Transcript
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Gentle, trilling music with a steady drumbeat plays under the dialogue.
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Speaker: Bullseye with Jesse Thorn is a production of MaximumFun.org and is distributed by NPR. [Music fades out.]
jesse thorn
I’m Jesse Thorn. It’s Bullseye.
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“Huddle Formation” from the album Thunder, Lightning, Strike by The Go! Team. A fast, upbeat, peppy song. Music plays as Jesse speaks, then fades out.
jesse
Next up on the show, actor Winston Duke being interviewed by our friend and correspondent, Jarrett Hill. Duke was born in Trinidad and Tobago, moved to Brooklyn when he was nine. He studied acting at Yale. In his early 20s, he worked mainly in TV. He didn’t break into movies until he was 30, but he started with a heck of a movie! He played M’Baku in 2018’s Black Panther.
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M’Baku (Black Panther): [Shouting.] We have watched and listened from the mountains. We have watched with disgust as your technological advancements have been overseen by a child! [The sound of weapons being drawn, underlined by the rush of flowing water.] M’Baku: Who scoffs at tradition. And now, you want to hand the nation over to this prince who could not keep his own father safe. Mm?
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jesse
He followed that up with an appearance in Avengers: Infinity War, then with a starring role in Jordan Peele’s Us. When you see Duke in person, it’s not hard to imagine him in a superhero film. He is a big guy—6’5” and solidly built. He’s already shooting the sequel to Black Panther right now. Last year, though, he starred in a very different movie: Nine Days, written and directed by Edson Oda. In Nine Days, Winston Duke plays Will. Will lives in a house in the middle of an unearthly desert. His job it to interview souls who want the chance to inhabit a living person’s body. One of the candidates is named Emma. She’s played by Zazie Beetz. Emma isn’t really like the others. She’s curious, free spirited, and she often gets Will to think about his own existence. In this clip, she interrupts him while he’s watching TV to ask a few questions.
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Will (Nine Days): Are you finished? Emma: Not yet. [Sounds of eating.] Will: So… Emma: You want some? Will: No. Emma: Don’t you get hungry? Will: I’m like you. I don’t get hungry, but I can eat. Emma: So, why don’t you eat? Will: Because I don’t get hungry. Emma: That’s not really the point of eating. Will: [Beat.] For me, it is. [A door creaks open.] Emma: Alright. [The door slams shut.] Will? What’s it like? Will: What? Emma: Real life. [Music fades in on a gentle chord.] Will: Maybe you’ll find out.
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jarrett hill
Winston Duke! Welcome to Bullseye.
winston duke
Thank you! Thanks for having me.
jarrett
Absolutely. I—I don’t normally start of an interview this way, but I just got done watching Nine Days. [Winston chuckles.] And the question I wanted to ask you first was why did you become an actor?
winston
Mm. Why did I become an actor. There’s a lot of different reasons, but it’s technically one of the first things that I actually, cognitively knew I could be good at. So, I wasn’t great or felt like I was very good the first time I acted, which was on a school 24-hour play where, you know, the students come in. They write, direct, and act in 24 hours. But it made me just fully exhilarated, and I felt for the first time this is something that I could be really good at. And that was one of the reasons. And as I go along, I tend to distill my reason for being—you know?—as I go on. Like, I felt for many years like I wasn’t seen, like I wasn’t heard. Acting gave me a voice. Acting gave me a door into understanding many different things. I wasn’t very good at the math and science until I found acting, through which I learned that I need to understand language before I understand anything else. So, it taught me how to teach myself.
jarrett
I haven’t seen like a ton of things that you’ve been in, but I’ve seen enough things that you’ve been in to know that you seem to be really decisive about the choices that you make. And I wanna get into that a little bit more a little bit later, but something that you said was interesting to me—that you felt like you were invisible and not being seen or heard. [Winston hums affirmatively.] What did you mean by that?
winston
Um, I came here at nine years old as an immigrant from Trinidad and Tobago. So, that doesn’t give you a lot of rights and it doesn’t give you, um, a lot of power in a country that is really based in capitalism. You know what I mean? Like, if you’re not a producer of something in a country like the United States, you’re not really given a lot of rights. You know? So, when we first came here, we were just caught up in the American dream, the American model, the American machine. And you know, our pathway for freedom and happiness was education. And going through academia, which is very much rooted in like White supremacy in this country, was really hard. You know what I mean? I was—I was actually counseled to not go to college, ‘cause—you know. In one of those cloaked ways. Like, “College isn’t for everyone.” You know? [Jarrett hums affirmatively.] But my sister, who was in medical school at the time, was like, “No, [censored], you’re going to college.” Like. [They laugh.]
jarrett
I love that. I love that.
winston
And she—like, she literally—she was like, “No. You’re going to college. I don’t care what anyone says.” And she like filled out my college applications, found out about things like the EOP and—the Educational Opportunity Program. And that’s a part of the SUNY schools in New York. And we found a way into college, ‘cause—like I said—before I found acting, my grades weren’t great. I also was very timid and quite shy. Had an accent, foreign kid, food smells, all the tropes. You know what I mean? All of the tropes. [Jarrett chuckles.] And then like overnight—
jarrett
Did you say food smells?!
winston
You know what I mean? They were like, “Oh yeah, your food smells. It’s a weird food. What is that like salt fish thing?” [Jarrett laughs and affirms.] “What’s that like curry thing?” I’m from like delicious food parts of the world. You know what I mean? [Jarrett affirms several times.] It’s got its own things. Its plusses and negatives. But yeah, it’s—it was quite the—quite the trek. So, you know, I just shot up over—like, really quickly, too. Before my voice even broke, I was about six feet tall. You know? And then the American diet, too. So, I gained so much weight when we first got here. I was very lean, like did like a lot of—you know, kid sports. Track and field, soccer. There was field across the street from where we lived in the Caribbean, to moving to Brooklyn, New York, where you can get four fried chicken wings from the Chinese store for a dollar. My mother was like, “We’re living!” You know what I mean? Like. [They laugh.] And yeah, her way of showing love was to show—was for us never to be hungry. You know what I mean? So, like she was giving us everything by just feeding us. You know? But I shot up. I got really big really quickly. And then that came with its own things where I’m starting to get followed. Then when I’m trying in school, I’m being told I’m not very—you know, I wasn’t very smart. This or that. You know what I mean? And it was a lot of different things that made me just retreat into myself. And I wasn’t aware that I was doing that, either. I wasn’t aware those were the manifestations and things that were coming in my life as a result of how I—how the world interacted with me. You know what I mean? [Jarrett confirms.] And before I knew it, I was—you know—second guessing everything I would say, trying to make myself smaller. I would hunch over a little bit to try to be—if you see any pictures of me before maybe 2004, I’m always like—I’m like here with it. You know what I mean? Like.
jarrett
Trying to fit in!
winston
Uh, just trying to be shorter! Trying to fit in! Trying to fit in. [Jarrett affirms.] And it was an acting teacher that sat me down one day, once I finally got into it in college, and he just said like, “How would you describe yourself? Like, what would you say are your weaknesses?” And I said, “I’m really tall. I’m really big. I always feel like I’m really different.” And then he was like, “You know, everything that you’re saying that you think makes you feel unappreciated is what I find is beautiful about you.” You know what I mean? And, um, yeah. That was like lifechanging for me, at the time. You know, I was like 19 years old.
jarrett
Before even getting to this interview, I wanted to talk to you about being tall and I wasn’t sure how I could possibly get there. [Winston affirms.] And here we are. You talked about feeling invisible, but I know that as a—as a tall person myself—I’m 6’3”; you’re 6’5”—that it has an impact on your life and like the way you move around the world. And I’ve been dealing with my body a lot in the last year. This conversation obviously has brought something up for you. What’s behind that?
winston
I don’t know. I mean, it’s a struggle. Whether people—whether it’s positively interacting with your body or interacting with your body in a—in ways that feed your ego temporarily, it’s still a reminder because, you know, you’re always changing. You know? I would say, you know, me gaining any kind of notoriety or becoming like a public figure, you then have this relationship with a public that believes that they own you, own your body, and they’re always looking for how they’ve conditioned themselves to see you. So, if you don’t fall inside that box that they’ve created for you, you’re no longer you. And it’s very—you know, I follow Jonah Hill and he has these conversations a lot. He’s been doing really well with these conversations, and I don’t think people would believe that someone like me—like a big, strong, very traditionally appearing Black male—would have some of these things. But you know—would be dealing with some of the same issues, especially when you’re sexualized the way you are. When it’s seen as something positive and that it feeds your ego, but—whether it’s the negative or the positive—outwardly appearing at least negatively or positive, it’s still a conversation about you’re body and you’re the one who has to live in it. You know? So, like it’s always something that’s like an ongoing conversation and I think a lot more men deal with this—men of all walks, actually, deal with it, but we just don’t talk about it. I don’t—I don’t have conversations like this with my male friends. I’ve never had conversations like this with my male friends. And whether you just say, “Whatever.” You know what I mean? And then—I think the dismissal over self-image issues also breed toxic masculinity, because you go, “If my worth isn’t in my physical appearance, it’s gonna be through something else.” And it’s probably through dominating someone else or being—or sexual conquest in some way. And you know, winning however I can. And it breeds mentalities like that. You know what I mean? And I think no matter how it represents itself, a lot of the root causes is like there’s a lot of toxic body conversations around everything. Height, width, size, shape. Women deal with it a lot more openly, but men also deal with it. Because you know, as they always say, if you’re hurting someone else, you’re hurting yourself. We’re all mirrors of each other in a way. It’s just a real thing that is an ongoing conversation. You know? Kinda learn that.
jesse
Even more with Jarrett Hill and Winston Duke still to come. It’s Bullseye, from MaximumFun.org and NPR.
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Thumpy, jazzy synth with light vocalizations.
jesse
Welcome back to Bullseye. I’m Jesse Thorn. Our guest is actor Winston Duke. He plays M’Baku in the Black Panther and Avengers movies. He was also in Jordan Peele’s Us, where he played the dad, Gabe. In the movie Nine Days, Duke stars as an otherworldly entity who interviews souls for the chance to inhabit a body on earth. You can watch it online, on iTunes, Amazon, or pretty much any other video on demand service. Duke is being interviewed by Jarrett Hill—entertainment journalist and co-host of the Maximum Fun podcast FANTI. Let’s get back into their conversation.
jarrett
I follow you on Instagram. You’re in my feed, you know, a few times a week, I think. [Winston chuckles.] And like I feel like a lot lately, we’ve seen you working out. Like you’ve been working really hard. I know you’re in Atlanta right now. I don’t know what you can say about what you’re there—I mean, people know that you’re filming.
winston
Yeah! We’re shooting Black Panther 2. Mm-hm.
jarrett
Right. And I’ve seen that transformation happening with like just watching you work out a lot. [Winston affirms at regular intervals as Jarrett continues.] And having just watched Nine Days, you’re in a very different body as that character. Talk to me about like the transition from one to the other and what that’s felt like and what that’s done for you.
winston
Because of my very present relationship with my body, I tend to like changing my body for the characters. Um. If a character feels like M’Baku—if a character is living the life of Will but looks like M’Baku, it’s not—you know, it changes everything. So, Will—I just didn’t want Will to feel like a superhero. Will can’t feel as if he is a person who’s very—that has a good relationship with his body. You know what I mean? And I feel like—that’s like every relationship. You know. Energy goes where you put your attention. You know? So, Will’s not a guy that works out. Will doesn’t actually have a real relationship with his body. His relationship with his body’s that he doesn’t talk to it, and he doesn’t interact with it. He uses it as necessity demands in the moment, but that’s it. And he doesn’t really wanna feel like a person. He would love to disappear. His relationship with his body is not the relationship that I would need for a warrior leader. So, every time I do a character, I always try to imagine what are the footsteps that he’s walking in and what’s the relationship they have with their body. And that’s usually one of the first things I do.
jarrett
Hearing how you approach your body, as far as the characters that you take on, really kind of syncs with what I’ve been learning about a lot of actors that I am in community with, that every piece of work that you do speaks to something that’s happening in your life. [Winston affirms.] Or it speaks to your life in some kind of way. I’m curious how Will spoke to you, at that time in your life—two years ago, I guess? When you shot this film?
winston
Well, the work that we do tends to speak to us in different ways at different times for different reasons. Very frankly and honestly, I was really just looking for something that would challenge me. When I read that script, I went on a journey in like three hours of reading it. I would call that climbing the mountain, because the character ends someplace completely different than where he started. And the audience is invited to be on that journey with him. So, I climbed that mountain and I said, “Wow. Where am I? This is—this is amazing.” And then I thought, huh. This could be easily played by a White man, a White woman. It could be easily played by an Asian man. It could be played a Hispanic man. It could be played by anybody. But if it’s played by me, there’s so many freebies that come with me. You know? Now it’s a Black character that has—there’s a Black intellect that’s being interacted with on screen that we don’t get very often. It’s a Black man that’s going through a lot of psycho-emotional pain. Again, we don’t really get to see that. And it has nothing—and he doesn’t lash out through physicality. Right? It’s not—you know? And usually, if it shows Black pain onscreen, he’s getting into a fight and he’s this and he’s that. And it’s very much with the body. He was also not sexualized at all. I thought that was really interesting. He has a lot of relationships in the film, but none of them are romantic. I don’t think we get to see that often enough to know that it doesn’t always have to be. [Jarrett hums thoughtfully.] And when I saw all those things, I said, “If that’s my body that’s telling this story, it’s so much more complex. And that just comes free with me.” So, that was the first thing that really jumped at me was that it was a huge, great opportunity to be more and show more and contribute to a dynamic conversation. After that, while working on it, while working on the character, it was a really short turnaround. We shot it in about 24 days. And just really going to the places where a character like Will lives in everyday, which was a lot of self-deprecation, a lot of denial, a lot of darkness. He’s a—he’s a shadow character. So, most of us operate through our light. That’s the frontend of us. The frontend of us is, “Look how competent you are. You’re such a great interview or you’re a good-looking guy. You’re a fun guy.” People who know you might say you’re very generous and you’re spontaneous and you’re this and you’re that. Those are all your light. And we tend to interact with each other through our light. And then once people get close to us, if we give them that opportunity, they start interacting little by little with our shadows, because they’re spending more time around us and they’re starting to see our insecurities and the things that we don’t really want to show ourselves.
winston
So, Will is actually—the way you see him most of the movie is his shadow. And it takes that last five minutes to finally see his light and it explodes. What that was for me—and kind of confront it and live in it, sit in it, sit in it hour after hour onset. You know what I mean? To play that character. And then after we wrapped, it took me a long time to get out of it. And I took that character home and then we went into quarantine. [Chuckles.] We went right into that quarantine space. And I learned to articulate what I’m saying now. I didn’t see the world through that—those aspects of myself. I didn’t see the world in light and shadows. And I understood the character so much more and differently after the fact, as well. So, it—you know, I would say Will has helped me truly understand myself and confront my own shadows and learn to incorporate them into myself with grace so that I can talk about that first time that I was called beautiful and strong and appealing—you know—by a teacher that meant me well, that wanted to see me grow. And understand what that meant. You know? Like, Will has brought me a lot of self-acceptance, especially at a time when we spent a lot of time with ourselves, and we can do the thinking and the work. That’s what the quarantine was for me, was to sit down and do a lot of thinking. I started therapy for the first time in my life after, you know, thinking that was admitting that I had problems and admitting that I was weak but finding out the reasons for why some of my hurt existed and why I do some of the things I do, how I interact and how I relate, how I am in relation to other people in the world—like how I relate to other people, how I am in relationships. And yeah, like Will brought me to therapy and therapy’s changed my life. So, it’s made me a lot more patient with myself, which means I’m a lot more patient with others. The gifts of Will just kind of keep unraveling as I go through. So, it’s not that it was something that I was thinking about when I picked the role, but the role instead it kind of chose me and transformed me in its own way.
jarrett
I just finished a year of therapy with my own therapist, and it was a really transformative kind of process. And I feel like on the other side of that year, I am just like a completely different person than I was coming into it. It sounds like you’ve gone through something similar in your own life and I’m curious like what are the dark things that you found that you’re willing to share? ‘Cause I’m sure you don’t wanna share everything. But like—and how did you come through that to the other side of this now?
winston
It’s an ongoing process! Um. It’s just an ongoing process. I always compare therapy to your consciousness being this dark room. You know? And you’re up there by yourself in this room, stumbling over everything. And you have no idea what’s really in the room. You’re just—you have a sense of things that are in the room. You’re like, “Oh, I think this is a couch over here. I don’t know what’s on the couch. I don’t know the color of the couch. I don’t know if it’s a pullout. It’s just a couch. I don’t know what’s over there. I think there’s a desk over there. There’s things on the desk? There might be a chair? I don’t know. In the corner there’s some stuff. I keep bumping into that stuff and it crashes. It’s reeeal fragile over there, but I have no idea what the hell it is.” [Jarrett hums in understanding.] Right? And then therapy is being in the room, turning the light on, and you go, “Ooh! It’s a blue couch. And it’s—these pillows are here, and I can sit. I can even lay down!” Because before, I could get to the couch, but I could never make it back to the couch, ‘cause I never knew where anything was, orientationally, in the room. Now, I know there’s a desk and there’s papers and staplers. There’s even an envelope opener on that thing! [Jarrett hums in agreement.] I have more agency over here. I could do so much more. Ah! That’s a little table in the corner and the legs are real fragile. That’s gonna take a long time to fix, but now I know where that is and what it looks like and when I invite people into my room—‘cause you always invite people into your room—that’s all the interactions. I have no idea why any time they walk over there, everything crashes and triggers you and you’re like, “Oh my god.” Right? So, now I could be in the room. I could straighten the room up. I could say, “Hey! Sit on my chair! Please! I would love you to. Go over there. There’s a stapler over there. You wanna do some work? Please do that. Please don’t go in that corner.” Right? You learn now to set the boundaries, ‘cause you know what the things are. You know what the real delicate pain is, and you say, “Oh! I know now how to set these boundaries. I’m working on that area over there. That’s a specific area. That’s a—that’s a real delicate table. One day, when it's fixed, I would love for you to come and have tea with me over there. But please don’t go over there.” Over the past year, every—I’ve just been really learning what things mean and it really started with that character, Will. It’s just I’ve learned how to choose myself and how to choose yourself is you have to create yourself. You have to build your own self and not the self that you’ve been—you’ve inherited? I’ve been learning to choose myself by really making conscious choices on who that self is gonna be in the world. You know? And that’s been bringing me a lot more joy. I’ll tell you that much.
jesse
We’ll wrap up with Winston Duke in just a minute. Stay with us! It’s Bullseye, from MaximumFun.org and NPR.
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Thumpy rock music.
jesse
It’s Bullseye. I’m Jesse Thorn. You’re listening to our correspondent, Jarrett Hill’s, conversation with Winston Duke—star of Black Panther and Nine Days. Let’s get back into their conversation.
jarrett
I feel like I’d be remiss if I didn’t talk to you about what you’re working on right now, with M’Baku and Black Panther 2. I’m not gonna ask you the bad question—
winston
[Chuckles.] The plot?
jarrett
—of like, “Can you tell us about the movie?” And like, “Ooh! What secrets can you tell us?” Like, I’m not gonna do that. I am curious about what M’Baku is doing in you now compared to what M’Baku was for you the first time.
winston
Mm. I mean, everything’s a spoiler with this. So, um. It’s very hard to answer any of the questions. What I can tell you is, you know, it’s—it’s a story that is going to be really honorous to the memory of Chadwick and the Black Panther that he brought us and is in the vein of that same first movie where it’s beautiful, full of pride and strength, love, but not—you know, love in the way that is like amorous love. It’s like agape love. You know? It’s a broad, beautiful, complex love. Love that—love that makes it through trials and tribulations. You know? And that’s the movie that we’re making. And that’s the M’Baku that people are gonna get. It’s an M’Baku of love. It’s an M’Baku that understands his responsibilities. You know? Very much like the M’Baku of the first movie, but I think we—you know, there’s a lot of expanding. So, we—you know, the world of Wakanda is really done justice by the depth of kind of digging that we do with this movie. So, it’s a beautiful one and it’s—it means a lot to be on the set every day.
jarrett
I feel like I’d be remiss to not at least point to the fact that—you talked about this film being all about love and the various different ways that it shows up… the initial question was about what M’Baku brought up in you or is bringing up in you, right now. [Winston hums in understanding.] Playing him. I would imagine that something about love is happening in your own self right now.
winston
Yeah. I think… in my own self, it’s self-love. Daily self-love. It’s daily self-appreciation. Um… really, really figuring out why I’m here. You know? And I think that’s something that even the memory of Chadwick Boseman evokes in me, as well. Which is like figuring out why I’m here. He always said, you know, he knew why he woke up every day—like in every interview. He was like, “I know why I wake up every day, because I’m supposed to be doing this. Like, I know why I’m here. I’m living in my purpose.” And for me, it’s really distilling that purpose into something that is just laser targeted. And that takes love, and it takes maturity. You know, I read somewhere that happiness is for adults. [Chuckles.]
jarrett
Unpack that!
winston
Uh, happiness is for adults! It takes—it takes maturity for true happiness. It takes acceptance. [Jarrett hums in understanding.] It takes letting things go. It takes serenity. Right? To admit the things that you can’t control, those kind of things. It takes detachment. It understands that love isn’t enough for most relationships. There’s a lot of different things that come into play that you need. It’s acceptance. Acceptance is huge. And that acceptance comes with maturity. And only once you have things like that—right?—can you really be happy. You know? Like, happiness is for adults. It comes with—it comes with maturity. So, you can’t be immature and happy. It’s—you’ll—everything is temporary when you’re—when you’re very young. Because you don’t know any better.
jarrett
I really appreciate your time today and coming in and talking with us about your life and this role with Nine Days. It’s a really intriguing, thought-provoking film that you’re probably gonna have to watch multiple times to see it and hear it in different ways. So, I appreciate you coming in today. Thank you so much, Winston Duke.
winston
For sure! Thanks for having me.
jesse
Winston Duke! Nine Days, his latest movie, is available to watch online pretty much anywhere. Go check that out. Our thanks to our correspondent, Jarrett Hill, for conducting that interview. Jarrett also cohosts the Maximum Fun podcast FANTI. On it, he and his co-host, Tre’vell Anderson, dig deep into the problematic, nuanced parts of pop culture. It’s a great show. You can find it wherever you get your podcasts.
music
Bright, chiming synth.
jesse
That’s the end of another episode of Bullseye. Bullseye is created from the homes of me and the staff of Maximum Fun, in and around greater Los Angeles, California—where just recently, my son Oscar and I donned our masks and hit up the Peterson Automotive Museum. And in the underground vault tour, we saw a car with claw marks from the Black Panther himself. It was a lot of fun. Also, one that Elvis shot holes into. [Chuckles.] ‘Cause he was mad it wouldn’t start. Our show is produced by speaking into microphones. Our senior producer is Kevin Ferguson. Our producer is Jesus Ambrosio. Production fellows at Maximum Fun are Richard Robey and Valerie Moffat. Our thanks to our departing pal, Casey O’Brien, who helped us for many years. Our interstitial music is by Dan Wally, also known as DJW. Our theme song is called “Huddle Formation”. It was recorded by the group The Go! Team. Thanks to them and to their label, Memphis Industries, for sharing it. You can also keep up with the show on Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube. We post all of our interviews there. I think that’s about it. Just remember: all great radio hosts have a signature signoff.
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Speaker: Bullseye with Jesse Thorn is a production of MaximumFun.org and is distributed by NPR. [Music fades out.]
About the show
Bullseye is a celebration of the best of arts and culture in public radio form. Host Jesse Thorn sifts the wheat from the chaff to bring you in-depth interviews with the most revered and revolutionary minds in our culture.
Bullseye has been featured in Time, The New York Times, GQ and McSweeney’s, which called it “the kind of show people listen to in a more perfect world.” Since April 2013, the show has been distributed by NPR.
If you would like to pitch a guest for Bullseye, please CLICK HERE. You can also follow Bullseye on Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook. For more about Bullseye and to see a list of stations that carry it, please click here.
Get in touch with the show
@bullseye.bsky.social
@bullseyewithjessethornPeople
How to listen
Stream or download episodes directly from our website, or listen via your favorite podcatcher!
