Transcript
music
Gentle, trilling music with a steady drumbeat plays under the dialogue.
promo
Speaker: Bullseye with Jesse Thorn is a production of MaximumFun.org and is distributed by NPR. [Music fades out.]
music
“Huddle Formation” from the album Thunder, Lightning, Strike by The Go! Team. A fast, upbeat, peppy song. Music plays as Jesse speaks, then fades out.
jesse
First up on the show this week, I am thrilled to welcome two of my all-time favorite recording artists, Big Boi and Sleepy Brown. You probably already know Big Boi. He’s half of the legendary rap duo OutKast. He’s also a brilliant and prolific solo artist. He’s been on our show before. Sleepy Brown doesn’t need that much introduction, either. He’s a veteran singer-songwriter and producer. With his team, Organized Noize, he helped produce about half of OutKast’s records. [Music fades in.] Oh, and besides that, they co-wrote and produced what might be one of the iconic songs of the ‘90s.
music
“Waterfalls” from the album CrazySexyCool by TLC. Listen to me Don’t go chasing waterfalls Please stick to the rivers and the lakes that you’re used to I know that you’re gonna have it your way or nothing at all But I think you’re moving too fast [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
jesse
Sleepy Brown is also a singer.
music
“The Way You Move” from the album Speakerboxxx/The Love Below by OutKast. I like the way you move I love the way you move [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
jesse
That’s him on OutKast’s monster single, “The Way You Move”. And he’s worked with Tupac and Jay Z, Ludacris, even Sly & The Family Stone and Curtis Mayfield. Sleepy Brown and Big Boi have been close pretty much their entire adult lives. So, it made sense when—last year—they announced they’d recorded an album together. The Big Sleepover dropped in December of last year. I’ve been bumping it in my car pretty much every day since—maybe not every day, but real close to it. [Music fades in.] It is a great record. Let’s kick things off with a track off the album. This one is “The Big Sleep is Over”.
music
“The Big Sleep is Over” from the album The Big Sleepover by Big Boi & Sleepy Brown. The definition of up-and-coming I'm hitting the ground running Like a— that ain't never had nothing They microwaving and I'm out the damn oven So, fool, it's quantity over quantity still And we'll kill any— on the field, player We have nothing else to prove (we have nothing else to prove) [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
jesse
Big Boy, Sleepy Brown, welcome to Bullseye. I’m so happy to have you on the show.
big boi
Yo, what’s up, man. What’s up?
sleepy brown
Thank you, great to be here.
jesse
I went back and read this oral history of the Dungeon Family that was in Creative Loafing, a alternative newspaper in Atlanta maybe 15 years ago it ran. I don’t know. It was a long time ago. [They affirm.] And I had forgotten about—Big Boi, you and André auditioning for Organized Noize. I think maybe—I’m trying to remember where the scene was. You probably remember better than I. But the detail in the story—maybe Rico Wade said it that I—that I liked the best was that both of you had bald heads and Huaraches on your feet. Mexican sandals on your feet. [They chuckle.]
sleepy brown
And overalls! Hell, the overalls. Yeah.
jesse
Oh, for real? Were they—did they have shirts on underneath the overalls? That’s what I wanna know, Sleepy. [Chuckles.]
sleepy brown
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, they did. Yeah. Absolutely. [Laughs.] Absolutely.
jesse
So, you—by the time OutKast auditioned for you, Sleepy, you’d been in Organized Noize—the production group that produced the first OutKast record and lots of other OutKast and Dungeon Family stuff—for a little bit. [Sleepy confirms.] Were you looking for rappers? Like, how’d they end up—how’d they end up in front of you?
sleepy brown
Okay, well, you know I started—you know, me and Rico started—well, me and Rico and Ray, excuse me, started Organized Noize together. And we were producing groups. We had a group called PA that we were working with, with Pebbitone, which was Pebbles’ record label. And after that project, basically—you know, Rico wanted to work with another rap group. So, the story is that the guys heard a tape that we had over at a friend’s house and heard some instrumental work that we were doing, and they were very interested in meeting us. So, this girl actually, named Bianca, that worked with Rico went to school with Big and Dré and she would—you know, like for a week, she would just be like, “Rico, I really need you to meet these guys. These guys are really cool. You gotta meet them. You gotta listen to them, please.” And he was like—you know, at first he was listening. But then, you know, all of the sudden he was like, “Alright, cool, just tell them to come on up here.” ‘Cause we were all up there. And dude, as soon as they walked up there, we were like, “Okay!” Like, you know, first of all, when you said the bald heads—no young dude was kicking a bald head, then. Nobody, except for Jordan. That was it. [They laugh.] Nobody in high school was kicking a bald head. So, when they came up there with bald heads, that intrigued me off the—I was like, “Woah.” You know what I’m saying? Like, okay. That’s different. You know what I’m saying? So, you know, once they rapped for us and we got a chance to really know them, we fell in love with them, man. They could just—instead of coming to the Dungeon every other day, they start staying at the Dungeon. [Laughs.] And we just got to work, man! So, you know, I—you know, Rico—I’ma say this. Rico knew more than I knew about what he felt about them. You know what I mean? I was just following Rico, to tell you the truth, and being like, “Okay, well cool. You know, if you’re feeling like that, let’s do it.” You know what I’m saying? But as we started working together, I really started seeing the talent in them and it was like, “Yeah! These boys are insane!” You know what I mean? And they were so eager to learn and try to figure out, you know, this whole rap game. And producing and everything, writing, all that. So, it was a perfect combination, man.
jesse
How old were you, Big Boi?
big boi
Uh, 16.
jesse
The two things that were described in that piece about the verses that you did were that you were rapping over a Tribe Called Quest beat and that you both just went on and on and on, and they were wondering if you would ever stop rapping.
sleepy brown
Yeah, 30 minutes a piece.
big boi
Yeah, it was—it was—it was crazy. [They laugh.] Big Gipp from the Goodie Mob had a burgundy Isuzu Trooper and we had a “Scenario” remix, A Tribe Called Quest “Scenario” remix cassette and we just popped it in and then we just—on the curb, right in front of the beauty supply store, just went crazy.
jesse
Like the cassingle? So, there was the instrumental on one side?
big boi
Yup, yup. Exactly. [Sleepy Brown confirms.] The cassingle!
sleepy brown
The cassingle! I ain’t heard that in a long time!
jesse
[Laughing.] You weren’t rapping over “Rah! Rah!” like a dungeon dragon?
big boi
No, no. It—no, it was a [snaps the beat and hums the melody].
sleepy brown
[Hums along briefly.] Yeah.
big boi
That one. That one! The remix!
jesse
That’s awesome. That’s fantastic. [Big Boi agrees.] What do you remember being struck by, besides the bald heads, Sleepy?
sleepy brown
At that time, it was just their style. You know, the bald heads, the overalls, the shoes. You know. It was so different that, you know—‘cause we were different. You know what I’m saying? Back in Organized Noize days, man, we had finger waves and perms and stuff. You know what I’m saying? [Laughs.] You know. It was a trip. So, for us to see them like that at a time when it really wasn’t popular to do that was—you know, an eyecatcher for me. Like I said, you know, once they—once I really got to know them and, you know—especially Big, and hear where his ear was at with music, ‘cause both of us are Aquarius and we have that weird music thing, man, where we listen to anything. We like all types of music. So, I liked them for that. And then, basically when he rolled in “Claimin’ True” on that first album, I was like oh yeah, he truth. [Laughs.]
big boi
Yeeeah. I mean, you gotta think how courageous it was and how much confidence you gotta have in your face to shave your head. [Jesse laughs and Sleepy Brown agrees.] You know what I’m saying? To be so young and handsome and shave your head. Like, it’s all about your face and your eyebrows.
sleepy brown
Aaall about your face and eyebrows.
big boi
Barely had a moustache.
sleepy brown
You did have a moustache! [Laughs.] [Big laughs and denies it.]
jesse
Big Boi, let’s pretend that that’s why I shaved my head. Okay? [They laugh.] Let’s just say it’s because I have so much confidence in my face. [They agree.] No other reasons.
sleepy brown
No other reasons at all. [They agree.]
jesse
More to come with Big Boi and Sleepy Brown—two actual legends. In just a minute, Sleepy Brown’s dad was also a professional musician. He played in the ‘70s jazz funk band Brick. Sleepy will talk to us about it after the break. It’s Bullseye, from MaximumFun.org and NPR.
music
Chiming synth with a steady beat.
jesse
Welcome back to Bullseye. I’m Jesse Thorn. If you’re just joining us, my guests are Big Boi and Sleepy Brown. Big Boi is an MC, half of the acclaimed rap duo OutKast. Sleepy Brown is a singer-songwriter and producer. He’s a member of the production team Organized Noize. The two of them have worked together on OutKast records and solo albums for three decades. Last year, Big and Sleepy released their first ever collaborative album. It’s called The Big Sleepover. I’m talking with them from Stankonia, Big Boi’s recording studio in Atlanta. When I was in college, my cohost on this show, Gene—I found out one that his dad and mom wrote for the television show Hercules: The Legendary Journeys. [Sleepy Brown reacts with impressed surprise.] And—I know, right? And his dad was in the movie The Stuff. That one. And CHUD. He was in CHUD, too.
big boi
I remember The Stuff. I remember that. [Sleepy laughs.]
jesse
Yeah. And I was from—like, he was from LA, where—you know, his neighbor was Bryan Cranston. Like, he knew people in showbusiness. You know what I mean? [They affirm.] I was from San Francisco. Outside of like one of Bobby McFarrin’s kids went to my preschool, I had never met anyone in showbusiness in my entire life. You know what I mean? And hearing that my friend Gene’s dad and mom wrote on this television show—I mean, not even—with apologies to Hercules: The Legendary Journeys and Gene’s parents—not even a good television show. Blew my mind! Right? [Sleepy affirms.] And I wonder what it was like for you, Big Boi, when you guys hooked up with Organized Noize and not only were they really in the record business—even though they were recording in a basement and you were hanging out with them at a beauty shop—but that Sleepy’s dad was in a great, famous band with Hit Records, Brick?
big boi
How did—how did I feel to know that? [Jesse confirms.] I mean, I knew about it, but I just—I didn’t know the magnitude of what it was at first. And then, you know, then I discovered that he and I were both born and was from Savanna, Georgia. And then to dig further, like my family knew his family. You know what I’m saying? So, the ties were really solidified. It’s like fate, almost. You know what I’m saying? [Sleepy agrees.] Yeah.
jesse
Did you feel that way, Sleepy? You’re nodding your head.
sleepy brown
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. You know, my father—that whole thing, you know—we all—you know, my brothers all respected and loved the fact that I came from that. You know what I’m saying? As far me and Big, you know what I’m saying, like both of us coming from Savanna—you know, over time, us learning about each other. It wasn’t like—when we first got together, it took time for us to kind of hang and really get to know each other and then—you know, more respect came in. So, you know, as far as—I’ve always been proud of my dad, and I’ve always been proud of the fact that we came from Savanna and my dad was kind of a prodigy when he was younger. ‘Cause he put a record out in his younger days, when he was in high school out there in… you know, he wanted a better way of getting into the music business. So, he moved me and mom to Atlanta and—you know what I’m saying—started performing on Campbellton Road, at Marco’s and with SOS band and all that. That was like the hub for Atlanta back then, so to hear that and then—you know, our generation is kind of the same. You know? [Chuckles.] You know what I’m saying? We all—you know, would perform at Yin Yang’s and everybody’d be there. Joi and you know. The whole community of musicians at that spot. So, it kind of reminds me of being like back in the day with my dad, you know. You know what I’m saying? ‘Cause—you know, it was the same thing. You know, Campbellton Road was lit back then! You know what I’m saying? All the bands that blew up in the ‘70s and ‘80s from Atlanta came from Campbellton Road. [Chuckles.] Performing.
jesse
Did you like that your dad was a musician? Did you think it was cool when you were a kid?
sleepy brown
Hell yeah, man! Imagine being six years old and your dad has a number one hit and you’ve never seen your dad perform. And then you go to your first concert and aaall these people are going nuts over your dad that you didn’t even figure out that they have a hit. You know? It’s just—it was amazing, man. It made me feel like I had to do music. I wanted to carry on that whole tradition of what we had, as a family. You know what I’m saying? So, you know, I told my grandma when I first seen my dad perform that I wanna be just like him. So, from that day forward—from six years old—I knew I wanted to do music. I didn’t care what nobody said. So, that was my main focus.
jesse
That’s not always what I hear from folks who come on this show whose parents were especially musicians. Like, Mavis Staples loved Pop Staples. I’ll tell you that. But like a lot of people with a musician for a dad—maybe they’re better at music than they are at dad.
sleepy brown
Right! But! I would say this. Like, I understood what was going on. I knew my dad had to be out of town to do shows. I knew my dad had to be in the studio. I wanted him to do that. You know what I’m saying? So, it was never for me to think like, “Oh, my dad’s not here.” Or nothing like that. I knew what my dad was doing! You know what I’m saying? And I respected him, because I knew that was his job and he loved it. And I love music! So, I always understood that and never fought him for—you know, not being around as much or anything like that.
big boi
To piggyback off what you said, I can say like the challenge and the accomplishments of being a father and a musician—when you can achieve that balance and raise kids to be productive citizens, that’s bigger than any record you can ever sell. [Sleepy agrees several times as Big Boi continues.] You know what I mean? And I’m blessed to have been able to do that with my children and to have them all carve their own paths and just been there, the whole way. You gotta be inclusive. You know what I mean? Like, bring them on the tour bus. Make all the piano recitals—even if you at a show that night. You know what I mean? The chorus rehearsals, the football games. That’s what being a dad is all about. You know what I’m saying? And so, that’s a great feeling to not just kind of sit back—
sleepy brown
That’s one thing I can say about Big. Like, all these years being with him on the road and stuff, man. It was nothing for him to bring his kids on the road. It was nothing for him to—you know, even stop a tour to go—you know, and take care of his kids. So, if anything he’s—[scoffs] Big is probably the best father I’ve ever seen in the music business.
big boi
[Touched.] Aw man. I appreciate it, man.
sleepy
I’ve never seen anybody what really—you know, makes sure he takes out time to be there for his kids. You know? Because it’s music business, man! It can get you locked up. You can finish one tour and then you’ll be like, “Yo. I know y’all wanna go home, but we got a whole ‘nother tour you got to do.” [Chuckles.] [Big Boi agrees.] You know what I’m saying?! You’re like, “Well, wait a minute! I done been out for four months!” You know what I’m saying? So, dude, for him to juggle that and know how to work that is incredible. I’ve always admired him. And in some cases, it’s helped me be a better father to my kids, when I would see him do certain things.
big boi
Aw man, that’s sweet as hell! [Chuckles.]
sleepy brown
Aw man, you’re the best, brother! You’re the best! [Chuckles.]
big boi
I got you, man. Appreciate it.
sleepy brown
I look up to you, little brother!
big boi
Hey, man, as well as I look up to you too, brother. That’s what it’s about, man.
sleepy brown
Absolutely. Now, that’s love. [Big Boi agrees.] Alright, end the interview. We out. [Everyone laughs and Big Boi agrees.]
jesse
Sleepy, what was it like when you were a kid to start with seeing your dad as like a musician making hit records? Right? [Music fades in.] Like, “Dazz”, “Ain’t Gonna Hurt Nobody”, those are like big hit records. [Sleepy agrees.]
music
“Ain’t Gonna Hurt Nobody” from the album Brick by Brick. It ain’t gonna hurt nobody To get on down It ain’t gonna hurt nobody To get on down It ain’t gonna hurt nobody To get on down Don’t stop me And I won’t stop you [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
jesse
And those came out when you were—as you said, you know, you were like a little kid, then. And old enough to remember, but young. [Sleep affirms.] And then see what it’s like—I don’t know how long your dad continued to be a professional musician, but like seeing what it’s like to be somebody that had hit records and is just a working musician doing that kind of stuff. Like, what was it like to see that when you were—you know—16 or 14, instead of 6?
sleepy brown
Uh, it was great. By the time I was 15/16, Brick was pretty much like—the records weren’t selling as great and everything. But my dad continued to do music and he played at clubs, though, ‘cause he’s a musician and he loves to—you know, he loves to play horns and stuff like that. So, what it showed me was that everything had come down and—you know, it’s supposed to teach you a lesson, but at the same time, you still have to go through a lesson to learn it yourself. You know? I could’ve took all I’d seen from my dad and them and learned from that, but of course I didn’t. I was too busy seeing the stardom in them. I didn’t care if they ever sold another record. You know what I’m saying? They had five hit albums. You know what I’m saying? So, to me, it was just kind of like—you know, you have to learn from your mistakes on your own. That’s the only way you can move forward as a human. So, to me, watching them at that time, it didn’t bother me. I knew it bothered my dad, but you know, I always had faith in him. And I always promised myself that if I made it, I was gonna him on some of my records. I was gonna make sure he kept working. You know what I mean? So—and it worked out that way!
jesse
What were you playing when you were a kid?
sleepy brown
I was playing—my dad bought me a drum set at my tenth birthday. And my grandmama—his mother, my grandmother, she passed away—and she taught me how to play organ. She was an organ player at church. And when I was little, she had a little ladder sitting on top of the organ in the house and would teach me chords and, you know, all that good stuff. So, you know. I felt like my family—my dad’s side of the family—was training me. ‘Cause everybody on my dad’s side—all my uncles, aunts, everybody knew how to play an instrument. Everybody knew how to play horns, drums, guitar. Everybody knew how to play everything. So, I just felt like I was in training. You know what I mean? From my grandma—‘cause my grandma would teach me in a fun way, but she was teaching me how to play organ and piano and stuff.
jesse
Did you wanna rap?
sleepy brown
Nah, I didn’t wanna rap ‘til I heard “Rapper’s Delight”, but— [They laugh.] Me, I grew up backstage in a funk era, bro. I saw Cameo. I saw Con Funk Shun, Commodores. Man, I seen everybody. And me and Jermaine Dupri kind of grew up backstage. ‘Cause his dad was my dad’s new road manager. So, you know what I’m saying? I grew up in the funk era. That’s what I knew. That’s why they called me P-Funk when it comes to doing music with Organized. I’m more funk than anything else. You know what I mean? So, I remember one time, I wanted to rap, and I told Ray, my partner, I said, “Ray, you know, I think I wanna rap.” He said, “Well, let me hear some.” And then I did. He said, “Man, don’t you ever rap again in your life.” [Jesse and Big laugh.] And I said, “Thank you, brother!” [Laughs.] For believing in me, you know what I’m saying? So, it made me turn back to singing. [Laughs.]
big boi
Damn.
sleepy brown
Yeah. He pretty hard.
jesse
Did your family get that you wanted to make rap records?
sleepy brown
Yeah! They—I mean, when I played my first—the first song I ever played with my dad. It wasn’t really “Player’s Ball”. I played, um—that’s when we did Society of Soul’s first album. ‘Cause I didn’t really know if he would get me doing—you know—hip-hop. So, I kind of waited until—he knew what I was doing, and he heard OutKast, but I wanted him to hear me do some funk music. ‘Cause I really wanted to make him proud. You know what I’m saying? So, when he first heard “Pushin’” by Society of Soul, he was like woah! [Music fades in.] Like he was—he was so impressed, him and Reggie—the guitar player for Brick, rest in peace, Reggie. So, you know. For me, man, I just wanted to make him proud of me doing what he did. So, it was more about letting him hear me sing and do funk music. You know what I mean? To let him know that funk is still alive when I’m out here. You know what I mean?
jesse
Let’s hear a little bit of Society of Souls.
music
“Pushin’” from the album Brainchild by Society of Soul. … got my yang with that fifth wheel on the dash And I’m booming the whole day through Bending corners, got that Buddha Caught my shawty ‘pon a scooper Got make the news and do what I gotta do (Uh, I’m just) Pushing on Can’t nobody steer me wrong [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
jesse
So, you mentioned “Player’s Ball”, Sleepy. [Sleepy confirms.] That was the first OutKast single. I think kind of an unexpected hit. I mean, I hope that you guys expected it to be a hit, because you hope for all of your work to be successful. But a big hit record that was originally on a Christmas compilation— [Sleepy and Big confirm.] And you sang on the record, Sleepy. Were you a singer at the time? Like did you think of yourself as a singer?
sleepy brown
Yeah, ‘cause we had a group—a singing group way before, called You Boys. So, yeah, I always felt like I could sing. I didn’t feel like I was the great singer, but I felt I could carry a tune. I felt like I could sing like my dad. [Chuckles.] You know what I’m saying?
big boi
Great.
sleepy brown
So, when he first heard “Player’s Ball”—and Ray did the beat and, you know, and Rico was standing there. Rico started quoting like, “Man, Cadillacs. The scene was thick.” and started doing all that stuff, it gave me the idea of going, “Oooh, okay.”
music
“Player’s Ball” by OutKast. '77 Sevilles, El Dogs Nothing but them 'Lacs All the players, all the hustlers I'm talking about a Black man heaven here Know what I’m saying? [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue.]
sleepy brown
So, you know, me being a fan of Curtis and us working with Curtis Mayfield, him—you know, feeling like we’re family, it was easy to—you know, I felt more comfortable singing like that. You know what I’m saying? So, I knew I could sing. I knew I wasn’t a great singer, but I knew I could carry a tune and I knew I could do that hook.
music
[Volume increases.] All the players came from far and wide Wearing Afros and braids in every gangster ride Now I'm here to tell you there's a better way When the player ball is happening on Christmas day [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue.]
sleepy brown
That was true at the beginning, man. I didn’t really think I would get that much attention from singing that hook, but I actually did! Now, everything didn’t really start looking at me until we did “So Fresh, So Clean”. That’s when they started saying, “Oh, okay! That’s Sleepy.”
jesse
What do you remember about cutting “Player’s Ball”, Big Boi?
big boi
I remember them telling us, “Hey, man, finally they’re gonna give y’all a single deal.” And we got an opportunity to make us a song. We were like, “Yes!” And they was like, “It’s gonna be on a Christmas album.” [Jesse laughs.] We was like, “Nooo!” [Jesse and Sleepy both laugh; Sleepy clearly has to step back from his mic from laughing so hard.] It was like they’re trying to end our career before it even started! [Sleepy agrees with a laugh.] So, for us—being the smart gentlemen—
sleepy brown
Hold up. Tell him the name of the original song. Not—before it was “Player’s Ball”.
big boi
The TLC song?
sleepy brown
No, no, no, no, no. The socks and drawers.
big boi
Oh yeah, yeah. It was called “Socks and Drawers” at first. [Jesse chuckles.] So, [chuckles]—so, right. Yeah. It was called “Socks and Drawers”, at first.
jesse
The Christmas classic!
big boi
Yeah, yeah, yeah! But we just said, “Okay, we’re just gonna talk about what we do on Christmas at the Dungeon.” Which was, you know, we just made music and it was like another day for us, ‘cause we was—you know, all focused on making the best music possible. You know what I’m saying? So, we just—you know, did what we did. And it was like, man, one of the best Christmas songs ever next to the Temptations’ “Silent Night”.
sleepy brown
Yes, sir.
music
[Volume increases.] The package store was closed, okay my day is ruined This is ridiculous, I'm getting serious, I'm getting curious 'Cause the house is smelling stank, the chitlins old as— I made no wishes cause I'm mobbing, folks is in the back Getting tipsy off the nog and [inaudible] They having a session in my back seat They passing word and rhyming verses 'cause it's in the air I hit the parks [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
big boi
Yep. So, every—every time Christmas rolls around, it’s like this OutKast was a gift to the world. And it was a gift from the most high for us, to even—to break past that. Because the song was like six, seven weeks at number one on the rap charts. And then when it came past Christmas, LA was like, “Oh man, we gotta—let’s restructure it. Take out Christmas. Put “all day, every day”. Take the sleigh bells out.” [Sleepy confirms and Jesse laughs.] And we’re just gonna let it ride! And we did that, did “Player’s Ball (Reprise)” and Sleepy set it off and the rest is history, man.
sleepy brown
Yeah. Blessings, man. Blessings.
jesse
Sleepy, you said—you were talking about Curtis, I think. You were referring to Curtis Mayfield. [Sleepy confirms.] Who was, of course, famous for his falsetto singing. Organized Noize produced some records with him.
sleepy brown
Yes, before he passed.
jesse
Did you know him already when you—when you were, you know, doing an impression of him on that record?
sleepy brown
Nooo! Actually, uh—no. I was kind of nervous, man. Because we were getting ready to do his last album before he passed, and I’m in the studio. And we’re at Curtom, which we were written out and working on Goodie Mob and Society of Soul at the time and working on OutKast too, “Benz or Beamer”. [Big Boi confirms.] And so, I’m sitting there. I’m really nervous. So, he comes in. He, you know, set him up at the mic and I was sitting in the sound booth and I’m just sitting there twiddling my fingers like, “Uh-oh.” [Laughing.] What’s the first thing he gonna say? So, he gets on the mic. He’s like, “Sleepy, I’m really digging what you’re doing on that OutKast. Keep it up!” I was like ooooh, beeeeep! [Jesse chuckles.] And blew my mind, bro! I was like I can’t believe Curtis Mayfield just said I could sing like him. So, you know, from there on, I started doing more hooks like that. [They laugh.] So, you know, it was a blessing, man. Curtis was such a sweet soul, man. Such a nice guy, man. And we were very fortunate to work with him and do a couple of songs with him before he passed.
jesse
He had already had his accident, right? [Music fades in.]
sleepy brown
Yeah. Yeah, he was already in the—you know, they wheeled him in on like a bed and kind of propped him up to sing and stuff. And you know, he was—he was doing it, man! You know. It was kind of hard for him to catch his breath at times, but he was—he was on it.
jesse
I mean, one thing about the work that you did with him—and that entire album is it is impressively good. [Chuckles.] Like—
sleepy brown
Thank you, man. We thought so, too. Thank you.
jesse
It really—it really holds up, for a record by a 65-year-old man—or however old Curtis was at the time—who had been in a really major accident and—
sleepy brown
Terrible accident, man.
jesse
You know, was like—all those pieces really came together in a pretty remarkable way.
sleepy brown
Yeah, yeah. We were really happy with the end results of that project.
music
“Here but I’m Gone, Part II” from the album New World Order by Curtis Mayfield. How did I get so far gone? Where do I belong? And where in the world did I ever go wrong? If I took the time to replace What my mind erased I’d still feel as if I’m here but I’m gone Perched up in a rocking chair With my feet all bare Rolling my blunt in a cigar wrap [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
jesse
Was part of what you guys were doing right at the very beginning trying to figure out what a rap record from Atlanta that was a national record could be? Like, what that meant?
big boi
We actually honestly, we were just doing us in the Dungeon, man. [Sleepy affirms several times as Big Boi continues.] We knew it was gonna be—it was gonna be bass-heavy. It was definitely—it was gonna be funky, because the basis of all our music has been funk. You know what I’m saying? And it had to be supremely lyrically impressive. You know? So, we really just sharpened our craft all them years on them steps in the Dungeon, just to be able to be prolific at this. Yeah.
jesse
We’re hearing about the Dungeon a lot. Can you describe, physically, what the Dungeon was?
big boi
The Dungeon was a house where we all stayed. It was Rico Wade—he stayed there with his mom and his two sisters. It’s like a two-bedroom house, but there’s a like a living room area where we all had sleeping bags. There were tattered sofas with nails poking out of them. [Sleepy confirms with a laugh.] And then you had OutKast, Goodie Mob, Organized Noize, and a host of others like just—it’s like a never-ending slumber party. A never-ending sleepover, if you wanna call it that. And we were just night and day creating music—writing, producing. Like you know, sharing food off of one plate. You know what I mean? Like—
sleepy brown
The house smelled of dank. [They laugh.]
big boi
Yeah. Reeeal—one thing we didn’t have a short of. We had a shortage of food, but—
crosstalk
Sleepy Brown & Big Boi: [In unison.] We never had a shortage of weed!
big boi
Never! [They laugh.] You know what I’m saying?
sleepy brown
We always had that!
big boi
We always had that! I don’t know where Rico would get all of it—
sleepy brown
That’s amazing too, ain’t it?! [Jesse laughs.]
big boi
Man, we might be hungry as hell, man.
sleepy brown
We’ll be starving.
big boi
And we’ll be smoking, you know you’re gonna get the munchies and still smoking.
sleepy brown
Still smoking!
jesse
What did his mom and sisters think about all this?
big boi
You mean Ms. Wade? Like, to this day, we just went to her—what’d she just 70th birthday party?
sleepy brown
Yeah, 70th birthday. She just turned 70.
big boi
She had it like a maybe a couple months ago, the most kind, open-hearted woman to let all these dudes in the house. [Sleepy confirms.] And you have two teenage daughters in there, who went to high school with me and Dré, actually. Rico’s older sister did. Me and her used to catch the bus to school together. But to have that much trust with all these guys in the house with you and your girls. And she believed in us! You know what I’m saying? And if it wasn’t for Beatrice Wade, we wouldn’t even be here, man. [Sleepy agrees.] Not in this capacity, like this.
sleepy brown
Yeah, not at all.
big boi
She kept—she kept the whole family under one roof and never—we couldn’t go in there and go in that bathroom most of the time. You know what I’m saying?
sleepy brown
Yeah, couldn’t do that. ‘Cause there was only one bath. Only one.
big boi
There was only one bathroom with three women and 12 guys. So, like it was a whole bunch of pissing on the side of the garage. [Sleepy cackles.] Yeah. But—yeah, she let us do it, man.
sleepy brown
Yeah, man. I love Mrs. Wade.
big boi
Yep. And then later on, it was crazy. She became my kid’s nanny. Like, she used to keep my kids for the longest, until they got like in middle school. So, they still call her granny.
sleepy brown
Oh yeah, well yeah, she kind of did that for everybody.
big boi
Like she’s like a grandma to my children.
crosstalk
Big Boi: Like, and Sleepy—everybody’s kids. You know what I mean? Sleepy Brown: Everybody’s children! Everybody’s children. Everybody. She watched all our kids. Big Boi: All of them. [Sleepy laughs.]
jesse
I interviewed Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis six, nine months ago and they’re just delightful guys. And one of the stories they told me was when they first moved out to LA after they had gotten kicked out of Prince’s band—you know, they were working on a record that became a hit record, but they didn’t know that yet. And they went through a solid like year where they had no money at all. Like, literally no money. And they—one of the things they told me about was getting together their—I can’t remember. They had—they knew the specific amount of money they had to get together to go to Church’s Chicken and buy this bucket of chicken that they would then eat for the rest of the week. [They affirm.] And [chuckles] that was the specific food that I read you guys talking about getting all your money together to go get.
big boi
It was from the gas station—the Citgo down the street. It was like a little Italian bodega and a Citgo gas station. They used to have this dish called a spaghetti special. [Sleepy Brown affirms.] And they had about four meatballs on it. [Sleepy confirms with a laugh.] It was affordable. You had four guys splitting one meatball a piece. Don’t get all the sauce. Don’t try to get all of the noodles.
sleepy brown
Don’t get all that sauce or all them noodles!
big boi
Them noodles! And then we would put it on a paper plate, and we would break down one plate like that. So, every time we got about five or six dollars, we knew we had dinner.
sleepy brown
Yeah, they also had little pizzas down there and they had a gyro down there. [Big Boi confirms.] The gyro were good! [Jesse chuckles.] Man, we always used to—some of our homegirls would come out with like Nadja and Tammy and them, and we would talk them into buying us Rally burgers, which were 99 cents, then.
big boi
Oh yeah, Rally’s, yep.
sleepy brown
So, they would give us like—you know what I’m saying, five dollars. And then [laughs]—
crosstalk
Big Boi: Yep! Rally’s—Rally’s [inaudible] Sleepy Brown: Everybody’d get them a Rally’s burger. Big Boi: Rally’s bull[censored]. Bull[censored]. That’s where that song came from. Sleepy Brown: Yeah it were. [Jesse laughs.]
big boi
Over there getting fat.
sleepy brown
Yeah, we were getting fat. And look, I’ma tell you something. Those were kind of like the best times to me, because everybody was so hungry and we were so eager to wanna make it that, you know, everybody was just there, man.
big boi
Surviving.
sleepy brown
Surviving together. And it was just brotherhood. And look, we never had a problem at the house with nobody coming over there trying to talk or start no crap. ‘Cause—you know what I’m saying?—it was a house full of us. [Big Boi confirms.] So, you know what I’m saying? It was work, man, and I loved those moments.
jesse
You guys recorded in the basement of that house. And it was an unfinished basement, right? Like a dirt floor.
sleepy brown
We didn’t really record down there.
big boi
Scratch vocals, maybe.
sleepy brown
Yeah. We might do scratch vocals, but really it was more of a pre-production thing. Like, we would work on the beat in there or write down there. You know what I’m saying? But every once in a while, we might record vocals. But really, it was more of us just working on beats, them writing their thing. We’ll listen to everything then we’ll say, okay, well we got Bobby Brown’s studio, which is Stankonia now. We have—you know, we’re gonna be there this weekend and we’ll be at Doppler, or we’ll be Southern Nights.
big boi
Purple Dragon. Purple Dragon.
sleepy brown
Purple Dragon. Purple Dragon studio. You know, all these other little, small studios. Those were where we really recorded vocals at. Because you know, we couldn’t truly record vocals at the Dungeon, ‘cause they wouldn’t really be no good. You know. We had like a little six-track Tascam. That could record vocals, but it didn’t sound like—you know—professional. It didn’t sound topnotch. You know what I mean? So, we would just—it was more of a pre thing than—
jesse
Where would the beats come from, Sleepy? I mean, there was—there was three of you, plus all these other dudes. You got OutKast and Goodie Mob and everybody else coming through and sleeping in sleeping bags upstairs. So, like was it somebody would bring in a loop? Or somebody would bring in a—
sleepy brown
No, that was truthfully—in the beginning, that was all Ray, because Ray and Rico were crate diggers. You know what I’m saying? So, they would go dig in crates all day. Just listen to records all day and get little snare kicks. You know. And so, it all started from listening to records. ‘Cause like, Ray introduced me to the sample world. I came from the funk world. He introduced me to the sample world, as far as showing me how everybody was using James Brown. “Funky Drummer”, all these records that I didn’t know came from James Brown at the time. You know what I’m saying? But Ray used to walk around with this briefcase, man. This old briefcase that had just about 500 cassette tapes. And all of them had some label. “James Brown snare”. “The Blackbirds”. You know what I’m saying? He just had all these little records he had, and he could sample from. So, that’s where it came from.
jesse
Did you guys, at that time, think it’s our job to do something that is different from the stuff that’s on the radio right now? Were you like we’re just gonna do us? Or was it like we need to do something that is not like this other stuff?
sleepy brown
I would say the first album, we wanted to make sure that we could get on the radio. So, I would say the first album was more of a commercial thing that we were shooting for. But as far as the growth of OutKast, that’s when it started being like, “We ain’t got to do this [censored]. We can do our own [censored].” I mean stuff! [They laugh.] Excuse me! I got a little into it right there.
jesse
Just for the record, that was Big Boi who gave the no swear words glare. [They laugh.] It wasn’t me.
sleepy brown
Yeah, “Don’t you do that! Hold on, what’d you say?” [Laughs.] But yeah, as the growth of OutKast—that’s when you know they became producers and started feeling like they could do their own sound and don’t have to, you know, compare themself to the radio. People would listen to them even if it wasn’t on the radio.
jesse
I mean, I think, Big Boi, if OutKast hadn’t made all the amazing records that it made, just that famous “the south has something to say” moment was like profoundly transformative in hip-hop. Right? It was like we’re not just a second-rate version of the east coast or the west coast. This is its own thing. We are our own thing. [They both agree.]
sound effect
Music swells and fades.
clip
[The sounds of a large crowd as they rumble, applaud, and cheer in the background.] Big Boi: It’s like this, though. I’m tired of folks—you know what I’m saying?—closed-minded folks. You know what I’m saying? It’s like we got a demo tape and don’t nobody wanna hear it, but it’s like this: the south got something to say. That’s all I got to say.
sound effect
Music swells and fades.
big boi
It was like—you know, that moment of just—that feeling not accepted. And an award show fully appears, and you win. It just put the jumper cables on our back. You know what I mean? And we went in the cocoon and made ATLiens. They created a monster. [Sleepy agrees.] You know what I’m saying?
sleepy brown
And by Big and them saying that—Big and Dré saying that on national TV—it woke Atlanta up. After that, everybody in Atlanta started doing something. Well, not started doing something, but really wanted to prove that Atlanta was that thing. So, everybody got to work, which was awesome.
jesse
We’ll finish up with Big Boi and Sleepy Brown after a quick break. In just a minute, we’ll hear about the pleasure they get from collaborating after all these decades. It’s Bullseye, from MaximumFun.org and NPR.
promo
Music: Cheerful banjo music plays in the background. Biz Ellis: Hi, I’m Biz. Theresa Thorn: And I’m Theresa. Biz: And we’re the hosts of One Bad Mother, a podcast about parenting. Parenting is hard and we have no advice! But we do see you doing it. [Trying not to laugh.] Honk if you like to do it! [Giggling.] What was—? Didn’t we have a bumper sticker a while back that was like, “Honk if you did it.” That’s what it was. Theresa: Yeah. I think it was, “Honk if you’re doing it.” [Chuckles.] Biz: [Cackles.] Why did we not ever make this?! Those were a delight. Theresa: We did make them! Biz: REALLY!? Theresa: I think they’re still in the Max Fun Store! Biz: Honk, honk. You’re doing it! Theresa: Thanks, Biz! So are you! Each week, we’ll be here to remind you that you’re doing a good job. Biz: You can find us on MaximumFun.org. Honk, honk. Theresa: Toot, toot! [Music fades out.]
music
Chiming synth with a steady beat.
jesse
It’s Bullseye. I’m Jesse Thorn. If you’re just joining us, we’re finishing up my interview with rapper, Big Boi, and singer-songwriter and producer, Sleepy Brown. The two have been collaborating for decades. They just worked on their first album together, called The Big Sleepover. It’s out now. Let’s get back into our conversation. You guys have been doing this together for so long. What’s the same and what’s different when you go into the studio now, as—you know, grown men with grown children?
big boi
Well, we don’t have to worry about what we gonna eat. [Sleepy agrees with laughter.] That’s—that’s—that’s—that’s first! And like it’s a never-ending process. You know what I mean? Like, even if we are not recording, we are always stockpiling ammunition. If it’s beats or just pieces of verses and hooks and song ideas. So, when we do come in, like we have so many tracks to choose from. Like, you know what I’m saying? Like, I kind of keep it in my phone. Like, just a playlist of like unreleased songs that I kind of just really like and I’m like, “Man, we need to do this one.” Like, some songs—like, say for instance, “Can’t Sleep” on The Big Sleepover album. I’ve had that beat for like eight, nine years. You know what I mean? Sometimes you gotta let it marinate a little bit. [Music fades in.] So, there’s no shortage of music. It’s just like the vibe and what are we talking about on this particular song? You know what I’m saying? [Sleepy agrees.]
music
“Can’t Sleep” from the album The Big Sleepover by Big Boi & Sleepy Brown. This girl keep calling me, yeah Last night, can't sleep Girls keep calling me This girl keep partying, yeah Take two of these and hit me the AM A true MC when I sleep with— singing Banging on wax 'cause they really out here playing Slept by, had a— wake 'em up, no debating Hundred-dollar durag, pomade for the wave [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
jesse
One of the things I love about hearing you talk about making records now, Big Boi, is that I so often hear how much—how much pleasure you take from craft. Like, from being a craftsperson—like refining what you’re doing and exploring and those are kind of like grownup things. Like, 18-year-olds wanna flip over tables, which is also great. But like, there’s a lot of people who enter middle age and lose interest. And I can tell that your interest is every bit as keen. And like you just love to find nooks and crannies and refine what you’re doing.
big boi
Yeeeah. Just like, I am the music. The music is me. Or us, rather. Like, so—like I said, it’s recreational. Like, I don’t have to do this. Like, I love doing it and just the thought of creating a new groove or riding home to a brand-new song with a little piece of verse on there and just exciting to get home and play it on the big speakers and come back in the studio the next day to finish it. It’s like a treasure hunt, almost. [Sleepy agrees.] And when you finish that song, it’s like you unlock the map to the next level. You know what I mean? It’s exciting.
jesse
Sleepy, do you remember a moment in making this record where you felt like you’d unlocked something?
sleepy brown
I kind of felt like that when we sat on the bus and said we were gonna do an album together; ‘cause I knew it was gonna be something special, because it was—just like time for it. You know what I mean? And so, while we were doing the album, I basically was just like, “You know what?” ‘Cause usually on an album I give a—you know, a lot of my thought into it. Which I did with this album, but I really kind of just sat back and let lil’ bro—and then I was just like—you know what I’m saying? I’m just gonna sit here, let little brother tell me what we’re—you know what I’m saying? ‘Cause I felt like his ear was more to the streets than mine. Like, I could do funk and R&B all day. You know what I’m saying? But I wanted to make sure—he wanted to make sure that it was a great mixture on this album between hard and love music. [Laughs.]
big boi
Sultry.
sleepy brown
Sultry soul. You know what I mean? So, for this album, I really just sat back, man, and let little bro drive. You know what I’m saying? Then when he was tired of driving, I’d say, “Alright. I’ll drive a couple of hours.” So, I got in the driver’s seat. You know what I mean? That’s kind of how it went. [Big Boi confirms.] Then we finally made the trip.
jesse
Big, was there a moment for you that you were thinking of a time when something clicked in making this record? Something caught you by surprise?
big boi
I think when we first like—when “Can’t Sleep” came up on shuffle when we were on the tour bus. And it was like—this was just when we had said okay, we’re gonna do the group. And the sample was [singing], “Can’t get to sleep, get to sleep, la, la.” We were like, oh! There it is! [Sleepy confirms.] And it was knocking. And so, we couldn’t wait to get back home to record. And then when we started recording it, it was like, “Man, that’s it right there. That’s it.” And then I think the next moment was when we did “Intentions”. [Sleepy agrees enthusiastically.] Yeah, how that came about, it was just organically created, never genetically modified. Right here in Stankonia, just vibing out to—Ray was just programming something and then CeeLo was in here and then he started singing something and then Sleepy got in there and then I just went and did my thing and that’s—just how that song came together was just great. The progression of it was awesome.
sleepy brown
It really was. Yeah. It was so smooth.
jesse
Well, guys, I’m really grateful to you for taking this time. I’ve loved and admired your music for so long. [Music fades in.] So, it’s really nice to talk to you. [They thank him.] Keep making records. I’ll keep jamming them. I really appreciate it.
crosstalk
Big Boi: Appreciate it brother. Sleepy Brown: Alright. Will do. Big Boi: Alright! Sleepy Brown: Alright.
music
“Intentions” from the album The Big Sleepover by Big Boi & Sleepy Brown. Now I’m screaming, “Where are you?” [Volume decreases and continues under the dialogue then fades out.]
jesse
Big Boi and Sleepy Brown. Their album is called The Big Sleepover. It’s a ton of fun. Go get it.
music
[Volume increases.] I got every intention tonight Baby, you are my mission Let’s do it right I got every intention tonight Baby, you are my mission [Music fades out.]
music
Bright, brassy music.
jesse
That’s the end of another episode of Bullseye. Bullseye is created from the homes me and the staff of Maximum Fun, in and around greater Los Angeles, California—where it is 89 degrees, today! As we record this. Holy mackerel! It’s February, Los Angeles. Get your act together! The show is produced by speaking into microphones. Our senior producer is Kevin Ferguson. Our producer is Jesus Ambrosio. Production fellows at Maximum Fun are Richard Robey and Valerie Moffat. We get booking help from Mara Davis. Special thanks this week to RENEGADE EL REY for holding down the board at Stankonia while I talked with Big Boi and Sleepy Brown. Our interstitial music is by Dan Wally, also known as DJW. Our theme song is called “Huddle Formation”, recorded by the group The Go! Team. Thanks to them and to their label, Memphis Industries, for sharing it. Bullseye is on YouTube, Twitter, and Facebook! You can follow us in any of those places. We share our interviews there, and you can do the same. And I think that’s about it. Just remember: all great radio hosts have a signature signoff.
promo
Speaker: Bullseye with Jesse Thorn is a production of MaximumFun.org and is distributed by NPR. [Music fades out.]
About the show
Bullseye is a celebration of the best of arts and culture in public radio form. Host Jesse Thorn sifts the wheat from the chaff to bring you in-depth interviews with the most revered and revolutionary minds in our culture.
Bullseye has been featured in Time, The New York Times, GQ and McSweeney’s, which called it “the kind of show people listen to in a more perfect world.” Since April 2013, the show has been distributed by NPR.
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