yeah.
stuart
									
Uh-huh. So. So they realize that they’d been duped. That they find like the files in the—in Reyes’s office because once again there’s nobody else in this place. [Elliott laughs.] And they realize that they’re being trained to be killers and they decide to turn on Reyes, which is great because it this point Rahne has already jumped down out of the ducts and slashed up Reyes super-fucking-bad. Like, Rahne—like at first I’m like, “Oh, she just scratched her.” But later on we see Reyes and she’s like ripped to shreds, dude. She’s been Freddy Krueger’d and a half.
elliott
									
She’s like holding her innards in with her arm, basically. [Multiple people laugh.]
stuart
									
Yeah. So they think they got the jump on her and Reyes instead traps them in force bubbles, which look terrible. [Elliott laughs.] This is a terrible effect. [Dan laughs.] They are in like glowing, like… Star Trek bubbles. And she’s slowly smushing Dani and smushing them all in these bubbles while giving some kind of a speech about how—I dunno—like they’re too powerful to live or something and they should’ve been more respectful or something.
elliott
									
Now I wanna—I wanna briefly defend not these scene or the bubbles, which do look terrible, but the character of Cecilia Reyes. In the comic books, what sets her apart from the others is she is a good person who does not wanna be a superhero and just wants to be a doctor. And so I felt like they were really slandering this character by making her so incredibly evil. When in the comics, she is maybe the most reasonable character in the entire Marvel universe. She’s like, “Okay, I can make force fields, but like I can probably help people more by being a trauma surgeon—” [Dan laughs.] “—than by fighting Mr. Sinister,” who gets hinted at in this movie but we never actually see him.
arnie
									
Maybe they wanted to use her because they’re like, “We need at least one superpower that we can actually depict in this movie.” Because every other—even like… even werewolf transformation—like they can’t depict almost any of the powers in this movie very well. Which is one of the bigger problems, I think.
stuart
									
Yeah. I mean, I don’t know if it’s because they chose characters that are hard—like, I don’t know if they chose Illyana Rasputin—if the script originally had like Shadowcat or something, that’s why Lockheed’s there? But then they’re like, “Oh, we got Anna Taylor-Joy. She’d be perfect for this role.” I dunno.
dan
									
“She does such a great Russian accent!” [All laugh.]
elliott
									
“Her resume says ‘Does Russian accents,’ so this is perfect! Do we need to hear the accent first to try it out?” “No, no, no! She’s great! Did you see Queen’s Gambit? It’s not out yet, but I saw an early cut of it. It’s fantastic.” And then she gets on set and she’s like, [with poor Russian accent] “Y’all, this is my accent.” And they’re like, “Oh, boy. Oh.”
stuart
									
Eeee! Okay. So—
elliott
									
She’s great in Emma dot. She’ll be great in this!
dan
									
Again, great actor. [Laughs.] Make it clear.
elliott
									
She’s really good. She’s really good in lots of stuff. She was great in The Witch. Like, she’s really good in lots of stuff. But this accent does not—
dan
									
Thoroughbreds. Very good.
stuart
									
And yeah. And this Spilt/Glass-iverse, right?
dan
									
Yeah.
dan
									
Splass-iverse.
stuart
									
Yeah. So Reyes has ‘em in force bubbles. She’s slowly smushing ‘em. And then—uh-oh! What’s that? There’s snow outside? It sounds like a wind? Uh-oh! The wall gets ripped open and there’s a giant demon bear there. And the demon bear totally scarfs down Reyes just like in Deep Blue Sea. It’s awesome. [Multiple people laugh.]
elliott
									
[Through laughter] It is just like in Deep Blue Sea! Yeah! [Dan laughs.]
dan
									
Can we talk a little—let’s talk a little bit about this demon bear. So there are a few things I—
elliott
									
No, Dan. Let’s not. Let’s talk about Muppets again. [Dan laughs.]
crosstalk
									
Stuart: Well Dan, it—the thing is, is that everybody has two bears living inside them. [Laughs.] Dan: I’d be happy with either. [Multiple people laugh.]
arnie
									
I know this is meant to be up to the audience interpretation, but do we think that’s a good bear or a bad bear?
elliott
									
Now I think it’s—
crosstalk
									
Stuart: [Through laughter] That’s a good point! Elliott: It’s—that’s a good question!
elliott
									
‘Cause it is a bad bear who becomes kind of a good bear.
dan
									
Yeah.
elliott
									
Well it’s—well she says—she also—is it here or is it later she says that the two bears—you decide what you feed them. That’s the empowering message of the movie, is you can feed the bad bear with your fears and your hatred or you can feed the good bear with love. And that’s the one—the one that gets stronger is the one that you feed. So maybe she feeds it a bunch of love? And that’s why it turns into a good bear? Maybe there’s two bears—no—
arnie
									
She feeds it a doctor!
crosstalk
									
Stuart and Elliott: That’s true!
elliott
									
A bad doctor, so it makes it into a good bear? This is confusing. I guess in every bear there are two bears. A good bear and a bad bear. [Dan laughs.] And depending on which one is—I guess—
crosstalk
									
Dan: Oh, boy. Oh, god. Oh! Elliott: —getting its tummy scratched at the moment, that’s how the bear goes—
elliott
									
Dan, it’s all bears, all the way down. Everything’s got two bears in it.
dan
									
God. I’m staring into the void and it’s staring back!
crosstalk
									
Dan: No, what I wanted to say was— [Laughs.] Yup. Elliott: Mm-hm. When you stare into the abears, the abears also stare into you. [Laughs.]
stuart
									
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s what my buddy Werner Herzog says. He says, [with German accent] “Jawohl, there’s two bears in every body.” [Dan laughs.] “A little bear and a big bear. One is good—"
crosstalk
									
Arnie: Stuart, I think you’re ready to be a character in this movie. Stuart: “—one is bad.” Elliott: [With German accent] “And in one bear there’s two people!”
elliott
									
“That’s the bear from Grizzly Man!”
stuart
									
[With German accent] “Jawohl! Yeah, yeah, it’s me! Werner Herzog!” [Laughs.]
dan
									
[With German accent] “My power is a secret.” [Multiple people laugh.]
crosstalk
									
Elliott: Yeah. [German accent] “It’s me, Werner Herzog, and we’re going to be checking out the ten hottest spring break beaches today on E’s hottest spring break beaches!” Stuart: Ohh, I’m a sneaky dude!
elliott
									
“Hosted by me, Werner Herzog!” [Dan laughs.]
stuart
									
So Dani at this point is passed out and the team is left with this—
crosstalk
									
Stuart: —fucking demon bear. Dan: [Through laughter] I never said what I—
dan
									
I wanted to talk about this bear a bit. Number one, I genuinely like the look of this bear. I like the demon eyes. I like the way the fur kind of like coils into smoke like it gets indistinct on the edges? But I do think that there’s a weird thing that movies always do, which is they like… y’know, put a little too much sugar in the sauce or something? Like it doesn’t—I think this bear would’ve been much more scary if it was just maybe slightly bigger than a real grizzly bear and just a little more like… just a solid thing that a human mind, y’know, has some sort of familiarity with it? ‘Cause when it’s this big—albeit cool-looking—bear, I’m just like, “Okay, well this is CGI and if it was a little more like… fantastic but down-to-earth I would’ve been a lot more frightened by it.”
elliott
									
Oh, see I have to disagree with you there. Because I think—I like this bear a lot, but I do think they err on the side of making it look too much like a real bear. And I wish it had more of that Bill Sincavage feel of being kind of like semi-abstract and scratchy and hard to wrap your mind around. But—
crosstalk
									
Elliott: —different bears for different cares! Dan: That’s a very good point, too.
dan
									
No, no, Elliott—Elliott, I think you make a good point and I think maybe the problem is it’s neither fish nor fowl. Like it should’ve gone one way or the other.
arnie
									
They show some of the original drawings—or at least recreations of them—during the credits, as if to say, like, “See? This could work!” [Multiple people laugh.]
stuart
									
Yeah. And Bill Sincavage did the art during the credits, too. All the character art.
crosstalk
									
Elliott: Yeah. He was surprisingly—surprisingly involved, yeah. Arnie: Oh, that—yeah. I wasn’t sure, yeah. Dan: Ooh.
stuart
									
Yeah. Give that man money, please. So. Dani’s passed out and of course she’s passed out at the party and she invited this fucking demon bear that everyone else has to deal with. [Dan laughs.] So they spirit Dani away. Rahne takes her along over to the—she takes Dani into the abandoned church. Illyana decides, “Hey, it’s time for me to use my powers. I’m magical.” So she pulls out her soul sword and starts flipping around. Jumping. Flipping. Cutting at the bear. Sam tries to help. He starts blasting. Berto eventually decides to use his powers and he burns his clothes off and then he briefly fights the bear before getting smushed. And it’s great! They all get to use their powers. They all kinda come together. And then Dani eventually wakes up and calms down the demon bear and pats its nose. The end of the movie. [Laughs.] [Dan laughs.]
dan
									
And I guess everything’s forgiven. [Laughs.]
elliott
									
Well what are they gonna—take her to Bear Court? Like I don’t understand.
crosstalk
									
Stuart: Well she even apologizes, right? She’s like, “I’m sorry I brought this demon bear.” Dan: No. It just—I know. It just seems weird.
stuart
									
And they’re like, “No. You freed us with this demon bear.” And she’s like, “I guess I did!” And then they find Dr. Reyes’s chunky heel covered in blood. So they’re like—
crosstalk
									
Stuart: “She’s totally dead. There’s no way.” Arnie: Full of blood! Not just covered! Full—like, pours blood out of it! Elliott: The idea that they’re like—
elliott
									
“Well we saw her swallowed whole by a bear. Is she dead? Here’s her shoe! That clinches it! She must be!” [Laughs.] “There’s no other way for her shoe to be removed from her foot other than death.” [Laughs.]
crosstalk
									
Elliott: “It’s a real red—it’s a real ruby slippers type situation!” Dan: It’s either— [Laughs.]
dan
									
It’s either her shoe or it’s the shoe of the evil stepsisters—the original version of Cinderella. I don’t know. All I know is there’s blood in a shoe.
elliott
									
In this chunky shoe. [With German accent] “Hi, I’m Werner Hershoe! Welcome down to Werner Herzog’s Hershoes! Where you can find the best in lady’s shoes! And if you stare into the shoe you’ll see the total emptiness of the cosmos. We live in a random universe with no god in charge, but I’m in charge of getting you the best shoes at Werner Hershoes!”
dan
									
[Laughs.] [With German accent] “Now do not confuse this with Werner Herzog’s Horseshoes, which is a separate venture of mine.”
crosstalk
									
Dan: “You want it for horses or luck?” Elliott: “That’s a—that’s a—"
elliott
									
“It’s a horseshoe range attached to a bar. It’s a kind of bar game, is horseshoes. You’re throwing those—and don’t—and please do not confuse it with Werner Herzog’s In Her Shoes, my shot-for-shot remake of the film In Her Shoes.” [Laughs.] [Dan laughs.]
stuart
									
Mm-hm. Arnie, do you have any fun accents you like to do? [Multiple people laugh.]
arnie
									
No, but I would just like to let the listener know that it’s extra enjoyable to get to actually watch these moments, because it’s—I enjoy watching Stuart kind of—you can tell he’s like, “I’m waiting this one out.” [Stuart laughs.]
elliott
									
Yeah. [With German accent] Anyway, I’m supposed to be telling you about Cancun. Here in Cancun we’re having the hottest ladies and the hunkiest guys here on spring break. Let’s go on to Miami Beach! Miami Beach is famous for its spring break parties, and I’m enjoying them all. Anyway, we’ve got eight more beaches to get to! I’m Werner Herzog.”
crosstalk
									
Stuart: Oh wow. So— Dan: Oh god. Okay.
stuart
									
Now our team—now they’re free. They kind of set off down the road and their only clue is that Reyes was working for the Essex Corporation—of course a reference to—is it Nathaniel Essex?
crosstalk
									
Stuart: Mr. Sinister? Yeah. Elliott: Nathaniel Essex, yes. Mr. Sinister.
stuart
									
So that was a tease. Apparently John Hamm was even cast to play Mr. Sinister. What a shame. Wow. What a great character.
dan
									
Okay. Well, that’s the end of The New Mutants. So we should do our Final Judgments, whether this is a good-bad movie, a bad-bad movie, or a movie we kinda liked. I—
arnie
									
Before—I’m sorry. Before we make the judgments, can I ask—is this the only superhero movie where at the end the superheroes are the only characters alive? [All laugh.] And in fact every other character of the movie is dead at the hands of those superheroes? [All laugh.]
stuart
									
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s a good question. [Dan laughs.]
elliott
									
That is a good question. It’s—
arnie
									
Every character you ever see in the past or present has been killed by the superheroes except, I guess, for Buffy the Vampire Slayer on TV. [Elliott laughs.]
crosstalk
									
Stuart and Dan: Yeah.
dan
									
Wow.
crosstalk
									
Stuart: That’s a good point. Elliott: Trying to remember. Let’s see—The Incredibles? No.
elliott
									
Incredibles 2? No.
stuart
									
Spider-man 2? No.
elliott
									
Superman 4? No.
dan
									
Uh… yeah. So this movie—when we were watching it earlier today, Audrey said a line that I had to write down, which is, “I feel like I’ve hated better movies.” Which is not to say that like—that is not saying, “Oh, this is below hatred.” It’s more that like… there are films that have inspired an emotional reaction? Like, a negative one? That are better than this? Like the fact that this is just kind of… there. Like, I don’t dislike this movie, but there’s not… like, it’s almost like everything is in perfect balance, good and bad, such as to make it nothing. [Elliott laughs.]
elliott
									
“Everything is in perfect balance, raves Dan McCoy, of The New Mutants.”
crosstalk
									
Dan: But I mean, we’ve— Stuart: Both bears are the same size! [Elliott laughs.]
dan
									
I mean like, if I was pressed— [Laughs.]
elliott
									
“There are two bears in this movie: great, and better!”
dan
									
If I was pressed to put this into one of our bullshit categories, I guess the closest one is kinda liked it ‘cause I like this kind of stuff? And nothing in it like… made me mad and it’s of that thing that we’ve invoked a lot of times where, like, “Oh, if you’re dozing on the couch this would be a great way to spend your time.” But what do you guys have to say?
elliott
									
No, I would also call this a movie I kind of like, just because it’s fine. Like, I didn’t—it’s not terrible even though it’s—we made fun of it a sure bunch. But it’s like not really scary for a horror movie; it’s not really exciting for a superhero movie; and again I’d be curious to have somebody just watch it with somebody who doesn’t know the New Mutants and it’s like, “Why is this happening? Who are these people?” But it’s not terrible. It’s just kinda like, “Alright.” Like in a world where there are 40 superhero movies a year, it seems, coming out? There’s room for a mediocre superhero movie like this.
dan
									
Yeah.
stuart
									
Yeah. I mean, it’s kinda tough. Like I obviously—like, I like The Breakfast Club. I like The Nightmare on Elm Street 3: Dream Warriors. [Elliott laughs.] But—and I feel like this movie obviously tries to reference those and it tries to reference various coming-of-age stuff and it… I dunno. Like I feel like it doesn’t do—I mean, as you said, it’s not really scary. And the attempt to like… do coming-of-age—like a coming-of-age story or coming into your powers has been done so many times and so much—
dan
									
Or coming into bears.
stuart
									
Yeah. Or coming into bears! But like… I mean— [Dan laughs.] —after seeing Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse—
crosstalk
									
Arnie: Wait, hold on. I’m so sorry. I gotta stop. Stuart: —where we see Miles—
arnie
									
Dan, it’s the other way around. It’s not coming into bears. [Through laughter] It’s the other—that’s gross!
dan
									
Good things come in bears!
elliott
									
No, no, it’s getting out of bears. You wanna get outta that bear. [Multiple people laugh.]
stuart
									
Yeah. You wanna get all the cum outta that bear.
dan
									
[Through laughter] It is “good things come in bears.” [Laughs.] Oh, okay. [Elliott laughs.]
stuart
									
But like—with something like Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse, where we see Miles Morales take his leap of faith—and it actually elicits—a movie that actually elicits an emotional response, it feels—to see the warmed-over, warmed-over, warmed-over version of that is pretty lame. So I dunno. I feel like I’d say bad-bad, just ‘cause… like, it just washed over me and is going to be forgotten.
arnie
									
I mean, I sorta—I did kind of like it. It was weird, though. I think I would almost—like, is there’s a category that’s bad-good? Where it’s like not bad enough to be entertaining—like, it’s almost worse than being good-bad? Because there just wasn’t enough of the sort of joy of how bad it was? And mostly what pulled me through was being like… hypothetically I like a lot of this stuff. But it’s just— [Dan laughs.] —the movie is almost as empty as that weird hospital. It’s just like there’s not enough in it.
stuart
									
Yeah. Not enough bears. The—yeah. Both bears are too small! [Someone laughs.] Yeah. I mean, I think—I actually—I feel like, Arnie, you have done this podcast a service. Because we have been dancing around this idea for fucking years. The idea of a movie that is well-made enough but is clearly bad. Like, a bad-good movie. [Arnie laughs.] Like, it’s not actually interesting enough to be a good-bad. I don’t know.
elliott
									
Yeah. No, no. It’s—the problem is not the production or the logic or anything like that. It’s just a certain soullessness that comes with being sent back by the studio to remake the movie several times.
dan
									
Yeah. And I like the way Arnie put it, because while watching it I did invoke [through laughter] a philosophy that we’ve espoused on the show a few times, which is, “If this movie was a better movie, this movie would be good.” [Laughs.] [All laugh.] Like…
stuart
									
Yeah. It’s a good point.
arnie
									
So are you saying that I’m kind of like the Dani of this podcast? The stranger who comes in and…
crosstalk
									
Stuart: Mm-hm. Dan: Mmm. Sets us free. Arnie: Sort of brings something new out of everybody?
stuart
									
Torments us with our past traumas?
arnie
									
Mm-hm!
elliott
									
Yeah. And eats a doctor? Sure.
music
									
Light, up-tempo, electric guitar with synth instruments.
promo
									
Music: Cheerful, “Linus and Lucy”-style piano music plays in background. Jackie Kashian: I’m going first! It’s me, Jackie Kashian! Laurie Kilmartin: Man! She’s always this bossy! [All laugh.] Laurie: Hi. I’m Laurie Kilmartin. We’re a bunch of standup comics and we’ve been doing comedy like sixty years total. [Jackie laughs.] Jackie: Both of us. But we look amazing. And— [Kyle laughs.] Jackie: It’s all working out. We drop every Monday on MaxFun and it’s called The Jackie and Laurie Show. And you could listen to it and learn about comedy and learn about anger management and all the things. Laurie: And Jackie is married but childless and I’m unmarried but child-full. So together— [Jackie laughs.] Laurie: —we make— Jackie and Laurie: —one complete woman. Kyle: [Through laughter] Is that just how it’s gonna end? [Laughs.] Jackie: Yeah! Yeah! And we try to make Kyle laugh just like that and say “Oh my god” every episode. Kyle: It’s a good job. Jackie and Laurie Show. Mondays, only on Maximum Fun. [Music ends.]
promo
									
James Arthur: Hi, I’m James, host of Minority Korner, which is a—? Speaker 1: Podcast that’s all about intersectionality. It’s hosted by James with a guest host every week. Speaker 2: Discussing all sorts of wonderful issues; nerdy and political. Speaker 3: Pop culture— Speaker 1: Black, queer feminism. Speaker 4: Race. Sexuality. Speaker 5: News. Speaker 6: You’re gonna learn your history. There’s self-empowerment. And it’s told by what feels like your best friend. Speaker 2: Why should someone listen to Minority Korner? Speaker 7: Why not? Speaker 8: Oh my god. Free stuff. James: There’s not free stuff. Speaker 1: The listeners of Minority Korner will enjoy some necessary lols, but mainly a look at what’s happening in our world through a colorful lens. Speaker 2: People will get the perspective of… marginalized communities. Speaker 1: I feel heard. I feel seen. Speaker 9: Like you said, you need to understand how to be more proactive in your community? And this is a great way to get started. James: Join us every Friday on MaxFun, or wherever you get your podcast. Multiple speakers: Minority Korner! Because together, we’re the majority.
dan
									
Hey, you know what? The Flop House is sponsored in part by Express VPN. When you use the bathroom, you always close the door behind you. Right? You don’t want—
stuart
									
Mmmm. [Elliott laughs.]
dan
									
—a random passer-by looking in on you. So why would you let people look in on you when you go online? Using the internet without Express VPN is like going to the bathroom and not closing the door. Now this is some interesting ad copy. Stuart, do you—do you always close the bathroom door? You seemed to make a noise.
stuart
									
If I close the bathroom door my cats will yell at me? So I have to leave it open so they can come in and brush up against my—
dan
									
Your meaty thighs.
stuart
									
My legs. Yeah. [Laughs.] My meaty thighs, yeah.
elliott
									
I have the same issue with my children, but I keep that door closed and I just let them scratch at it and go, “Daddy! Daddy! But we wanna see you peeing!” [Dan laughs.] And I say, “No thank you!”
stuart
									
Uh-huh. [Laughs.] They hurl themselves against it like so many assaulters on Precinct 13.
crosstalk
									
Dan and Elliott: Yeah. Dan: But I think we can all agree— Elliott: Exactly.
dan
									
—that we would prefer privacy. So why not have privacy with your Express VPN? Did you know that your internet service provider—like Comcast or Verizon—knows every single website you visit and can sell this info to ad companies? Express VPN creates a secure, encrypted tunnel between your device and the internet so that your online activity can’t be seen by anyone. It works on phones, laptops, even routers. So everyone who shares your WiFi can still be protected, even if they don’t have Express VPN. So if you believe your online activity is your business, secure yourself by visiting ExpressVPN.com/flop today. Use our link E-X-P-R-E-S-S-V-P-N.com/flop and you can get an extra three months free. That’s ExpressVPN.com/flop.
elliott
									
Sounds great! I think that people should do that. I have an ad I’d like to talk about. Guys? We’re also sponsored in part by Storyblocks. Now, more than ever, storytellers and content creators—same thing, in my opinion—are challenged with producing more video content at a higher quality than ever before! That’s true! The standards are higher and you gotta keep up with ‘em. Keep up with that growing demand for modern video content without sacrificing your vision with stock media from Storyblocks. What’s Storyblocks? Well it’s dedicated to being the world’s best royalty-free stock media subscription service. Their library is always growing. It has over one million high-quality stock assets including 4k/HD footage, after-effects, and premier pro templates, music, images, sound effects, and more. They’ve got affordable subscription plans and tools, and with their unlimited, all-access plan—that’s the Storyblocks unlimited, all-access plan—you get unlimited downloads of everything in their library. And even if your subscription ends? You get to keep the stuff you downloaded. It doesn’t disappear. Like out of magic, as if Marty McFly’s parents didn’t get together. It doesn’t disappear and fade away. Now I love stock footage. I’m very excited about being able to put things together for Storyblocks stock media. Dan, you actually made something for our upcoming live show using Storyblocks. And how was the experience? Was it super smooth? ‘Cause it seemed to take you no time.
dan
									
It was actually very smooth. You can search through their library. You can find what you want. They have many different variations on basically anything you can think of, and you just download it straight. Use it. It looks beautiful.
elliott
									
That’s great. You’ll see the results in our live show! More about that live show in a little bit. But first—why not go to Storyblocks? Explore their library and subscribe today at Storyblocks.com/flop. That’s Storyblocks.com/flop.
stuart
									
And I got some [announcer voice] J-J-J-J-J-J-Jumbotronnnns! That’s right! [Dan laughs.] Are you at home right now? Unable to deal with the existential dread of daily life? Well—then you’re probably on Netflix. But there’s just so much there and so little time. Well? On every day in 2021, Netflix&ChillYear.com will go through every Netflix original movie and talk about what’s great about it, what’s weird about it, and what it’s all about. So—go to NetflixAndChillYear.com or—if you want a daily email full of Netflix goodness—go to NetflixAndChillYear.substack.com. That’s right! Visit NetflixAndChillYear.com or subscribe at NetflixAndChillYear.substack.com. I got a second Jumbotron! While my mouth gets used to talking again.
crosstalk
									
Dan: Mm-hm. [Laughs.] [Elliott laughs.] Stuart: There we go!
dan
									
Did you have to do like a hard reboot, or? What was that?
stuart
									
Yep! Ivan! Ivan! Ivan! Vanya! Bubbeleh! You can’t just Venmo me 69.69 on Christmas Day as a present. That’s not the Christmas spirit! Now you have to listen to the Peaches tell you how much I love you and have Stuart apologize on my behalf for what a sloppy gamemaster I can be. Sorry, duuuuuuuuuude! Ra-row!
dan
									
Yeah. Yeah! [Elliott laughs.]
stuart
									
Yep. That’s it. That’s the message.
elliott
									
Yeah. Dan cosigns on that message. [Dan laughs.] Okay, guys. I mentioned a live show earlier. Let’s talk briefly about that. And I mentioned it even earlier before that. That’s right—Saturday, February 6th at 9PM Eastern, 6PM Pacific, we are gonna be doing our first virtual Zoom live show of the year. You’ll be able to watch it—what—through our YouTube page or something? I don’t remember. Anyway. [Dan and Stuart laugh.]
crosstalk
									
Dan: No. You’ll get a link. Stuart: No. Absolutely not.
elliott
									
All the information will be with you when you get the tickets. So we’re gonna be talking about the movie Teen Wolf. That’s right—everyone’s favorite movie about a basketball-playing werewolf. Tell me one you like more. Tell me a basketball-playing werewolf movie that you like more! I defy it!
crosstalk
									
Stuart: Doesn’t exist. Elliott: We’re gonna have—
elliott
									
—an in-depth—but not too long—discussion of the movie. Where each gonna give original presentations. Will mine have more monster content? You better believe it! There’s gonna be an audience Q&A section and much more. I already told you Dan’s been messing around with Storyblocks footage making something for the show! The price? Only $10! And don’t worry. If you’re not available Saturday, February 6th at 9PM Eastern/6PM Pacific because you have some other thing going on in your life other than wanting to hear three old friends of yours talking about a teenage wolf, that’s okay. The show is gonna be up for you archived for one week after the event. That’s right! Until Saturday, February 16th, you’ll be able to just watch that video. Just light it up and let it roll and then watch it up and watch it down. Just go to TheFlopHouse.simpletix.com. Don’t worry about the “www.” Just go to TheFlopHouse.simpletix.com. Because Dan, was there an issue of some kind with internet URL language that you want to tell people about?
dan
									
Uh, yeah, yeah. I’m sorry. The last episode I mentioned that—I said that if you don’t put the “http” part in… it would go to it. Whereas—or if you did put it in, it wouldn’t go to it. That is incorrect. Someone had tweeted at me that there was a problem. I misremembered. The problem is, do not put the “www” in. That will take you to a dead link. If you do not put it in, it works. I have no idea why the modern internet browser cannot figure that out for you? But in the absence of a smarter one, don’t put the “www” in.
elliott
									
Yeah. Don’t confuse your dumb, stupid internet browser. Just go to TheFlopHouse.simpletix.com and get ready to laugh as we three guys—Dan McCoy, Stuart Wellington, and—of course—America’s rascal, Elliott Kalan, talk about the movie that catapulted Michael J. Fox to lycanthropic stardom. That’s Teen Wolf— [Dan laughs.] —featuring the Flop House guys, Saturday February 6th at 9PM Eastern/6PM Pacific. Other time zones, please do the math. I do not know what time it will be in the other time zones. That’s TheFlopHouse.simpletix.com! Only $10! Just go ahead and do it! Just come and join us!
dan
									
Well now let’s move on to Letters from Listeners. Listeners have things to say, too. We’ve been hogging the microphone. What’s going on in their minds? [Stuart laughs.] Elliott? [Laughs.] You don’t have—you don’t have the letters.
crosstalk
									
Stuart: Yeah, he doesn’t have the letters! Dan: Don’t know why—don’t know why I tried to throw it to you. Elliott: Yeah. What—I mean, okay.
elliott
									
If you ask for it then [singing] Ba-da-da-dadadada. Bad-da-dada­dadada! Da-da-da-da! Da-da-da-da! Da-da-da-da! It’s your turn! Listeners! It’s your turn to make your voice heard! You’ve been listening to us yakking around, talking about mutants and all that stuff and now it’s your turn! Tell us what’s on your mind, listeners! Tell us to be more kind, listeners! Or tell us to have Richard Kind on this show, listeners! That’s “kind”! I rhymed it with “kind!” That’s right, listeners! Write in and tell us what you’ve got to sayyyy! That’s right, listeners! Write in and tell us whatever you want! Whatever you may! Listeners, it’s your turn! Listeners, don’t be burned! ‘Cause listeners this is your chance to be the starrrrrs! Of The Flop Hououououse! Listeners! Hey, listeners! Don’t let this chance pass you up! [Dan laughs.] Hey look—
crosstalk
									
Stuart: Oh wow, he’s still going. Elliott: —this is your time to get the best! Hey, listeners, this is the time— Dan: Did Jim Steinman write this? [Elliott laughs.]
elliott
									
To be the ones with the spotlight on you! Ah! It burns your eyes a little! That’s okay! ‘Cause now you’re the star of the dayyyy! Listeners, write on in! And tell us what you wanna say—to us! At The Flop House. [Regular voice] Featuring Arnie Niekamp. But it’s Arnie Knee-camp, really. [All laugh.]
crosstalk
									
Dan: Thank you. Arnie: Alright. No, you got the name right.
crosstalk
									
Arnie: You gotta start the song over. Sorry, everybody! We gotta get a clean take of that! Dan: Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no! No, no, no! No! No! No! Elliott: Okay. [Singing] Ba-da-da-dadadada! Da-da-da-dadada!
dan
									
No! This was—this first letter is from Elizabeth, last name withheld. Who writes—
elliott
									
Elizabeth Montgomery.
dan
									
“Hi, Peaches. Your mini about prequels reminded me of an odd prequel-watching experience I had. My old job used to take the whole office to the movies every summer. We would go to an 8AM screening. They bought us popcorn, soda, and candy for breakfast, and we went to work afterwards. This was called—without irony—a morale event.” I dunno.
elliott
									
Dan: That sounds good to me. I guess the 8AM… Elliott: That sounds great. Yeah. What do they work for—a kid-based company?
elliott
									
A company run by kids? ‘Cause that sounds amazing!
dan
									
Yeah. But anyway. Elizabeth goes on to say, “The first summer I worked there we went to see X-Men: First Class. I’d never seen any X-Men movies and knew nothing about them, but figured since it was a prequel I wouldn’t be confused. I enjoyed the movie thoroughly and was probably alone in the audience in finding Magneto’s heel-turn to be a shocking betrayal.” [Multiple people laugh.] “To this day I have never watched another X-Men movie because all I want from the franchise is for Charles and Magneto to be best friends. Have any of you ever had a similar experience being blindsided by a plot twist that you really should have seen coming? Thanks for all the laughs! Elizabeth, last name withheld.” Y’know, this is getting— [Laughs.] This is an even dumber one than usual, but I remember—
stuart
									
What, the letter? I thought it was perfectly great!
dan
									
No, no, no! [Laughs.] No! What I’m about—
elliott
									
How rude, Daniel!
crosstalk
									
Elliott: [Singing] Hey, there listener! Elizabeth, don’t take it personal! Dan’s just working through some things! And I am gonna sing about how much we love that you wrote in to us! Dan: [Through laughter] No! No! God! Oh. No. No. Stuart: And also—and also—
dan
									
I—no. I was gonna— [Laughs.] I was saying what I was about to say was gonna be dumb.
elliott
									
Yeah! You just insulted a listener! That was dumb!
stuart
									
Super dumb.
dan
									
Yeah. [Laughs.] Okay. Well what it was was—
stuart
									
Arnie looks concerned over there. He’s like, “I can’t believe—what a shitshow operation they’re running over here!”
elliott
									
You’re getting the classic Niekamp glare.
dan
									
Okay. So I remember—I watched Tim Burton’s movie of Sweeney Todd. Which I had—like—so I watched it. It was the first version of Sweeney Todd that I ever saw. Much later I became like a bit of a… a fanatic. Watching three different recorded versions and one live. But when I revisited the Burton movie, like, years later? Before I had seen it again? I found myself involved in it and I totally forgot—until like right before [through laughter] he kills the beggarwoman—that it’s his wife? And I have no idea— [Elliott laughs.] —how like the most obvious twist! But also like I’d [through laughter] seen the movie before. And somehow my brain had like erased all that so I could enjoy it yet again and be like, “No, no, Sweeney! No! No!” [Elliott laughs.] I guess—spoiler alert.
elliott
									
Yeah. Spoiler alert for— [Laughs.]
stuart
									
I mean, I feel like “spoiler alert” for a lot of what we’ll talk about here, right? If we’re talking about twists?
elliott
									
I mean, I couldn’t think of any particular twists that have blindsided me although I’m sure there are. But I often am the guy who—when it looks like the heroes are about to win—I’m like, “Great! Movie’s almost over!” And then it turns out that this is the part where the heroes almost win and then lose and then you have the real climax a little bit later? And every time I’m like, “Oh. There’s more movie. Oh, okay. Never mind, then.”
arnie
									
You hate third acts, it sounds like!
elliott
									
It’s more I want shorter second acts. I don’t like the second-act fake-out. I’d rather just be like, “Guys, give me a story. Let’s do it.” Unless it’s like a really good fake-out and then a really good third act. But there’s a lot of movies where there’s a kind of satisfying fight scene and I’m like, “Great! Thank you, movie!” And then it goes on to a big, like, explosions and glowy things ending. And I don’t need that.
dan
									
Yeah. It’s more like there’s a fourth act. And the thing is, like… I agree with you overall? I want these movies to be more streamlined? But then sometimes I will see one that I like and will be a little disappointed that that fourth act isn’t there just because my brain has been trained by other, worse movies to expect it.
elliott
									
Yeah. I guess—there’s a movie I recommended a few episodes ago and Dan recommended hundreds of episodes ago called The Silent Partner. And there’s a character in that who’s literally like, “Oh, the bad guy’s gonna kill us. Oh, he won’t stand for this. He’s gonna kill us.” And then that character gets murdered. And I was like, “Uh! This is—I did—I was not sure that was gonna happen and it’s so much more gruesome than I expected it to be!” So. [Dan laughs.] So that was me kinda getting surprised by a twist. What about you guys? You like twists, right?
stuart
									
I’m usually surprised by ‘em. I feel like—I think it’s because I’m a noncreative. But I’m not like— [Dan laughs.] When I’m enjoying a movie or something I’m not like… my brain doesn’t click over into like how this was made or like what I would do in this situation? But I will say… I was quite surprised by the twist. I was watching—I was in the theater watching a midnight screening on opening night of Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers. And man, I’m like halfway through my popcorn and I’m like, “Man, this—the movie feels like it’s wrapping up. But we still got Shelob to go, right?” [Elliott laughs.] And then those credits rolled and I’m like, “What?! Where’s Shelob?” And then I like stand up and I start looking around like—“We’ve been duped!” So that was a twist that totally got me. [Multiple people laugh.]
arnie
									
You know when I saw The Fellowship of the Ring in the theater with my family, walking out my mother was like, “I can’t believe that whole movie and they never even got where they were going.” [All laugh.] I was like, “This is the first part of the book! There are sequels!”
crosstalk
									
Arnie: And she says, “They’re just trying to get your money.” Elliott: That was—that happened— [Stuart laughs.]
elliott
									
That happened to me with the fifth Harry Potter movie? I had only seen the first Harry Potter movie and then I went to see the fifth one and I was like, “Oh, boy! This is gonna be a big showdown with Voldemort!” And then they just kind of leave? And I was like, “Oh, yeah. There’s more stuff that happens after this.” [Dan laughs.] I fell for it.
arnie
									
After seeing The Princess Bride, my mother—who is delightful—said, “That couldn’t happen.” [All laugh. Someone applauds.]
elliott
									
“There’s no way Fred Savage would sit through that story!” [Dan laughs.]
arnie
									
My movie that really surprised me—it’s a pretty—obviously, it surprised a lot of people—I knew there was a twist and I actually saw it when it first opened. The Sixth Sense. But for some reason—it was the weirdest reason—that I was distracted. Because I just saw in the opening credits that Donny Wahlberg was in the movie— [Elliott laughs.] —and somehow did not put together that the intruder or whatever at the beginning of the movie was Donny Wahlberg? Because I guess it didn’t look like him? And so the whole movie I’m using that kind of like movie logic—which is the thing that usually gives away what the ending is gonna be? And I’m so distracted being like, “Huh, it’s getting pretty late, but shit’s gonna get crazy when Donny Wahlberg shows up!” [All laugh.]
stuart
									
[Through laughter] Yeah! Yeah. Donny Wahlberg’s the Shelob of that movie!
arnie
									
[Through laughter] Exactly.
dan
									
“Shit’s gonna get crazy when Donny Wahlberg [through laughter] shows up.”
elliott
									
I mean, that’s a good rule for life, too. For movies and for life.
crosstalk
									
Arnie: It’s true. Stuart: Yeah.
dan
									
Uh, okay. Well the second and final letter is from Mitchell, last name withheld. Michell writes: “You guys often play up how painful it is to watch these movies. And I get that you’re doing a bit. But do you ever sincerely regret making this a bad movie podcast? If you’d just made a good movie podcast instead, you coulda spent all this time watching good movies! Sincerely, Mitchell, last name withheld.”
elliott
									
Oh, sincerely, the voice in my head. All the time. [Dan laughs.]
crosstalk
									
Stuart: Yeah. Uh, yeah. Send that fucking message back in time, dude! Dan: Aw, come on.
stuart
									
Tenet that shit back to me! [All laugh.]
dan
									
I was thinking about it. I—obviously it’s more pleasurable to watch a good movie. But in terms of like… the conversations we’ve had afterwards, like… I wouldn’t change anything, personally. I watch a lot of bad movies on my own recognizance, too, so maybe I’m just a glutton for it. But—
stuart
									
This conversation is very similar to the one we’re gonna have as we’re lying in our death beds, stuck in the same room, three old turds. [All laugh.]
crosstalk
									
Elliott: Well because we all die as old men recording this show. Dan: All in the same bed. [Inaudible] style. Yeah.
elliott
									
Dan will often send us texts and be like, “Hey, I had this Italian exploitation film on while I was working. And check out this crazy scene!” And I’m like, “Dan, you’re on your own time! Just like watch something that’s gonna be good!” [Laughs.]
dan
									
Yeah.
elliott
									
I think there is a—I enjoy watching good movies more? But I kind of enjoy talking about bad movies more.
dan
									
Yeah. Welp.
stuart
									
Arnie, do you have any podcast-based regrets? [Elliott laughs.]
arnie
									
Y’know, Mitchell, thanks for asking. I would say—am I someone that also occasionally regrets the premise of my podcast? Sure!
crosstalk
									
Dan and Stuart: Yeah.
crosstalk
									
Dan: I mean, it—eventually everything becomes an albatross! Stuart: Do you ever with that you were playing a crazy character? Do you uh—
dan
									
Except for albatrosses. They decay.
stuart
									
Yeah. That’s true.
elliott
									
Yeah. Eventually albatrosses become dirt, I guess. But. [Dan laughs.] But everything else turns into an albatross when it decays. [Laughs.] [Dan laughs.]
stuart
									
Arnie, in your show, Hello from the Magic Tavern—what, do you have more albatross decomposition bits?
crosstalk
									
Elliott: I was gonna say that inside every bear there are two albatrosses. Yeah. Dan: No, no, Stuart. No, Stuart. You can continue being the—
dan
									
—stealth only pro on the program. [Laughs.]
stuart
									
Arnie, so on your show, Hello from the Magic Tavern, you are the only one who plays basically yourself. Do you ever regret that and wish that you were playing like a wackier character? Like a… I dunno. Like a Latka or something? [Elliott laughs.]
elliott
									
You mean Latka, the character from Taxi. Not the delicious food.
stuart
									
They’re similar though, right?
elliott
									
Yeah. I mean, ‘cause Andy Kaufman was also made out of fried potatoes. Yeah.
arnie
									
Y’know, when it started I sort of regretted playing the straight man on the podcast because it seemed like everyone else got to have so much more fun? As the show goes on, though, the fact that like… we try to stay true—like, everything people say is canon and we’ve sort of tried to remember it? Y’know, my character has actually become kind of a weirdo anyway? All the weird things that people have just said about me? The thing I do, though, sometimes regret just playing myself? Like a fictional version of myself? I’m just sort of like, “Someday this is gonna… I’m gonna really look back and regret this.” But eh. What are you gonna do.
stuart
									
Yeah. I mean, also your costume for live shows is pretty easy. Right?
arnie
									
That is true. When Matt Young—who plays a wizard—is just sweating through a giant beard and thing and I have to literally I do look. I do have a costume. I do have one particular polo shirt that I have to change into before every show. [Elliott laughs.] But yeah. I’m glad that I don’t’ have to put on anything more than that.
stuart
									
I remember the one time I did—I was a guest on your live show and I decided to wear an inflatable Beholder costume. And I didn’t realize that when I turned the fan off—because I thought the fan would get in the way of the mic—that the suit would deflate and that under the hot lights I would just be like a sweaty ball sack of a man. [Elliott laughs.] Yeah. That was a moment when I’m like, “I’m kinda glad The Flop House doesn’t require me to wear costumes on stage.”
crosstalk
									
Arnie: That was so delightful. Elliott: Mm. Not yet!
arnie
									
You were so great in that live show and I could not believe it when you showed up with that costume. ‘Cause it was—it was so good. Also I know your parents were in the audience for that show, correct?
stuart
									
That was the first time my parents had come to any of my performances? And there was a point where somebody made me roll around onstage in this costume on a fox face? On a taxidermied fox face? It was pretty great. And then afterwards we ran out to meet the people who’d come out to see the show and I’m like, “Oh, I can’t wait to see my parents!” My parents had already left. [Multiple people laugh.] They were in the car. [Laughs.] They could not face me.
dan
									
Oh dear. Well. Let us move on.
elliott
									
We have another segment, Dan.
dan
									
There’s one final segment and that’s one where we recommend films that we’ve seen recently that we’ve enjoyed. And I would like to recommend a little movie called Psycho Goreman. Which— [Laughs.] Stars an up-and-coming young actor— [Multiple people laugh.] —named Stuart Wellington as Tubeman. [Elliott laughs.] Stuart’s freaking out. [Laughs.] And this is a very funny, gory movie, as you might expect from the title. It’s basically like, “What if these kids have a pet sort of cosmic evil sadist?” He’s sort of like a space Pinhead almost. I don’t know how you would describe him. He’s just like, y’know, like an evil conqueror type. But with a tragic backstory. And they can control him. They’ve got—and they are just sort of… y’know, brat kids. [Laughs.] Everyone in the movie is sort of like… self-centered. [Laughs.] And—
stuart
									
Yeah. They’re little sociopath kids.
dan
									
Yeah. So it’s just fun. Y’know, someone who shouldn’t have all that power having control over this evil creature that has all this power. And it’s a very wacky situation but it’s also weirdly played pretty straight, even though it’s so silly? It strikes like a pretty good tone. I mean you can see like a Troma version of this, right? That would go way, like, campy and over the top. And this somehow has the most bullshit weird comic premise, but takes it somewhat seriously. So I really enjoyed it. And watch out for that Tubeman!
stuart
									
He’s going places!
crosstalk
									
Dan and Elliott: Mm-hm.
elliott
									
Straight into a bear. [Dan laughs. Long pause.]
dan
									
Uh, anyone else?
elliott
									
Stuart, would you like to go?
stuart
									
Yeah. I’ll recommend something that’s on Amazon Prime. Well before that, obviously, go watch Psycho Goreman. It’s great and it does have me doing the voice of Tubeman. I’d also like to recommend a movie called One Night in Miami…. it is a movie directed by—it’s the directorial debut, I think, of Regina King. And it is a fictional story of the very real friendship between Mohammad Ali, Malcom X, Sam Cooke, and Jim Brown. And it depicts one night of them basically just hanging out in Miami after a big fight. And it is adapted from a stage play and it kinda feels like that, but it does a really amazing job of presenting four larger-than-life men in a moment of fairly—in some ways—low-stakes moment in their lives. Of them just spending time with each other. And it presents them as, like, I don’t know. Like fully-formed, three-dimensional men with vulnerabilities. But also strong passions. And I thought it was really great and the performances are incredible and specifically, Leslie Odom, Jr. rerecord—who plays Sam Cooke in the movie—he recorded a bunch of Sam Cooke songs with him doing the vocals and the play a bunch of them in the movie and it’s—they’re incredible! So check it out.
elliott
									
I would like to recommend a documentary movie. That’s a movie about a real thing that actually happened, featuring real footage of the thing as it happened! And this is a movie from 1968 that was released in Blu-ray last year and it’s called The Queen. And it’s a documentary about the 1967 Miss All-America Camp Beauty Contest and follows the MC of the competition and also a number of the different competitors as they prepare for it. And then acts in some ways just as like a… like, you are there in this moment experiencing the 1967 Miss All-America Camp Beauty Contest, a early drag contest at a time when there was next-to-no representation of that kind of lifestyle or interest in mainstream media? And it was really interesting to me to see people… living in that time and without a lot of what we take for granted nowadays. In terms of just even awareness of different types of people. And there’s a bunch of interesting characters in it. I mean, they’re real people. You know what I mean by characters. And it’s just something that… helped me to… I don’t know. Understand certain aspects of the draw of drag that I didn’t fully understand before. And so I thought it was really good. It's called The Queen and it’s on Blu-ray!
arnie
									
I, unfortunately, haven’t had a—I’ve been a little too busy to watch that many movies. But I will recommend the first fifteen minutes of The January Man. Don’t watch any more than the first fifteen minutes— [Elliott laughs.] —because it’s not—it won’t get any better. But the first fifteen minutes are pretty entertaining and crazy and Rod Steiger and Danny Aiello have a scene where they really both go—really go at it. And at some point you have to remind yourself, “This is a comedy. But these guys are just screaming at each other.” [Elliott laughs.]
dan
									
Did we talk about the John Patrick Shanley wrote The January Man when we did our Wild Mountain Thyme episode?
crosstalk
									
Elliott: I don’t think it came up when we did Wild Mountain Thyme. No. Stuart: I don’t think we touched on it. Dan: That’s very strange. [Laughs.]
dan
									
Okay! Well the first fifteen minutes. That’s—y’know, that’s a great recommendation for our listeners who maybe have a more packed schedule— [Stuart laughs.] —than the other ones, y’know? Just fit it in.
elliott
									
And again, you’re saying not to watch it in fifteen-minute bites, but just to watch the first fifteen minutes and then turn it right off.
arnie
									
Exactly. Oh yes.
elliott
									
Okay.
stuart
									
Yup. Put the tape back in the box. Drive immediately to your local Blockbuster and slip it in the return slot.
crosstalk
									
Arnie: I suppose—take a moment to look at the poster of The January Man. Elliott: You’re gonna—you want— [Laughs.]
arnie
									
Which is the whole reason I ever even bothered to watch it because the poster was somehow burned in my mind from childhood. [Elliott laughs.] And it was January and I was like, “I guess I’ll watch this movie finally?”
crosstalk
									
Elliott: But it is January Man Month. Stuart: That’s true. Can you describe that poster for me, Arnie?
stuart
									
It’s Kevin Kline, right?
arnie
									
Kevin Kline. He’s got kind of floppy hair. He’s standing in a doorway holding—he’s got kinda like a long—like a longer trench coat. He’s holding a—
dan
									
Like an overcoat, yeah.
arnie
									
He’s holding up a badge. I believe…
crosstalk
									
Dan: Mary Stuart Masterson. Arnie: Mary Stuart Mast—yeah.
arnie
									
She’s standing behind him.
crosstalk
									
Dan: Or, wait! Mary Elizabeth— Elliott: No, Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio.
dan
									
Yeah. Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio. I—god. The three-named Marys of the ‘80s. No. But yes. You’re right. Mastrantonio. Sorry.
arnie
									
She’s kinda just peeking around—it’s like he’s basically like talking to someone in the doorway. [Elliott laughs.] It’s not even that—there’s not even that much—
crosstalk
									
Arnie: It just works! Stuart: And [inaudible]. Elliott: You should—you should—
stuart
									
It asks more questions than it answers, really.
elliott
									
I mean, you should mention—did you mention that the door has been forced down? The door is no longer connected to the doorway. I’m looking at it now. And is lying on the floor at Kevin Kline’s feet almost as if—through the sheer force of the zaniness of the film—he has knocked the door down.
arnie
									
It’s also worth mentioning that nothing even vaguely resembling this happens at any point in the movie. [Elliott laughs.]
crosstalk
									
Dan: Can I ask something about the—can— Stuart: It’s not like a French door-slamming comedy, right?
dan
									
I would like to ask—yeah. About the tone of The January Man? Because like, I—is it comedic? ‘Cause I remember as a kid… I was kinda interested in seeing it ‘cause I liked Kevin Kline. Y’know. And this was around the time maybe that I would’ve been like, “Oh, he’s so funny in A Fish Called Wanda and a few other things.” And it looked wacky. But then I think I tried to watch it and it was a pretty straight… cop film? Like, what is the tone?
arnie
									
That’s the problem! I mean, I think… from what I can tell, the main reason it probably flopped at the time—besides just being bad—was that the tone was so weird? I think—I mean, it being… Shanley, like, he was trying something just like Joe Versus the Volcano, also is tonally a little strange? But it is—it’s like—it’s trying—
stuart
									
And it hit theaters in March, too— [Multiple people laugh.] —and people were like, ‘Why would I watch January Man in March?”
arnie
									
Exactly!
elliott
									
Yeah. I mean, reading the first line of Roger Ebert’s contemporary review, “The January Man is worth study as a film that fails to find its tone.” So I think that’s the issue.
arnie
									
It’s so—I mean the parts that are serious—this is a movie about a serial killer that’s killing women, and… but it’s also like a comedy and every time you see Danny Aiello and Rod Steiger being like, “Did you see that dead woman and [inaudible] tell her parents!” And then it’s like—and then it’s like, “Let’s go look at a rumpled detective trying to figure this out. And sort of fall in love with a woman that’s too young for him.”
dan
									
Mm. Mm-kay.
elliott
									
It’s available on Prime! If you have Amazon Prime, you can watch it for free.
crosstalk
									
Dan: Yeah. The first fifteen minutes. Stuart: Yeah. If you’ve already watched Virtuosity and Johnny Mnemonic.
dan
									
Which—I watched both of those this last year! [Multiple people laugh.] Along with Lawnmower Man. I went on a real kick of like, dumb… [Laughs.] Dumb… ‘90s…
stuart
									
You were really scared of the internet for a little bit.
dan
									
Yeah. [Elliott laughs.] Okay. Well anyway. [Laughs.] Arnie, thank you so much for being here. Is there anything you wanna plug here at the end?
arnie
									
Uh, sure! Check out my podcast, Hello from the Magic Tavern. A totally-improvised chat show in a fantasy world. And—
stuart
									
It’s great. It’s great.
arnie
									
Oh, thank you! And if you’re looking for games to play with your friends, either in person someday or via Zoom or something like that, the Jackbox Party Packs! I think three is a really good collection? They’re all good. Three is a good collection and the most recent one, seven, I think is one of the better ones we’ve done.
dan
									
Nice. They’re very fun. I—yeah. I have come to like games more over the years knowing Stuart and our mutual friend John, but my favorite type of game still remains the sort of social party game and these are some of the most fun—funniest ones you could do, I think.
stuart
									
Uh-huh. Yeah. Your favorite one’s called “Leisure Suit Larry,” right?
dan
									
[Through laughter] Yup. “In the Land of the Lounge Lizards.”
elliott
									
Guys? Guys? I know this is kind of off topic, but I will say that Amazon Prime does inform me that people who watch January Man also watched Wagons East, starring John Candy and Richard Lewis, so. [Dan laughs.] If you liked Wagons East, maybe you’ll like January Man!
arnie
									
That sounds about right.
dan
									
Well on that note, thanks to our network, Maximum Fun. Go to MaximumFun.org for a lot of other great shows. Tweet about our show. Review it. Let people know all the stuff that we always ask for. Thank you for doing it all lo these many years for us. Helping us grow an audience. But until next time, I’ve been Dan McCoy.
stuart
									
I’m Stuart Wellington!
elliott
									
I’m Elliott Kalan!
arnie
									
And I’m Arnie Niekamp, reminding you that teenage rattlesnakes are the most dangerous kind. [Stuart laughs.]
stuart
									
Oh no! [Elliott laughs.]
music
									
Light, up-tempo, electric guitar with synth instruments.
stuart
									
Oh, Elliott, please—can you just do a whole bunch of bullshit scatting before—so I can’t introduce him?
crosstalk
									
Stuart: And then finally— [Laughs.] Elliott: Already ahead—way ahead of you. Way ahead of you. [Music ends.]
elliott
									
A cheerful ukulele chord.
elliott
									
MaximumFun.org.
elliott
									
Comedy and culture.
elliott
									
Artist owned—
elliott
									
—Audience supported.
About the show

The Flop House is a bimonthly audio podcast devoted to the worst in recent film. Your hosts (Elliott Kalan, Dan McCoy, and Stuart Wellington) watch a questionable film just before each episode, and then engage in an unscripted, slightly inebriated discussion, focusing on the movie’s shortcomings and occasional delights.
Follow @flophousepod on Twitter and @theflophousepodcast on Instagram. Email them at theflophousepodcast@gmail.com.