Transcript
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Speaker: Bullseye with Jesse Thorn is a production of MaximumFun.org and is distributed by NPR. [Music fades out.]
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“Huddle Formation” from the album Thunder, Lightning, Strike by The Go! Team. A fast, upbeat, peppy song. Music plays as Jesse speaks, then fades out.
jesse thorn
It’s Bullseye. I’m Jesse Thorn. Billy Eichner is my first guest this week. He is, of course, the host of Billy on the Street, the bonkers gameshow where he runs up and down the streets of Manhattan, yelling questions at strangers.
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Music: Suspenseful, orchestral music. Billy Eichner (Billy on the Street): For a dollar, name a woman. Speaker: Name a woman? Billy: Yeah. Speaker: Uuuum. Billy: Who? Speaker: Who? Billy: No, name a woman. Speaker: [Laughing.] Name a woman? Billy: Yes! Speaker: Umm. Billy: [Censored] yoga bag! Name a woman! Speaker: Sorry! Billy: No, name a woman! Speaker: Name a woman? Billy: Yes! GO! Speaker: Any? Billy: YES! Speaker: Oh my god, why is this so hard? Billy: [Voice cracking desperately.] Name a woman! Speaker: Um. Billy: [Screaming.] Name a womaaan!
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jesse
He’s also an actor. He played Craig on Parks and Recreation. He starred alongside Julie Klausner on the great show Difficult People. He voiced Timon in the recent Lion King reboot. And of course, he’s done many other things as well. Now, he has written and starred in his first movie. It’s called Bros. You might have seen the trailer. It’s a romantic comedy produced by Judd Apatow. It’s also a romantic comedy about a same-sex relationship. Bros features an entirely queer cast, the first of its kind from a major studio. Billy stars as Bobby Leiber, a podcast host who also works at an LGBTQ+ history museum. He’s single, never settled down, and one night while he’s out, he meets Aaron. Aaron looks like a decent enough guy. Fun to hang out with, not especially serious. But eventually, Bobby sees there’s more there. A relationship develops. The relationship gets put to the test. Will they end up together and live happily ever after? Well, you’ll have to watch Bros to find out. I’m not spoiling it. It is a romantic comedy, though. If that sounds like a classic romcom plot, like When Harry Met Sally or Moonstruck, it kind of is. But it also kind of isn’t. Bros is true to the world in which it lives. A world with Grindr and poppers and throuples. That’s one of the things that makes Bros so unique and refreshing. It’s also part of what makes it really, really funny. Here’s a bit from Bros. This clip comes from early on in the movie. In this scene, Bobby—played by Eichner—is leaving a date with a guy he met at a club. Bobby asks his date back to the house, and when his date declines, he gets a little annoyed.
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Bobby (Bros): So, basically you texted me when you were feeling hungover and lonely in that moment, but you’re not actually into me, but you went on the date anyway. Why are gay guys so weird? Actually, you know, we’re not weird. We’re just constantly catering to our own whims and needs, which can change on a dime, but we never even think about the emotional consequences on the other person. Anyway! It’s been a blast catering to your whims, and honestly I can’t really say anything about it, because I do the same thing to people all the time. So. Fun day! Speaker: [Unenthusiastically.] Fun day.
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jesse
[Laughs.] Billy, welcome back to the show. It’s so nice to get to talk to you again.
billy eichner
Thank you! Thanks for having me back.
jesse
Congratulations on taking on the full arc of LGBTQ+ history. [Billy thanks him.] Your own personal neuroses. Right? Your own cultural identity outside of simple gayness. And your I would presume somewhat complicated relationship with the romantic comedy all in one [laughing] ambitious comedy film.
billy
Yeah, it’s a—Bros is epic! It really is. Thank you. I’m so glad that you noticed all of that. Because that’s all true! You know? That was part of what I needed to do, here. All of those things. And I felt a responsibility to do all of those things, and also as a writer—a co-writer of the movie, but the gay writer involved and the person who the movie centers around, I wanted to do it. It was an opportunity to tell my story, even though it’s scary and vulnerable. And to hopefully do it in a way that is hilarious and makes people laugh a lot.
jesse
It’s a lot to take on, though. Did you ever think about cutting one of them?
billy
No.
jesse
Like, I’m not gonna do the native New Yorker stuff? [Laughs.]
billy
No, I wanted to do all of it. You know? This movie is a really long time coming. And not that we ever sat around—Nick Stoller and I, who co-wrote the movie and Nick directed it. Judd Apatow produced it. Those guys have some experience making great, very mainstream, major studio comedy blockbusters. But they’ve never made one like this. It’s the first of its kind in so many ways. And I wanted it to be big and expansive. And I wanted it to be somehow a great combination of intimate when it comes to following these guys and watching them fall in love. I wanted it to feel real and grounded and beyond being funny, of course, emotionally I wanted it to be real and grounded. And I see so many romantic comedies—whether it’s a TV series or a movie—where the audience is just supposed to believe these two people are in love. Right? In order for the rest of the movie to proceed. And I didn’t wanna just have—just sort of force people to think, “Oh, well, these guys are in love, so I guess I’m supposed to care about their relationship.” I really wanted to show from the earliest moments of them meeting why they were in love, what they did for each other. Like, moment to moment. Right? So, in that way, I wanted it to be really intimate and specific. And we’ve gotten so little—so few stories like that about gay men. Right? Which felt real and didn’t feel cartoonish. I wanted it to feel big and epic and beautiful and glorious. [Chuckles.] And so, there was a lot of ground to cover. That’s the standard that we set for ourselves. You know, I hope that we met it in some fashion.
jesse
I mean, one of the challenges is that part of the appeal of a romantic comedy is that it has all these obstacles in the narrative, but we know that it’s a comedy not just in the sense that there are jokes. Sometimes, there barely are jokes in romantic comedies. Many romantic comedies are not funny.
billy
Not this one. Lotta jokes, Jesse.
jesse
Lotta great, funny jokes in this movie. Besides that, it is—we know that it is a comedy in the classical sense, that like at the end, they get married kind of comedy. Right? That it will work out. And so, that fantastical element of it is part of the appeal. It’s why people watch Hallmark movies, which are a big part of this movie. [Billy agrees.] So, what does watching a movie like that feel like to you? What does it feel like whether it’s a bad one from 1999 when it was 25% of all movies or a great one? What does it feel like to know what that movie is gonna be? Like, to have that comfort.
billy
I love great romantic comedies. I grew up loving them. I grew up in an era—meaning, you know, the ’80s and ’90s—when we had a lot of great romantic comedies. And they were—they certainly weren’t avant-garde, by any means, but they weren’t supposed to be—but they were smart. And they were urbane, and they were literate. Even though they were also great mainstream, broadly appealing pieces of entertainment. And I’m talking about Moonstruck and Tootsie and Working Girl and the Nora Ephron movies, Sleepless in Seattle. And I grew up loving those movies. They’re the movies that as a kid made me wanna be an adult. You know? [Jesse laughs.] They made me want to be in a relationship in New York with another adult. Right? And those movies—even about straight people—romantic comedies of the standard of the movies that I just mentioned have disappeared. And I think we need that right now. And that sounds like a cliché, but I really do feel that we need that movie-going experience. And I’ve been watching early screenings of Bros, sitting in theaters all over America, watching hundreds of strangers laughing and crying and I think people have forgotten what a fun and joyful experience that is! You know? It’s not Top Gun. It’s not Thor. The thrills are different. But it is equally thrilling, and it’s powerful, and it’s really funny! And it’s such a great escape from the bleakness of the news and the anxiety of our lives and social media and all of that. I wanted something that would make people laugh, but really sweep people away the way that those films I mentioned that I grew up with did. So, that was my goal. And I think there’s value in doing something that makes people feel good without it being a cheap version of feeling good, or something too easy. I do hope—people will have to judge for themselves, but I hope that Bros is feel-good and uplifting while still giving people something insightful to think about. You know? When it comes to relationships in general or gay relationships. You know, this movie is unlike a lot of things that street people certainly have ever seen. That’s for sure.
jesse
We’ve got so much more to get into with Billy Eichner. Stay with us. It’s Bullseye, from MaximumFun.org and NPR.
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Thumpy rock music.
jesse
It’s Bullseye. I’m Jesse Thorn. I’m talking with Billy Eichner, writer and star of the new romantic comedy, Bros. You mentioned these past films that come from the—both the Nicholas Stoller and Judd Apatow oeuvres. I don’t know if the plural oeuvre is oeuvres.
billy
[Amused.] Oov-ruhs? Yeah.
jesse
Yeah, I couldn’t tell you. But like, even like Forgetting Sarah Marshall, which is one of Nick Stoller’s movies—one of my favorite romantic comedies.
billy
It’s so good.
jesse
I was about to say like recently—relatively recently, but like ever.
billy
Yeah. Great movie.
jesse
Even that, they all have—they have a lot of kind of outrageous situations and people saying different, funny stuff. But they have relatively few joke-jokes. And this show has some great joke-jokes.
billy
Movie, yeah.
jesse
Like—thank you. People saying funny things. [Billy agrees.] Like, making funny remarks.
billy
Yes, it does. I’m so happy that you noticed that. And I should say too—and this happens with every interview about Bros that I do—because of the historic nature of it, the interviews become very serious. Right? They become all about my struggles as an LGBTQ this or that or like, you know, the history and the trauma that gay people in Hollywood—and that is important to acknowledge. But really, this is like a really funny comedy. You know? It has some more serious moments, of course, some more poignant moments. I hope people think they’re poignant. But really, our goal every day when writing it was what’s the funniest thing that can possibly be said in this scene, every moment? Right? We really wanted a movie that would make people laugh out loud, beginning to end. I think, you know, so many of these movies that pass themselves off as a comedy and that, I guess, theoretically are—and again, there are exceptions, but so many of them—how often do they really make you laugh out loud? Right? Very rarely. And so, Nick and Judd Apatow and I like, we love movies that make you laugh out loud as much as humanly possible. Like, that’s the point of going to see it in a movie theater. That’s so fun. And it’s such an escape and a stress reliever. And that’s what we wanted. And we loved jokes. I love a good joke. You know? And as long as it feels organic to the dialogue. So, this movie is jampacked with jokes and physical comedy and big set pieces. And all of it—you know, everything that you would see in a Judd Apatow movie is in this movie. And that was really our priority. Again, aside from all the historic stuff and the gay stuff is, “Let’s just make a really funny movie.”
jesse
That was, I think, the piece of this film that reminded me the most of your great television show, Difficult People, with Julie Klausner. [Billy thanks him.] [Chuckling.] Which was that show often felt like a contest for most funny jokes about very specific things, no matter—no matter how relatable or unrelatable or like pleasant or unpleasant they would possibly be. All from the character’s voices. Don’t get me wrong! Not random jokes. But often, like a contest to see how many of those very specific, intense jokes you could fit into 25 minutes or however long a television show is. And I thought like, well, this is Billy Eichner here. Like, Billy’s gonna put in some really good, specific jokes whether or not he’s making a film in a relatively sentimental genre. [Laughs.]
billy
Yeah! I mean—yeah. I would say Bros—I love Difficult People. I would do it again in a heartbeat. I hope we get to do a movie or something. And I still speak to Julie all the time and love her. I think Bros is very different than Difficult People. Yes. One way they’re similar is that there are a lot of jokes in Difficult People and there are a lot of jokes in Bros.
jesse
I truly mean—that is the thing that reminds me. Like the element.
billy
Totally. Yeah. And by the way, I’d be flattered for people to think it’s like Difficult People, because I love that show.
jesse
Yeah, that show ruled.
billy
I love that show so much. But yeah, I think with Bros, yes, we wanted a lot of jokes in there, but I think we—you know, it is a romantic comedy. And it is getting released in movie theaters and multiplexes all over the country. And so, we wanted the specificity and the nuance, but we do want it to be relatable. We do want it to be emotionally accessible. Because that’s what’s—you know, that’s what’s comforting and meaningful about a great romantic comedy, I think.
jesse
One of the moments of representation that I really enjoyed in the film is, there’s an actor in the film who’s also a producer on the film, named Guy Branum, who—
billy
Love him.
jesse
He’s the greatest. Known him for a long time, been a guest on this show, hosted this show before. And Guy, over the course of his career, has gotten to play a few gay best friends. Like, his onscreen successes have largely been as a gay best friend. Which is a trope that has gone back in romantic comedies 30ish years now. I was so excited when in the third scene in the movie or something like that, he's standing next to you being your best friend, and I thought, “Look at that! Guy finally gets to be a gay best friend to a gay guy!” [Laughs.]
billy
And he’s sexual in it! You know, and he has his own sex life. And you know, he’s not some one-dimensional/two-dimensional gay best friend character who’s there just to serve a story—you know—about some straight leading woman. You know?
jesse
To serve the emotional life of a woman. [Billy agrees.] And have no emotional life themselves.
billy
Yeah, exactly. And we’ve seen that so many times. And hey, at the time that’s what we had. And brilliant actors, like Rupert Everett, they ran with it, and they stole those movies. And again, you have to ask yourself where the hell were Rupert Everett’s movies after My Best Friend’s Wedding? You know? Where were Nathan Lane’s big movies after The Birdcage? Nathan has spoken about this. I’ve heard him in podcasts like this say he was waiting around after The Birdcage saying to his agent, “Where are the offers?” And I think he had one offer to play like Mr. Magoo or something. Literally. And—
jesse
He’s great in Mouse Trap.
billy
No, Mouse Hunt, yeah.
jesse
Mouse Hunt, thank you.
billy
Well, that’s what he ended up doing—Mouse Hunt. Which is a lovely family film.
jesse
It’s really funny. I was really surprised when I watched it how funny it is. It’s a very good movie.
billy
That actually made a lot of money. And that was Gore Verbinski’s first movie, before Pirates of the Caribbean. And so, you know, Nathan Lane, a legend. I’m not diminishing. I worship the man. And have since I saw him in Guys and Dolls when I was 13 years old, on Broadway. But I’m just saying, like these guys did not get the opportunities that they were supposed to get. And when we did, we were there to help the women out. You know? We were the woman’s best gay friend. That has happened so many times. It’s countless. Right? And so, with Guy—yes, he’s playing my best friend. I mean, you know, the movie is populated by LGBTQ characters. There are straight characters in the movie, and I’m proud to say all played by openly LGBTQ actors, which never happens. Older ones, younger ones. But one of the things we deal with in the gay community too—there’s obviously, you know, there’s—we’re dealing with our own biases. You know, our own internal biases in the community. But in the gay community, you know, the lack of body diversity that we see—in terms of the gay representation in TV and film—A) it doesn’t reflect the reality of the gay community, which is of course very eclectic. You know, everyone that you see on TV is always—not everyone, but let’s say of the vast majority, it’s like they’re always like so fit and ripped and—whether it’s a straight man playing gay or a gay man playing gay, that’s just what Hollywood has wanted. I guess. Or maybe that’s what they thought we all were? But we’re not! We’re everything.
jesse
We’ll finish up with Billy Eichner after a quick break. Don’t move. It’s Bullseye, from MaximumFun.org and NPR.
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Thumpy rock music.
jesse
Welcome back to Bullseye. I’m Jesse Thorn. My guest is Billy Eichner. Eichner is, of course, the creator and host of the reality game show, Billy on the Street. He’s starred in shows like Difficult People and Parks and Recreation. Eichner also wrote and starred in the new movie Bros. It’s a romantic comedy. It’s produced by Judd Apatow. It is very, very funny. You should definitely see it. Let’s get back into our conversation. So, Nicholas Stoller cowrote this movie with you and directed it. He is a straight dude.
billy
So straight.
jesse
Middle aged straight man.
billy
Yes. They still exist! Can you imagine?
jesse
I can—yes. [Billy laughs.] Yes, Billy. [Chuckles.]
billy
Oh, I know they do. Yes.
jesse
I can speak to that. He is obviously a very smart, very talented guy. Has directed some wonderful movies, etc., etc.. When the two of you are working together, what did you have to explain to him that he missed because he’s a cis, straight dude?
billy
I think early in the writing process, I had to educate him about gay culture. You know? The first thing I said to Nick—Nick came to me. The idea to do a gay romcom was Nick’s idea. People say, “How did—when did Nick Stoller come onboard?” It started with Nick. Nick and I had worked together a couple of times, never to this degree and never as cowriters. I had acted in a few different projects of his. And he emailed me I think in 2017 out of the blue and said, “I want my next movie to be a romantic comedy.” You know, Nick loves very funny, big, major studio comedies and like Forgetting Sarah Marshall and Neighbors and The Muppets and all that stuff. And so, he said, “But I think it would be cool if it was about a gay couple.” And he said, “I like working with you. I’m not gay. Do you wanna write it with me? And if all goes well, you can star in it, and I’ll direct it.” And he did—you know, he has a long history with Judd Apatow. And he did think that, you know, Judd would be interested. Judd’s been looking for a project like this for a while. And he thought Judd would come onboard if—you know—the pieces fell together in the right way. And I said yes. But the first thing I said to him, having no idea what the movie would turn out to be about—I had no idea if I had a story to tell. I had no idea if I could carry a movie or any of that. And all those questions about whether I could were running through my head, but what I knew from the very first moment—I remember, we had coffee together and I said, “All I know is this: if you think we can make When Harry Met Sally and just swap in two gay male characters and have the rest of it play out the same, that’s not gonna work for me.” And I looove When Harry Met Sally like we all do. And I grew up with it, and I rewatched it during covid twice I think. You know. As much as I love those movies, A) I don’t even think those movies, as great as they are, reflect what dating for straight people is like anymore, obviously. Things have evolved. There’s technology and all of that stuff. And for gay men, they were never an accurate representation of how we date. Some of it is exactly the same, and some of it’s not. That’s what’s exciting and fresh about Bros is that you see where there’s overlap. [Chuckling.] You see how there—you know, where things diverge and how we do things a little differently.
jesse
What’s an example of something that you clued him into?
billy
So—yeah. So, I had to teach Nick about certain things. I mean, something as simple as like Nick had heard of Grindr. A lot of people know the word Grindr now. It’s sort of part of the pop culture vernacular. But most straight people don’t know what Grindr actually looks like and how it functions. And so, I took out my phone. I was like, “Stoller, you’re gonna have to take a looksee through Grindr right now.” And I sat there and showed him Grindr. And I talked about how many of my gay male friends have created their own rules and, shall we say, versions of monogamy. Which is to say, even when you’re in a long-term couple, sometimes not so monogamous. Some are. I have gay male married friends—dear, old friends of mine—who are totally monogamous and married and have children running around Santa Monica, wherever they are. Um, is that where you go when you’re kids?
jesse
That’s just an example of somewhere you might—yeah.
billy
But I also know a lot of long-term, gay male couples where they have an open relationship. And by the way, I think with young straight couples now—like everything, it starts in the gay world, and it moves to the straight world eventually. Right? And so, I think a lot of straight couples now, they might not talk about it with their friends as much. They might not be public about it. But I think the rules are getting a little more liberal. And they certainly have for gay men, now, especially over the past 10 or 20 years or so. And people are very open talking about it. You know? One of—two of my dearest gay friends—I mean, they’re practically my family. They are my family. I was the witness at their wedding when they got married ten years ago. They’ve now been in a throuple for six or seven years. Longer than I’ve ever even been in a relationship with one other person.
jesse
I’ve got a buddy who’s my age—40ish—who’s got an uncle in a throuple. A long-term—
billy
A gay uncle?
jesse
Yeah. Long-term throuple.
billy
Long-term throuple! I always say, you found two? I can’t find one! That’s not fair. And so, you know. We wanted to incorporate that in the movie, and that’s something. You know. I think at the beginning, Nick and Judd, they’re very gay-friendly, but they didn’t know about that. You know what I mean? [Jesse chuckles.] And so, I had to cue them in! I had to educate them. And I said, “Guys, the movie doesn’t have to center around a throuple”—although there is a very fun throuple in the movie that pops up—“But that’s part of the tapestry that we’re creating here!” Yes, I just said tapestry on NPR. But that is the world of the movie! It’s not what the movie’s about, but it’s in the world of the movie. And so, it was so important to me that the movie be authentic. And Nick, to his credit, from the very beginning—even when things took him a little bit by surprise [chuckles], things that he didn’t know—he always said to me, “If it’s honest, it will work. The movie has to be honest. So, if you’re telling me and Guy Branum’s telling me and Luke’s telling me this is how it is, then this is what we’re doing even if it’s new information for straight people.” And by the way, it’s what makes the movie fascinating for straight people, in addition to being funny. I went on Jimmy Kimmel recently, and Jimmy’s been very supportive of me for years and I’ve done his show a million times, but he’s never seen a movie like this. And he watched Bros, and he kept saying to me—both on camera and during commercial breaks, he kept leaning into me. He was like, “The movie is really funny, but also is that what it’s really like?! Like, it looks so fun!” He kept telling me. And it hit me, I was like oh wow! Even like a very progressive dude like Jimmy Kimmel, like this movie is new for people! And he thought it was very funny, but he also thought it was almost like—you know—an anthropological study! It’s like, you know, National Geographic. [Laughs.]
jesse
Well, Billy Eichner, I always appreciate you taking the time to be on the show. As you know, I’m such a fan of your work. I really got a lot of great laughs out of Bros and also was very touched by it. [Billy thanks him.] So, thanks for making the time.
billy
Thank you. Straight people, please go see Bros. Thank you. Goodbye.
jesse
You know what? I think I’m probably more credible with straights. So.
billy
Oh, okay. You can give me that plug. That would be great.
jesse
I’m just—yeah, I’m just gonna ask straights, fellow masc musk straights particularly to go see Bros.
billy
Thank you, Jesse.
music
Thoughtful piano with a steady beat.
jesse
That’s the end of another episode of Bullseye. Bullseye, created from the homes me and the staff of Maximum Fun, in and around greater Los Angeles, California. The show is produced by speaking into microphones. Our senior producer is Kevin Ferguson. Our producers are Jesus Ambrosio and Richard Robey. Our production fellow at Maximum Fun is Tabatha Myers. We get booking help from Mara Davis. Our interstitial music is by DJW, also known as Dan Wally. Our theme song is called “Huddle Formation”, written and recorded by The Go! Team. Thanks to them and Memphis Industries, their label, for providing it to us.. Bullseye is also on YouTube, Twitter, and Facebook. You can find us there and give us a follow and we will share with you all of our interviews that you may share them with others. I think that’s about it. Just remember: all great radio hosts have a signature signoff.
promo
Speaker: Bullseye with Jesse Thorn is a production of MaximumFun.org and is distributed by NPR. [Music fades out.]
About the show
Bullseye is a celebration of the best of arts and culture in public radio form. Host Jesse Thorn sifts the wheat from the chaff to bring you in-depth interviews with the most revered and revolutionary minds in our culture.
Bullseye has been featured in Time, The New York Times, GQ and McSweeney’s, which called it “the kind of show people listen to in a more perfect world.” Since April 2013, the show has been distributed by NPR.
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