Transcript
music
Gentle, trilling music with a steady drumbeat plays under the dialogue.
promo
Speaker: Bullseye with Jesse Thorn is a production of MaximumFun.org and is distributed by NPR. [Music fades out.]
music
“Huddle Formation” from the album Thunder, Lightning, Strike by The Go! Team.
jesse thorn
It’s Bullseye. I’m Jesse Thorn. Steven Yeun broke through as an actor in 2010 when he played the fan favorite character Glenn Rhee on The Walking Dead. It kicked off a career that’s long since eclipsed his time on that show, though. He was in Okja, Sorry to Bother You, and he’s starring in the new movie, Minari. Minari is set in the 1980s. It tells the story of the Yis—a Korean American family that moves from California to rural Arkansas to grow vegetables. As time goes on, the family struggles. Their well runs dry. Vendors cancel their orders. But their bond grows stronger. It’s worth mentioning too that Minari currently has a 99% Fresh rating on Rotten Tomatoes, which is no small feat. When I talked to Steven Yeun in 2018, he was in another critically acclaimed film—one of my favorites of the past few years—Burning. It’s a sort of thriller. Lee Chang-dong is the director and writer. It’s set in South Korea and tells the story of a dark, strange love triangle. The protagonist, Jong-su, is a working-class guy who lives in a rural area outside Seoul. One day when he’s in the city, he meets Hae-mi, a girl from back home. They connect, go on a date, start hanging out. They aren’t exactly boyfriend/girlfriend, but you can tell that Jong-su is kind of infatuated with her. Things change when she comes back from a trip abroad. She shows up at the airport with Ben. That’s Steven’s character. Ben is handsome and rich. It’s not clear where his money comes from. As Hae-mi starts to spend more time with Ben, hints start to drop that Ben has a darker side. [Music fades in.] I don’t wanna give away too much, so let’s leave it there and get into my interview with the wonderful Steven Yeun.
music
Bright, airy, cheerful synth.
jesse
Steven Yeun, welcome to Bullseye. It’s nice to have you on the show.
steven yeun
Thank you for having me.
jesse
You grew up in Detroit, Michigan. [Steven confirms.] What was Detroit, Michigan like when you were growing up?
steven
I grew up in the suburbs of Detroit, Michigan. I got to visit Detroit every week because my folks owned a beauty supply on Woodward, downtown—right across the street from the Sears building, which eventually got demolished. Detroit was like—at that time—the place you don’t go to. Or rather the place that, you know, your immigrant parents work and that’s kind of how I saw it while I lived in the bustling, dry metrop—or the suburban metropolis known as Troy. It was quiet, grassy. Lotta shopping. And just running around outside. That’s mostly what it was.
jesse
What kind of running around outside? I mean, like, skateboarding in a cul-de-sac or something?
steven
I wish. I wish I was that cool. Actually, um—it was a lot of—
jesse
[Laughing.] What could be cooler?!
steven
Yeees! [Laughs.] Yeah, I was pretty not cool. Hockey? Street hockey. Football. Soccer. Baseball. It was just pre-internet life, which I can barely remember.
jesse
It is—I mean, like, we’re a similar age and it is odd to think that there is a demarcation in your life before and after you could just go on the computer and just stay there for five hours. [Chuckles.]
steven
Oooh, yeah! Or, like, when all book reports looked exactly the same, ‘cause it was all off the Encarta’95 disc? You know what I mean? [They laugh.] Like, it was just Britannica or Encarta and, you know, now it’s, like, people’s opinions. [They chuckle.]
jesse
I think they steal from more specific sources, now. Primarily.
steven
Of course, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And now we know that those collections of information were slightly tainted.
jesse
Well, there was a time, I think, when the promise of the computer was that you could add a color photograph to your report.
steven
[Giggling.] Y-y-yeah! That’s really all it was!
jesse
And that would launch you onto the honor roll.
steven
Yeah! Or, like, you get one of those dissolving fades on your video project that you had to do. [They laugh.] And that was mostly the rich kids that got to do those little things, ‘cause their parents have those techs. But [clicks teeth], yeah, no. Different times.
jesse
Did you grow up in—I mean, you went to church. Did you go to a Korean American church?
steven
Yes, I did. Mm-hm.
jesse
So, did you grow up in a Korean American community or did you, like—how much of your life was defined by your parents’ Korean-ness and how much of your life was miscellaneous, suburban Midwesterner?
steven
Umm, I led a very dualistic life. You know. I trace it back nowadays and think about immigration and I had some stories from the past where it was like, “Ooh, I remember getting dragged kicking and screaming to class every single day when I was kindergarten. And then they just sat me down with Play-Doh.” I remember my dad telling me my first word—English words were, “What does ‘don’t cry’ mean?” And, you know, they would just become like funny myths or like ideas or stories that you tell yourself and—to give yourself a backstory, but then like you really process that in your adult age and you’re like, “Maybe that was messed up. Like, maybe that was really traumatic, and I didn’t know how to deal.” But I do remember that—I think it connects, is that made me so scared that I desired to be part of, you know—what was popular and normal—which was, you know, white suburban culture. And then I had this other portion—which was church friends—and that was where it felt like family, felt comfortable, felt like myself.
jesse
Were you aware of the difference between—I mean, I presume that you had peer in school who were, you know, going to Young Life or whatever? [Steven confirms.] Like, Christian youth groups and stuff. Like, were you—were you aware of the difference between your world of Christian youth culture and their world of Christian youth culture?
steven
Well, you know, I don’t know if I was that aware until we went to a massive Young Life conference. And it was one of those huuuge church retreats where, like, there’s like—I don’t know, a hundred youth groups from a hundred different churches and we were the only Korean one that went. And I remember getting a couple, you know, kid racist things. Like, you know, seeing that the bus was—had Korean letters on it so, you know, people do the whole, like, “ching-chong” thing or whatever. But I don’t—you know, it wasn’t too bad, ‘cause it was still Christian. They were trying to keep it cool. [Laughs.] But the funniest part of that was, like, we did distinctly feel out of place and then it all culminated to winning the broomball championship. And we won that [censored]! Like, we won it. We went—lost our first game, got dropped down to the loser tier and then worked our way back up to a final penalty hit—penalty shot where this—one of my friends at church, Danny Kim, he hit this amazing shot that, like—he chipped it, so it went over the goalkeeper and right over his shoulder into the goal and we went ballistic. And I think they respected us after that. [Giggles.]
jesse
I feel like that was the Korean—suburban Detroit’s Korean American population’s version of the—you know, what was that? 1984 USA versus the USSR hockey game?
steven
[Laughs.] Yes. That’s exactly right. [Jesse chuckles.] Uh, it was peak, peak life, I think. [They laugh.]
jesse
You live here in Los Angeles, right? [Steven confirms several times.] And you also have a brother who lives here in Los Angeles, has a restaurant not that far from here, in Koreatown. What is it like for you to see the particular kind of Korean American experience that exists here in Los Angeles, where there are places where there are many fully independent worlds of upper middle-class Korean and Korean American people both, like, Koreans living in America who might not identify themselves even as American? And immigrants who have upper-class lives that are majority Korean. Like, they’re living in a Korean American world. What’s that like for you to see as an adult, as a guy who came here when you were in your mid/late twenties?
steven
Well, I mean like sometimes you’ll meet kids from Hawaii or SoCal. Korean kids. Or even the Bay. And they’re just unlocked, you know. Or they’re normal. Umm. They don’t have this image of Korean American or Asian American that they’re kind of acquiescing to. You know, I’m from Michigan and while I didn’t experience intense, overt racism, I experienced more like, “I’m projecting onto you the space that you’re allowed to inhabit and it’s this big. And I won’t objectively tell it to you, but you’ll feel it in fear, and you’ll feel it in the way that we treat you in, like, a very small, subtle way.” So, you all of a sudden find yourself—you know, saying like, “Oh! Like, I like… violin.” And you’re like, “I don’t really like violin, but I’m pretty much—I think I’m supposed to like violin.” Or you go, “I can’t be on the football team, but I can be on the tennis team.” And you’re like, “Oh, yeah. I like tennis.” And you make all these cognitively dissonant decisions for yourself and you tell yourself and you convince yourself that, like, these are decisions that are coming from you and they’re truthful, honest decisions that you yourself had complete agency over. And then you look back and you go, “Uhh, most of this was just to, like, fit the mold or keep safe or make myself predictable to these people so that I don’t get harmed.” Or that I feel accepted. And then, you know, if you’re lucky enough to break through that type of, you know, mental prison you set up for yourself then you have to do the work to rebuild, like, your actual being.
jesse
Well, I mean—one of the things is, you’re describing coming to terms with the idea of, for example, “Do I actually wanna play on the tennis team?” Right? [Steven agrees with a laugh.] But in rejecting it, you’re also make a choice that you have to deal with the consequences of. [Steven agrees several times.] Whereas I might be in the position to just [chuckling] not be into tennis!
steven
Yeeeah! Yeah. I mean, that’s what I would watch a lot of my—you know, I said this before. I did a story at RIOT LA—and I won’t speak for other people, but I’ll speak mostly—I mean, I can only speak for myself. But for me, I wanted to assimilate very badly. To the point where I even wanted something as dumb and benign as storage. You know? I distinctly remember being like, “I want storage.” I didn’t know—[laughs] there’s nothing special about storage! But I was like, “I want that! ‘Cause my friend Tony Hartman has that.” Like, you know, we sat by in his house and we were like, “Let’s play Nintendo!” And he was like, “Aw, I can’t play Nintendo. My mom says it’s in storage.” And I’m like, “Storage? What the hell is storage? How do I get that for myself?” You know? You want the—
jesse
[Laughing.] “How do I tap into this? This symbol of late capitalism!”
steven
[Laughing.] Yeah! How do I get access so that I can put it away in a non—you know, where I can’t access it very fast? Like, it’s just so dumb, but I wanted it! I wanted that. I wanted the dog. I wanted the photo on the mantle, going to Cabo San Lucas with my family. I want—you know, I remember teaching kids’ soccer in Chicago when I was just starting out and you’d see these, like, two-year-old, three-year-old kids, you know, living very nouveau riche lives. Being like, “I just came back from Turks and Caicos!” And you’re like, “Damn. I didn’t even know that was a place. And I’m 25.” You know? Like I’d never even set foot in that type of place before. And it’s just—you know… it’s this—overall, it’s just finding a comfort with yourself and that was part of my growth. That was part of, I think, my Asian American upbringing that, when juxtaposed to Korean kids that I meet in LA, who are just like, “Yeah! I’m Ted Kim. So what?” And I’m like, “You’re Ted Kim. Like, it took me a while to not be Korean Kid Number Five. And now I’m Steven.” You know? And then even then, they wanna nickname you. I remember growing up too, like, having a very… strong aversion to people trying to nickname me. I couldn’t stand it. Like, if they’d try to nickname me, I’d lose my mind. And I often wondered where that came from and in retrospect it was just, like, I wanted to feel like I had control over something. My name would be one of them. You know? But yeah. Small, like, crazy stuff like that.
jesse
It seems like the kind of sensitivity that assimilation requires to the expectations of everyone around you and the façade that you have to maintain to engage those in the right way is—you know, it’s like a major acting job.
steven
Yeeeah. I was awesome at it, early. And then you, you know—then you come of age and you unpack so many other things where you’re like, “If I went through this as a straight male, what’s that like to be gay? What’s that like to be a woman? Like, what’s that like to be Black?” and you’re just… then, you know, you go through all this stuff and—but just talking from my point of view, yeah. It’s hard, hard work to constantly put on a show every waking minute that you’re outside.
jesse
In Burning, you play Korean—that is to say, a native-born Korean. [Steven confirms several times.] And I think this is the first time you’ve played a native-born Korean onscreen, is that true?
steven
Yes. Well, technically you could argue that K, in Okja, was natively born there, but he is not. He’s fully American. But yeah, this is the first time I’ve played a currently native Korean.
jesse
Were you afraid to do that?
steven
I was afraid to do it for a split second, before I met director Lee, where I just kind of processed and I told myself like, “Hey. There’s a version of this where you say no to him, where you say, ‘I don’t think I can accomplish what you require me to do.’” But then after I met him and he gave me the blessing to be like, “I think you’re the person to play this part,” I didn’t think about it. I just was like, “Alright! Now I have work to do.” But I think that type of like dumb bravery comes from this one moment that I [chuckling] remember in my life where I was in Chicago and the dream—like, you know, you can’t make money in Chicago doing acting. You can try. Some people get, you know, really great gigs, but it’s hard over there.
jesse
It’s basically either you booked a 20-year long running series of Rallys commercials or you’re not making a living acting. [Steven agrees with a laugh.] There’s—that is the job.
steven
You’re either TJ Jagodowski or you’re nobody. No, I mean, there’s incredible talent over there but there’s not the opportunities. So, when you land one of those parts—
jesse
Like an industrial?
steven
Industrial, that’s what it is. But I did a live industrial. [They laugh.]
jesse
Like an industrial stage show? An industrial is a word for a film that’s used within commerce, internally. So, like training videos, often things like that.
steven
Or like trade shows. I did a microchip convention trade show where I had to do an industrial playing in the vein of Hiro from Heroes. And I had to do a 15-page monologue on the chip, which was made originally for someone who had ear prompter experience. I had zero prompter experience and it actually bugged—it was harder for me to use the prompter. So, I was like, “Screw it. I have to just memorize 15 pages of technical jargon.” And I somehow did it. I somehow did it. And after that, I was like, “Cool! I can do anything!” [They chuckle.] If I can do that bull[censored], I can do anything. So, when I did this role, it was just like, “Cool. I got the blessing. I just gotta amp up my Korean and then I just gotta memorize these words. Like, let’s go.”
jesse
Yeah, ‘cause I—one of the things I wanted to know is how much Korean were you speaking in your life before you got this part?
steven
Luckily my parents retained my Korean. We only speak Korean in the house with them. So, my accent wasn’t altered too heavily. I lost it a little bit, but it was—it’s easily—it comes back very easily. Now, where I don’t have a lot of information is just kind of nuance and updated, modern nuance and also just a deep well of vocabulary. And the ability to read well. So, Korean is very phonetic and so you can read everything, but it’s not like how we—you know, you’re supposed to scan a word. We scan words as we go. In Korean, I was, like, literally reading every letter. So, it was like a—you know, kindergartener’s reading ability. And so, just a lot of work. Just to, like—it was—it was very technical at first and then I just got through it and it became more natural.
jesse
We’ll finish up with Steven Yeun in just a minute. After the break, is there anything he is a crazy fan of? Like, does he have a Star Wars tattoo or something? It’s Bullseye, from MaximumFun.org and NPR.
music
Relaxed music.
jesse
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promo
Music: Fun, upbeat music. [Speakers 1 and 2 talk over each other and fade out as Jesse Thorn starts a voiceover.] Speaker 1: I can't hear myself, but I'm assuming that— Speaker 2: Are you plugged in? Is your headset plugged in headphones? Jesse Thorn: These are real podcast listeners. Not actors! [Speakers 1 and 2 continue speaking over each other briefly.] Jordan Morris: Hey, thanks for coming! Here's a list of descriptors. What would you choose to describe the perfect podcast? Speaker 1: I mean, "vulgarity." Speaker 2: "Dumb." Definitely "dumb." Speaker 3: And like... uh, right here. This one. "Meritless." Jordan: What if I told you there was a podcast that did have all of that? Speaker 1: [Gasps.] Speaker 2: No! Jordan: Jordan, Jesse, Go!... And it's free! Speakers 1 & 2: [Astonished] Jordan, Jesse, Go!? [A round of applause in the background.] Speaker 3: Jordan, Jesse, Go! Jesse: Jordan, Jesse, Go! A real podcast. [Music ends.]
promo
Music: Relaxed piano music. Peter Sagal: Hey, my name is Peter Sagal and I’m here to help you with the most pressing problem facing civilization today. There are too many good podcasts to listen to! Now, why not avoid that whole problem by listening to an extremely silly podcast hosted by me. On Wait Wait… Don’t Tell Me! it’s wisecracks about the week’s news, shenanigans, fart jokes, and general silliness. And doesn’t that sound pretty great right now? Listen to the Wait Wait… Don’t Tell Me! podcast from NPR. [Music fades out.]
jesse
Welcome back to Bullseye. I’m Jesse Thorn. My guest is actor Steven Yeun. You’ve seen him in Burning, Okja, and The Walking Dead. He’s starring in the new movie Minari, which is out now. He and I talked in 2018. How comfortable were you, as a guy in your mid- to late 20s who was pretty new to acting—in year two of The Walking Dead—when you were walking into the, no pun intended, the enormity of the fan culture around the show? [Steven affirms several times.] Like, it’s probably one of the five or so biggest deals in fan culture. And that is a huge part of your job, as an actor on that show. You know that you’re signed up for your—you know. You’re gonna be there for five or seven years if the show keeps going and they don’t kill you. You know? Like, you’re in. It’s not like a movie where you can not be in the next one. What was it like to blunder into that?
steven
[Sighs.] Oh. It was tough. It was—I’ll be honest with you, like, the tough components were just coming from a lifestyle where I was usually the most background of all background people. I mean, I obviously did work in improv to be in front, if I could. But on the daily, like—as an Asian dude, like, you’re not noticed. [Chuckles.] You know? That’s what happens. You’re just walking, and people are like, “That’s… there’s a thing that’s walking.” And so I didn’t ever know the feeling of being called at or called to. I remember walking into my Best Buy that I was at when I was living in Westwood, when I first moved here. The show had just aired its first episode. I wasn’t even in the episode. But the fans of the comic had known what I looked like, ‘cause the casting notices came out. And I walked into the Best Buy that I’d walked into all the time for the last year without any notice and right as I go in, the guy goes, “Hey! Are you Steven Yeun who plays Glenn?!” I distinctly remember that moment where that’s where my life changed. Where now I realized that the outside was nowhere to be private, either. Like, my privacy was gone. And that took some while to deal with. I remember going through some rough patches of just feeling imprisoned in some ways. Like, I felt like I couldn’t be free to be myself. Even though at that point I also didn’t know who I was anyway. And so, yeah, that was a—that was an interesting ride. Then you just get comfortable with it. Then you go through this process where, like, you accept it but if you just accept it outright and not question it, you can really just become a thing that they want you to become. And so, then you play to these things that they say you are. And if you don’t uphold those things then it’s dissonant to people and all of a sudden they’re angry that you’re not who they thought you were.
jesse
Well, you have an extra thing to deal with in that context. I mean, I know in my own tiny-scale version of this, like, I don’t have any problem walking around the streets, obviously. [Steven hums in agreement.] Although, in certain public radio enthusiastic communities…
steven
[Laughing.] Yeeeeah! Right on!
jesse
Park Slope… Uh, no, but I don’t—that’s never been a problem for me, but when you make work that is really important to people, you have to deal with the prospect of disappointing them. And I find that very difficult, but perhaps even more than that—for me—I find it difficult to be present for people for whom I’ve had a positive impact. And for you, as a guy who—you know, I mean, you were on the number one key demo television program in America as an Asian American guy with a romantic lead storyline. Like, you mean a lot to people who are huge Walking Dead fans, but god knows if you’re an Asian American guy and you are a Walking Dead fan—
steven
Sure, yeah. They might not even be fans of the show. They might just be like, “I gotta support this dude, ‘cause they don’t have many of us.” You know? [Jesse affirms.] Yeah, there was pressure there.
jesse
It’s hard to manage it inside yourself. Like, even when you’re face-to-face with someone. Like, it’s—somebody’s telling you the most beautiful thing you’ve ever heard in your life, but you’re also just dealing with the reality of the fact that you just went to work and did your job as best as you could. [Steven agrees and starts to speak but stops.] And you probably—you’re probably thinking of all the things [chuckling] that you messed up.
steven
Oh my god. Yeah. I have a running catalogue. I think it’s like this. It’s not that I was—I wasn’t messed up when people poured their heart out and when I heard truth in their voice. I could still tell when someone asks you for a photo or something when it’s, like, honest. But then there’s this other portion where it’s not—they’re not asking you for a photo. They’re telling you that you’re gonna give you—you’re gonna give them a photo. Because what happens when you’re invited to someone’s living room every single week en masse and at that scale and with that type of conversation around it, you are now property of that thing. You are now property to people’s visions of who you are. They go—like, even if they don’t explicitly say, “You are mine,” that’s the feeling that they project out. You can tell when they think you’re not a human, but rather this ethereal thing or this metaphor for an idea or even just a character. They go, “You are this character.” But—and those were the moments that really messed me up, actually, was the dehumanization of me. Because in some weird way, I had never even been fully human outside either, for myself. Because I was mostly just conforming to another pattern. So then I felt completely empty for a while. And then, you know, you grow up and you stop—you figure it out. But that’s where—it was a weird place. It was a very weird place.
jesse
Is there anything that you feel that passionately about in the world? I mean, like, are—do you have a Star Trek tattoo or something?
steven
[Chuckles.] No. Um, I don’t know why. I have some favorites, but I don’t know. I think my ego’s too strong. [They laugh.] I got too aggressive of an ego. [Jesse giggles.] I—you know, my grandmother, rest in peace, but she is the family, like, go-getter. And she was hardcore about winning most things. And, you know, I don’t know if that’s in me, but I definitely can relate to it in some ways.
jesse
I mean, if it’s not in you, you can—you can do it onscreen.
steven
I’ll try. I’m trying. [They laugh.] I’m trying.
jesse
Well, I’m so grateful to you for taking all this time to be on Bullseye. It was really nice to get to talk to you.
steven
Yeah! This was awesome. Thank you.
jesse
Steven Yeun. Burning, his 2018 movie, is really wonderful. You can stream that on Netflix. His latest film, Minari, is only playing in a few select theaters right now, but keep an eye for a wide release soon. There’s also a great profile of Steven in a recent New York Times Magazine. It’s by Jay Caspian Kang. It talks about Minari, about Asian American identity, and how Steven looks absolutely stunning on a video call—which shouldn’t really surprise anyone, I guess. I mean, I sat in the same room with the man and I couldn’t believe it.
music
Relaxed music.
jesse
That’s the end of another episode of Bullseye. Bullseye is created from the homes of me and the staff of Maximum Fun, in and around greater Los Angeles, California. Here at my house, I’m not afraid to say that I have a Grape-Nuts stash. I don’t know if you guys know about the Grape-Nuts shortage, but it is real. And particularly in a pandemic, you don’t wanna have to make a special trip to get your Grape-Nuts. This show is produced by speaking into microphones. Our producer is Kevin Ferguson. Jesus Ambrosio and Jordan Kauwling are our associate producers. We get help from Casey O’Brien and Kristen Bennett. Our interstitial music is by Dan Wally, also known as DJW. Our theme song is by The Go! Team. Thanks to them and to their label, Memphis Industries. You can keep up with the show on Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube. We post all of our interviews there. And I think that’s about it. Just remember: all great radio hosts have a signature signoff.
promo
Speaker: Bullseye with Jesse Thorn is a production of MaximumFun.org and is distributed by NPR. [Music fades out.]
About the show
Bullseye is a celebration of the best of arts and culture in public radio form. Host Jesse Thorn sifts the wheat from the chaff to bring you in-depth interviews with the most revered and revolutionary minds in our culture.
Bullseye has been featured in Time, The New York Times, GQ and McSweeney’s, which called it “the kind of show people listen to in a more perfect world.” Since April 2013, the show has been distributed by NPR.
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