TRANSCRIPT Bullseye with Jesse Thorn: Adam Scott, Boots Riley, Glynn Washington and more- Live at Kuumbwa Jazz Center

[00:00:00]

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Transition: Gentle, trilling music with a steady drumbeat plays under the dialogue.

Promo: Bullseye with Jesse Thorn is a production of MaximumFun.org and is distributed by NPR.

Music: “Huddle Formation” from the album Thunder, Lightning, Strike by The Go! Team—a fast, upbeat, peppy song. Music plays as Jesse speaks, then fades out.

Jesse Thorn: It is Bullseye. I’m Jesse Thorn. This month we’re doing something really special. We are ringing in 25 years of Bullseye being on the air. 25 years! We started as a college radio show on KZSC in Santa Cruz, California, the Heavyweight 88. Every morning, just as the sun was rising, my co-host and I would trudge through the woods to the station to make jokes, do interviews, and raffle off tickets to local flamenco shows.

And this week we return from whence we came! That’s right. We’re back in Santa Cruz. This week’s Bullseye was recorded live at the Kuumbwa Jazz Center on Cedar Street. What does that mean? Well, you are going to hear interviews with Glynn Washington from Snap Judgment, Boots Riley of The Coup and the filmmaker behind Sorry to Bother You, Adam Scott from Severance, and Music from Santa Cruz surf legends, The Mermen. But first we will kick things off with some standup comedy from Scott Simpson.

Scott runs and hosts the standup show Cheaper Than Therapy, which is the most popular independent comedy show in San Francisco. That’s where he’s based. He also co-created the legendary comedy podcast, You Look Nice Today, which they called a “journal of emotional hygiene,” and he’s a good pal of mine! You’re about to hear: very, very funny.

(Audience applause and cheering fades in.)

Scott Simpson: Thank you so much. One more time for Jesse Thorn!

(Cheers and applause.)

What a—(chuckles). I can’t believe he’s been doing the show for over 25 years, and he’s been 35 the whole time!

(Laughter.)

I’m not 35. I just turned 51 years old and—

(Scattered cheers.)

Okay. Thank you. I’ll take that micro “woo”. That feels okay.

I feel great about it. I love middle age. I love— We love it being middle aged. We remember the ‘80s and the ‘90s. You remember! You remember the ‘90s! The ‘90s were fantastic, right old people? Do you remember getting lost?

(Laughter and scattered cheers.)

Do you remember getting lost? Sorry. For the young folks here, I’ll explain.

Sometimes in the 1900s—

(Laughter.)

—we just didn’t know where we were. Do you remember that, old people? Do you remember not knowing at least once per day? It was magic! Magic! It was the best excuse. You could be hours late for a meeting! Hours! And just show up and be like, “I got lost.”

And the other person would be like, :That checks out. Yeah. Yeah. The world is big. World is big.”

We got lost everywhere! Right? I’m not just talking about the mountains or the desert. I got lost once in the middle of Manhattan. I had to ask a police officer where I was. He rolled down his window, went “New York, idiot!”, and drove away.

(Laughter.)

Do you remember directions?! Just approaching a stranger and just hoping that their competence would get you through? Like, I failed so many people. The coast of this Pacific—this side of the country is littered with the bones of Belgians and Koreans who I have sent in the wrong direction.

My son is 20 years old, and he’s grown up with the iPhone in his life, his whole life, right? He has no idea what life was like before the iPhone. The other day, he asked me, “Did you guys just carry flashlights around?”

(Laughter and scattered applause.)

I was like, “No.”

He’s like, “Then how did you get from the bedroom to the bathroom?”

I was like, “We groped!” Right? Do you remember the groping in the 20th century? The stubbing? Do you remember the stubbing? Oh, we stubbed! We knew where every piece of furniture was in the dark, and we didn’t move it for 100 years. ‘Cause if you slide an ottoman six inches, you could murder a man.

[00:05:00]

I love watching my son do stuff. It’s so interesting! He watches everything; he turns the subtitles on. Which I learned recently is—in general, younger people like to turn on the subtitles. And let me tell you, Gen Z, if you like subtitles, you’re gonna love books!

(Laughter and applause.)

It is all subtitle. It’s all subtitle! There’s no pictures getting in the way! Sorry. Gen Z, book is, uh—it’s like a long text message from a stranger. That’s all.

(Laughter.)

Jesse’s been doing this for 25 years. My marriage is almost—it’s a little older than his. We just celebrated our 26th wedding anniversary.

(Applause.)

Thank you. I appreciate it. Queen bed! Queen bed, I should say 26 in a— That’s 40 in king years. That is a tight sleep! We just realized we’re allowed to upgrade. So, we went to the big boy. We got the big boy. Oh my god! It’s amazing! I’m up in north bed.

(Laughter.)

She’s down in south bed. I hear she’s doing great. We were supposed to meet up, but the public transit is a joke.

One thing that I’ve learned is that when my wife wants to tell me her problems or complain, I just listen. I don’t offer suggestions or solutions. (Chuckling.) All the women are nodding at me like, “Correct.”

(A single, extremely enthusiastic audience member applauding.)

Okay.

(Laughter.)

I didn’t do it at first, right? She came home from work, she would be like, “Ugh, I hate working with Eric! Eric’s such a jerk!”

And I’d be like, “Talk to your boss about Eric!”

And she was like, “(Shudders audibly.) Sometimes I just want to tell you my problems and not have you offer solutions.”

So, that’s what I do now. It seems ineffective. It’s a technique used nowhere else in the world. Like, you never hear like, “Tower, this is United 236; our left engine’s on fire. Okay, United! We cleared the runway! Come on back!”

“(Shuddering sound.)  Sometimes I just want to tell you my problems.”

(Laughter.)

Alright, thank you. Oh! Oh, I did wanna say one more thing before I go. Listen, I know out in the world is pretty rough right now. Things are pretty bad, and it’s probably gonna get worse.

(Long pause.)

Okay. Thank you very much. See you later. Bye-Bye!

(Laughter, cheers, and applause.)

Jesse Thorn: Scott Simpson! His show, again, is called Cheaper Than Therapy. You can see it once a week in downtown San Franciscooo. It’s a great operation. Okay. My first guest tonight is a legendary storyteller, one of the greatest storytellers in the world. He’s the co-creator and voice behind public radio’s Snap Judgment.

(Cheers and applause.)

It’s a narrative program about real, sometimes bizarre stories about things like a woman who brings bats back to life, or the 300 people who spent a week on a plane with Rihanna. They were just named one of Time Magazine’s 100 greatest podcasts of all time. I was named 101. I presume they didn’t publish the 101st. Glynn also hosts the amazing podcast Spooked, which just concluded a spooky season tour. It’s a show about the spooky and supernatural. Please welcome to the stage Glynn Washington.

(Cheers and applause.)

Glynn, I’m so happy to have you here. I’m so happy to see you.

Glynn Washingon: Awesome to be here. Awesome to be in Santa Cruz.

Jesse Thorn: I noticed backstage—and now again onstage—that you’re not wearing anything embarrassing.

Glynn Washington: (Chuckling.)Those are stage clothes! I—

Jesse Thorn: Where do you think we are, Glynn?

Glynn Washington Look, so I have been known to wear maybe a loud jacket or two. But—

Jesse Thorn: Okay. So, the jacket that I saw— Describe the jacket that you were just wearing for this tour, because I saw a picture of this.

Glynn Washington: It was bright and multicolored and awesome and cool! And how dare you question my jacket taste! Because I’ve got good taste, Jesse! It’s not odd; it’s a very cool jacket, but—

Jesse Thorn: You’re the first public radio host to have costumes by Bob Mackie.

[00:10:00]

It was like knee length; red, white, and blue sequins.

Glynn Washington: When they said red, white, and blue, it wasn’t that patriotic stuff. This wasn’t a Kid Rock situation going on. This was a real— It was a coat of many colors. It was to evoke magic. The tour was about magic. The coat was magic. And I, Jesse, was magic! So, how dare you, questioning this?

Jesse Thorn: (Laughs.) Are you a Santa Cruz-visiting guy? You live in Oakland. Have you spent time down here?

Glynn Washington: I have. The sea lions come near here. And what’s even more is Bigfoot is here.

(Scattered cheers and applause.)

There’s a Bigfoot museum that’s nearby. And so, yeah, I come by quite a bit to check on what the latest developments might be in the world of Bigfoot.

Jesse Thorn: Last night was Halloween. I saw like eight Bigfoots, two skeletons, and a minion having a drum circle.

(Laughter.)

Glynn Washington: Santa Cruz! No, I can’t come down here for Halloween, but I love Santa Cruz.

(One enthusiastic cheer.)

The whole— There’s just— I think this wash of corporatism is like— They used to pretend that Austin was still weird. It’s not. Santa Cruz still is.

(Applause and agreement from the crowd.)

And I love that they’re holding on to this thing, this blowtorch! And I appreciate it.

Jesse Thorn: And I appreciate it. I was talking the other day to a reporter from The Good Times Santa Cruz, and—which is like a local alternative newspaper. And he was asking me like, “What about being at KZSC in Santa Cruz when you were younger made it special for you? Like, did someone teach you something special?”

And I was like, “The honest truth is no one taught us anything. Other than like what to do when the Emergency Alert System broadcast goes off. But also, like when we decided to have a long conversation with a whale sounds record, no one thought that was a problem.” (Laughs.)

Glynn Washington: Which is so awesome!

Jesse Thorn: Right?!

Glynn Washington: I mean, when do you—(sighs). It’s like experiment itself is dying! Especially in our medium. And the idea that you have a station that’s still gonna allow that to go on? You don’t get good stuff unless you mix it up a little bit.

(Applause.)

Jesse Thorn: What is an example of a mistake that you were allowed to make on Snap Judgment when you were building Snap?

Glynn Washington: Just a little bit of history. Snap started around the same time you were doing some stuff there, Jesse. But—

Jesse Thorn: Yeah, I’d been around only for about 10 years at that point. But go ahead.

Glynn Washington: (Chuckles.) Well, but we were both newcomers.

Jesse Thorn: But we were both new to like going to public radio conferences, actually being on stations.

Glynn Washington: Yes. And I was very, very new to the world. So, what happened with me was I won a contest to have a public radio show. And I was— So, “Congratulations. You won the contest.” What they didn’t tell you was there wasn’t a prize.

(Laughter.)

There’s no like— In public media, every single station makes its own decision whether or not they’re going to air your show. And so, for me, they were like— So, I call up. I wanted a distributor. The big distributor (unclear). Number one, the biggest distributor is NPR. Called ’em up. “No!” The other ones was the people who had Garrison Keillor, call them up. “No!” other one was This American Life. “Hell no!” But what happened—

Jesse Thorn: It’s weird that Ira talks like that.

(Laughter.)

It’s called code switching, as I understand it.

Glynn Washington: (Laughs.) But I had watched this film on Don King. He was trying to get the Thrilla in Manila fight going on. And he said he had Ali when he didn’t, and he said he had the venue when he didn’t, and he kind of worked it all together. So, I called NPR. I said, “Look, APM and PRI are really into it. I’m giving y’all a second chance just in case.” And eventually they said yeah.”

(Cheers and applause.)

Which was ridiculous. So, we were an NPR show. Ri-diculous! We had no stations. No nothing. And they said, “We are not gonna help you. Good luck to you.”

To your question: it was the greatest thing ever, because we got to make our own mistakes by ourselves when they weren’t paying attention. And thank god! That first two years, we made every mistake was possible to make. Everything! Everything we could do. Including—(chuckling) one of the mistakes—

[00:15:00]

So, here’s an inside situation. There is a special sound that you put on for emergency broadcasting that only goes on emergency broadcasting things. That’s the only time you’re supposed to be doing that.

Jesse Thorn: Because it like triggers station—

Glynn Washington: It triggers all sorts of stuff.

Jesse Thorn: It triggers automated stuff to happen.

Glynn Washington: All kinds of things. We used that sound as a sound effect!

(Laughter.)

Whoopsie! Mistakes were made.

Jesse Thorn: I have a question about storytelling.

Glynn Washington: Yeah.

Jesse Thorn: Every guy that works in advertising wants to tell you that, at the end of the day, we’re just cavemen telling stories and painting buffaloes on the wall and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera; we’re all storytellers; we’re all storytellers; we’re all storytellers. When that person says that, I want to say, “No. Some people are artists, and you work in advertising.” Is there such a thing as too much storytelling?

(A beat. Glynn sighs.)

Are we at peak storytelling, Glynn Washington?

Glynn Washington: We are not. We’re at the lowest point of storytelling that’s possible to be. Because! The wrong stories are winning.

(Applause.)

The stories that are being told right now— And it is crazy. I don’t— I mean, I’m just gonna tell— I’m in Santa Cruz. I can say what I want.

(Jesse laughs.)

When my own mother—

Jesse Thorn: It’s not international waters, Glynn!

(Laughter and applause.)

Glynn Washington: But it’s my— It’s our people, Jesse!

When my own mother tells me that we need to lock these kids in cages for this, this, and that—you didn’t raise me that way! That wasn’t the values I came up with. Someone told you a story, and that story is so powerful to you that you’re telling me something that is completely antithetical to everything that I came up believing. And if that story was that powerful? Oh, we better get our story right.

(Cheers and applause.)

We better get our stories together. We better start telling stories that matter. And I get you on the advertising thing, because everybody— I mean, you’re a storyteller, he’s a storyteller, this is a story. But there’s two parts of a story. At least, I think there should be. I’m thrilled to be on basically every NPR station, and NPR is a smart station’s station, so that’s all great. But no one ever does anything because it’s smart. They do stuff because you’ve hit not just their head but their heart. And the only way you can do that is through story. This is the closest thing we have to telepathy. It’s the only thing that allows us to get inside someone else’s head. And the other side is doing a far— The dark side; the Sith lords are doing a far better job than the good people are, and we better figure it out quick.

(Enthusiastic applause.)

Jesse Thorn: What’s a story that was on your show—whether it’s Snap or Spooked—recently that you feel like you learned something from and changed your mind about something?

Glynn Washington: We just told a story—recently told a story about mermaids. Haenyeo. There are a group of women in Korea who can hold their breath for upwards of 15 minutes, and dive, and do their thing, and get very rare sea life, and bring it to the surface.

And I— Number one, I didn’t believe that, but when I—

Jesse Thorn: It does— It sounds like you’re describing dolphins.

Glynn Washington: Right! (Laughs.) Yeah. It’s crazy. I thought, “That’s nonsense. That doesn’t exist.”

And then you dive into the culture around it. And it was just amazing. The thing that always—(stammering) like, I wanna cry when we—every single time we find another microculture that I didn’t know anything about and how it impacts—how it elucidates—the rest of the world. And this was one that just really hit me. ‘Cause now these women are old, and they’re like, “Should we be passing this down or not? Is what we do valuable enough so that we want to teach it to our daughters?” And that struggle they had— I don’t— Like, if I learn anything, I learned about that whole thing.

[00:20:00]

Like, is what— Am I valuable? Do I have something to teach the next generation?

One of the stories that happened recently was there’s a snake pageant in Texas.

(Jesse snorts.)

Right! It’s a snake pageant! And I think this is a joke. This is the craziest thing ever heard of Uh-uh. This is dead serious. These girls know that their place in this community hinges on how they do in this contest to be Miss Snake Queen. What!? And the story just unfolds. It’s just one of those things. You don’t— You think you know this place. I think I know America. I do not.

Jesse Thorn: Do you think that part of the reason you are so committed to the idea of translating the universality of the human experience through specific experiences and specific stories from specific people is that you, yourself, have such a one-of-one background? Like, for folks who— Folks who have heard Snap probably learned at some point, but like Glynn grew up in a rural, apocalyptic, Christian cult where (chuckling as he struggles to word it) a White, rural, apocalyptic Christian—

Glynn Washington: White Supremacist.

Jesse Thorn: And like, there’s no way to have lived that life as a young person and not place a value on like translating experience. You know what I mean?

Glynn Washington: Yeah. The thing of it was— So, I did. I grew up in an apocalyptic, end of days, White Supremacist, Jesus cult. And you’re like, “What?”

(An audience member shouts something unclear.)

Right. And when I— And I was a true believer. And— I mean, not the racism stuff necessarily, but a lot of their interpretation of the Bible and everything else, I was really into it. I wasn’t like adjunct. I was in it. And in my late teens when I was leaving it, I felt stupid. I felt tricked. I felt like my youth had been wasted. I was angry. And I also then, at the same time, realized what kept that organization together. When you say that Jesus is gonna come next week, and Jesus doesn’t show up, what keeps you coming back to a room much like this? What happened? What do you do? What keeps us there?

What keeps you there is story. And I thought, “Oh my god. Story, the collective story that we told each other, made us go to those pews, made us give upwards of 40% of our incomes to these charlatans. That story did all of that. Boy, I wonder what else story could do?” And I’m not sure that I made quite a bright line out of it, but story destroyed everything—every community I was in. And I thought what it would be like to flip that power instead of using it for evil, what it would be like to use it for good.

Jesse Thorn: Well, Glynn, thank you for closing with the lesson that we learned from our conversation this evening.

(Glynn cackles.)

From Snap Judgment, Glynn Washington! Thank you, Glynn.

(Raucous cheers and applause.)

We have so much more to come from our special show, live from Santa Cruz. I’ll talk with Boots Riley and Adam Scott, and we’ll have music from Santa Cruz’s own The Mermen. Don’t miss it. It’s Bullseye from MaximumFun.org and NPR.

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[00:25:00]

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1. Keith van Straaten: Hey, I am J. Keith van Stratton from Go Fact Yourself, and I’m here with MaxFun member of the month, Josh Mentor—who has been a Maximum Fun member since 2016! Hello, Josh!

Josh: Hey, J. Keith, how are you doing today?

1. Keith: I’m so well! And thank you so much for being a listener and supporter of our show. What made you decide to support MaxFun in general and to support our show, Go Fact Yourself?

Josh: Jordan Morris on Jordan, Jesse, Go! has a thing that he likes to say, which is, “You know, you tip your bartender a buck a beer; you tip your podcaster a buck a month.” You know, I get way more use outta MaxFun podcasts than I do like Disney+ or Netflix.

1. Keith: Well, it’s something we very much appreciate. And by the way, when was the last time Netflix selected you as a member of the month?

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Josh: Thanks so much, guys.

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Transition: Thumpy synth with light faux vocalizations.

Jesse Thorn: Welcome back to Bullseye. I’m Jesse Thorn. We’re bringing you a special live edition of Bullseye, taped in front of an audience at the Kuumbwa Jazz Center in Santa Cruz, California. Our next guest is Boots Riley. In 2018, he wrote and directed his first feature film, Sorry to Bother You. He followed that up with the wonderful TV show I’m a Virgo. Boots has a legendary music career as founder and front man of The Coup, the fiercely political rap group from the Bay Area. He’s also an activist. He was a labor organizer for many years alongside his rap career, and he was very involved in organizing during the Writer’s Guild strike in 2023.

Lately, Boots has been working on a new film. It’s called I Love Boosters. It’s set to release on May 22nd, 2026. We’ll talk about that and more as he walks onto the stage. Let’s get right into it!

(Audience applause and cheering fades in.)

(Boots says something unclear and Jesse laughs.)

Welcome back to the show, Boots. I’m always so happy to see you. It’s so nice to see you.

Boots Riley: Yeah, no, it’s good seeing you. And you know, also you didn’t— I know your mom.

Jesse Thorn: Yeah, that’s true.

Boots Riley: You know, that could be a diss sometimes. “I know your mom.”

(Jesse and the audience laugh.)

You know, but I do know your mom.

Jesse Thorn: So, my mom was a junior college professor at Santa Rosa Junior College.

(Scattered but excited cheers and applause.)

Drove from San Francisco to Santa Rosa— Not an applause line I expected! (Chuckles.) There’s some Cows in the audience tonight! But my mom taught at Santa Rosa Junior College; would drive from San Francisco, where I grew up from in the mission, to Santa Rosa three days a week to teach. It’s like a two hour drive each way. And at one point— Like, her greatest triumph of her career was when she got control of the arts and lectures budget. Like, this was the most thrilling thing in the world to her, because my mom knows some real genius weirdos—the likes of which they had never seen at Santa Rosa Junior College. And she used to bring you up.

(Boots confirms.)

Like, she could like write you check for 500 bucks and bring you up for the day.

(Boots confirms.)

Did you think after you made your first film—a totally bonkers film—that you would get to make more films?

Boots Riley: You know, I don’t always think that far ahead. Right? Like, everything I do, I think of it as my last thing. Right? Because otherwise, you start making these compromises. You know, “I hope this money person likes me. I hope that this or that.” And then you don’t do the things you wanna do. And so, I totally thought I wasn’t gonna be able to make another film. I thought— You know, I had no idea that I was going to make that one! You know?

[00:30:00]

But I knew that I needed to try to make it happen. And I lied to people in telling them that it was going to happen, and I just kept lying until people kept jumping onboard.

Jesse Thorn: I mean, what’s amazing about Sorry to Bother You as a first film is not just that you’re like— You know, it’s not like you were a 27-year-old guy that went to NYU Film School or USC. It’s not even like you were a guy who had spent your career directing music videos or television commercials. Like, you had directed videos for—

Boots Riley: Well, I did— I was at SF State for film school when we got a record deal. And I think I’m still a junior.

(Laughter.)

And I thought that, “Okay, well someone’s offering me money to do music. I’ll do that, but I’ll just tell stories.” You know? And so, that’s why we have a few very, very long songs that tell—(laughs).

Jesse Thorn: And some of them— Some of them, Boots, like— I mean this very sincerely, some of the greatest story songs in hip hop history. “Me and Jesus the Pimp” and “Fat Cats, Bigga Fish” and some of, truly, the best narratives ever put on a hip-hop record.

Boots Riley: Thank you, thank you. And you know, I can say thank you not because I think it’s genius, but I just put a lot of work into those songs. Like, “Me and Jesus the Pimp in a ’79 Granada Last Night” probably took me eight months to write. So, I don’t think of it as like, “Oh, I’m just really good!” I just keep trying.

And you know, so I co-directed the video for that. I’d done like a documentary. But what I did learn—so, to speak to that—is, through doing music and everything, I kind of learned that we’re all figuring it out. And so, you know, I think had I finished film school and made a movie back then, it would’ve been very different. Because you’re taught all of this stuff about the authority of who knows how to do this thing better than you, or— You know, and there’s a lot of insecurity passed on.

Jesse Thorn: You’re listening to Bullseye. I’m Jesse Thorn. We’re coming to you live, in front of an audience at the Kuumbwa Jazz Center in Santa Cruz, California. My guest is Boots Riley.

Your first film is a film that is partly about sales. In addition to organizing, you had a bunch of sales jobs as a young person.

(Boots confirms.)

And like on the one hand, yes, sales—ultimate expression of capitalism, possibly. I mean, I guess the ultimate expression of capitalism is capital exploiting labor.

(Boots agrees.)

But the ultimate— It’s like the thing that you associate most with capitalism is sales. Right? But if you are a successful organizer or a successful salesperson, the thing that ties those together is the realization that you are not there to convince someone of something. You are not there to tell someone about something. You are there to find out what someone needs and try and figure out how to get it to them.

Boots Riley: Yeah. Yeah. It’s very manipulative. And I learned— I was the kid that, when I was 11, the teenager comes in the white van and picks a bunch of you up and takes you to some suburban neighborhood, and you sell subscriptions door to door. And quickly, I learned to figure out what someone was really saying when they said no. Like, what was the reason? What was the—? You know, and you start figuring that out. So, when I started organizing, at the age of 14 and 15, I kind of took some of that with me and saw that people were using different, you know, vocabularies and different ways of talking over each other.

And so, I really— I really started thinking about talking from a place of connection and moving from there. And so, yeah. A lot of it for me is mixed up and, you know, all over the place. I did sales—door-to-door sales. I did telephone sales. You know, we used to throw parties, and you had to have a dress code to get in. You know, like I had— My life was not—it’s not just one direct line in this way. It zigzagged all over the place into various crazy things. You know?

Jesse Thorn: Your new movie, which is coming out in the spring, is about the underground economy.

Boots Riley: Yeah. So, the new movie comes out May 22nd.

[00:35:00]

It takes place in the world of professional shoplifting. It’s called I Love Boosters, and it’s, Keke Palmer, Demi Moore, Naomi Ackie, Taylour Paige, Don Cheadle, LaKeith Stanfield, Will Poulter, Eiza González.

Jesse Thorn: And this is like— This is the world of folks who— You know, like I had a buddy who was in a street Gang in New York in the ‘80s called the Decepts. And he was like, “Yeah, what we would do is we would take the train from our house, downtown into Manhattan, go to Macy’s, and we would all together just clear off shelves and leave.” And there wasn’t really anything they could do about that. Like, they didn’t shoot anybody or hurt anybody or anything. They’d just clear off shelves. And then they’d take it back home. And that’s what got sold in a barbershop or what got sold in the neighborhood. Right? That was the economy.

Boots Riley: Yeah. I mean, you know, it’s actually part of the economy that allows it to keep going as it is. Because, you know, everything costs so much, and this is just a way for people to be able to afford it. And so, yeah. You know, like my other films, it maybe starts in that world, but there is more to it.

(A knowing group chuckle from the crowd.)

Jesse Thorn: There any… enormous horseman penises in this one?

(Laughter.)

Boots Riley: I can’t confirm or deny.

(Laughter.)

Jesse Thorn: Boots Riley!

Boots Riely: Alright. Thank you.

(Enthusiastic cheers and applause.)

Jesse Thorn: His new movie, I Love Boosters, is set to be released on May 22nd!

(Boots says something unclear as he leaves the stage.)

Santa Cruz’s greatest rock and roll band, here to perform the song “Splendor in the Grass”! Please give it up for The Mermen!

(Cheers and applause.)

 

Music: “Splendor in the Grass” played live by The Mermen—a playful, twangy instrumental with a classic surf rock sound.

[00:40:00]

 

Speaker: Thank you very much.

Jesse Thorn: The Mermen!

(Cheers and applause.) Santa Cruz’s own.

We’re gonna take a break. When we return, we will hear from Adam Scott: the star of Severance and Parks and Recreation, and so much more—and a native of Santa Cruz, where we tape this episode. It’s Bullseye for MaximumFun.org and NPR.

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Allan McLeod: Walkin’ About is the podcast about walking. It’s a walkumentary series where I, Allan McLeod, and a fun, friendly guest go for a walkabout. You’ll learn about interesting people and places and have the kind of conversations you can only have on foot! We’ve got guests like Lauren Lapkus.

Lauren Lapkus: I figured something out about this map, like how to read it.

Allan: Betsy Sodaro.

Betsey Sodaro: I had no clue. That’s awesome and nuts.

Allan: Jon Gabrus.

Jon Gabrus: This is like a great first date for like broke 20-somethings, you know?

Allan: And more! Check out Walkin’ About with Allan McLeod on Maximum Fun.

(Music ends.)

 

Transition: Thumpy synth with light vocalizations.

Jesse Thorn: Welcome back to Bullseye. I’m Jesse Thorn. This week we are celebrating the 25th anniversary of our program. Way back in the year 2000, Bullseye was a college radio show at UC Santa Cruz in Santa Cruz, California. I hosted it along with my best buddies, Jordan Morris and Gene O’Neil. Earlier this month, we went back home. We’re listening to a recording from our live show, recorded at the Kuumbwa Jazz Center in Santa Cruz. Let’s get back into it.

(Cheers and applause fade in.)

Alright folks, we have one last guest on this evening’s show. You’ve seen him on Parks and Rec. You’ve seen him on Party Down. You’ve seen him on Big Little Lies. You’ve seen him on the television program Severance. You’ve seen him in the motorcycle racing movie Torque.

(The audience cheers for each show but puts a little extra on it for Torque.)

Did you know he is also a Santa Cruzan who was once a professional taffy puller at the Santa Cruz Beach Boardwalk? Please welcome to the stage Adam Scott.

(Passionate cheers and applause.)

Thank you for making the trip to Santa Cruz. How many family members do you have in the room and in Santa Cruz these days?

Adam Scott: In the room? Uh, there are six. My dad, my stepmom, my brother, my sister-in-law, my niece, and my wife.

[00:45:00]

And they’re all here.

(Cheers and applause.)

There they are. There they are. Don’t ask me to name them.

(Laughter.)

Jesse Thorn: Santa Cruz strikes me as kind of a perfect place to grow up.

Adam Scott: Idyllic.

Jesse Thorn: Like, maybe there is a point as a teenager when you are done with it, but like as a 12-year-old? I can’t imagine a better place to live.

Adam Scott: Yeah. As a 12-year-old, it was perfect. Particularly in the ‘80s, because I grew up at a time where—when I was 12, and it was summer, both Back to the Future and The Goonies came out.

(Scattered cheers.)

And I could just go see them as many times as I wanted. (Chuckles.) Yeah, it really was. And you could walk around and ride your bike around town, and everything was safe. And I would imagine it’s still safe in Santa Cruz. I mean, it’s just a—it really is a beautiful place.

(A hiss from the audience.)

No? Oh, okay.

Jesse Thorn: No, they’re hissing safety.

(Laughter.)

Adam Scott: Sssss-safety! Right?

Jesse Thorn: (Chuckles.) Were you a beach person? Are you a beach person?

Adam Scott: No. And you know, the thing about—

(Scattered laughter.)

Thing about being, you know—

Jesse Thorn: Sssss-seashells.

(They chuckle.)

Adam Scott: That’s right. Being a kid growing up in Santa Cruz and then being done with it by the time you’re like 18—not done with it, but it’s a small town. The thing about Santa Cruz is that the surfers—at least in my school—the surfers were like the football players. And I could never really wrap my head around surfing. And so, I never figured it out. But those were like the—socially, those were the guys that had the most… power? I don’t know how you would describe it.

Jesse Thorn: Did you try it?

Adam Scott: Uh, no. No. I guess like— When you were in Santa Cruz for—four years?

Jesse Thorn: Yeah.

Adam Scott: And you would go to the beach.

Jesse Thorn: Six times.

(Laughter.)

Adam Scott: Okay. Would you—what would you do? Would you like go out and go body surfing? Would you go boogie boarding?

Jesse Thorn: Sorry, I’m waiting for you to say, “Read a book.” (Laughs.)

(Laughter.)

Adam Scott: Would you go get on a boogie board and start reading?

Jesse Thorn: It’s too cold in the water!

Adam Scott: The water is cold. But no, I went through like a phase of skim boarding. I got really into skim boarding.

Jesse Thorn: What’s skim boarding?

Adam Scott: Skim boarding is— It’s funny you should ask. Skim boarding—

Jesse Thorn: (Shocked into laughter.) Somebody said, “Oh no!” It’s gonna be fine, ma’am! I’ll learn what it is! We’ll make it through this together!

Adam Scott: Have you really not ever heard of skim boarding?

Jesse Thorn: No, I don’t know skim boarding is.

Adam Scott: It’s really— It’s like surfing for people that are afraid of the ocean.

(Laughter.)

Jesse Thorn: Tell me more!

Adam Scott: The water splashes in through—from waves coming from the ocean. And then once the water starts to leave, there’s this thin film of water still kind of on the sand. You throw your board, and it floats across that thin coating of water. And then you jump on that, and you kind of ride that for a while. You never engage with more than like 14 inches of water.

(Laughter.)

Jesse Thorn: One time I was interviewing a famous astrophysicist. I won’t say which one, but it wasn’t Stephen Hawking. And I said to him that sometimes when I go to the ocean and I look out at the ocean, I get uncomfortable thinking about it stretching out until forever. Like, it gives me an existential crisis.

Adam Scott: It doesn’t stretch out forever.

Jesse Thorn: So, I understand that intellectually.

(A loud giggle from the audience.)

What are you, this lady?! (Laughs.)

(Laughter.)

Adam Scott: No, I know. Or—“Oh no!”

(Laughter.)

Jesse Thorn: So, I said to Neil deGrasse Tyson, or whatever astrophysicist there was that I was talking to—

Adam Scott: Yeah, by the way. Other than Stephen Hawking and Neil deGrasse Tyson—

Audience Member: Henry Newman!

Adam Scott: Sorry?

Audience Member: Associate professor HenryNewman.

Adam Scott: Henry Newman. That’s who it was.

Jesse Thorn: Henry Newman. Associate professor, Henry Newman. Yeah. Sure.

(Laughter.)

Anyway, I said, “Do you ever feel that way about space?” And whatever astrophysicist this was—it was Neil deGrasse Tyson—just picked on me!

He’s like, “No! Why would you feel that way?”

And I’m like, “It’s okay to be scared of the ocean!”

Adam Scott: Yeah. (Beat.) Or space.

Jesse Thorn: Yeah. Did you ever get, beat up by a surfer?

[00:50:00]

Adam Scott: No! No, no, no. No. But I will tell you; I beat up so many surfers myself.

(Jesse cackles.)

They were all afraid of me.

Jesse Thorn: I didn’t know anything about surfing when I came to Santa Cruz. And I was the news director of KZSC. And one of the kids on—one of the guys on the news team— We had to do one reported news piece a quarter. (Sardonically.) Very high-level work we were doing. One reported news piece a quarter. And he was a surfer guy. Very handsome, like—classic.

Adam Scott: A surfer guy. Yeah.

Jesse Thorn: Yeah. And his piece that he went and reported and interviewed people about and everything was about how, if you’re a surfer and you surf wrong… other surfers kick the crap out of you and hold you underwater.

And I was like, “WHAT?!”

Adam Scott: Well, I remember hearing those stories too. Like, if you go to a certain place, and you get in the way of the surfers trying to get a good wave or something, you could get punched in the face or something. But I don’t— I never heard about actual drowning. Like, actual holding people under water. But listen, I’m not gonna disagree with your friend’s story.

Jesse Thorn: I have sources.

Adam Scott: But I just have to say that it’s hard to believe that the news director of KZSC was not a big-time surfer.

Jesse Thorn: I know. (Chuckles.)

(Building laughter from the crowd.)

I know.

Did you get to a point where you were like too punk rock or too something to be a Santa Cruz guy anymore? To live in a small town?

Adam Scott: No. I immediately missed living in Santa Cruz when I left Santa Cruz. It’s a really—again—an idyllic place to grow up. And then after you leave and go— You know, I moved to Los Angeles, which is a big city. And you’re constantly sort of trying to find the pocket of whatever city you’re in that reminds you of Santa Cruz. Or at least for me, reminds you of the feeling you get when you’re in this particular town. At least, I always am. I’m always kind of chasing that feeling. Because—not just because it’s my home, but there is a—or you know, where I grew up—there is a special feeling.

Jesse Thorn: What were the specific things that you missed about Santa Cruz when you left?

Adam Scott: There’s an ocean that’s right off the coast.

(Laughter.)

It’s far prettier than— I mean, it really is the most kind of beautiful coastline that I’ve seen. What about you? What did you miss when you left?

Jesse Thorn: I love the weather. I think the weather’s the best weather in the world.

Adam Scott: Right! Because it’s not— It never gets boiling hot. I mean, maybe like two days a year.

Jesse Thorn: Yeah. I describe it as wet Oakland, which is like my perfect—

(Laughter.)

Like, my perfect—

Adam Scott: And it gets nice and cold in the winter too.

Jesse Thorn: Yeah. And it’s warm but not unpleasantly hot in the summer.

(Adam agrees.)

But I think other than that, it was that all these things that—for me, as a very young adult—were embarrassing about—the like drum circles and all these things that we made jokes about, you know?

(The audience goes cold.)

(Irritated.) I’m talking—! I’m about to—! You know that I’m about to say I like it now!

(Laughter.)

(Militantly.) I still think it sucks!

But I find it like really reassuring now. You know? Because it feels trustworthy in a way. You know?

Adam Scott: That’s right. Yeah. No, but it also— It feels like a place that has not been sort of corrupted and ruined. It feels like, little by little, places are sort of—you know—getting spoiled. But not Santa Cruz.

(A loud “no” from the audience.)

No? Okay. Okay.

Jesse Thorn: (Cupping his hands around his mouth.) BOO! SANTA CRUZ SUCKS NOOOOW! SHUT UP, (chuckling) legendary—local legend, Adam Scott!

(Laughter.)

Adam Scott: I don’t know what that means, but I trust you.

Jesse Thorn: It means that there’s a Five Guys where Taqueria Vallarta used to be.

Adam Scott: Oh yeah! But that was happening when I was, you know, seven years old too. Whenever something like that would happen, it would—I mean, people get upset and stuff. And that just happens. I don’t think there’s any stopping that sort of thing. Right?

Jesse Thorn: Yeah. Is there—

[00:55:00]

Speaking of sincerity, is there a special burden involved in your road to your current celebrity running through Parks and Recreation—the sweetest and loveliest of funny television shows—and playing a sweet, sincere character on that show? Like, does that create the expectation that you have to be sweet and sincere in your life all the time?

Adam Scott: (Laughs.) I don’t know, but I know that whenever people that enjoy Parks and Recreation come up to talk to me, they’re always like you said. The sweetest, kindest, and really smart, engaged people and always a pleasure to talk to. And I think that there is a part of me that is like that character. I think I’m, you know, not quite as sincere and warm and fuzzy. I don’t know. But I feel like it the character is sort of a mix of Mike Schur—who created the show—and me, and then this other thing that he was reaching for and I was reaching for. And it was kind of this amalgam of all of those things. So, I think there is a lot of me in that character. And I love that show, and I love the people that loved that show.

(Scattered applause.)

So, I’m never feeling like I have to put on airs or anything like that.

Jesse Thorn: Were you worried that you were going to have the sitcom actor’s life? That when you spend that much time on people’s screens, that you are that sitcom character forever?

Adam Scott: You know, when it started, I was like, “If I’m typecast”—like you’re saying—”like, that’s fine.” I just wanted a job, and I wanted a steady— I needed a steady job and wanted to be on a TV show. I’d never like really been on one for a long— And so, I was like, “Fine! That’s fine with me.” And then once it ended, I did have a tough time trying to kind of get out of comedy or get out of, you know, that sort of brand of sitcom. It wasn’t easy to sort of try and redefine myself a little bit.

Jesse Thorn: Had you, before you got Parks and Recreation, foolishly wasted the money that you got from the movie Torque?

(Laughter.)

Adam Scott: (Chuckles.) That’s right. How did I foolishly waste it? Is that what you’re asking?

Jesse Thorn: I was asking if that’s why you needed a sitcom job. (Chuckles.)

Was Severance an audition or an offer?

Adam Scott: It was an— I auditioned for it. Yeah.

Jesse Thorn: What did you think of it when you read it first?

Adam Scott: I thought it was great, and my first— And I’m being dead honest, the first thing I thought when I read it was, “There is no way I’m going to get this job. This is way too good, and I can’t get too excited about this. I need to—(chuckles) you know, kind of pull my enthusiasm back as far as possible and just get used to the fact that I’m probably not gonna get to do this. But if I am able to get to a point where I’m kind of teed up or I have the opportunity to reach and try and get this, it’ll be that I’ve been earning—this whole 30 years, earning the chance to get to a place where I could possibly get a role like this or on a show like this.”

Jesse Thorn: Were you worried that you were not the right person or not good enough?

Adam Scott: Always! Always. But I just—yeah. I think— Also, if it’s a situation where I’m auditioning—which is eventually what had to happen with that—is that I get very nervous, and I never do a particularly good job in those situations. So, yeah, I was worried about screwing it up and someone doing a better job and—yeah. But got lucky here and there.

Jesse Thorn: I mean, it’s funny ’cause like— I know I keep bringing up the movie Torque.

Adam Scott: You—(chuckles) you really do! I mean, listen, it’s great. So, I get it.

Jesse Thorn: Honestly, Torque is a really fun movie. But like you—

Adam Scott: Wait, wait. We saw it one night in a movie theater together, and I was in the front row with a microphone with our friend Doug Benson, and we were talking through the movie. Right? Just like—

Jesse Thorn: Yyyeah. But still, it was fun! There’s a part where this turtle— It’s a whole thing. It’s really fun. But you’re a bad guy in Torque! You’re not a nervous guy.

Adam Scott: Well, spoiler alert, but yeah. I end up being a bad guy. I don’t wanna ruin Torque for these people!

(Laughter.)

Sorry, guys.

Jesse Thorn: (Laughing.) There’s three people here who post on r/Severance and 75 who post on r/Torque.

[01:00:00]

Torque, the movie from about 15 or 20 years ago that is a sort of second rate Fast & the Furious on motorcycles.

Adam Scott: 21 years ago.

Jesse Thorn: But you were a bad guy in Torque. Your pre-Parks and Recreation most famous thing you were famous for was being an antagonist in Step Brothers.

(Applause.)

Which you’re spectacular at.

(Scott laughs.)

You have a gift for being a douche nozzle!

(Scott agrees.)

Like, in some ways your career is people discovering that you were capable of seeming nice!

Adam Scott: Yeah. I don’t know why. It does seem to—(stammering) I did— That’s true. The Step Brothers thing was kind of— I kind of read that, and just—it felt right. Like, I knew exactly. I think it’s because I love (censor beep). I love watching them. I love William Atherton in Ghostbusters. We just watched it the other night. We watched it on Halloween. And that’s a great villain. And I remember as a kid watching Ghostbusters in Santa Cruz and loving that character. He was such a (censor beep). And just thinking it was really funny. And so, I don’t know. I just— I love a-holes in real life. I like them in movies. I just think they’re really, really entertaining—particularly when they’re overconfident and, in reality, quite stupid.

(Laughter.)

Jesse Thorn: When you come back to Santa Cruz, how does it feel to be back?

Adam Scott: It’s lovely. We rolled into town today and went to Tacos Moreno.

(Scattered but enthusiastic cheers.)

Yeah.

(An unclear endorsement from the audience.)

Oh my god. The best. And I don’t know if you noticed, because you live here. But there is— It smells wonderful. It does, right? When you—

Jesse Thorn: Yeah, my producer, Richard—who had only been here like as a kid to go to the Santa Cruz beach boardwalk—and I were driving around. And he kept saying, “It smells so good here. The air is so good here.”

Adam Scott: It’s true! It’s true. It’s pretty— You know, it’s the best. And the people are all nice and— Don’t—don’t hiss.

(Laughter.)

No, I love—you know, The Bagelry. You know, gotta go to The Bagelry.

(Enthusiastic cheers of agreement.)

Yeah. I don’t know. How often do you get here?

Jesse Thorn: This is the first time I’ve been here since I did a Jordan, Jesse, Go! show here… seven years ago or something like that?

Adam Scott: Okay. Okay. Well, you used to get here once or twice a year, I guess. Usually. Yeah.

Jesse Thorn: I have one last question for you, which is you are a former professional taffy puller at the Santa Cruz Beach Boardwalk.

(Adam confirms.)

(Excitement from the audience.)

Did I hear a “wow”?!

(Laughter.)

It is impressive.

Jesse Thorn: Do you have any like insights or knowledge that only a professional taffy puller would have about the taffy pulling process?

Adam Scott: Okay, here’s the crazy thing is I was 14. My job was to go down into the basement under the boardwalk, get a 50-pound bag of sugar, get a giant tub of corn syrup, put them on a thing with wheels, and push it into a freight elevator, bring it up, pour the sugar into a pot, put like four gallons of corn syrup on top of it, cook it over a hot stove ‘til it all liquified together, put like watermelon flavoring in it until it’s this kind of dense mass. And then, put it on that kind of—that machine that everyone goes and looks at. Again, I’m 14. And that thing’s— You could so easily get your arm caught in the taffy. Like, there was no one around! It was just me doing this.

Jesse Thorn: You had, Adam, just learned to read!

Adam Scott: Right!

(Laughter.)

So, I could make taffy right now with my eyes closed probably. And we just happened to have some corn syrup and some sugar.

(Laughter.)

Jesse Thorn: (Cackles.) Santa Cruz’s own, Mr. Adam Scott!

(Cheers and applause.)

Adam Scott: Thank you.

Jesse Thorn: Thank you, Adam.

(Loud, enthusiastic cheers and applause.)

[01:05:00]

Transition: Funky, electronic synth with a steady beat.

Jesse Thorn: That’s the end of another episode of Bullseye. Bullseye was created from the homes of me and the staff of Maximum Fun as well as at Maximum Fun’s brand-new headquarters in the historic jewelry district in downtown Los Angeles, California. They call it the jewelry district. But to be clear, there are also a variety of stores that sell designer perfume directly out of the cardboard boxes that they ship in on warehouse shelves.

Our show is produced by speaking into microphones. Our senior producer is Kevin Ferguson. Our producers, Jesus Ambrosio and Richard Robey. Richard Robey was on hand in Santa Cruz, California. Thank you, Richard. Our production fellow at Maximum Fun is Hannah Moroz. Our video producer, Daniel Speer. We get booking help on Bullseye from Mara Davis. Thanks, of course, to the Kuumbwa Jazz Center for hosting us. And thanks as well to our friend Cash Hartzel for lending us some production support that night. And a special thanks to the KZSC volunteers who helped out! That is Quincy Wong, Sarah Holzer. Ale Plyler, Dylan Estevez, and David Anton Savage—a true KZSC veteran, David Anton Savage—as well as thanks to KZSC broadcast advisor Richard Baldwin.

Our interstitial music comes from our friend Dan Wally, also known as DJW. You can find his music at DJWsounds.bandcamp.com. Our theme music was written and recorded by The Go! Team. It’s called “Huddle Formation”. Thanks to The Go! Team. Thanks to their label, Memphis Industries, for providing it to us.

You can follow Bullseye on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube, where you will find video from just about all our interviews—including the ones you heard this week. And I think that’s about it. All great radio hosts have a signature signoff.

Promo: Bullseye with Jesse Thorn is a production of MaximumFun.org and is distributed by NPR.

(Music fades out.)

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